The Vacation Rental Key with T and T

Episode 9 - Stop Using Your Business as a Piggy Bank and Start Budgeting for Success

• Tim • Season 1 • Episode 9

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"Is this a business or a hobby?" That piercing question from vacation rental financial expert Ben Edwards cuts to the heart of why proper budgeting makes or breaks success in our industry.

Drawing from 25 years of experience examining hundreds of vacation rental P&Ls, Edwards delivers a masterclass in creating budgets that drive real profitability. He reveals the sobering reality that many operators work tirelessly for decades only to sell their businesses for disappointing sums - all because they failed to maintain meaningful profit margins through disciplined financial planning.

The conversation with hosts Tim Cafferty and Tiffany Edwards dives into metric-based budgeting techniques that replace guesswork with precision. Rather than copying last year's numbers, successful managers calculate occupied nights multiplied by ADR, tracking actual commission percentages that often differ from contractual rates. These seemingly small variances can represent significant lost profits over time.

Team accountability emerges as a cornerstone of effective budgeting. Cafferty shares his open-book management approach where financial results are displayed for everyone - even maintenance techs who discover they can contribute by choosing cheaper gas stations or reducing hardware store visits. Edwards recommends specific performance metrics for different departments, with maintenance measured on work order completion and reservations teams on conversion rates.

For optimal financial health, the experts suggest keeping payroll under 20% of gross revenue (ideally 15-16%) and marketing expenses between 2-4%. Many companies that expanded during peak pandemic demand haven't properly adjusted as the market normalized, maintaining costly overhead against reduced revenue.

Whether you're creating your first formal budget or refining your approach, this candid conversation provides the blueprint for transforming your vacation rental business from a break-even operation into a profitable enterprise with genuine long-term value.

Take control of your financial future - subscribe now and share this episode with fellow vacation rental professionals who deserve more from their hard work.

Speaker 1:

You're listening to the Vacation Rental Key with T&T, the podcast for vacation rental managers by vacation rental managers. I'm Tim Cafferty and I manage two companies, one in Virginia and one in North Carolina. I'm one of the two T's.

Speaker 3:

And I'm the other, T Tiffany Edwards, born and raised in the vacation rental business. I help manage our family businesses from Key West all the way to Kauai.

Speaker 1:

In the next 30 minutes we're going to give you our keys to success in the vacation rental business, to success in the vacation rental business.

Speaker 3:

Welcome back, guys, to another great episode of the Vacation Rental Keys with TNT. I'm one of the T's, Tiffany.

Speaker 1:

And I'm the other T Tim, and we'll just see how great this episode is, but we have spared no expense today to have an expert in our midst, Tiffany And's very difficult to nail down in extreme high demand but luckily we have a little bit of a pull One of the absolute best experts in terms of budgeting and accounting in the vacation rental industry.

Speaker 3:

We do have Ben Edwards with us today and I would love, ben, if you'd introduce yourself and give a little background about why you're so great at budgeting.

Speaker 2:

Well, thank you, TNT, Appreciate being included. I think it's out there that, Tim, you and I have worked together. I guess May of this year was my 25th year in the vacation rental industry and you precede me by just a few years, right, A few. We've been friends for 25 years and Tiffany and I have only been friends for about 15 years Legally Legally, yeah. So Accountant by Trade started out as a staff accountant.

Speaker 2:

I believe that accounting is the basis for business, or at least that's what my dad forced me to be, and it's turned out okay. Seemed to feed my family all right, but as a staff accountant doing internal audit, a lot of M&A work, pre and post acquisition operational audits, it really gave me a good understanding of the drivers at least the financial drivers in a vacation rental business. So we really try to make fact-based decisions using financial data in our businesses, because it's a completely different industry than what I grew up in and what you were in the middle of when we met Tim. I mean it was set it and forget it. Your marketing program was which ad are you going to put in Southern Living? Now it's really dynamic and you might think about an ROI for every dollar you spend, it needs to bring six or seven dollars back to you. So we're really a financially focused business.

Speaker 2:

Here. At Town Vacations I serve as its managing director. Of course, Tiffany oversees a family portfolio of Weatherby affiliated companies, so we I think from a vacation rental perspective, we've got every corner covered at this point.

Speaker 1:

So, yes, we go back a long way. I remember you questioning me as Mr Cafferty back in the early days. Can you explain the item 14 here to me? Well, no, actually I can't. I just stood in there I didn't think anybody would notice. But Ben notices and he cut through some smoke pretty quickly. But for our folks who are out there, some of them don't even have a budget. For our folks who are out there, some of them don't even have a budget, ben, which is shocking to the three of us, but it is rampant in our industry. What do you think are the fundamentals of someone who is trying to begin a budget?

Speaker 2:

Well, so, first off, you've got to get out of your own way. You know, vacation rental manager. If you were to think about that at a macro level, vacation rental managers are great at shaking hands, kissing babies, signing up properties. They want to do the fun stuff and it's not fun. I'm here to tell you it's not fun. But what's equally as not fun or ultimately disappointing is back when we did a lot of M&A work is I would come in and I would meet with you and you'd say I'm ready to exit my business. And I would look at your business and say, oh okay, you make $300,000 a year in your business and you've worked for 30 years for a $1.5 million transaction. That's okay, but your take home on that sub 1.2,.

Speaker 2:

The budget is there not to constrain the business but to keep you from going hard wild at the VMA vendor showcase and buy every shiny thing that's in there. You have to be diligently focused on managing your business so that you have a material, meaningful profit. The key to the business, from my perspective, is your service to owners and guests. That's what we're about. We care what other people say about us. We'll put that on the shelf for a minute. But if you're not making a meaningful profit, what are you doing? Is this a business or is it a hobby?

Speaker 3:

That's really important, that the key is to make money, and we lose sight of that because of the things that are shiny. I think we've talked about that in a previous podcast, but it's extremely timely now because I do think that, with the economy being different and people looking at things and seeing numbers a little bit different than they had maybe right after COVID, and having to make changes within their system to accommodate, ultimately, a profit by the end of the year Going even further, if you were to start your drafting of your budget, what do you really focus on? Is it expenses, the main? Is revenue the main? So, when you first sit down, what is the information that you utilize best to draft out those priorities?

Speaker 2:

Everyone thinks the budget is a derivative of prior year and it is to a certain extent, but not at the top line level. Just because you did $5 million of gross rental revenue last year doesn't mean you put $5 million in the 2026 budget. We build the budget from the bottom up. In town we're driving two things every day. We're driving occupancy or ADR and it says occupied nights multiplied by ADR, that gets to the gross rental revenue budget. So we take the occupied nights by month and we multiply it by the ADR, that gets to the gross rental revenue budget. So we take the occupied nights by month and we multiply it by the ADR and we make assumptions Like if we think we've got increased net available nights, we might extrapolate the same occupancy percentage over the new net available nights for the month of January to get a higher occupied night number. And then maybe ADR I expect ADR to rise in 2026 compared to where it's been and the calculation that produces a gross rental revenue.

Speaker 2:

And then the other thing that's a real eye-opener for vacation rental managers most companies, let's say, they get a 20% commission. They'll budget 20% of rental management commissions. Guess what? No one takes home exactly what's in their contract. It'll be 19.1, 19.3, 18.9. And that's where a big mess is made, because what happens over the course of a year is your commission gets purified because your frontline people are sweeping stuff under the rug, or you're taking it on the chin of the business because no one is really looking at that issue per se and saying, well, wait a minute, people are sweeping stuff under the rug, or you're taking it on the chin of the business because no one is really looking at that issue per se and saying, well, wait a minute, time out. Do we really have to give back our commission for that stay in July?

Speaker 2:

Because Mr Cafferty didn't replace the AC like we told them to. The AC only goes down July 4th every year, folks, and when you've got an AC that's 14 years old, replace it in December of this year. Just go ahead and do it and they say, no, it's working fine, okay. Then go on record with them and say, look if something goes down. I just want to make sure that we made you aware. You understand, it's our suggestion. I mean, as a professional vacation rental manager, this is the stuff you're supposed to do. So when that AC blows up in July and you've got to give back $6,000,. Well, that $6,000 is coming off the owner's side of the ledger, not ours. We're keeping our commission and the owner's going to say, well, wait a minute, why didn't you participate? We did participate. Remember that hour we spent with you in December telling you to replace it and you chose not to do it. And, by the way, we're not charging you for all the time, effort, energy that we've exacted on this service order to replace and redo and do I mean like it's good business to make sure you stay ahead of that stuff.

Speaker 2:

And so budgeting appropriately for the rental management commissions is really paramount, because you have a cross section of expenses that are direct operating expenses, that are tied to those rental management commissions and ultimately the gross rental revenue.

Speaker 2:

I really try to look at my direct operating expenses as a percentage of gross rental revenue, because my owner satisfaction expense, my guest satisfaction expense, is generally 0.00 whatever of my gross rental revenue and I budget for that. And when I do have to take a hit I charge it off so I can keep track of it. I don't wash it out with payments to owners or my rental management commission because I want to see it and then I start going down through those other direct operating expenses, making sure that they're in line with prior year as it relates to the percentage of gross rental revenue. And that's how we really dovetail the correlation, have the proper matching principle from an accounting perspective of expenses and revenue, revenue and expenses. And then G&A is pretty well flat, like your rent is flat, things of that nature the administrative piece is flat, and so, at a macro level, for the non-financial manager, that's how we do it.

Speaker 3:

Tim, are you similar in that and how you look at it? I know that you're constantly drafting, redrafting and spending time with your team on a budget.

Speaker 1:

We are, and accountability is another thing that's really big for us. We go through a three-month process of budgeting every year. It starts in September of the previous year and each department has their income items and their expense items. It's all derived from the start. We always joke that the budget is driven by our reservations manager. We all look at her and go what's the number? How many occasions are we going to have that accountability? To make sure that is realistic and that we are going to be committed to get to that number is critical. That's right.

Speaker 1:

Ben, how about? I know, I don't know, I don't have any idea how many budgets you've seen over the course of your career, but what are some of the biggest mistakes you've seen of people in the budgeting process?

Speaker 2:

I think at a macro level, it's a lack of diligence and the lack of metric-based budgeting.

Speaker 3:

Blame that in a little bit more detail.

Speaker 2:

So metric-based budgeting is taking those occupied nights, that ADR and making educated assumptions about where that's going to be in future periods. I was in Southwest Florida and you probably know the guy I'm talking about, but I was handed a budget and said, look, this is your budget. I'm like how did we get there? Well, I'm seeing a lot. I'm more licensed place this year earlier in the year, like, oh okay, I didn't know the license plate metric really was a real thing. But I think at a macro level you've got to have that metric-based budget and come up with a real number. Because if you're not hitting that number for January, like we discussed, why are you not hitting it? Is it the occupied nights or is it ADR? And then you've got to go back to your rev manager and say, hey, what's going on? Occupancy is low. Why are rates right now? The entire industry right now is reducing ADR. Everybody trended off of 24 ADR and if you look at the 24 ADR you think you're really lowered your ADR. But ADR in the first quarter for the year was a lot higher. We made a pivot in March probably late February, early March last year to reduce a little bit, to fill up, and then we ratcheted up ADRs, so there's some misnomers in that data that you've really got to pay attention to. So metric-based budgeting is paying them out making sure that you dial that in.

Speaker 2:

At the same time you can look at housekeeping cleans and you could take them as a housekeeping revenue, as a percentage of gross rental revenue. But difficult when you're Tim's size or my size to do this at the lowest kind of denominator. But if you've got less than 100 doors you could actually build a model. Every vacation rental PMS can spit this out. But you can take the Cafferty Cottage or the Cafferty Mansion whichever one right or the bungalow yeah, bungalow. But you could spit this out on a monthly basis occupancy and ADR and look at departures and actually physically calculate out housekeeping revenue and model that out. So you really get a tight number. And what would be cool is to, as you tweak those, it flows through the spreadsheet. You want to increase housekeeping fees $7 a stay or whatever you know a stay or whatever and you get a really tight number there because the issue, as it relates to some of those ancillary services being budgeted, you're going to budget for them based upon the departure. You've had 492 departures in January.

Speaker 2:

Well, guess what? The defense doesn't line up with that. The revenue will, because the revenue is predicated on system closure, because at the end of the month you know you ring the cash register in the system, you pay your owners, you pull your money out of the trust account, et cetera, but your expenses don't correlate because your housekeeping company is busy cleaning units, they're not busy doing your accounting and they don't get that invoice over into February and you can kind of level set some of that stuff and understand where it needs to be, and that's one thing that your accountants really need to focus in on. That. The matching principle is a fundamental principle then generally accepted accounting principles, where you are required to match revenues with expenses. So if you're ringing that cash register in January, you need to make sure that you've got the pertinent expenses tied to that revenue so you have strong financial reporting. And that's another catch key, whatever it may be, that will help you have better month-over-month accounting and budgeting.

Speaker 1:

Folks, you're getting a masterclass. It's okay to hit the rewind button if you didn't catch everything, but they're getting some nuggets here. Ben, I have a question for you that is very self-serving. That is the accountability part of it, and bringing others into the process on a whether it be monthly, quarterly, weekly basis. I think one of the keys to a successful budget is making sure everyone understands their role in making us get to those numbers. Talk to us about what you've seen in the past, where you have a full staff engaged on the budget rather than just the person in the big seat.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I thought I did a good job at this. I thought I was okay at it. When I came over to town, I realized that there are some people that are smarter than me on our team and they are experts at not only holding people accountable but articulating the metrics in such a way that help the broader team understand the drivers of success. We are constantly looking at the lowest common denominator and managing small. On that front, I would tell you that in the broader sense, our team knows what they need to do to be successful, and if you're a vacation rental manager, don't have that clear conversation with your team. You're really missing the mark. You're not doing your job as an owner or manager because the goal is not to come in and like do good.

Speaker 2:

It's more than don't screw something up. You need to understand the drivers of what makes the maintenance department successful, and that's closure of work orders, that's billable time. If I'm paying you $45,000 a year but you're billing out $25,000, there's a problem there and we need to solve for that. Maybe you should spend less time at any hardware pontificate on which screw you want to use to fix whatever. How about we start ordering in advance and doing some things like that to keep the trucks off the road and keep the trucks going from house A to house B. It's about closure. I think it's Go ahead.

Speaker 3:

Let me ask too what are some other common examples that you see that are drivers like that that are pretty universal throughout the industry, where maybe someone isn't looking so minute into that accountability? What are some of those common examples?

Speaker 2:

I think there's hard drivers and there's soft drivers. The work order example is kind of a hard driver. Another hard driver might be your reservation conversion rate. You've got to hone in on that in order to produce the production. If you're not making outbound calls, that's another hard driver we can delineate between. It's a binary discussion. Did you make the call? Did you not make the call? What is your conversion rate? Same thing with the maintenance guys. That are soft drivers. Soft drivers are your inspectors. How many properties did you inspect today? Does that generate revenue? Not necessarily. Does it prevent additional expense? Absolutely so. There's a metric to the inspection team where we expect you to inspect X number of properties, fill out the breezeway inspection form, be held accountable for any issues there and close the loop on those issues.

Speaker 2:

We're great at buying 16 different softwares that overlap 16 different ways. We don't use any of them to their fullest extent. I'd say start small on that. Use what you've got and really help your team know how to be successful at the lowest level, not just do good, be great aspirational, because the industry as a whole right now. Some folks are better at promoting themselves on LinkedIn than they are running their business and I'd venture to say a lot of those folks are out there. They're throwing their arm out so I can pat themselves on the back. They're not the ones with the biggest number in the bottom right-hand corner of their income statement. That's where we are and that's great if that's who you want to be. I'm not knocking anybody in particular, but I measure success by what people say about me, my Google ratings and how much money I take home, and I believe that we do a good job. We can always do better of making sure how everybody fits in the machine and how they're part of making the machine go around.

Speaker 1:

And to that end, I think you both know and the listeners may know, I run my company as an open book management company. So we actually have meetings every week. We put the numbers up on the board and I have a story about one of our maintenance techs that kind of alludes to what you're saying there. Ben, it was Jason and he was diligently coming to the meetings, obviously not understanding anything that was on the board he's a maintenance tech, after all and he just did his job. But about four or five moves into it he came up to me and goes Mr Tim, I got it. Okay, jason, what do you got? I'm not buying gas at the Texaco station anymore, I'm going to the Crown station. It's 10 cents cheaper a gallon. You've got it.

Speaker 1:

That is an impact you can make on those numbers and pat on the back for him to do that. Then that also goes to how many trips do you make to Ace Hardware? Well, you made four. That's an hour of non-productivity. Have your truck stocked at the beginning of the day so you have every battery and remote and flapper and toilet seat that you'll ever need. Those kinds of things make a difference and that's the things that can really make a difference in your overall when you get the whole team involved in thinking that way.

Speaker 2:

How about taking a look at HostGPO? These guys are doing a phenomenal job and we're not using them to the extent that we can. We've got to stop the world for 15 minutes to be able to focus and incorporate them more. But they've now got a program with a Lowe's Home program and Amazon Business. How about taking a step back, running your work orders in total for the trailing 12 months and start segregating parts and specific work orders and things of that nature and saying, hey, why don't we buy those A4 light bulbs in bulk? Let's buy them in bulk, have them shipped in and then mark them up 10% more than what Ace Hardware charges and take the difference Like nobody's saying you can't do that and you know if the homeowner's happy because the light bulb got replaced or whatever it may be. Maybe do that as a part of your deal.

Speaker 2:

But batteries, light bulbs, flappers, whatever it may be, buying in advance, having a par stock, doing inventory in the off season once a month, inventory in season, maybe bi-weekly or weekly, I don't know what you do, but have it in order because vacation rental managers be shoppers, right, I mean, that's what it is. If it's not software, it's like. This is like miniature Walmart. It's all where Sam Walton family members here Knock it off. Buy what you need. Mitigate the trips to the store because you just paid somebody $25, fully loaded, to go find Tiffy. I guess, like they go into Ace Hardware and yuck it up. Well, let me tell you what I'm working on today. And should I use a stainless steel screw here, or should you? You know, I don't know if I want a quarter. I mean, that's just like that's what they do. I mean I would love to do that if my wife would let me, but we're always on a schedule. We have to be timely.

Speaker 3:

Speaking of being timely, the key takeaways that I just took from both of those answers is how important spreading out accountability through your team and having the buy-in with your team and so, tim, you incentivize by having those team meetings weekly. How important is it to offer a bonus, or include a bonus, to incentivize on keeping the budget exceeding the budget when it comes from a revenue perspective? And I'll even follow up and ask are there other ways to incentivize your team members to create greater accountability to the budget?

Speaker 1:

We didn't rehearse this question, but I think you know the answer here. It's critical From my standpoint. With an open book management company Ben, close your ears I have a profit share program where when you hit our quarterly numbers, everyone on staff gets a share of that profit to give them that physical pat on the back and they absolutely know what their impact is on that number every week. I think it's critical. You can't just talk the walk, you have to walk the talk, and that's how you do it.

Speaker 2:

I think I really applaud you for doing that. We have different derivatives of bonus structures from res to management or whatever. But the thing that's interesting is why wouldn't you bonus a maintenance guy on work order closure rates? You bonus your res agents. Same thing with inspectors or whatever it may be. I think there's different ways to do that. I'm seeing entirely too many vacation rental company owners not run the business like a business and the business is usually a piggy bank. There's not a way to do that in a commercial fashion that makes sense. It needs to be structured like a business. You've got to open it up in such a way that the business can be understood at the lowest level and again, these people know how they can be successful or accretive to the overall operation.

Speaker 1:

To your earlier point, ben, I think it's also important that they get that day-to-day recognition. So one of the things I have implemented here is every department has their own scoreboard right up on the wall. Number of work orders completed is right there in the maintenance office. Number of reservations goal, number of reservations taken right there on the wall. On the wall Our marketing team has photography goals. Everybody has a board. I invite anybody. You can come see our operation anytime. I'd love to show you around, show you our P&L. Come to one of our huddles. The vibe we have here is just so good and I'll stop, ben said throwing my arm out of the socket, patting myself on the back but it works.

Speaker 3:

That's how you get the Cafferty mansion and not the Cafferty bungalow. So one of my other questions, which I think is really important and more so because I've been a plus one to many of Ben's sessions and conversations as it relates to budget, and one of the most common questions that I have heard you get, ben, is what are the percentages that you need to look at for your budget, and one of the biggest ones is what is your payroll percentage? So I would love for you to talk through a little bit more of how you look at that, what it should be to your bottom line percentage in different categories and what really stands out to you that our listeners should be looking at for their budget.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, you say plus one. I was on the phone with somebody yesterday and I said, hey, have we met? And she said, well, I came to a get-together that your wife hosted and you're having, so I'm the plus one. I'm taking the time in this deal. As far as percentages, covid really threw those out of whack, but I think everything's been reset and it's really predicated on which region you're in. If you're in Maine and you've got a peak season, that's 15 minutes long. It's a different deal.

Speaker 2:

We want to be sub-20% on payroll. I really would like to be 15%, 16%, if I could. If you think about your overarching revenue, 20% of it generally is management commission. Maybe you get another 10, 15 points of fees. You can't have a 25% payroll in a 35% business because marketing is going to be 2% to 4%. If you're some of these companies that are spending 5% 7% on marketing, that doesn't work. Your customer acquisition cost is entirely too high. You might want to look at your ROI on ad spend, et cetera and make some fundamental changes. Outside of that, it's really nuanced. We're fortunate because prior to me taking the town hall, you and I had nine companies to compare against and I've seen hundreds, literally hundreds of P&Ls over 25 years and maybe a thousand Like I've seen everything. You can kind of measure it out from that perspective, but it gets more nuanced and more difficult to compare apples to apples, simply because the way in which people structure their P&L is all across the board.

Speaker 2:

I like top line as being gross rental revenue, that's under payment, plus management commission. That's it. And then we run a contra revenue account, that's an account with brackets around it, which is payments to owners and what falls out of that is rental management commission, and I can see a percentage of rental management commission to grow. So I constantly am watching whether we're at 18.9 or 19.1 or 19.6. And if we're 18.9, I can say what happened. Why are we there? Because those hints of a point on 20, 30, $40 million are a lot of money that you're missing out on.

Speaker 2:

I think at the end of the day, starting with your business working macro, setting up some benchmarks or goals, like Tim and his business do, and then working down from there, because every business out there has got three to five basis points of cuts that they can make and you're going to say, oh well, I can't cut these people, I can't do that. Look, there's stuff in your business and you're going to say, oh well, I can't cut these people, I can't do that. Look, there's stuff in your business that you're paying for right now that you hadn't used the last year. Get it off the P&L.

Speaker 2:

We were looking at a business recently that had 22 Adobe Pro licenses and I'm like there's no way. No, it's $7,700. You know we cut it $7,700,. You know we cut it. But like stuff just gravitates over time. And if you look at these businesses as a whole, you've still got the same business from COVID. Now you staffed up, bulked up, beefed up during COVID because you had this peak pandemic occupancy. You haven't retracted. Post-covid you got the same expense structure with less revenue and less profit as a result. So you need to think about that and start trimming the fat.

Speaker 1:

My last question category, if you will, is once you're in the midst. I've created my budget nine months ago. Whatever the case might be, it's clear that I misdiagnosed some areas. What's your thought on re-forecasting and re-budgeting as the year is underway?

Speaker 2:

I mean, that's something that we do a lot of. Our working forecast is something that we're constantly wrenching. I'm glad we've got a great team that does it, because it requires a lot of energy. I think it's fine to re-forecast particularly top line revenue and let it filter down. I think if you are savvy enough, you can dial up certain expenses in order to accentuate the revenue component. We, in certain instances, front loaded more marketing at the onset of 25 to deliver the result we wanted than had that straight line number across the year. I think it just really depends on how savvy you are. The budget there is there for you to deliver a meaningful profit and you to stick to your guns when something pops up. You've got to manage to the bottom line, and so I think that's where the fundamental focus should be.

Speaker 3:

So keys being budget is accountability and is there for you to make money at the end of the day. So putting in as many parameters as you can of making yourself accountable, your teammates and your staff accountable, and driving in that bottom line for this year and then for in the future, to your earlier point that you don't want to work 30 years potentially for that end result of the 1.5, that you worked too hard to not have a good sell-off. Any other keys did I miss Tim?

Speaker 1:

No, I think you just covered the episode in 45 seconds where Ben and I droned on for about 32 minutes. So that's excellent work, as always, but Ben's used to that and I'm getting used to it, so great job. Thanks for having me Next time. I have an idea why don't we dive into some of the stuff Ben was talking about the whole production of amenities and things that you offer and how you can plan on that. How about that for an idea, tiffy?

Speaker 3:

I love that and we can get a little bit deeper into the logistics of how you keep yourself accountable, budgeting and then making sure that your staff also follows that line of thought.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, Mr Edwards. Thank you, Mrs Edwards. Appreciate both of you and until next time, folks. So long, everybody.

Speaker 3:

Bye everyone, See you next time.