The Johnjay Van Es Podcast
From the mastermind behind one of the most popular morning shows in the country, Johnjay Van Es brings his signature blend of curiosity, humor, and fearless honesty to the podcast world. If you’ve ever had a question on your mind but were too afraid to ask, don’t worry—Johnjay’s got you covered.
With hilarious, jaw-dropping conversations, amazing guests, and the inside scoop on everything you actually care about, this show is a wild ride through the stories you’ve never heard and the truths nobody else dares to say. Whether it’s celebrities, trendsetters, or just the most interesting people on the planet, nothing is off-limits, and no question is too bold.
Come for the interviews. Stay for the insanity. This is the podcast you’ll be talking about. Don’t miss it!
The Johnjay Van Es Podcast
How Close Are We to Training the Body to Kill Cancer?
What if your immune system already knows how to fight cancer, if only it could see it?
In this episode, immunotherapy pioneers Dr. Matt Halpert, Dr. Dan Rubin, and Dr. Rafael Gonzalez explain how their breakthrough at Immunoscene “removes the blindfold” from your body’s natural defenses using your own immune cells.
They share powerful patient stories, the science behind dendritic cell therapy, and why preserving tumor tissue before conventional treatment could change future options.
If you or someone you love has been touched by cancer, this conversation offers hope, clarity, and a glimpse at the future of personalized treatment.
👉 Hit play to hear how this revolutionary approach is reshaping cancer care.
Okay, so welcome to our podcast. This is a little bit different today because this podcast is a spin-off of our radio show. I talk about Rafael Gonzalez all the time on my podcast, all the time. I talk about him on my radio show. I talk about he's done so much for me personally, my family, my friends, the stem cell stuff, right? So whenever there's any kind of biohacking thing that I come upon, I reach out to him. And a couple of years ago, the whole hydrogen water thing was blown up, right? You guys remember that thing? So I spent 400 bucks on this stupid thing, and I put water in it, hit the button, and all the bubbles come up and I'd wait, and then I would drink it.
SPEAKER_02:You drink that every day. You do the stupid.
SPEAKER_03:You do it. I travel with the echo. Yeah, that's enough. Okay, but my drink broke with it. It broke within a month. So I reached out to them. I reached out to them, never got back to me, I reached out to him again, never got back to me. So then Gary Brucker comes up with these little pills, right? So and I don't hear him talk about the echo anymore. So I go and I start buying the pills that he has. I bought I bought some from him and I bought some from Symbiotica, that other place.
SPEAKER_02:Yep.
SPEAKER_03:So now it's simple. You just put hide these pills in the hydrogen water and then it's way more expensive. And it takes forever. Like, you know, when you put the pills in, I gotta wait. When I was doing the light, I had a timed out, right? I think it was three minutes. Yeah, I had my routine. So I'm done with the pills. Then I find this, okay? This in a can? In a can from Australia, and you cannot get it in the United States. You can't even buy this if you wanted to. It's like a good cigar, right? It's like you cannot get this. It's not available here. But I was able to meet somebody and they sent us a couple cases of it, and it tastes just like water. And I want to know, is it possible to have hydrogen water? Because don't you think if this was in all the stores, the way the way people are doing the biohacking thing?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, you're I think you would I think you would lose you got to drink hydrogen water relatively quickly. Right, they should lose. So they've got a few. Correct. And then right there, right when you opened it, it sounded like there's no pressure there. So I don't know how it retained. Try and open it. You know, for instance, if you yeah, you know, when you when you've used the echo, I've had both, I've had I have two different echoes, and both of them have been great for like a year and something.
SPEAKER_03:I broke a month into it.
SPEAKER_02:No, you gotta we gotta contact Paul. Did you get it on the Paul's the owner? No, I know the owner. You know the owner? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I gotta we gotta contact the owner. I'll tell him.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, because I was bumped, man. So that so would you it tastes just like water? Yeah, it is water. It's water. Open it.
SPEAKER_02:I want to know what you think when you say that it doesn't make an old. The thing about this is that the weird thing about it is that it's gotta be pressured. So remember when you when you when you before you can open up the cap on the hydrogen, you pop that button and the gas is because gas builds. But this is sort of unusual. Like I know somebody has a has a a little bag system that they do too, and I'm like, it doesn't make sense at this stuff. It doesn't make sense. Yeah, it did spill a little bit, but it doesn't make sense. How does this how is it keeping the hydrogen for that?
SPEAKER_00:We just run a quick ORAC on this and see if it's real. Just test it. What's that mean? Do you have an ORAC? No, I mean you could send it, it's like oxygen radical absorption capacity, which is one of the things that hydrogen waters boast is its ability to quench free radicals in the body. And so we could we could we could talk about it after this.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think it's really refreshing. It's funny because I have like four cans left in my fridge at home. Well, thank you for this. Yeah, because I wanted to get you guys are freaking scientists and doctors. I figure you guys would know the legitness, right? So I'll get you one and you can send it to Orac or whatever.
SPEAKER_02:The thing about this hydrogen waters, I mean, I I do it and I sort of, to be honest with you, I don't really know at this juncture why I've been doing it, because if you talk to somebody that, like for instance, the Echo Guys, they talk about, I mean, there's there is thousands of studies and thousands of studies range from this is great for autoimmune disease, this is great for cancer, this is an anti-cancer, this is great for oxidative stress, it's great for skin. It's great for everything. And at some juncture, these guys even talk about this stuff can cure, but I I can tell you right now, this has not cured anything.
SPEAKER_03:Hydrogen water or this particular water.
SPEAKER_02:Right. It's not a cure. I'm saying, huh?
SPEAKER_00:I'm right now, this feels like hydrogen water, like the way the buzz inside that I have.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's what my friend says. Okay, my friend Tyler over there, he says that all the time. I feel it. Yeah, that's good. That's interesting. I'm glad you said it.
SPEAKER_02:Because you're really feeling in your body. Yeah, totally. Well, you know what? There there is something because when I first drink mine, the echo, when I pop it, because I always pop it and drink it right away. I can feel the gas fizz.
SPEAKER_03:I'm not trying to sell anything because you can't get it. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not like it's like, but I want to know if it's legit, then I'm going to pull as many strings as I can to get it to the United States. Yep. You know, like get it as feels like it, man.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Well, good.
SPEAKER_02:Tastes like good water. It's great.
SPEAKER_03:I drink one every morning.
SPEAKER_02:I've been doing it about seven.
SPEAKER_00:So am I kind of prefer that over like a big thing. But then again, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know if you've seen Penn and Teller's bullshit. I've I know about it, but I've never seen it. So there's an episode that they sit there in a New York restaurant and discuss all these amazing waters, and they have all these different water bottles, and then the guys in the back just refilling it with New York Tap water. And they're going through all the different all the different people that are sitting there in the restaurant, and you'll have people be like, This tastes really mountain y. Oh, I can I can taste it different. No one's like, oh, this one tastes like it's from a stream. There's Jim there because you're doing it back filling it. Send me there exactly.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so you said something about there's never been a cure, but I want to get into that word because are you not allowed to say that anymore? Because I've heard there's this word, there's a phrase you guys used last night. I saw you guys at a clinic last night, and there was a word you guys used, and I can't a phrase no evidence of disease. No evidence of disease. Is that instead of remission? Is that instead of a cure? Is that what's politically correct now? Correct, yes. Why? Someone gets sued?
SPEAKER_02:Not not because of that, because when you say you cure something is something that will not come back. You've cured it, it won't come back. There's a difference between, remember, there's no detectable disease, no evidence that it's actually there. Um, that's the correct term, you know, or you can say, I mean, you I guess you could say remission.
SPEAKER_01:Remission's remission's fair. Where I where I get a problem with it, and I'm, you know, I'm an immunologist, right? And I've spent years working on cancer and the immune system. And so I actually think we we misuse the word, not on purpose, but complete remission. What does that mean? To my mom, what that means is my cancer's gone. If you say you're in complete remission, it's gone. But that's not necessarily true. The ability to go and have a scan, a CT scan, an MRI, a pet, whatever, an x-ray, they all have limits of detection. You need however many billion of cancer cells in a ball, in a math, to see it. If it's below that level, you're not going to see it.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And the doctor might tell you, you're in complete remission. You may still have tons of cancer in your body, though. Then later you fast forward, the cancer does what it does, it regrows, and you quote unquote relapse. I would argue that, you know, from a micro perspective, you were never actually in complete remission.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, I get it.
SPEAKER_01:And so to of to manage expectations and not mislead patients, yeah. I think if you say cure or complete, you're potentially setting yourself up for a pretty large disappointment down there. But if you say, what's the phrase? No evidence of disease. No evidence of disease. No evidence of disease. There's no evidence.
SPEAKER_00:Because there's radiological, no evidence of disease. Now there's tests, and I think this is why some of the term is new, is because we can look at what's called molecular um residual disease, which is you can't see it on a scan, but you can see it in the blood because the ability to detect cancer-specific DNA is so good right now. And so to have, would you agree that to have true no evidence of disease would have to be clinical, radiological, and lab-based?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, with the caveat that because that those MRD tests are still so new, we're still learning exactly what to make of them. They are new, they're they do have more sensitivity. It's big stuff.
SPEAKER_03:I'm watching your guys in the clinic last night. You know, I was watching uh I saw all three of you speak. Um, one of the first things you brought up was uh the glioblastoma, the GBMs, and that really hit, especially when you said everybody here has been affected by cancer. My mom died of GBM uh of uh of stage four, and it was 18 months. And you and I think it was 2011 when she died, and when you were talking about what you've been doing with GBMs, blew my mind because the last thing I remember, she got into a clinical and they were experimenting with a vastin. Sure, right? Which I think now it's still in you, it's still in use. It's still for GBM, yeah. Oh, it is, yeah. So what and and you were talking about how there's some people now you got to live three years. Yeah, because she did 18 months, but the last four months was terrible.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, it was terrible. Well, and it and there are different categories of GBM, and there's and I was trying to illustrate that actually at that talk, is is there's one category that is a little bit treatable with standard of care, and then there's another type that it just isn't. And uh a doctor might even tell you there's really no point in in you even putting yourself through the normal chemo and radiation because it's not really gonna make a difference. That's actually the population of patients we have mostly enrolled in our first trial, uh, because we were trying to make it as hard as possible. Right. But you're seeing success. Yes. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03:So if I if I was trying to understand everything you were saying in the clinic, if I and I was saying this to these other guys earlier today, in the simple terms, if you have a tumor of cancer, you guys go in there and pull stuff out and create a vaccine from that tumor. Correct. And then put it back into the person and it gets rid of the trains, it trains your system.
SPEAKER_02:Trains your system to go target it and kill it.
SPEAKER_01:When we take it out and we go to the lab and we use the patient's own dendritic cells, which are the you know generals of the immune system army, the way we load it, which is our way, our patented way, our everything we're promoting, is it you actually have to you can't just load it any old way, you have to do it this way. And when you introduce the dendritic cells to the cancer in this way, it effectively reprograms. It's just it it's like taking it, really is like taking the blindfold off. It sees it for the first time as a threat. And it says, I I understand now. Like I've been we've been ignoring it. We thought that was normal. And so when we put that back in the person, in the patient, the immune system goes to work just like it should have. And if we could do that, if we somehow could do that on day one of the cancer, it of course the success rate would be astronomically, right? Obviously, at a point downstream now, the odds are tougher because the cancers had a chance to have all this head start and create a uh a stronghold. But uh yes, when we get your immune system actually seeing and fighting the cancer, of course we have a better shot of actually eliminating it and immunologically reaching complete remission.
SPEAKER_03:And this is at Immunoscene in Cancun.
SPEAKER_01:This is with a couple of we have a we have our US um venture, which is technically a separate company, a separate entity, focused on all the clinical trials, getting the regulatory approvals. We want this available in the United States. The glioblastoma trial is being sponsored and run by that group using the exact same technology we have ported over to Immunoscene where we can use this for not just GBM but other cancers as well.
SPEAKER_03:So who goes like if someone's watched this now and they have a family member that has cancer, can they just call it Immunocene? And you and there they might direct them back here? Correct. Or but then you contact us. Because I've been telling everybody Immunosine. I've been talking about you guys since I saw you in Cabo. Yep, I was like, everybody I talked to in Cabo, because when we again, you know, if you're if you're just punching in, I talk about this guy all the time, and you guys opened ReHealth in Cabo. I was there in January. You were one of the speakers there. And from the people I spoke to at the convention, they were, and you were there too. They were just like that guy. You like blew people up. A lot of statistics, a lot of graphics for someone like me that has ADHD. I was like, what?
SPEAKER_01:But it was like, it was, it was like I know Dr. Gonzalez here has told me to tone that down. But we have to tell him to tone it down.
SPEAKER_03:I I am a scientist, I tell you all the time.
SPEAKER_02:And I'm telling him to tone it down.
SPEAKER_03:You guys, your level of intelligence, like I might not be the right guy to do this, so I'm trying to bring it down.
SPEAKER_01:To answer your question, yeah, if you contact us at Imunacene.com and you are are telling us you have cancer X, and that is one of the cancers that we currently have a clinical trial for, we will redirect you to the trial first. Right. Because of course the trials are are free for the patient and important for the progression. If you don't, but you otherwise would qualify for this treatment, and you just don't have a cancer we're currently narrowly treating in a trial. Yeah, that's when we start looking at you coming to immunocene.com to get the the same thing.
SPEAKER_03:And the service that you guys have there. I saw you know a woman spoke yesterday that she was there uh and she's talked about everything from beginning till end. How you know what's funny is I was to a friend of mine, a woman I know, uh, her husband has got esophagal cancer, whatever, and I connected her with you guys. And uh she texted me yesterday while I was at your clinic, and she goes, Dr. Rubin, call text me sometimes just to see how I'm doing. Yeah. Like, you're that's so nice, man. That's such a hospitality is like a lost you gotta do that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. There's gotta be warmth, there's gotta be compassion. Yeah. Matt does the same thing, even if you don't treat somebody. I do the same thing with people with stem cells, NK cells, whatever. How are you doing? Do NK cells and stem cells work with all this together? Is this a separate thing or do they it's a separate thing. NK cells can, which we've talked about, which we've figured out. But the problem is our NK cell process is a six-week process, and a lot of these, you know, individuals that have cancer, they're in a rush. And this is also a process that takes time too. So it makes it a little bit harder until we come off with the off-the-shelf NK cell. Then we would probably talk about let's preemptively do something like this and then also treat them simultaneously with the dendritic cell. So, but NK cells are good to do preemptively before you know you have anything. Well, 100%. Strengthen your immune system. And how long do NK cells last in you once? Inside of you, they normally circulate for about 28 days once you've infused them in. It's called an adaptive cell transfer because you're adaptively taking cells from one location and putting them in, and then you're putting them inside. You normally walk around with about two billion of them, just depends on the individual. Uh, you're adding in another couple billion, they do what they need to do, remove the bad stuff, and then they'll last, technically speaking, according to the literature, scientific literature, about 28 days is what they're doing.
SPEAKER_03:But the work they're doing lasts for years.
SPEAKER_02:The work they're doing will will last. What we've seen so far in the context of senescence removing those zombie cells is about six months. So then is it something you have to do every six months? Something that you should probably consider doing six months every year. You know, for instance, even the DC, the dendritic cell. Um there's no guarantees, it just depends on the patient, like how long it'll last. People are going back for boosters and doing well, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_02:Yep. They go back and get a booster vaccine with a dendritic cell vaccine and they're doing well. Um it's something that it just depends on the individual. You know, these things mutate, cancer mutates, cells mutate, um, and everybody's different. I mean, you don't know if you're if you're a person that's you don't even know, but you're living outside of a damn cell phone tower or whatever, or you know, this kind of stuff. And it happens, and you're not even realizing that you're going out on a daily basis and getting mutations and you already have cancer and it just makes everything worse.
SPEAKER_03:So how is there anything we can do every day? It's like we like are you guys at all paranoid with your cell phones? Are you are you saying don't do that? Because when I think of my mom and the GBM, I know you can't say how you got it, but my mom drank Diet Coke every day, she did sweet and low every day, she was on her phone all the time. Like we always, you know, when you you lose someone to that, you figure out how'd that happen?
SPEAKER_01:How'd they get it? I mean, and it's you know, you try not to be paranoid. When you work with cancer, right it's really easy to be paranoid, right? That everything is cancer, every stomach ache is cancer, right? So I have to be careful about that. Um, it's usually not cancer. Um, I will say, you know, something I've noticed just a is you know, there's been a rise in colorectal cancer for younger black people. I mean, that you you know, it's uh people who are what at this point between the ages of 30 and 50 have just seen a pretty dramatic rise, specifically in colorectal cancer. And of course, as a scientist, we have to think what has changed. What is unique about 30 to you know 30 years ago that all of a sudden this particular cancer is on the rise? And I think for me, you can pretty easily point to the way food has been processed, the way we've added artificial sweeteners, that's when the diet sodas became really big, fast food became really big. Um there's a lot of processed food. I mean, walk down the grocery store. I mean, so I I definitely, and there's really no question that gut health and the microbiota is relevant to your health and to the incidence rate of cancer. So I think um, you know, a lot of us started eating and drinking, you know, like crab, you know, back in the 80s and 90s.
SPEAKER_03:Well, when you said col, I don't know, you guys are doctors, I'm not, but I thought colorectal has something to do with anus. Correct. Does it? So I figured this is a whole tract. Well, I figured it's from sitting on the toilet. You're about you're gonna say sitting on the toilet being on your phone for an hour. That's right. I thought you were going with it. That's right.
SPEAKER_02:I can't tell you that doesn't listen to it, but I think your question is probably fantastically directed towards Dr. Dan Rubin. What do you got? Because he's been he's been doing this for 30 years. He's an integrative oncologist, been doing it for 30 years. He's seen the evolution of all the changes of, you know, I I personally, I mean, now that I've gone into with immunocene and do cell therapies, there's a lot of people coming up with unusual stuff that I didn't hear about 10 years ago.
SPEAKER_00:Well, thanks for directing the question towards me because there is a lot in that that younger generation, that younger population, I think we have to point towards anxiety. There's an anxiety generation that's following our generation. I'm mid-50s right now, and um we've seen that, and there's a lot of different stress. There has been, I think they were victims of the ultra-processed food revolution too. And to get to Dr. Matt, what you were saying about the microbiome, it's funny that we as a human species or scientists are so presumptuous that we can say, like, oh yeah, now it does actually matter when it's like, yeah, like this is what is part of our body, and we know that there are what hundreds of species that are no longer available in the human metropolitan diet that are actually you know supposed to be part of our human microbiome that has been handed down and handed down, you know, as we go through the birth canal. A lot of us don't for whatever reason. You know, some of us are delivered via surgery or via cesarean section. That plays a role when you're talking about you know coming through the birth canal, things enter the baby's mouth, which then are supposed to colonize the human gut. That doesn't happen anymore. Um, there are certain viruses that have colonized.
SPEAKER_02:Well, you say that on you just scared me right now because I'm a C-section baby. Yeah, but there's a fix. We gotta fix it. There's nice knowing you.
SPEAKER_00:We've got to fix where right. There are species that we can put in. It's all the weird ones that you that aren't, you know, it's not like the lactobacilli and the bifidobacterium or the acid.
SPEAKER_02:I ate a lot of dirt when I was a baby.
SPEAKER_00:A lot of what?
SPEAKER_02:A lot of dirt when I was a baby. Yeah, good. You're digging out.
SPEAKER_00:Children play with dirt. But yes, I I I do think that EMF does affect much of the.
SPEAKER_03:That's the phones.
SPEAKER_00:That's the EMF is the electromagnetic fields. It is a thing. And as we're not able to interpret the square waves that come off of the cell phone towers or our Wi-Fi devices, or just the fact that we have been really unprotected during the this birth phase of these devices. And those that are in you know, in their 30s or especially their you know, mid or early 30s, are the ones that I think really are affected by some of the things that were sort of modernized, and now we're starting to be like, okay, wait, hang on a second. Like, even my kids, my oldest uh Lola is 21. And her her her and her friends, how they view food now, um it's like a revolution. I'm like, oh my god, this is great.
SPEAKER_03:You mean as far as trying to eat healthy?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, like they're in college preparing meals.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, my sons did that too.
SPEAKER_00:Same with my son, like that's great.
SPEAKER_02:But that's a select, that's a select amount of people. I don't see that everywhere. I mean, I I know a lot of people up there. It's happening. There it's trying to happen, but you still have a ton of people hitting McDonald's, hitting it. Oh, sure, hitting that. I mean, more more than likely, 90% and more or plus are still hitting all that bad stuff. But the the other unusual thing, and is, and I all of us here are old enough to, man, when I grew up, we like walked around barefooted outside, had dirt, barely washed your hands, drank out of the holes, drank out of the holes, drank out of your water bottle, out of your water bottle, shared a gallon of milk. Like, uh is it? I mean, something to do with does the immune system get trained because we're so you know, anti-getting dirty, washing our hands a million times a day. It's like when was the last time you walked around barefoot and continued? Yeah, like we're not pasteurized back then.
SPEAKER_01:Well, no, and and to add to that, you mentioned anxiety. And you know, when you're really anxious, right, you make a lot of cortisol, and what actually has to clean up all that excess cortisol? Your immune system. So if your immune system is busy cleaning up your your anxiety, yeah. Well, is that why we're saying we hold it in our gut.
SPEAKER_03:But that's why Gary Brecke always talks about if you have anxiety, there's something in your gut. There's something in your gut, yeah, there's something in your gut. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00:So that's why I brought up anxiety was because it it does change the physiology of your gut. And we hold it there in any, I mean, look, if you were to just make a muscle on your bicep for fift 40 days, you know, your bicep's gonna really hurt. It's gonna change the physiology there. So imagine like going through anxious times and what these kids were having to deal with. So that's why I brought up the part about anxiety, not to mention the whole cortisol and how it changes your neurophysiology, et cetera, but just anatomically speaking.
SPEAKER_03:If there was one thing that you could do every day, what what would that one thing be to help you live a healthier life? Because I read an interview with somebody that said it, and I was like, okay, what is it? It's sleep. Oh, sleep. Okay, okay. That's good. I saw this interview. I'm not gonna tell you who said it until after I tell you this, but they said the one thing they would do is have olive oil. That extra virgin olive oil tablespoon every single day is what they would do.
SPEAKER_00:I do that.
SPEAKER_03:You do that? So I started doing it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I have I just gulp it.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, I've done that before, Nanny. I think I took too much. Okay. What which olive oil? Yeah. It's called snake oil. Do you know who it is? You know who it is? It's isn't that Brian Johnson? The Brian Johnson guy, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I saw it, but his is hopefully you're not gonna look like a vampire.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:It's olive oil with a little, a little pepper. It's got a little spice to it. So I've been I it looks like a bottle wine, and I've had it for a long time. It's taken forever to get through it, but I do a tablespoon every day. Awesome.
SPEAKER_00:And I noticed, you know, like I feel better when I wake up. It's the last thing I do, like a little maybe about an hour before bed. If I don't do it that night, I don't wake up feeling as good.
SPEAKER_03:What do you what brand do you use?
SPEAKER_00:I use Lacco Nico Zoy. Where do you get that? High polyphenol. I get it from LacoNico.com. I'll give you a bottle. But the snake oil sounds amazing. I want to try it too. I'll get you a bottle of snake oil. Give me a bottle each. Yeah, okay. Well, it's that's the thing to do. I want to be part of the game. That's what this guy has. And and it's the natural, like there's olive resin resins in it. There's high, but it's high polyphenols. And that's why I bought it, is because those are fat-soluble. Like those polyphenols are in fatty mediums. So they just enter your cell and say, we're not fucking, well, we're not messing around with you. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And so you're never you're never sore? Like it just protects you? You feel great all the time?
SPEAKER_00:I feel I just the brain works better. I sleep better. And yes, I am not sore when I wake up and work out.
SPEAKER_03:A tablespoon, but when you say you chuck you chug it out of the bottle, I just chuck it out of the bottom. Like, so how many gulps?
SPEAKER_00:Like um, I just put it back and I'm doing about half a shot glass. Okay. So half an ounce.
SPEAKER_03:So I notice not to get gross here, but like when I go to the bathroom, it just slides out. It's a it's like a no wipe, it's like a bonus. It's a ghost one. Uh huh. It's a ghost one. Yeah, it's a ghost wipe. Yeah. It's the those are like the best. Like that every time that happens, it's like, this is a great day. You know what I mean? It's like you can literally, and I and I felt it's changed since I started doing that. I also had someone said something about the apple cider vinegar. Do you guys do that? Do you do that?
SPEAKER_00:I don't do it.
SPEAKER_02:I I do it when I do it when I notice my gut is off.
SPEAKER_03:And it puts it back on. Okay, because someone's gonna give me a tablespoon of that. But the problem is sometimes I forget and I take both of them at the same time, and I think I'm gonna screw something up.
SPEAKER_00:So we're talking about anti-inflammatory, which when you boil it down, I think one of the things that from a colorectal perspective, we know that it's blocked based on inflammation.
SPEAKER_03:And we're talking about gut health too. But isn't inflammation the cause of all issues? Like that's where you get cancer from or not? It's a good one.
SPEAKER_00:It's definitely it's an underlying cause. I mean, absolutely. I mean, is it big anti-inflammatory? So is just being with people too. You know, now we so often we're not with people that much. You know, we're remote or we're zooming. So I think that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_03:Isn't that true?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Isn't that amazing how important that is? Like do you see that the people in Japan, there's over a hundred thousand people, they said it today, a hundred thousand people in Japan are over a hundred years old. It's the high and it's gone up every year for 50 years. Sense of community, sense of purpose, eating right walking uphill, walking uphill, yeah, eating the right stuff.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah, we sit way too much. We do, don't we? That actually causes that also leads to the stuff. These are all little biohacks, right?
SPEAKER_03:Sitting?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Excessive sitting also causes inflammation.
SPEAKER_03:What what is that? Is there a I now not counting the lady that spoke last night, because I know we can't talk about her, but her story was amazing. Are there any success stories that stick with you that you think about that are just an incredible success story?
SPEAKER_01:Oh my gosh, there's a variety of them most of them. I mean, to be honest, the patient population we get that mostly are, you know, stage four cancer. I've tried a bunch of therapies, they've all failed. It's usually bad. The fact that we have any patients reaching NED, let alone as many as we have, is actually pretty encouraging. So one of the stories I like to share is literally patient one, because we we this is before this is technically before we launched immunoscene in Cancun. There's a gentleman who had Oh what year is this? 2017. Okay. And um, he came to us while we were still just researchers in a lab and he he had seen the science and he said, I want this. You know, I have castration resistant metastatic prostate cancer, I have 40 tumors. He could not walk. Oh my god, he was in hospice. It was it was the end of the road, you know, he could it was not good. And um the only way we could possibly even give this to him was with uh now a previous partner we had over in India. Long story, but we that's where we could in theory offer this at that time. This is 2017. And um we said don't do it. We said we're sorry. Like it's very late in the game. Like we just don't think this is ethical to tell you to spend money and give up some of your remaining precious time to leave your kids and go to the other side of the world. Like we we tried to talk them out of it, um because you know, we're we're just thinking like scientists, like this probably isn't gonna work for him. And he completely ignores us, flies over there, calls us up, says, I'm here, like you should just treat me now. Like we're like, this guy's crazy. But he got there, so we said, Yeah, go for it.
SPEAKER_03:Doing doing your protocol, your patent and stuff. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01:And he's still here today. Wow. And it's 2025 now. And he, you know, his kids went from, you know, they were 12 and 9, and now they're obviously, you know, we're in college. And um like we were immediately, we the scientists immediately underestimated what this could do. It doesn't work that way for everyone, but it does work that way for some. And for that to see that from the lab to that's just what happened in a person who had no other shot, yeah, that sticks with me.
SPEAKER_03:Because uh Is he still to this day? You said he's still alive, is he still doing treatments or is he like no?
SPEAKER_01:No, like you do it, you get it done, and you're like Yeah, he he did it back in 2017, three rounds of those double-loaded dendritic cells, and he's wait.
SPEAKER_03:So he get you took the tumor, took the stuff out, made a vaccine, gave him three shots, right, and that's it. Right. That's freaking nuts. How is this not like the lead story in 60 minutes? He's still alive. That's what you know what I'm saying? Totally.
SPEAKER_01:At an alpaca farm, he still travels the world. He'll I talk to him every now and again, really, just to kind of check in.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, that's one patient. So how many patients have you had since 2017?
SPEAKER_01:Uh for um not counting like the the clinical trials, which is maybe a different track. We're at about 175 now, 180 in Cancun. Most of those in the past. Um, we really only truly open this up middle of 2023. Right. Uh before that, it was just kind of a word of mouth.
SPEAKER_03:Let's just So 180 patients, and how many of those would you say are success stories?
SPEAKER_01:You gotta qualify. It'll depend how you mean success. How do you define success? So I I'll try and give some broad stats because it's tricky, right? And I want to be careful we don't mislead. So about 90% of patients will see their immune system become activated and targeted and properly fixed. That is not, please don't, that's I did not say 90% are cured. That That would be nuts. But most patients, this will work in a way where we could say, look, we we said we could fix your immune system. We said we could put Michael Jordan in the game.
SPEAKER_03:And here's what when you said that yesterday, that gave me goosebumps. Could you say that again the way you just said it? The way you said it yesterday?
SPEAKER_01:Right. What I like to try and and I know I kind of date myself, but pretty much everyone's heard of Michael Jordan.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, but there's a big fight with him and LeBron, who's the goat. So it's he's topical. People know who it is.
SPEAKER_01:It's it's look, you're in you're basically in a fight, the fight of your life. This is the championship game. And you do have Michael Jordan on your team. You do. But he's sitting on the bench. Why? That makes no sense to me. As an immunologist, that makes no sense, right? If if that's your best weapon, why is he sitting on the bench? So our goal is to put him in. It sometimes, yeah, he wins all by himself. He just does. And we've had patients that we absolutely we had a um, we had a stage four bladder cancer patient who failed every other treatment. He was on oxygen, uh, like because it had spread around his lungs. He was in really bad shape. And uh, we initially did decline him. We we again ethically thought, and by we, I don't mean me, I mean the medical team thought probably not great for him to come down to Cancun. We're not even sure he's gonna really survive the trip. Like he's not well. Um, we work with him, we end up getting him down to Cancun, he does come. This doesn't happen for every patient, but two weeks after treatment, he goes on his own for a scan. No one told him to do that, that's awfully quick, but he did. And the scan showed no cancer. He then got a different scan, which also showed no cancer. He then went for a biopsy, which showed no cancer. He was feeling so great at that point, he took a trip to Europe, uh, came back, met with the oncologist, did some other tests. No can't the cancer's just gone. And now we're a year and a half past this point. Um, he's still doing great. Again, I talk to him every now and again. And it's just, well, again, this is a guy we thought probably wouldn't even respond. And did he do any other treatments? Nope. He did this, and the cancer pretty much was like it was defeated. I wish that was every case. It's not, but the fact that that is possible with nothing more than getting your own immune system fixed, we know we're not wrong. We know we've got something here scientifically critical. We just don't have all the the answers yet. And so that's that's another example.
SPEAKER_02:So how about the gentleman that Gary sent down with lung cancer?
SPEAKER_01:Uh no, the no melanoma.
SPEAKER_02:Well, no, he's so you have melanoma that went to lung, he had lung methods. Oh, yeah, yeah. So there's another mess. He and he went somewhere else.
SPEAKER_01:He went somewhere else.
SPEAKER_02:Somewhere else, and he had he got worse, way worse. And they lied to him about it. And they lied to him about the whole thing.
SPEAKER_01:It's just a very fraudulent situation, which baffles me how this is okay. But they kept telling him his cancer was getting smaller and smaller and smaller, but they wouldn't show him anything. They were being very cagey. He eventually, and he, if you knew this guy, this is not surprising me at all. He's a he's an interesting character, but he found a way to get his scans and took them somewhere else. And there, the these independent people were like, No, it's what do you mean? It's well you can see it, you can clearly see it. And um, so he came to us in a wheelchair, and I this is again early days, this is 2022, so this is basically we had barely started. And he is just very bad. Um and we gave him this treatment, and within five months, his cancer was gone.
SPEAKER_02:Out of the wheelchair? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. This guy's he's like a rock star partying. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. He goes to conferences with us. I want a party. Like that's incredible.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Do they like does he tell his story or oh yeah. That's yeah, I know these people are very is it he's one of Gary's friends, Gary Brecka? Yeah. Wow, man. That's incredible. So it sounds like I just hear lots of success stories. I know there aren't there are some that aren't, and I think, but it sounds like the majority.
SPEAKER_01:I would tell you from the best we can tell, uh, about three-fourths of the patients we treat will see at least partial remission or a mixed response, something beneficial.
SPEAKER_03:Right. No, that's great. But when you go to Immunoscene, you it's a six weeks commitment. You've got to stay there six weeks. You don't, no. You don't.
SPEAKER_01:No, you don't. Uh let me phrase it a different way. So you need to be there for a week because we need that week. We need that week to get a tumor sample, a tumor biopsy. We need that week to get your white blood cell count up and to get a big white blood cell draw. We need those. We need your cells, we need your cancer in your cells to make your vaccine. And uh, we'll do some other things during that first week, a lot of baseline measures and reads. In the second week, right, we're making, we're doing all the heavy lifting in the lab. Um, you know, that's that's on us. The patient does not have to stay in Cancun for week two.
SPEAKER_03:We're or they can go to the beach. They fly back, they could do it all there. You can you do it, you can't do it in the United States.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no, no. So then we'll, if there's no pause, we'll give you the first round of dendritic cells at the end of week two. And then there's like a 10 to 14 day ramp up just following immune kinetics. It's just biology, it's how it works. Your immune system is gonna ramp up, whether you're in Cancun or you're in Arizona or you're back at work, it's happening in your body. You do not need to just you can, but you do not need to just stay in Cancun for that to happen. And so a lot of our patients, well, absolutely, they'll go home and they'll come back in 12 days. Well, there's a schedule. And then we do the same thing to boost it, to get that immune response to reach a plateau, a maximum. And then you got about another two weeks. Go home. You again, you don't have to stay. We'll we'll drive you to the airport as many times as you want to go back to. Do you live in Cancun? I do not. I live in Texas. So where? Uh down at Houston. Oh, I used to live there. Yep. So we're this all originates out of the Texas Med Center.
SPEAKER_03:So are you always looking for funding? Is that where is that? Are there angel investors?
SPEAKER_01:This is just literally No, Munisine was bootstrapped. So I I mean, some family money, one close friend to put in money. We got the equipment we needed to get to be able to do this. We worked out a system uh that we could survive in the early days. Um, and no, other than that, um, as well, and and eventually um, you know, we we formed a partnership with Dr. Gonzalez's group, not not for money, but to try and expand this bigger and more places and so no, it's amazing.
SPEAKER_03:It it's like uh the woman that I saw speak yesterday who went there, and her story is unbelievable with the tumors and the breast cancer and the bumps under everything, and how she's totally fine right now. But she said how she met people there that flew in private jets. She met people there that were there on GoFundMe. She met people there. You know, it is expensive. Uh but I'll also jump to something you did yesterday, Dan. I I was so blown away and touched and emotional when you were talking about how now you do uh pediatric oncology. Yeah. You weren't going, you that wasn't what you were doing.
SPEAKER_00:I had no intent.
SPEAKER_03:But this woman said, Please help my grandchild, and now that's something you do, which is so sad though, right?
SPEAKER_00:It is a different world, the pediatric oncology. And the grandma she wouldn't take no for an answer, so I acquiesced and said, Okay, I'll try and do something for your grandson. And we did. I remember we actually reached out to my original mentor who's in Israel, Philip Lansky, and he was making pomegranate extract. He was living on a kibbutz in Israel, and they were growing organic pomegranates, and he was putting together a pomegranate in motion that we used to import from just you know, hand bottled, hand sealed, and hand labeled by him. We used some of that and did really well. The kid had hepatoblastoma, and it was, you know, end stages. The conventional medicine didn't have anything for him. So we he was with us for a bit, you know, it was worthwhile. And then little by little, I I don't really know how the word got out, but this was probably 15 years ago. And uh, parents would call us and we would take a case here and there, and now it's like full-fledged.
SPEAKER_03:And then you work with the children's hospitals well. Yeah, yeah. I remember when when my mom got the gluoblastoma, you do anything you can to keep her to survive. And I remember we had heard about, tell me if you guys have heard about this, it was the venom from a blue scorpion. The venom from a blue scorpion in Cuba is the only place in my I'm half Mexican in my uncle's in Mexico. I'm Cuban, so I know about it. So they went to Mexico and they got it and they brought back these bottles and we hid it. We had it in my fridge, and my mom snorted it. She had to do it vaginally, she did all these things. And I I mean, like I said, she lived 18 months. So is there some validity to the blue scorpion venom? I mean, because you did your heart of it. So what?
SPEAKER_00:No, I mean I was about to drop a bomb. I didn't know if this was being edited or not. Go ahead. No, it's you can drop a bomb. You know, you brought your mom to see me. I did, yes. Wow. And you asked me about the blue scorpion venom in Old Town Scottsdale in my office. Did I get an inviting?
SPEAKER_03:Did I get a drip with her? No. I brought my mom. Holy smokes. Isn't that wild? Small world. What? Yeah. Haven't I had like dinner with you? And how have you not brought this up till now?
SPEAKER_00:It just didn't know if it was my business to bring up.
SPEAKER_03:And yeah, so wait, tell me, remind me. Because you know it's funny. I have this like period. You guys are best friends, you don't know. Well, there's this thing. I've remembered this the whole thing. When you go through it, it's like I kind of block things out. You know what I mean? Like there's things my sister brings up that I don't remember. And I'm like, what? So that's why so wait, what happened?
SPEAKER_00:I remember a vaston, and I remember blue you were one of the first to talk about blue scorpion venom. And I you asked me my opinion. I'm like, I don't know, but I don't see why not. And then you did, and we were amazed, and we're like, okay, let's go. Uh we gave her infusions, we yeah, we did, we did, but that was 2010, 2010, 11. That's in 2011 or 2012. So we didn't have as many tools back then. Um, we did what we could and we were far less sophisticated.
SPEAKER_03:I remember going to Old Town Scottsdale with her, and she would get chemo or something, and I sat next to her and I got a vitamin drip.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, maybe I did give you vitamin.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, because I was like, I don't want her to be alone, and then I did the whole thing shaving my head. Wow.
SPEAKER_00:We used to she used to be in a private room a lot, right? In the back of the clinic. What man, look what's up?
SPEAKER_03:Oh, I love this guy.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, the only thing I can think of is that it causes an immune response. Yeah. Maybe it strengthens your immune system, maybe it does something like that. It shocks the system. Yeah, it definitely has to do something.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's gonna be similar to, I mean, in theory, to Coley's toxins, right? I mean, what William Coley was doing back in 1890.
SPEAKER_00:I think it has some. Oh, yeah, we should talk about Coley. That was he's like the father of things. Yeah, right. Who is he? What did he do? Uh, I mean, as far as I know, William Coley, he was a surgeon, and he uh this was back in probably over a hundred years ago. About 1893. Yeah, well, yeah, about 1893. She probably just asked the immunologist since she knows. Um, but the way that I remember it is that there were certain patients who were supposed to have amputations and they had they became infected, and they had to be put on hold for surgery. And during the course of their infection, the tumor resolved. And I guess it was postulated that there must be something, there must have been some type of immune response where the immune system woke up because they saw the the bacterium, the bacteria, and then they then ran, oh holy crap, there's a cancer here, we should probably take care of it. That's how I remembered. Yeah, and so Kohley then developed.
SPEAKER_01:It's debate right. We we all know we're not gonna know if it was direct or bystander activity, but basically, yes, his obviously, you know, very advanced in the before 1900. We didn't know a fraction of what we know about the immune system at that time. Um, but right, he started basically creating a concoction or a collection of bacteria and various um uh stimulations, you know, for like bacterial secretions and things like that, and would inject those into tumors. And yes, in the process and so in the process of the immune system cleaning that up and going after that, it would capture a lot of the cancer. Again, was it directly or was it just kind of, well, there's just all this inflammation and it and so um absolutely he was getting what would be fairly considered a good degree of success in again being realistic to cancer. But uh this could have taken off, but unfortunately, you know, you fast forward just a couple of years and we start getting into the invention of chemotherapy, which of course the first one is a derivative of the mustard gas, and it's you know, literally poison. But it is easier to understand than the immune, we what's the immune system? I mean, it wasn't really something people could under were really understanding at that point because we really didn't know how the immune system worked. And so we're back in the early 1900s, and it's like, oh, chemotherapy, it's a yeah, it's a poison, you poison the cancer. And that ultimately becomes the leader in the clubhouse along with radiation. So that way, by the time, even as we do start to understand the immune system, it's so far back of these now behemoth giants in the space with the chemo and the radiation and whatever that it's been really challenging to overcome. And it honestly hasn't been, I would tell you, until the first checkpoint inhibitor approval in 2011, that that uh immunotherapy as a legitimate uh option has become revitalized. Um and you know, that is which takes you back to the blue scorpion venom. Which we started around the same time, right? Um and so now that we of course understand the immune system much better, it's a little easier for us to tr understand what's going on. And um, I think I've mentioned somewhere, but you know, I in the past, we'll go, we'll go since 2011, but in the past 15 years, immunotherapy has been able to do things in certain cancers that chemotherapy and radiation have not been able to do in over a hundred. I mean, it's just it's you know, that's how it started. I mean, one of the first cancers treated that led to the in um checkpoint inhibitor approval was oh, here's a cancer. Everyone's gonna die. We know that. And we give the patients this, and and all of a sudden a small percentage, not most, but some actually effectively were cured, durable, not just live a little longer, right? They're fine. And it made us all realize hold on, if all you can do is block one checkpoint on uh an immune cell, and you can actually get some population of patients that become cured of their cancer, we know the immune system can do it. We just don't know everything yet, but we know it can. And so that's kind of what has helped really spur all the interest in immunotherapy because it's clearly the way this is going. Even previous inventors of various chemotherapy drugs, some of them have jumped over and it's the immune system.
SPEAKER_03:And this is kind of like your specialty.
SPEAKER_00:What oncology? Yeah. I mean, if you're getting back to the blue scorpion venom, I mean, venom analogs or sequences of different types of animals' venoms are in use in drug manufacturing. Yeah, it's not a strange thing. Right. And so there's some there's biological activity to venom molecular sequences.
SPEAKER_03:But has the venom from the blue scorpion come up in your life since I presented to you 15 years ago?
SPEAKER_00:Here and there, but not much. No, you were the OG.
SPEAKER_03:I was gonna ask you about this. Since you said yesterday, when you were out to speak, you said everybody in this room has been affected by somebody who had cancer, which I was like, yeah, that's true. I believe that. But I was curious about you now that you have this. What's the word? I'm not gonna use the word, but has there anybody you have this special treatment that has got a really high success rate? Are there any family members that have called you up and say, hey man, my sister or your grandma has this, your aunt has this. What can we do? Because I would assume something like that must happen quite frequently.
SPEAKER_01:I've been lucky enough that that really hasn't come up that frequently. Um certainly, so kind of an unfortunate, I will say there's, you know, it's almost an unfortunate irony that um there's been a couple of close people where you have a blood cancer. Well, we're not treating blood cancers. So even though I do this, there's nothing I can do. Uh I do have a family member who's got a tumor that we cannot safely reach for a biopsy. It's in a horrible spot on the brainstem. Wow. It's it's again, it is kind of an irony that uh, you know, seriously, like I there's nothing I can do here. Right. Um so um I, you know, I I I have had, you know, immunoscene is is still relatively new. I mean, I told you we really just opened this up in 2023. So um it's not that obviously I've had uh or not obviously, but yes, I've had grandparents that have passed away from cancer, but that was yours. You know, that was but that is a little bit what led to this is I'm in the lab and I know what this can do, I know how important this is. Absolutely, you know, I would find a way if I had cancer, I would find a way to double load my dendritic cells and I would I would make sure to use those. But that's not a real model. Like, what am I gonna do if my wife gets breast cancer? I'm gonna just say, oh well, that's not gonna happen. Right. And so this led me honestly on the trek to figure out how can we legally, ethically, and with all scientific integrity offer this technology to patients today where it might be not just helpful, but even life-changing and doing a way where we're doing it by the quote unquote by the book.
SPEAKER_03:So, like I was saying on my radio show, if you have cancer or know someone, find immunosine. I actually send them to Dr. Rubin too. And I was gonna go to this website or Google Dr. Rubin, because if they come to you, you can also send them there, right? Because you're on the board, you're part of that.
SPEAKER_00:I work with Immunocene very close. Oh, absolutely, yes.
SPEAKER_03:Uh, because it's like if you have it other than a blood cancer, might as well call immunoscene, right?
SPEAKER_01:All right, no matter what.
SPEAKER_03:Just apply.
SPEAKER_01:Because we we do a lot of work for free, more than people are. It's true. Sure. And we will do a whole medical review. We will look at your last scans, your last labs, your last oncology notes, and we will tell you if we think this is a safe and good move for you. And if it isn't, we'll tell you that.
SPEAKER_03:And you're not scared at all that the big pharma stuff are gonna tie and get rid of you. You're doing this, you're doing this, these amazing things that you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, it's here's the way I he's he's scared. Here's the way I'm scared. You got him nervous. I was gonna say, man, you got him nervous.
SPEAKER_01:Look, here's how I rationalize it to to be able to live my life, right? Think about the profits that big pharma makes.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, billions and billions and billions.
SPEAKER_01:What are we gonna how much of that are we gonna take with a Munisene in Cancun? It's not gonna, it's not gonna move the needle. It just isn't. What's gonna move the needle is the efforts ongoing on the US side with all the trials for an FDA approval where this is now going to be reimbursed by the same thing. That's in the process, right? That's absolutely going. We're we we absolutely are optimistic we're heading pretty soon here towards our first FDA approval. And just so if everyone is listening, I'm not running that company. So if you're gonna take someone out, you need to look at other people, not me.
SPEAKER_02:Uh he's killing his colleagues. You believe that?
SPEAKER_01:Go after them. Uh taking me out, it's not gonna stop the U.S. movement at all. It's actually become a pretty sizable group, pretty reasonably well funded. I mean, we're gonna get there. And unfortunately, there are what you guys are doing.
SPEAKER_03:It's incredible. And I just think you know, probably what's gonna happen with this podcast and and the interviews that we do and the video clips that go viral are probably gonna go viral, and I gotta assume that it's gonna spread eventually. I'm gonna see you guys on 60 minutes or or something like that. This is unbelievable. You look great on camera. You should do. Don't you think? I mean, I feel like we're in the beginning of something tremendous.
SPEAKER_02:There's no FM butts about it. Yeah. Um, I mean, if you look at what the immune system can do and what they're doing, is they're just taking care of a problem within you, activating a problem within you, and giving your own system a chance to fight.
SPEAKER_03:When you have no sign of disease, is that what the phrase is again? What's the disease? No evidence. No evidence of disease. Can you get stem cells after?
SPEAKER_02:We we normally what we actually wait is about a five-year time frame. I'd rather send somebody to Dr. Dan Rubin that does, you know, if you go to your standard doctor, they're gonna do a complete blood count, a comprehensive metabolic panel. They might run one or two markers, which is pretty standard. That's not gonna go into the depth that he's gonna go. I mean, I send people talking to me about this all the time. I don't know if you heard yesterday what I said is people don't understand that a million cells is a speck on a table. You're not gonna detect that. Like, and a billion cells is the tip of my you know, fingertip in a ball, you're not gonna detect that. You gotta dig deeper where you know, some of the molecular analysis of it, looking at a lot deeper, which a lot of things a lot more farther advanced. But when you go to your standard oncologists, they don't test for this stuff. They do not. Like you have to go with somebody like Dan, yeah. It's bad out there.
SPEAKER_03:But can you go if you do uh if you have a year of no sign of a disease, can you go to rehealth and get stem cells?
SPEAKER_02:Or do you we we normally we prefer to wait about five years just post-chemo or something like that? Or post having cancer? Okay, we there's no chemo.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, our our treatment, not to derail, right? We're either we're either gonna work with patients who they don't have any options anymore. Like we're not we're not telling patients to stop, you know, ignore your oncologist, come to us. We're usually dealing with patients that they don't have that option, or we're trying to add this as an adjunct, an additive to do your standard of care. You go for it. That can possibly be helpful, but wouldn't you want to also get your own immune system fixed as well to improve your odds? Right. Um but no, our inherent treatment is all about getting your immune system fixed, not giving chemotherapy.
SPEAKER_03:So do you also uh focus on diet for these people that come in?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we talked to them about that. We cancun's got some good food. It does. It's actually, yeah, it's it's tasty. Um, but yes, we will we will talk to patients about their diet, and we've we've we're actually about to launch further into that. Oh, good.
SPEAKER_03:I was gonna say I interrupted you, so you were saying you wait five years before.
SPEAKER_02:I prefer to wait five years as what we do just to be safe. There are other other entities that, and there's some evidence that, for instance, they're doing studies in Israel, people post chemo, post-radiation, they're treating the injuries that were caused by that with stem cells. Not a big opponent of it because you're also possibly adding fuel to the fire. You know, there's some evidence that this increases blood flow. When you increase blood flow and you have a small amount of cancer, the blood's gonna be directed towards that cancer.
SPEAKER_00:What about that whole gastric cancer theory where this was postulated or I think it was proven year over a decade ago, that at the site of gastric injury with stomach injury, that uh stem cells are recruited to the site of injury and they can get co-opted and turn into cancer cells themselves via the injury. Yeah. Am I quoting that right? Yeah, you are. I remember yeah, and so I think that's part of the problem is if you have a little crypt or nitis of cancer cells somewhere that isn't detectable by minimal residual disease detection, radiology, nobody has symptoms, they're a year later, um, they're vital, they're biohacking, they're doing everything, but there's still that little small area that you don't know of, and you hit it with stem cells, they could intermingle and maybe seduced by those cancer cells.
SPEAKER_01:Stem cells are pluripotent, right? They can become you know, in theory, anything. The question is who what in your body is the winner? I mean, it could go the right way, but the cancer could take it too, and it's just we lose a lot more. We do NKs probably.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we do NKs, yeah. It's a it's a better approach because it is a cell that is directly you know killing cancer cells, mutated cells, virus cells. But going against going back to the stem cell part, the weird thing about that is you know, we do it as a precaution. No, let's not do this. But you've heard of the you know, the product that we actually produce that we use as a topical use, this juvexol product that you use. The crazy thing about that product is in science, which he knows this, we find the weirdest stuff. So we took that, and we're also going back and producing NK exosomes. Exosomes are these bioactive molecules that are released from every cell in the body. It's how your cell your body's the cell communicates from one cell to another cell. It's just a bioactive molecule, it's a nanoparticle. We take what we've produced from the cells that we use, and what we found is those have anti-cancer properties. So much so that we've included them in NK cell experiments as sort of a negative, you know, negative control, and we found out wait a second, here we have melanoma cells that the NK cells kill, but this was supposed to be a negative, basically, it's supposed to not kill at all, and it's wiping out melanoma cells in a petri dish.
SPEAKER_00:But the exosomes themselves.
SPEAKER_02:The exosomes themselves. And then the other neat aspect of it is it it. I mean, we were just taken back by that, that type of evidence. But then when we profile it and we find in real depth, we find that we have a product that also contains insulin growth factor binding proteins. What does that do? That stops proliferation of cells, which is what you want. So it's it's a neat product that we don't quite understand. And then remember, we put these in an artificial condition. So it's not like a natural stem cell that you put in the body and has to basically figure out what's going on. Well, no, that right now is used topically. So I mean, so it's used like a cream? It would be like a cream, like a spray. I mean, I think you've used this before, the the one that you know I've send you a bottle of this stuff before, following microneedling radial frequency. Oh no, I did the microneedle. Yeah, that that. So that right there, we would use that, add it into an experiment to say, okay, let's have a negative control, meaning it's not going to do what we expect it to do. We find the opposite. And that's how science happens sometimes, is all of a sudden, like, oh, what the hell?
SPEAKER_00:Heck, as a clinician.
SPEAKER_02:The question now is what do we do with that? Is I mean, study it more in the context of melanoma. I mean, nobody wants their face all dug into well, you just talked about it. You just got it yesterday. You got zapped yesterday.
SPEAKER_00:As a clinician, I can't wait to get my hands on that and think about the potential for that. Right. I mean, there are, I mean, just using that topic. I mean, isn't about 2% of your skin surface dendritic cells? Um, and so if there's crosstalk between that or you're putting immunactive substances transdermally, um, that's exciting from from a clinician standpoint.
SPEAKER_03:I got a guy I gotta I gotta introduce you to. In fact, I thought about Kevin on the podcast. He's he's a he started this skincare alliance freaking huge. He just sold it for a ton of money and he's working on his next thing, and which is top secret. I don't know what it is, but but you two, you two should uh come out. I gotta talk to him. Yeah, yeah, I gotta do that. Well, listen, thank you guys for coming, man. Is there anything else you want to bring up on Immunocene or or Dr. Dan Rubin or Rehealth?
SPEAKER_02:We we actually we actually do. So what you heard last night on what's being developed, which is the Immunoscene Preserve, and the preserve is just something that's it's beyond important because, like, for instance, what he just said a little bit ago is somebody wants to go traditional route and do their chemo, go do your chemo. But simultaneously, if your chemo fails, if something goes wrong, you should have a backup. And if you do chemo and you have a tumor, the most likely the tumor is gonna shrink, it's gonna become necrotic, it's not gonna be good tissue. But if you're smart and you say, wait a second, I'm interested in this, the vaccine. Before you do that, let us get that biopsy because they're gonna take a biopsy anyway.
SPEAKER_03:Well, this we were talking about yesterday, where you take the biopsy and save it.
SPEAKER_02:And we save it, correct. Yep. If you want to go back and do it. Yeah, so it's been set up because we've been doing this already. Uh, we've been saving tissue because many people, I want to get a biopsy, I'm interested in this, I have some tissue stored somewhere, or it was done somewhere, or I'm going next week. A lot of them always.
SPEAKER_03:You get the tissue from a fresh tumor, and then they fight it with chemo, hopefully it goes away. But if anything ever comes back, then you have this tumor.
SPEAKER_00:Can you prevent it from coming back?
SPEAKER_01:So it's it depends, right? So right, to to echo that, and and immunosenepreserve.com is where you can find more information. But um, yeah, it's just it's very heart, it's heartbreaking almost. There's a lot of patients that have actually called us, and it's just too late. And not too late in a bad way, but too late in a way that we can provide this treatment.
SPEAKER_03:It's too late to save the tumor, but they can still see you.
SPEAKER_01:So they've done the surgery, they did surgery, they did chemo, whatever they did. And they say, Okay, my doctors told me 30% chance it's gonna come back, 70% chance it's gonna come back. I'm good now, but it's gonna come back. I want to get the vaccine. I wanna get why wouldn't I want to do that? Did you save any of the cancer, which is what we need to make your personalized vaccine? And they might say, Oh, it's in a block in the pathology lab. We can't use that. It's too degraded, it's not gonna work for us. So, in an effort to get ahead of that, uh, we've created a very simple kit with some tubes.
SPEAKER_03:So they don't have to go to Cancun.
SPEAKER_01:They don't have to go to Cancun if they have a doctor that is willing to see me, you can do it here.
SPEAKER_00:Well, they don't even need that. They can do it from anywhere. The the system allows for them to register online and go through the steps online. Uh, it's very it's well outlined, it's automated, and they will receive a kit which then they take to their surgeon, yeah, and then they send it back to our lab.
SPEAKER_02:You you know, you also have, and this is something that we didn't speak about is the reoccurrence of actually she talked about it last night. Like the reoccurrence of the cancer coming back. And until she went to immunosine. Until she went to immunosine. But you'll you'll see individuals now, which we've seen, that they have a cancer tumor, and normally somebody would be like, Oh, get this out of me. They'll resect it, they'll remove it, and there might not be any other cancer. But the smart individual many times will say, Well, wait a second, this has a possibility of coming back. Even though right now I've had this remove, I want to move forward and have these vaccines. What is a true vaccine supposed to do? It's supposed to prevent you from getting that at a later date. And we've had individuals that we've done that with that free and clear. One of them I told you about is the esophagus cancer. The individual had it. And so far, older individual had this done some years back. Every time he goes back to get his, you know, to go look, get his camera, they actually look inside to see what's going on, just to reaffirm that there's nothing growing there, anything like that. There's nothing there. That's amazing, man. So it's a true vaccine because the immune system is now primed that if this wants to come back, which happens like a virus or anything else, you and you're sick, bacteria, that's why you go get a vaccine for a flu or whatever it is that you go do. If it works correctly, the immune system, when it tries to come in, the immune system should say, wait a second, I've seen this before, it's not coming back. I'm gonna kill it and I'm gonna attack it. And that's another method to look at the preserve, which is really important to save that tissue because we have the possibility of making this after.
SPEAKER_03:When you talk about the different cancers, though, does it work? You guys also treat prostate cancer, ovarian cancer.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Okay. This is agnostic to the type of cancer.
SPEAKER_03:What if someone's already started chemo and they find out about immunosine? They can come to you mid-chemo, mid-radiation?
SPEAKER_01:Maybe.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. So you fill it out.
SPEAKER_01:Case by case. And yeah, case by case. We'll tell if if that makes sense. If let's say you're some patients, right, they're on the plan is to be on chemo until they pass away. That's the plan. So at some point to do this, yes, the doctors may ethically say, you know what, it's reasonable to take a break from the chemo and come try this. For other patients, it might be the right decision to why don't you finish a couple rounds and and then come to us. And if the team thinks, hey, the chemo may work well, and you may end up in a spot in a couple months where the tumors are really tiny and we can't get a good sample then, let's get one now. So that way at that point, we're good to go and we can wrap things up with this vaccine and you move on with your life. And so we're just trying to get that out there a little quicker because obviously these patients end up very dismayed when they learn that now we can only work with them when it relapses. Right. And that's kind of a sober and like you don't want to think that, especially if you're like, no, no, I I want to do it now. Okay, so how do we do this? And so that's why we've created this kit, we've created the system. But we need to get that word out there. It's it's you know, it's not if you're thinking ahead, it's not terribly expensive. You get some credit on going to Immunocene, it's not expensive.
SPEAKER_03:I was talking to my wife about it last night when you were talking about some of the prices. I was like, if we do about immunoscene when my mom was alive, I said to my wife, would we? She was like, we would have done everything, you know, refinance the house, do everything you can because you're keeping around forever, right? So do what you can.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, yeah. And if you go through the system, you're gonna pay that anyway. You're most likely gonna pay that unless you decide to go this is the easiest route.
SPEAKER_01:You're just gonna do chemo, and if chemo works, it works, but you're still gonna end up having a bunch of out of pockets recently who told me, uh, you know, last year I spent$260,000 on care. People unf this is very unfortunate, right? A lot of people, um, so 70% of stage four, this is a recent publication, 70% of stage four cancer patients are not actually aware of how dire their situation is because the doctor is too nice to tell them he's you know, they don't know that they're looking at a ticking clock here. And then you've got a bunch of these patients, they don't know what they're about to spend. There's not sticker shock, no one's asking them for you know$120,000 up front. But even with insurance, yeah, you're gonna end up spending if it's late stage, if that's where we're at, if it's a stage four or a tough cancer, you're gonna be out of pocket, 140 to 220 on average in the first year. But it's the bills. It's gonna they're gonna keep coming and keep coming and keep coming. And every time you have an oncology consultation or another medication or another biopsy, yeah, those keep coming. And so unfortunately, people end up with a lot of people.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, doctors are too nice. They're afraid. I think uh I was talking to a buddy when he was a doctor, and he was afraid he's gonna get sued. So they're kind of that's one of the reasons I love my doctor who you guys met. You guys all know, Dr. Bordico. In fact, I wish she was here. Because she, I've never met anyone like her before.
SPEAKER_00:She's like, There isn't anybody like her. There isn't anyone like that.
SPEAKER_03:She said to me, she's like, she goes, uh, hey, your L5 is fucked. I was like, and that's when I went to rehealth to get all these. By the way, tomorrow it'll be three weeks that I had all the stem cell stuff put in my spine. And I've been kind of like, you know, doing okay. But yesterday and today, today especially, I feel so normal. Isn't that crazy? In three weeks? In three weeks? That's awesome. That is great. Yeah, it's nuts. The stem cell stuff is legit, man. But okay, Immunoscene.com for the clinic in Cancun. Yes. The other one was this Immunoscenepreserve. Preserve.com. Yep. Then there's rehealth.com or stem cells at NK Cells. And the Juva, what's the juva one?
SPEAKER_02:Juvexo is juvexo.com. Juvex is our secret home, uh, which is that product that we talked about topically.
SPEAKER_03:That's where you go all over the United States to speak in on that one, right? Yeah. And then what about you, Dr. Rubin?
SPEAKER_00:We're listenandcare.com.
SPEAKER_03:Ooh, wow. That's what we do. That's very nice. Thank you. Well, thank you, guys. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Absolutely. Thank you. Okay, so welcome to our podcast. This is a little bit different today because this podcast is a spin-off of our radio show.
