Metamorphosis with Melissa

What if the chaos in your life wasn’t something to fix, but something to trust?

Today, I’m creating butterfly postcards in the studio with my guest Melissa as we explore the quiet, powerful transformations woven through her life. Through motherhood, art, and community, we look at how growth doesn’t happen all at once but that it unfolds in layers, over time.

Melissa shares her journey of navigating different identities and environments, and how each phase has shaped her. We talk about the role of community, not just as something we desire, but something we have to actively learn how to be part of and the subtle ways it challenges and expands us.

This episode is for anyone moving through change, craving deeper connection, or learning how to hold multiple versions of themselves at once.

Highlights:

• The role of community in shaping who we become across different phases of life
• Navigating multiple identities — motherhood, art, and self-expression — at once
• Creating space between you and your thoughts to find clarity and calm
• The snowfall metaphor as a way to understand and release mental overwhelm
• How pressure and discomfort often initiate meaningful personal growth
• Balancing control and surrender in the midst of everyday life

About Melissa:

Melissa Callender is a Brooklyn-based artist, writer, yoga teacher, and postpartum doula whose work explores patience, transition, and embodied attention. Working primarily through blind contour drawing and text, her practice centers on slowness as both method and ethic. Offering herself an invitation to remain present with what is unfolding rather than rushing toward resolution.

Drawing from her background in yoga and meditation, Melissa’s work is deeply informed by listening: to the body, to breath, to subtle internal rhythms. Her interdisciplinary approach reflects a longstanding interest in thresholds, thresholds between rest and effort, holding and releasing, certainty and unknowing. Alongside her visual practice, she is a writer whose work often parallels similar themes of care, inner life, and the quiet labor of becoming.

Melissa is a BFA graduate from The School of the Art Institute of Chicago, where she studied design and woodworking. She now teaches yoga and meditation, and leads workshops that integrate creativity, embodiment, and reflection. Through both her art and teaching, she creates spaces that value process over product and tenderness over mastery, encouraging a softened relationship to attention, time, and imperfection.

Find Melissa on Instagram: @yoga_lilac, lessons_in_patience

Fairy Tea is produced by Six-Two Studio.

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Fairy Tea is a deeply personal podcast where I share the raw, honest messiness of life, exploring how to break free from societal expectations and follow the heart’s calling. Blending storytelling, spirituality, folklore, and self-discovery, Fairy Tea is both magical and real, whimsical yet grounded. It’s a space to embrace uncertainty, face challenges without fear, and stay curious about the possibilities ahead. Through my experiences, I invite listeners to see that a new way of living is possible — one that is intuitive, soulful, and uniquely their own.

Instagram: @fairytea.podcast or @akayourfairygodmother
Email: akayourfairygodmother@gmail.com

Transcript

Melissa (00:00.3) You know, I like his take on it too, how we're ultimately separate from our mind. Like it's not one of the same. So the way you just described it is reminds me of that because it's like the way you described it, you separated yourself from your thoughts. You know, it like you were having a conversation with someone else. Like, you know, they're very creative. Like they came up with the same. You know, and like that idea that even just wording it that way.

Sophie (00:21.654) What's going on here?

Melissa (00:28.312) kind of shows you or proves that they're slightly different entities.

Sophie (00:33.88) I think we talked about this too, like to create like spaciousness for yourself. think that's one big thing. And I mean, I'm saying this and I, all of this, you don't know me that well, but I'm saying all of this and all the that I learned, I only learned because I was suffering so much, right? It was like heavy, heavy, heavy suffering and pressure. was like, I need to rise to the occasion.

Melissa (00:47.906) Little.

Melissa (00:53.707) yeah.

Melissa (00:59.958) right right

Sophie (01:00.834) This is not a way I want to live anymore, so I have to like get creative.

Sophie (01:07.522) Welcome to Fairy Tea, where we sip on the thorough wisdom of the fairy realm and uncover its ancient secrets for healing, pleasure and rest. I'm your host Sophie, here to sprinkle a little enchantment into your everyday life. Think of this as one great unfolding experiment. An invitation to dance with magic, trust the unseen and let curiosity lead the way.

Sophie (01:42.924) All right, welcome, Melissa. Thank you. So happy to have you. we're gonna do today is we're gonna create some butterflies together.

Melissa (01:45.016) Thank you.

Melissa (01:51.054) Yes, yes I've heard. Well, I'm excited.

Sophie (01:53.624) So I'm currently running this Artisan Residency, which is part like this podcast season. So what we're doing right now is the project that I'm running in this space in Williamsburg. And we met because you also ran a space in this studio and we got introduced and like we started talking and right off the bat, I feel like we kind of like, there were so many topics that we had like shared interests on and we just like, we.

Melissa (02:03.16) Right.

Sophie (02:23.074) had a hard time stop talking. So I was like, we should totally do this on the Fox. And I like to introduce people like this because I think A, it's beautiful how like two lives kind of like suddenly intertwine and B, it's like a testament on its own kind of for the butterfly effect, right? Like this space kind of like connected us. If it wasn't for this space, we both wouldn't be here.

Melissa (02:43.214) True, yeah.

Melissa (02:50.112) Right, right. And I don't know where we would have met probably. Yeah. Never. Right. Or just like in passing or something. Yeah. know, like brush shoulders at a gallery show or something.

Sophie (02:53.678) Probably.

Sophie (03:01.198) Maybe we walk past each other.

Melissa (03:03.446) Already, like, right? We wouldn't even know.

Sophie (03:06.566) Who knows? But yeah, it's so interesting, like what kind of people stumble into your life and then people stumble out of it, obviously. You cannot really plan for it and yet somehow it seems divinely orchestrated.

Melissa (03:22.094) Right,

Sophie (03:24.536) So yeah, we don't know each other that well, but I felt like we had like a good.

Melissa (03:30.399) We have like very random common interests.

Sophie (03:33.006) Yeah, and one thing led to another, led to another. We went down, think, seven rabbit holes within the span of 20 minutes.

Melissa (03:38.69) I think so too.

Melissa (03:43.958) Right, right, not even that long, yeah. And that's like exactly what I was kind of hoping for with, you know, this studio experience. Because I was first just looking for a studio, you know, because I wanted to explore a little bit more in my art and my writing. And, you know, I'm very grateful for my family at home, but, you know, we all take up a lot of space. Of course. You know, my dog will like run into the room and knock something over.

You know, my daughter will like, you know, want to get her hands and stuff. So was like, it might be nice to, and even in my art, even in my yoga studio, I'm there a lot, but there's not a lot of like extra space to like work, you know, even if I'm like checking emails and stuff. Yeah. So was like, okay, it could be nice to just find a studio. at first I was just looking at kind of like regular studios, you know, like the way you would rent like an office space or something. And then I was so grateful because I found here,

And it was the first place that I saw that was like an artist community. And I've just been diving so much more into community for the past maybe like five or so years. Well, I went to art school in Chicago, like I told you. So that was like a very like community-based, you know. I imagine it's like most other art schools from what I've heard, you know, you have your crits and like, you know, you have your friends and it's that college experience. But then on top of that, like,

You're constantly talking about your work and figuring out ways to talk about other people's work. And I loved it, but I didn't have anything like that, at least not in the same sentence. Yeah, of course. So, you know, that kind of ended. And then when I had my daughter, that like creates your own community too. Sure. You know, you find your community of mothers and...

You enhance your own community with like your family and your friends, and then your friends start having kids and then that adds to the community. And I became very interested in community at that point too, because that's like has its whole history with it too. That like, you know, that can be another tangent. I go on accidentally, but like, you know, the way we raise our families in this country is just like not the way we're supposed to. You know, back in the day you would like literally live on one big property.

Melissa (06:06.06) with dozens of people and you would all just help each other, raise each other's kids and help grow food. And it literally was a village. Like we say now, but that's literally what it was like. So a lot of parents these days, they're struggling or striving for that community because they feel like they're probably missing something, but they're not sure what it is because it's hard to have what I just described. How many people are living on a farm?

with like a few dozen people to like help each other take care of each other's I would love that. But, so you you really strive for community in that time. Then when I started teaching yoga at a Rye studio, primarily that one of the pillars is community. know, like, especially as the manager, like I'm talking to people all the time and the yoga environment is such a special environment because

People do feel really connected to their teachers. They feel very connected to the practice. You can get super personal with people, super connected to people. So community is really enhanced to that too, you know? So I didn't even know that that's what I would have wanted from this experience, the studio experience. But when I saw it was an option, I was like, that sounds so much better. You know? So the priority, I guess, was like, okay, I have this extra space now to focus and, you know,

expand my scale and all that stuff. But a huge part of it was to be able to connect with other people, like-minded people, you know? Especially since it was an art space because the other forms of community I have right now weren't so, like, art-focused. It was the yoga, or the mother-nanny, you know? Which is great, but that was, like, the third thing that I was probably, like, missing, I guess.

Sophie (07:53.888) Yeah, it's kind of beautiful how you like, you have different parts and you nurture different parts in different ways. So you need like for your role as a mother, you need to, you want a community of mothers and then for your role as a yoga teacher, you have this community of yoga people. And then for your, for your role as an artist, also like, yeah. it's, those are all you, right? Those are all the parts of you and like integrating that and like.

Melissa (08:13.678) Dang, I my RP.

Sophie (08:22.86) honoring those nuances. I would have thought that, especially in New York, there would be so many spaces we would offer this.

Melissa (08:30.36) Yeah, I guess not. Or maybe I found it pretty early, but it was definitely more like the more isolated, like, you know, have your space and there be a full wall here, you know, a full door between you and the next person. So I would imagine it would take more effort to connect with people. I know me too.

Sophie (08:47.022) It's interesting. I'm so glad you found it. I mean, it's cool because it probably is also a thing that resonates with specific kinds of people. It's not. It's probably not for everyone, which is perfectly fine, but...

Melissa (09:03.662) Right, like maybe you do need that isolated environment to like work properly. for sure. Totally valid.

Sophie (09:10.232) Funnily enough, when I applied for the residency, I didn't really know what I was up for. So I got here and like, I replied with this podcast project. And I got here and I saw there was no like actual like closed off space. Fuck, how am I supposed to do that? Primarily thinking in my guests and thinking like, well, this is very intimate what we're discussing. There can be lots of people around all the time.

Melissa (09:26.21) We're right.

Sophie (09:39.064) How can I create an environment that people still feel comfortable? In the beginning, I was like, so scared. was like, fuck my life. But then I was just, I kind of just tried to like rise to the occasion and be like, well, let's make this an intricate part of it. Like, let's like, I tried to reframe it as the, one of the challenges within this. You know, and be like, hey, maybe I want to like change my own relationship towards the idea of privacy.

Melissa (10:07.416) Good point, yeah.

Sophie (10:09.302) I gave myself a lot of time in the beginning to just be able to feel out the space, to feel out the people that are here. Yeah, and now I almost feel like it's kind of beautiful to do this in a setting like this. It's so unusual.

Melissa (10:22.464) Yeah, next time you have like a more private space, might like be like, actually, can I take this wall down?

Sophie (10:27.374) Totally, because it's again, it it ties back to the sense of community. I think what you just said about community and not like we're not doing this the right way. It's like we're also not used to it.

Melissa (10:41.262) Right, yeah, you need to get into that space of being a little like maybe even uncomfortable or like, know, that moment that you just kind of have to like adjust and be like, oh wait, this works too.

Sophie (10:52.418) You of have to push your boundaries mentally, physically, spiritually to be like, because it's one thing to like crave community, but it's another thing to like ease into community and like actually like get acquainted with what it means to live within a community, which can be uncomfortable and you know.

Melissa (11:13.078) Right. my God, that's like exactly in any form of community too, what you just described, like becoming a mother or getting a new job, working in a new place. You know, you always kind of have to feel out like your new environment, you know.

Melissa (11:43.79) We talked about a lot of stuff.

Melissa (11:50.558) Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, so I had a theme or I did a workshop recently. It's called The Writing Body, which I do semi-regularly. I've only done two so far, but I want to kind of keep it a regular thing. Where we go from writing exercises to meditation exercises, kind of like back to back to kind of like open up different forms of creativity, whatever type of creativity that might be.

In one of the meditations I did or I introduced this snowfall visual where you could basically see your thoughts like snowfall. So I kind of guide people to kind of zone in on that visual. The way I do it honestly is I almost like picturing like as if I'm in a little like snow globe. I don't know why, but I could just picture myself in a real snow storm I guess.

I like picturing myself in a little snow globe. you know, thoughts, if you think about it, are kind of like snowfall. You know, they could be a big storm. You know, it could be a lot of thoughts flowing around at once, very hectic, very, you erratic. It could also be, you know, a very light flurry, like just a few thoughts, you know, simple thoughts, not as erratic, kind of just slowly floating around, right?

maybe more of like representing more of a calm state. But either way, you can't hold on too tightly to snow, right? Like if you kind of come in contact with it, it melts almost immediately. It falls to the ground, it disintegrates into whatever surface it's landing on. So this idea of connecting to thoughts in that way. You know, you can see them, you can interact with them. You don't have to ignore them, but...

you also don't need to hold on too tightly to them because they're kind of gone almost as quickly as they've come. know? And yeah, I particularly like the element of the variety of thoughts, you know, like what type of snowstorm is it? And just kind of accepting either way, you know?

Sophie (14:01.742) How strong is it? Is it just like a light snowfall?

Melissa (14:06.158) And even the beauty that comes from both of those things, I mean, like perfect timing. We had a couple of experiences with snow recently.

Sophie (14:13.838) Absolutely. my God, that was.

Melissa (14:15.758) So like I even remember one of the big ones. I just popped outside my apartment and I didn't even walk far. Like I don't even think I walked like two yards away from my door. Cause it was hectic. But it was also so pretty. You know, like you get that fresh snow and it's like both light but also heavy.

So like, you know, that idea of connecting to thoughts in that way too, like you could take the good with the bad.

Sophie (14:46.798) Absolutely. I was absolutely stunned by your words when you said that because especially what came to me in that moment was the idea of at the end of it, everything settles the same. Whether it's like crazy snowfall, whether it's like light snowfall, it just all settles.

Melissa (15:00.727) Ray Ray Ray

Melissa (15:09.144) Good point, exactly. Yeah, all settles into the same thing. Yeah. So no matter how much you're focusing on it or dwelling on it, it's just all gonna kind of dissipate anyway.

Sophie (15:20.46) Holy, I think that's such a beautiful analogy.

Melissa (15:23.886) And also that just invitation to like let things go. Yeah. You know, mean, how many things do you think about that happened like, you know, 15 years ago?

Sophie (15:33.484) Yeah, and relate to it in a different way. Like, you can also be like, like sometimes I'm like, wow, my brain is capable of making this crazy wild

Melissa (15:43.99) my god, yes, yes

Sophie (15:46.144) It's pretty iconic. I shouldn't get into every little story that I'm making up, but like I can acknowledge the creativity, the power, the fire, the passion.

Melissa (16:01.304) Right, right, right, right. Even the way you're just saying that, we talked about Eckhart Tolle a little bit too. I forget if you knew him before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I like his take on it too, how we're ultimately separate from our mind. Like it's not one of the same. So the way you just described it reminds me of that because it's like, the way you described it, you separated yourself from your thoughts. You it like you were a conversation with someone else. Like, you know, they're very creative. Like they came up with the whole thing.

Sophie (16:30.638) What's going on here?

Melissa (16:31.662) You know, and like that idea that even just wording it that way kind of shows you or proves that they're slightly different entities.

Sophie (16:42.542) And I think we talked about this too, like to create like spaciousness for yourself. think that was one big thing. And I mean, I'm saying this and I, all of this, you don't know me that well, but I'm saying all of this and all the tricks that I learned, I only learned because I was suffering so much, right? was through heavy, heavy, heavy suffering and pressure. was like, I need to rise to the occasion.

Melissa (17:02.762) yeah.

Sophie (17:09.55) This is not a way I want to live anymore, so I have to like get creative here.

Melissa (17:13.72) Same. I mean, you know, that's such an interesting topic too, because you know, on one hand, obviously we want to be able to learn things a little easier. You know, like, why not? Like, yeah, sure. Let me just like read something or know something in my mind and then be able to like adjust accordingly. I mean, yeah, I don't have an answer to that. But for some reason, that's just not how it works.

And I know what I'm definitely I always joke I'm a very experience based person. Yeah, so like you tell me something like five times but like I'm not gonna really digest probably until I have to like limit lives in the moment for myself, unfortunately. But you know at the same time like a lot of people also talk about how you you think about like really naive people you know and it's like well how do you even appreciate certain positive things?

if you don't know the contrast. You know, if you haven't experienced the difficult or the bad, for lack of a better word. Yeah. If you want to call it bad. You know, all these like little joys that I experience, I feel like come from the fact that, okay, I've been void of those joys before. Yeah. So now I can really appreciate it. Yeah. You know, versus just kind of living in like lala land. And just like not really, like, do you really appreciate good stuff if like, you know, you've never.

gone through something hard, feel like you wouldn't really.

Sophie (18:43.838) I mean, spent neutral. Yeah, no, totally. think, I think of it like a tree, like, you know, a tree, how a tree kind of like has like all the roots that are almost like as big as the tree itself. It's kind like this like mirror thing going on in the, in the ground. And I think I can only experience as much joy and heightened states of being as much as I'm rooted in.

Melissa (18:44.942) You're just all kind of be like neutral.

Sophie (19:13.088) In my own dark.

Melissa (19:14.552) My God, I love that. I'm gonna use that. I'm gonna steal that. That's a great way to put it.

Sophie (19:19.438) And the crazy thing about it is it kind of like gives me this explorer kind of like lust to like actually go in there and like figure out what's going on there. it's almost like this like a little bit of like an attraction or like a sexiness and a playfulness to like go and see what's actually there because for the longest time I think I was just so scared to go in there because I was like, okay.

I used to say when I was younger, I felt like, I didn't say this to anyone, but I felt like I was haunted by like a black hole that would just like chase me everywhere I go. And I was just like one foot ahead of it all the time, but I had to run, run, run, run, run. Otherwise this black hole would swallow me. And it took me a lot, like my spiritual journey is like a wild ride. But it took me a lot of like different modalities and things to like,

Melissa (20:06.478) Yeah.

Sophie (20:17.868) to like stop and be like, wait, like actually like going in there, you're gonna come out the other side. There's nothing you can find that is, you know, I was so scared that I would find out that I'm a monster. That was, that was, think, I don't, I don't know where that comes from, but like definitely darkness that wasn't integrated. Right. just luring and like getting acquainted with it.

Melissa (20:32.952) Right, interesting, wow.

Sophie (20:46.902) was like learning that those parts were just like, yeah, they were just shadows, they were in the dark, but they were, there's no such thing as an inherently bad, you know?

Melissa (20:55.758) That's even when I was like bad in quotes.

Sophie (20:57.982) Totally. just, and it completely changed my outlook on life and how I move through life.

Melissa (21:06.03) That's a really powerful visual. The chasing and the idea of like, always needing to feel like you need to be one step ahead of it, that's stressful.

Sophie (21:14.392) Totally. And I mean, practice yoga and you practice, you give meditation classes. So you're very familiar with like, you know, having visuals and like, I think it's such a helpful tool to kind of like, mythologize your life in a way. You know what I mean? Creating like, the metaphors and the myths that like, empowers you.

Melissa (21:34.83) Right, right.

Sophie (21:43.796) No way.

Melissa (21:45.422) Right, because it's all a part of you at the end of the day, whether you like it or not. And use it to your advantage, that knowledge. Easier said than done, of course. But that's usually the goal. I've always been very thankful that I've never been against therapy. I remember when I first went to therapy when I was in college, and it was suggested to me. was like, yeah, sure. You want to like...

Sophie (21:55.384) No.

Melissa (22:13.006) here help me for free. Give it to me. Right, because it was like a part of school. It's like, OK, or you know, as a part of my like, like what I paid for for school, you know. So it's just like, OK, like you notice I have problems and you want to help me for free because you have a degree in it. Like, great, let's do it. Because, know, it's always good to get just that insight and get more comfortable with uncomfortable stuff. Oh, you know. Yeah. Yeah, it's a really powerful visual.

the chasing. Yeah.

Sophie (22:44.046) That resonates a lot. think I also was never really opposed to going to therapy. I started super early on. I started when I was 16. I also did it.

Melissa (22:52.716) Definitely.

Sophie (22:54.03) But yeah, from there, just kind of like made me explore even more like or less conventional paths to like to know more about myself.

Melissa (23:09.208) Yeah, get to know yourself, get to know how you resource yourself. I mean, I think we all need that kind of help. There was someone, I forget who said it, but I always laugh at it. They said there are two different types of people in this world. People who know that they have shit to figure out and people who don't know they have shit to figure out.

Sophie (23:28.75) And I guess we're just all like souls traveling at like a different speed. And I think that's the hardest part, just to kind of like just focus on your own journey and not too much with other people do.

Melissa (23:41.832) my god, yeah, that's also, that's what I'm still working on at therapy. It really is a challenge. Like, don't you just want people to do things your way?

Sophie (23:44.782) It's such a

Sophie (23:54.016) Absolutely. then, but then I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm working on that so much. And I like, I feel like I want to get into like a self-centered or like, I think I'm very self-centered, but in a way that is like very serving. Yeah, but no, I do think I, you know, even this, like, this is wholeheartedly like serving myself.

Melissa (24:12.6) Self-aware.

Sophie (24:23.97) but it's also I serve myself and in that I serve the world.

Melissa (24:29.646) Well, you know, people say like, there's no such thing as like a selfless act, you know? Totally. Like you do things that help others, but it's like, it's it makes you feel good.

Sophie (24:39.726) Exactly, but you know, that's the point. You can also just turn it around and be like, there's no such thing as a selfish act. know? So it's kind of like both. I think for me, it's like this dichotomy of like living in a patriarchy. You can't be too full of yourself and you have to kind of like, you know, hustle and grind. And if I think of a matriarchy, it's like, no.

Melissa (24:47.618) Right, right,

Sophie (25:07.584) we should be so obsessed with ourselves and so in love with ourselves and create from that love and the world actually benefits from that love. Because we don't, we don't like if we don't and I mean, you for sure have a lot to say about that. I mean, especially being a mom and everything, but like, I don't think anyone actually serves or benefits from a mortier in the sense of like, I don't benefit.

anything if you give yourself up for me. You know what I mean? And no one benefits from anyone giving up themselves. But rather if you're fully in your magic and I'm in my magic and we come together and we can create something, you know, something third without like me having to give up my

Melissa (25:58.934) I see what you mean. Right. Because I guess the issue with that is just losing some authenticity and losing some disconnecting yourself from like your true nature, what brings you joy, you know? If everyone's working from that standpoint, then hypothetically, we should all be able to come together in a better way.

Sophie (26:23.47) a better way, you know? And that's kind of like what I'm trying to explore here. Like, how can we do this? How can we... So I believe it already kind of like lives within us. We just have to kind of like access it.

Melissa (26:37.294) probably agree with that. Again, we just all kind of have to work on like, again, kind of shedding the things that we were told we were supposed to do in favor of those things.

Sophie (26:49.26) Yeah, absolutely. So right after you left the first time we met, I made like a bunch of notes because I didn't want to forget. we need to talk about this. We need to talk about this. So I wrote down the power of language and the concept of judgment.

Melissa (26:59.694) I

Melissa (27:07.612) my gosh, yeah, talk about that a lot. Okay. Okay, so that was another like Eckhart Tolle thing. Okay. I was working again on like a class and meditation theme. I kind of went on down this rabbit hole of judgment and its relation to basically like the history of language, I I probably remember more as I started talking to you, but you know, language was...

created as this way of survival, really, you know, so we can communicate with each other properly, especially at a time where like the things you were communicating were probably pretty like life and death. Like we would be able to sit together and I could tell you like, hey, there's a lion chasing you and you would like know what that means. So it was like necessary, know? So that's all well and good. But then forward to now, naming things, it's a very like close

or a jump to like judging or categorizing, you know? And I think as people, we often think or assume that we know a lot more than I think we know. So someone has a name for something, they categorize something, and it has all these immediate connotations. You know, like even you think about like the word like religion or religious, like some people...

find a lot of comfort in that word and they don't have any trauma around that word. And other people, they might even see themselves as religious, but they just don't like the word because they have stronger, maybe more negative connotations with it. So like you think about that word, for example, and you can have two people that are reacting to that word totally different. And I just thought it was so interesting because one, I think it's true. I think that...

Sophie (28:47.466) Interesting. Yeah.

Melissa (29:03.393) we kind of name and categorize things so quickly that it takes a lot of the magic away from things, which I was gonna say is unfortunate, but I know, guess it is whatever it is. Just something to know, I guess. Something to compare, yeah. Right, and when you remove the magic for something, it just leaves no room for like a change of opinion or just like more creativity around

Sophie (29:20.428) And to be aware of.

Melissa (29:32.29) what that could mean, know? You, especially this day and age, you you hear someone's from a certain place and that's like automatically gonna like make people judge. You know, you eat a certain thing or believe in a certain thing and it's very hard, especially the older you get, to kind of shed whatever past experiences you had with something.

Sophie (29:56.973) So interesting.

Melissa (29:58.55) You know, and like, if you think about that task, like it is super hard, you know, like that. We are at an age where we have a lot more life to go, but we've also had a lot of life in the past. So it's hard to not have connotations of things. And again, naming things and being able to categorize things, it's helpful. Like we do need to do that. But then just kind of like training yourself to give yourself a little space between like you hearing something.

Sophie (30:03.032) Definitely.

Melissa (30:27.894) and then like reacting to that thing.

Sophie (30:30.626) to what we said earlier, like create space between you and your thoughts.

Melissa (30:34.474) Mm-hmm. Yeah, so that's kind of where it came from and like this idea that judgment, yeah, that's what I talked about too. Judgment creates this like false sense of control in ourselves. know, you can, if you feel like you could judge something, then you can separate yourself from whatever makes you uncomfortable, whatever you fear, whatever you're not educated on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whether you want to it or not. Yeah. And...

You know, even think about like, you know, like someone irritates you. What do you usually do? You usually start ruminating about like, like this person did that and that and like, I'm right because I'm coming from this perspective. And in a weird way, like it's amping you up in kind of like this high effort, like negative way, but it's also giving you comfort. Yeah. You know, you're like kind of like amping yourself up in that way. And the reason that's happening, I think, is because

you're trying to convince yourself of this control that you have over a situation that you probably don't have much control over. And that's the only way you could do it. Because you know, you're talking about another person that you can't dictate their behavior. You can't dictate what they think or what they feel, especially about you. Also something I'm trying to work on. You know, even just especially as like, like, know, someone who manages people in my workspace, you know, like I feel like I'm always toying between, you know, being able to make

decisions I need to make, but also like, but I want everyone to want to work for me. I'm like, like everything that I do, which is literally impossible. And I know that's impossible. Yeah. But, you know, there's still that instinct in you that I guess wants to make that happen. So yeah, just trying to explore this idea that, you know, when I do start getting in my head about that kind of stuff, just trying to like, soften those thoughts enough to just kind of like,

Ideally, be comfortable letting people do whatever they're gonna do. You know, and not just in work, just like in life in general. You know, because as soon as you wanna start controlling other people, mean, you're screwed. Yeah, like how is that gonna work?

Sophie (32:46.103) screw.

Sophie (32:50.69) And it's so interesting because I think, especially again, like the whole like power of language, you mentioned that in terms of like, you know, like defining things and then like reaffirming that leaf, right? But also like, it can also set limitations, right? In terms of what I'm thinking is like, if we say magic isn't real, it's like,

It's not only like the words, but it's like the belief that is behind that. And then how that affects our lives. The words itself are just like surface level, but like the belief that is tied to those words are like so powerful. And then to like be able to kind of like shift that is not that easy.

Melissa (33:42.478) No, I see what you mean, yes. Yeah, because you're also, if we're talking about like, you know, to simplify it, like a conversation between just like two people, you know, it's never just that conversation. Never. You know, like even this conversation that we're having now, it's like a positive conversation, but you know, every conversation, you're bringing your full background to that conversation, whether you're consciously thinking it or not.

Sophie (34:07.448) blew it.

Melissa (34:07.726) And like we're all different people, we come from different places, like you're never going to be able to unpack in one argument with somebody like all that they're bringing to that situation. Yeah. You know? Just like, who knows? So again, trying to like control that in other people, that's like one of the reasons why it's so impossible. Because it's just like, mean, OK, what are you going to do? You're going to convince this person that like this belief that they've been living with forever.

they're going to change it because you disagreed with them about like where the line started in the cafe or something. You know, and sometimes it's not even that deep. could be just like, you know, I'm bringing in something from like, you know, something that happened this morning and now I'm pissy about it. And now I'm going to like take it out on you, you know, that I feel like out of all the things we've talked about so far that I feel like I've made the most progress.

I feel like I am kind of, I could be pretty good at being like, you know what, like I don't even know like how, like what you're bringing into that. You know what I mean? Like maybe it's something that happened this morning. Maybe it's something like your mom did 30 years ago. You know what I mean? I feel like, especially after my yoga and meditation practice and hearing about so many people's backgrounds too.

Sophie (35:23.224) Truly.

Melissa (35:33.856) Sometimes people do wild shit and I'm just like, okay, like, I don't know, not to sound like patronizing or, but like, I don't know what happened to you before.

Sophie (35:41.902) Yeah. And I think that's an important, that's an important approach and like a freeing approach also, because ultimately, no matter how fucked up, but whatever we do, we usually do think we are in the right. We might change that opinion further down the line, but in the very moment we think we're doing, you know, it's,

Melissa (36:04.5) And hence why you took whatever action you took.

Sophie (36:07.31) And so not to justify anything or to excuse anybody's behavior, for some reason they thought they were doing this. just having that flexibility also helps you to understand that they didn't try to fuck over you, it had more to do with them than with you. And I feel like that helps me a lot to distance myself from people's behavior or like,

Melissa (36:20.931) Hmm.

Sophie (36:37.474) you know, irrational or rude behavior towards me. I'm like, well, whatever is going on here has so much more to do with them and not with me. And also then, like, I guess like traveling a lot is also kind of makes everything so freaking relative. of my favorite things to to tell people is like, if you're in the West, especially like around here in Europe, and you tell people fairies exist.

Melissa (36:45.39) Right, right.

Sophie (37:06.572) They usually like laugh at you. They're like, yeah.

Melissa (37:08.35) Sure, yeah.

Sophie (37:10.414) You know, whatever. It's very common knowledge that that's just like, you know, children's magic.

Melissa (37:21.515) I believe in everything, by the way.

Sophie (37:23.922) Perfect. like, so, and interestingly enough, I traveled a lot in like Latin America. And if you would tell people in, let's say in Colombia or in Mexico, you would tell people fairies don't exist. Right. They react in sort of the same manner. They're like, okay, well, good luck to you. Exactly. Which just.

Melissa (37:30.808) Cool.

Melissa (37:47.63) Like, did look crazy? Yeah.

Sophie (37:53.642) is such a analogy for how relative everything is. And even though we use language in a way that makes it sound as if we have figured out a higher truth, it still is so fucking relative.

Melissa (38:12.514) Right, right, right. I totally agree. Yeah, and I never have conversations like that really, because I believe in everything, like I said. I mean, I have a strong belief that even like the smartest person in the world knows like, what, like 0.003 % of like the universe. So like, if someone's like, a fairy's not real or like a mermaid's not real or something, it's like, like, why not?

Or like there things that we do accept as like kind of being normal that I personally think are like so magical. know, like even just the fact that like someone could grow and carry a child in their body and then birth it out. That's fucking crazy.

Sophie (38:53.423) Absolutely, absolutely magic.

Melissa (38:56.322) Like that's insane. like it's like normalized. So it's like, it's like, science or whatever. I have actually had a not argument, but like, like a little debate with, have a friend who's a brain surgeon. So like very smart. And I was literally giving that example. And of course she was kind of like, well, no, like it's not magic. Like it happens because of like this, that and that. And I was like, okay, but like how? Like even just like science is magical.

Sophie (39:22.764) was just gonna say like, why does it have to be one or the other? Why can it not be science and- I have this one thing, like this really funny thought experiment that I randomly came up with during a road trip with a friend of mine. And I told her, was like, dude, if we all of a sudden had like aliens raining, they're harmless, they don't do anything. They're like little like monkey.

Melissa (39:29.036) Right, is not.

Sophie (39:52.138) alien figurines that would just rain. At first we'd be like freaked out. Like it.

Melissa (39:55.431) There, gotcha.

Yeah, that sounds horrifying. It's scary. It's...

Sophie (40:03.23) It's paranormal. It's crazy. It's, you could say magic, you know, but then imagine this would continue for a year, 10 years. Yeah. It would eventually just be like a natural phenomenon. And that is literally, that is with everything, everything that we deem impossible.

Melissa (40:15.957) It would be my

Melissa (40:20.002) Ray Ray Ray Ray

Melissa (40:24.206) Everything you saw in it.

Sophie (40:28.556) we think is magic and everything that becomes possible cannot be magic anymore. That's not the life I want to live in.

Melissa (40:36.337) my god, that's such a good analogy. Yeah, people even like, you know, like electricity was like crazy

Sophie (40:41.206) Yeah, mean, if we showed people a hundred years ago how we're living now, all of that will be deemed magic. Right, right, right. But because it's quote unquote real for us now, we're like, well, it's real, it's explainable, it's science, it can't be magic anymore. And like, I think it's so funny and like, I really want to hear your thoughts on another thought that I have recently is like, we have those children books that like,

Melissa (40:53.742) Yo.

Sophie (41:10.004) share such beautiful stories, you know, and like, like thoughts and like, how to how to relate to the world. And then there's this weird kind of like cut that we make not clear where the age cut is exactly. But we're like, we want to protect that childlike wonder. Sure. And then like when we're grown up, we're like, no, no, no, for you, that doesn't apply. You can't have childlike wonder. Right. Because

Melissa (41:35.298) Yeah, cut it out.

Melissa (41:43.182) Probably around the time that you have to like pay bills.

Sophie (41:46.274) Yeah, but isn't it crazy? It's like, you can still pay bills and have to know like wonder.

Melissa (41:50.99) Right, yeah. I think it's just like, it's about things just get like more complicated. Or at least we think they get more complicated. You know, because like we keep adding all these factors and circumstances and responsibilities and stuff. And I think the kid in you just gets like beaten out like slowly.

Sophie (42:09.454) But you know, I have all those things. I have to pay bills. I have to organize my life. But if I believe that the butterflies guide me through life, my life just becomes ten times better. paying a bill, it becomes...

Melissa (42:19.426) I think. More if I'm right. But you you might be in a privileged position to be able to feel that way, you know, like I feel the same way as you do. But, you know, who knows why? Maybe we had more support with that. Maybe we were exposed to certain people, enough people where we like more down this side versus this side. But even if you don't realize it yourself, like you worked to get to that point. You know,

So maybe that's just the difference of like how much you really connect to that concept and how much you're willing to like dive into that end of it instead of just, cause there's always a choice, right? Like you've both probably had all these crossroad moments where it's like, okay, I could go this way or I could go this way. And then we picked like the weirder way and we picked the weird way enough times and now we're just like, fairies are real.

Sophie (43:15.406) Yeah, no, it's, it's, you're, you're 100 % right. I'm not blaming anyone. I just, it's just sometimes like, I, I tried to wrap my head around it because it's, to me, it's just such a no brain.

Melissa (43:24.008) It's interesting, yeah.

Melissa (43:29.166) I think so too, yeah. mean, I just, I don't know. It just like, that idea resonates with me. Or like, you even, remember when I was in art school, like there were friends that I had who like weren't even allowed to go. You know, they were just like taught so differently. Or like things were prioritized a little different. So it's like, you know, we're all like picking these different roads at end of the day. And it is super interesting.

Sophie (43:40.952) today.

Sophie (43:45.046) Yeah.

Sophie (43:48.856) for sure.

Sophie (43:55.04) Absolutely.

Melissa (43:58.414) And again, going back to what we talked about too, again, like, you know, people coming from different perspectives and it's like, you know, how are you going to change that person's perspective as much as I like want to all the time? I mean, I necessarily try to make people believe in mermaids or fairies necessarily, but I definitely gravitate more towards people who do.

Sophie (44:14.99) Me neither.

Sophie (44:20.402) And I think that's all you can do really. think we cannot change anyone. But we can definitely like, I always say stop fighting. And again, like I'm not telling anyone what to do. I feel like we all inherently know what's right for us on the inside. But for myself, it's like, I definitely found that my life is a lot better if I stop fight the gatekeepers.

Because there's always going to be people that don't want me to have access to whatever. For sure. And instead of fighting them and just putting out lot of energy into that, I just go look for the gate openers because they're always around.

Melissa (45:06.312) that's a really good way to put it. Yeah, and that's probably, I mean, yeah, that should be a better way to do it for sure. And yeah, just kind of probably constantly dealing with that struggle to like finding a way to fit both at the same time. You know, like being angry when you need to be angry and then finding your people when you need to find your people. I'm still working on that.

Sophie (45:18.978) Yeah, no, of course

Sophie (45:25.74) Absolutely. There's space for all of that. And like, I'm not saying don't be angry at, know, if people mistreat you, that generates anger and anger is valid. But for your own sake, like in terms of like productivity, it's just like, getting hung up there and just like, you know, get like hung up in that loop. And again, I've been there.

Melissa (45:48.568) Totally.

Melissa (45:53.198) Yeah, yeah, everything's easier. We're simplifying for the sake of conversation. yeah, we all know that, you know, easier said than done, but that doesn't mean that's your answer. Your answer is still correct. It's just a matter of like, you know, how often we do it.

Sophie (46:08.576) Yeah, and I was just mesmerized also over time how my perspective on the world shifted. Obviously fully acknowledging that I'm in a very privileged position that I, you know, like there are so many like intricate parts about this, but still I went from, everyone wants bad things for me. oversimplifying, right? To a perspective of like, right, because

Melissa (46:13.667) Yeah.

Sophie (46:37.582) We always only perceive frictions of what's going on.

Melissa (46:42.094) It's like, again, based on our survival instinct. Yeah. You feel like you have to look out for that.

Sophie (46:47.552) Exactly, where you put your attention is kind of like what you're gonna enhance. like putting my perspective onto those people that are actually looking for me and are like, come in. Like I you to be part of this created like this life where that actually happens a lot. And that was very powerful.

Melissa (46:51.607) Inhale.

Melissa (47:06.412) Yeah, yeah.

yeah, that's so true. Yeah, because you need to if you're too distracted with the other stuff, are you even gonna notice like the people calling for you, you know?

Sophie (47:17.518) Exactly. Yeah. But again, it's a process and everyone travels at

Melissa (47:22.882) You were all gonna be good at it some days, shit at it other days.

Sophie (47:26.926) Oh, 100%. 100%. I still have bad days. Why?

Melissa (47:33.201) my god, same. mean this morning, today I wasn't even that great.

Sophie (47:38.978) It's normal. It happens. We're people and it's okay. But yeah, all of this kind of like revolves around the butterfly and it kind of like, I think the butterfly shifted my life in like a major way I could have never anticipated. It kind of like came into my life and became this symbol that I really like lean on and it kind of like I take care of it and it takes care of me. It's like a very

Melissa (47:41.55) kid

A R A

Sophie (48:05.112) beautiful sling offices that we have.

Melissa (48:08.75) Yeah, I would love to hear more about how like the butterfly specifically ended up like resonating with you because I totally get it from, know, what you've mentioned on your platform already. Like it definitely resonates. But yeah, when I was reading it, I was kind of curious, like because there are a of visuals you can attach to. Yeah. You know, but obviously something about the butterfly specifically like.

Sophie (48:31.283) I can't even explain it to you like in like rational

Melissa (48:36.094) Who needs rational terms? That's true.

Sophie (48:42.177) It started, I mean, I've always loved the symbol of the butterfly. was always special to me. My first ever tattoo that I got was a butterfly. When I was 15, my mom hated it. Like I got home with like this tattoo. was like, she didn't know that I got it. And she was totally freaking out. I was just like, well.

Melissa (48:56.017) I'm

Sophie (49:05.558) Now you don't want me to get an infection, right? So here, put cream on my back. Right, In Switzerland.

Melissa (49:09.454) Wait, where'd you grow up again? Are you allowed to get tattoos earlier there or no? Okay. Okay, gotcha.

Sophie (49:17.974) No, was, I I was being such a brat. Right. but yeah, it, it always resonated with me. I always liked the idea of metamorphosis, but then it's, really started last pretty much a year ago, last January. I was in Peru and a butterfly sat on my hand.

Melissa (49:39.477) nice.

Sophie (49:41.014) And they don't typically do that unless you have like sugar on you or flowers. I had nothing. I was just standing there and like this butterfly sat on my hand for quite some time. And I was just like, like it felt like, it's another weird thing about me, but like when a baby falls asleep on me, I feel like this is the biggest compliment. Cause I feel like I was able to like,

Melissa (49:45.526) sure like you're literally trying to.

Melissa (50:05.567) It is a good saying.

Sophie (50:09.646) generate like this, this, this like safe and calm for them to like fall asleep. And like, I had a similar excitement when this butterfly sat on my hand because it was like, well, I clearly like my energy is, so clear and so in... And I think it kind of like just developed from there. One thing lets you know that I started seeing them.

Melissa (50:13.046) to see space.

Melissa (50:26.506) Something's working.

Sophie (50:36.078) everywhere and I don't mean like the live butterflies, but like the symbols. And it made me think because I was like, well, there's so many like, you know, backpacks or t-shirts or tattoos. And it's not like it's sometimes a crocodile and sometimes a giraffe and sometimes a lion, but it's so often a butterfly.

Melissa (50:40.686) way way

Melissa (51:05.996) I'm just.

Sophie (51:06.484) in comparison to other animals. And that kind of like made me like, yeah, go down that rabbit hole even more. And then I was like, okay, I'm just going to look out for them more intentionally. And I can't like rewire my brain in a crazy way. And I like see them everywhere. I started like, kind of like, like documenting them. And I started posting them on my, on my Instagram. And like people started taking

Melissa (51:17.539) Right.

Melissa (51:22.958) to like notice, yeah.

Sophie (51:34.784) seeing butterflies and sending them to me. And that was kind of like where I was like, okay, this is bigger than me. Like I'm channeling something. Especially when friends of mine tell me they saw a butterfly and they made them think of me. That's how like for me, like that's how I define success.

Melissa (51:37.356) Nice.

Melissa (51:43.342) Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Melissa (51:58.422) I mean, I'm sure now I will think of you and I see what it's like.

Sophie (52:02.85) I I make sure. I like, like, positively make sure that that's what happens with everyone. But that's, to me, it's like, that's how I define success. If I die and, and, and leave behind a bunch of people that think of, that think of me when they see a butterfly.

Melissa (52:19.832) You'll probably be coming around as a butterfly, like you. Yeah. Like when you're, once you pass on, you know.

Sophie (52:27.95) Interestingly enough, a lot of folklore all over the world associate butterflies with past souls. All over the world, which is so interesting that in Hawaii they would have the same belief as in Mexico. So that is another aspect that I really, really like. And time and time again, it gives me answers. It eases me up. like...

Melissa (52:43.854) Mm-hmm.

Sophie (52:53.984) It like helps me to overcome the fear of like change. Because I look at it more like a transformation, a metamorphosis, you know? And also for myself, I think I've changed quite a lot over the past couple of years. And like looking at it through the lens of a butterfly and be like, you were a caterpillar and then you change a lot. But you're still the same creature.

Melissa (53:16.574) I mean, it's a beautiful metaphor and concept of yeah, like accepting change and being patient. That's another thing that I'm always like very curious on. Talk about like selfish, non selfish, but like I love exploring that stuff because it's something I want to work on and then you feel like it's something other people need to work on. So it's like, okay, let me share what I'm trying to fix in myself. But like great lesson in patience.

Sophie (53:23.564) you know

Melissa (53:42.326) you know, not being able to rush nature and not being able to rush the process. And then this beautiful, you know, evolution happens once you just kind of let things take its course, you know.

Sophie (53:53.204) So good, so good because you know what I love most about the butterfly? It becomes my being.

Melissa (53:58.86) Mm-hmm.

Sophie (54:00.686) Like we live, the narrative that we inhabit right now, the current, like even I feel like it's shifting, but like definitely the narrative that I grew up in was like, you have to do as much as you can. You have to totally like, know, outdo yourself or you over give or you have to like pour all your energy, all the energy you have into becoming something.

Right, right. It's like this notion of like, you have to put so much force into becoming. Butterflies just prove that like, could just become regardless.

Melissa (54:38.613) Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes, that's That's kind of like the theme I'm working on right now in practice, which is comparing intention versus goals. I'm like, love goals. Like, I feel like I'm a pretty goal-oriented person in a lot of ways. But the issue that sometimes arises with goals is that you are trying to get to a place that's not now. Yeah. You know?

Sophie (55:08.426) One of the first.

Melissa (55:08.91) And then a lot of people probably also create goals that they're not like super connected to you know, maybe it's a goal that like a parent or a partner put on you or It's something that you feel you need to do to like get ahead in life or progress, you know Or maybe it's something that you you know wanted at one point and then didn't give yourself the flexibility to like change or adjust, you know as opposed to intention which is much more about like living in the right now and like

There's an analogy that I heard that I really liked about goals versus attention, which you know I like analogies now, but it's a mountain. And basically the peak of the mountain is like the goal. But if you think about reaching the peak of a mountain, you're at the top for like a very short amount of time. You're spending more time along the side of the mountain. So you need to enjoy being along the side. If you're just only gonna be happy,

Sophie (56:00.59) 100 %

Melissa (56:05.422) once you reach the top, I mean, you might not even get there. You or am I taking longer? Right, you might not get there. Right, now I need to go off set on it. Exactly, you're always moving the needle. you're never gonna, you know, it's so hard to be satisfied with what you have. You always have to like go right to the next thing, right to the next school. You know, I get this degree, now I need to get this other one. Or like, you know, I got that promotion, now I need another promotion, you know? So yeah, this idea that...

Sophie (56:09.528) leading. another mountain top and you're like,

Melissa (56:33.986) You know, you don't have to rush to the next thing. You you can enjoy the process, enjoy the journey, appreciate the journey and the process. And you have so much more control over that. Yeah. You know, a lot of goals we have too, we're not even participants in the results of that goal. Definitely. You you want a reward or again, like a promotion or something. you apply to a residency, you know, maybe you get it, maybe you don't.

You know, you're not a part of the judging team, obviously. You know, but like if you're gonna create art just to get a shovel or an award that you might not never ever get. Yeah. You know, like what kind of life is that? Totally. You know?

Sophie (57:16.8) I love that. I love that so much. There's so like my snaps are like. Because for one, like I think definitely like the fleeting moment and like the goal versus the process. The process is where the magic happens. Yeah. Also, like if you think about it, like energetically, like the process is what leads up to the goal. How do you feel like if the process is not enjoyable, how would you enjoy the goal? Like if.

Melissa (57:31.426) Yeah.

Melissa (57:42.542) You don't, and people don't even realize that. That's why it's always the next thing. Exactly. You get that goal and then have to do it again and again and again because you feel like that's what's gonna fulfill you, but then you just kind of quickly, and I don't even know fully the depth of that. I'm sure there's a lot of studies around it and stuff. Sure. But yeah, there's just always that element of searching for that satisfaction when in actuality,

that lives within you from the get-go. You just need to tap into what that is.

Sophie (58:17.422) That's such an important aspect of it because I think also it ties back a little bit to what we said earlier about magic. Because if we have this like over focusing on a goal that is not happening right now, right? It's in the future. First off, we kind of like in a way say that we need this faster because we're not good enough without it. Yeah.

So it's like, definitely also relates to our own self-worth a lot. then secondly, I think again, if you don't believe in magic and you reach a goal, then automatically what was unattainable for you was kind of like magic, but then once you attained it, it's not magic anymore. And like, I call myself inferior if I got mothers because I acknowledge like my innate.

Melissa (58:48.461) Mm-hmm.

Melissa (59:04.907) god, that's such a good point. Yeah.

Sophie (59:13.078) magical essence. That's what I think is my magical essence is a fairy godmother. And like, if I move from there, obviously I have things that I want to, you know.

Melissa (59:26.293) Right, as I should, you know, but

Sophie (59:28.192) I see it much more in the sense that like all my goals are kind of like choosy little aspects. All the goals that I have not yet achieved are also life I have yet to live. I achieve all my goals right away. I have no life left. Like I want to rush through life. I don't want to look back at the end of my life and be like, I tried to rush through all of it. Like I want to save your every single.

Melissa (59:40.206) Like if I

Melissa (59:46.574) Right, you'd spent, yeah.

Sophie (59:56.674) day as a little magical gift that it is. I think it can, goes like, if you acknowledge your own magical essence, you can acknowledge the magic of flowers. can acknowledge the magic of yoga. You can acknowledge the magic of giving birth. And like, I do believe it all starts with you. And then that's kind like what you project outwards.

Melissa (01:00:11.927) Yeah.

and focusing on right now. You know, because that's the other thing too, like the opposite you were describing, it's lacking focus on what's already happening. Yeah. You know, are all really great points and so true. I totally agree. Yeah. It just starts with, you know, appreciating what you have going on now instead of being so distracted. You know, I think distraction, being present is basically the solution to most problems, I feel. Says the yoga teacher.

Sophie (01:00:23.927) Sophie (01:00:41.87) Which is easier said than done, Sure.

Melissa (01:00:45.358) For sure. Yeah. Because I mean, like you said, like we have to have goals and like output. Like it's important. Of course. You know, like, okay, like we, like I happen to like my job, but like I also get paid for my job so I can like pay my rent. Of course. Yeah. Make sure like the lights literally stay on. like I do have to care about output, you know, and I have to do things that I might not want to do or like aren't as fun or whatever.

Sophie (01:00:51.842) Yeah.

Melissa (01:01:12.876) maybe don't keep me in the present moment as much because I need to make sure that like things, know, some things that I'm working on now is going to be something that needs to happen in a week or a month or whatever. But you need to find space for both.

Sophie (01:01:25.804) Yeah, it's an act of balance. But essentially to me, everything is kind of like a butterfly. My life is like a cycle of a butterfly, but then in my life I have tinier cycles of butterflies. That's how I explain everything in the world. But I'm curious, especially the butterfly effect, how certain things in your life, I mean, you are a multi-hyphenate.

You art, like you do so many things. You do the yoga thing and then you have a family. Like you do so many things and I'm sure there were like, you know, life kind of like played out in a way that like there were crucial moments that kind of like led you to where you are right now. So I'm just curious whether there was like, you know, like a butterfly effect that really shaped your life the way it is right now.

Melissa (01:02:18.094) Oh my God, I guess they're probably a few. But yeah, again, great analogy, because I think probably most people can think of a few examples. I mean, one of the most recent ones was probably becoming a mom, maybe like the most intense one, because becoming a parent is just such an interesting thing, because it's funny when you become a parent too, you think about your own parents, you know? I feel like when you're a kid, kind of feel like you're like subconsciously, you feel like your parents just like,

existed once you were born. You know, like they didn't like grow up and have their own lives or, you know, their own struggles or anything. They just like, you know, like manifested as adults like the day before you were born or something. But it was funny when I had my daughter, there are parts of you that kind of naturally change immediately. But then at the same time, you're also like just the exact same person you were the day before. Just like now you have like a fucking kid, you know.

So it's like this mix of like transforming so much, but then also like, and you know, in ways you're inviting that transformation, you know, but in a way there's also this like need to hold on to old parts of yourself too. You know, so you want to both improve, but also like stay connected to how you were before, you know? And some ways that's easy, some ways it's like the most typical thing I've ever done, you know?

And then you have periods where like, you just need to focus on one thing or the other. Like when she was born, it was just kind of like tunnel vision to like, you know, figuring out how to like keep her alive and like also like trying to take care of myself enough where I could even like do that. know, and I had a C-section. So it was like, you know, a surgery on top of that essentially or literally. So yeah, it was like.

a really beautiful experience, but also like super, super hard. Because you're doing like two very important things at once and you can't really drop one for the other. You know what mean? You kind of need to simultaneously like do both at the same time. I remember feeling really strongly. I had to figure out what parts of me I wanted to shed, butterfly, and what parts of me I wanted to evolve and keep, you know, because there were things about me that just were not conducive to being a parent.

Melissa (01:04:39.064) And then there were parts of me that were very conducive to being a parent and like, I wanted to lean more into those things, you know? I have a partner, I have a husband, so like, your relationship changes a lot in that sense when you have a kid, also in a very difficult but also very beautiful way, you know? I think the connection that you have with someone when you're raising a kid is like...

to your relationship with anybody else. You know, it's literally like, I think I've described it as like literally like being in war with somebody. You know, like when people talk about like being in a war and they like reconnect with like people in, I don't know the words, like platoon or whatever. You know, like you have that connection. You know, I feel like it's literally like that. Like we've been through this together. Same way with if you just like see like another mom or something. It's like you have this automatic understanding like, okay. Right, exactly.

Sophie (01:05:28.205) same boat.

Melissa (01:05:30.382) I guess super related to the idea of the butterfly. Cause again, that like figuring out what to shed, what to keep, and then giving yourself grace during that very intense, painful, long process. Definitely had to practice patience. I wanted to rush through like all of it, you know, like get to the part where like I physically felt good. I mentally felt good. You know, everything was comfortable, you know.

my God, I would have done horrible things to reach that point sooner, like in a Disney movie, like make a deal with like an evil witch or something. Take my left leg, just like make me feel comfortable. I'll give you whatever you want. and this kind of relates to what I was going to say earlier that I forgot. I was listening to, you know that actor Rainn Wilson, he's in the office. He's actually a cool guy.

outside of his acting career too, he has a podcast called Soul Bloom that's pretty interesting. He was on like a very popular show and the show ended a while ago and he was doing an interview and he was like, some of my most difficult moments were when I was filming that show because I wanted to rush through the whole thing. And then now looking back, he was like, he wished he could say to himself,

that was like some of the best like times of your life. You just like weren't paying attention because you were so concerned about like how you were gonna keep moving forward, you know? And you know, it's a big ask to try to do all of that at once. So like I have graced on myself too from that time, you know, I don't necessarily wish it were any different just because like now that informs how I move through things now, you know? Such a wild journey doing this.

I even compared my body to a car. I was like, do you drive?

Sophie (01:07:27.342) Well, yeah, technically, yes.

Melissa (01:07:29.83) I compared it to like, I actually don't drive, so I don't know why I'm doing a car analogy, but it's like if someone like, you know, you have your car, right? I feel like giving birth, it's like if someone just like swapped out your car, like in terms of your body. Yeah. So it's like, it's not like you hate the new car. It's just like, it's not your car. Right. And so it's like, you're trying to like figure out all this stuff with the car and you need to get to where you're going. So you really need to like figure out how this car works. And like, do you need to like replace any of the parts? You know, so it's like.

Sophie (01:07:46.722) not use with

Melissa (01:07:59.84) You know, that was a whole element of it. Sure. And accepting like things about my body that could change and could not change, you know, there's certain things like, like your hips just like literally get bigger. You know, like your hip bones shift. You know, my feet literally grew a size, which is like very common, you know. So it's like, you know, like what am I going to do? Like think about that every day for the rest of my life, like wishing I could change my hips, change my feet. Like it sounds crazy, you know.

But at the same time, the journey to getting to what I just said took a decent amount of time.

Sophie (01:08:33.51) Sure. you kind of like have to process loss and that change. It takes a while until you integrate it into your being. And also like, yeah, with that, like goes back to what you said earlier, like the patience aspect of it. like, understanding it. Like it's so easy to say in hindsight and be like, yeah, I need to be patient with myself. like being able to catch yourself in the moment and be like,

Melissa (01:08:36.128) You know, Right, right.

Sophie (01:09:03.475) Actually, everything is okay. I just need to be patient. Things will pass so hard.

Melissa (01:09:10.606) Right, it really is hard, yes. We just live in a world where it's like, you know, things have to be fast, you know, instant gratification, you you order something online, you gotta get it the next day. You know, it's like ingrained in so many things, this like speed.

Sophie (01:09:12.427) so hard.

Sophie (01:09:26.218) Not only that, I think we also live in a world where like, we still, even though we're trying to escape those binaries, where we still are like in this, some things are bad and some things are good. like hard feelings, strong emotions, difficult emotions, they're still kind of like labeled as... And like good emotions are good and then you want to be in the good emotion side, but you're dabbling with, you're dealing with the hard ones. And then...

And that actually kind of like that resistance that you create towards it is actually what like causes the suffering. The suffering is like, but it's the resistance. And then like being able to like, like surrender and let go and let go into this. again, it's just, it just takes so much time.

Melissa (01:09:59.63) Yes, 100 % of suffering.

Melissa (01:10:13.966) Because you're fighting your natural being, really. Like, again, to go back to like a billion years ago, like when language, before language was created and everything, like that part of our brain, you know, it thinks it's protecting us because you do need that part of your brain to tell you like, hey, this is dangerous. You know, you need to avoid the situation, but as sophisticated as our brains are, it's not quite sophisticated enough to know the difference between like...

needing to run because you're being chased by a lion and like feeling like you need to run because you're in an uncomfortable conversation or you know you're running on a treadmill and you're getting tired and like you're feeling uncomfortable in the legs or something you know like those live in the same way in the brain so that's where grace comes in for yourself again because you're literally trying to fight your natural nature yeah so like i mean imagine how hard that is yeah and fighting with

every uncomfortable feeling, I mean, that's just going to take so much work because we're going to encounter that multiple times a day. That's cool. You know, so yeah, you need like literal dedication to that practice, you know, just like how you like eat a couple of meals in a day or something like you need to like literally make time to like get comfortable with uncomfortable emotions and see what it feels like. Create that muscle memory of like.

having these experiences one by one where like you have that uncomfortable thing and then you made through it just fine. You know, like you need to kind of like collect those and that takes like intention. Definitely. You know.

Sophie (01:11:52.8) I think it's, it's, fascinated by you and your life and how you do, like how you juggle all these things, you know, also like it's such a, such an act of power and you have such a powerful energy and you just like apply yourself and you, you, especially through the yoga and the, and the meditation, like you kind like, and I think you mentioned something similar earlier.

you want to help people, but you're also learning this at the same time. like this collective learning and being like an active part of this is just, is really, really cool. And I think that just resonates so much with me also, because I'm like everything I'm saying, I'm like, I have to tell myself time and time again, I'm learning time and time. You know, it's not, I don't feel like I said on the mountain top, I'm like, yeah, I know. But rather like,

Melissa (01:12:42.751) one day.

Sophie (01:12:44.936) Every day I try to build structures that like enable me, but like an empowering way that I can live in a way that like not, not only again, like that is good for me, but that is good for the world too.

Melissa (01:12:57.646) Because it works both ways, right? It works both ways. If you don't take care of yourself and you're like hella dysregulated or whatever, that's like going back to that example again. That's when you like yell at the person in the coffee shop because they like stood in front of you.

Sophie (01:13:10.35) And your creation is going to carry that energy.

Melissa (01:13:13.676) Right, right. I appreciate what you said for sure. I'll take it in because I do work hard, so I appreciate that. But also like certain days are better than others for sure. know, like some days, you know, especially when people ask about like, like how do you balance this and that? It's like, well, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. You know, there's some days where I'm a really good teacher and manager and then I'm like a shit mom. Then there's days where I'm an awesome mom and like.

you know, I forgot about that work thing, you know. So just kind of taking it all together, you know, we're such imperfect beings and that's where you learn stuff again, you know. You know, if you're not going through anything, you're probably not learning much. That's so true.

Sophie (01:13:52.462) Perfectly perfect.

Sophie (01:14:00.832) I wholeheartedly believe I really only learn from the discomfort. So how I like to finish this is I've shared with you the idea of this project and I'm kind of trying to find out if we can connect to future parts of us, especially collectively. Because I'm sick and tired of this whole like we're all doomed and nothing good is ever going to come out of it. It's not going to help.

Melissa (01:14:26.178) Yeah, that's not gonna help. I can feel it sometimes, but yeah.

Sophie (01:14:29.642) For sure, no, of course, we all do. But it's just so easy. And I'm in Subterra's Moon and I'm just in here in the optimistic and I just, I cannot let it stand like that. And as a former lawyer, I'm very interested in how reflective organizes itself and how we can evolve from certain structures.

Melissa (01:14:41.75) Yeah.

Melissa (01:14:50.69) Right. That was a very interesting part to your blurb. I didn't know you were a lawyer, but that makes sense too. Yeah. It definitely comes with a more interesting perspective.

Sophie (01:14:59.754) It does, because I think, especially as a lawyer, I like learned so much about how society organizes itself, but I also learned what it's lacking. And I think that was the reason why I stopped. Because I saw like, there was a whole world of like the invisible, you know, the relational aspects, the energetical aspects that were just not integrated in the system of law. The system of law is very like, if you want to like break it down to archetypes, that it's very...

masculine. It's very structure based. It's very rational. And you can never do justice to the invisible. And so I feel like in hindsight now that I'm looking back on my own transformation, it's like I set out to go look for the other wing of the butterfly. I feel like there was one wing without like, you know, I'm not putting blame on anyone. I think it's just an evolutionary thing. We're at the point where we're like, wait, we all feel the energetics. We're all

impact the body energetics, but we have so little, again, so little language around it. We have so little common sense around it. like, and it's hard because it's something that is inherently not firm, not intangible. So how can we integrate this in a way that like we can actually do it justice. And I think that's kind like my art practice is a lot of that is like maneuvering that field. I'm like, Hey, how can we do this?

Melissa (01:16:11.063) Mm-hmm.

Sophie (01:16:27.532) to like bring those two together because we need both. We need the structure, but we also need the intangible. So what I want to do is like a little thought, felt thought experiment. When you tune into the world right now, what do you feel in your body? And I don't mean like, you know, I don't want to, again, I don't want to talk about polys. I don't want to talk about like what's...

going on, what's wrong, what's bad, whatever, like just in your body where we are right now, how does it make you feel?

Melissa (01:17:04.078) Hmm. I feel a lot of contrast. And I talk about that a lot in my work too. I'm very, very fascinated by contrast and try to make space for both things in my mind or my body. So on one hand, I instinctively thought of the word constricted. You know, just like a little tight, you know. But at the same time, I do feel kind of like, almost like pockets or like...

Sophie (01:17:23.245) and just.

Sophie (01:17:26.69) Yeah.

Melissa (01:17:33.262) They're pockets that feel very open and expansive. You know, so like, you know, there's a lot of anger sitting in my body about a lot of things, but also I can feel the compassion too. Almost like, I came up with this random visual that's coming to me live in this moment, so bear with me. But almost like, know, like when you have like a sunny window or something and like, you'll just see these like.

Sophie (01:17:36.366) Love that.

Melissa (01:18:00.994) Like you'll get darkness, but like you'll see just like those shoots of light like coming through different parts. I expect. Right. Like that's kind of how I feel. You know, like there are parts that are like, you know, or like, you know, want to like fold in and be in solitude. And then those there are those parts that are like shooting out and trying to like connect with people and show love to people.

Sophie (01:18:26.606) We love that. That's so beautiful. Thank you. Here's the experimental part. If we were to apply the symbol of the butterfly as almost like a lens, we put it on the current state of the collective and perceive what you describe right now, you know, as this constricted feeling. It's just like a lot of darkness, but also light, but also like

Melissa (01:18:37.71) All right.

Sophie (01:18:55.534) Yeah, what I'm sensing is like a lot of tension, lot of like, yeah, what do you say? Contrast. You described it very vividly. Like I literally saw that video. We look at it as, as kind of like a crystal-less state, collectively, that we're in this like state of crystal-less because if you think about the state of the crystal-less or if you think about a butterfly in general, it's like the caterpillar goes into the state of the crystal-less and it completely dissolves. It turns to mush.

Melissa (01:19:03.372) Yeah.

Sophie (01:19:20.546) And that process is not beautiful. mean, there is beauty to it, but it's not a clean.

Melissa (01:19:26.19) That's clean. yeah, yeah.

Sophie (01:19:28.526) And it's disintegration, it's reorganization. If we assume that the caterpillar already knows or already, cause it's the same creature, right? Nothing leaves, nothing gets added on. So the caterpillar naturally already contains the information of the butterfly. It's just so interesting. So what I'm trying to see is how

Melissa (01:19:50.836) Mm-hmm, yes. That's such a cool way to put it,

Sophie (01:19:57.95) we already contain kind of the information of like a butterfly state of the collective. And I do believe, and this is kind of like what I'm running here, I believe that we all hold a little piece of it and then we like kind of like have to bring those pieces together so we can get create like a bigger picture. And I think that the butterflies, the butterfly creation, they're just like the visual aspect of like, you know, how hope and dreams live within us. So again, like

without naming any outcomes or how a world, a butterfly world would look like, because that's kind of like where we started scrambling, right? Totally. It's like when we get in our heads and we're like, this is not possible. Right. And that's kind of like how we get stuck. So what would a butterfly stage of humanity feel like in your body?

Melissa (01:20:52.056) I mean, the instinct that just came to my mind was just kind of like, like non-attachment to like outcome, maybe. I feel like a lot of what we get bogged down into is like, you know, fear of outcome, want for certain outcomes, you know, with relation to anything, you know? But that's like where things get messy, I feel, you know, being attached to, again, this outcome that maybe...

We can control some elements of it, but some elements we can't. And I feel like there's probably going to be a nice sense of like relief and openness when we not just let things be because like, you know, things do have to change and evolve, but yeah, just kind of like an openness with, or maybe faith, maybe faith's another word for that.

Sophie (01:21:44.046) Beautiful. So what I want you to do is I got these little star tosets. So what we're going to do is like, we're going to write these down like that. And those are like little wishes that we wish upon the fairies. Oh, nice. And the flowers, they kind of like represent the fairies. They're spirits. So we're just going to have like little wishes for the fairies and the fairies are going to take it into the universe.

Melissa (01:21:59.415) I see it.

Melissa (01:22:06.574) That's so nice. Okay, I got you. Yeah, Faith is definitely a good one. I definitely wish the fairies and the butterflies Faith. Strength and compassion. I'm writing that on one because that kind of goes to like that sense of duality that I'm always obsessed with. I love that. You know, they're kind of opposites, but we need to have both at the same time. You can't lean too far into one or the other. Balance. Right, because you know, you just never want...

Sophie (01:22:08.565) So.

Melissa (01:22:35.648) An extreme is too much in any sense. Always balance. Those would be very nice things to wish upon people I feel.

Sophie (01:22:47.726) It's for all of us. yeah. Fairies are gonna take care of it.

Melissa (01:22:50.126) For sure.

Sophie (01:23:03.0) If this episode stirred something in you, I'd love to hear about it. Send me a little whisper on Instagram at fairytea.podcast or just write the words fairy wings in my DMs. That's how I'll know you were here.

Sophie (01:23:31.054) This was a 6-2 studio production. Find us at six-two.studio for all your creative sound needs.