FIRE IN HER EYES PODCAST
A podcast about women who persevered! Stories and conversations with and about resilient women.
FIRE IN HER EYES PODCAST
Through His Eyes: My Son's View on Struggle, Strength, and Perseverance
In this intimate episode, I sit down with my son, Elias, to reflect on what it was like for him to witness me walk through life's hardest moments- and come out stronger. Together, we explore how resilience is passed down, what strength looks like from a son's perspective, and the quiet lessons that shape the next generation.
Hello and welcome to Fire in Her Eyes. This is a podcast about women who persevered through pain to find peace and purpose. So if you're looking for a little inspiration and motivation to sustain you through difficult times, join us as we share stories of women who were empowered through pain and transformed struggles into sweet success. I'm your host, Tanya Skowronski. Although Fire in Her Eyes is a podcast that focuses on women who persevered, today's episode is a bit different. My guest is my son, Elias. I asked him to join me to provide a man's perspective on women who persevere and the impact it had on him watching me rise through my struggles. You might hear me throughout the podcast call him Habibi. That's because I call all my children Habibi, which means my love. Just a little bit of background info about me and my journey. About 18 years ago, I made a very painful decision, quite possibly the most painful decision of my adult life. I was going to walk away from my marriage. I agonized over that decision for years. I sat in it, tried to understand why I was feeling the way I was feeling. tried to weigh the benefits and the risks, and struggled with the idea of walking away for multiple reasons. I come from a very conservative culture that frowns upon the idea of divorce. I didn't want to disappoint my family, including my parents, but most important of all, I was so scared for my kids. Would they understand my decision? They were so young. Would they resent me one day? How would I feel about the idea of losing 50% of their childhood because I knew it would be a shared custody agreement? And lastly, how would I be able to make it on my own? You may not know that I was a dentist for years, but I was not practicing clinical dentistry. I worked part-time in the academic world so I can be there for my children. You see, I had three kids and about four and a half years. So it was a very busy time in my life. Once I made the decision that I was going to walk away, I had to find a way to become self-sufficient. So I decided to go back and enroll in a very challenging residency program in pediatric dentistry. It was long hours with countless responsibilities, including taking call for the hospital. During my residency, my son Joseph ended up in the intensive care unit, nearly slipping into a coma. And that's how we found out that he had type 1 diabetes. A few days before flying to Houston to take my oral board exam, my son Elias, who had always been healthy, had a seizure in the classroom and lost consciousness. So here I was, dealing with these medical challenges, while trying to find myself a new home for me and my children, while navigating through the grueling challenges of residency, and I also decided to go back to school and pursue a master's degree. It was very painful. I knew that there were only so many things I could control, and I knew that divorce would not be easy, and I had to navigate through it to the best of my ability. I didn't want them to be involved in the divorce, so I tried to keep them sheltered from it. Looking back, although that was the most painful decision I made as an adult, it was quite possibly one of the best decisions I've ever made. It led me to this incredible journey of self-discovery, accomplishment, fulfillment, and dare I even say, I became a better mother. Because now I could see the world through a different lens. I recognized that there's so many shades of gray in life, that no one solution is right for everyone, and that we all have a path to take. And my path had to align with authenticity and peace above all else. So I'm so excited to have Elias here. Thank you for joining me.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01:When you think back of those hard times, what do you remember most about me?
SPEAKER_00:So if I can preface before I kind of get into that question, you mentioned to the audience that I may be also referred to as Habibi, and similarly for everyone to know, I will be referring to my mom as Mama, which is what we all call her, my siblings and I. So Mama, for the question, I think what comes to mind immediately were the memories of you coming home late, book bag in hand, whether it's scrubs or clogs on or your water bottle or your lunch bag, looking exhausted. I mean, you had gone to class while working full time while also having three other jobs, namely Maya, Joseph, and I. And so what I remember most is Your perseverance, I mean, your ability to take on all that the world was throwing at you, and despite it all, making sure that you were there for your kids. And so I think above all, it just showed your resilient spirit, but centered on making sure your kids felt loved, and that they felt like they had a parent that they can go to in times of need.
SPEAKER_01:Of course, that was very important to me. I've always said that so long as my kids were my North Star, I would not go wrong. And I knew no matter how painful or hectic or uncertain life seemed or even so overwhelming some days, I had to find a way to always show up and be there for you and your brother and sister. That was not easy. I remember moments where I felt that the simple act of breathing was painful. I've told some close friends it felt like I was at the bottom of the ocean and I could look up and everything seemed muffled. I knew that there would be a light one day. but I didn't know when that one day would come. And I've always said that I had one of two choices, sink or swim. And sinking was never an option because I owed it to the three of you and to myself to survive. And that's what kept me going. I remember how exhausting it was after a long day at work and then being in residency, having to come home and do homework and ask about your day and find ways to make sure you got to all of your activities. It was not easy, but I owed it to you guys to do it. So I did. What did strength look like in me from your point of view? So when all of this unfolded, you were about 10 years old, 10, 11 years old. Do you remember looking at me and thinking I'm strong? Do you remember looking at me worrying about me? How did you feel? Can you recall?
SPEAKER_00:So I... I don't think back then I appreciated the amount of strength it took to endure the circumstances that you were enduring. And I don't think I fully understood, just like any other kid, how much was on your plate. Because for me, I can tell that you had this exhausted look on your face, that you were beat down. But despite that, I remember very fondly the weekend after a long week of work and classes, you would plan days in Cleveland for us. You would take us out to show us love and affection or whether it was ice cream and going to the park or whether it was going to a new restaurant as the family, four of us. And so to answer your question, I don't think I recognized how strong you were or how resilient you were, but I was more so worried about you. And I think as I've aged and as my mama and I have gotten closer over the last, what, 18 years? Wow. Over the last 18 years, I think I've started to appreciate how much strength it took to withstand the constant onslaught that life was putting my mama through.
SPEAKER_01:How did what we went through affect you at the time? Do you remember?
SPEAKER_00:I don't think I could really, I mean, I don't think I really could appreciate or process what was happening at the time that it was happening. I mean, I found myself wanting to step up and help you around the house or with Maya and Joseph, my two siblings. But I don't think I really appreciated how much it affected me until later on when in my later adult life and speaking to my mama, I started to realize that it taught me how to be resilient with my own battles. I mean, my mom is the epitome of when life throws something at you, you throw something back and you keep going. And you don't give up and you put your head down and keep working. And so for me, seeing my mom at that young age, I think I was really impressionable. And whether I realize it or not, at 10, 11, 12, or at 24 now, Those moments that you came home and put your best foot forward, even if it was imperfect, really resonated with me and made me the man I am today. And as I tell my mom, I truly believe I am the man I am because of my mama.
SPEAKER_01:For me, I remember one of my biggest fears is my parents aren't divorced. So no matter how much I wanted to be understanding, I couldn't fully grasp how hard it must be to be the child of divorced parents, of having to be shuffled back and forth between two houses, of having to deal with the complexity of those relationships. How do you navigate through them? And I never ever wanted you or your brother and sister to ever feel caught in the middle. I did my best to make sure that you recognized that you had two parents who still loved you You still had a mom and dad, even if your mom and dad were no longer married to each other. But it was hard. It was very painful. There's the guilt. There's wanting so desperately to shelter you. No girl ever dreams of growing up and getting married and having kids only to turn around and end that marriage. There's a sense of failure. There's some sense of nostalgia of what could have been, what might have been. that now will no longer be. But my biggest fear was, how much would this, quote, damage my kids? And how do I minimize the damage in whatever way I could?
SPEAKER_00:And if I can add, though, I think in the spirit of the podcast, I mean, it's called Fire in Her Eyes, right? At 24 years old, looking back at those memories and having these conversations with you, you could not have been given a formula to be a good parent because you didn't experience divorce. But what was there is your desire to love your kids. And so no matter how imperfect your approach may be in certain circumstances, you remain resilient and steadfast in your desire to make sure that your kids felt your love and that your kids knew that if and when they need you, whether at 11 years old, or at 40, they can go to their mama. And so I believe it is a testament to your resilience, this fire and fervent desire to remain steadfast in loving your kids. And absent that, who knows what would have happened. But what is for certain is you remain loyal to your kids and you always sought out to do what's best for them.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you, Habibi. I've always said that the only form of the truest, purest, most powerful and unconditional love is that between a parent and a child. I wholeheartedly believe that. How would you say our relationship has changed over the years because of everything we've been through? You know, I've had moments where I wondered, how would life have turned out differently if I had stayed, if I had not made that decision? Would you have grown up healthier and happier and more fulfilled and more adjusted, how do you think our relationship has evolved because of everything we've been through?
SPEAKER_00:I think, and I love this question, if you know my mama, you know that the three people she talks about the most, if you're a dental student of hers, you know that we're on her slide deck. If you see her Instagram, you know that we are featured all over Instagram. And I think Both of those I use as examples to show that our relationship has evolved from mother-son to friend, to best friend. You know, my mama's experiences, she may carry some guilt with her because she may have realized that she made a mistake here or mistake there. But what I try to tell my mama and what I think more people need to hear is is it's not about avoiding making mistakes, but it's about recognizing that you are going to give it your all to do the best that you can and you live with whatever may happen. And so my mom's, I'd like to call it authentic vulnerability, her openness with her children and with me in particular, only grew my relationship with my mama and not in the traditional, you know, parent-child hierarchy, right? It... blossomed into a friendship to where my mama, because of her experiences, because she didn't have the playbook to understand how to raise children as a divorced mother, she sought to learn from her kids. And so she shed this layer of, I'm the parent and you're the child, and instead said, how can you teach me to be a better parent? And because of the divorce and because of your strength and your steadfast desire to love your children through it all, you've learned as much as we've learned about one another. And I think when you're in a reciprocal relationship in any capacity, the relationship will grow regardless. And it can only get stronger through that reciprocity. And so my specialty is long-winded responses to very short and straightforward questions, but... That's kind of my spiel on that.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know that it's a simple and straightforward question, and I appreciate this discussion, truly. I went through counseling for years to help sustain me through those painful moments, to enlighten me, to broaden my perspective on things. I needed that professional support to guide me Thank you so much. Because there's something so beautiful and powerful about seeing the world through our children's eyes at various stages. I had to remind myself that I didn't grow up in the world that you grew up in. I didn't experience the same things you were experiencing. So I couldn't just take my set of rules and values and force them upon you. But the divorce taught me to flex and bend and and see this from a different perspective. I know one of our favorite quotes, both you and me, is, pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding. And pain truly broke me open. It helped me to see things so differently, more differently than I had ever been. I grew up very traditional, very right or wrong, black or white, yes or no. And the pain really stopped me dead in my tracks and helped me to look at the world differently. It really changed my perspective and I'm thankful for all that we went through. You know, out of respect, I don't sit here and go into the details of my challenges and all that I went through because the details are irrelevant. But nevertheless, I'm so appreciative to where it led us. So what's something you learned about me as your mother that you didn't realize at the time when we were going through that storm?
SPEAKER_00:You know, I think it goes back to that first or one of the first questions we had. I didn't realize how strong you had to be to keep us together but also to keep yourself together to be there for your children i mean i i think my main takeaway from my experiences as a kid and you know being raised by my mama was that she was just resilient she refused to give up on her children regardless of the highs and lows i mean mind you three children That means at three separate stages we are in our teenage years, which means three different personalities and approaches for each child, right? And so my mama, I didn't realize until recently or maybe in the last several years, she was a therapist, a chef, a personal trainer, a programming director, a chauffeur, a cleaner. I mean, my mom put on all the hats, and I think... In many ways, a lot of women, at least from my experiences, that have had to endure a lot of trauma or be forced to be resilient, have had to learn how to put on all these different hats. And my mama is no different. And so to answer your question in a more straightforward manner, I learned recently that my mama really tried to do it all and remained true to herself through it all and honest with not only herself, but her children.
SPEAKER_01:So one of my biggest fears, like I mentioned, going through the divorce is What impact was this going to have on my children? Is it going to traumatize them? Is it going to make them lose their faith in the concept of happily ever after? Are they going to be turned off by the idea of marriage? Will they resent me for choosing to walk away from my marriage, not understanding the reasons why I made that painful decision? And I had no way of predicting where we would end up. I was free falling because I knew that even if if I didn't know where I was going to land, it was better than where I had been. But how do you think my journey ultimately shaped you to become the person that you are today and continuing to become as you're evolving through the years?
SPEAKER_00:So without going into a rabbit hole discussion here about just one particular question, the main thing that I believe your journey taught me about who I want to be and how I can get there was is the power of acceptance in that I'm gonna always give it my all and remain true to myself no matter how much that may seem like an impossible task to do so, no matter how much it may seem to be an unpopular decision. That so long as I stay true to myself and I stay resilient in that pursuit of authenticity, I should learn to accept that whatever happens will happen. And there's a phrase that I like to say a lot that in the end, it will be OK. And if it's not OK, then it's not the end. And so in the pursuit of learning how to be resilient, I have to also learn how to be vulnerable, that I can't shelter or close off my worldview to only what I see in front of me, but rather I should learn from those that I love and care about and that they love and care about me. And because from those perspectives, I can be exposed to a new understanding of something that can teach me a lot about myself, but most importantly, about how to treat others. And so with my mama's example, she was broken at a time of her life where she's juggling raising three kids, While cooking, cleaning, driving us to school, working, and herself going to school. But through those experiences, she forced herself to learn from her kids. To take our feedback as something to be valued. And that because of the vulnerability, her ability to be resilient, put her best foot forward, and accept that whatever happens will happen... Lended itself to making me the man I am today. And so I always told my mama she may not realize the full impact of how much her resilience has shaped the man I am today. And that so long as I stay true to what I need to do and stay true to myself and don't give up, things will be okay. And if they're not okay in the moment, you keep going. When my mom felt like she was drowning, she kept going. And I'd argue, at least Mama, I don't know about you, but I feel like it's paid dividends not only for me, but for Maya and Zuzu. Zuzu is my younger brother, Joseph. We call him Zuzu.
SPEAKER_01:So I couldn't agree with you more. I love where we are. I love how we can... have discussions with such openness and transparency and acceptance i love that you challenge my thinking i love that you come to me with these thought-provoking questions and scenarios and you challenge me you challenge my outlook on things I love these discussions I get to have now with you, Joseph and Maya. It really is beautiful to see the world through your eyes and how much better you are prepared for life than the 24-year-old Tanya ever was. you are much more aware of the realities of life, of the challenges, of the highs and the lows. And I think you make choices with far greater awareness than I ever did. And I hope that one of the greatest lessons I taught you is that mistakes, and I put that in quotation marks, are often life's greatest lessons. So it just depends on how you choose to look at them. What life lesson are you trying to learn in that moment rather than just beating yourself up for whatever quote mistake or failure you're experiencing? What kind of strength do you hope to carry forward in your life? I know now you're in law school and you have big dreams and whether it's personally or professionally in terms of career, in terms of personal relationships, What kind of strength do you hope to carry forward as you're carving the path to your own life?
SPEAKER_00:I think if I can provide, I have two strengths that I've been very mindful of, at least during my law school journey and journey into young adulthood. First, it's protecting my peace or the strength to protect my well-being. I believe protecting my peace requires, which will be my second strength, understanding how to be vulnerable and so both of those require a lot of conscious effort not only to be mindful of them but the more important aspect to practice them i think what i learned from my mama is no matter how much she felt like she was drowning she stayed true to herself and promised to do the right thing by her children no matter how difficult it was for us or for herself which required an element of vulnerability for her to shed any ego or pride and to confront herself in the mirror and ask herself what does she need to do for the well-being of her family. And so life is full of people who are going to give you their perspectives, who are going to find something to complain about or something to provide their opinion or criticism about. But none of that matters. If it's not for your well-being or to protect your peace, seek out other people's opinions, but ask yourself whether it does your mind, your body, or your soul any good to heed that advice. If it doesn't, be honest and put that boundary with yourself. Protect your peace above all, because if you can't protect your peace, or if I can't have the strength to protect my own peace, I can't be there for those that I love and care about in the same way that they want to be there for me.
SPEAKER_01:So what would you say to another child or a teenager who might be watching their mom going through something really difficult and painful? You've been there. What advice would you give them?
SPEAKER_00:Be there for your mama. I tell you this, mama. Every good man has an amazing mother behind them. I think an excellent man is defined by the way he treats his mama, his mother. If your mama is going through something, you sense that she's crying or she had a long day. Sometimes all it takes is, mama, how are you doing? Mama, can I help you? And if that's too big of a step to take, I understand it sounds silly, but Do the dishes. Maybe tidy up the apartment or the house. Put the shoes away. Maybe bake cookies for when they get home. But give them another reason to keep going. Because as my mama touched on in this podcast and in our own conversations, sometimes all they have to go off of to understand whether they're going to be okay are their own thoughts. And when you're going through a lot of problems in life, Your thoughts won't be kind to yourself. They won't be kind to you, I should say. And so put your hand out there for your mama and just be there for them. Because sometimes all they need to know is that their child loves them and that they will stand by them in the same way that their mama will always stand by their child.
SPEAKER_01:Was there a part of you that struggled with not really understanding, especially in the early days, why I was making that decision? Were you confused? Were you angry? Were you sad? Were you resentful? These are all the fears that I had. How would my kids feel knowing that I was responsible single handedly for making a decision that was going to alter their lives? I mean, you know. How did you feel? How did you deal with those emotions?
SPEAKER_00:Sometimes kids don't understand. I won't even say sometimes. I will say most of the time, the child will not understand what's best for them. You have lived a longer life, arguably decades more than your child has, which means you can see things far out in advance that your child cannot see. Because as children, we're stuck in the sandbox, right? or playing with slime or with putty or Legos, or making a mess in the kitchen, but we don't understand anything outside of our own worldview. And so sometimes you don't make decisions based off whether it will make your child happy in the short run. Sometimes you do what's best for them in the long run. And I like to tell my mom, I won't take credit for this expression, somewhere on social media I heard, As kids, we say, mom, don't tell me what to do. We grow up, and by we, I mean myself, grow up and say, mama, tell me what to do. And we only get that perspective because, well, we've lived a couple more decades, right?
SPEAKER_01:And
SPEAKER_00:so for any mothers out there, any women that are a guardian for a child or are a mother, right? Sometimes the reaction of your child will not be an indicator of whether you're doing something that's good. Sometimes you have to trust your judgment, your life experiences, and confront yourself, look at yourself in the mirror and ask whether you think in the long run they will benefit from this decision. Make that decision and be at peace with what may come from it.
SPEAKER_01:If I can digress for just a minute. I've had the chance to work with many young women in their 20s and you are in your 20s. I've seen so many who end up in really toxic relationships involved with a narcissist. And I've often wondered if they don't see that pattern of behavior or is it they don't have enough self-love to recognize their worth to get up and walk away. What would you tell somebody who is involved in such a relationship? And now that you yourself are in a committed relationship, how do you treat your partner? Being the child of divorced parents, how are you in your relationship with your other half?
SPEAKER_00:So with regards to the first point, I'm no psychologist. I don't have any certification or license to provide any concrete advice. But my general thoughts are for someone who's stuck in a relationship with a narcissistic individual or where there's a lot of mental games being played and they feel trapped.
SPEAKER_01:Like gaslighting, right? I see it over and over again.
SPEAKER_00:It's difficult because when you're in it, you don't realize how deep you are in the problem, how much it sucked you up and it's kept you there and trapped you there. And it can feel overbearing when people will call it out and tell you, hey, I'm worried about you, because then it seems like it's indicting who you are at your core, which I think leads me to one of our original points we were talking about in the podcast, which is exercising vulnerability. That being willing to not only think about being vulnerable, but practicing being vulnerable and listening to those that you care about and that you value their opinions and really allowing yourself to listen to what they have to say. Because chances are you will probably miss something. You have blind spots. And so that doesn't mean you listen to everyone's opinion, but only those that you trust and hold near and dear to you. And you hear what they have to say because they are doing something out of your best interest, similar to what you did for us as kids when you had to raise us with practices here, practices there, this and that. And so I think that goes into the next point. If you can remind me, you were asking... How do I balance that in a relationship?
SPEAKER_01:Right. So what I was asking you is, I see what a beautiful relationship you have now. There's mutual trust, respect, love, kindness. There are healthy boundaries. You communicate so beautifully and honestly. You... state your opinion and she listens to you. She hears you out because she's interested in understanding your perspective, not because she wants to cut you down or prove you wrong and vice versa. I love watching the two of you interact. I always had that concern that because your parents are divorced, what are you going to be like in a relationship? And I love seeing you in such a beautiful, healthy relationship and where it's truly two best friends and equal partners who support one another. What makes you that way?
SPEAKER_00:The parent-child dynamic, or at least the experience I had, you know, being the oldest and you trying to do all that you could for us. Granted, my lovely girlfriend and I, we have a romantic relationship. my mother and I it is a mother and son relationship and dynamic that's evolved into this friendship but at the core of any relationship I'd argue is the desire to learn from each other with no hierarchy of who has the moral high ground or who has authority to speak on what but rather mutual respect care and compassion I learned that from my mama at a really young age and that My mom would come to us and ask us for our opinion. And lo and behold, she would actually act on what we are saying. She would take into account what her children want to know or want to communicate. And she would have those difficult conversations in the spirit of empowering us to speak up and to feel like our opinions matter. And so I don't think it makes a difference that I'm now using those words in a romantic relationship with my partner. I think my childhood experience only reinforced that skill, I'd argue, as a skill, or that belief in my current relationship. And so I don't think it's important that, you know, your mom and dad are divorced or they're married. I think it's your individual relationship with whether your mother or your father, or even both if you're fortunate enough to have that kind of dynamic, and not many people are. But as long as you have this relationship founded on reciprocity between you and at least one parent, where both parties are respected by the other and there's love that transcends just categories, you will be okay in future relationships. And so for those that are concerned about being in narcissistic relationships, where there's a lot of gaslighting, a lot of mental anguish taking place, lean on those individuals that have that reciprocity already built into your life. We all have that one friend or the one mentor or teacher or someone in our life that We can hear their opinions and they can hear ours and we respect and we heed their warnings. Lean on those people when you're struggling to get out.
SPEAKER_01:Right, I think one of the most humbling parts of being a parent is I remember so vividly when the three of you were born, I vowed to myself that I would spend the rest of my life committed to teaching you to empowering you to infusing your minds and souls with valuable life lessons and the irony is that now I've reached this phase of my life where you are the ones who are teaching me. You are the ones who are empowering me. You are the ones who are now cheering me on and making me believe in myself and dream big and continue to pursue a life of authenticity, a life that aligns with who I am at the core and do so unapologetically. So I know you've got a lot of responsibilities and very little time. So I really appreciate you being here with me you and I can talk for hours and still have so much to say thank you for being here it really means the world to me
SPEAKER_00:thank you for having me mama
SPEAKER_01:thank you for spending time with me today if you enjoyed this content please make sure you subscribe to this podcast and leave a quick review to help us share the message