Contemplative Prayers, S1E7

In this episode of The Being Devotionals, LaSaundra Gibson and Rev. Dr. Kurtley Knight explore various forms of prayer, emphasizing the importance of connection with God. They discuss personal experiences with prayer, the significance of short prayers, and the transformative power of contemplative practices. The conversation also delves into specific prayer methods such as centering prayer, Lectio Divina, and the use of prayer beads–highlighting how these practices can cultivate awareness of God’s presence. Ultimately, the discussion underscores the idea that prayer is a journey of deepening one's relationship with God, regardless of life’s challenges. 

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LaSaundra Gibson (00:44)

Welcome to the Being Devotionals. I’m your host, LaSaundra Gibson. On today's episode, we look at various forms of prayer, the different ways we can more deeply connect with God. Joining me today for our discussion is Dr. Kurtley Knight.

Assistant Professor of Spiritual Formation and Chair of Formation and Seminary Master's Programs at Portland Seminary George Fox University. Dr. Knight is also an ordained priest in the Anglican Church of North America, which I am also a confirmed member. Thank you so much for being here, Dr. Knight. Good to see you.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (01:17)

Good to see you, LaSaundra. How are you doing?

LaSaundra Gibson (01:19)

Doing great.  Dr. Knight was my cohort professor. We had a lot of classes together, spent a lot of time together with my cohort folks. So, so glad to see you on this side of things. I've graduated. We're done with all that.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (01:32)

Yes, you have graduated, but you should

also let your listeners and watchers know that you got the, LaSaundra was awarded, she's not gonna tell you all this, she was awarded the Dean's Award, right? But she graduated, and so we are super proud of you as an alumnus of Portland Seminary.

LaSaundra Gibson (01:46)

Yes, yes.

Aw, thank you so much. That was a really special moment. was really shocked. People kind of made fun of me. were like, you were like winning an Oscar or something. It was just this moment. And I just was really shocked. I didn't even know they gave away awards like that. I was just happy to be graduating. I was just happy to have that degree. So yeah, it was very special. yeah, in one of the classes that I took...

Kurtley Elliott Knight (01:56)

You should have seen your face.

Hehehehehe

Hehehehehe

LaSaundra Gibson (02:21)

you, it was so transformative in that we learned about all of these different ways. There was just like a buffet of ways that we could pray. And there are four ways that have been really life-changing for me that I want to discuss today during our time. But before we get to that, I just want to be really transparent about how I enter this space.

You know, I feel a little disoriented and confused about prayer because it seems as if, you know, God isn't really answering my prayers and I'm wondering, does God care? you know, I've been a Christian for a really long time since I was a child, but it just feels different this time. And while I appreciate the content, God, you know, because clearly I have a lot to say about this because of the timing.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (03:15)

Yeah

LaSaundra Gibson (03:16)

of what I'm feeling about prayer. I appreciate the content.

On the one hand too, I understand that prayer is about connection more than anything. And that's why I wanted to create this podcast is to really help all of us deepen our awareness and connect with God. And that's really the most important thing about prayer. But there is also this, you know,

Kurtley Elliott Knight (03:27)

Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (03:44)

need of guidance at times and we need things and wanting to trust in God's sovereignty and guidance when I just don't know what to do or I've done everything that I can do and wanting help. so yeah, that's where I sit today and I am just curious to know how you're entering this space as it relates to prayer.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (04:09)

Yeah, yeah, well thanks for having me on, LaSaundra. It really is an honor to be with you. Yeah, I'm entering this space in this discussion about prayer space where I'm both rediscovering

Or I should say probably deepening a part of an aspect of prayer that I'm kind of leaning into now I find myself pretty Fairly regularly praying through what's called the divine hours or the daily office these are good Anglican terms, maybe so that has really been a a

LaSaundra Gibson (04:36)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (04:44)

kind of founding and groundwork of my prayer life in this season and really the season of the last couple of years. And what I'm finding is that it's less about me. I'm finding that it's less about me. And right now I'm coming into this discussion kind of releasing.

my expectations somewhat in prayer. And so, yeah, that's kind of how I honestly kind of enter into discussion. And lastly, think I'll say is that, you know, I don't know if I'm an expert on prayer in the sense that

that we all struggle in our prayer lives, right? So like, I can't sit here and say, I have all these answers to A, B, and C, because I really don't. Because I think struggling in our prayer life, I don't know, it seems to be a part of the prayer life. Different seasons. So yeah, that's what I would say start now.

LaSaundra Gibson (05:33)

Mm-hmm.

Right. Yeah, different seasons.

Yeah, and I appreciate that you shared you're in this place of really connecting through the daily hours, the daily prayers, through the Book of Common Prayer, which is really foundational to the Anglican faith stream. And I think that's important. There are times in our life where it's just so helpful to have those foundational, traditional things that we can lean on.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (06:15)

Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (06:15)

especially in times like I'm describing where it seems like nothing is happening. It is more about trusting in what you know has been pioneered road of faith that people have walked on. And these are the things that they pray, these are the things that they said. And even when I don't understand, there's that trusting in what has been.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (06:24)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (06:41)

you know, that's what faith really is about, the witness of the saints who can testify of what God has done and being able to recall that in our own lives too.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (06:49)

Absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That's that that has been so.

so revolutionary for me in my own prayer life. I'm thinking about like right now I'm in the midst of discerning something and I find myself at a loss on what to pray and this Thomas Merton prayer and maybe I'll give it to you, could share it with your viewers and listeners. There's this prayer that Thomas Merton prays where in essence he says, I don't know where I'm

going. I have no certain, I can't see the road ahead of me and I don't know where for certain it will end." And he goes on to in that prayer to talk about trust in the midst of disorientation. And LaSaundra, I gotta say, as I'm thinking through and weighing this discernment, that prayer, like I go to the prayer closet and my words are little.

But the spirit has brought back to me that prayer and I'm finding that prayer has opened up.

LaSaundra Gibson (07:48)

Mm-hmm.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (07:57)

is opening up a sense of freedom within me and is providing me not only with a language, but with a sense of awareness and courage that I don't have on my own. So those prayers of the saints are really important and pivotal for our faith today.

LaSaundra Gibson (08:19)

Yeah. And you said something there which will kind of lead us into these four different types of prayer that I want to discuss about your prayers being, I think you worded it something along the lines of being little. You're not using a lot of words. And I don't know about you, but I mean, I think that's kind of most helpful, especially in times of disorientation or times of suffering.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (08:34)

Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (08:44)

less is more. I think my prayers at this stage in my life are definitely less wordy. And that's a good thing. And there are more prayers that are like, Lord, have mercy. I need help. This is painful. And I think sometimes we dismiss those short phrases.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (08:52)

Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (09:06)

But those are prayers and they're powerful. What do you think about that, just being able cling to those very sincere and I guess those are the sincere prayers because those are just prayers from the heart. There's no thought or intellect going into play there when you're praying those short prayers.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (09:07)

Mm-hmm.

those short prayers, I think, get at the heart of what we're feeling, what we're experiencing. And sometimes, and I think that those short prayers take the pressure off.

Because sometimes we feel as if when we're coming to pray, like we have to pray this long thing or we have to have this eloquent and so then we kind of gin up and we force certain things. And I think the power of an honest short prayer is just it gets to the root of what we desire. And then it allows us in the short prayer.

to simply to sit in that prayer and to open ourselves up for the potential response. And the response might not come in that moment, right? It might not come in that moment, and that's okay, even though it's uncomfortable. But it sets us up to sit in that reality and to sit with ourselves.

LaSaundra Gibson (10:26)

Yeah.

Yeah, think I was thinking earlier about Matthew 7, 7, that's a common scripture where we talk about, you know, asking and seeking and keep on asking and seeking and that scripture is often used in times of prayer where it's, you know, keep seeking God and keep asking and He will hear your prayers. And so hearing you say you may not get the response right away.

reminds me of that. at times, I don't know, it feels like rejection a little bit to me because I don't want to keep, if I'm going to keep asking and keep knocking and I'm not getting the response, trust is eroded. And now, now I feel rejected and now I don't know.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (11:13)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (11:18)

Let's talk about some of these ways of really connecting with God. And one of the prayers I learned this from one of your courses, is centering prayer, which is silence.

I remember in your classes, we started out with like two minutes and then built upon that was five minutes and then it was 15.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (11:35)

Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (11:40)

when I learned centering

it was such a bomb for me. And I realized the reason why is because I'd grown up, my childhood was pretty traumatic and my nervous system was a wreck. And of course I didn't understand all of this at the time, but so much fear from the trauma that I experienced, I lived in a constant place of fight or flight when you...

grow up in that environment, you are kind of training yourself to constantly respond to everything from that place. And so when I learned centering prayer,

I noticed things about myself

that I became less reactive and I have become since using this type of prayer.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (12:23)

Mm-hmm.

LaSaundra Gibson (12:26)

What are your thoughts about this type of prayer?

Kurtley Elliott Knight (12:29)

Yeah, I grew up, know, growing up in the Black church, you know, lots of... I'm good with emotion.

But, you know, growing up in the Black church where prayer has to look a certain way with lots of emotional response and lots of exhortation and lots of crying out, that has its place. We see that in scripture. We see that throughout the church's history. So it's not a knock on that. But I grew up with that. And when I found contemplative prayer through might have been it was probably Henry Nowen or Richard Foster. think Richard Foster's book on prayer actually years ago.

I had a similar experience in where the time of contemplative prayer allowed me to see things and sit with things that I did not see within myself. So like, I think the gift of contemplative prayer is one...

It allows us to sit and become more aware and to name the voices and the narrative, the voices in our head and the narratives and the stories that we're telling ourselves. So that's one thing. But I think the other gift of contemplative prayer is that we soon begin to realize that we are always in the presence of God.

LaSaundra Gibson (13:57)

Mm-hmm.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (13:58)

And so what what's needed is really awareness, right? So the idea, it's always interesting when people say, have to find God or God has to, you know, I have to get closer to God or that kind of language. And I get what they're saying, I understand. But the truth is far more simpler. And the truth is, is that God is already present.

LaSaundra Gibson (14:02)

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (14:23)

So the gift of contemplative prayer then allows us to slow down, to become attuned and aware to the presence, not only in that moment of five or 15 or 20 or 30 minutes in which we're praying, but also then throughout the rest of our day, because it slows us down. That's the gift.

That's the gift. so that's been my experience.

LaSaundra Gibson (14:55)

I love what you said about the awareness because

I can attest to that's one of the things that I've noticed since the past two years now that I've been doing this type of prayer regularly is this deeper awareness more noticing of God outside of the realm of what I thought was just God. Like you said, it's through out the Day. It's not just during this set apart time that I've set to pray.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (15:17)

Mm-hmm.

LaSaundra Gibson (15:21)

It just creates this awareness of being able to notice God throughout my day, doing the most mundane things. And so I want to walk through what it looks like to do Centering Prayer, and you can add to this, but for me, it is I sit in my favorite chair, legs uncrossed, feet on the floor. I create a space for myself. I light a candle because candles are just, ugh.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (15:41)

Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (15:45)

They just create such warmth and I just kind of create a little space for myself that feels good for me. I set a timer for 20 minutes.

one way to remain in that space of centering and silence is to maybe get a word or an image.

that you can focus on. It changes for me. Sometimes it's a flower reminding myself that I'm a beautiful part of creation. Sometimes it's a word like hope or whatever. And if I notice that my thoughts are starting to go into like, what am I gonna eat or what's my list of things to do today? I'll just slowly let those thoughts pass and go back to the image or that word and I'll continue that rhythm.

throughout the 20 minutes. What about you?

Kurtley Elliott Knight (16:30)

For me, it looks like lighting my candle. I light incense.

LaSaundra Gibson (16:30)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (16:37)

I light incense as well. It's another kind of physical reminder, sensory reminder that, at least in my imagination, that the prayer is ascending. So I light some incense. And then, so I sit in my chair, feet flat on the floor, get into a couple of position. And then I would practice...

LaSaundra Gibson (16:54)

beautiful.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (17:07)

I I practice deep, I try to take deep breaths.

I'd breathe in, take a deep breath, four seconds, I'd hold for maybe six seconds, I'd breathe out.

I find myself now in a season where my mind is so jumbled with stuff that now like and then I have some other things in my prayer rotation. And so I'll go like maybe 5 to 10 minutes of Centering Prayer and then I'll go into the Daily That's kind of how I structure my time.

I would say that all of that, so all of what we're talking about...

I think we should be clear for our listeners. All that we're talking about is a way, Howard Thurman says that spiritual practices like this one we're talking about are really a way of like moving things back.

But it's not an empty navel gazing, it's not as if we are finding God in ourselves as if we are God. It is to say from a Christian perspective, we would say that those distractions are moving away so that

we can be aware of the Word of God that is coming to us through the Holy Spirit, or if we're moving next to a Bible passage or something like that, or whatever a case may be, to the Word, to the Spirit that is in us and coming to us, and to the Word that is in us and coming to us. So it's not that we are gods or that we are connecting ourselves to, from a Christian

LaSaundra Gibson (18:27)

Mm-hmm.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (18:41)

perspective that we are connecting ourselves to the greater universe. No, it's that we are removing distractions away so that we can become more aware to the Holy Spirit and the Word that is in us and speaks to us. That's the goal.

LaSaundra Gibson (18:46)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

thank you. And that's why you're here. That's why the professor and the priest is here in the room.

All right. So breath prayer Breath prayer has life-changing for me and helpful in this season as I discussed earlier about the short prayers and how

I've just not had a lot of capacity. I've struggled to really believe that God is even hearing my prayers. So being able to just breathe and know that I'm connecting with God in that has been very helpful for me,

Kurtley Elliott Knight (19:31)

Yes.

LaSaundra Gibson (19:34)

Lord's Prayer, I've breathed that and it is powerful because the Lord's Prayer is, it's pretty lengthy, right? So you get in some good deep breathing, but I'll just, know, our Father in who art in heaven.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (19:35)

Yes. ⁓ that's fun. ⁓ I've never done that. That's fun.

Right.

LaSaundra Gibson (19:54)

You you find the rhythm that you want on the breathe in and the breathe out. So I like to encourage breath prayer as a spiritual director, as I meet with people one-on-one to help them notice God in their lives, I will often use breath prayer because I find that entering that space, people are rushed and they haven't even had time to pause as we were talking about.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (20:08)

That's good.

Yes.

Yes.

LaSaundra Gibson (20:18)

And so breathing

is a way to do that. then incorporating a line of scripture, that's praying. That's praying God's word through breath. And that's the greatest connection we could ever have to remind ourselves about God is that breath, you know, the very breath in our lungs is God. And so I think that breathing is a reminder of, is a really good reminder and awareness of God.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (20:24)

Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes.

Yes, yes, yes.

Mm-hmm.

LaSaundra Gibson (20:47)

because God breathed. yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so

Kurtley Elliott Knight (20:47)

Mm-hmm. Yes, yes, Ruach, the breath of God, right? Right? Yeah, yeah, that's good.

LaSaundra Gibson (20:55)

so that's the way of praying that has really helped me connect and bring deeper awareness of God.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (21:02)

Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (21:03)

And then the third

one Lectio Divina. How do you say it? Do you say Lexio Divina? It's sacred reading. It's a meditative way of reading scripture. And I know you love this one because you always do in some Lectio.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (21:10)

Now I say lectio.

Yes, I love this one.

LaSaundra Gibson (21:25)

So can you explain to folks what Lectio Divina is and what the different steps are? Read, reflect, respond, rest.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (21:30)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So Lectio Divina Latin, know, divine reading, right? So it's this way of, of, it's this way of reading scripture. It's this way of inhabiting scripture. It's a way of internalizing scripture, right? So, ⁓ so one, you would start by just,

getting still like some of the things that LaSaundra and I talked about, kind of centering down maybe for two minutes or so. And then you would just read,

Just read the passage through one time. You don't want to pick like a whole chapter. You can, but it might not be that helpful. But I would go to a gospel passage and just do a pericope. So like one little slice of the story of, I don't know, Jesus walking on water or, I don't know, it turns water into wine or whatever the case may be. And I would just read it through one time. And in that reading, LaSaundra, it's so critical. This is important.

We often go towards like points of application. Or if you are a theology nerd like me, we go to points of like exegesis. That means that we want to like break down words and do all this stuff. But when we, yeah, what does this mean? No, no, just read it. And then listen to yourself and just, just, is there a word or phrase?

LaSaundra Gibson (22:37)

Mm.

What does this mean? Yeah.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (22:58)

that sticks out to you. So you're going to read it one time, you're going to silence, is there a word or phrase that sticks out? Don't do anything with that word or phrase. Then you read it a second time.

LaSaundra Gibson (23:06)

Mm-hmm.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (23:10)

And then that second time when you read it, you look for that word or that phrase, and then you're to go into silence. And when you go into silence, you're just, okay, this word or this phrase, why did I perhaps, why was I drawn to this word or this phrase or this image? And you just kind of explore that internally. What, you know, does it remind me of a conversation I had with a friend? Does it remind me of some past pain? Does it remind me of something I'm carrying, et cetera, et cetera.

LaSaundra Gibson (23:25)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (23:40)

you go back and you would read the passage for again a third time. And then when you go back into that silent moment after reading the passage, you might like give a prayer right there and say, okay, God, I heard this or maybe I'm experiencing this.

or I'm going through this and then in that moment too then you're waiting maybe for a response. And then you read it through one more time, a fourth time.

And in that final reading, after you come out of it, you're just going to sit and kind of bask in the experience that you just had. That through God's word, that God has perhaps nudged you or, I don't know, invited you something or gave you an inkling of something. And you're just going to rest in that peace. Now, let say this final thing.

important. It might be that you go through all of that and nothing happens.

LaSaundra Gibson (24:45)

Mm-hmm.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (24:47)

And that's okay too. Right? Because none of what I just described is meant to be a type of, I don't know, a hack, a kind of spiritual hack.

to get to a certain place, which sometimes I think is what we want to do when we talk about spiritual practices as if they're life hacks. This is not a life hack. And so it might be that you read in this way and you get no kind of inspiration. And I want to say that that's okay too.

LaSaundra Gibson (25:09)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it goes back to what we've said throughout this time is that it's about connecting with God. And that has happened, if you hear anything or you feel anything.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (25:28)

Yes, yes, that's okay too.

LaSaundra Gibson (25:35)

we are all in different places in our spiritual journey. And even if you have been, if you're not a Christian, if you are, I mean,

Kurtley Elliott Knight (25:35)

Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (25:43)

These are ways of discovery to understand where is God, who is God, how can I connect more deeply with God. And this season in my life, know, meditating on a scripture or two and sitting with it is really ministering to me.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (25:45)

Yeah.

Yes, yes. I would add to that, LaSaundra, is that you take that scripture or two and you could sit with it for a week.

LaSaundra Gibson (26:12)

Yes. Yeah, there's no

time limit. You can read that every day. Or the next month or the next year. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (26:16)

every day, like for the next month, year. Like, I'm all game for like, you know, Bible reading plans. I'm reading through one right now. I pray the

day lectionary I'm going through. I'm all game for that. But there are some times, LaSaundra, where the spirit arrests me and I can't move past two or three verses for several days or several weeks. And that's fine.

Like, so it's like, like.

Like this goal orientedness to react this kind of, you know, we have to free ourselves from that and just allow the spirit to just work in whatever the way the spirit wants to work. And if it's two verses and you're in those two verses for 30 days, I'd rather you be in the two verses for 30 days than no verses, you know, no days, you know? Or like, you know, you go through the whole Bible in a year.

LaSaundra Gibson (26:54)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (27:17)

and nothing.

LaSaundra Gibson (27:20)

Right. Yeah.

we're now to the last of praying that you were so excited to share was the prayer beads. I've got my prayer beads. Yeah, this was another one of your classes where I learned about prayer beads and, you know, at first I'm like, what, you know, we're not Catholic, what's up? And hey, if you're Catholic and you're watching, I...

Kurtley Elliott Knight (27:29)

prayer beads. I've got my beads here too.

Yeah, my prayer beads.

LaSaundra Gibson (27:47)

You are welcome. We love you. But the point is, didn't realize that Protestants actually use prayer beads as well. And it's just another aid, again, it's another aid to help us in our connecting with God. And I've loved them. I made these myself, so that's meaningful. But can you just briefly share about the prayer beads and how they can be useful in prayer?

Kurtley Elliott Knight (27:47)

We love you. We love you.

Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah. mean, well, prayer beads are truly ecumenical.

meaning to say that prayer beads are not just like one denomination. They've been used by Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, other religions. There are prayer beads. We go back in history, which we learned in the class of Buddhist prayer beads and Muslim prayer beads. And so like it's truly like interfaith in terms of its practice. So we have that. But the way that the prayer beads work without going into all

LaSaundra Gibson (28:22)

Mm-hmm.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (28:46)

of the kind of technical mechanics, if you will. they act as yet another sensory reminder that grounds us in our prayer, right? That allows us to come back from our thoughts and to be grounded in the moment.

kinds of ways to pray with these beads, essentially you would work through, a particular passage of scripture with the 23rd Psalm where maybe it was on the Lord is my shepherd,

the Lord is my shepherd, the Lord is my shepherd, the Lord is... And then when you hit this middle bead, I shall not want. And then just hold that. And then you go again, the Lord is my shepherd, the Lord is my shepherd, the Lord is my shepherd. When you hit the seventh bead, I shall not want. So again, it's just a physical reminder of a physical way of grounding you.

LaSaundra Gibson (29:24)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (29:45)

in prayer through either scripture or other set prayers, or you could make up your own sets of prayers with these beads. there's, it's unlimited what you could actually do with prayer beads.

LaSaundra Gibson (29:54)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I love the sensory aspect that it's meditative, right? What you just did is another way of meditating on scripture. It's another way of quieting the mind because there's this repetitive meditative rhythm.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (30:07)

Right.

Yes,

LaSaundra Gibson (30:15)

So the prayer that I've prayed this morning was from Philippians four.

the peace of God that surpasses all understanding guard my heart and used a prayer from Julian of Norwich who was a, yeah, Christian mystic. And I love the revelation from God that she had about all shall be well and all shall be well and all manner of things shall be well. And so I incorporated that prayer along with

Kurtley Elliott Knight (30:26)

I know you love Julian. Yeah.

Yes, yes, yes, all things shall be well, yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (30:44)

it means four. So I just kind of combined and made my own little prayer because that's what I needed as a comfort. And so I just prayed it all the way around until I got back to the center again. And it was very meaningful. And so all of these things that we've talked about, Jesus did all of these things. He may not have had some prayer beads there. Maybe he did. I don't know.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (30:46)

Yeah.

that's beautiful.

Yeah.

He might have.

LaSaundra Gibson (31:11)

He might have, might have, you know.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (31:11)

He might have actually. He might have actually.

LaSaundra Gibson (31:15)

But Jesus did all of these things. Jesus understood how important

It is, and how important it was for him to get away and be still and be silent.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (31:30)

absolutely. Absolutely. I would add onto that, LaSaundra, the...

So even as you doing there with the p- with the psalm that you mentioned or as we were talking about Psalms 23, it makes me think that, you know, one of the things that Jesus- we're talking about some of these- these worded prayers or scriptural prayers or whatever, but we have to remember too Jesus prayed- Jesus was first of all, he was a Jew, and as a Jew, Jesus would have prayed the Shema in the Bible, in Deuteronomy, Lord our God is one. He would have prayed the Shema daily, multiple times a day, in fact, multiple times. It was a great book. I'm happy

LaSaundra Gibson (32:01)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (32:05)

the students read right now in the prayer class by Scott McKnight called Praying with the Church. And he goes through the ways that Jesus would have prayed. And one of the ways that Jesus would have prayed is to pray these set prayers. And so as we talk about these different things, whether it's prayer beads or

contemplative prayer or breath prayer, all these different ways of praying. I want to say that it's important to note that we are talking about some structure, right? Because sometimes we think that because we want to be authentic in our prayers that we just kind of, well, I want to be authentic and I'm just going to do what I want to do. And that's cool, but structure can in fact enhance freedom.

LaSaundra Gibson (32:57)

Mm, yeah.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (32:57)

So like what you just did

when you talked about the prayer beads, the structure of the prayer beads though, then once you learned the rules, if you will, and I use the word rules lightly, once you learned the structure, then you could innovate around the structure into this beautiful creative prayer that was authentic to you that nobody else would have made or created that ministers to you and allows you to communicate in this time and connect in this time of where you are in your

life but you had to learn the structure first and then you can innovate and be free. So freedom is not opposed to structure. fact, structure in prayer can enhance freedom.

the last thing I'll say is then what happens in your life, LaSaundra, is when you hit the moment when I'm walking on the trail the other day and I'm processing something, then the prayer that I've prayed so many times from Thomas Merton in little snippets in different ways throughout the last five, 10 years, then it comes back.

and the word comes up. So then what happens is we internalize these things so much that when the emergency hits or when the crisis hits, what does Jesus do? Jesus is on the cross and what does he start doing? He starts praying the Psalms.

LaSaundra Gibson (34:21)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (34:23)

My

God, my God, why have you forsaken me? It's a psalms that he's prayed hundreds, thousands of times. And so that's the gift. The gift is that the structure then allows us to when we don't have words to say, it's been cultivated so deep within us and it comes out and we have now we have words. Yeah. Yeah. It's baked in.

LaSaundra Gibson (34:40)

Yeah.

Yeah, that cultivating. that's so good. It's in there. It's baked in.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (34:52)

It's baked in. Yeah, it's good.

LaSaundra Gibson (34:53)

Yeah, so structure enhances freedom. I love that. I think that's how you said it. And just remembering too that Jesus talks about going to the inner room and

Kurtley Elliott Knight (35:00)

Yeah.

Yes, yes,

yes, yes, Yes, yes, yes. Yes.

LaSaundra Gibson (35:11)

That inner room is here. We can always go there. No one

has to know you're praying. Nobody has to see you praying. Even if you're breathing, they don't know that you could be praying or you're doing dishes. And this is always home. There's always that inner room that we can go to It's not something that we just do in the morning or in the evening.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (35:30)

Mmm.

LaSaundra Gibson (35:38)

It is something that becomes a rhythm throughout our day. And I think these different ways that we've talked about are just more ways to help us continue to cultivate that connection throughout our day.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (35:41)

That's right.

Yeah.

LaSaundra Gibson (35:51)

Thank you so much for your insight and just sharing so much. You really sort of brought more understanding and clarity to places that people might have questions about. And so really grateful for this time today and you sharing your knowledge about this topic of prayer.

Kurtley Elliott Knight (36:04)

Yeah.

Well,

thank you for having me, LaSaundra. It's so good to see you. And we're so proud of you from Portland Seminary. Keep doing the good work and ministering to people the way that you are. Thanks for having me.