The Johnjay Van Es Podcast
From the mastermind behind one of the most popular morning shows in the country, Johnjay Van Es brings his signature blend of curiosity, humor, and fearless honesty to the podcast world. If you’ve ever had a question on your mind but were too afraid to ask, don’t worry—Johnjay’s got you covered.
With hilarious, jaw-dropping conversations, amazing guests, and the inside scoop on everything you actually care about, this show is a wild ride through the stories you’ve never heard and the truths nobody else dares to say. Whether it’s celebrities, trendsetters, or just the most interesting people on the planet, nothing is off-limits, and no question is too bold.
Come for the interviews. Stay for the insanity. This is the podcast you’ll be talking about. Don’t miss it!
The Johnjay Van Es Podcast
What If Every Argument Was a Chance to Get Closer?
What happens when an engineer and a nurse discover their true calling as marriage coaches?
Meet Aaron and Jocelyn Freeman, the couple behind a relationship coaching movement that’s helped thousands of partners shift from surviving to thriving.
From almost breaking up after a gym date to building a coaching brand with nearly a million followers, their story is full of real-life lessons. They share how their own clashing conflict styles became the foundation for practical tools that couples can actually use, tools that go far beyond traditional therapy sessions.
Their message is simple but powerful: you don’t have to end your marriage, just the version of it that isn’t working. With honesty, humor, and wisdom, the Freemans remind us that relationships evolve and that reinvention is part of the journey.
Whether you’re dating, married, or somewhere in between, this episode will change how you think about love, conflict, and commitment.
Hit play now and subscribe for more conversations that help you build the relationships you really want.
Okay, so welcome to our podcast. This is a little bit different today, because this podcast is a spinoff of our radio show. Okay, so I don't really do an intro, but meet the Freemans.
Speaker 2:Hey.
Speaker 1:Thank you, welcome to our podcast. My friend Walter, co-hosting Walter, you guys, yes, so you guys have all known each other for a long time. I feel so left out.
Speaker 3:We've known each other for a really long time, really long time.
Speaker 2:Nine years yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that, jerry, jerry Roberts.
Speaker 2:Writing a book yeah, barry Roberts, writing a book. It was early in our entrepreneur journey so we were learning like marketing strategies, and writing a book was one of them that we learned about and we met him and I mean we've seen each other evolve so much. He, I mean, we were brand new and so you've. You've believed us. You've always been a cheerleader for us.
Speaker 1:So how many books have you guys written?
Speaker 2:Well, one was like a self-published style, so like a mini book. Then our first official book where it was done through a publisher was called the Argument Hangover, or is called the Argument Hangover. We just got a book deal with Penguin Random House.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, and so that will be coming out next. Yeah, we haven't announced the title, thank you. So you guys are marriage therapists, couples therapists.
Speaker 2:Marriage coaches.
Speaker 1:Marriage coaches. So what's the difference between a therapist and a coach and that whole deal?
Speaker 2:Well, first off, coaches can say a lot more than therapists. Therapists have a lot of rules. They can get in trouble, right with certain things, whereas as coaches we can say anything we want to someone. So there's a lot more freedom. But it's also just the focus right. A lot of couples will come to us after trying therapy and there are some great therapists, by the way. We're not at all trying to discredit that but they'll say we sat on the couch and we vented and ended up arguing right, we just walked out arguing, we didn't get tools, we didn't get skills. So, coaches, if you think about athletics too right, they're going to challenge you, they're going to tell you what you need to practice, what you need to do differently. So we really equip couples with tools, skills, so people find it really effective.
Speaker 1:We enjoy it how long? Like what's your credibility? What makes you guys be who you are like? Why do people want, like a lot of you say, like sports, like athletes? Like my sons play basketball, they have coaches, they have trainers and their trainers also train nba players. Their trainers also got Division I athletes. You know, like, what's the background for you guys?
Speaker 2:Well, we both have our master's in psychology. Well, that's enough.
Speaker 4:And then we created an accredited program.
Speaker 2:So we have a whole curriculum and it's in the proof right, it's in the number of couples that we've worked with Well you guys are huge.
Speaker 1:I've only heard fantastic things about you guys.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but if you think about going back to when we first met, I remember you were like we want to be couples coaches.
Speaker 1:I'm like yeah, they weren't couples coaches then.
Speaker 3:They were, but they virtually had no following. It was just a vision.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:And I'm like well, that's interesting, you never want to rain on anybody's parade, but fast forward. Describe the size of your scope today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're almost at a million followers, and I mean our podcast ranks consistently in the top and got this great big book deal. Penguin Random House is calling it like one of their lead titles for 2027.
Speaker 2:So it is interesting though, because, if you think about it, just a couple years ago we had hardly any following, so we had our baby. She's almost four, but at the time we had a newborn and we almost lost everything, so we made a couple investments that we weren't very strategic about, and they all failed at once. We literally were down to dollars, and we had this newborn baby smaller following, and now where we are I mean, that's the cool thing about life, right? You can never really know what's coming. It's just mind blowing to see where we're going.
Speaker 4:So when you say, you guys lost everything, I also have to just give credit, because this guy sitting right here was one of the key players that helped us avoid disaster. Well, how Well. That's his world, right, like our world is marriage, but his world is real estate.
Speaker 3:He just called me and said I'm on fire. Yeah, we just kind of stepped in and I said here's what's going to happen, here's what's happening, and just kind of helped him through a difficult time like I would really do for anything.
Speaker 1:Like financial advice.
Speaker 3:Well, they were in a real estate transaction that was, that was going bad, in a hurry and okay, and those have a way of compounding on themselves. Um, but the thing that you guys, you have this message and you have a very unique way of communicating and you're all self-taught, so what's what's really just in inspirational to me is how you went from zero but you just kept at it and you had a vision and you never wavered Not for. And then all of a sudden, you know here you are. So I think, for people listening, it's such a great example of just have a vision and stick to it, no matter what and then hone that what.
Speaker 1:What were the steps like? How did you do that? How do you get to a million followers?
Speaker 2:well, I would say, definitely the consistency right. We were creating content, even when it was just a few people watching. So it was a message, it was something we were inspired by and I I think it was the why, and people talk a lot about that. Right, have your why, but for me, I would run through a wall for this, and it really stems from my experience growing up and watching my parents divorce and I think I just really care about marriages. I care about families staying together, and not just staying together but thriving. So it's really like this fire that stems from being a child and not having a voice. And now I have a voice and now I can make a difference and I can impact people. So it's not like a niche that I just am like, well, it's a good idea. It's like, no, this is my purpose. And then, obviously, we're passionate about marriage because we had such different experiences growing up and so we just really love being able to have couples understand what they learned growing up, but what they can create.
Speaker 1:So you're a child of divorce, Are you as well? Aaron?
Speaker 4:No, my parents are still together, 47 years. So coming up on that 50-year mark, and it's funny because not only are we writing about the challenge that we went through in 2022, how you helped us, but our backgrounds like our new book coming in a year is going to have all these stories in it. My parents are still together, but there's really no better upbringing. I mean, you know you can get into trauma and you can have tragedy happen, but you could look at my upbringing and my parents are Christian. I went to a Christianian school k through 12. My dad quit a corporate job uh, when I was in like fourth grade to teach at our school and be at the sporting events that me and my brother were at. So he was always there. So on the surface, that's like a good childhood.
Speaker 4:I also never saw my parents argue one time didn't mean that they didn't, it was just I didn't see it. And so whenever there was tension with my parents, it was like communication immediately stopped. There was a pause, my dad would be the one walking out of the room and the next thing I know that we're just playing in the yard, playing kickball or playing basketball or whatever. So that becomes the my emotional home. That becomes what I know in relationships. So when I get well, there's a longer story. I mean, I'm broken up with most of my adult life and relationships don't work out and I get cheated on a few times. So I start to convince myself that I'm not even meant for marriage at all. I meet Jocelyn at LA Fitness Literally.
Speaker 3:Love the gym.
Speaker 1:Love the gym. Wait that new one.
Speaker 2:How long have you guys been married? This was an older one.
Speaker 4:And actually our anniversary is in two weeks. We'll be married 10 years.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, okay wait, you're talking about the Biltmore LA Fitness, the one that's got the pool and the roof.
Speaker 4:So that's Lifetime? Oh, that's Lifetime, the earlier one.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's torn down now it's, I think, probably so you know I met her, we exchanged emails wait, walk me through that. Are you lifting weights? Do you go to her and flirt with her like how they?
Speaker 4:had a curl bar rack and she has a tattoo on her back. So when she went to grab a curl bar, funny enough and I was like sitting on the ground and I'm like I gotta go talk to her. But I've always failed trying to approach women, especially at the gym and then. So this time I just was much more authentic. I even got an email, but what did you say?
Speaker 2:My name's Aaron, basically, I mean you know, it was just very authentic. He didn't have like a pickup line and I think that's what made me talk to him, was? He was, I think, literally just like hey, I'm Aaron, what's your name?
Speaker 1:And he was like curls for the girls Not with him.
Speaker 2:But I saw him. I mean, I was eyeing him too.
Speaker 1:Okay, wait. What's the tattoo on your back?
Speaker 2:It's lotus flowers and cherry blossoms.
Speaker 1:Is it lower back?
Speaker 2:It's the top quarter.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so, yeah, he was just sweet and I loved that he asked for my email address instead of my phone number it was smooth.
Speaker 4:Let me ask you this it was safer for me. That was the day before asking for Instagram Are you close with your mother?
Speaker 4:Not in particular. So yeah, going back to that story, it was you know, what I witnessed is what I witnessed, and so we get together and it's not like any of my history is now magically gone, right. So she becomes more interested in me quicker than is comfortable. So I actually tried to break up with her. Oh, wow, and that was on the phone, and so we actually hung up the phone and she called right back. This was way before in a smartphone, so I had to flip it open. It's the green screen. But I answered it again and she said you know what? That just doesn't work for me like that was her response to saying I want to break up with you.
Speaker 4:Let's be friends. How long you've been together at this point?
Speaker 2:a few months, yeah, and I well, because I knew it was fear he wasn't saying, hey, I don't think we're aligned in our values or we're just too different. Like, like he. All of what he was saying was you know, this is great and you're great, and I feel all these positive things. What he was sharing was his fear of being hurt again, of how serious it was becoming, and so there was a moment where I was literally thinking about it and I was like, wow, I could go the rest of my life wondering what, if, or I could just put my heart on the line right now and just say the bold thing. And so I was like, let me do this, let me see what happens.
Speaker 4:Like when we talk about something that hits your subconscious, like I couldn't have even told you if you asked me, what if this girl was to call you back, what would have you be back in? Well, I got nothing. But she calls back, and it was the way that she said it like really spoke to the subconscious fear that I don't have to fear rejection or that she's going to just break up with me. And it spoke right to. It just gave me confidence like well, obviously I'm back into this now, fast forward.
Speaker 4:That's not like all the things I had to work through because I didn't see my parents argue at all. So you know, we go, we're good for a while, we get a house, but we start to have conflict come up eventually, like all couples do. And my only model for conflict is to you know, we're in the car, I stopped saying anything, I look out the window or we have conflict, and I walk out the room just like my dad did, because that has to be better than yelling, screaming, getting aggressive and reacting. But I find out that that has my partner feel isolated, incomplete in the conversation, and from her upbringing she doesn't, she won't leave a conversation alone. She's like we're gonna get this resolved, so these were literally the opposite forces.
Speaker 4:So we realized early on that, hey, there are things that we both learned, that were, that were modeled to us, and we can either choose to keep those going or we're going to really do the work together and unlearn these patterns and learn some more productive things for the success it's amazing that you didn't, that you took it the way that you took it, rather than be like okay, next yeah.
Speaker 1:To have the balls to call back.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you for saying that. Who does that? I know, especially on the women's side.
Speaker 1:At this point had you already had your psychology degree and you already knew.
Speaker 2:Not at that point, but I was in a leadership program so thankfully I had a coach that was challenging me and my communication and where I would operate from insecurities and fears and so I was being challenged and really seeing where I would really play out just insecurity. And I was like you know what, what if I was just confident? What if I just said the bold thing, put my heart on the line and I could be turned down? But I didn't want to have that. What if I really changed so much in having a coach and really seeing just how the way I showed up in relationships was not authentic. I was a chameleon. I would not say what I really meant and felt because I was afraid of being rejected.
Speaker 1:But also for him. You had to have gone. I love this guy. I'm not just going to let him go. There's something like this. There's more to it. It's just not some guy.
Speaker 2:It was just something that I felt like because it funny enough, when I met him and we went on a date, I was actually in like a dating spree.
Speaker 3:I you know what's so funny I was.
Speaker 2:I was not like a big go on a frequent date kind of person. I was a relationship person. But I had got, I had gotten broken up with some I can't remember maybe a year before and I was working on myself and again I just really changed my relationship to myself, loved myself. I didn't need a relationship like I did in the past. And so once I felt that, I'm telling you, men were coming like what is it? Moths to a flame?
Speaker 4:I mean just I was our first date. I find out years later that I was just one of two that same day. I had the morning slot and she had dinner already playing with someone else.
Speaker 2:But it was funny because, honestly, my energy changing did attract people, and so I. But here's the thing I was always authentic with people. I never ghosted them. I always said, you know, hey, I don't really feel the connection with you. And people said like, thank you for being honest.
Speaker 1:But did you say I got to wrap this up, I got another date.
Speaker 2:Well, I, after I went out to breakfast with him. We went to breakfast, I canceled the next date and I didn't book anymore because I felt such a connection with him.
Speaker 3:So I was like oh, you canceled everybody else.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Okay, but you met him at the gym, Did you?
Speaker 1:were you on a dating app or website? Before that it was just guys coming up to you or you did you ever go up to a guy and ask him out.
Speaker 2:No, I was literally attracting people just because of my energy. So it was at gyms, it was at coffee shops.
Speaker 1:Introductions okay, so let me ask this you guys have been now about to celebrate 10 years 10 years married together 12 okay, and in that time have either of you ever been out somewhere and bumped into someone that you've been, that you were on the dating spree with like oh my god, that's Jerry.
Speaker 2:We went on a minute with him.
Speaker 1:That should be cool.
Speaker 2:We did. You actually met one of my exes like had a conversation, have I?
Speaker 4:met one of those. It's actually by the yoga studio you go to now, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, someone local. Have I met any of yours? I'm trying to think.
Speaker 4:I don't have any. Oh, I didn't need to college, so that was my early years.
Speaker 2:You dated people you weren't in long-term committed relationships.
Speaker 4:No I think my longest before that was two months maybe, so that was a pattern for you Two months break up.
Speaker 1:Two months break up being broken up with or being broken up with.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean I never was the one that broke up with someone else, so I'm always on the breakup end.
Speaker 1:So what's it like for you when you met someone that she'd been with?
Speaker 4:I was pretty confident because I think we had been together. We may have even been married at that point.
Speaker 1:It could be, yeah something like that Is it important to know the past. You know what's funny?
Speaker 4:That's a good question, I think from my own fear I don't know if this was intentionally good or just again from fear I said I don't have, I didn't have any history anyway. Right, so this is just all from my benefit. I said, let's, let's just erase the past and not talk about the past I because I didn't.
Speaker 4:I didn't even have any partners before her. So there's like literally nothing for me. And yeah, I didn't really necessarily want to know and I wanted to have a clean slate. So I told her early on, like it doesn't matter to me, before me, you made the decisions you made, and so here we are now making decisions together. So what? What relevance is the past? Anyway?
Speaker 1:and that's strong. We definitely how do you?
Speaker 3:how do you go from? Because prior to being relationship coaches, you're an engineer. You were in multi-level marketing no, I was a nurse.
Speaker 2:Oh, you were a nurse.
Speaker 3:Oh you were a nurse. Okay, Like, how do you go from engineer and nurse to, oh, we're going to be couples coaches? I mean, that's not a straight path.
Speaker 2:I think people today are making a lot more pivots than was common before. Right, I think you probably know people who. They went to school for something and then they realize this isn't it for me. So that's the funny thing about college, right? You're supposed to just, at 18, figure out what you want to be and you're kind of picking from a board of like I guess that. And so I think just from growing up and having experiences and then meeting, it was like discovering our purpose.
Speaker 4:I have a slightly different answer for that, as well, it was necessity for me to learn relationship skills because I had been such a failure in relationships that I really wanted a marriage to work with her and I didn't feel confident that I knew if we're playing basketball, if we're doing anything, it's what can I learn?
Speaker 4:It's clear what I can learn, and then I start to do it and then I get competent at it and then that's when you have a lot more confidence to get on the court with people that are higher, higher level. So I didn't know what it took to have a successful marriage. I'm like let's really seek this out, because I want to be confident that if we're going to get married, that we know the tools, we know what we can do to be successful, and it was out of necessity for our own success. Then learning those skills and tools and kind of having more of a, if you will, entrepreneurial mentality that we don't have to just work the jobs we went to school for. People were asking us like it seems like you guys have communication and conflict resolution skills down. So then we just built that into more of a sharing and that it was a business and now it's a brand.
Speaker 2:I mean, and people really liked the idea of something that wasn't counseling. So when we were talking about, yeah, we're learning how to communicate, we're learning how to handle conflict, and they were like, oh, outside of a therapist's office, that was interesting. This was before Instagram was blowing up and now everyone you know is creating content online, especially for men.
Speaker 4:If you tell typically males like we're going to take a coaching approach, think of the sport, think of running, think of basketball. You've got to coach to get better. That's what we're going to do in this marriage coaching, we're going to give you skills and tools. We're going to hold you accountable. This is going to work.
Speaker 1:But do you guys coach individuals or always couples, always?
Speaker 2:couples so it's's not like is it ever one at a time, it's always we will, once in a while, just have like an additional session with one of them if we need to really go deeper into something. But we work with the couple because we've had a lot of people ask us well, could you just work with me? My partner's not open to it. You only get one side of the story and so one person. I could be working with them and they're telling my partner this and my partner that, and so it's like painting this picture of like wow, you have kind of a crappy partner.
Speaker 1:So it's always two on two. It's not like he'll go with the husband and you'll go with the wife.
Speaker 3:And there is because I've been on the other side of this. Okay, and they are clearly next level.
Speaker 4:And.
Speaker 3:I've been on the other side, I can see it well. I've been on the other side of counseling, where the counselors just never have an opinion about anything. Everything's kind of neutral and and you just kind of sit there and you walk away and nothing happens.
Speaker 1:Their style is coaches, holy moly like if you're, if you're out of line, wait, you've witnessed them coach other people.
Speaker 3:No, me, me and my relationships, holy moly. So you?
Speaker 1:sat on the couch in their world.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And did we challenge you?
Speaker 3:Oh, not only challenged, but honest, constructive. Hey, buddy.
Speaker 1:So are you the problem in that relationship? Does that relationship still exist? Hey?
Speaker 3:buddy. So are you the problem in that relationship? Does that relationship still exist? Um it, it it.
Speaker 3:It does indirectly, but um, yes, I was the problem and and she was the problem I mean different ways yeah, everybody brings in this but then you agree to disagree and you're like maybe this isn't right but but to unpack your side and get clarity and then there be, and then this needs to happen in order to move forward, is something that that I just never got inside therapy, and so you guys have. I don't know how you you manifested it, but you've got this amazing skill to get to the heart of the issue while both people are there, without putting that other person kind of on the defensive, but doing it in a way to where you know, hey, that behavior is just not going to be conducive to a relationship that's going to be productive.
Speaker 1:So, again, I just Well, as far as coaching goes, do you guys ever coach and say you know what, maybe you guys shouldn't be together, Maybe this isn't?
Speaker 2:right. We're very honest with people and we had our first coaching couple. This is early on. They were engaged, had a wedding date and we said, hey, we do recommend you probably put a pause on this and really work on the issues. This was the first couple.
Speaker 4:Now, today, god challenged us honestly if, like the first couple, like we were going to do marriage coaching and the very first couple ever and we had a friendship with them too we were at a crossroads like, okay, if we're really going to do this, are we going to be honest with what we believe is true, right, and so I feel like that was God really saying. This is your initiation into this.
Speaker 1:So what happened with that couple?
Speaker 2:They actually did put a pause on the wedding and they worked on themselves and the relationship then got married and it was much better.
Speaker 4:It's not even that simple. I ended up running into him like four years later and he said they pretty much canceled the wedding. He went on like a year self-improvement and he said they, they pretty much they canceled the wedding. He went on like a year self-improvement, traveled like to different countries. He had this awakening, came back as different people and then they they got engaged and got married again. So when I met him he was like you know what he was like? It was really challenging to hear you guys say that we shouldn't, but he's like now sitting here, he's like I'm so glad we're actually different people.
Speaker 2:Now here's the thing about today because of our brand and the type of videos we put out, we're parents now, and so we do loop in a lot of the parenting elements. We attract mostly couples who have kids. Of course, there's exceptions, so it's more complicated, right, like we're not going to straight up be like you shouldn't be together when you have kids, because my mission is to keep families together, right, but not just surviving, thriving, and so, rather than being like, hey, this is like probably too hard, you guys should give up. The stakes are too high when you have kids.
Speaker 2:There really is an impact. We have this motto you don't have to end the marriage, to end this version of the marriage so you can end how it's been existing, the patterns that have been occurring, how you both are playing a role, as you were talking about, and really draw a line in the sand and have an honest conversation about what are we both going to change for the better and what are we going to do moving forward and of course, there's specifics to talk about, but I think that's what's possible. You know people, when they encounter challenges in marriage, the quick impulse is to be out rather than to change our marriage. I can change my patterns. You don't have to change your partner.
Speaker 1:Change your patterns yeah, a lot of people kind of draw that line in the sand and they're like I'm out. If he ever does this, I'm out. If she ever does this, I'm out. And then you realize actually what a strong person you need to be to work through it to make it successful.
Speaker 2:Well, you need a growth mindset to be married. I think that is the most important thing is that when you get married to someone, you're with someone who has a growth mindset, who, just like they, care about their career, and they would be like, oh yeah, of course I would go to continuing education, I'd get a coach you know to be better and better in my career. I would do the same thing in the marriage. I think the biggest red flag if you're like for anyone listening and they're dating, considering marrying someone, is if they say, oh, I don't, I don't believe in that stuff, I don't believe in that, like you know, therapy and coaching stuff. That's a red flag because you know why what they're really saying is I'm not willing to look at myself.
Speaker 3:What have you guys learned about your, your coaching, or like, how is it evolved? And then how is your relationship evolved? And you know not everybody it evolved. And then how is your relationship evolved? And you know, not everybody, it's not always easy, right?
Speaker 2:nope, been in a little rough patch recently. Even we're very open. We have a podcast as well, and we are very open about how there are happy and hard moments of marriage between you two yeah, of course when you do your podcast is it weekly, monthly, Weekly, Weekly.
Speaker 1:So you sit down and go, you hit record and you guys are therapizing yourself. If that's a word, Do you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 4:I'd say we really reflect on the sessions that we have and what are the themes that we're seeing from men, from women, in marriage. So we really take a lot of what we talk about from sessions and it's so funny how it works out. I'm sure you have the experience too. We'll go through something, and what's been a miracle for us is that we have this outlet, like we have marriage coaching and putting marriage principles online as a way to alchemize our own challenge, which a lot of people wouldn't have. So we go through a challenge and we know that that is eventually for us not only for us to learn, but that when we learn it, we teach it, and so I can't tell you how many times we have something come up in our own life and that when we legitimately transform it, a wave of couples will come into our sphere dealing with something very similar.
Speaker 2:Now we're already prepared to really help meet them where they're at, and it's that's happened so many times because, to your point, like our belief and this is what we really invite couples into is that any challenge that is showing up is because it's trying to teach you a lesson like that's our philosophy for life any adversity that you face, any challenge, any obstacle, is trying to develop you into being a better version of yourself.
Speaker 2:So the same thing in marriage. So we're about to have our 10 year wedding anniversary and we went through a really traumatic experience with a family member this summer and it kind of just had a ripple effect to us. Like we were both kind of in fight or flight because it was a pretty intense situation. So we were just more reactive towards each other, more sensitive, you know, just conflicts coming up, and so it was an opportunity for us to go okay, where is our reactivity coming from? Why are we being more reactive as opposed to just letting the cycle spiral, spiral, spiral out of control? So we just really look at challenges as something that's trying to teach us.
Speaker 1:So you had to address it pretty quickly then and before it spirals.
Speaker 2:Of course.
Speaker 1:Right. That's one thing I've realized too in marriage, and more lately now, is communication. I don't know if that sounds cliche, but, mike, every time now I feel that there ever was an issue, it's communication. Yep, you've got to be, and as a guy, I think it's hard to open yourself up like that about certain things. In fact, I was on your Instagram and I saw a bunch of stuff and it just reminds me of so many different levels of marriage, me with so many different levels of marriage, like you know, like for like right now, I saw something about, uh, this, not sexual, but like intimacy, yes, like touching, like like I, I just like the other, like it was last night, like my wife she's just rubbing my back and I was like this feels so good and it was like this weird, like I don't know if it's weird, but it was like, yes, does that make sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I just felt so at one with her and I was so grateful that she was rubbing my back. Yeah, you know, and I have this thing now. Uh, when you say you're realizing certain things in your life, in your marriage, we've been going through something, because all we have three boys, all three boys now are in college. Wow, the youngest so we're almost empty nesters, because the oldest came back to finish online and I know that she was going through. That was tough for her, right, and it was tough for me too, and a couple things like bothered me. One is that she never really asked me how I was dealing with it, but I was also dealing with it in my own way, so I was also. I was also okay that she didn't ask me about it, but I was like, why isn't she asking me about it? There was that, and then there's just the when I come home from work, like I kind of want her to say hi to me yeah, does that make sense?
Speaker 1:yeah, you want to be greeted and it hasn't happened in a while. And I was all saying you know what it's? Because she's caught up in this thing right now with our kids. She's got this. But I'm about like I was. I might even bring it up today because I still haven't had that conversation where I'm like hey, I want you to say hi to me when I come home, but I also don't want her to be like 1950s housewife oh honey, you're home, hi. Does that make sense of?
Speaker 2:course, and you know. But here's the thing that's powerful about what you're saying is those little seeds I call them seeds these little things starting to form. If we don't express them, they grow into weeds. They will start to change the way we see our partners see our relationship. So then we start to act different, so then that affects how they're feeling in the relationship, and so suddenly you're like why are we both being weird and why is this?
Speaker 1:because I was weird, I acted weird about it and I don't think. And then I, and then I. Because she didn't say hi to me, I like got pissed yeah so I just turn on the tv and make my lunch and I'm sitting there, and then she'll go oh, you're home. I come home every day at this time, honey. You know what I'm saying? It's funny. If she watches, I better talk to her before this podcast drops.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's great, though, because everyone can relate to that stuff, and that's the thing is. People think that it's just happening to them. So it's all. This marriage stuff is just behind closed doors rather than. We have talked to a lot of successful people and they all deal with the same thing. So it doesn't matter how successful you are, how strong you are, the dynamics of marriage are very universal.
Speaker 1:I find that being as open as I can and as vulnerable as I can has really helped our marriage. I've been married 29 years. That's amazing. That's a long freaking time.
Speaker 2:So I have a question for you. So we talked a little bit about what was modeled for us. What did your dad model for you Like?
Speaker 1:how did he show up in the marriage with your mom? So my mom and dad, they had they. They divorced when I was like 18, um, and they, but they always hung out. We always, we were always together Christmas, we're always together, birthdays. It was weird. It was just like they lived in different places. Um, I think they always loved each other, but my dad was always, uh, respectful to my mom. Um, never my mom. She's mexican. She flew off the handle all the time. She was screaming and yelling, but my dad would always. Why can't we have a conversation and talk like this?
Speaker 1:right, this is how they would fight um. Does that answer your question? Well, like I mean did he express himself? He would. If they got into a huge fight now, when I was a kid and they got into a huge fight, I would get excited because I got to stay up late and watch tv, um, so I'll be like they're fighting.
Speaker 2:Yes, we get to watch tv, um, but he would go close the door in his room and I remember it was like but isn't that interesting about how it wasn't just communicating, it was to express myself as a fight, and that's what a lot of people associate if they witnessed conflict, like for me, same thing my parents divorced and it was. I didn't see communication, I saw fighting, and so that's what a lot of people, if they did witness that, they associate expressing themselves with this is going to start a fight yes, so then they don't want to do it my dad will come out of the bedroom and then fight with my mom.
Speaker 1:They would argue about stuff and I would witness. I can't remember what it was, but I just remember the tension you know, and how ugly.
Speaker 1:It was as a kid, yeah. But I also think, like now, like I communicate with my wife, she communicates like we've been to therapy a lot. You know it's a, it's a lot. It's a lot to be 29 years together. You've got a. It's a lot of work and I have to say honestly, in 29 years I don't think my marriage has ever been happier and healthier than it is right now why do you think that is?
Speaker 1:communication, being open about everything and vulnerable and just sharing like everything, you know everything, like I like. She called me handsome today when I was leaving the house and I know that sounds silly, but I was like, I like that. I remember I came up with therapy one time. I was like you know, I don't know if you think I'm attractive or not. You know what.
Speaker 3:I mean, yeah, so where did your vulnerability come from? Because we, when we went to Jesse's oh yeah, he, we're all sitting there on the lawn. He says, okay, raise your hand. Where are you from? Why are you here? All that stuff? And you're one of the first people that talked.
Speaker 1:That's because they went in certain order. I hate that stuff, yeah, and you described how uncomfortable you were.
Speaker 3:I don't know what I'm getting myself into and I'm like God, this is somebody I want to hang out with. I mean, he was so raw and real. I'm like I know this guy from the business climate and that doesn't match, but yet it does.
Speaker 1:And that was so. That whole thing was so out of character for me. I was lying in bed with my wife this Jesse is a guy who I big fan of, I love. He posted it's a guy who I big fan of, I love. He posted something about a sauna and and cold plunge, which I love, and my wife was sleeping and I.
Speaker 2:I did it you just signed up.
Speaker 1:I did. And then she woke up and I go, I did this thing and she was like what are you doing? I go, I signed up for this thing. I'm trying to unsign up. She was like do it, just do it. I'm like, no, no, just do it. You gotta Just do it, just do it. And I was sick to my stomach for days until this thing happened, and then I loved every second of it. That's awesome, and so that's when I decided to continue to take challenges and do stuff Kind of like this podcast. This kind of stuff freaks me out, but by the way, a couple things I love that.
Speaker 1:I always want to have arms where I'm talking and you can see the veins oh yeah, we met at the gym.
Speaker 2:That's what drew me in.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, but also I'm fascinated by not wanting to know her past. Not that you have some crazy past, but, like my wife, we were dating. I wanted to know everything you know and maybe this is bad, but 29 years years later, I still bring up her first boyfriend.
Speaker 2:I bring him up all the time. Funny, what for just to have fun.
Speaker 1:Okay, like uh, in fact she even said we were, um, like I said we took my son to school. He's a freshman at the university of arizona. She went there, she was in a sorority and I was like, because you know, we went and moved him in. I'm like, so did your dad. Her parents are divorced. I said so how did you guys move into the dorm? She said, oh, my mom moved me in, I go, just your mom. And she's like oh, and somebody else.
Speaker 4:And it was her boyfriend.
Speaker 1:So it doesn't bother me at all. I mean I look at it like I won.
Speaker 4:Yeah, of course You've got 29 years and kids, it reminds me of something else you brought up earlier was about the vision right that a couple needs to have. But I think we've really learned, especially in our own life, let alone all the couples that we've talked to, is, if you're going to be married a long time and there's a lot of science too duration is not your main goal. Duration with high satisfaction is your goal. You don't want to just be married under obligation for 50 years. That's really no way to live. Is your goal. You don't want to just be married under obligation for 50 years, like that's no, really no way to live.
Speaker 4:So, with that being said, marriage goes through an evolution. Like you kind of have to remake your marriage every so many years. That's so good, that's so good, and that's that's how we best describe the vision. A vision is a way to conceptualize the collaborative future that you want to create together, by saying, hey, we know we've done what we've done in the past. We have the amount of money, the kids, the achievements, but okay, here we are now. What do we want to recreate going forward? And I think that's a part of how you keep that spark, the romance, that's how you see each other differently, because if you don't do these things. Then there's this erosion, like I can wake up after 10 years, after 20 years, and then there she is again.
Speaker 1:Oh, the video. You guys posted the roommates, the roommates video that's a great great video roommates versus uh romantic romantic partners. Wow that, that, that that hit hard, because I think, being together as long as I've been together, you go through that For sure and if you don't stop it, it's going to be a problem. We have kids and money and business.
Speaker 3:and how do you navigate a couple that is not on the same motivational wavelength in terms of trying to come to a solution? Maybe it's more so on the husband, or more so on what do you do to bring along both people?
Speaker 2:Anything jumped out at you. I mean, I think we always like to first see what they both value. Right, talk about values and usually they are more aligned than they might think. So the initial thing they're arguing for, like, let's say, it's a I know you're big on finances, right, so it might be a financial decision that they're trying to make. If they get detached from what they're both saying as their argument and come back to what they value, that's usually the same thing.
Speaker 2:There are exceptions where people do have different values, but for the most part, that's part of what made them choose to get married was that they're aligned in those values and then when they get reminded of that, it helps them make the decision. So, for example, a couple that we actually know really personally one partner was just offered a really big promotion and, as they talk about it because it's enticing, it was a lot of money, it's so enticing Everyone's oh, more money. But when they really looked at what they value and their kids are still young, so they really want as much time with their kids they even want to do somewhat of like a hybrid homeschool, a little bit of an outside school, and they want to just raise them very intentionally, they realize that that didn't align, because it would have had them traveling a lot more, working later nights, and so that's what we always have, like the vision, like you were bringing up the vision and values. When they really do get connected to that, the answer becomes a lot more clear.
Speaker 4:And, to simplify it, things typically get worse the more you focus on yourself and the more short term you get. And so then that easily happens when you don't recreate that vision. Because the vision expands your time horizon to the medium, the long term, and it incorporates your partner and your family, and it's been more popularized now. But being self-conscious the more self-conscious you are, the more miserable miserable you'll be like, the more you focus on the self and the more short term. So, like to your to your question, couples just get too focused on themselves versus the partnership and they get too focused short term. What they're doing now, what to get done today?
Speaker 3:what she's not doing.
Speaker 4:I was gonna go there next too right, and if you don't recreate that, you just leave yourself in a place but aaron, it's just really her yeah, yeah, I mean all.
Speaker 4:What else are you going to focus on, right? If you don't have that? It's your really her. Yeah, yeah, I mean. What else are you going to focus on, right, if you don't have that? It's your differences in preferences and perceptions about whatever where the dishes go, organization, how you hang your clothes, when the dishes are put in the dishwasher, who takes them out. It just you get down to such mundane things and you and your partner are always going to have differences in personality, in preferences, and so if you don't have something to counteract hyper-focusing on that, then that's all you think about. Why can't they be like this, why can't they be like that? That annoys me. That's just all the minutia of not recreating every maybe six, seven years. If you're going to do this a long time, what's next, and what is it next for us, and how do we take this out to the medium to long?
Speaker 2:term. Well, we review our vision at least once a year. It's really important because life can change so quickly and so even to your point like you're becoming empty nesters. That's a really important time in a marriage, right? The early years of having young kids like that's a very vulnerable time. There's a lot of evolution when you go from just being the two of you to then having kids, but then also when you're going to have, you know your kids out and no longer in the home. That's a time to also go. What's next for us, babe? What's our vision now? Otherwise, it's very easy to feel kind of like you've grown apart or it's just the mundane.
Speaker 1:You do grow apart, especially when you are like the breadwinner and so you're making the sacrifices to be away from your family, to go to work. Yeah, it makes me think you're the couple that was deciding to take the job, for money Also, you've got to provide, so you've got to work. It takes away a lot, and then you do kind of fall into that roommate situation that was saying earlier. So it's like you're working, you're working, you're working. You come home, dinner, food, take the kids to school, work, work, work back, and then you kind of lose track of the romance between you and your spouse and so you really got to work hard at that, you know, and then, like that's kind of where I feel like we're at right now, with kids being gone, that we've been fortunate enough to be able to still be romantic with each other.
Speaker 2:That's great. How did you prioritize your marriage all those years, even while raising kids Didn't Really?
Speaker 1:That's when we probably had to do the therapy part. Sometimes I'm like I can't believe she stayed with me and that this happened. I'm so blessed and I thank God every day for my marriage Honestly blessed, and I thank God every day for my marriage because I honestly, when I say I thank God every day for marriage, I truly do that. Every single morning at 4 am, I say out loud the things I'm grateful for, and my marriage is one of them. Because it's amazing. Sometimes you look at what's happening. I can't believe we got this far, this happened, this happened. This happened. We drifted apart here, but we came back together. Now we work really, really hard and it's fun too. Now it's fun. I love coming home. I love seeing what she's going to wear to bed Not that she wears anything freaky it's usually a t-shirt but I love seeing what t-shirt she's going to wear.
Speaker 1:I love that. I still get passionate about every inch of her body, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I love that you're authentic about seeing a therapist in the journey and I think for anyone listening, wherever you are in your marriage journey maybe you're engaged maybe a few years in decades is to really reframe that you do have the time. I think people have this focus on career, finances, raising the kids and they forget that their marriage is the foundation of their family, that when you are connected everyone else thrives. Like, think about that. You perform better at work when you're connected. If you're arguing at home or disconnected, you know you're not thinking as clearly, you're not as confident, you're maybe even thinking about that argument and then you're anxious to go home, right. So if you two focus on your connection, even in little ways, every single day, every week, everything else is easier and your kids benefit. Like that's what a lot of our research focuses on now, especially as we get ready for our next book, is how much a strong marriage benefits kids.
Speaker 1:I believe that I'm so happy with how my three boys at this point have turned out. And I think it's because they've seen their dad love their mom, their mom love their dad. We do family trips, we hold hands, we do all kinds of stuff and that's one of the things I'm proud of the most of those three kids and it's mostly all her, because I was at work all day.
Speaker 2:So you both saw your parents get divorced right, you said yours and hers divorced.
Speaker 1:Her parents got a very, very ugly, ugly divorce. My parents turned key and they still hung out all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they even got back together. What's cool is you guys have both now been cycle breakers.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, right.
Speaker 2:Like I don't know if you've ever recognized that about yourselves Like you broke a cycle your kids don't Like. It ended with you.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, they're already, so the youngest is 19. So that means, if you go by with it, right, boom High five, now we can break up.
Speaker 2:No, no, that that would actually just be another cliche. Right Is breakup. When the kids go off to school, right? Cause that's what a lot of people do is say, oh, let's just tough it out, let's wait till they move out. It's like number one. The kids knew all along. Kids are so smart, they know if you're arguing, if you're disconnected. So, yes, it benefited them to a degree, but they were picking up on it and did they get the example of love? Did they get the example of partnership?
Speaker 4:and for the ones that didn't pick it up. Then they feel like it was a sham, like oh, literally, you got divorced a few months after I went to college. So what? You just stayed together of obligation for me, and then they internalized some of that too, right, so there's I mean, there's no win either way. So you guys, you guys were hiding stuff, just uh, until I went off to college. And then it's like this shock, it's like oh, do you guys have workshops?
Speaker 1:it's like big old thing, like I think it'd be fun to go to like a. Is it like?
Speaker 2:we do an in-person workshop, we have one in october.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we've done over 50 in-person events in person, like how many people go to a workshop um, lately we've been maxing it at about 44 couples, so about 88 people on the room 44 couples because we could go bigger.
Speaker 2:We have usually a wait list of people saying can I please get in, but we really like to make sure that we're available to talk to every single couple if they want the interaction wow, it's, it's incredible.
Speaker 3:Been there, been there done wow.
Speaker 1:So the one you have in october, where is it? Can people sign up? Or yeah, it's in chandler, arizona.
Speaker 2:There's a few seats left yeah it's called the couples workshops, if they went to our website where do you do it? Um a marriott in chandler okay yeah, it's really nice because it's right near two freeways, so it's easy to get to is it just you two?
Speaker 1:let me talk to the business side. Do you have people that handle your social media? Do you have people that?
Speaker 2:or we have an assistant, we have a pr team Book agent. Yeah, book agent.
Speaker 3:But hold on a second. That stuff's pretty new.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, just the last couple years that stuff is pretty new, oh yeah. It just used to be us.
Speaker 1:Okay well when you get to your social do you guys say, let's do a video on this, and you set up the camera and you're doing it all yourself, and then are you editing it on your computer, on your phone, on CapCut, like who's doing what?
Speaker 2:Yeah, podcast stuff, we have an editor because those are long and we do video and we don't want to do like long, long video editing, but social media we still film it. We come up with the scripts ourselves, we film it and then edit it, because I honestly, am so fast at it now that if I, it would take me the same amount of time to upload the files and send them.
Speaker 1:So you're editing it on a laptop.
Speaker 2:Just your phone. Yeah, social media videos. It's a little bit easier.
Speaker 4:It's also more than that. For you, it's like it's a place of her expression, that's her creativity.
Speaker 1:I think what you guys post is fantastic and it's so well done, thank you. And so, is there anything that's gone viral? Is that one of the things that Incredibly viral.
Speaker 2:I mean several posts, I would say. A few messages really strike a chord One you actually mentioned around intimacy. We did a scene where I actually reject his attempt to be intimate.
Speaker 1:This was a recent one. What does that do to the guy when he makes it? I'm sorry, was he showing his?
Speaker 4:arms when you did that In the video you see her sleeping and you see my hand come over the top, and so I'm going to sleep and I'm like not tonight, hon Right.
Speaker 2:So the typical, like every couple has experienced that.
Speaker 1:Right. So let's talk about that video, but also in in in therapy. What does that do to the guy when he gets rejected?
Speaker 2:Oh, I mean, rejection hurts right.
Speaker 1:Should you not reject or what do you do?
Speaker 2:What we would say instead right is talk about intimacy. So, rather than just kind of being like attempting and then rejecting, and then you're both silent and you know you're both kind of, you both know it's causing friction and pain is to openly talk about intimacy, to whether you want to pick it on a weekly basis or some period of time where you're checking in and it can be as casual as like hey, babe, how are you feeling about our connection? Talk about emotional intimacy and physical intimacy, making it not feel like this serious, heavy conversation we openly talk about. Are you enjoying our intimacy? Like, let's talk about it. We don't make it feel like a scary topic to discuss.
Speaker 1:But is it ever one person who wants it more than the other person? And then is that like a whoa hey, settle down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that because a lot of people focus on frequency and, in particular, you know, men tend to have what's called spontaneous desire. Right, there's two desire types, so men could be intimate probably as often as as every day, potentially Right, whereas women are responsive desire. And this is so important that couples really learn this, because I think it's really important for men to learn about how women operate. What? Why don't we just like we're not going to sit on the couch and just suddenly be like man, I'm turned on, I'm ready to go?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so tough. That's not how women operate right and so. That's why gay guys have it so great Okay.
Speaker 3:I don't have an opinion on that right.
Speaker 2:But I think just being able if if men, any men are listening to this is to just talk to your wife and really understand, like, what does help you feel, like you desire intimacy and so responsive desire, is when you're really responding to the environment, you're responding to the amount of connection that you feel in the relationship and also we're sensual, right. So we're not going to again just spontaneously feel like it. It's really because we've been flirting. You know, he's's been thinking about things like my love. You can think about the love, languages or even a part of it, but also sensual experiences. So we don't have to go on a whole thing like that. You can watch our reels on intimacy, but it's talk about it.
Speaker 1:But also sometimes then the guys, you know, I feel I talk to my wife about this sometimes, that there's, I feel I talk to my wife about this, sometimes that there's, I know the women want the whole romance thing. But then guys also, sometimes I think we look at it a couple different ways. One it's going to help me go to sleep, right, I know there's the whole love thing, but I got to be in bed and I want to be asleep in 10 minutes.
Speaker 2:Let's do a quickie but then it feels transactional to women.
Speaker 1:Right, but it I think it shouldn't. It's okay, you got to compromise sometimes.
Speaker 4:Well, it's just where the proactive communication you know, comes in. And so she's going to share with me the season that she's in what has her feel desire and connection. We'll both do that and not like it's a negotiation, but it's an understanding that we there's mutual care and mutual desire to meet those needs.
Speaker 3:So without that conversation, without that understanding, understanding, then that's probably what breeds dysfunction and resentment yeah, because you're not connected, because it could it can be like what you're talking about, as long as it's it's communicated in a way that everybody knows where everybody is right where the quickie comes from.
Speaker 4:For the guys, the quickie right and I think the man there was so many comments like so many unbelievable opposite ends comments on these videos, on the one on the intimacy video.
Speaker 1:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker 4:Yeah right, I can't even tell you I'm gonna go look, some are like scary I have to even hide them literally.
Speaker 2:I've had to hide some because I'm like this is so toxic yeah
Speaker 1:oh, you mean like angry or just very unhealthy?
Speaker 2:I'm not gonna, I'm just saying, it's just unhealthy perspectives that I wouldn't even want people to read. You know where it's yeah, I mean, I don't, I only do that for the far extreme right.
Speaker 4:Oh sure yeah and you know, but there's, there's this idea in between that men need something and women need a different way and there's got to be an accommodation. But like, literally what's missing in the whole thing is like, have you even said that to your partner, right? It's kind of like what we said in the beginning. I tried to break up with her and it's like oh well, f you, then I'm out and you just act like you've had this shield up the whole time. That's how most I can see, most of these, these comments about these posts are the same way. It's like oh, if you're not going to meet my need, then like if you, I'll go find someone else, right?
Speaker 4:and it's like but you're not going to look at how you're communicating about this, how vulnerable you've been sharing, how this this season is different for you, and so, even with all that said, it's so you know, I can't go to her and say here's what I need, regardless of how I've treated her for the last week, if I've been rude and diminishing or distant, went from zero to 60 on harsh comments like the whole week, and now I'm like it's time for your duty. It's like what kind of relationship right?
Speaker 1:no, you're right, you're right, you're 100, but I can't see you doing that no, exactly.
Speaker 4:Well, so it just comes down to that. I like how what you said.
Speaker 3:It's time for your duty like you're all that's what some, some comment literally how many people, how many people actually like that's my right?
Speaker 2:oh, that is a perspective that some people hold and they're not our followers, they're not the people that follow us, so that's a post that's gone viral. Uh, also, we have another one that really struck a chord, where it's about don't stay married for the kids and we actually, yeah, we reframe it and say fight fair for the kids, communicate for the kids, break the cycles for the kids.
Speaker 2:So to again just challenge that whole perspective of like let's just tough it out and stay together. It's like no, do the work do the work for them.
Speaker 1:Getting back, I want to get to the your, the methodology of your social media, because it's so huge. Do you do a post a day? Yes, no matter what, is that how it has to work?
Speaker 2:it not has to, I just have. I'm the marketing person so we run the business together, but I I just happen to be the marketing person and is a creative expression for me, like I'm not a good artist, I'm not a good painter or anything like that, and so it is like an outlet for me. I love words, I love communicating through language, and so I choose to do a post every day but do you set a day where you film all your content?
Speaker 2:yeah, we do, yeah, we'll film, chop it up and then you drop.
Speaker 1:That's how it works. I'm just trying to. I just think it's so fascinating I want to know, because it's it's you know, for, like me and my social media, I'm shooting stuff. I just oh, I have this and I post it. I don't I really want to start to think about it and see how especially your stuff's like so well lit, it's so sounds so good, it's really really well done. Thank you that arcadia high school did their job it wasn't them.
Speaker 2:I loved arcadia, but it wasn't them.
Speaker 3:But it's interesting where you were when you started. You weren't like we. We tend to see this the freemans, million followers, polished content like well thought out and we're blown away. Yep, but I think people need to also understand where you started with jerry roberts and that book thing and then just kind of nickel and diamond, your vision, oh yeah, and you stayed committed to it. Um, I, I remember it, you guys were woo, woo-woo. We have 10,000 followers, and it was years.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, so many years, years. Oh, I mean, it just is consistency, and I'm a big person of I observe. I observe what's landing, what's resonating, and then I just keep doing that and keep kind of refining it. So I'm just a big observational person.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of things I see on social media, I think where things are overproduced. And it's like it's not good, like your stuff is perfect.
Speaker 2:It's really really good we're in our pajamas sometimes, you know, because we want it to be real, like this is what has what couples experience behind closed doors at home. They're in their pajamas, or we just make it like real life.
Speaker 1:So you do a post a day, and what about stories? Is that I?
Speaker 2:do one a day. We just don't have the time to, like, do a ton of let me show my whole life but, you just do one a day, yeah? And I mean I think, yeah, I don't know why Just all. I'm a mom and we run a big business now, and so I just Speaking about how?
Speaker 1:about parenting now? So you're a new mom, new parents. How do you deal with that as far as, like, you're with the baby? No, you're with the baby, Like you know. Like, how do you? Oh, she's doing too much, I'm not doing enough. Is that a problem in a relationship as well?
Speaker 2:Well, it's changed because so her first year of life so she's almost four now Her first year of life, we had a nanny at the house, us. So that was really nice because we would just work a little bit and then I'd be with her and we'd be with her, and so it was very much like working and being with her and then eventually, you know, felt like she was ready for an external environment and so we really try to consolidate our work hours. I think the older she gets, the more time we want with her. You know, it's like, oh my gosh, she's growing so fast, and so our goal, even next year, is like let's shorten our work days even more. You know, that's our goal and we even we came up with talking about vision, our new vision.
Speaker 2:So he just turned 40. So 10 years from now he'll be 50. And we said let's get to the point by the time you're 50, where we literally have the choice to work or not, because what's cool? So we had kids a little bit later in life. I was just shy of being a geriatric mother at 35, right, and so, uh, when she's a teenager, like we want to be able to just travel with her, right, have like work a little bit work when we want to. So that's our, our new vision that excites us do you guys do vision boards, you do the we have.
Speaker 2:We used to do that a lot more, like with the pictures and things like that. Now it's more like we just write it out you write down your goals, talk about it yep. Talk about the vision. What's?
Speaker 1:it look like oh, it does.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's important. Otherwise it kind of just feels like you're just doing stuff rather than you're doing things that are on track to some vision. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Psychology has a phrase that says your aim creates the frame.
Speaker 4:So whatever you aim at in life creates the perspective that you see anything so it's what I'm aiming for determines whether I see Walter as an opponent or as a teammate, or if any challenge I face is an obstacle or is this going to be an opportunity.
Speaker 4:So there's like a lot of psychology that literally, how our cognition works, how our perception works, is correlated to what we're aiming for Understanding what we aim for, not just from a conscious perspective, because that's another thing in marriage, right, it's like you can talk to husbands and it's like, well, what do you actually value? Oh, I value family. It's like, okay, tell me about your week. Well, I work 80 hours a week and I'm on my phone, I'm at home. It's like you're not valuing family. It's like you're providing probably, yes, but you might value status and you might value your network a lot more than actual time with your family, right. So our top level idea of what we value is not the real subconscious value, because that drives all of your action and it creates how you perceive any object or any person in your life. Is this moving me towards or away, the thing I actually want?
Speaker 3:And for all of us like.
Speaker 4:Being honest about what we really want and what we value is a hard conversation by itself. Is there a book?
Speaker 1:that you guys both love Gosh so many. We've read so many self-development books.
Speaker 2:One of my favorite is the Big Leap. It's a really great identity book. I love that one. And then a parenting book. I love Good Inside. That's my girl crush, Dr Becky. What would you say is one of your favorites recently?
Speaker 4:I mean personally in this thread, like I love. I do love Jordan Peterson. Some of his, some of his books are dense, though you know, so you got to get, you got to find the right one for what you're trying to get. But I've learned a lot from him and psychology and that's kind of where the your aim creates the frame.
Speaker 1:What about as far as in your field Like, do you guys believe?
Speaker 2:in Gottman's all got John Gottman stuff. Oh yeah, we love the Gottman's. I mean, obviously they're like the godparents in this industry, so we completely respect.
Speaker 2:We refer to their content In parents in this industry, so we completely respect. We refer to their content in our last book. We refer to them, um, and talk about them, so we absolutely love them in the marriage space, what's kind of cool is like we're one of the biggest you know to be, which is kind of surreal, and and people come to our workshops and I this blew me away like I would have never anticipated. They say like I think of you on the level of the gotmans and that's great that's.
Speaker 1:I mean, we don't see ourselves that way at some point, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, potentially.
Speaker 4:But there's a lot of we're friends with a lot of people in this space, um, but we just, I think, people number one.
Speaker 2:They resonate with us because we're a husband and wife team, so they get the male and female perspective of things, as opposed to just one person. And we're just very real. We don't try to be like, oh, we're perfect. You know some accounts that aren't. They're just more like content creators. They'll like do these elaborate? You know rose petals to the bed and these candles lit everywhere and it's like, yeah, that might get likes and views, but it's not what's happening every day. That's not what real life looks like. So people appreciate that we talk about what does staying connected look like when you're busy, when you're in the trenches of parenting, and so I think people appreciate that it's realistic, authentic and that we also challenge people too, especially in our podcast Like we'll definitely challenge people on there there's not a lot of couples.
Speaker 4:I don't even suggest running a business with your partner to everyone. It's not an easy thing to do, and there's just not a lot of people that love marriage coaching as much as we do. I mean, what? What couple can you find wants to dedicate their life to marriage skills and tools and doing that together and being around each other 24 7 and be parents like we, literally like you couldn't be around your partner more than we're around.
Speaker 1:So can you go away and decompress? Can you go on vacation together and let it go? Or are you working on it all the time?
Speaker 2:no, we intentionally, like our anniversary trip, we're doing a bucket list trip. We're going to banff, canada. Have you ever been?
Speaker 1:I have not.
Speaker 2:My father's been many times, it's just like, like oh, it looks amazing, look it up. Right, we're staying at a castle on the base of a mountain, and so we even were talking about it. We're big on talking about expectations ahead of time any trip, family trips and so we said, you know, hey, let's really make sure we're not working. We're not.
Speaker 4:She did set the expectation that, but we are going to get a photographer for one day. We got to shoot some photos.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, sure.
Speaker 4:She said about five times a day we're going to take a photo.
Speaker 3:I didn't say five.
Speaker 4:But that's a part of the proactive communication too, right? We could say and have the unexpressed expectation that we're just going to leave it all and we're going to go. You know, have fun.
Speaker 3:But you're also content creators too, so when you're there, I think it's important to show that side of that as well to you know. Grab some snippets.
Speaker 1:Wait, let me ask you I'm sorry I'm asking all these questions on like how do you deal with relationships? Like, say, she wants to go girls' night out and she wants you to come, or couples' baby showers. And like, are you both in on doing everything together? Or it's like no, you go out with your girlfriends, I'll stay home.
Speaker 2:Oh, we definitely do things apart. I mean, this week is one of my best friend's birthday, so I'm going to do a whole spa day. He meets with guys at least once a month.
Speaker 4:He's got this guys group of friends or or therapy things um no, it's kind of like some of the groups you guys have been in. I have a small men's group of eight guys. I have relationships with all them, some friends, some were kind of in the network, but they all live in gilbert and so we get together once a month so we've.
Speaker 2:So you make it important to have guy night out and girl night out oh yeah, absolutely, and we even just recently talked about, you know, hey, let's each find in the next year a conference or retreat that we each want to go to. That's an individual thing.
Speaker 1:So I mean at time, apart definitely where he would go somewhere by himself and you go, oh wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think those times apart.
Speaker 4:We're in like a very particular book writing phase but, like next year, we're obviously going to be promoting this new book. But it's also as we look for our vision and the season that we've been in.
Speaker 4:We've both been saying it is that season for me to find a men's group to be a member of and go to events, many of which you know, walter, have been passing to me that you might be a part of too. Johnson wants to find a great group of women's collective to be a part of and go to events, and so I think 2026, as much as we'll be promoting this new book, we're going to be through this writing phase and, like, probably take more personal time again, because it's it's it's the season we can't came out of and what we feel this new season is calling us into is for me to get more time with men, do a little bit more on my own and and similar for her how do you guys handle like each other when it comes to birthdays, like does she want big presents and big dinner, or are you low-key?
Speaker 1:how's that work?
Speaker 4:depends on the the birthday I just had, my 40th. Was that a big one? It was. Yeah, it was a surprise I planned a trip california we had some other couples that went with us.
Speaker 2:I went all out saying so. He didn't know the location or what we were doing, and I rented a crazy cool cliffside mansion for us and eight other friends. I hired a chef. We went on a boat.
Speaker 4:Wow, I really I spoiled you, right? You like that stuff For the 40th? Yeah, I loved it, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah. And then I maybe not.
Speaker 4:Maybe not every birthday. Right, yeah, we're not big on everything I like to have some buy-in on some of the things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And what about for you? Like what's are you, is your love language, acts of service? Is it gifts?
Speaker 2:Definitely acts of service makes a big difference. I do love gifts. I would need to retake the test now to see what makes a difference. I think it is. For me, what makes me really feel connected is just little check-ins, little emotional check-ins, but I am looking forward to our 10-year wedding anniversary, which we're also going all out for. We have talked about my 40th, which will be in 2027, making that a big trip.
Speaker 4:So we like to focus on the big milestones.
Speaker 4:There's a good point here, though, too, for the listeners. We're all not just like one fixed human being, right? It's like you go through experiences, you have challenges, you learn, you become a different person. Your partner's doing the same thing, so you're having to remake really who each other are. I think you need to. If you don't recognize that, then you live into this fantasy that you're with the same person. It becomes boring, but you got to recognize that there's growth happening over there for that person. So even with love languages I so I had a traumatic birth experience, and so my physical touch, love language, is literally the lowest it could possibly be, to the point of like I didn't even like to be touched. So I could say that my love language is definitely not physical touch. Or even someone else that says it's middle of the road. Try not touching your partner for a year and see if physical touch doesn't become an important thing for them. I was going to say I think those can change too Totally A hundred percent.
Speaker 1:Like so would you say? You're not the type of person that's going to hold hands in a movie.
Speaker 4:Not in the past, but when I know it's important to my partner and physical affection is important to a relationship. It's like I need to intentionally go beyond what I think.
Speaker 1:Because you know what's important to her.
Speaker 2:So you have to compromise and also, even just if you think about it sometimes, when so talking about coming home and greeting your partner, like, try this the next time you see your wife this evening, rather than just the quick peck or quick hug, hold each other for several seconds and you release oxytocin, right, you? There's something that happens in our bodies when we are really holding someone, so it's just, it's good for brain chemistry, your body. I've said it to my wife before.
Speaker 1:At night, when we're in bed, it's like, hey, this doesn't have to be about sex, I just let's just hold each other for a little bit and it just, and I feel like it's like a iphone battery charger yeah, because your body is literally feeling bonded with someone. When you say you had a traumatic birth experience, are you talking about actually birth like the day you were born? Something happened, oh yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I was born six weeks early. I was only four pounds. I wasn't breathing so they had to put me immediately on respirators and I had a whooping cough.
Speaker 4:I was blue and you think that because of that day that's affected you as an adult I think and I didn't put it together till later in my life but I really never liked being touched. And then a friend of mine was like, well, wait, tell me about your birth again. And she was like that makes so much sense. Oh my gosh, it does make sense. It's like if you were a soul and you came into this world and the very first experience you had was physical pain being jabbed with needles and respirators would probably do something to you. And I was like, wow, I literally never thought about that.
Speaker 1:How about your brother? Did he have a birth similar or did he?
Speaker 4:Oh no, he had a fine birth.
Speaker 1:So he likes being touched, he likes being hugged and stuff like that.
Speaker 4:He's got different things, some anger things that I think he's working through.
Speaker 2:We all have our things.
Speaker 3:You do the couples workshop. What other tools do people have available to access the Freeman magic?
Speaker 2:everything ranging from we have 30-day couples, challenges, which we're at probably 45 000 couples now have done that no kidding yeah we have online guides. We have online web classes. There's a wait list for working with us privately, but that's available. So we try to have like we meet people where they're at at different levels, right, whether they just want something simple.
Speaker 2:So you're doing private coaching yeah, yeah, we scale that down though more and more as we like work on our book and other things like that. Yeah, but that I I don't ever want to go to no private coaching, because that's how we really get such a pulse on what couples are dealing with right and stay really plugged in and keep sharpening our skills. So we really enjoy that still.
Speaker 1:How about dealing with menopause and hormone issues and that stuff? Are you guys up to date in that?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, that's been a part. We just did an intimacy series on our podcast and we did an episode where we talked about that a little bit, and then I'm actually having a guest doctor on our show in the coming weeks where we'll talk about that specifically. And I just had my hormones tested. So I wanted to just really learn, even like before perimenopause officially, you know, begins and go through that stage. So I'm huge on like starting to talk to both men and women, understanding how their hormones changing are impacting them. And again, that's part of the open communication is we are aging, so let's make sure we're learning about it, talking about it.
Speaker 1:That's a tough thing to go through when you're going through that both. Oh, yeah, asking, life with the hormones, because they don't really happen at the same time. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:And then you know the crying yes yeah, we can be hormonal, for sure, oh I was talking about me.
Speaker 3:Oh, you're the one crying. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean we want to talk about all of that right, All the things that people really deal with, including when they become empty nesters, and all the real issues. We don't talk about that a lot, right. We actually don't accept clients where that has happened, um, because they really need to work with a specialist who focuses on that, because it is such like a niche challenge, right, and so that just isn't our main specialty.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we have you uh watched or listened to esther perel?
Speaker 2:oh yeah, I yeah, I love her. She's great right? I'd like to meet her someday, oh same.
Speaker 1:She's amazing yeah.
Speaker 2:She has a lot of really powerful insights and just the human experience. Yeah, there's so many amazing people out there there are. Funny enough, speaking of listening to things, this is a full circle moment, because I listened to you in high school in the car driving. Listen to my music, John Jay, so this is pretty cool. Now, a couple decades later, Well, thank you.
Speaker 4:Yeah, way to be consistent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it speaks to your consistency too, and now here you are, a listener of mine, and now I'm taking all this stuff you guys said and go tell my wife I need to get home.
Speaker 2:Isn't that funny. You can be like she listened to me when she was in high school.
Speaker 1:Somehow I be like she listened to me when she was in high school.
Speaker 2:Somehow I could have influenced what happened, yeah, your career somehow oh definitely, yeah, there's always an influence well, thanks for coming on our podcast it was really cool, really cool to pick your brains on stuff like that.
Speaker 1:You know it's like to think about it because we were talking to them about relationships, but also I was fascinated by the social media part of it. Yeah, I mean, you guys are amazing. Good luck to you guys. Thank you so much, and to you guys Thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. I mean you're consistent. You've been doing this a long time. That's what it's all about, right? It's like not expecting instant success, really being consistent over a long period of time.
Speaker 1:I just signed for five more years with iHeart.
Speaker 2:Did you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's actually because because of him. Isn't that weird?
Speaker 2:What do you mean? Tell us more.
Speaker 1:He invited me to a party that I would have never gone to in a million years and in fact my wife there's no one else my wife's like where are you going? I go, walter invited me to this thing and she's like why'd you say yes? Because I normally would never go to? And I talked to this person that was at the party and they said they'd handle it for me and they put together the best deal I've ever had.
Speaker 2:Oh, amazing, congratulations. He's like that, walter's just such a champion for people. He's like. He's like. I'm trying to look for how I can help everyone.
Speaker 1:And then this guy training to run a hundred mile race. What the hell's wrong with you? And then and then did it. It didn't something happened. My wife said like you got, you didn't make something happen, you got hurt or something or no.
Speaker 3:No, missed the cutoff at the halfway point.
Speaker 1:So you ran 50 miles and they're like hey, sorry.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, you can't continue. You don't make the cutoff, you don't continue. Wow, but you went for it.
Speaker 1:Were you sore after 50 miles? No, you're incredible.
Speaker 2:I know he is. You're incredible yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you for putting this together too, yeah.
Speaker 3:No no.
Speaker 1:This is where these guys are next level. Yeah, Meet the.
Speaker 2:Freemans, and that's also our website URL.
Speaker 1:Oh good.
Speaker 2:And so we can't announce the official title of our book yet, because we're going to do a really fun, cool, special announcement thing. But be on the lookout for that.
Speaker 1:We'll have to come back when we're.
Speaker 2:I'm telling my stories right now. Hey, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but we'll have to come back and talk about that.
Speaker 3:Let's go. This is great.
Speaker 1:Thank you for having us. Okay, so welcome to our podcast. This is a little bit different today, because this podcast is a spinoff of our radio show.
