Metamorphosis with Max

What if transformation isn’t about choosing one identity — but allowing yourself to evolve beyond all of them? This episode is for anyone navigating identity shifts, questioning where they belong, or learning how to evolve without losing themselves. If you’ve ever felt torn between where you come from and who you’re becoming, this conversation offers a grounded way to hold both.

Today, I’m creating butterfly postcards in the studio with my guest Max as we reflect on the transformations that shape us over time. Through his story, we explore what it means to outgrow identities, face life’s challenges, and step into new ways of living.

Max shares his personal evolution — from moments of uncertainty to embracing new paths and passions. We talk about the tension of loving where you come from while also questioning it as it evolves and changes, and what it means to examine your roots honestly, without turning away from them.

We also explore the broader desire for change — not just personally, but collectively. What does it look like to move toward a world rooted in freedom, understanding, and real representation?

If you’ve been feeling in-between versions of yourself, this episode offers a steady reframe:

Highlights:

• Navigating global turmoil with love, resilience, and purpose.
• Embracing change as a rebellion against societal expectations.
• Living in alignment with core values like love, freedom, and safety.
• The impact of attention and intention on personal reality.
• The importance of conscious awareness in co-creating a new narrative.
• Personal stories of healing and metamorphosis through noticing small symbols.

About Max:

Max Lyman is a multi-passionate Massachusetts born, New York based software engineer. In his free time he likes to climb, hike and run — spending as much time as possible outdoors and surrounded by friends. He really likes the melancholic romance of rainy days and good books.

Fairy Tea is produced by Six-Two Studio.

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Fairy Tea is a deeply personal podcast where I share the raw, honest messiness of life, exploring how to break free from societal expectations and follow the heart’s calling. Blending storytelling, spirituality, folklore, and self-discovery, Fairy Tea is both magical and real, whimsical yet grounded. It’s a space to embrace uncertainty, face challenges without fear, and stay curious about the possibilities ahead. Through my experiences, I invite listeners to see that a new way of living is possible — one that is intuitive, soulful, and uniquely their own.

Instagram: @fairytea.podcast or @akayourfairygodmother
Email: akayourfairygodmother@gmail.com

Transcript

Sophie (00:00.354) Well, I feel like collectively we are at a very special time right now. And I think it's very fear-laden on all corners. of. Like a lot of fear plays into it and like a lot of fear is being projected into the future. Which is fair, but I think it sort of takes away the agency in a way.

Max (00:28.791) agency?

Sophie (00:29.806) Yeah, because no, the agency over what's going to happen with us. Because if there's a lot of fear involved, it feels like life is happening to us as opposed to us being active participants of it. And in being an active participant, I highly believe and wherever your focus goes, that's kind of like what shows up in your life.

we have a limited capacity of attention, right? Like our perception is limited by default. We can never perceive everything all the time, always. And so I'm trying to kind of like play with that a little bit.

Max (01:15.074) Yeah, I mean, it's focusing on the butterfly in the moment. The control.

Sophie (01:21.848) Yeah, and like connect with the symbol. My life has completely changed ever since I connected, randomly connected with that symbol.

Welcome to Fairy Tea, where we sip on the ethereal wisdom of the Fairy Realm and uncover its ancient secrets for healing, pleasure and rest. I'm your host Sophie, here to sprinkle a little enchantment into your everyday life. Think of this as one great unfolding experiment. An invitation to dance with magic, trust the unseen and let curiosity lead the way.

Sophie (02:09.901) It started out as a thing of like, like funny. Like I see so many butterflies and not like giraffes or elephants or whatever on the walls, on people's t-shirts as to too. I was like, interesting. And so I started kind of like documenting that and like thinking about that. And then like it reinforced that in my brain and I like spot them everywhere now, right? Then it led to like me.

feeling like they actually guide me. they, whenever I see them, I'm like, I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be right now. And this now I think I'm at a stage where it's evolving again, where I start reading it everywhere. Every book I pick up somehow touches on the concept of metamorphosis. And I'm like, it feels like this rabbit hole that I accidentally entered into. it's just like,

It keeps growing and growing and growing. And that just is one example of like me turning my attention onto this and then it becomes bigger and bigger and bigger. And like my life has never been better because of that, because of having that. And obviously to a certain degree, like my brain is making this up, but also does it matter if it's like bringing me joy and through that joy, I can connect to other people.

and I can bring more joy into this world. And I think we need joy. You know what I mean? So, yeah. I actually thought about this. I mean, obviously I see myself as a butterfly. I'm like the human embodiment of a butterfly. And I thought about this of like this studio, like changing, changing through the people that come here. I didn't really think about me changing alongside, but obviously I'm...

Max (03:59.436) I mean, you're going to, I think, nature. also think you're like the people you invite in the conversations you have are different. Like, I don't know, you and I know each other, I think, pretty well, but like we've also not known each other for that long. So, like, by the end of your time in New York, I hope this isn't the case, but we could not be talking. And I don't think this is the case. like, as a point, I'm not, okay, sorry.

Sophie (04:01.73) alongside.

Max (04:29.012) As an example of the extreme, we don't have to be talking, whatever it is. Don't take it seriously.

Sophie (04:35.95) Yeah, hypothetical.

Max (04:38.818) So, that's like, that's what my butterfly would still be here. That's right. And it wouldn't be like.

Sophie (04:45.102) You don't want to go as far as one of us could die. Sorry. the best part is still going to be there.

Max (04:49.518) Yeah, either or that. Or I can move away or you could move away or like I was riding this kid like... Well, I wouldn't say move. I'm gonna go crash on our friend's couch.

Sophie (04:54.67) but you're about to move away for a month.

Sophie (04:59.928) Cute enough.

Max (05:01.262) But in the meantime, you're going to be having new people come through here and you're going to flow and they're all going to come through you.

Sophie (05:08.622) We're gonna complete.

Max (05:10.222) your change or your perception and your perspective as a catalyst for this project is, don't think it's a project about the people around you. think it's a project about you in your... I know, it's like not a bad thing. It's about you. You me out, You are the butterfly in this context and...

Sophie (05:22.67) It is about.

Sophie (05:33.304) Sure, I'm documenting and recording my experience because obviously I record your experience. But at the end of the day, it's like, I'm a butterfly just as much as you are a butterfly, just as much as everyone else is a butterfly.

Max (05:49.646) All right,

Sophie (05:51.502) Yeah, exactly. And like, wings kind of like touch for a split second and like, we both leave this place and yeah, you're right. We might not ever see each other again, but there was a moment in time where we touched and we exchanged energy. I really, really, really love, especially on this format that I'm doing here, like I love to talk about like...

Max (05:53.666) taking this.

Sophie (06:19.342) You you sitting here is kind of the butterfly effect in personified. Cause like how many million people are in New York? A bunch. And yet here we are, you and I. And I said this, I remember I said this the first day that we met. Cause it was, it became so like this really obvious to me that like everything in your life led up to this exact moment and everything in my life led up to this exact moment.

And that's it. That's pretty much it. Like all we have is this exact moment, you know?

Max (06:53.838) That's true for it. Yeah, no, I so too.

Sophie (06:55.81) But yeah, I really like to talk about like shared lore. You and I have.

Max (07:01.71) Tomorrow, shared Laura. have a good trip. enough. You're my best spontaneous trip ever so far. Our Mexico City trip was pretty good. Just for the audience.

Sophie (07:04.622) shared lore.

Sophie (07:13.204) Agreed, but I mean how this all like Started was so funny in the sense that I like I came to New York because of this guy that like

Max (07:24.846) I don't know if this is because of this guy.

Sophie (07:26.562) Well, I came back to New York because it's like, flew back from Chicago to New York to see this guy. Didn't work out. I was heartbroken. I had three weeks that I thought I was going to spend with him. Right. And then I was kind of like, fuck, like I'm alone in New York city and I don't know anyone. And I was not in the mood to like go on the apps and like, I was not super social, but still I wanted to kind of like be around people. didn't want to spend like.

three weeks all by myself. Yeah, of course. social butterfly. So I ended up reaching out to Ellie's parents, but essentially like the friend that I originally came to the States for, that I did a road trip with, we ended up spending, like we went to visit like friends of her parents. And those, I remembered that

Max (07:59.63) So it's a butter.

Sophie (08:23.374) I really liked those people. They were super sweet with us. And I remember that they had a daughter in New York. So was like, Hey, by any chance does your daughter want to hang out? Cause I'm kind of lonely. they kind of like put us in contact. And she was like, Oh, do you want to, do you want to go meet my roommate and a friend of my roommates? And that's kind of like how I met you. And you were just this like cute 25 year old.

With those crushing blue eyes who stared at me like he's never seen a butterfly before. And well, we ended up talking like the entire night and one thing led to another and I ended up.

Max (09:11.212) all weekend together.

Sophie (09:12.758) We spent a whole weekend together. So then we ended up spending three days together. had fun. And you came to visit me in Mexico city.

Max (09:22.254) was totally impulsive. I was in Maine and I made the decision to do so. And I was like talking to my friends there and my best friends in the world probably and I was like I need to do something. I was still admittedly crashing out about my ex and

Sophie (09:42.444) Right, because you were just briefly broken up, right?

Max (09:44.782) Yeah, actually, that's right. I was like two months after a relatively major breakup for me.

Sophie (09:51.401) I don't what nature is in that case.

Max (09:53.3) I guess the most major breakup in my life so far. Knock on wood, guess, that either one happens again or whatever. And I needed to, I think, just sort of have a little bit of adventure. And I'd always wanted to go to Mexico City and you were there and you had... No, no, and you had...

You and I had had a great time and I figured like you would be a very good person to be in Mexico City with.

Sophie (10:21.848) You a good judgment of character.

Max (10:23.936) I think I have a good judgment of character and I felt like I was willing to take the risk of like totally alone in a land in a country that I didn't speak the language and

Sophie (10:29.389) beer.

Sophie (10:35.988) That reminds me of you, like you texted me when you flew over. Like an hour before you landed I think you texted me you were like, hey, I don't know, I don't even remember what you texted but you texted me and I didn't immediately reply because I was in the shower. And then you completely like freaked out or like, okay, she's not coming.

Max (10:40.803) Landed in, yeah.

Max (10:58.318) I have to put that I don't think I texted you this part though. told you after the fact. me, yeah. There was a moment where I was landing and I checked my texts and I was like, I had no service and no flight and I was looking and I was like, fuck. I sent that an hour ago. She still hasn't responded. And I was like planning my entire weekend within the span of like maybe two seconds or my entire week. was like, I'm going to find a hostel. I'm sure there's enough English speakers here. I know generally my way or I.

I can figure it out.

Sophie (11:29.922) Can I ask you something because that is something that has kind of come across me a bunch of times being in the States particularly. Cause people are so surprised when I actually show up and follow through with what I say. feel like, are you guys like super, super fickle? Like I'm fickle to a certain degree, I'm

Max (11:50.584) It's not a shickle, it's that we don't trust people, I think. Okay. It's that I don't

Sophie (11:55.032) But it is a cultural thing because like to me that was so wild because I like I told you I was gonna be that we were talking for like three weeks like this was actually this would be so insane.

Max (12:06.872) Right, but it's sort of similar to the guy you really liked. It's insane. that's not that crazy for me, the way he did to you.

Sophie (12:11.307) Yeah, but that to me also is like...

Sophie (12:17.206) Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's like you guys are much more accustomed to behavior like this. Whereas I'm coming in and I'm like, I've never been ghosted in my entire life.

Max (12:26.99) Yeah. I think people, especially my age, I think it's pretty common. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. No, you were the person who, mean, granted I haven't, I hadn't been in a situation where I needed to like ghost or like was in the possible had the possibility of ghosting someone, but you were the first person who I was talking to that like maybe you made me realize, not maybe, but you made me realize that I like, there are ways.

Sophie (12:32.226) goes.

Yeah. But I don't use-

Max (12:55.662) It's not that like you don't have to go. like, don't know how you, I don't always. Yeah. You, when you realize that I was, we weren't, I wasn't giving you what you wanted out of our like just texts. You sent a very nice, like well thought out text, just telling me why you were wanting some space and what you were thinking. And I thought the way that was, I've actually, I, this was after, yeah, this was after like a few months after nice to a city and was it weeks? Okay. A weeks after my city.

Sophie (13:17.73) This was Al.

Sophie (13:22.242) weeks.

Like ten days or something.

Max (13:27.534) Okay, well, I'm sorry. few days after my specialty and your text was like, just thought it was really well thought out. It didn't totally catch me off guard and I understood and I thought all of your points were incredibly valid. But it was like one of the first times I've seen a text like that, that I don't know, it was just like a sense that and my like foray into dating as a 25 year old. I've like used that as a sort of.

a blueprint for how to let people down or like how to tell like communicate with people. Like I want them to know that like, I don't know.

Sophie (14:03.192) You taught me how to speak to people.

Max (14:05.774) You kind of did though. It's like you kind of did in a romantic sense. Truly I hadn't had the experience with other people as an adult. And like there's ways within a relationship that you navigate through conflict or like navigate through your interests. And then there's ways outside of a relationship that are entirely different from when you know the person very well. like, and or there's also ways that like, you advocate for yourself. And it was sort of like, it was honestly one of the first like

Sophie (14:12.718) I'm just.

Max (14:35.886) fight, not fight, I don't know. First conflict I've had with someone who I think of as more than a friend since my relationship ended. And it was very interesting to sort of see the difference.

Sophie (14:51.618) between your relationship and...

Max (14:54.766) between just like what I expected and what happened.

Sophie (14:56.812) Okay, what did you expect?

Max (14:59.084) I don't know, I expected either that you would just like ghost me. Which I wouldn't have been upset. I've never like, if someone ghosts me, I'm never upset.

Sophie (15:09.228) I mean, wouldn't have been like ghosting is a different thing. Like ghosting is like someone like is interested in you and you just don't get to them anymore. That wouldn't have been the case. Like it would have been more like fizzling out.

Max (15:21.304) Yeah, I guess that's a better way putting it. It would like sort of fizzled out and...

Sophie (15:25.262) What happened is like, it's interesting because we actually didn't talk about this last time we met. But I mean, we were talking for like three weeks straight before you came to Mexico. And then we had like a week where we were basically being a couple without being a couple. Yeah. Very explicit to not being a couple, but also like, obviously we do have a connection. We do feel very fondly for each other.

Max (15:40.974) Like very explicitly not being.

Sophie (15:53.836) And there was really no way from there.

Max (15:57.55) Yeah, I mean, I think I've said that maybe I haven't said this to people. I've said this to other people, right? It's just like after that week, I was well, A, emotionally exhausted. Tell me more. it was like, no, no, not because of you. It was because it was, it was, I felt like I, got to be a point towards the end of the week where it felt like emotional whiplash. It was like, I just, I didn't know how to do it. And I had, and like we had an amazing week and I would

Sophie (16:08.556) Just...

because of me?

Max (16:27.37) I wouldn't trade that weekend for the world or the week for the world, but like I felt just, I was tired and I was confused and I was like, I just like, I was surprised that I could do it so fast after a breakup. And I had gone from like feeling sorry for myself and not really, yeah, really just feeling sorry for myself and sort of wandering around and then having like an amazing weekend with an amazing person or week. Sorry. I keep saying weekend.

Sophie (16:33.752) tired.

Sophie (16:42.254) You're big.

Max (16:56.942) Week with like an amazing person and and then to being over and not really know knowing what it looked like next because I didn't like we weren't dating and I didn't know how much energy I should put into I like hate texting I didn't know what I was

Sophie (17:10.445) You were really good at it. The three weeks prior. That was the only thing that upset me a little bit because I was like, okay, you were like, it was easy enough for you for like three weeks before, like, it felt like a little bit like, okay, you'd like drop me like a hot potato afterwards. That was the only thing that I had my issues with. Not the fact that like, we were both on the same page in terms of like, we didn't want to date one another.

Max (17:22.657) Yeah, yeah, before my

Sophie (17:40.398) but I cared about you and I do believe you cared about me too. And so it felt a little bit like, now you kind of like whatever. you got what you wanted and then I kind of like didn't matter anymore. kind of like was the.

Max (17:58.35) I just didn't communicate well, and this is a problem I have had in my life before, like the weeks going up, I was also sort of testing us and seeing if like we were gonna sputter out before we got to Mexico City. I was really anxious about getting to Mexico City and the two of us like not the same.

Sophie (18:14.455) Yeah, I get that. I think you did a really good job.

Max (18:18.254) And like, really, I enjoyed talking to you and I really, I'm sorry that I, I stopped putting in the same, honestly the same amount of effort as I was doing beforehand. I just, I felt, I mean, I definitely needed some space after that week and I didn't communicate that well. Yeah. I also didn't know what it looked like for like our, you and I in the future. Like, I didn't know how to see you again. I didn't know what our lives would be.

Sophie (18:46.018) Sure, mean none of us did.

Max (18:47.534) No, I know. like, not to say that's why I did anything, like, knowing you, are, I should have just asked. And that would have been smart, but I was not thinking super clearly. Yeah, that's something I've done before.

Sophie (19:02.976) not thinking super clearly.

Max (19:04.866) Not thinking super clearly and then hurting someone's feelings because of that. Not thinking super clearly because I react strongly to situation and I don't really understand why I'm reacting or like how I'm reacting. And then I think the way I respond often is by shutting down. And in doing so, I hurt people around me and I've been working on not shutting down as much. Which has been good, I think.

Sophie (19:21.269) Mm-hmm.

Sophie (19:31.97) Yeah, I guess it's hard to experience feelings if you know, I mean, obviously I was sensitive at the time and I know you were, you could tell, maybe you knew that. So it's also hard in those situations too, because you're potentially having feelings that go against what another person is feeling or doesn't.

doesn't particularly align with what they're feeling. But yeah, I agree with you. I think it's very important to just talk about this and feel what you feel regardless and then just kind of take it from there. You know what I mean?

Max (20:18.83) Yeah, yeah. I don't know why. I think sometimes I think that I should just deal with these things myself. And I think that is often. Not that that's what you're doing. But all that to say, not like, I don't mean to sound like I'm making excuses for not talking to you or like not giving you same amount of energy. And I truly am sorry for how I handled that.

Sophie (20:41.678) I'm definitely curious as to whether you're gonna, you know, stay in my life. I would like for you to stay in my life one way or another. I'm gonna be honest with you.

Max (20:52.142) I would like to stay in your life. Yeah, I don't know what that looks like, but I would like to stay in.

Sophie (20:58.646) No, I don't know what that looks like either. feel like you're the kind of person I would still like in 30 years from now and we would laugh at one another and be like, ha ha ha, remember that time on the bridge. We didn't talk about the bridge. Can you?

Max (21:00.51) Like, I f-

Max (21:13.966) Right by the time on the bridge? What would you like to hear about that time?

Sophie (21:18.008) Tell me how it was for you.

Max (21:19.662) How it was for me? Oh, it was great. It was very romantic. This is after we first met in that bar.

I admittedly wanted to go home with you. Should be, but I didn't really know what to do. So I was like, let's go for a walk.

Sophie (21:34.86) No way. I'm so shocked.

Sophie (21:43.746) Yeah, just, you were like, have you ever.

Max (21:46.382) was like, okay, it's a great ridge. I, you know, that was a good, yeah, I like that. But we ended up just walking across this bridge. Yeah. And it was beautiful. And you were wearing your stupid little flip flops. I'm sorry. I don't have the slanted flip flops. Oh my God. I was, that was honestly my one, like my one hang up.

Sophie (22:10.35) For real?

Max (22:11.436) the dogs were out. Never bargain.

Sophie (22:14.51) You're a psychopath.

Max (22:18.149) But no, I, I wanted to walk across the bridge with you. I think you flopped across the bridge.

Sophie (22:22.35) Sophie (22:26.958) You cannot even sneak up on any blood. You could never sneak up on anyone.

Max (22:29.294) You could never sneak up on anyone. You were, yeah, no, not at all conspicuous. I wouldn't actually ever refer to you as inconspicuous. we, I wanted to walk across the bridge. think you were entertaining me, but you might have also wanted to. I was vaguely amusing to you, I think.

Sophie (22:50.764) I like you. I thought you were funny. I really needed the distraction. And you were so, you were just so present. You were so present and you were so interested and...

Max (22:56.842) I was happy to be that distraction.

Max (23:07.342) I've never met anyone like you so I was like immediately sort of curious about what even this like one of the reasons why I'm here tonight not obviously because you invited me I want to be here but like one of the reasons that is sort of influencing why I'm here is because I'm curious about like your art and your life and like the things that you do when no one's looking and like how you are presented to like not just the people around you but like to yourself and something like this is a good way of doing that.

It's just seeing a little bit of glimpse of Sophie behind Clip's doors. Yeah, so we walked across the bridge and I think we kissed on the bridge, right? We had a very good kiss. No, no, no, no, Did we kiss beforehand? We didn't kiss before.

Sophie (23:48.364) No, no, we didn't. It was, it was connected to the flopping. No, you were like, you can never sneak up on anyone. And I was like, way better. Like you can already like anticipate me before I'm even there. And then I said, look, and I like made you like walk away from me for like 10, like five meters or something. And then I showcased how I would walk up on you and how that kind of like stirs anticipatory.

excitement within you. Of course. Which it did. Of course it Yeah. Look at me. And then we kissed. Then we kissed. It was a good kiss.

Max (24:20.846) Look at you.

Max (24:27.086) That was a kiss. Yeah, I a fun kiss. That was like also just like such a, it felt like a very New York moment for me and I was really kind of happy that I had it.

Sophie (24:39.455) Romantic New York moment.

Max (24:41.838) Yeah, it was a very romantic New York moment. And mind you also, this was like the first time I've done that in New York. So it held like, I mean, still holds like that memories that holds a special place in my heart and in my head.

Sophie (24:54.574) I'd like to think it's because of me. I'm like, made everything for you so special.

Max (25:01.806) I don't think it would be like, I don't think it would be the same with another person. You are very unique. Certainly you are very unique in who you are.

Sophie (25:04.451) the same.

Sophie (25:12.386) But like that, this is our unique kind of butterfly effect. I feel like it just goes to show like crazy horror things happen and then like something really unexpected happens through that. You know, it's like life really. But yeah, speaking of, mean, creating butterflies here and the butterfly obviously is like a central symbol of this and like.

Do you have any type of connection or association to butterfly?

Max (25:47.106) Butterflies? Don't really, unfortunately. think you are my only passion to butterflies. a way that's like, I think about it when I, or like when I see you, I think about, or I guess when I see a butterfly, you will pop into my head occasionally.

Sophie (26:02.21) Did I tell you that this is... I love so much when this happens. I generally like, I keep telling people like this is my idea of success, like having lots and lots and lots of people.

Max (26:16.2) I think know you as the butterfly.

Sophie (26:17.774) No, if they see a butterfly they think of me like that's kind of the hill on a die on like if every person I know thinks of me when they see butterflies like I'm good. I'm done. I've succeeded in life. That's all I care about

Max (26:33.55) I think it's like for you, it's very specific that you are sort of a butterfly in my head.

Sophie (26:41.098) I feel like, I don't know. I don't know whether you want to talk about this, I mean, you being a, correct me, but like semi-professional professional athlete.

Max (26:54.446) I wouldn't say professional, but like I was a high level.

Sophie (26:57.096) Yeah, you were definitely like...

Max (26:58.926) I was, um, you can't really be professional athlete for rowing, but I was, I had, this is my, this is my flex. I had, uh, the vastest time on like a rowing thing in the country for 2018. So I was like, I was good. I think I was good. I liked the thing. I was good.

Sophie (27:14.168) What?

Sophie (27:22.2) He had the fastest time in the country and he likes to think he was good. Yeah, I think so too. I think you were good. But, you quit that eventually. And like, I feel like this, and this might just be me like applying the butterfly to literally everything in my life because that's where I'm at. But this kind of, to me seems like a butterfly transformation of itself in the sense that you...

where you this one thing and then kind of like have this like big identity shift with quitting this and like focusing on different things and, or what's your take on those?

Max (28:05.45) I think so. I had this image of myself for like seven years of who I was going to be when I was like really finishing college, I think is probably a good marker for it for me. And that person for most of that time was I was going to be a D1 rower and I was going to hopefully be on the national team.

Sophie (28:17.506) Hello.

Sophie (28:29.215) Mm-hmm.

Max (28:31.198) at really close.

Sophie (28:33.442) then

Max (28:34.926) I got super depressed and it was like a culmination of the pandemic and just like stress for school and stress in my life and my like, this is right. I think this is really, I think my aunt got super sick and that was like around the same time, but I had already quit rowing and that just like felt like sort of the like, the final, like one of the final blows.

Yeah, so I had to reinvent, I had to like think about who I was outside of this thing that I loved and I still love differently now.

Sophie (29:12.462) And

Max (29:14.422) I didn't know who, I still am having a hard time with it. think, I think I still try to like, I'm still friends with a lot of rovers. They're like former rovers. have doubts in my mind of if I should have quit or not. And I will always go back and forth. So I'm like regretting that decision or not. But through that decision, I found like things that I do love, which is I'm really into bikes. I have.

Sophie (29:29.389) Hmm.

Max (29:41.794) Two of them now, I had five of them in college after I rowing. And I love building with my hands and I like building things that are like aesthetically pleasing, cool things like that. And I really like climbing and outdoors and that's not something I really had time to do when I was a rower. So I found hobbies and I found things that sort of filled the void, it was honestly, it's a really hard time. It was a really hard time in my life to switch.

Sophie (29:59.788) Sophie (30:10.498) Yeah.

Max (30:11.342) and like reframe who I was in my head. So yeah, I guess that would be sort of a metamorphosis in its own right, Sure. I had, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I still debate whether or not I would do it again. A lot of times I'll look back and I'll be like, oh, fuck, I should have really stuck it out. And then a lot of times I'm not. Like, I don't think I would be doing a lot of things that I do today without quitting growing. But it really.

Sophie (30:17.678) to show.

Max (30:40.078) was a hard transition for me.

Sophie (30:42.126) That's how I like to think about my project here. And I see a lot of similarities in you leaving, rowing, and having to redefine your identity. then I left law, I left the idea of being a lawyer. And I was like, oh, I want to become an artist. But also I have no formal education.

often times have no fucking idea what I'm even doing here. what am I doing? Like, sure, I write well and that's probably why they gave me this. I don't want to talk down on myself, but it's like, it sometimes like is a stretch to like...

Sophie (31:27.724) And maybe this is the hardest part of like being in this in-between phase where you like feel like you left something but you haven't fully arrived to like another thing. You know what I mean?

Max (31:39.118) Just to be clear, don't think you need a formal education for art to be...

Sophie (31:43.502) No, no, I don't, I don't think so either, but you're right. And like, it comes with its own set of problems in and of itself, but it's so funny. Then like I sit here and like, yeah, I, I'm where did you study? Well, nowhere. And then like, okay. do you have a website? I'm like, no. Do you have a portfolio? I'm like, no. Like, you know, all these, like all those markers, I don't have them. So I really like, I fall back.

purely on myself, which sometimes can be very hard. But I think it's part of this project also is like, or like I see a lot of parallels also. I always see a lot of parallels in my own, like my personal experience and like the collective experience. And I think I'm here and I'm doing this for the first time and I'm trying to figure things out. And we're here as a collective.

We're kind of doing this for the first time too, right? I mean, obviously there have been people before, but this particular time, this particular moment, like we've never navigated this moment before. So we're like all at this kind of like new, kind of like clumsy, kind of like what the fuck are we doing here? Kind of like, where is this going? And that's how I feel in my life. And that's how I feel like on a collective level is what we're experiencing as well. I don't know where I went off with this, but definitely like...

this whole project or not only this, but like even the podcast when it started was kind of like to trick my own fears to be like, Hey, it's not about the actual product being perfect, but it's about like showcasing the process, showcasing the messiness, showcasing like going out and doing something and there's inevitably gonna come something out of it and you're going to learn from that and you're going to grow from that and you're going to build from that. You know what I mean? And like,

I kind like just tried to be that as authentically as I could. And I think I did well. Yeah. So far. Thank you. like that. But yeah, it comes with a lot of vulnerability. And I think I wear a lot of myself on my sleeve and it kind of became my default setting. But yeah, sometimes I'm like,

Max (33:47.502) think you're very good at being you.

Sophie (34:10.872) right, not everyone works like that, like I forget. But what do you feel like, or when you look back and you're like, I don't know whether it was the right decision to give it up. Like, do you feel like growing or being an athlete gave you something that you're missing now? Or what is it that like makes you question, like do you know what it is that makes you question that decision?

Max (34:14.558) you

Max (34:39.476) I think is a weakness for, I was thinking about this when we talking about it. I think when I second guess things that I've done in my past, and I do a lot more than just relying, think.

Sophie (34:49.962) You second guess a lot more than just drawing or?

Max (34:52.608) I like, I think a lot about the decision I've made in the past. And I think the result of this, this thought that comes to mind a lot is just negative almost always. Like I'm comparing myself to sort of the, the, this like loose idea of who I would be if I had done something entirely different. Like it's a butterfly fight, right? It's like, if I had chosen to stick rowing, would have done, I would have been maybe a different place, but also maybe I would have been very similar to Amstead.

And like, I can sit there and think about what all would have changed if I had stuck out. But I think that's useless. I don't think that's worth my time. Yeah. I'd much rather focus on like who I am now and what I can do to be, I don't know, the most interesting version of myself to myself and not really dwell on it. And I think it's like, it's anxiety that brings it out and it's

Sophie (35:37.859) Be

Max (35:51.118) the maybe more level-headed side of me that reels me back. I don't think it's super productive for me to think about the things that I could have done. I might try to think about the things that I can do. I think I can do a lot. I think that's something that I've in the past been not very good at thinking and recently been getting better at thinking. I don't know if that really answers your question, but I try not to be

like fatalist or I try not to be negative about to my, I try to be kind to myself. I had my reasons for quitting and I'm here today because I quit one way or another and I'm here.

Sophie (36:34.287) Well, I for one am very grateful you are, so...

Max (36:39.31) Thank God I quit. God I quit. You never met. I probably would have met. I probably would have still worked. No, I actually probably wouldn't have met Lily and I probably wouldn't have met Ellie. And I probably, I would have probably met Lily, but I probably wouldn't have been close enough to get invited out to a bar with her in New York. So.

Sophie (36:41.038) Thank God you quit. You'd have never met.

Sophie (36:50.638) See?

Sophie (36:57.432) See? There you go.

Max (37:02.56) silver lining.

Sophie (37:03.534) I'm your solo lining. It's all I ever wanted to be.

Max (37:05.806) You are my silver lining.

Max (37:10.478) I'm like, I think I've been, I've been on a decent head space recently, which has been good. I think that's sort of rare for me.

Sophie (37:17.07) I keep coming back to this, like things are just not as far removed as we sometimes think they are.

Max (37:24.821) being like kids? Yeah.

Sophie (37:27.49) Like this was fun and cool back then. Like why would it not be fun and cool now? Like what? This is fun and cool now. And it's like, you know, it's like, you don't need to always be in like a pressure cooker and like freak out and like have our nervous systems go derail us. like, you actually just sit around and create like little butterflies and talk about life. And it's wonderful.

Max (37:33.026) This fun and cool now.

Sophie (37:56.152) That being said, like, how do you feel?

I don't know, I want to talk about the state of the world, not in like a, you know, dooms place, we're all fucked kind of way. And I also don't want to use like too broad of terms, but how do you feel in the world?

Max (38:14.704) Doom fucked, we're all fucked.

Sophie (38:17.139) Doomfuck, burlfuck, that's what you have to say.

Max (38:20.45) No, I'm just having a hard time with thinking that there's an upside or like something that's going to happen that challenges my, don't know, something that's going to happen that is like positive. I don't trust our elected officials in the U S at least to do their fucking jobs. I don't trust like the like cooler heads will prevail even like historically. Yeah. Cooler heads have prevailed. And I think it's sort of

It's really just not the best for human evolution to like not like cooler heads and all. prevail, but I think our president chief is a fucking idiot and I'm terrified of what our future holds. And I don't think like, think my job is probably like, my job is going to be given away to some AI and I think I can confidently say that because I build

Sophie (39:18.974) and that is a weird position.

Max (39:25.006) I don't like totally build them, but like I understand how they work and I watched them in my job and.

Sophie (39:33.294) We still have to create this matriarch version of Tachi.

Max (39:37.678) I bet I could make it this like two seconds.

Sophie (39:42.19) What are you talking about? Two seconds? It's so complex.

Max (39:45.742) I don't think so. Yeah. If you saw the Super Bowl, there's a thousand different things that can do something very simple. But to answer your question, not feeling great about the state of the world. I just had a dinner with my sister before this and she and I just sort of sat there and were upset about like the news together.

Sophie (40:09.486) And I get it, like don't, like, I think it's very easy for me to kind of like keep a chill head since I'm not, I wasn't born in this country, so I feel like I watch everything with more like a detached.

Max (40:27.342) you've enabled the lease.

Sophie (40:29.592) For sure. You have the ability to leave as well.

Max (40:32.558) I don't, it's not as clear for me. I, I also have more, like you loved, I think you love this country and like your experiences here are really cool. But I look at it and I see like, I see, I see like how.

I know, you grow up here thinking that this is the best country in world and knowing that it's the best country in the world and it's just like everyone, the politicians are doing the right things because we won World War II and your elected officials, we have a democracy, so our elected officials are truly representative of you and they are here for your best interest because you elected them and they should be and that's how our system works.

You grow up here and you realize that's fucking wrong and that the, generally the highest bidder gets their best interest. And, and like, I can't do anything other than vote like every time I can and see if, I don't know, like I really want my country to work. And my country is so young in the grand scheme of things.

Sophie (41:49.528) Sure.

Max (41:50.925) And I think like I'm still, I'm a little scared that, no, I am, I'm actually scared that in my lifetime, I will not have this country. And I think like it's easy to lose sight of, honestly, like, I don't know, it's easy to lose sight of what my country or what I think my country is.

Sophie (42:01.912) from

Sophie (42:15.118) Huh, explain.

Max (42:17.678) And just like, I'm so disillusioned as, as an adult that I'm anxious to see what, I don't know. just like, I don't trust it. I don't trust my country. I don't trust it. I don't trust it. And I'm, I'm angry at my country for making me not trust it. I am angry at our politicians. I'm angry at fucking idiots for electing our politicians and like

believing their lies and their bullshit and I have to like consider that anger with the idea that well the people who who I'm angry at just got taken advantage of by people who just have this like weird obsession with power and it's just things that you watch and I feel like I'm just watching my country fall away and I it's sad it's really sad to see that it's like when you realize that your parents aren't adults and they're just like

They're like just kids who are trying their best. It's like this sort of idea of a country that I've grown up with is gone. It's not the same. It's like I don't believe that that's the case anymore. I think that people are selfish and cruel and our country has fallen victim to that. And I don't truly think that anywhere else in the world is much different.

Sophie (43:38.424) Yeah, I think it's a very polarized, extreme version, but I don't think it's much different anywhere else. Living in Switzerland, wherever you want to think, it's heaven and earth. I don't think so.

Max (43:52.27) No, I mean, yeah, there's also just shit going on. there's just like, it's just like every country has, I don't know. That's what I think it comes down to for me is I don't know if I should look at it as, okay, there's a right and there's a wrong. Which I don't think is implicitly true. I don't think that exists in our society or like in humanity as a whole. I think I should more look at it as like there are really good things that happen in our lives and I should just seek those out.

as much as I can.

Sophie (44:24.28) But when I hear you talking, can't help it. There is so much tenderness and love also. When you speak about this country, when you speak about my country.

Max (44:36.77) Yeah, no, I love my country. hate, I hate my country and I love my country. I hate the people in it. I hate the fucking idiots in it. I hate, I hate Donald Trump. I hate like, there's a lot of it, but I like, I love my country for what I think it could be.

Sophie (44:50.062) That is kind of like where I want to go with this is like, tell me what it could be. Because I feel like, and don't get me wrong, like all those feelings are so valid and like feeling this, like this frustration is so palatable. Also for me being here, like in this point in time, like I can sense it everywhere I go, but like put everything aside beyond let's, let's not think about like.

reality for a second that's not think about what's realistic and what isn't. But like, what could this country be?

Max (45:28.182) I don't know. think we could be like what we say we are. We present ourselves as this sort of like beacon of morality. Like what the US does is it goes out into the rest of world and says, this is why we are right and this is why our system works and this is why you should want to be us and like why you should want to be that. And that is in of itself like colonialism and it's

Sophie (45:50.926) Okay, okay. Now we're back at what?

Max (45:53.166) I know, but no, I was going to say like, think.

Sophie (45:55.982) Yeah, what could it be? like, do you want it to be the beacon of morality or do you want it to be...

Max (46:01.422) I just wanted to be a place where I can raise kids and they're not inundated by horrible people everywhere.

Sophie (46:10.702) Okay, okay, okay. Again, you're telling me what you don't want it to be. You're like, I want it to be...

Max (46:14.638) I want be like, want, I mean, that's everything, like everything happening right now. I don't want to happen. don't like, I don't. I'm saying that, but I like have a hard time thinking about the actual things that I want for this country. I know it's hard.

Sophie (46:32.022) It's hard, what...

Max (46:33.622) I don't think there shouldn't be a country here. don't think that the US has to be remade. And if it is remade, I think it should be done in a way that is like, are, I'm saying this is what I want the country to I want it to be a place where the poorest person on earth has representation at the highest pot part of the country. And I want it to be a one-to-one representation where that person is able to

have their voice heard in some way or another. And I don't think that's like far off of what we want, like what the country is supposed to be at the end. But like, I know, I'm just saying, I just, and I wanted to be like, I wanted to be replaced for someone who can, who is like not normal or not quote unquote normal can just serve, do their own thing. And I can be whatever they want without really having to worry about.

Sophie (47:12.706) Let's not.

Max (47:33.248) like insert social thing that makes things hard here. Like it just feels like, I don't know, I have a hard time saying what I want it to be because I don't, I think we're at a point where it doesn't feel like a baseline to start off with. I don't know, it just feels like a point of sort of too far gone.

Sophie (47:55.394) The thing is it's actually way harder to think about what we want than to think about what we not want. Yeah. In general, like in our personal lives, like think about needs. Yeah. Tell me your needs. You're like, I don't want this, I don't want this, I don't want this, but I don't really know what I want. Cause that's kind of like, that's how we've been raised. That's how society works on a large scale. We're very good at calling things out. We're very good at pointing fingers.

cheer yourselves to others.

Max (48:26.702) I think, mean, it's sort of a cop out answer to give the alternatives what you want. Cause it's much, much more things that I don't want than I do want. I want to be like, yeah, I don't know. think that's my first answer is I think. When I first thought I the one that I resonate more with her. like, I just want to be, I want to be able to have a house and a kid who has a future, like a few, two kids, whatever, who are able to think about their future and not be scared. And I want.

to also be able to think about my future and not be scared. And I want, like, I just want to, like, feel some form of stability and comfort with, like, leaving the US and representing the United States. Like, yeah, I don't feel currently that I, if I leave the US, my country is a good place to start. It's just like, I just want, yeah, I don't know. I want to be proud of where I am again. I want to be proud of my country again.

Anyway, I think I was growing up and maybe naively, but yeah, I want to feel some pride in where I am from. I think I have hard time doing this.

proud of Minnesota.

Sophie (49:35.554) That's one thing.

Max (49:37.634) proud of the people. am proud as much as I say that I don't. think some of the people are stupid, which I do think some of the people are stupid. I am proud of the people who are standing up for it.

Sophie (49:48.854) Yeah, I do. you know, it's funny for me, first off, what became so viscerally clear to me traveling all the Americas. First off, it's just one America. Yes. that became so viscerally clear being on different parts.

Max (50:05.07) I mean,

Sophie (50:09.08) Sig one American.

I know. And like, I love that he like emphasized that. And also like the land that we're standing on is not the same thing as its politics. So feel like you can love the land and be in disagreement with the politics. You know what I mean? Like the land here is probably the most beautiful land I've ever seen.

Max (50:28.974) Yeah, yeah, 100%.

Max (50:34.904) Yes, I think America.

Sophie (50:37.486) The US, but also Central America, also South America. I have a very special connection with this place. And I didn't know this prior to coming to the US. I saw myself to know a lot about US culture because it's everywhere, right? It's like in movies, it's in TV shows, whatever. So I came here, but I didn't really know much about the abundance and the beauty.

of nature that is going on here. Like the national parks, the state parks I've been to. Like I've seen some of the most beautiful sunsets of my entire life. Yeah. And also I met some of the most wonderful people. Yeah. I've ever met. Including you, but also other people. And I think there are a lot of like wonderful people. And I think what would be said about being, it being a very young nation is definitely you can feel that in a sense. And it's.

tumultuous for sure, but I do believe, and I'm saying this coming from having a background in law and law inherently is like how a society organizes itself. our current system reinforces essentially like a very fear based way of relating to one another. is everything revolves around fear. Everything revolves around not being.

scam, you know, it's all about fear. And I think if you think about the history of law and where law originally comes from, law stems from rituals. Rituals were created in a very communal environment, in a relational environment. And it kind of like got very removed from that. And having studied that, I realized the

biggest problem of law itself is like, it's trying to organize a human body. But the way it does it, it's like, it drifts people even further apart. So it's like, kind of like reinforces what we actually don't want, but we also have no alternative to it. And then by no means am I saying I'm coming up with like a new system because

Max (52:38.296) us.

Max (52:57.576) I'm sure.

Sophie (52:59.042) But I do believe that we, I think I genuinely think our consciousness just adds through. Like the U S had its merits and didn't, you you can, you can argue about that, but there was a time where what it was doing was working in a way. saying to everyone's benefit, definitely not, but this is just history. How it, how it.

happened. But what I'm trying to say is having studied this, like one of the main reasons why I couldn't keep studying or couldn't work on the field that I chose initially was that I realized that the system, yeah, is kind of like outdated for who we are at this point in time. I think the first step, and here we are again with metamorphosis, right?

I think we are either we're right at this stage of like going to the chrysalis and like feeling a lot of resistance or we're already like partially in the phase of chrysalis, but things are breaking apart. Things are breaking down. It's a lot of turmoil. And I do believe that there's another side of this. And I do think we have to kind of get organized on

where we want to go. Not in like how we're going to do this. This is another step. This is not the step we are right now. No. But if we don't know what to focus on and what we want, we're inevitably going to turn around our own shoulder, you know? Like we're just going to spiral. So I feel like we have to like come together and be like, okay, well, what?

how do we want the world to feel like?

Max (54:59.245) Yeah.

Sophie (55:00.342) And I believe that we, we store that information like the caterpillar stores the information of the butterfly on a very visceral level. And what I mean by that is we all know the sense of like, you kind of like hinted at that, like things used to be better in the past, but if you look at it historically, they haven't actually been better, but there's this feeling of like, I want to feel like this. And I think this.

We're just not familiar with the concept of like having memories from the future. But I do believe that there are certain things where we're like, in the past, we used to be able to connect in a more connecting way or like we had more time for ourselves. And I believe that those are not memories from the past, but because we have no concept from memories from the future, we kind of like locate them in the past.

But I think those are the things that we yearn for. And instead of like just looking sentimentally into a path that never existed, I feel like we can see those things as like a North Star or like a lighthouse of like, okay, that's where we want to go towards. We don't have to fix now and here how we're going to get there, but having this idea of where we want to go to. Like what I'm hearing from you is like,

a country where everyone is being hurt, everyone can be what they fucking want to be. Like those are major aspects of like, and this is a beautiful thing that you kind of carry. And I want to piece those things together. I want to piece your little memories. I mean, I dare you to like shovel around in there more and see whether you have more things where you're like,

You know, when I grew up as a child, I was like, I just wanted to have fun with people. Like I just wanted to come together and create stuff with people. Like I didn't care about outrunning anyone. I didn't care about being better. know, I, I generally just wanted to like bring our energies together and create something together and have fun together. that's kind of like where I want to go. I, I'm not made for this.

Sophie (57:26.1) rap race kind of life. And I refuse it. And by refusing it, I kind of don't live in it. Yeah. You know? That's true. And it's so important to, I have to come back to it over and over again and like, what kind of world do I want to live in? I want to live in a world where we kind of live in communion with one another.

Love is like a guiding principle, like love is a guiding principle for my life through and through in everything I do. Like you can, you can tell that there's love in what I did here. You can, you can tell that there's love when I speak about things, you know, like, and that's kind of like the world I want to live in and other things such as freedom, but also safety. Like I want both. Don't tell me I.

cannot have the cake and eat it too. Like I want both. I want freedom and I want safety. And I want to live in a matriarchy where like structures work differently. Collaboration is the baseline. And like, I want to be of service. Like I want to be of service. I want to be useful. I want to feel like that at the end of the day, can like...

I was able to do something meaningful. That's why I love when people tell me that they think of me when they see butterflies because it's just like I made them pay attention to something beautiful.

Sophie (59:06.872) If this episode stirred something in you, I'd love to hear about it. Send me a little whisper on Instagram at fairytea.podcast or just write the words fairy wings in my DMs. That's how I'll know you were here.

Sophie (59:35.09) This was a 6-2 studio production. Find us at six-two.studio for all your creative sound needs.