Metamorphosis with Jordan

What if life is just a constant state of becoming? This episode is perfect for anyone seeking to cultivate resilience without losing their inner essence, or for artists and free spirits craving permission to practice fluidity in a demanding world. Whether you’re confronting a personal transition or looking for a philosophical reset, we’re here to offer a compelling blueprint for life’s ongoing metamorphosis.

Today I’m creating butterfly postcards in studio with Jordan as we unlock the transformative power of true metamorphosis. When everything feels like chaos and transition, what if you could reframe it as a sacred chrysalis — an essential pause in nature’s grand design?

Jordan and I delve into our personal journeys of transformation, from heartbreaks and creative rebirths to the fluid rhythms of city life. We share practical philosophies — from the butterfly symbol of metamorphosis to understanding life cycles — that show empowering ways to navigate change with grace rather than resistance.

If you’re feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or craving a deeper connection to your true self, this episode will transform your perspective. Discover how embracing uncertainty and fluidity can unlock extraordinary growth.

Highlights:

• The significance of the butterfly as a symbol for life’s inevitable shifts
• How to align with natural cycles and trust the process amidst societal chaos
• The role of creativity and community in sustaining your spiritual and emotional evolution
• The importance of balance between action and patience—living in flow rather than force
• How belief, trust, and effortless flow can create a juicy, meaningful existence

About Jordan:

Jordan Colón is a NYC based multidisciplinary artist working primarily in painting and ceramics. His functional line of ceramics is used by clients both in the states and abroad. His painting work focuses on color, rhythm, and abstraction. He was the owner and operator of Eat Cafe in Greenpoint (2006-2014), which took an experimental and artist approach to sustainable food. Jordan brings painting, ceramics, and food together at his studio in Greenpoint where he hosts community dinners.

Fairy Tea is produced by Six-Two Studio.

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Fairy Tea is a deeply personal podcast where I share the raw, honest messiness of life, exploring how to break free from societal expectations and follow the heart’s calling. Blending storytelling, spirituality, folklore, and self-discovery, Fairy Tea is both magical and real, whimsical yet grounded. It’s a space to embrace uncertainty, face challenges without fear, and stay curious about the possibilities ahead. Through my experiences, I invite listeners to see that a new way of living is possible — one that is intuitive, soulful, and uniquely their own.

Instagram: @fairytea.podcast or @akayourfairygodmother
Email: akayourfairygodmother@gmail.com

Transcript

Sophie (00:02.126) another butterfly effect aspect of all of this. This was actually born when I was at your place for the first time. And I was in such deep misery. I needed to do something because I was going crazy. And so I got literally a set of postcards and just a simple watercolor set.

Jordan (00:12.142) Really?

Sophie (00:30.604) And I started to make these butterfly posts. I think I said like, I'm going to make one once a day just to like keep myself busy, just to have like some sort of like a sense of a purpose or whatever. And I finished them by the end of those three weeks where I stayed at your place. I like, I was there for three weeks. Yeah. And I had like a set of postcards and I wrote to like, my friends in Switzerland. And it was just like, I sent them out all at once. And it was like,

Jordan (00:48.142) You're there for three weeks?

Sophie (01:00.066) releasing like this swarm of butterflies into the world. And that's kind of like where this idea was.

Jordan (01:06.07) Yeah, I feel like that was the...

Sophie (01:10.156) Welcome to Fairy Tea, where we sip on the thorough wisdom of the fairy realm and uncover its ancient secrets for healing, pleasure and rest. I'm your host Sophie, here to sprinkle a little enchantment into your everyday life. Think of this as one great unfolding experiment. An invitation to dance with magic, trust the unseen and let curiosity lead the way.

Sophie (01:46.67) Welcome. Jordan. I'm so happy to have you. So I never told you this, you don't really have a lot of background knowledge of me as a person, but I got to New York that time in summer because I felt madly in love with a guy that I met. I was on a road trip with a friend of mine and we came through New York and we stayed four days and I met this person and I fell in love with this person.

We both fell in love with one another and we were like, we need to see each other again. So I flew back from my friend is from Chicago. We drove back to Chicago and I flew back 10 days later to, be with him. And I stayed with him for two weeks and we had this very intense time and it got really complicated really fast. But I was kind of still hopeful. So I was like, you know what? I'm just going to get a different place because yeah, obviously it's like hard to.

to get to know someone when you're together 24-7. It was not ideal, but also like it was just the circumstances, right? And so I was like, I'm gonna get my own place for a few weeks so we can like explore this with a little more.

Jordan (03:00.718) Yeah.

Sophie (03:02.286) Yeah. And then that's when I moved in with you. That's how I found your place. Cause he lived in Greenpoint and I kind of like, through that, found the area. And then I moved in with you and he straight up goes to me. Really? Yeah. It was really, really sad.

Jordan (03:22.52) first time I was four days, you had met him?

Sophie (03:25.314) I met him four days and then I drove back to Chicago and then I stayed with him for two weeks.

Jordan (03:31.662) Okay, so at the end of two weeks, you found my place. Never heard from again.

Sophie (03:36.044) Never heard of him. Interesting.

Jordan (03:38.094) It's been long time, two weeks.

Sophie (03:40.182) I his family, I met his nephew and nieces. Yeah, sure. mean, one can definitely have comments on the whole process, but it was just circumstantial in the sense that I was just there and like, you know, we were like, okay, we're just going to figure it know, ultimately, like, I don't blame him at all. Like, you can change your mind. It's like, you know, that happens. Yeah, just be like, actually, I want to go a different route.

Jordan (03:43.374) celebrated.

Jordan (04:03.16) conversation would be nice.

Sophie (04:08.078) perfectly fine. Not ever hearing a word ever again is to this day.

Jordan (04:11.726) To this day? Yeah. Have you seen him? No.

Sophie (04:16.599) So yeah, was in deep crisis. It was so tough because I genuinely had feelings for this person. And we had shared ideas of how we want to, which, know, again, like I can see how one could raise concerns about how we did this. regardless.

Jordan (04:31.694) Yeah.

Sophie (04:45.28) I was in your place and I was devastated and I was lonely as fuck. Cause again, I had like, I thought it was going to play out a whole lot different, but it all leads up to me being here now. You know what I mean? Like staying at your place. many good things happened from that. So I don't really consider it now as something bad, even though it definitely was hard. So yeah, that kind of led me to your place and

Jordan (05:06.701) Yeah, totally.

Sophie (05:14.838) I was so glad that it was your place and not any other place because I mean, I've told you this before, but like your place has such a special energy. it's so, like I really had this like sanctuary feeling that I desperately needed at the

Jordan (05:29.898) So that's, I mean that's definitely the intention. Yeah, I think it's some people love it and I think most people really enjoy their time there. Definitely some people respond to that part of it, which is nice. It's beautiful. The quiet.

Sophie (05:46.542) For how long have you done the hosting? Sorry, I'm just...

Jordan (05:51.054) I moved in there in 2020. Like my least technically started in February 2020, but I was in there in January like painting and stuff like that. So yeah, I rent the space. I know the landlady. It's funny how I got there.

Sophie (06:06.476) Okay.

Sophie (06:12.91) Yeah, I would love to know the story. How you got that? Like, cause the house is just stunning.

Jordan (06:17.358) Yeah, it is. It's unique too, right? On the block. It's a cool story. I got there to appreciate this. I, so I had a little restaurant in, on Mesorol Avenue in Greenpoint for a while. And then one of my like early customers was this couple in the neighborhood, Bob and Nancy, and they used to come in and get breakfast all the time. And they were like, at that time they were probably in their fifties or early sixties, probably early sixties, like very supportive, like lived in the neighborhood their whole life. So they came in.

They always knew places in the neighborhood, et cetera, et cetera. They appreciated what I was doing, the coffee and the food. And then I became friends with them. I was working and operating the cafe. It was really small. was two or three of us working at a time at most. So it was a small coffee shop, record shop at the time, actually. Yeah, it was more of a coffee shop. The whole time it was more of a cafe. It was never really anything normalized, in a way.

Sophie (07:05.379) it was a coffee place for.

Sophie (07:16.334) Tell me more about that.

Jordan (07:17.326) So it was just kind of like, really in hindsight, was, and even like during it, it really felt more like, like my art studio in a way. Rather than like a restaurant. Like it never had that like feeling to me. So Bob and Nancy came in a lot. Bob became friends with us and they were like really good customers. They'd leave big tips for everybody, you know. Nancy was like way

Sophie (07:27.105) Hmm.

Jordan (07:46.518) quieter and Bob was like a big personality. And he supported other artists in the neighborhood and he would like, you know, let me know about that and stuff like that. So he, at one point I was thinking of like expanding it into another place. The cafe, there's like on Franklin I was thinking there was like a spot that came up and I was this could be good. So I was young at the time. I was like really young when I started doing it. So then he was like,

Sophie (08:00.728) Okay.

Jordan (08:12.91) Maybe I could invest. And he was like, kind of talking through it. Anyway, one time we were driving around the neighborhood. He's like, let's go look at that space. I'll pick you up at the restaurant. So he jumped in the car and he's like, let me show you this house that I own, Noble Street. And we drive by and this is like 2009 or 10. Yeah. And he was like, oh, I own this house. And he's like, I was like, oh my God, what a beautiful house. He's like, yeah, we have great tenants. We like keep the rent really low. It was like, you know, if they ever leave like one day, you'll live here. I was like, sounds good, Bob. Keep that in mind.

And so that was like, I like, I changed the restaurant so much. was like kind of going through like the next central crisis in a way, in my mid to late twenties with this thing. So like it changed a lot. At one point they weren't coming in as much where we said like friendly food neighborhood, blah, blah. Okay. So fast forward like years later, I was living at the end of noble street where that coffee shop, flower shop is.

Sophie (09:08.415) yeah, the cat.

Jordan (09:09.512) Yeah, that was my space for like years that that little thing was my show. I had a showroom there really? Yeah, like four or five years and even before that I had the top floor of the building I had a loft there that I was wrenching since like 2010 Mm-hmm, which I got through friends of mine in the neighborhood. So it's kind of like passed down So my one friend was living there. He moved upstate in 2010. I moved in for a couple years I then was ended up living in the Berkshires for like

At that point I thought I was going to be there full time, was back and forth a lot, but I subletted, I subleased my lease to somebody. Sure. Is it a North, like Western Mass, Northwest, Northwest Connecticut? Oh, right, right, right. So I like subleased my space. to a friend of a friend of a friend. And with the agreement, like at first I was like, they were paying me and then I paid around this one off for like a year. And then finally I was like, Hey, why don't you just take over?

the lease. And when you move, give it back to me. And it was like a really cheap lease. And that was a super of the building as well, because the landlord didn't live there. So I was like, you can take over my super duties. I'm just going to, because I was charging her a little bit more than the lease. And I trusted her. was like, look, everybody's going to want to get this place. This is a beautiful loft. It's super cheap. Yeah. It's like, you really have to agree. Like, this is a verbal contract, but I will want this back when you're ready.

Sophie (10:34.124) Sure.

Jordan (10:34.958) Once again, like five years later, by, and I was like, yeah, five years later, like 2012, maybe over four years, something like that. 2017, she was moving with her then boyfriend to the West Coast, and she's like, hey, do want it back? I was like, yep. It's like perfect timing. Like literally, like I didn't, I couldn't even have taken it back two years before that. I knew, because it was like from friend to friend for like, I got it like five years after like two of my friends had lived there, and it was just such a sweet spot.

Sophie (10:55.328) Like just new

Jordan (11:04.942) And I was like, and I was, I was still doing business in New York. Even when I was living full time, I was still like here all the time, but I didn't need that apartment. she left, I got it back. And then, um, I started doing Airbnb there actually. And at that time I was living, I was back in that apartment. I got the showroom downstairs, um, this part of this deal and the landlord had let me know that he was thinking about selling the building. So I got the showroom for very cheap.

and I got my apartment for very cheap. And because you're seeing about selling it, a year after I had moved back in, the woman on the second floor moved out and I rented that apartment as well. So it was like renting that whole house. And it just became like a lot of fun. some friends living on the second floor. was like, had the showroom on the ground floor. And then I was, had my loft on the top floor and I was living between there, Northwest Connecticut, Cornwall Connecticut is the town and in Paris at the time. I was in Paris like for like half, five months out of the year.

Sophie (11:43.79) Okay, yeah.

Jordan (12:02.83) in and around Paris. So I had this like cool little thing going on. Fascinating. Yeah, so at that time I was dating a French girl from like 2018 to 2020. She was from Paris. She had like a family country home like south in the Loire Valley. So we'd spend time between those two places and New York. It was cool actually. I really actually kind of missed that lifestyle a lot. So the building sold in like 2019. So I had like

Sophie (12:06.186) So.

Sophie (12:22.988) Yeah.

Jordan (12:31.574) moved back in 17, had two more years and the new landlord, he wanted the gut renovated. He's like, you can keep the store, but you're kicked out of the two apartments. And I was like, shit, okay. And then I was like, that's a bummer. But I was like, I'm not gonna look for another apartment. Like if I'm gonna stay in New York, I want another house like this. Cause I just like, it just fit what I wanted. Big space, I don't wanna live in a small apartment, but I want the right deal, et cetera.

The new landlord who bought the space happened to be renting 98, my place. when he... Yeah, he was renting it. He lived there. He was renting it from Bob and Nancy. So when I found this out, I was like, where are you living? He's like, I'm living at 98. No, but you know the house. looks like the old house. was like, wow, that's crazy. I like, I know Bob and Nancy from the restaurant. He's like, oh yeah. He's like, well, actually Bob passed away. And I was like, oh, that's terrible. And then...

Sophie (13:09.07) We lived there.

Jordan (13:31.662) Yeah, he was like, well, look, I'm actually gonna be moving into this place. Why don't you take over 98? I was like, that's a great idea. I will. So, and I had all my criteria. I wanted a garden, which is very important to me. And because I've always had a garden since like, not always, for the last like 16 years I've had a garden.

Sophie (13:51.116) which is not a simple requirement in New York City.

Jordan (13:53.294) No, and I had them upstate, but I always had a garden in my possession since like 2000. Thank you. This is like my favorite garden I've had. It's the longest continuous garden I've had at this point. So yeah, then I moved in there. I didn't have a place for like, was like maybe almost a year before I moved in. like 2019, 2020, I was kind of like waiting for Rob to finish the

Sophie (13:58.37) and your garden is beautiful.

Jordan (14:23.054) renovation at the place I was getting kicked out of. 837 Manhattan at the end of the block. And then it just worked that way. It was really cool. So then I moved in, yeah. And it was a weird time. started doing the Airbnb thing. I didn't really like, when I got the house, my intention wasn't to live there full time. So this was February, or February 2020 I got it, but I kind of like decided on this like that fall.

I like paid the deposit and everything. 2019. So my idea was I would keep the same lifestyle of Cornwall, New York and France. And instead of having the loft at the industry, which was working really well, which was only like 2000 a month, I took on this like place like four times as expensive at the time. Like, but there's four big rooms. I was like, I'll just do a similar thing and I'll be in and out and I'll make it work. So I started doing that. then with the beginning of COVID, which was like,

everything kind of like turned around. So I ended up moving back full time to the studio upstate. The guy, he was a friend of mine. He had the studio. He was very concerned about COVID. And he's like, I only want one person working in here. And like, I need to work. I don't have money if I'm not working. So I was like, man. So I had the house. It was kind of cool. I like, I don't mind. These disciplines was actually nice like turn of events. So it was the same where like,

I immediately like closed down the Airbnb thinking like no one would book in hindsight. That was actually a mistake. And yeah, so it was everything that like thrown upside down, you know? And I was also oddly getting busy with ceramic orders during this time. I, yeah, like I moved into the house in February, 2020. Think I started, I listed these rooms on Airbnb back then there weren't any restrictions on Airbnb. So it was just like open. And then.

Sophie (16:07.182) It started at the same time.

Jordan (16:18.178) I got roommates for like a year, which was like kind of a bizarre thing. And then after all the COVID stuff ended, I put it back on Airbnb and started doing these like short-term rentals. Anyways, it's a long story.

Sophie (16:31.402) It just feels like...

Jordan (16:34.486) It's cool. It's like a project. it's, it's, it's New York's, like I've lived here for 20 years and I've been through a few spaces. It's very hard to feel like you're set anywhere here unless, you know what I mean? Like it's very transient, like changing, evolving city. It's hard to get to. It's fluid and it's very fluid and surrounded by tons of water. That's feel it, you know, it's like, I like that fluid element of it. It kind of suits me.

Sophie (16:51.47) Sounds very fluid, everything.

Jordan (17:03.598) And then after the roommates, I started doing these rooms and I just blocked off the kitchen and it actually ended up being really cool because I think it serves a good purpose for, seems like a good service. I'm glad you're enjoying it and it's serving. So that's how I got the Airbnb going. It's okay. It's a period in my life. It's not forever.

Sophie (17:18.272) Definitely.

Sophie (17:28.622) Actually, funnily enough, that's like I used to be an Airbnb host.

Jordan (17:31.822) Oh you did? And you would like live with them? would see them and stuff? Or it was like a place you didn't live? In Basel or?

Sophie (17:37.134) So what we did, yeah, I can relate to what you just shared so well because when I was 22, I was 22 and I moved in with my boyfriend at the time and we just got this perfect apartment. Like in hindsight, it wasn't expensive at all, but I was still studying and he was working as a carpenter. He wasn't earning a lot. And so.

in order for us to be able to sustain the apartment, we needed to sublet one of the rooms. So like same, you know, we're like, we want to live at this beautiful place. It was a very unique apartment. was beautiful. the floors, the high seat, like the perfect European apartment, except that it didn't have a balcony. was the one downside, it was like, the location was great. Like everything was absolutely stunning.

And so what we did, we rented it out during Art Basel and during the big art fairs, there are two really big art fairs in Basel, we rented out the entire space, which at the time provided three times our rent in one week. But we also had one room for long-term. we had, for a year we had a friend staying with us. Well, he became a friend, we didn't know him, but...

Jordan (18:49.522) Amazing.

Sophie (19:02.882) He became a friend and then another guy stayed with us for like half a year, six months. And then we started really, really struggling with that setup. you know, like in the beginning it was really fun. And then at some point we're just like, we want this place to ourselves. Yeah, we were a couple and yeah. But then we made it work. That's why I'm saying it's like there's season for everything. And then like.

Jordan (19:22.158) Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're a

You don't want to be living with random people.

Sophie (19:31.827) once you know like the season is up, you just kind of like find a way to make it work, you know?

Jordan (19:36.716) Yeah, totally. I know, change is a beautiful thing.

Sophie (19:40.056) Totally, yeah, I agree.

Jordan (19:42.702) But yeah, so it's been cool actually, the life there. I have a unique life.

Sophie (19:47.264) Yeah, I mean, it sounds like you're so good at this fluid. not many people do this and like I am obsessed with like living in that way and I'm still trying to like find my bearings and everything. like listening to you, it just like makes me so hopeful because yeah, it's like...

Jordan (20:08.648) Yeah, that's makes sense. mean, there's definitely for me, it's something that I like learn through like both action and listening. So there was a, there is a time where it's, yeah, it's just like, I think at the end I was just like, knew, I kind of like know how I want to live. So I try not to like compromise that. Like I like my freedom of time, especially. Yeah.

And I like, so I like don't like really compromise that so much. And yeah, so it's been like a very good journey, but it definitely takes like a lot of faith and it's kind of like a spiritual practice more than anything.

Sophie (20:52.27) 100%. I mean, everything you just said, like how it's interconnected, like there's no way to plan. Like you cannot plan in you.

Jordan (20:59.936) Yeah, like that's like a lot of my life's like that. It's like kind of like I look for openings, I know what I want and I have like faith that like it's gonna come to me. And it does. Yeah, if you're patient, that's the thing. That's, yeah. patient and like keep like the channels clear in your head. Like, know, thoughts create the universe, this type of thing. And I think there's obviously like so much truth in that, that when you start practicing it, it does become a reality, but it's not like,

Sophie (21:10.209) a thing.

Jordan (21:28.364) Yeah, it's just, it's just patience, you know, just, I'll get it like, hang in there. And it's okay to like know what you want and go for it. I think that's the other thing is like kind of having a sense of empowerment. like, this is like, and I studied, art and literature and also like through like studying English literature, this department, did some social linguistics and a lot of that's about like what I was learning where it's like through literacy and learning, like you, have to look at things like through your lens and like your

Sophie (21:33.198) So.

Jordan (21:58.35) view on the world is a valid view. And that view isn't necessarily, it's uniquely you, but it's informed by all these things. So don't be afraid of having your thoughts or going out with them because people will understand them because you're in the context of a group of people. These are cues you learn. So if you find your own unique way in that, don't be scared to share it because you will be supported because you're not alone, you're not isolated. And I think if you feel that way, it's very hard to...

work fluidly and make work wrongly. If you feel like you're not supported. And I think that's something I learned even through like literacy studies, like you're supported, you know? In fact, that like helped me a lot. Cause when I started doing this like little cafe, eat, I was like 23. It was like a record shop, coffee shop. Like Greenpoint 2005, I started going there. got that lease in like 2006.

Sophie (22:30.904) for

Jordan (22:49.57) And the guys I kind of gave it to, like, no one wants to run this cafe. We're doing the records. We can't afford the ramp. Our friends were doing the cafe. They left. And it's just like empty, filled with LPs right now. So like, I kind of came in and I was like, okay, I'm like dumb and naive enough to do this. And it was cool though. And, through that, like my whole thing was at that point, I was like already committed to my path as an artist. But I saw an opening and I was like, well, let this be this opening for me. Like I wanted it to be.

vehicle for my work, for my artwork, especially like painting. I'm still painting all the work I'm doing, you know? And it ended up really being that. Like there's so many artists and like people in the art world I met through that. Like I was able to build the pottery business from that and it's still like that like intention or prayer or whatever is like still in there, you know? As far as like this path of like these things like lead you to your greater goal. Just like have faith in the process and stay the course. Like don't freak out.

That's the other thing I'm learning is like don't catastrophize. It's like, it's very easy to like, we live in a society of like catastrophized people are tuned into the 24 hour cycle that's been told to them is the most important thing in the world. And they're just like losing their shit. So I've like found my own way in it, like looking for the openings to kind of figure out what I need. Trying to take, I take care of myself.

Sophie (24:06.318) But yeah, I don't even know where to begin everything is I just resonate so hard with with you know my work like one of the core purposes I don't even know how many there are but like one of the core purposes of this work is like We have to get past this dooms ideology We're not gonna manifest anything good from saying we're doomed forever

Jordan (24:23.022) That was terrible.

Jordan (24:27.022) Well, this is, this is a, it's like an addiction. It catastrophizes fear-based addictions.

Sophie (24:28.846) It's an addiction, I rage.

And so what I'm trying to do is actively try to create those conditions where we are right here in this tiny room. But I want to make this bigger. This is just a lab stage. I have a huge vision of I want to do a gigantic multi-sensory installation for the Dandelion, which is really a co-creative process. And this space here is a co-creative process. in a friend of mine who has a thrift store, she borrowed me most of the

furniture because I mean, I don't have any use for it afterwards. I'm just going to give it back to her. You actually brought me a vase. so like this, this is part of the energy of this space. But I like also, I told you, I had this friend coming in who like literally conducted magic for this space to like be able to be the vessel to be like a microcosm within this bigger cause. I'm where, where we're just. Yeah. I want to create the conditions where we can just drop into.

the natural beings that we actually are and figure out whether there's more than just like, yeah, like we're all doomed and.

Jordan (25:41.536) Yeah, I agree. mean, but that's like, it's easy to say it's like people don't practice it though, which I think it is. Well, some people, I shouldn't say people don't, but it's easy not to practice that. It's easy to get wrapped up in this doomsday thing. It is a discipline.

Sophie (25:52.846) That's That's true, but it is definitely a discipline. But I feel like I am trying to create conditions that kind of like reminds people of like, yeah, we're not distinct from nature. You know, we're not, it's not nature and us. That weird dichotomy is like, it's like the weirdest thing to me ever.

Jordan (26:10.51) No, it's a-

Jordan (26:15.616) I agree. think about that a lot, especially in New York City going around.

Sophie (26:19.694) And so I'm trying to like remind people of that and be like, hey, you're actually an atoll being. Like, let's figure out what's slumbering in there. But yeah, one thing that really, really resonated with me that you said is like the idea of like your perspective matters. And I would argue that like you were like half faith that people will understand. And I would argue that they can only understand if you share from your...

Jordan (26:46.094) Yes, yeah, exactly. Right? Yeah, even though you might, there's a narrative sometimes, at least I had it, all, still, but it's, know, plan for where you self doubt or...

Sophie (26:56.704) Of course. it's not everyone is, they're not everyone's cup of tea. There's always going to be people that are like,

Jordan (27:05.07) Oh yeah, of course. I like that though. I mean, we used to joke at the restaurants, like it's not for everybody. You know, like it's just not like, I remember one time I was like on this very like kind of full on like trip and I was like, we're done selling coffee, which was like my most of my business coffee, because I just like read a book on my coffee history, current day, just like, you know, coups, slave trades, like the oil industry. I was like, we're done with coffee. And I didn't, I don't really drink coffee. I love coffee, but like I'm not like,

Sophie (27:28.462) Thank

Jordan (27:35.022) a coffee drinker. was probably the worst business move one could make in my position. It was like the lifeline was the coffee. But I was like, I don't want to do it anymore. I'm tired of busy brunches. I want my Saturday and Sunday mornings to be chill at the restaurant. I used to get brunch rushes and brunch people. It's fine if you're a brunch person. It just wasn't where I was at. I was on a different trip at that point. And I've also been kind of, I've tried my best since I was around 18 to be a renunciate of mainstream.

Sophie (27:50.328) because

Jordan (28:03.118) media of all of it. News, music, movies. Like I've really tried to like intentionally fill myself with things that I find like fulfilling. Absolutely. You know, and mainstream media is just a general thing. I just don't find that fulfilling. Like since I was a teenager, I started to question it. By the time I was 18, I was kind of fully like over it. Yeah. And so I don't know a lot of like mainstream cues and stuff like that, but I'm okay with that too. You know, like so there is like that

element of I kind of like am in my own research throughout life, know, like researching and I, you know, studying and stuff like that. And I think that's like an important part of being an artist, especially because that's what I've chosen to do.

Sophie (28:47.598) Definitely, and I think it's so cool because it keeps coming up in those conversations also. It's like, I'm in my own experiment. I think you should be your own experiment. And like, I started this podcast saying like, I'm just gonna document my experiment. I don't know where I'm going, but that's how I started a year ago, and now I'm here. And like, I thoroughly believe that if you create whatever you create, it doesn't bring, just create. And then like, I don't believe in the concept of failure in that sense.

Jordan (29:12.909) Yeah.

Sophie (29:16.93) I don't have a clear expectation as to where this has to go. It's more so like if the more I create, the more it grows. And so it's always gonna.

Jordan (29:24.088) Yeah, exactly. Grow. And that's part of a positive outlook on life and kind of universal order of things. It's introducing these thought patterns that create growth.

Sophie (29:35.488) Exactly. you're always going to succeed with it because your growth is kind of like in nature.

Jordan (29:42.574) Yeah, that's a natural order. We're we're growing, we're expanding. And I think that's like, that's something nice to rest in, know, and like have that as like a guide, you know, that there is like rewards and growth and this type of thing, you know. But I'm still practicing, I mean, still like, still practicing, it's a life practice, but there's definitely challenges for me living in the city full time. Speaking of nature, just like not being able to...

Sophie (29:46.872) Holy.

Sophie (30:12.032) Not being close to.

Jordan (30:13.454) Yeah, like I get a lot of satisfaction from just like walking in a forest or a field or you know, see something or something like that. That's like kind of one of my favorite things to do was just simply being out in these things. They're like working with nature, et cetera.

Sophie (30:28.332) Yeah, no truly.

Jordan (30:29.774) But then again, there's another part that's like, this is the age old city country arguments. In the city, though, you're in society, you're in like a different, you're sharing. And I have to remind myself of that too. Like, lot of my life is about serbs, you know, it's like.

Sophie (30:42.166) It's about balance at the end of the day, you know, you to find a way how you can restore balance within you. And then that translates to your, to your outside, how you perceive things. And like that balance is different for everyone. My biggest dream is to be able to live in New York permanently. And then I want to have like a little cottage in Cape Cod.

Jordan (30:53.859) Yeah.

Jordan (31:07.103) So wait, what is it? where you're from though, why, and I ask as somebody that lives here, why on earth would you want to do that? Like, live here? Yeah, compared to like living in Switzerland and having like a cottage in like the Alps or something. Or like on the Mediterranean.

Sophie (31:20.884) I think a lot of American people are so confused. lot of American people are confused, a lot of Swiss people, like all my friends and family are like, why the heck would you want to move to the US right now? They're like in the midst of like...

Jordan (31:35.348) don't, I mean, I get that. That's one of those catastrophizing narratives. that's we can do. like the, president's gonna change. this is, it's just, and New York's really not America.

Sophie (31:40.814) But I don't really buy it.

Sophie (31:47.221) Exactly.

Honestly, like pretty- feel like an accident. No, it doesn't. I was surprised myself, but pretty similarly to what you shared, like I don't think I've told you this, but I'm originally a lawyer. Yeah, right. When I visited you, were-

Jordan (32:01.282) Yeah, yeah, and I saw that.

And you're doing like, societal law or?

Sophie (32:08.302) criminal law. Yeah. So I originally was working as a lawyer. I hated it from the bottom of my heart. Yeah.

Jordan (32:16.654) Actually, I'm not And were you from a family of lawyers? No, at all. So what brought you into that?

Sophie (32:21.44) It just felt right at the time and I don't. Yeah. And I look at it as like this masculine feminine thing in a way. think it taught me structure. I learned how large groups of people organize themselves. And I do implement it now in my work in the sense that I I feel like I went on a quest to find like the invisible. biggest reason why I couldn't continue with law was because I was like, there's a whole sphere that

Jordan (32:23.342) And then you ended up getting into it and you're like, nah,

Sophie (32:50.858) is not being taken into consideration in this system. And that to me is like the invisible, the energies, the relational.

Jordan (33:01.9) Yes, for sure. Yeah.

Sophie (33:03.424) In hindsight, I can only formulate this now, but I was like, I cannot do this. I need to go find a way to integrate the other side. And I feel like I master, quote unquote, master like the masculine approach to life of like structure, container, organization. But I needed the other side just as much. And so now being like working as an artist, it's like I'm bringing those two aspects together in a way. I like, cause we need both.

Jordan (33:31.596) Yeah, I mean New York's a very masculine place. Probably the most masculine.

Sophie (33:34.666) As, And there's just something about the energy here that makes me feel like a fish in the water. That's interesting. And I've, I thought a lot about this and I think what's why New York amongst many things, I mean, New York is special in so many ways, but like why I feel so drawn to it and why I feel so comfortable here is I think because I simultaneously blend in and stand out.

Jordan (34:02.38) Yeah, exactly.

Sophie (34:03.142) And that's the only place in the world that caters to both of those needs in that way. You know what I mean?

Jordan (34:09.07) That's funny. I totally relate to that. I do, a hundred percent. Yeah. It's why I can't, it's one of reasons I can't live in other places. Like deep countryside for me or like New York or Paris is fine. Bigger cities. But yeah, I like that about here too. Cause I feel like even like the hometown I'm in, like I always stuck out, know, I had longer hair, dressed differently and like, people comment on it I'm like too shy to be like, I'm not somebody that wants to stand out and get con like have comments.

Sophie (34:20.467) They are a pair. You can always do pairs.

Jordan (34:37.838) I like, I think in New York, some people want that they're more extroverted, that way other people are just being themselves and kind of want to blend in, like you're saying. And I kind of relate.

Sophie (34:47.912) But want to be appreciated for the uniqueness that you bring to the table. Which New York is really, really, really good at.

Jordan (34:54.574) It's true. Well, I always say like all this, I was telling you little bit about the restaurant, like all these crazy ideas I had there were like always supportive. Exactly. And that kind of blew me away. Like I was like going from a coffee, record shop, coffee shop, the records left. I stopped serving coffee, started doing more of a food thing. And not that I made money because like I didn't from that, but like it was still supportive in a sense to like make it so I could still like make a living and.

Sophie (35:20.138) New York has also a special relationship towards novelty, think more than any other place in the world. It's so appreciative of novelty. Like I remember sharing, I don't even know with whom that was, but it was in Switzerland. explained some of my vision and then they were like, you know, when people ask me what I do, I work interdisciplinary and I call myself a fairy godmother. then it's hard for people to understand and Switzerland, the

Jordan (35:43.362) It was probably hard for people to understand.

Sophie (35:48.632) general narrative is, well, that doesn't exist. And then I go, well, that's precisely the point. Like, that's why I'm intrigued to do this, because it doesn't exist. If it already existed, why would I, like, I wouldn't be interested. And New York has like a natural understanding of this.

Jordan (36:04.224) Yes, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. No, very much.

Sophie (36:07.695) So there you go. That's my reason.

Jordan (36:09.582) Well, that's like, I think that's a really good reason because of course you come here for many reasons and they're all equally as good, but that's a very good one, especially for an artist and somebody trying to explore. Cause that's what's kept me here is that kind of like tolerance towards. Yeah, exactly. It is. It's unique place. I'm still here. I'm starting to think more about doing more stuff here now that I'm stuck here in a way. After the first seven years I hated it. I left.

like, yeah, was like, this place sucks. And now I found like, I mean, I now have like a nice living situation. And once again, I kind of set like the standards I have within my capacity. And I've carved out like a nice like living situation for myself.

Sophie (36:40.526) I can see that.

Sophie (36:56.792) I think that's what you have to do here. Like New York is very demanding and you can definitely. So how I perceive it is like there are very many different, almost like, like realms or like, like different layers of like, I don't want to say universes, but like different timelines maybe you can really get into like a, like a lane where you're, where it's going to, you know, bring out the worst in you. And it's like, it's such a hustle driven.

place. So you really have to like, stay very focused in what you are about and what you want to yourself or else it can destroy you. But I always like tell my friends, I'm like, New York demands so much of you and you have to apply yourself and you have to get all in and you have to like be like, you're so rooted in who you are. But if you do, she's also going to kind of like,

Jordan (37:34.198) once. Yeah, or else you

Jordan (37:50.828) Yeah.

Sophie (37:55.138) her energy can really accelerate.

Jordan (37:57.614) Yeah, it's true. Yeah, a way that's You're in trouble here, Yeah. You gotta be careful. Exactly.

Sophie (38:03.88) It can go both ways. It can definitely go both ways.

Jordan (38:08.056) That's very true. But that's kind of like what I've, same reason I feel like I've been here. Because once again, outside of like being in like a country place, which I'm not ready to fully like live in, realistically, I'm still like doing, I mean, I'm still getting a lot from here, but it is that like kind of like being in this community of people and artists and like, you know, it is a big city. And throughout time, these centers historically were like,

where you go to exchange ideas and make art and find money to make art and all this stuff, which is the other thing about New York, which is interesting, it's a big money city. For sure. So you have like this other element of like, not only is it a tough environment, just physically censored, it's loud and Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hum is kind of can drive me crazy after a while, just constant, vibrational hum here is what bothers me the most and the cars.

Sophie (39:06.627) Yeah.

Jordan (39:07.598) And I think that's like one thing, like if you talk about the masculine and feminine, like I say in New York, it's very masculine because of that like hum, that like kind of, that pulse of like, you know, not thinking about male or female necessarily, more like energetic masculine. And it has this like kind of like more pushing masculine type of, but that's fun to be in, know, that like, that's kind of why we're, that is like this push of, but then the work, I think my work tends to be more soft, feminine.

Sophie (39:14.03) interest.

Jordan (39:36.034) type of work, you know, which is kind of, find that balance here. Yeah. And I think people do a pretty, like even my restaurant was very soft. It was very like gentle. Like the materials were nice. It very minimal. was like people compared it to like a church. was kind of like the house actually. It feels like this type of like old, like softness materials. Yeah. It is a nice, like that house like keeps me grounded.

Sophie (39:38.647) so needed here as well.

Sophie (40:01.934) This is going to sound a little bonkers, but you I've become so unhinged in how I express myself. But I do believe that like, there's definitely like an overly leaning towards the masculine in New York because it is a tough city to live in, right? Like to make a living, you have to earn so much in comparison to other places. And then it can feel like everything you do, like your entire day is kind of like dictated by the hustle.

Jordan (40:31.149) Right.

Sophie (40:31.534) But I do believe that I'm here kind of like, cause my work is like, as you can see clearly, like the absolute opposite of, I don't even, like, I sometimes forget that the hustle exists.

Jordan (40:46.048) Me too, actually. have the same, yeah. And I think that's a good, that's probably what we like here. It's kind of one of things I like too. It's like, I do forget, I get in these modes where the hustle doesn't exist, you know? Yeah, exactly. And I think that's one. And also like I've gotten to a point, even though being in such a city obsessed with money and it's a part of my life is like learning to like realize like that isn't the root of happiness. No. It's not the intention of being here. Like even though.

it feels that way, especially at beginning of the month. it's like, and even then I'm like, okay, I just gave all my money again for rent and utilities or whatever it is. But it's also like, I don't even care. Like it doesn't, what does that mean? You it'll change. There's no question. Like it will change.

Sophie (41:17.88) Sure.

Sophie (41:31.778) Absolutely

Sophie (41:36.128) It will. And I'm just so determined to be able to prove that it's possible and to even like create like a good life from it, you know? I feel like that's why New York wants me here. Like I legitimately feel like it wasn't me who was like, I want to be in New York. It was New York who was like, you need to be here.

Jordan (41:46.562) Yeah, you can definitely create a good life.

Jordan (41:56.32) Yeah. I feel that way too, actually. really? Yes. Believe me. I was like... Can you love, right? Yeah. It was like kind of just with this, like taking on this house is like, my God, like what a... It's like a door opens and like I've learned to like not turn a blind eye to doors open. I love that. Like take a consideration. Like it doesn't always happen where somebody's gonna be like, do you want to this townhouse with only one month deposit? No credit checks, no security. You know, like...

Sophie (42:14.9) I love that.

Jordan (42:25.398) That's like the thing about New York and the professional life here is like, it's really the professional life, currency is who you know. Creating relationships for like the bigger work.

Sophie (42:35.352) to co-creation.

Jordan (42:36.908) Yeah, think, mean, absolutely. I think it's a constant state of co-creation.

Sophie (42:43.95) Totally. And I think New York is more susceptible to that than any other place.

Jordan (42:47.542) Yeah, I think so too like it's and it's also a place where people it's like there's no bullshit like yeah You know people need to make money here like you know that It's a difficult place to live if you go to an artist studio like you know they need sales. You know, they need People putting the word out about setters it like everybody needs you need to work here and I love working so I think that's like the other thing I like about here like you have to work and I that's I like I really love my work so it's

Sophie (43:03.576) Truly.

Sophie (43:13.186) Yeah.

Jordan (43:17.698) to give.

Sophie (43:18.178) That is beautiful. And I think that's kind of like where you have to start, you know, like I always talk about, so I created a life for myself as a lawyer without like really look good on paper and I was successful and I made money and I, you know, but it felt totally empty on the inside because like this reverse engineering of like, I created a life that looked perfect on paper. My thought was I have to create a life that looks good and then it's going to feel good.

Jordan (43:46.478) I'm

Sophie (43:46.924) And now I'm like trying the other like reverse approach of like, I want to create a life that feels good, that is able to sustain me also. You know what I mean? And you're just such a great role model, you know, to see you and to see the world that you created over those years. Like it just goes to show that like it is possible. And it's so beautiful to see.

Jordan (43:58.444) Absolutely.

Jordan (44:10.094) It's possible, yeah.

Sophie (44:14.338) Thank you. You know, and like it gives me so much hope and I like, and I mean, I had like all these questions and like this structure prepared because I wanted to touch on all the intricate butterfly elements of all of this because there's so much metamorphosis in there. There's so many like transformations and you know.

Jordan (44:34.05) Yeah, it's like for me, was a lot of trial by fire, especially in my twenties. The restaurant was like a big transformation. It tested me a lot and it like, it made me question purpose and like, why make money? Like, especially when I started getting into organic food, I remember like, it was like 2006 and I became friends with my neighbor at the cafe and he came in with his like infant son and he's like, can I get a glass of milk? And like, at that time we were just using industrial milk. And I was like.

She just had more of a conscience of what they serve. when she was a child. And I had just read books and, you of course there's more of my research about this. But back then I was reading a lot about like all the growth hormones and all this stuff in your milk and everything. And I was like, I should be more intentional. Like, and I really, there's like a Taoist problem that's like, at this time I was reading like the Dao Te Ching like nonstop. I still read a lot. And it was like, that's like, you know, the businessman should do what's,

a good for like the common good, know, like do what's good for the people. Yeah. And I that's like, it's, yeah, it's, think it's like, I took that very like seriously in a way where it was like, why not give people good things? Cause it's not just about money. If it's about money at the end, you're always going to be chasing with a hungry ghost. We were talking about this term last night, hungry ghost. do you know this term? This type term or something where it's like you're

Sophie (45:37.07) Good for you too.

Sophie (45:58.222) If

Jordan (46:02.988) You're so, like, I forget, it's like you're never satiated. You're never satisfied. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. You're always seeking. You're always wanting more. You're always wanting more. It's true. You can become that. But yeah, the transformations were really cool. I had to like lean into them because I was changing a lot, like rapid.

Sophie (46:20.076) Yeah, I bet.

Jordan (46:21.07) And I was like, kind of like this little cafe was like became like a like an extension of my inner self to a point where my identity started to get wrapped up into it and then it became negative for me and that's when I stopped. I kind of left the city to cool off for a little bit before I came back. I got retreated to the hills literally to the mountains and like started making pots all the time and built this little business of pottery but there was a lot of transformation there and kind of this

Sophie (46:42.84) sick though.

Jordan (46:50.072) Yeah, learning to accept that is one of hardest things too. And sometimes it's wise, sometimes it's unwise maybe. But I think there's always truth in all these things. And I also really have a nice thing, especially when I was making big decisions and worrying more about things in my life, that good will come out of all these things. I think that's like, good will come out of this, type of concept is something that I really believe in, no matter what it is. You have to focus on like,

the good, the truth will come out of even these bad situations or this. And I think that's the type of optimism that I carry with me. Because if you don't have optimism, like we kind of talked about earlier, like, it's a difficult world. Like it's very difficult just existing in this world. And if you're pessimistic on top of it, you're kind of like doubly, you know, bad shape.

Sophie (47:22.389) I think so.

Sophie (47:39.766) I just think you can be super cynical about it and say like, it just doesn't make any sense to be pessimistic because that's the place from where you're going to operate and that's the energy you put out and that's what you're going to get back. So for me, it's like, you know, I believe in magic and I believe that the butterflies guide me, but it's not so much about like, I'm never going to have a conversation with everyone.

proving like trying to prove magic is real because I don't a fuck. I just know that like if I believe it for myself, it makes my life 10 times better because it makes my day more juicy. So I show up differently and that creates better situations and better opportunities for me. So it's like it's a no brainer to believe in those things because it's from where you create and from what energy you put out and what energy is going to ripple back to you.

Jordan (48:31.822) Yeah, and it's like you're you're dealing with power, know, you're dealing with real power like not throwing money around power like like intentional power like the being a powerful force in our life I think that's like Having empowerment. Yeah agency exactly. Well, that's the problem with agencies aware I think about a lot with relationships like if you lose agency in a relationship, which I've seen so much and I've experienced on my own that's where the spirit can really die

Sophie (48:45.208) Definitely.

Jordan (49:01.1) Yeah, that's what And that can break you. And some dynamics between partners, really, that loss of agency can accelerate between two people quickly. Or one cancels out the other.

Sophie (49:16.733) And it happens, you know, it's

Jordan (49:18.314) It definitely happens. I've been in this situation. Same. And even that, you learn good things from it. You have to transform out of it. for too. it's like, agency is very important. But to have that throughout your day-to-day life for me is one reason I've chosen the Lifelight, because it's so important to me. Yeah. I just know the freedom I like. But I'm also always open to challenge. Sometimes I get myself in trouble, because I want more challenge.

Sophie (49:33.646) sure.

Sophie (49:42.818) What, what, what is like?

Jordan (49:44.61) How would you? Building out a studio, like renting a townhouse in Brooklyn. These are like unconventional moves. They're not like wise financial moves.

Sophie (49:49.58) Sophie (49:55.214) Yeah, but then your life is just 10 times more juicy than...

Jordan (50:01.996) Yeah, for sure. It's a living entity. Yeah. Living, evolving, like... Life, which I appreciate. Like, I love that. I wouldn't trade that out for like financial security and getting bored. No. But yeah, even in partnership, that's hard. in the past, even when I've dated, had girlfriends where that's sometimes hard to be with somebody like that. The way I am, because it goes against the grain, which maybe is why I've never been married at 43 years old. But...

Sophie (50:06.85) which...

Sophie (50:31.406) That's why I'm chronically single.

Jordan (50:33.132) Yeah, it's like there is that type of thing that can like, especially when I was younger, I think I was more rash in my decisions and drastic. think that's hard to be a partner of, whether it be a romantic partner or even like co-working or whatever. know, like it can be tough. But I've learned to like kind of make more calculated moves over the years. Like I haven't like, the ambition hasn't stopped. It's still there. It's just like a little, hopefully wiser.

Sophie (51:02.626) Yeah, it's a learning.

Jordan (51:03.406) Yeah, like I know how to execute things a little more, you know, fluidly.

Sophie (51:08.27) That's a learning curve, definitely. To me, I have this hunger for life and what feels alive. And I always explain this to people. So I think my English is pretty good for someone who didn't grow up in an English-speaking country. Yeah, of course. And it's funny because I had French first in school, but my French is almost inexistent.

I was always so fascinated with the English language and I made my mom get me classes even before I had it at school, which is such a weird thing for a child to ask.

Jordan (51:44.007) Yeah, you kind of, you had this sense that you wanted to be here.

Sophie (51:47.854) Exactly. I do believe that a part of me kind of knew that this language is going to be important for me. And so I followed this and like, look at me today. all my work essentially is, is English. So yeah, like following things that feel alive. Like I was such a rebellious kid. Like I, I hated school. I almost never went. And I, I always wanted to go against the grain. always wanted to go.

Jordan (51:53.838) Yeah.

Jordan (52:00.972) In English now? Is in English now.

Sophie (52:17.07) I always like, like my mom had such a hard time getting me to school. I, cause I hated being forced to learn stuff that I felt like I knew what was necessary for me what was important to me and what wasn't. And looking back, it's like, knew, I definitely knew. And I didn't, I almost didn't go to school and I still ended up like with an excellent education. I like made it all the way. You know what I mean? Like it's like, leave me the fuck alone.

Jordan (52:32.588) Yeah

Jordan (52:43.072) Yes. Yeah. And I mean, I think it's good to go through those. I think that's the one good thing about schooling stuff is to learn that that's not for you. think those experiences like are very good for that knowing like, like I knew at 23, like I wasn't really that hireable as an employee. Like every time I was an employee, I was trying to like start coups, overthrow the management. You know, like just insubordinate. Like in high school I had perfect attendance.

Sophie (52:51.607) Yeah, sure.

Jordan (53:13.138) and was like a D student and in detention like constantly. But I went to school like I never missed school. I didn't miss classes. I did. And it was a weird like because I liked the social. So I like I didn't miss it because I didn't want to miss out on like fun with my friends but fun with my friends. did miss my friends. Getting in trouble. And yeah it ended up at one point I just like realized like employment is not for me. Yeah.

Sophie (53:29.166) That's it.

Jordan (53:41.611) And I kind of went with that.

Sophie (53:44.692) You clearly did, I mean...

Jordan (53:46.284) It was like, wasn't even an option, I feel like.

Sophie (53:50.124) Yeah, to each their own. I'm not saying employment is anything bad.

Jordan (53:53.294) No, it's great. mean, I think some people like a lot of people thrive in that structure. That's something I actually really learned from hiring people. it's a bit of a hard lesson that I even manage because some people want to be told what to do. Some people want to be given a list, right? They want to be told what to do. Like, here's a list of what to do. And that makes them happy. Other people want to wake up and make their own list. A friend of mine said this to me the other day. think it was really wise. was like, there's this kind of like these personalities where

There's a type of person that's gonna get up and get it done. And there's the other personalities that are, wanna be told what to be done, and that's gonna actually give them a lot of peace. And so I had to realize that, I'm not the told to be person. I need to make up my own program.

Sophie (54:31.726) To it.

Sophie (54:43.714) and we spoke.

Jordan (54:45.054) Right, without the other you couldn't have it. But the way I work with two of the people I work with, I work with three people now. Two of them are the ones that make the pots up throwing in the pottery. And they're very much that. And it's taken me, at first for one of them, he liked working that way. And then the other one who I work with, really likes working this way now. But I have a feeling, and it's not a bad thing, but I think it was like a little more of an adjustment. And now she's like, I see.

Freedom of schedule is nice. Learn a skill so you have freedom. Learn how to trade so you have freedom. That's kind of what I approach it as. Having a skill set is a really good thing to have to give you that freedom. You can't just ask for freedom unless you have independent wealth. You have to be able to back up these choices of freedom. Where it's like, how are you going engage in the world and make a living?

Sophie (55:37.816) Definitely, There's a fee of service in one way or another.

Jordan (55:42.4) Yeah, exactly. Not just self-serving.

Sophie (55:45.75) No, yeah, that again is like, mean, to be of service can be self-serving. You know what I mean? It doesn't have to be one or the other. It can actually be both. And it's probably, it can only actually be both, I think. It's like, ultimately I do believe everyone kind of like wants to leave a mark in one way or another.

Jordan (55:51.99) Yeah, for sure.

Jordan (56:07.382) Mm-hmm. I think so.

Sophie (56:09.262) You can do that in a juicy way that actually is fun and good and excites you. That's kind of what I'm working on. I want to be a role model to be like, can actually create a juicy life for yourself.

Jordan (56:25.664) Yeah, that's you-

Sophie (56:27.144) provides for you and you provide something for others through that. You don't have to self-sacrifice, you don't have to exploit yourself or others.

Jordan (56:37.07) Exactly. that's, yes. Well, that's a very big challenge. And that's, I think, I've been thinking about this a lot, like over the years is like, and experimenting with it through working with people is like, how do you create work environments that aren't exploited? And it's, it's interesting. Like I could talk a lot about this. It's hard to like formulate it, but the, there's a couple of things. One thing that inspired me is these,

Sophie (56:58.125) See you

Jordan (57:07.47) Helen and Scott Nearing are this couple that in the 1930s, they left New York and like moved up to Vermont and started homesteading, like living off the land simply. Growing their own food, so writing about it, they're very radical. Like we are leaving the industrial complex, we're leaving this capitalist system, we're going back to like a more simple, natural, self-sufficient lifestyle. They're very inspired by Thoreau and Emerson, you the Transcendentalists, you know, these guys. So this is kind of like, they're really the next

champions of this type of thought. The New York and kind of in my opinion, like they were like a couple generations later, but like very much like let's, you know, and the arts and crafts movement coming out of England, like these kinds of like cottage industries reopening, like people turning their back on industrialization, which is inherently exploited. that's been enough. And they were inspiring because they're saying in their books, they write a lot about like, if you know what you need,

you can hit that mark and you can live a good life. Like if you know who you are, what you need, like to be happy, to be free, to be fulfilled, and they kind of talk about their ways of doing that. Like that's an attainable thing without exploiting other people. The problem is where you think there's an unlimited potential for gain in the sense where it's like, I need as much as I can and there's no limit to it. Like I need more, I need more, I need more, I need more. And that's kind of the, more is the goal.

And they're saying like, let's grow enough food that will supply us for our living for the year, because next year we'll give us again. You know, it's kind of this faith, it's like more balanced in rhythm with the cycle. This is the way, you know, people lived before this industrial age, it was like more in this kind of rhythm with nature of like, hey, we don't need to like stockpile all these things and let it rot. And like this kind of like sense of, you know, deterioration that we have in our lives of like crap piling up.

live fluidly, live in tune with natural cycles, know that next year there's gonna be another harvest. Have faith in that, you know? Because everybody catastrophizes even food systems in our day and age. Like, there's not gonna be enough food. It's like this constant, like, and when you look throughout, people have been living simply for millennia, you know? Yeah. And I think that's something that I've always solved with my work is like, don't think about a way to like, have an unlimited concept of like, I need to get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and grow and grow and and and and grow and

Jordan (59:33.13) find out a system that makes you happy within your, and that can take years to find, but work towards that. I think that's like something that I've been really working at, you know?

Sophie (59:43.976) I think two things that come to mind. One thing is like sends to me a lot like, you know, organic growth versus blowing up. You know, I feel like

Jordan (59:53.294) Like starting a brand with never making anything. This is a big one now. It's like, here's my brand, we're gonna launch it, I'm gonna invest in it. But I've never done a G-flip.

Sophie (01:00:01.674) Exactly. And like the beauty of organic growth, like understanding that the magic actually happens in the process more than anything. And like, I feel like we now came to an understanding in terms of produce. Like a lot of people understand that organic produce, even though it's more expensive, even though there's less of it, even though it takes longer, there is a value in that.

Jordan (01:00:27.79) Yeah, for sure.

Sophie (01:00:29.218) And I feel like we just need to understand, like we can...

Jordan (01:00:31.854) Well, organic and also local food systems too.

Sophie (01:00:34.388) Of course, yeah. mean, that all ties together. But like, in a more like philosophical way of looking at it, just, it goes back to trust,

Jordan (01:00:44.62) Yeah, faith, trust.

Sophie (01:00:46.932) And like if you don't have faith, you need everything to happen right now, right here, because it could die and...

Jordan (01:00:52.686) Exactly. The world's ending. This whole catastrophizing is all to sell more crap to people. It's all about sales. This other thing that drives me crazy about all this technology we have, all this potential for free energy to help people. The big part of our technology is collecting data to sell people more shit. It's very frustrating to me. Everybody's buying into this hyper...

You're just now like there's not anything other than that really going on, which is very sad. mean, that's very vague statement, but you know, I mean, it's like, there's so much. It's like collecting data to sell you more.

Sophie (01:01:26.126) I mean, lot of that is-

I it's the only thing that's going on, but yeah, it's... You know what I think is the most astonishing thing about this is like, this approach still requires so much energy.

Jordan (01:01:46.636) Yes. You put tons. These data centers for you to look up like some stupid AI question is like destroying like, like local ecosystems.

Sophie (01:01:48.864) of energy.

Sophie (01:01:57.88) Like we could put the same energy into something that where there's actually like a hard coherence. You could put the exact same energy into that. And it would actually like reverberate back in a way that would genuinely make us feel better. Because those things, like you said, they're kind of hollow. They don't ever reverberate back. And that's why you need more and more and more because they'd never reverberate in a way back that actually like

Jordan (01:02:05.442) Yeah.

Sophie (01:02:27.842) Gives you a sense of fulfillment.

Jordan (01:02:29.386) Yeah, exactly.

Sophie (01:02:31.192) But yeah, to me it's so mind blowing that those things require so much energy and like people don't see that they could put the same energy into something that would give them back in a way that like.

Jordan (01:02:44.696) Because they don't know what they want and that's the thing. Like there's so much confusion as to what people want and what's...

Sophie (01:02:52.27) For sure, but that's again, like why I wanna do this and why I'm like determined to make this work because I wanna be able to be like, whatever you do is like, you can actually do something that is like cool and like that fulfills you and provides you.

Jordan (01:03:08.216) Yeah. Absolutely. But I think it's, for me, the big mental challenge is not looking at like my tablet, Instagram, and stuff like that. Yeah. Like I have a flip phone, which is step in the right direction, but I have this tablet that I look at.

Sophie (01:03:26.958) But it's, I think what you were saying also and what you're doing so beautifully, think it's just, again, you have to take yourself seriously. You have to like take yourself as your own experiment and like find ways and approaches and concepts that really work for you. And for you, it's like having a flip phone.

Jordan (01:03:45.71) Right, it's like a little discipline. Yeah.

Sophie (01:03:49.208) But it makes so much sense. And I feel like if you approach it that way, it's like so playful. It can be so playful and fun. You get to know yourself and also what you said earlier about, you know, putting out what lives on the inside of you. And I think that's what I love seeing. And that's kind of like the only creatives that I'm truly drawn to are the ones where I feel like they cultivated the garden within themselves and what they create on the outside is really just a reflection.

Jordan (01:04:16.846) Yeah.

Sophie (01:04:17.772) And that to me is like the coolest thing. And like, yeah, I mean, you said it yourself, but like that's what I see when I look at your work.

Jordan (01:04:25.102) That's cool, that's good hear. It's very nice to hear because you can get, one can get lost in their work, you know. I'm not like showing paintings and my other work now, which I'd like to start. So I'm in this really interesting period of development right now that it's a good period, but I'm also interested in sharing my work more widely.

Sophie (01:04:47.542) You mentioned so many obstacles that you encountered during this course of yours. And yet you're still here and you're still determined to live your life the way you do in this beautiful fluid way. In your words, what would you describe, like what are the benefits or what keeps you going?

Jordan (01:05:07.598) That's a good question. I think for me there is something that service is a big part of it in a weird way. Like being of service to others I think is a high problem that we should all play into. I try to think sometimes that can keep me going with thinking like how can I serve others whether that's just through like living an intentional life that inspires other, you know? I think a big part of it is inspiring, being inspired myself and also like

inspiring others, like doing something like this is nice to hear that, oh, there is some inspiration that's coming through because, you know, and I think that's part of a service is like doing things that can help shift the consciousness of people. And for me, it's like, it's nice to find my own way, but also once again, like see how that can be an example, especially now that I've been doing it for some, some years living this way, having some perspective on it, which is kind of a unique thing to me now that I'm

Sophie (01:05:44.055) one minute.

Definitely.

Jordan (01:06:07.598) 43 and like, oh, I can now look at like a couple of decades as an adult now and see how this thing work or that thing work. Yeah. inspired or how meeting this person inspired me so much and how somebody meeting me inspired them to do this. So we see these things kind of, yeah, and play out. that's can keep me going. mean, it's and yeah, there is something like once again, it's kind of like the thing I saying earlier, it's like both just like.

Sophie (01:06:21.846) interconnect.

Jordan (01:06:36.758) balance of action and listening that can give you inspiration. If you give yourself time, you'll find the inspiration, but it's not always easy. But I've learned to take it easy on myself, not be myself. I'm learning to get rid of you should this, you should that narrative in my head. And getting rid of that actually inspires me to work. And with the ceramics, for instance, each part of my life, and I try to have these, I am pretty good at compartmentalizing things.

Sophie (01:06:45.557) No.

Jordan (01:07:06.518) The ceramics has been interesting because now I'm like teaching other people, not in a class sense, but like the three people with me that work with me. I usually tend to, at the restaurant I could fire people very quickly because I kind of know how I work and who I work with quickly. But I have many relationships where I've worked with people for a very long time and I like that, know, like long standing collaborations and kind of planting those seeds and watching them grow is very inspiring as well as like

with the ceramics, like it's a craft that's ancient. Like I'm one of the few studios that we handmade. It's not cast, it's like skilled, real throwing. And that's inspiring to like keep that like, and keeps me going to keep that tradition alive. You're part of something bigger than just that, you know.

Sophie (01:07:54.062) So I have like this closing ritual, which is like a thought felt experiment. As you know, I'm trying to find out if we connect kind of like to future parts of us, especially collectively, because as I said, as a former lawyer, I'm very interested in how a collective organizes itself and how we can evolve from our current structures. Because I feel like just evolutionary, like I feel like we've grown out of them and we don't really know what to do.

Jordan (01:08:24.462) just over the last thousand years or so or more.

Sophie (01:08:27.246) And I feel like that's kind of like why things feel like in disarray so much or like feel like things are crumbling a little bit is more like, again, to me, it's like more, more like an evolutionary. More than like, moralizing it in any way or be like, ah, it's bad or it's what we're doing or whatever. So what I want to do with you is like, I want you to like tap in.

to how your body feels when you think about the current state of the world. And I'm not, again, it's not about moralizing, it's not about like saying what is bad and what is good, but rather like how does it feel in your body if you like, yeah, if you tap into the current waves, energies that are going on.

Jordan (01:09:14.87) like related to myself or to the state of the world or something. Collective? I always have, I think it's the same as it's always been. I don't really think anything's that new. This concept of like a linear life and this linear thing happening is to me a very limited way of looking at the world. So now versus then, I don't think there's much difference. I think there are major like

Sophie (01:09:19.126) Yeah, let's say the collective.

Jordan (01:09:44.834) technological differences and things like this, but the core of people and people the way people interact and everything, I feel it's, I don't feel bad or good about it. I just, I feel like there's always infinite potential. You know, yeah, just, I think that's always been there for sure.

Sophie (01:10:07.933) It's such an interesting answer because it kind of like, totally doesn't work with my experiment, but it doesn't matter because it like, what I'm trying to do with this experiment is kind of like applying the butterfly as a symbol, as a thought experiment. But you don't feed into that doom's ideology, like a lot of people do, right? And like, what if we apply the symbol of the butterfly and be like, instead of being like everything is, everything is fucked.

We're screwed, like, be like, what if we're just in a state of chrysalis? And a state of chrysalis is inherently like, you know, this remembering a lot of things that are in flux. Like a caterpillar completely dissolves before it turns into a butterfly. That state is very necessary. And we talked about this in terms of your life. Like, you've been in a state of chrysalis more than once, right?

Jordan (01:10:57.582) you

Sophie (01:11:04.302) I think that a lot like I look at life, my life, other people's lives, the life of the collective. look everything as like butterflies within butterflies within butterflies. And then it's one big butterfly. And in the sense, and it ties back to what you just said is like, it's always the same creature. It's always the same creature. Nothing goes out, nothing goes in. It's just like, it's shape shifts. It transforms. And that's kind of like what I'm trying to do with this project also is to kind of like.

Jordan (01:11:20.802) Yeah, exactly.

Sophie (01:11:33.068) tap into that and be like, hey, metamorphosis is actually something beautiful. Yeah. Necessary, something that is inherently life. I have a friend and he said, he sees in a lot of people, like little caterpillars that are afraid to go into the state of chrysalis and they're just like, you know, resisting the chrysalis so much. that the resistance is actually what

causes the suffering, right? It's not the state of disembodiment is not, that doesn't cause suffering, but the state of resistance is what causes suffering.

Jordan (01:12:14.25) Yeah, absolutely. It's going against, holding on, pushing back. You can suffer a lot instead of letting the transitions happen.

Sophie (01:12:24.738) Yeah, so my second question would have been, and again, it's like, you're very tapped into that. Like time is just a concept. Everything happens kind of at the same time. Everything is the same. If we tapped into like a butterfly state of the collective, assuming that we're in a Chrysler's phase, how would the state of the butterfly feel like in your body? Not in terms of like, you know, I don't want your head to be like.

Jordan (01:12:48.258) Yeah.

Sophie (01:12:51.296) No, but like, I don't know how that would look like because that's kind like where we get lost, right? Like just in your body, like how would a butterfly state of the collective feel like?

Jordan (01:13:00.814) I feel like I've had these states, I guess. I would imagine the butterfly state or how I'd interpret it is kind of this, know, feeling of lightness and beauty and color and you're like floating around with flowers. I actually grow a lot of flowers that attract butterflies, you know. I love I have like tons of butterflies in the garden. It's come, you know, the warmer weather. But I think throughout my life, which is really interesting, I've had these different cycles in many ways of this, like, and I think that's...

The butterfly being this part of nature where this cycle happens, this metamorphosis is very much like we go through many of these in our lives. And we don't go through them at the same time. like where some people are saying it's doom and gloom right now, there's a whole nother half that's saying it's the greatest times right now. It's wild. It's like you can, and it's very clear in this country, you have this kind of very...

very like yes or no. Contrasting. Yeah, contrasting. Dichotomy. Yeah, exactly. It's very strong binary thing. Very much like you're either with us or against us. This is like the big US agenda call. But yeah, think regardless of the, within the bigger picture, certain groups are gonna go through and other groups aren't. If you live in a place that's been hit by a natural disaster, you're gonna have different phases. You're gonna go through that.

And I think that's something that is all in our personal journey, but as well, it does relate to the collective. And I think that's once again why it's like, I make small things of doing little dinners at my house and at my studio and buying from the farmer's market instead of the grocery store. you know, putting my money where my beliefs are in a lot of ways. this pretty much, I think pretty consciously I practice this type of thing. But yeah, even on the emotional and spiritual realm I've had, I can look at periods

since I was like, my whole life really, I can think of like, even going through grade school and middle school, there's been periods of like, which I know there's these great periods of like everything. And I look back like, oh, those two years of 11th and 12th grade were great, where ninth and 10th grade were just like, I was in the cocoon, I was developing, I was lost. And then all of a sudden you like, and then I went back into that phase a few years later. And I kind of like observing those phases and I'm aware of when I'm in them.

Jordan (01:15:25.016) course a party wants to stay or me I should say wants to stay in this like kind of butterfly phase but without that you know you would get tired of it and I think that's this interesting thing about suffering in life and this kind of cycle of where maybe the contrast is the beauty and maybe the this is a good example of this because how can you know the light without the dark type of thing and I think once again like you said finding balance is one of these beautiful I find the same way like that's kind of

that feeling, but I think we're always in this type of cycle is always happening for different people all the time. I think it's good to remember that. And also not judge or compare. Like when somebody's down, you don't need to see to their level, but maybe you being a butterfly can inspire the cocoon. So maybe it's a more of a reason to follow your heart and do your thing and show people. And then other times you're down and you need somebody to show you life. This kind of like freedom and lightness. And I see it with relationships and friends.

cycles of old friends throughout the years. I remember one time a friend called me, I had just broken up with a girlfriend, he was just getting engaged. And then the reverse happened like 10 years later. You know, and it's like, you, it's nice to see like, be content yourself and don't be too like, jealous or envious or chasing this experience that's not yours. Like trust the process of this kind of like evolution and metamorphosis into the butterflies. Like a good thing to accept in life.

We're going to have this throughout. think that's the circular thing of it.

Sophie (01:16:55.022) No, that's what I meant before is like, feel like my life consists of like even like there's this large scale butterfly of like my life, right? It's like one big arc. then like within that, there's so many different tiny arcs on different levels. It's like my love life and then my career. like, there's so many different like butterflies within the butterflies. There's intricate butterflies and then there's...

butterflies in like a diagonal way and then me being this universe of butterflies kind of like contributes to even a bigger universe of like my city but then also like the whole collective and like the entire world so that's kind of like how I look at the entirety of.

Jordan (01:17:41.102) You're the butterfly but you're also the garden. Yeah, you're also the earth, you're also the sky. It's true, we hold all of this. We hold all of this. We are all of it. It is true. We're part of the greater universal consciousness. We're not in separate.

Sophie (01:17:45.751) Absolutely.

Sophie (01:17:52.376) Where are all the...

Sophie (01:17:59.16) No.

Sophie (01:18:08.654) If this episode stirred something in you, I'd love to hear about it. Send me little whisper on Instagram at fairytea.podcast or just write the words fairy wings in my DMs. That's how I'll know you were here.

Jordan (01:18:36.838) This was a 6-2 studio production. Find us at six-two.studio for all your creative sound needs.