{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.4,"endTime":4.366,"body":"shelf help today we're speaking with Chris Fenster"},{"startTime":4.366,"endTime":7.1,"body":"founder and CEO of Propeller Industries"},{"startTime":7.1,"endTime":9.733,"body":"the embedded finance and accounting partner to"},{"startTime":10.066,"endTime":11.966,"body":"release some of the most iconic emerging"},{"startTime":11.966,"endTime":14.933,"body":"consumer brands in the last 18 years or so"},{"startTime":15.4,"endTime":18.166,"body":"Chris started propeller I think back in in 2008"},{"startTime":18.166,"endTime":19.666,"body":"after spending a good chunk of time in"},{"startTime":19.666,"endTime":22.166,"body":"13 years or so as a both a co owner"},{"startTime":22.366,"endTime":24.866,"body":"and a CFO of of a series of businesses"},{"startTime":25.066,"endTime":26.266,"body":"some of which exited to"},{"startTime":26.266,"endTime":28.566,"body":"to some significant category leaders"},{"startTime":29.266,"endTime":30.266,"body":"start to finish was"},{"startTime":30.266,"endTime":32.533,"body":"was one which is just the one that jumped out to me it's"},{"startTime":32.6,"endTime":34.366,"body":"was a leading independent bike shop chain"},{"startTime":34.366,"endTime":36.0,"body":"that was actually I think started in"},{"startTime":36.1,"endTime":37.233,"body":"my hometown in Marin"},{"startTime":37.233,"endTime":38.9,"body":"County California so that one immediately"},{"startTime":38.9,"endTime":41.733,"body":"jumped out to me yeah propeller team I think it's"},{"startTime":42.0,"endTime":45.4,"body":"a little over 250 people across three continents"},{"startTime":45.766,"endTime":48.333,"body":"they've served close to 15"},{"startTime":48.433,"endTime":50.0,"body":"venture and growth stage companies"},{"startTime":50.0,"endTime":52.3,"body":"including 24 unicorns so"},{"startTime":52.666,"endTime":55.3,"body":"Chris and the team has definitely seen a lot so very"},{"startTime":55.3,"endTime":56.3,"body":"excited to dive into it"},{"startTime":56.3,"endTime":58.0,"body":"yeah Chris maybe just kind of first off for listeners"},{"startTime":58.0,"endTime":59.666,"body":"maybe the for the ones that aren't that familiar"},{"startTime":59.666,"endTime":61.666,"body":"with propeller love it just get"},{"startTime":61.666,"endTime":64.3,"body":"quick lay of the land just in terms of kind of the"},{"startTime":64.433,"endTime":65.966,"body":"the origin story the why behind"},{"startTime":65.966,"endTime":68.0,"body":"starting propeller way back in 2008"},{"startTime":68.0,"endTime":70.166,"body":"and then maybe just kind of high level what the Kenna"},{"startTime":70.166,"endTime":72.3,"body":"team does actually does for"},{"startTime":72.3,"endTime":74.966,"body":"emerging consumer brands in terms of fractional CFO"},{"startTime":74.966,"endTime":76.5,"body":"controller accounting F P N a"},{"startTime":76.5,"endTime":78.233,"body":"trade spend all that kind of stuff and then"},{"startTime":78.233,"endTime":79.066,"body":"we'll go from there"},{"startTime":79.7,"endTime":82.4,"body":"sounds good first of all thanks for having me I'm a"},{"startTime":82.4,"endTime":85.066,"body":"yeah they say like you know big fan"},{"startTime":85.066,"endTime":86.666,"body":"long time listener I sort of"},{"startTime":86.666,"endTime":90.2,"body":"stumbled into this like I I did not set out to"},{"startTime":90.366,"endTime":92.933,"body":"start a company or be the"},{"startTime":93.0,"endTime":96.3,"body":"CEO I I'm kind of more of a working in the background"},{"startTime":96.3,"endTime":100.533,"body":"comfort level person and um so I was the"},{"startTime":100.766,"endTime":101.8,"body":"first finance hire at"},{"startTime":101.8,"endTime":105.066,"body":"four startups and the first one was the cycling"},{"startTime":105.166,"endTime":108.2,"body":"business that you talked about in San Francisco"},{"startTime":108.5,"endTime":110.833,"body":"that was I thought that was gonna be like a pit"},{"startTime":110.833,"endTime":113.166,"body":"stop on the way to sort of going back to business"},{"startTime":113.166,"endTime":114.966,"body":"school like I just was looking for something"},{"startTime":114.966,"endTime":117.433,"body":"entrepreneurial to do to talk about in interviews"},{"startTime":117.433,"endTime":120.866,"body":"and just really fell in love with the business"},{"startTime":120.866,"endTime":122.8,"body":"and I think part of it was just like"},{"startTime":122.8,"endTime":126.433,"body":"having impact in business building and you know I"},{"startTime":126.433,"endTime":128.6,"body":"spent a couple years before that in consulting"},{"startTime":128.6,"endTime":130.8,"body":"like my first job out of school was at a consulting"},{"startTime":130.8,"endTime":134.8,"body":"firm and and I Learned a lot but I"},{"startTime":135.666,"endTime":138.8,"body":"I didn't build anything that anybody would"},{"startTime":138.966,"endTime":141.633,"body":"notice you know nothing that would like outlast me and"},{"startTime":141.633,"endTime":142.433,"body":"and"},{"startTime":143.0,"endTime":146.666,"body":"so I just I had the bug and I I was was interested"},{"startTime":146.666,"endTime":148.2,"body":"in doing something more entrepreneurial"},{"startTime":148.2,"endTime":150.9,"body":"before B school and and sort of stumbled into this"},{"startTime":151.033,"endTime":151.966,"body":"cycling business"},{"startTime":151.966,"endTime":153.866,"body":"and just wound up falling in love with it"},{"startTime":153.866,"endTime":156.8,"body":"and and I love the impact that I could have and"},{"startTime":157.166,"endTime":158.866,"body":"it was really dynamic"},{"startTime":160.366,"endTime":163.066,"body":"and when I really started to think about it I'm not"},{"startTime":163.366,"endTime":166.0,"body":"much of a school person like"},{"startTime":166.4,"endTime":169.066,"body":"I was okay at it I wasn't great at school"},{"startTime":169.8,"endTime":173.533,"body":"just sort of felt like OK I'm gonna stay here and and"},{"startTime":173.666,"endTime":176.666,"body":"learn more and and see what we can do with it and so I"},{"startTime":176.666,"endTime":179.166,"body":"I scrounged up some money from friends and family"},{"startTime":179.166,"endTime":181.933,"body":"and and invested and became partners with"},{"startTime":182.2,"endTime":184.9,"body":"the guy that hired me and and we just we busted"},{"startTime":184.9,"endTime":187.266,"body":"our asses and made every mistake in the book and"},{"startTime":187.266,"endTime":190.3,"body":"but also wound up selling the company to Trek"},{"startTime":190.3,"endTime":191.833,"body":"a couple years later and"},{"startTime":191.833,"endTime":193.866,"body":"you know I was like 26 and we had this"},{"startTime":193.866,"endTime":197.633,"body":"you know wasn't a huge business but but it was solid"},{"startTime":197.633,"endTime":199.566,"body":"and and you know you'd heard about it you"},{"startTime":199.566,"endTime":200.966,"body":"like it was really well known in the"},{"startTime":200.966,"endTime":202.633,"body":"area I think it was the second largest"},{"startTime":202.633,"endTime":204.233,"body":"independent bicycle dealer in the country"},{"startTime":204.233,"endTime":205.666,"body":"at the time and"},{"startTime":206.166,"endTime":208.433,"body":"I just sort of felt like the man you know it was a"},{"startTime":208.433,"endTime":210.4,"body":"it was a cool thing to do and it was"},{"startTime":211.433,"endTime":213.833,"body":"you know it was sort of addictive"},{"startTime":213.833,"endTime":216.833,"body":"like it was like a dopamine hit I think to feel"},{"startTime":216.833,"endTime":218.5,"body":"like I could make a difference"},{"startTime":218.5,"endTime":220.233,"body":"somewhere especially after consulting"},{"startTime":220.233,"endTime":222.266,"body":"you know I was just like another kid in a suit"},{"startTime":223.5,"endTime":227.8,"body":"and you know wasn't like a life changing financial exit"},{"startTime":228.166,"endTime":228.9,"body":"uh but it was definitely"},{"startTime":228.9,"endTime":231.433,"body":"life changing in terms of like direction and and"},{"startTime":231.433,"endTime":233.433,"body":"passion so um"},{"startTime":233.433,"endTime":235.633,"body":"what I didn't know was how hard it is to actually"},{"startTime":235.633,"endTime":238.4,"body":"do what you know what we had done and so I I um"},{"startTime":238.6,"endTime":240.866,"body":"I partnered with another guy"},{"startTime":241.466,"endTime":243.866,"body":"who'd built in apparel business and um"},{"startTime":243.9,"endTime":246.666,"body":"you know we we spent six years trying to"},{"startTime":246.666,"endTime":248.8,"body":"do the same thing and just ultimately"},{"startTime":248.866,"endTime":251.333,"body":"couldn't do it we ended up selling the company but"},{"startTime":251.433,"endTime":254.133,"body":"you know I left with I left with debt and um"},{"startTime":254.833,"endTime":256.033,"body":"you know it was just it was"},{"startTime":256.033,"endTime":258.3,"body":"it was an unsatisfying outcome"},{"startTime":258.466,"endTime":260.666,"body":"yeah you know for me and for all of our investors"},{"startTime":260.666,"endTime":261.566,"body":"and sure"},{"startTime":262.2,"endTime":263.6,"body":"you know it was"},{"startTime":264.2,"endTime":267.233,"body":"I just I Learned a lot in the process right so"},{"startTime":267.233,"endTime":269.2,"body":"I after that I was the first finance"},{"startTime":269.2,"endTime":271.033,"body":"hire at two more startups and neither"},{"startTime":271.033,"endTime":273.5,"body":"one of those really amounted to anything but"},{"startTime":274.3,"endTime":275.766,"body":"you know I think what I sort of finally"},{"startTime":275.766,"endTime":276.766,"body":"figured out is that I"},{"startTime":276.766,"endTime":279.3,"body":"I really love the work and I can't help myself"},{"startTime":279.3,"endTime":281.5,"body":"like I love getting into early stage companies"},{"startTime":281.5,"endTime":282.566,"body":"and I love"},{"startTime":282.866,"endTime":286.866,"body":"the exercise of figuring stuff out and I'm nerdy"},{"startTime":287.366,"endTime":288.633,"body":"and I'm determined"},{"startTime":288.633,"endTime":291.466,"body":"and and I'm sort of stubborn and I'll I'll"},{"startTime":291.466,"endTime":293.033,"body":"stick with something until I really"},{"startTime":293.033,"endTime":294.833,"body":"get it right and that was it was a good role"},{"startTime":294.833,"endTime":296.633,"body":"for me but I was a little gun shy"},{"startTime":296.633,"endTime":298.633,"body":"and I didn't want I really didn't want to start a company"},{"startTime":298.633,"endTime":301.133,"body":"so I was looking for somebody else to hire me"},{"startTime":301.266,"endTime":304.5,"body":"to be like the startup CFO person"},{"startTime":304.5,"endTime":305.466,"body":"inside a bigger company"},{"startTime":305.466,"endTime":306.966,"body":"and I talked to a bunch of other"},{"startTime":307.033,"endTime":309.4,"body":"firms in San Francisco that had like part time"},{"startTime":309.4,"endTime":310.933,"body":"CFO people and"},{"startTime":311.466,"endTime":313.166,"body":"none of them focused on startups"},{"startTime":313.166,"endTime":315.933,"body":"which I just thought was really weird"},{"startTime":316.0,"endTime":318.933,"body":"and so I was I was just sort of like you know what I"},{"startTime":319.366,"endTime":321.4,"body":"I think I know how to do this and after that second"},{"startTime":321.4,"endTime":322.2,"body":"company"},{"startTime":322.766,"endTime":326.1,"body":"I had I was looking for a rebound job cause I"},{"startTime":326.1,"endTime":328.2,"body":"you know I needed a paycheck"},{"startTime":328.2,"endTime":330.066,"body":"cause I hadn't gotten a paycheck in a while and"},{"startTime":330.066,"endTime":332.5,"body":"and I stumbled into this nonprofit that handled"},{"startTime":332.5,"endTime":335.2,"body":"finance and accounting for 300 other nonprofits"},{"startTime":335.2,"endTime":338.366,"body":"it was it's still there it's down in the Presidio in San Francisco"},{"startTime":339.1,"endTime":344.666,"body":"and that turned out to be the perfect model for what"},{"startTime":344.833,"endTime":346.5,"body":"would eventually be propeller"},{"startTime":346.5,"endTime":349.066,"body":"and so when I started propeller in 2008"},{"startTime":349.166,"endTime":350.833,"body":"I had this crystal clear picture"},{"startTime":350.833,"endTime":353.0,"body":"of you know what it would look like"},{"startTime":353.0,"endTime":354.7,"body":"because I'd Learned it this non profit"},{"startTime":354.7,"endTime":357.8,"body":"like I'd done it and it turned out to be really timely"},{"startTime":357.8,"endTime":358.4,"body":"it was"},{"startTime":358.4,"endTime":360.766,"body":"you know it was a little bit of foresight and um"},{"startTime":360.866,"endTime":362.8,"body":"I had the right DNA for the job"},{"startTime":362.8,"endTime":366.066,"body":"cause I was I was really determined to do the job I was really passionate"},{"startTime":366.066,"endTime":368.466,"body":"about it and if those three companies"},{"startTime":368.466,"endTime":370.7,"body":"in a row hadn't failed I never would have"},{"startTime":371.0,"endTime":373.133,"body":"started it but"},{"startTime":373.566,"endTime":376.566,"body":"you know when when things everything went digital"},{"startTime":377.0,"endTime":377.433,"body":"everything"},{"startTime":377.433,"endTime":380.666,"body":"in the finance stack went from analog to digital and"},{"startTime":380.766,"endTime":382.2,"body":"everything went from on premise"},{"startTime":382.2,"endTime":384.966,"body":"to cloud and those were just both massive tailwinds and"},{"startTime":384.966,"endTime":387.666,"body":"you know today almost everybody does"},{"startTime":387.666,"endTime":390.5,"body":"things the way that you know we started to do them and"},{"startTime":390.833,"endTime":392.866,"body":"2008 so now the firm's a lot bigger"},{"startTime":392.866,"endTime":395.433,"body":"it's not a startup it's you know it's 18 years and"},{"startTime":395.433,"endTime":397.666,"body":"but it really it all came out of that first"},{"startTime":397.666,"endTime":399.1,"body":"experience working in the"},{"startTime":399.1,"endTime":400.966,"body":"bicycle business that you mentioned"},{"startTime":402.966,"endTime":403.9,"body":"CPG pitch deck"},{"startTime":403.9,"endTime":406.0,"body":"which I'm sure you see plenty of that says you know our gross"},{"startTime":406.0,"endTime":407.9,"body":"margin is 40% let's say"},{"startTime":407.9,"endTime":409.1,"body":"but then you know realistically"},{"startTime":412.366,"endTime":413.2,"body":"some of the promos"},{"startTime":413.2,"endTime":415.5,"body":"some of the deductions and Bill back slotting fees"},{"startTime":415.666,"endTime":418.6,"body":"that 40% ends up looking closer to I don't know 12 to"},{"startTime":418.6,"endTime":420.433,"body":"18 12 to 15% or so"},{"startTime":420.433,"endTime":422.566,"body":"assuming that you know resonates with you I guess like"},{"startTime":422.566,"endTime":424.266,"body":"when you walk into a new"},{"startTime":424.366,"endTime":426.766,"body":"CPG brand that Propeller's working with"},{"startTime":426.966,"endTime":429.2,"body":"and you ask for you know what the true contribution"},{"startTime":429.2,"endTime":431.333,"body":"margin is by skew and by channel"},{"startTime":431.6,"endTime":434.333,"body":"what do you kind of I don't know typically find versus"},{"startTime":434.366,"endTime":437.133,"body":"what the team thinks the number is"},{"startTime":438.266,"endTime":439.9,"body":"yeah it's a good question"},{"startTime":439.9,"endTime":444.0,"body":"and and the answer has evolved over time cause I think"},{"startTime":444.766,"endTime":447.0,"body":"if we're talking about Propeller"},{"startTime":447.8,"endTime":450.6,"body":"18 years ago or 15 years ago"},{"startTime":451.166,"endTime":453.766,"body":"we were working with really small companies"},{"startTime":453.766,"endTime":456.5,"body":"our incoming clients was was basically anybody"},{"startTime":456.5,"endTime":457.666,"body":"that would hire us"},{"startTime":457.8,"endTime":460.7,"body":"right totally and I mean seriously and you know we"},{"startTime":460.7,"endTime":463.266,"body":"and we didn't know what we didn't know I had worked at a CPG"},{"startTime":463.266,"endTime":466.4,"body":"company previously so I had some experience"},{"startTime":466.4,"endTime":469.233,"body":"you know working at one CPG company but like definitely"},{"startTime":469.233,"endTime":471.7,"body":"didn't have the reps that I do now and so"},{"startTime":471.766,"endTime":474.766,"body":"we would see all kinds of stuff and it would look a lot like what you're describing"},{"startTime":474.766,"endTime":477.166,"body":"companies come in and and they don't actually"},{"startTime":477.166,"endTime":478.566,"body":"know that all their trade deductions"},{"startTime":478.566,"endTime":481.5,"body":"are supposed to come out of revenue and so right"},{"startTime":481.666,"endTime":486.033,"body":"you know margins are overstated on sort of a gap level"},{"startTime":486.033,"endTime":488.066,"body":"you know the bottom line number is is"},{"startTime":488.066,"endTime":491.133,"body":"more or less right but the the gross profit number is"},{"startTime":491.566,"endTime":493.233,"body":"is wrong and"},{"startTime":493.233,"endTime":495.033,"body":"you know we could we could fix that pretty easily"},{"startTime":495.033,"endTime":495.8,"body":"it would shake out"},{"startTime":495.8,"endTime":497.9,"body":"more or less the way that you described it"},{"startTime":497.9,"endTime":500.366,"body":"these days the incoming clients are are just"},{"startTime":500.366,"endTime":503.166,"body":"bigger so now there are there are a lot of and"},{"startTime":503.166,"endTime":503.666,"body":"bookkeeping"},{"startTime":503.666,"endTime":505.966,"body":"firms have gotten a lot better so companies"},{"startTime":505.966,"endTime":507.333,"body":"don't really need us"},{"startTime":507.633,"endTime":510.3,"body":"at that stage and at this point the companies"},{"startTime":510.3,"endTime":512.933,"body":"that come to us are you know are often doing"},{"startTime":513.2,"endTime":516.066,"body":"five or 10 million in revenue and they've been working"},{"startTime":516.3,"endTime":517.266,"body":"with a capable"},{"startTime":517.266,"endTime":520.266,"body":"bookkeeping firm or maybe they've got a fractional"},{"startTime":520.4,"endTime":521.6,"body":"CFO person"},{"startTime":521.6,"endTime":524.2,"body":"so the the numbers are generally in good shape"},{"startTime":525.566,"endTime":527.333,"body":"I think um"},{"startTime":528.966,"endTime":533.666,"body":"there is an an evolution of margins over time um"},{"startTime":534.233,"endTime":537.933,"body":"and that's something that I think we've gotten a lot more"},{"startTime":538.1,"endTime":542.066,"body":"clarity on you know as as the business has grown"},{"startTime":542.066,"endTime":543.066,"body":"we've gotten more reps"},{"startTime":543.066,"endTime":546.366,"body":"and we've worked with larger and larger companies"},{"startTime":547.0,"endTime":547.8,"body":"um"},{"startTime":548.2,"endTime":553.0,"body":"so you know I think that's that's it maybe it's"},{"startTime":553.0,"endTime":555.566,"body":"it's a different question than one that you asked um"},{"startTime":556.033,"endTime":558.7,"body":"you know those those smallest companies with a"},{"startTime":558.7,"endTime":560.366,"body":"with a 12 to 18 margins"},{"startTime":560.366,"endTime":562.966,"body":"like a lot of them just aren't gonna make it sure sure"},{"startTime":563.066,"endTime":565.033,"body":"right like they they just never get funded"},{"startTime":565.033,"endTime":567.1,"body":"or they die before they get to propeller"},{"startTime":567.6,"endTime":571.5,"body":"um you know the the good ones will will"},{"startTime":571.766,"endTime":574.233,"body":"figure it out and then you know if we're lucky"},{"startTime":574.233,"endTime":576.266,"body":"enough to work with them um"},{"startTime":576.266,"endTime":578.633,"body":"you know there's a whole sort of evolution that happens"},{"startTime":578.633,"endTime":581.766,"body":"after that as they go into like these different stages"},{"startTime":581.766,"endTime":584.133,"body":"and they get you know different amounts of funding"},{"startTime":584.466,"endTime":587.7,"body":"so I'm happy to chat about that if it's helpful yeah"},{"startTime":587.7,"endTime":589.8,"body":"yeah go for it for sure that I think that definitely"},{"startTime":590.133,"endTime":591.9,"body":"that you can look at like between"},{"startTime":592.333,"endTime":595.533,"body":"five and 10 million and I've got you know we've got"},{"startTime":595.533,"endTime":596.6,"body":"we've got a lot of companies"},{"startTime":596.6,"endTime":599.0,"body":"in this data set like between five and 10 million"},{"startTime":599.333,"endTime":601.566,"body":"like typical margins in CPG"},{"startTime":601.566,"endTime":604.9,"body":"when they're accounted for properly are like 40 to"},{"startTime":605.433,"endTime":607.266,"body":"45 or maybe they they think they're 45"},{"startTime":607.433,"endTime":608.5,"body":"when we get the numbers"},{"startTime":608.5,"endTime":610.333,"body":"right they're really maybe 30 40"},{"startTime":610.433,"endTime":612.133,"body":"you know by the time we get like accruals"},{"startTime":612.133,"endTime":615.6,"body":"and slotting and everything sort of properly reported"},{"startTime":617.4,"endTime":621.5,"body":"the weird thing is that gross margins usually go down"},{"startTime":621.7,"endTime":623.266,"body":"before they go up"},{"startTime":623.9,"endTime":625.8,"body":"so I know that seems sort of counterintuitive"},{"startTime":625.8,"endTime":627.633,"body":"cause of like if you think they're at 12 and"},{"startTime":627.633,"endTime":629.566,"body":"you know 12 or 18 like well there's no"},{"startTime":629.566,"endTime":630.5,"body":"there's nowhere to go"},{"startTime":630.5,"endTime":633.6,"body":"you can't go down from there right and survive but"},{"startTime":633.633,"endTime":636.833,"body":"you know when the companies come in at like 35 to 40"},{"startTime":637.233,"endTime":638.033,"body":"like"},{"startTime":638.733,"endTime":641.133,"body":"they'll typically decrease"},{"startTime":641.3,"endTime":645.466,"body":"down to about 30% at like 80 million"},{"startTime":645.766,"endTime":649.2,"body":"and then they'll tick back up you know to maybe 40%"},{"startTime":649.2,"endTime":651.966,"body":"at 180 million and and and then they actually"},{"startTime":651.966,"endTime":655.566,"body":"start to accelerate a little bit so like 45% at 200 million is"},{"startTime":655.566,"endTime":656.4,"body":"is is"},{"startTime":656.4,"endTime":658.733,"body":"you know is pretty standard across the board"},{"startTime":658.833,"endTime":661.9,"body":"so the question is like why is that happening and"},{"startTime":661.966,"endTime":665.3,"body":"a lot of it is channel expansion"},{"startTime":666.533,"endTime":669.033,"body":"cause when you're in natural you just have"},{"startTime":669.1,"endTime":671.133,"body":"more pricing flexibility"},{"startTime":672.0,"endTime":672.833,"body":"a lot of companies"},{"startTime":672.833,"endTime":676.466,"body":"are starting out you know or a lot of our clients are starting out in the"},{"startTime":676.5,"endTime":677.666,"body":"natural channel"},{"startTime":678.233,"endTime":681.666,"body":"and you just have a little more pricing power there"},{"startTime":682.333,"endTime":686.766,"body":"but over time you get a funded right so so"},{"startTime":686.766,"endTime":687.833,"body":"you know at a certain point somebody"},{"startTime":687.833,"endTime":689.533,"body":"writes you a growth check and you've got 10 million"},{"startTime":689.533,"endTime":690.3,"body":"bucks in your bank"},{"startTime":690.3,"endTime":692.733,"body":"account and and a mandate to you know"},{"startTime":693.333,"endTime":695.0,"body":"go turn 10 million into"},{"startTime":695.0,"endTime":698.3,"body":"you know 50 million or whatever it's gonna be right um"},{"startTime":698.3,"endTime":700.8,"body":"so that drives a you know bunch of investment"},{"startTime":700.8,"endTime":701.7,"body":"like those dollars"},{"startTime":701.7,"endTime":703.4,"body":"are there to be spent and a lot of that"},{"startTime":703.4,"endTime":704.8,"body":"investment goes into"},{"startTime":705.8,"endTime":708.833,"body":"you know slotting and more competitive pricing"},{"startTime":708.833,"endTime":710.933,"body":"and you start to also see"},{"startTime":711.166,"endTime":715.033,"body":"channel expansion into grocery where"},{"startTime":715.033,"endTime":718.433,"body":"you know pricing is just a lot more competitive"},{"startTime":718.833,"endTime":721.366,"body":"and then you can also see category expansion"},{"startTime":721.366,"endTime":722.533,"body":"you know into new areas"},{"startTime":722.533,"endTime":724.633,"body":"where you know maybe you got a bunch of new products"},{"startTime":724.633,"endTime":728.033,"body":"but the volume is lower so the margins are lower"},{"startTime":728.033,"endTime":729.433,"body":"cause you haven't actually hit scale"},{"startTime":729.433,"endTime":731.733,"body":"yet so the combination of those three things like channel"},{"startTime":731.733,"endTime":733.666,"body":"expansion product expansion"},{"startTime":734.0,"endTime":737.6,"body":"and then just you know the more money you have the more money you're gonna spend"},{"startTime":737.7,"endTime":740.366,"body":"is part of what actually drives those margins down"},{"startTime":740.366,"endTime":742.7,"body":"trust me nobody puts this in their forecast"},{"startTime":742.7,"endTime":743.3,"body":"right nobody"},{"startTime":743.3,"endTime":745.9,"body":"comes in saying oh our margins are gonna go"},{"startTime":746.033,"endTime":747.833,"body":"you know from like"},{"startTime":748.133,"endTime":753.7,"body":"40 down to 35 but like that's what the data says yeah"},{"startTime":754.366,"endTime":755.433,"body":"so"},{"startTime":756.133,"endTime":756.966,"body":"that makes sense"},{"startTime":759.066,"endTime":760.333,"body":"interesting to be able to actually"},{"startTime":760.333,"endTime":762.666,"body":"see the data across a whole bunch of companies"},{"startTime":762.666,"endTime":763.433,"body":"yeah I'm sure cause"},{"startTime":763.433,"endTime":766.133,"body":"for a long time it was like wait I think this is what happens"},{"startTime":766.133,"endTime":768.233,"body":"but right I'm not really sure"},{"startTime":793.983,"endTime":795.716,"body":"yeah I'm sure as you guys got more of that data set"},{"startTime":795.716,"endTime":797.8829999999999,"body":"the more clients you get probably the more value"},{"startTime":797.8829999999999,"endTime":800.116,"body":"valuable you are to clients"},{"startTime":800.116,"endTime":801.983,"body":"cause you have that data set to say here's the patterns"},{"startTime":801.983,"endTime":804.55,"body":"we see we're gonna help you avoid it I imagine yeah"},{"startTime":805.9159999999999,"endTime":807.983,"body":"when it comes to cash conversion"},{"startTime":808.2829999999999,"endTime":809.9159999999999,"body":"I've seen some stat and you can"},{"startTime":809.9159999999999,"endTime":811.683,"body":"correct me if I'm wrong you're gonna know much better than"},{"startTime":811.683,"endTime":814.55,"body":"I do I've seen some stat that it said you know 85% of"},{"startTime":814.75,"endTime":816.9159999999999,"body":"new brands that fail in the first year"},{"startTime":816.9159999999999,"endTime":819.016,"body":"that they do fail in the first year and the reason it is"},{"startTime":819.016,"endTime":822.983,"body":"is just often because cash just kind of dries up"},{"startTime":823.216,"endTime":825.083,"body":"during that gap between when you're paying your co"},{"startTime":825.083,"endTime":825.8829999999999,"body":"packer"},{"startTime":825.9499999999999,"endTime":829.183,"body":"and actually getting paid back by the retailer um"},{"startTime":829.516,"endTime":831.75,"body":"assuming that from that you know assuming that you're"},{"startTime":831.75,"endTime":834.716,"body":"on the same page like from your seat what does the"},{"startTime":834.8159999999999,"endTime":837.216,"body":"I guess kind of want to call it working capital"},{"startTime":837.516,"endTime":840.216,"body":"death spiral actually look like and then"},{"startTime":840.216,"endTime":842.3499999999999,"body":"is there a certain revenue or kind of gross stage"},{"startTime":842.3499999999999,"endTime":844.8159999999999,"body":"where it typically hits like where you're just talking about where"},{"startTime":844.8499999999999,"endTime":847.483,"body":"you got up to that much larger size 80 million"},{"startTime":847.483,"endTime":849.216,"body":"where gross margin drops a bit I imagine"},{"startTime":849.216,"endTime":851.483,"body":"that's not where this happens but yeah where would you"},{"startTime":851.483,"endTime":853.216,"body":"is there kind of a pattern where you see"},{"startTime":853.25,"endTime":854.683,"body":"at what revenue or kind of gross stage"},{"startTime":854.683,"endTime":857.016,"body":"where this really starts to hit and where companies can"},{"startTime":857.016,"endTime":858.9159999999999,"body":"start to stumble and potentially fail"},{"startTime":859.65,"endTime":864.016,"body":"yeah so look let's let's call out like two different"},{"startTime":864.016,"endTime":867.9159999999999,"body":"failure modes for the death spiral there's an early"},{"startTime":868.483,"endTime":873.016,"body":"failure mode and a lot of that is unforced air"},{"startTime":873.016,"endTime":874.3159999999999,"body":"you know where founders"},{"startTime":874.4159999999999,"endTime":877.9499999999999,"body":"figure out how much capital to ask for by"},{"startTime":877.9499999999999,"endTime":880.3829999999999,"body":"looking at the losses that"},{"startTime":880.8159999999999,"endTime":883.216,"body":"show up on their financial projections"},{"startTime":883.3499999999999,"endTime":885.4159999999999,"body":"like on their PNL so they they"},{"startTime":885.4159999999999,"endTime":887.216,"body":"figure out like how much money are we gonna lose"},{"startTime":887.216,"endTime":891.8499999999999,"body":"over the next you know 18 months and and"},{"startTime":892.216,"endTime":894.9499999999999,"body":"of course they always sort of underestimate it uh"},{"startTime":895.016,"endTime":896.3499999999999,"body":"cause you know there's a bunch of costs"},{"startTime":896.3499999999999,"endTime":898.4499999999999,"body":"that aren't in there that should be in there"},{"startTime":898.4499999999999,"endTime":902.4159999999999,"body":"but a lot of them just completely forget to"},{"startTime":903.216,"endTime":905.75,"body":"think about the balance sheet it's just like it's"},{"startTime":905.75,"endTime":908.216,"body":"and it happens a little bit less frequently I think for our"},{"startTime":908.216,"endTime":908.9159999999999,"body":"you know our clients"},{"startTime":908.9159999999999,"endTime":911.583,"body":"now that we engage a little bit later but sure"},{"startTime":911.8499999999999,"endTime":915.9159999999999,"body":"you know inventory 60 days of inventory and you know"},{"startTime":915.9159999999999,"endTime":918.616,"body":"60 days of accounts receivable"},{"startTime":919.083,"endTime":922.516,"body":"you know minus maybe a little bit of accounts payable"},{"startTime":922.516,"endTime":925.15,"body":"like that's the number and in a lot of cases"},{"startTime":925.3499999999999,"endTime":928.25,"body":"whatever the number is on the PNL it's"},{"startTime":928.25,"endTime":932.8159999999999,"body":"it's double that is what you really need and so they just they wind up not raising"},{"startTime":932.8159999999999,"endTime":933.716,"body":"enough money"},{"startTime":933.9159999999999,"endTime":937.216,"body":"and running out of cash before they've sort of hit the"},{"startTime":937.25,"endTime":939.716,"body":"you know the proof point or or the the"},{"startTime":939.8499999999999,"endTime":942.3499999999999,"body":"threshold to be able to raise more money at a higher"},{"startTime":942.516,"endTime":944.9159999999999,"body":"valuation it's just completely because they weren't"},{"startTime":945.716,"endTime":948.016,"body":"you know properly forecasting they weren't thinking"},{"startTime":948.016,"endTime":950.25,"body":"about the working capital needs of the business so"},{"startTime":950.683,"endTime":951.4499999999999,"body":"so that's the"},{"startTime":951.4499999999999,"endTime":953.8159999999999,"body":"that's the first failure mode and you know that"},{"startTime":953.8159999999999,"endTime":956.4159999999999,"body":"and that's one that we it's it's preventable"},{"startTime":956.8829999999999,"endTime":960.2829999999999,"body":"you know but not if you don't have the right resources"},{"startTime":960.2829999999999,"endTime":963.8159999999999,"body":"around you and by the way like your bookkeeper is often"},{"startTime":963.8159999999999,"endTime":964.65,"body":"not thinking"},{"startTime":964.65,"endTime":966.8159999999999,"body":"about this or even if they are thinking about it"},{"startTime":967.516,"endTime":969.516,"body":"no they just may not have the sort of career"},{"startTime":969.516,"endTime":972.016,"body":"confidence to get in your face and tell you totally"},{"startTime":972.016,"endTime":973.216,"body":"right so"},{"startTime":973.216,"endTime":976.016,"body":"you know put people around you that will you know"},{"startTime":976.683,"endTime":979.4499999999999,"body":"have the hard conversation I think the middle failure"},{"startTime":979.4499999999999,"endTime":982.216,"body":"mode is a little bit different and this it's it relates"},{"startTime":982.216,"endTime":983.9159999999999,"body":"to what we were talking about before with margin"},{"startTime":983.9159999999999,"endTime":986.616,"body":"so you know you brought that up and I think it's a good point like"},{"startTime":986.8159999999999,"endTime":989.3499999999999,"body":"this is more about focus and"},{"startTime":989.4499999999999,"endTime":993.8499999999999,"body":"channel discipline product category like"},{"startTime":994.216,"endTime":997.583,"body":"I'll ask you so would you rather have"},{"startTime":997.8499999999999,"endTime":999.9499999999999,"body":"a 20 million dollar a year business"},{"startTime":999.9499999999999,"endTime":1003.25,"body":"with a single product in a single channel"},{"startTime":1003.55,"endTime":1007.25,"body":"or a 30 million dollar a year business with"},{"startTime":1007.2829999999999,"endTime":1011.3829999999999,"body":"a dozen products in natural grocery"},{"startTime":1011.75,"endTime":1016.9499999999999,"body":"club and Shopify like 30 million or 20 million"},{"startTime":1017.983,"endTime":1019.983,"body":"skew cause it's a lot easier to manage"},{"startTime":1020.083,"endTime":1021.4499999999999,"body":"a lot less inventory risk"},{"startTime":1021.4499999999999,"endTime":1023.716,"body":"like you're not you're inevitably not gonna be sitting on"},{"startTime":1023.8499999999999,"endTime":1026.183,"body":"one skew that's selling slower than you thought"},{"startTime":1026.483,"endTime":1029.2160000000001,"body":"well you also that I think that's the right instinct"},{"startTime":1029.2160000000001,"endTime":1030.35,"body":"and this starts to get into"},{"startTime":1030.35,"endTime":1031.783,"body":"another piece of it which is sort of"},{"startTime":1031.783,"endTime":1033.183,"body":"what do what do you want"},{"startTime":1033.85,"endTime":1034.95,"body":"or what do you and I want"},{"startTime":1034.95,"endTime":1037.75,"body":"like what do our investors want what is the cap table"},{"startTime":1037.883,"endTime":1039.883,"body":"want twenty million dollar business"},{"startTime":1039.883,"endTime":1043.25,"body":"with a single product in a single channel is beautiful"},{"startTime":1043.25,"endTime":1045.95,"body":"it is and for the reasons you mentioned it's simple"},{"startTime":1045.95,"endTime":1047.983,"body":"and it's like that"},{"startTime":1048.55,"endTime":1051.283,"body":"it is um it's way more efficient"},{"startTime":1051.283,"endTime":1053.1499999999999,"body":"it's way more capital efficient"},{"startTime":1053.283,"endTime":1055.35,"body":"and at least as it relates to sort of working"},{"startTime":1055.35,"endTime":1058.55,"body":"capital failure mode like every time you expand"},{"startTime":1058.883,"endTime":1060.85,"body":"your product you've got to get"},{"startTime":1060.85,"endTime":1064.316,"body":"you know minimum order quantities for inventory"},{"startTime":1064.383,"endTime":1067.116,"body":"you've got to load up a channel yep"},{"startTime":1067.283,"endTime":1069.983,"body":"you know you've got to load up the distribution centers"},{"startTime":1069.983,"endTime":1072.616,"body":"and then you know you've got a bunch of receivables"},{"startTime":1072.616,"endTime":1075.05,"body":"and then you're ramping up"},{"startTime":1075.416,"endTime":1077.05,"body":"with the distribution in those new channels"},{"startTime":1077.05,"endTime":1079.45,"body":"and so what are you you're doing a ton of trade"},{"startTime":1079.5829999999999,"endTime":1081.5829999999999,"body":"spending so every"},{"startTime":1081.5829999999999,"endTime":1083.85,"body":"every invoice for a dollar actually"},{"startTime":1083.85,"endTime":1085.45,"body":"you know comes back with 50"},{"startTime":1085.45,"endTime":1088.25,"body":"cents on it because of all the trade deductions like"},{"startTime":1088.25,"endTime":1089.783,"body":"it's horrible for working"},{"startTime":1089.783,"endTime":1092.283,"body":"capital and and again like people just aren't"},{"startTime":1092.6499999999999,"endTime":1094.0829999999999,"body":"a lot of times they aren't thinking"},{"startTime":1094.0829999999999,"endTime":1096.983,"body":"about it and you know even if they are thinking"},{"startTime":1096.983,"endTime":1100.0829999999999,"body":"about it like some investor gives you"},{"startTime":1100.0829999999999,"endTime":1102.683,"body":"you know five million bucks to go expand your business"},{"startTime":1102.683,"endTime":1103.5829999999999,"body":"and"},{"startTime":1104.25,"endTime":1107.6499999999999,"body":"you know you get out there and start doing it if you underperform in any one of those"},{"startTime":1107.6499999999999,"endTime":1109.85,"body":"four areas"},{"startTime":1110.416,"endTime":1113.483,"body":"you know you might have several million dollars"},{"startTime":1113.483,"endTime":1114.45,"body":"in working capital"},{"startTime":1114.45,"endTime":1117.0829999999999,"body":"tied up in the in the channel and then one of them maybe doesn't"},{"startTime":1117.0829999999999,"endTime":1120.25,"body":"work and it's like okay 30 million"},{"startTime":1120.883,"endTime":1125.05,"body":"you know in across the higher risk factors in that"},{"startTime":1125.05,"endTime":1126.25,"body":"in that bigger business"},{"startTime":1126.25,"endTime":1128.883,"body":"just it creates a lot more ways to fail"},{"startTime":1128.95,"endTime":1132.483,"body":"and by the way you had to take a bunch of dilution to get that extra capital"},{"startTime":1132.716,"endTime":1136.85,"body":"true so like this you know the value of the equity"},{"startTime":1136.85,"endTime":1139.05,"body":"that you have in that 20 million dollar business"},{"startTime":1139.05,"endTime":1142.05,"body":"that hasn't had the dilution of a fundraise versus"},{"startTime":1142.05,"endTime":1143.216,"body":"the value of the equity"},{"startTime":1143.216,"endTime":1145.1499999999999,"body":"that you have in that 30 million dollar business"},{"startTime":1145.1499999999999,"endTime":1148.05,"body":"that had to take dilution like you know you're either"},{"startTime":1148.05,"endTime":1150.683,"body":"average or maybe slightly above average in a"},{"startTime":1150.683,"endTime":1151.683,"body":"in a couple channels"},{"startTime":1151.683,"endTime":1154.783,"body":"maybe not all of them or you're killing it in one like"},{"startTime":1154.95,"endTime":1157.316,"body":"stay focused you know what I mean yeah"},{"startTime":1158.183,"endTime":1159.883,"body":"when for let's just say"},{"startTime":1160.0829999999999,"endTime":1160.95,"body":"it's a two part question I think"},{"startTime":1160.95,"endTime":1162.483,"body":"for brands that are sitting on"},{"startTime":1162.75,"endTime":1163.75,"body":"you know they've got a brand"},{"startTime":1163.75,"endTime":1165.383,"body":"that you know the revenue is growing"},{"startTime":1165.416,"endTime":1168.0159999999998,"body":"the growth is looking good but like cash position is getting"},{"startTime":1169.05,"endTime":1171.45,"body":"what's like I don't know maybe just call out like two or"},{"startTime":1171.45,"endTime":1172.316,"body":"one to three like"},{"startTime":1172.316,"endTime":1174.116,"body":"top level things that's like they should"},{"startTime":1174.116,"endTime":1175.45,"body":"focus on that could have the biggest"},{"startTime":1175.45,"endTime":1177.483,"body":"impact in terms of getting them in a in a"},{"startTime":1177.55,"endTime":1179.25,"body":"better position whether this"},{"startTime":1179.25,"endTime":1180.95,"body":"second part is related or not I'm"},{"startTime":1182.1499999999999,"endTime":1184.25,"body":"to take off you know inventory or"},{"startTime":1187.183,"endTime":1189.683,"body":"yeah gotcha okay so let me"},{"startTime":1189.683,"endTime":1192.25,"body":"let me hit the the first part first so like perfect"},{"startTime":1192.25,"endTime":1193.883,"body":"if they're not related you can separate them"},{"startTime":1193.883,"endTime":1196.783,"body":"well they yeah they're definitely related but it's"},{"startTime":1197.05,"endTime":1198.883,"body":"there's some complexity in it"},{"startTime":1198.883,"endTime":1201.683,"body":"but I I think I can unpack this so like"},{"startTime":1202.55,"endTime":1206.1499999999999,"body":"you know when you're running low on cash obviously"},{"startTime":1206.1499999999999,"endTime":1207.45,"body":"this depends on your runway"},{"startTime":1207.45,"endTime":1210.116,"body":"so it depends on your runway and sort of your"},{"startTime":1210.616,"endTime":1213.0829999999999,"body":"like how resilient your business is"},{"startTime":1213.416,"endTime":1214.85,"body":"you know are you within"},{"startTime":1214.85,"endTime":1219.5829999999999,"body":"spitting distance of profitability is your are you um"},{"startTime":1219.5829999999999,"endTime":1220.75,"body":"I forget who"},{"startTime":1220.75,"endTime":1222.1499999999999,"body":"coined this thing but like"},{"startTime":1222.1499999999999,"endTime":1224.783,"body":"are you default alive or default dead"},{"startTime":1225.0159999999998,"endTime":1227.1499999999999,"body":"oh I think it was day I think it was sax yeah"},{"startTime":1227.1499999999999,"endTime":1230.483,"body":"yeah that sounds like a like sounds like a sax thing um"},{"startTime":1230.75,"endTime":1234.45,"body":"so you know if if if you can get to"},{"startTime":1234.45,"endTime":1237.35,"body":"some position of stable cash flow"},{"startTime":1237.35,"endTime":1239.95,"body":"and that buys you time to go execute even if your"},{"startTime":1239.95,"endTime":1243.35,"body":"revenue has to decrease a little bit right so"},{"startTime":1243.35,"endTime":1246.183,"body":"if you're spending a bunch of money on growth I mean this is sort of the lever"},{"startTime":1246.183,"endTime":1247.45,"body":"that a lot of companies have pulled"},{"startTime":1247.45,"endTime":1248.55,"body":"over the last couple years"},{"startTime":1248.55,"endTime":1250.616,"body":"like you're spending a ton of money on growth and you're doing it"},{"startTime":1250.616,"endTime":1251.5829999999999,"body":"inefficiently"},{"startTime":1251.816,"endTime":1254.283,"body":"and and maybe some of that was subsidized by"},{"startTime":1254.283,"endTime":1256.216,"body":"you know investors that that you know"},{"startTime":1256.216,"endTime":1258.75,"body":"back the truck up and put a bunch of money in your business"},{"startTime":1260.483,"endTime":1262.6499999999999,"body":"I've seen extraordinary things from companies"},{"startTime":1262.6499999999999,"endTime":1265.283,"body":"that just have like unhealthy inefficient"},{"startTime":1265.283,"endTime":1267.216,"body":"marketing spending like becoming"},{"startTime":1267.216,"endTime":1269.183,"body":"efficient because they just didn't have a choice"},{"startTime":1269.183,"endTime":1271.416,"body":"it's amazing what you can do when your back's"},{"startTime":1271.416,"endTime":1275.883,"body":"against the wall and sometimes it just makes you wonder like why don't I just keep my back mostly"},{"startTime":1275.883,"endTime":1278.0829999999999,"body":"against the wall all the time cause it's just"},{"startTime":1278.0829999999999,"endTime":1280.1499999999999,"body":"it is so much more consistently"},{"startTime":1281.0159999999998,"endTime":1283.816,"body":"you know efficient so you know obviously look if"},{"startTime":1283.816,"endTime":1286.283,"body":"if you can get to profitability get to profitability"},{"startTime":1286.6499999999999,"endTime":1290.616,"body":"there's all sorts of things that we could talk about that would probably get me in trouble in terms of you know"},{"startTime":1290.616,"endTime":1292.616,"body":"how do you get your vendor your"},{"startTime":1292.616,"endTime":1294.35,"body":"your vendors to be patient"},{"startTime":1294.5829999999999,"endTime":1296.0829999999999,"body":"because for a lot of companies"},{"startTime":1296.0829999999999,"endTime":1298.35,"body":"you know the the cost of goods sold is the"},{"startTime":1298.35,"endTime":1301.183,"body":"single business biggest expense you know"},{"startTime":1301.183,"endTime":1303.683,"body":"besides payroll or sometimes you know it's even"},{"startTime":1303.683,"endTime":1305.216,"body":"bigger than payroll and so"},{"startTime":1305.216,"endTime":1307.0829999999999,"body":"I've definitely seen people get creative"},{"startTime":1307.0829999999999,"endTime":1309.25,"body":"in terms of going back to"},{"startTime":1309.783,"endTime":1312.783,"body":"vendors like uh you know their manufacturers"},{"startTime":1312.783,"endTime":1315.05,"body":"and and being transparent with them"},{"startTime":1315.05,"endTime":1315.983,"body":"you know about the challenge"},{"startTime":1315.983,"endTime":1320.183,"body":"like if if you can see a pathway to get to a fundraise"},{"startTime":1320.183,"endTime":1322.0159999999998,"body":"you know you might be able to just negotiate"},{"startTime":1322.0159999999998,"endTime":1324.0829999999999,"body":"something with them maybe they'll take some equity"},{"startTime":1324.383,"endTime":1325.916,"body":"cause they're already investors"},{"startTime":1326.05,"endTime":1328.416,"body":"right they're they're just not getting upside like"},{"startTime":1328.416,"endTime":1330.35,"body":"right their investment is basically"},{"startTime":1330.416,"endTime":1332.85,"body":"the receivables that they're taking on"},{"startTime":1332.983,"endTime":1334.683,"body":"you know what I mean so it's like they're"},{"startTime":1334.683,"endTime":1337.0829999999999,"body":"stakeholders in your business and I've seen people"},{"startTime":1337.0829999999999,"endTime":1338.183,"body":"make really good partners"},{"startTime":1338.183,"endTime":1340.883,"body":"out of them but you gotta be transparent like you know"},{"startTime":1340.883,"endTime":1343.716,"body":"it's just high integrity approach usually"},{"startTime":1343.983,"endTime":1348.383,"body":"usually wins there on the on the debt like I think"},{"startTime":1348.616,"endTime":1351.383,"body":"the right answer on debt is almost always"},{"startTime":1351.383,"endTime":1352.95,"body":"debt and equity"},{"startTime":1353.1499999999999,"endTime":1356.283,"body":"because the reality is like a a healthy business hasn't"},{"startTime":1356.283,"endTime":1357.5829999999999,"body":"has a nice ratio"},{"startTime":1357.5829999999999,"endTime":1359.883,"body":"of these things like there is no substitute"},{"startTime":1359.883,"endTime":1361.45,"body":"for permanent capital"},{"startTime":1361.616,"endTime":1364.75,"body":"and operating losses almost always"},{"startTime":1365.05,"endTime":1368.416,"body":"need to be funded almost entirely with permanent"},{"startTime":1368.416,"endTime":1371.216,"body":"capital which just means equity it could be you know it"},{"startTime":1371.216,"endTime":1372.0829999999999,"body":"a safe note"},{"startTime":1372.0829999999999,"endTime":1374.783,"body":"convertible notes like all fall into that sort of"},{"startTime":1374.783,"endTime":1376.6499999999999,"body":"permanent capital bucket"},{"startTime":1376.6499999999999,"endTime":1379.0829999999999,"body":"you just need a certain amount to"},{"startTime":1380.0159999999998,"endTime":1383.75,"body":"it's like the lifeblood of the business basically"},{"startTime":1384.1499999999999,"endTime":1386.1499999999999,"body":"but then it's super healthy to have"},{"startTime":1386.1499999999999,"endTime":1389.1499999999999,"body":"some debt on top of that and the right ratio"},{"startTime":1389.183,"endTime":1391.6499999999999,"body":"will be different for"},{"startTime":1391.6499999999999,"endTime":1392.883,"body":"you know for each business"},{"startTime":1392.883,"endTime":1395.1499999999999,"body":"like in a really heavily working capital"},{"startTime":1395.45,"endTime":1396.45,"body":"dependent business"},{"startTime":1396.45,"endTime":1398.783,"body":"that you know has a fair amount of equity"},{"startTime":1400.45,"endTime":1402.183,"body":"80% of receivables"},{"startTime":1402.216,"endTime":1405.983,"body":"and and you know maybe 40 or 50% of inventory"},{"startTime":1406.35,"endTime":1409.6499999999999,"body":"um you know can often be um"},{"startTime":1409.95,"endTime":1412.883,"body":"leveraged into you know asset based lending"},{"startTime":1412.983,"endTime":1415.6499999999999,"body":"and sometimes it makes sense to layer on a little bit of"},{"startTime":1415.6499999999999,"endTime":1418.316,"body":"venture debt on top of that depending on a situation"},{"startTime":1418.783,"endTime":1419.483,"body":"generally speaking"},{"startTime":1419.483,"endTime":1420.783,"body":"you should you should think of"},{"startTime":1420.783,"endTime":1422.6499999999999,"body":"of this as like a healthy"},{"startTime":1422.85,"endTime":1426.5159999999998,"body":"ratio that you know will evolve"},{"startTime":1426.75,"endTime":1428.75,"body":"over time like across stages"},{"startTime":1429.35,"endTime":1430.95,"body":"and at a certain point you know you can"},{"startTime":1430.95,"endTime":1432.983,"body":"you can do a ton of debt there like private"},{"startTime":1432.983,"endTime":1434.0829999999999,"body":"private debt lenders"},{"startTime":1434.0829999999999,"endTime":1435.6499999999999,"body":"at your hundred million in revenue"},{"startTime":1436.483,"endTime":1437.35,"body":"you know probably"},{"startTime":1437.35,"endTime":1439.45,"body":"profitable at that point but you just need to fund"},{"startTime":1439.45,"endTime":1442.783,"body":"working capital right all sorts of options"},{"startTime":1442.783,"endTime":1443.283,"body":"on the table at"},{"startTime":1443.283,"endTime":1444.883,"body":"that point but I think it's it's obviously"},{"startTime":1444.883,"endTime":1446.75,"body":"trickier for the smaller businesses"},{"startTime":1446.75,"endTime":1448.416,"body":"especially the ones that aren't within spitting"},{"startTime":1448.416,"endTime":1450.883,"body":"distance of profitability yeah"},{"startTime":1451.45,"endTime":1452.183,"body":"it's it's totally"},{"startTime":1452.183,"endTime":1453.0829999999999,"body":"funny it's kind of off topic"},{"startTime":1453.0829999999999,"endTime":1454.25,"body":"but not to throw us off but you"},{"startTime":1454.25,"endTime":1456.483,"body":"you talked about why don't businesses just"},{"startTime":1456.616,"endTime":1458.816,"body":"always operate like their back is against the wall"},{"startTime":1458.816,"endTime":1463.6499999999999,"body":"and I think it was I can't remember which of his companies I'm pretty sure it was Tesla and I think it was their president or"},{"startTime":1502.8429999999998,"endTime":1505.143,"body":"CEO or something it would talk about in some story"},{"startTime":1505.143,"endTime":1506.21,"body":"that even at their level"},{"startTime":1506.21,"endTime":1507.4759999999999,"body":"where they were doing you know"},{"startTime":1507.81,"endTime":1511.01,"body":"tens or hundreds of billions of dollars of revenue Elon"},{"startTime":1511.01,"endTime":1512.243,"body":"still like forced the company"},{"startTime":1514.31,"endTime":1516.71,"body":"of cash in the bank at all times so you like forced"},{"startTime":1516.71,"endTime":1518.676,"body":"the company everyone on the team"},{"startTime":1518.676,"endTime":1520.7759999999998,"body":"even at that size to have that mindset of we actually"},{"startTime":1520.7759999999998,"endTime":1521.676,"body":"our back always is"},{"startTime":1521.676,"endTime":1523.4099999999999,"body":"against the wall which is I thought was crazy"},{"startTime":1523.4099999999999,"endTime":1524.21,"body":"at that size"},{"startTime":1525.4099999999999,"endTime":1526.9099999999999,"body":"yeah I mean there's there's"},{"startTime":1526.9099999999999,"endTime":1530.2759999999998,"body":"just nothing like not having a choice to like you know"},{"startTime":1530.2759999999998,"endTime":1532.4099999999999,"body":"force you to figure out how to be efficient"},{"startTime":1532.576,"endTime":1533.4099999999999,"body":"right totally"},{"startTime":1533.4099999999999,"endTime":1536.176,"body":"and it's interesting too cause I like most of our"},{"startTime":1536.576,"endTime":1539.21,"body":"clients are pretty well capitalized"},{"startTime":1539.21,"endTime":1541.4759999999999,"body":"but there's a decent number of them that"},{"startTime":1541.4759999999999,"endTime":1544.2759999999998,"body":"that bootstrapped or just raised a really small"},{"startTime":1544.81,"endTime":1549.81,"body":"amount of money and like I've seen some unbelievably"},{"startTime":1550.243,"endTime":1554.076,"body":"good efficiency out of those businesses and in"},{"startTime":1554.4099999999999,"endTime":1557.376,"body":"I think in probably most of those cases the founders"},{"startTime":1557.376,"endTime":1559.676,"body":"would tell you that like they just didn't"},{"startTime":1559.676,"endTime":1561.7759999999998,"body":"it never occurred to them to"},{"startTime":1562.2759999999998,"endTime":1565.376,"body":"that they could spend a bunch of money to sort of buy the revenue"},{"startTime":1565.7759999999998,"endTime":1567.71,"body":"right they just they just had to be clever"},{"startTime":1567.71,"endTime":1570.61,"body":"they had to be creative cause they they just they"},{"startTime":1570.643,"endTime":1572.81,"body":"didn't know people that were rich or"},{"startTime":1572.876,"endTime":1574.71,"body":"totally I mean it's and it's"},{"startTime":1574.8429999999998,"endTime":1577.9099999999999,"body":"you know it does I mean it gets to your point um"},{"startTime":1578.51,"endTime":1580.576,"body":"like I think keeping"},{"startTime":1580.576,"endTime":1584.743,"body":"companies a little bit hungry is usually a good idea"},{"startTime":1584.743,"endTime":1587.143,"body":"let's talk about this thing called the Billion Dollar"},{"startTime":1587.443,"endTime":1588.3429999999998,"body":"Beverage Blueprint"},{"startTime":1588.3429999999998,"endTime":1589.4759999999999,"body":"for a second I think you published"},{"startTime":1589.4759999999999,"endTime":1590.176,"body":"this piece on this like"},{"startTime":1592.576,"endTime":1594.243,"body":"Liquid Death have all kind of had in common"},{"startTime":1594.243,"endTime":1595.31,"body":"from a financial"},{"startTime":1596.2759999999998,"endTime":1598.7759999999998,"body":"your standpoint and it seemed kind of like the"},{"startTime":1599.143,"endTime":1600.743,"body":"I don't know if you want to call it the punchline"},{"startTime":1600.743,"endTime":1603.143,"body":"kind of seemed to be the all three transition from a"},{"startTime":1604.643,"endTime":1606.71,"body":"built trade spend systems at similar scale"},{"startTime":1606.8429999999998,"endTime":1609.21,"body":"hired finance teams a kind of predictable milestones"},{"startTime":1609.21,"endTime":1610.9099999999999,"body":"I'm not exactly sure what it is but"},{"startTime":1610.9099999999999,"endTime":1613.11,"body":"yeah can you kind of walk me through the"},{"startTime":1613.576,"endTime":1614.9759999999999,"body":"the blueprint of kind of the patterns"},{"startTime":1617.176,"endTime":1619.243,"body":"yeah sure I I think there's a couple components"},{"startTime":1619.243,"endTime":1621.943,"body":"here I think the to to give all the companies"},{"startTime":1622.076,"endTime":1624.943,"body":"credit and just sort of state the obvious um"},{"startTime":1626.076,"endTime":1629.8429999999998,"body":"like the product is the business market timing"},{"startTime":1629.876,"endTime":1633.376,"body":"reading the tea leaves and the trends and"},{"startTime":1633.643,"endTime":1638.01,"body":"you know certainly for Ollie Pop and Poppy"},{"startTime":1638.443,"endTime":1641.376,"body":"it was I would say that it's sort of less"},{"startTime":1641.376,"endTime":1645.143,"body":"like prebiotics or gut health and more just healthy"},{"startTime":1645.51,"endTime":1648.943,"body":"soda I mean that was the thing I think that the"},{"startTime":1649.043,"endTime":1650.51,"body":"you know the investors and"},{"startTime":1650.51,"endTime":1652.143,"body":"and you know probably even like Ben and David"},{"startTime":1652.143,"endTime":1654.676,"body":"at at ollypop were were most"},{"startTime":1654.676,"endTime":1656.71,"body":"excited about like yeah great gut health"},{"startTime":1656.71,"endTime":1660.2759999999998,"body":"you know adds this functional benefit to it but"},{"startTime":1660.7759999999998,"endTime":1662.876,"body":"you know in this case like"},{"startTime":1663.8429999999998,"endTime":1667.143,"body":"I don't know that those would be the"},{"startTime":1667.243,"endTime":1668.643,"body":"you know the market size"},{"startTime":1668.643,"endTime":1671.21,"body":"opportunities that they are if it wasn't"},{"startTime":1671.243,"endTime":1672.443,"body":"really appealing to somebody"},{"startTime":1672.443,"endTime":1673.9759999999999,"body":"that doesn't care that much about gut"},{"startTime":1673.9759999999999,"endTime":1677.576,"body":"health like it just tastes really good and yeah it does"},{"startTime":1677.576,"endTime":1680.543,"body":"you know it's not it's not full of sugar and so"},{"startTime":1680.676,"endTime":1683.2759999999998,"body":"the you know between Olly Pop and Poppy I think it was"},{"startTime":1683.2759999999998,"endTime":1685.543,"body":"it was a little different like"},{"startTime":1685.543,"endTime":1687.8429999999998,"body":"you know Ben and David at Olly Pop had literally"},{"startTime":1687.8429999999998,"endTime":1692.51,"body":"built a similar business before so and and you know"},{"startTime":1692.51,"endTime":1694.3429999999998,"body":"I don't think it was sort of a great outcome"},{"startTime":1694.3429999999998,"endTime":1697.4759999999999,"body":"for them so by the way it's super remarkable that that"},{"startTime":1697.71,"endTime":1699.2759999999998,"body":"those two decided to work together"},{"startTime":1699.2759999999998,"endTime":1701.8429999999998,"body":"again cause like that never happens like I don't"},{"startTime":1701.8429999999998,"endTime":1703.31,"body":"I don't know if you've had a like a business"},{"startTime":1703.31,"endTime":1706.043,"body":"with a co founder but like when my second company went"},{"startTime":1706.043,"endTime":1709.443,"body":"sideways it was like it's just it's really tough like"},{"startTime":1709.443,"endTime":1712.31,"body":"you know me and me and Tim are"},{"startTime":1712.31,"endTime":1715.443,"body":"really good friends today but like it's tough to stay together and let"},{"startTime":1715.443,"endTime":1716.9759999999999,"body":"alone to decide to start"},{"startTime":1716.9759999999999,"endTime":1719.176,"body":"you know within a couple years of similar business like"},{"startTime":1719.376,"endTime":1721.4759999999999,"body":"yeah I think you know that"},{"startTime":1721.676,"endTime":1723.243,"body":"they really knew what they wanted to build"},{"startTime":1723.243,"endTime":1725.4099999999999,"body":"they had real clarity around it um"},{"startTime":1725.71,"endTime":1729.2759999999998,"body":"you know in the case of of um Poppy"},{"startTime":1730.51,"endTime":1733.3429999999998,"body":"founders had started a it was a different business"},{"startTime":1733.943,"endTime":1736.31,"body":"you know it was a like a vinegar a like"},{"startTime":1736.31,"endTime":1736.9759999999999,"body":"apple cider vinegar yeah I remember"},{"startTime":1736.9759999999999,"endTime":1738.643,"body":"they went on Shark Tank it was like a"},{"startTime":1738.8429999999998,"endTime":1741.643,"body":"mother's something or yeah yeah yeah mother's exactly"},{"startTime":1741.676,"endTime":1744.443,"body":"yeah yeah and then yeah Rohan invested and like"},{"startTime":1744.576,"endTime":1747.676,"body":"you know they made a decision to sort of pivot"},{"startTime":1747.676,"endTime":1750.9099999999999,"body":"into the category and like and that was a"},{"startTime":1750.9099999999999,"endTime":1752.376,"body":"remarkably good decision"},{"startTime":1752.376,"endTime":1754.743,"body":"and you know for Liquid Death that's obviously"},{"startTime":1754.743,"endTime":1757.376,"body":"that is a just phenomenal brand and"},{"startTime":1757.376,"endTime":1760.643,"body":"so much just crazy creativity but it's also"},{"startTime":1760.71,"endTime":1764.7759999999998,"body":"it's just it's a giant market right and so I think"},{"startTime":1764.876,"endTime":1767.4759999999999,"body":"the the thing there about sort of like"},{"startTime":1767.4759999999999,"endTime":1769.743,"body":"you know market size and market timing"},{"startTime":1770.643,"endTime":1772.443,"body":"you know you wanna get a billion dollar outcome"},{"startTime":1772.443,"endTime":1774.743,"body":"you like you gotta pick a billion dollar market"},{"startTime":1774.743,"endTime":1776.4099999999999,"body":"and in the case of"},{"startTime":1776.876,"endTime":1779.81,"body":"prebiotic soda not a billion dollar market"},{"startTime":1779.8429999999998,"endTime":1782.2759999999998,"body":"right like that's it was probably a"},{"startTime":1782.443,"endTime":1784.31,"body":"five million dollar market"},{"startTime":1784.31,"endTime":1786.743,"body":"maybe not even that when they started these businesses"},{"startTime":1786.9099999999999,"endTime":1789.143,"body":"but you know that wasn't it like the market"},{"startTime":1789.143,"endTime":1790.943,"body":"I would say is just healthy"},{"startTime":1790.943,"endTime":1792.81,"body":"beverages it's healthy soda"},{"startTime":1793.11,"endTime":1794.7759999999998,"body":"so I think that was the first thing and"},{"startTime":1794.7759999999998,"endTime":1798.31,"body":"it's probably worth saying that like yeah you need to be properly capitalized"},{"startTime":1798.31,"endTime":1800.943,"body":"and you know the least of it is just getting"},{"startTime":1800.943,"endTime":1804.21,"body":"some level of of you know professional financial help"},{"startTime":1804.443,"endTime":1808.4759999999999,"body":"in there and and um you know we worked with both um"},{"startTime":1808.8429999999998,"endTime":1809.376,"body":"Ollie Pop"},{"startTime":1809.376,"endTime":1812.176,"body":"and Poppy and and so we don't we don't have anybody"},{"startTime":1812.176,"endTime":1814.31,"body":"on cash basis financials like cause"},{"startTime":1814.31,"endTime":1818.043,"body":"you just you can't sort of do the strategic"},{"startTime":1818.043,"endTime":1819.076,"body":"piece of the work that"},{"startTime":1819.076,"endTime":1821.7759999999998,"body":"you know we're really meant to do without clean data so"},{"startTime":1821.7759999999998,"endTime":1823.676,"body":"at least getting them on scalable systems"},{"startTime":1823.676,"endTime":1825.076,"body":"that are stage appropriate"},{"startTime":1825.076,"endTime":1826.8429999999998,"body":"is I think the important piece there"},{"startTime":1826.8429999999998,"endTime":1829.143,"body":"the other thing I would say is just like competition"},{"startTime":1829.143,"endTime":1830.7759999999998,"body":"as advantage"},{"startTime":1831.176,"endTime":1834.076,"body":"is probably worth calling out and especially in this case because"},{"startTime":1834.076,"endTime":1837.576,"body":"lolipop and and Poppy are direct competitors like"},{"startTime":1838.4759999999999,"endTime":1841.243,"body":"and as I'm sure has been said before like you know"},{"startTime":1841.243,"endTime":1843.31,"body":"nothing like a great rivalry to make"},{"startTime":1843.31,"endTime":1847.743,"body":"both companies better whether it's like pro sports or"},{"startTime":1847.743,"endTime":1850.11,"body":"I don't know even like you think about like Federer"},{"startTime":1850.11,"endTime":1853.876,"body":"and Nadal just like pushing each other constantly like"},{"startTime":1853.876,"endTime":1856.3429999999998,"body":"we could see that sort of between the two businesses"},{"startTime":1856.3429999999998,"endTime":1858.9759999999999,"body":"like there's a super healthy rivalry but like"},{"startTime":1859.11,"endTime":1860.9759999999999,"body":"the other piece of it is is"},{"startTime":1861.176,"endTime":1864.043,"body":"when customers walk into the store"},{"startTime":1864.4759999999999,"endTime":1867.243,"body":"it's not just one brand it's like an entire wall"},{"startTime":1867.243,"endTime":1869.7759999999998,"body":"you know or just like the big stack in the cooler"},{"startTime":1869.7759999999998,"endTime":1872.443,"body":"and you know now it's like wait what what are all these"},{"startTime":1872.676,"endTime":1874.643,"body":"probiotics it just it really helped"},{"startTime":1874.643,"endTime":1876.9759999999999,"body":"I think speed adoption I think each company"},{"startTime":1876.9759999999999,"endTime":1879.4759999999999,"body":"maybe without knowing it really pushed the other"},{"startTime":1879.71,"endTime":1881.876,"body":"yeah totally and um"},{"startTime":1881.943,"endTime":1885.51,"body":"and that for sure helped the category and look at it now I mean it's just it's"},{"startTime":1885.51,"endTime":1886.876,"body":"you know it's going nuts and then the"},{"startTime":1886.876,"endTime":1889.243,"body":"the I think the last thing is just financial support"},{"startTime":1889.8429999999998,"endTime":1892.876,"body":"or even you know this this is true of all the"},{"startTime":1892.943,"endTime":1895.443,"body":"operating disciplines like support that can scale"},{"startTime":1895.443,"endTime":1898.076,"body":"like I think the only thing you can be certain of"},{"startTime":1898.3429999999998,"endTime":1900.11,"body":"you know in in getting a company"},{"startTime":1900.11,"endTime":1902.443,"body":"to a unicorn valuation is that you are"},{"startTime":1902.443,"endTime":1905.3429999999998,"body":"you are gonna have to break and rebuild everything"},{"startTime":1905.3429999999998,"endTime":1906.743,"body":"over and over again"},{"startTime":1907.9759999999999,"endTime":1911.2759999999998,"body":"and you know it's hard"},{"startTime":1911.3429999999998,"endTime":1914.643,"body":"you kind of have to build for the stage that you're at"},{"startTime":1914.743,"endTime":1917.51,"body":"sure like in most cases you can't overbuild"},{"startTime":1917.51,"endTime":1920.743,"body":"or even if you could that would be a super bad idea"},{"startTime":1921.01,"endTime":1924.4759999999999,"body":"but it it just means that you have to build with"},{"startTime":1924.4759999999999,"endTime":1925.176,"body":"flexibility"},{"startTime":1925.176,"endTime":1927.3429999999998,"body":"in mind like you've got to know that hey the"},{"startTime":1927.3429999999998,"endTime":1929.243,"body":"the person that gets me to this stage"},{"startTime":1929.376,"endTime":1931.9099999999999,"body":"is not gonna get me to the next stage and and you"},{"startTime":1931.9099999999999,"endTime":1934.743,"body":"you just gotta be willing to do that honestly that's"},{"startTime":1934.743,"endTime":1935.7759999999998,"body":"that's an area where"},{"startTime":1935.7759999999998,"endTime":1938.176,"body":"you know having a partner that can sort of provide"},{"startTime":1938.176,"endTime":1940.043,"body":"continuity across the different stages"},{"startTime":1940.043,"endTime":1941.876,"body":"it just gives you a lot of flexibility"},{"startTime":1941.876,"endTime":1943.9759999999999,"body":"and and in each of these cases like"},{"startTime":1943.9759999999999,"endTime":1945.676,"body":"you know almost every company"},{"startTime":1945.676,"endTime":1947.7759999999998,"body":"we work with that's had great"},{"startTime":1947.7759999999998,"endTime":1949.743,"body":"success has gone through a bunch of people"},{"startTime":1950.043,"endTime":1953.3429999999998,"body":"except maybe groons which just did it so fast hahaha"},{"startTime":1954.676,"endTime":1956.81,"body":"that was really like remarkable"},{"startTime":1957.243,"endTime":1959.076,"body":"and but different story but like"},{"startTime":1959.076,"endTime":1961.4759999999999,"body":"you know there's there's some collateral damage"},{"startTime":1961.4759999999999,"endTime":1964.8429999999998,"body":"that comes from you know that level of dynamic"},{"startTime":1964.9099999999999,"endTime":1967.4099999999999,"body":"growth and you know the nice thing about"},{"startTime":1967.4759999999999,"endTime":1969.9759999999999,"body":"a hybrid team or a you know a"},{"startTime":1970.31,"endTime":1973.376,"body":"a team that's like a combination of W 2+"},{"startTime":1973.7759999999998,"endTime":1975.71,"body":"you know some partnership is that"},{"startTime":1975.71,"endTime":1978.31,"body":"the you know the partners can provide some continuity"},{"startTime":1978.31,"endTime":1978.8429999999998,"body":"through the"},{"startTime":1978.8429999999998,"endTime":1982.4099999999999,"body":"the change which in most cases is inevitable yeah"},{"startTime":1985.71,"endTime":1986.9759999999999,"body":"I think you told me when we chatted"},{"startTime":1986.9759999999999,"endTime":1989.61,"body":"a few weeks ago you told me that typically"},{"startTime":1989.61,"endTime":1990.9759999999999,"body":"those brands will go through"},{"startTime":1990.9759999999999,"endTime":1994.01,"body":"four different heads of finance kind of along the way"},{"startTime":1994.11,"endTime":1997.943,"body":"um what changes about that finance job where"},{"startTime":1997.943,"endTime":1999.11,"body":"different people different skill sets"},{"startTime":1999.11,"endTime":2001.21,"body":"need to come in it let's just say at that you know"},{"startTime":2001.543,"endTime":2004.4759999999999,"body":"I don't know two to 25 million and then you know"},{"startTime":2004.4759999999999,"endTime":2006.743,"body":"up to the next is like you know 25 to 50"},{"startTime":2006.743,"endTime":2008.7759999999998,"body":"50 to hundred and then you know"},{"startTime":2009.01,"endTime":2010.71,"body":"getting that larger stage hundred million"},{"startTime":2010.71,"endTime":2011.9099999999999,"body":"hundred million plus"},{"startTime":2011.943,"endTime":2015.2759999999998,"body":"yeah so that's a tricky one I mean there's"},{"startTime":2015.943,"endTime":2017.443,"body":"there's sort of um"},{"startTime":2018.31,"endTime":2022.676,"body":"I think there are are really four distinct stages"},{"startTime":2022.71,"endTime":2027.11,"body":"let's call it between zero and and 100 million and um"},{"startTime":2027.11,"endTime":2029.51,"body":"and it's really hard to skip one like you"},{"startTime":2029.51,"endTime":2031.9099999999999,"body":"kind of have to go through all of them"},{"startTime":2032.01,"endTime":2034.21,"body":"which is sort of frustrating um"},{"startTime":2034.4099999999999,"endTime":2038.51,"body":"but it kind of it creates this paradox where if you"},{"startTime":2038.81,"endTime":2041.943,"body":"the more you optimize for the stage that you're in"},{"startTime":2041.943,"endTime":2043.7759999999998,"body":"the less capable"},{"startTime":2043.876,"endTime":2047.31,"body":"that person or team is of surviving to the next stage"},{"startTime":2047.3429999999998,"endTime":2050.376,"body":"so and I might break it down with like the first"},{"startTime":2050.376,"endTime":2051.143,"body":"sort of higher"},{"startTime":2051.143,"endTime":2053.976,"body":"the first need let's like call it the earliest"},{"startTime":2054.176,"endTime":2055.743,"body":"sort of zero to 5 million"},{"startTime":2055.743,"endTime":2058.11,"body":"like you said 0 to 2 but I think this happens"},{"startTime":2058.476,"endTime":2060.543,"body":"you know across sort of a pretty broad window"},{"startTime":2060.543,"endTime":2062.243,"body":"like the first hire"},{"startTime":2062.876,"endTime":2064.476,"body":"needs to be a survivor"},{"startTime":2064.476,"endTime":2068.576,"body":"like it just needs to be somebody who can do everything"},{"startTime":2069.11,"endTime":2071.41,"body":"sort of a Swiss Army knife role and look"},{"startTime":2071.41,"endTime":2072.71,"body":"maybe you've got like a bookkeeping"},{"startTime":2072.71,"endTime":2075.91,"body":"firm and you've got a part time CFO and"},{"startTime":2076.076,"endTime":2078.01,"body":"you know a lot of companies are just"},{"startTime":2078.21,"endTime":2079.61,"body":"they're just surviving it"},{"startTime":2079.61,"endTime":2081.61,"body":"right and the reality is like"},{"startTime":2081.61,"endTime":2085.11,"body":"your finances aren't that important"},{"startTime":2085.11,"endTime":2087.3100000000004,"body":"right in that earliest stage like I know they're"},{"startTime":2087.3100000000004,"endTime":2089.51,"body":"probably pretty simple too yeah it's so simple"},{"startTime":2089.51,"endTime":2092.1760000000004,"body":"yeah and I I feel bad saying this because like"},{"startTime":2092.1760000000004,"endTime":2095.3100000000004,"body":"this is supposed to be the thing I care about most in the world but like"},{"startTime":2095.543,"endTime":2097.443,"body":"dude nobody wants to be"},{"startTime":2097.976,"endTime":2101.01,"body":"you know the company with unbelievable"},{"startTime":2101.2760000000003,"endTime":2105.11,"body":"bookkeeping and a mediocre product right"},{"startTime":2105.11,"endTime":2106.7430000000004,"body":"or like not great customers"},{"startTime":2106.7430000000004,"endTime":2107.943,"body":"and honestly the bookkeeping"},{"startTime":2107.943,"endTime":2110.443,"body":"is not gonna get you to the next stage so like"},{"startTime":2110.61,"endTime":2114.376,"body":"you know be cheap and you know don't be irresponsible"},{"startTime":2114.376,"endTime":2117.01,"body":"don't get thrown in jail but like survive"},{"startTime":2117.01,"endTime":2119.01,"body":"right you just get to the next stage so"},{"startTime":2119.0760000000005,"endTime":2121.5760000000005,"body":"that sort of describes the the you know the kind of"},{"startTime":2121.5760000000005,"endTime":2122.7100000000005,"body":"mindset that you need"},{"startTime":2122.7100000000005,"endTime":2125.7100000000005,"body":"if you assume that then the next stage is this sort of traction"},{"startTime":2125.7100000000005,"endTime":2129.1760000000004,"body":"stage so like let's call it 5 to 25 million like"},{"startTime":2129.51,"endTime":2131.1430000000005,"body":"you know it's a lot of breath but"},{"startTime":2131.1430000000005,"endTime":2133.6760000000004,"body":"you know it's clear that you need to professionalize"},{"startTime":2134.01,"endTime":2136.7100000000005,"body":"you know the the finance function and"},{"startTime":2136.7100000000005,"endTime":2138.1430000000005,"body":"and you know what does that mean"},{"startTime":2138.1430000000005,"endTime":2139.9100000000003,"body":"that's like you know it's it's"},{"startTime":2140.4760000000006,"endTime":2141.6100000000006,"body":"cash to a crew"},{"startTime":2141.6100000000006,"endTime":2143.5760000000005,"body":"and it's let's make sure that trade deductions"},{"startTime":2143.5760000000005,"endTime":2144.4760000000006,"body":"like your numbers"},{"startTime":2144.4760000000006,"endTime":2147.01,"body":"just need to be right and they need to be consistent"},{"startTime":2147.01,"endTime":2148.376,"body":"they need to tell a story"},{"startTime":2148.4760000000006,"endTime":2151.3100000000004,"body":"a lot of times the founders"},{"startTime":2151.7430000000004,"endTime":2154.01,"body":"need somebody who can kind of be a translator"},{"startTime":2154.01,"endTime":2157.2430000000004,"body":"like what are the numbers telling us uh huh"},{"startTime":2157.376,"endTime":2157.9760000000006,"body":"you know and"},{"startTime":2157.9760000000006,"endTime":2160.4100000000003,"body":"and what does it mean like what should we do differently"},{"startTime":2160.4100000000003,"endTime":2162.3430000000003,"body":"are we healthy or are we unhealthy"},{"startTime":2162.3430000000003,"endTime":2165.01,"body":"or or you know what are the nuances in there and and"},{"startTime":2165.01,"endTime":2166.7760000000003,"body":"you know you have a lot of Swiss Army"},{"startTime":2167.1430000000005,"endTime":2170.2760000000003,"body":"knife type people in that zone"},{"startTime":2170.9760000000006,"endTime":2172.7100000000005,"body":"and um"},{"startTime":2172.7100000000005,"endTime":2174.1100000000006,"body":"and that's relatively easy to hire"},{"startTime":2174.1100000000006,"endTime":2176.51,"body":"for like there are a lot of sort of finance directors"},{"startTime":2176.51,"endTime":2178.01,"body":"in that zone like"},{"startTime":2178.01,"endTime":2181.2100000000005,"body":"there's some finance vps but they're they're not"},{"startTime":2181.6100000000006,"endTime":2184.876,"body":"like a company that size doesn't really need a VP"},{"startTime":2184.876,"endTime":2187.7100000000005,"body":"and like even if it did need one it's hard to recruit"},{"startTime":2187.7100000000005,"endTime":2190.4760000000006,"body":"great talent because most people that are really vps"},{"startTime":2190.4760000000006,"endTime":2191.2760000000003,"body":"know"},{"startTime":2191.4760000000006,"endTime":2194.9760000000006,"body":"that the job kind of sucks at that stage it's just a"},{"startTime":2194.9760000000006,"endTime":2197.5760000000005,"body":"ton of controller ship so it's like"},{"startTime":2197.5760000000005,"endTime":2199.876,"body":"you know the conundrum in this stage is like"},{"startTime":2199.876,"endTime":2201.4100000000003,"body":"you know maybe you want a VP"},{"startTime":2201.4100000000003,"endTime":2204.4760000000006,"body":"but like the person that's gonna take the job is probably more of a director"},{"startTime":2204.4760000000006,"endTime":2206.51,"body":"right or maybe it's a controller and they get"},{"startTime":2206.5760000000005,"endTime":2208.7430000000004,"body":"sure so you wind up like the failure modes"},{"startTime":2208.7430000000004,"endTime":2211.7760000000003,"body":"for this are like over titling you hire somebody"},{"startTime":2211.7760000000003,"endTime":2213.2430000000004,"body":"in in that stage"},{"startTime":2213.51,"endTime":2215.6760000000004,"body":"you're gonna outgrow them really quickly"},{"startTime":2215.8100000000004,"endTime":2217.8430000000003,"body":"you know if you have any level of success"},{"startTime":2217.9760000000006,"endTime":2219.5430000000006,"body":"and then you're gonna be stuck with somebody"},{"startTime":2219.5430000000006,"endTime":2221.4760000000006,"body":"that has a title that they haven't yet"},{"startTime":2221.4760000000006,"endTime":2224.3100000000004,"body":"had a chance to grow into and"},{"startTime":2224.3100000000004,"endTime":2226.943,"body":"you know we see this a lot'cause we have a lot of companies"},{"startTime":2226.943,"endTime":2231.876,"body":"in that you know in that sort of traction stage yeah"},{"startTime":2231.9760000000006,"endTime":2234.8100000000004,"body":"the next one after that is sort of like an awkward"},{"startTime":2234.8100000000004,"endTime":2237.9760000000006,"body":"phase because you've you finally get things working"},{"startTime":2237.9760000000006,"endTime":2239.4100000000003,"body":"pretty well in the traction"},{"startTime":2239.4100000000003,"endTime":2241.7760000000003,"body":"stage and like maybe you're in Quickbooks and you"},{"startTime":2241.7760000000003,"endTime":2243.7430000000004,"body":"you know you've got your inventory tools"},{"startTime":2243.7430000000004,"endTime":2246.3100000000004,"body":"and you've got your EDI and your trade deductions"},{"startTime":2246.3100000000004,"endTime":2250.0760000000005,"body":"stuff is like going okay and now you know somebody"},{"startTime":2250.0760000000005,"endTime":2251.2760000000003,"body":"backs up a truck and puts"},{"startTime":2251.2760000000003,"endTime":2252.7430000000004,"body":"10 million bucks into your business"},{"startTime":2252.7430000000004,"endTime":2254.5430000000006,"body":"and now you're going into that margin"},{"startTime":2254.5430000000006,"endTime":2256.9760000000006,"body":"stuff we talked about before and you've got a whole bunch of"},{"startTime":2256.9760000000006,"endTime":2258.2430000000004,"body":"slotting like"},{"startTime":2258.5430000000006,"endTime":2260.9100000000003,"body":"slotting is like half a percent when you're"},{"startTime":2260.9100000000003,"endTime":2262.443,"body":"you know super small"},{"startTime":2262.943,"endTime":2266.0760000000005,"body":"but like you know in that sort of like"},{"startTime":2266.8100000000004,"endTime":2270.4100000000003,"body":"20 to 80 million range"},{"startTime":2270.4760000000006,"endTime":2272.51,"body":"there's a lot of dollars coming in your"},{"startTime":2272.51,"endTime":2274.1430000000005,"body":"you know your channels are expanding and"},{"startTime":2274.1430000000005,"endTime":2276.7100000000005,"body":"slotting goes up to like three and a half percent"},{"startTime":2276.7100000000005,"endTime":2277.6100000000006,"body":"and and"},{"startTime":2278.1760000000004,"endTime":2279.9760000000006,"body":"you know and that's part of what's driving that margin"},{"startTime":2279.9760000000006,"endTime":2280.7760000000003,"body":"down"},{"startTime":2282.1760000000004,"endTime":2285.51,"body":"like that's a that's a difficult"},{"startTime":2286.4760000000006,"endTime":2288.4100000000003,"body":"it usually it helps to have some pattern"},{"startTime":2288.4100000000003,"endTime":2290.4760000000006,"body":"recognition in there like is it working"},{"startTime":2291.1760000000004,"endTime":2293.6760000000004,"body":"cause cause you know three and a half percent of"},{"startTime":2293.6760000000004,"endTime":2296.9100000000003,"body":"of you know 50 or 80 million dollars is a big number"},{"startTime":2297.5430000000006,"endTime":2297.6760000000004,"body":"and"},{"startTime":2297.6760000000004,"endTime":2299.9100000000003,"body":"you know you hope that you have good people in your"},{"startTime":2299.9100000000003,"endTime":2300.7100000000005,"body":"you know in your sales"},{"startTime":2300.7100000000005,"endTime":2302.9100000000003,"body":"team but like it it's really helpful to have a finance"},{"startTime":2302.9100000000003,"endTime":2305.2760000000003,"body":"leader the finance leader at at"},{"startTime":2305.2760000000003,"endTime":2307.9100000000003,"body":"25 million like probably doesn't have that skill set"},{"startTime":2307.9100000000003,"endTime":2309.0760000000005,"body":"unless you could convince"},{"startTime":2309.0760000000005,"endTime":2311.01,"body":"somebody to come down from a much bigger business"},{"startTime":2311.01,"endTime":2312.1100000000006,"body":"but so few of the companies"},{"startTime":2312.1100000000006,"endTime":2314.3100000000004,"body":"actually make it from 5 million to 50 million"},{"startTime":2314.3100000000004,"endTime":2316.6760000000004,"body":"that like a lot of them aren't willing to take that job"},{"startTime":2316.6760000000004,"endTime":2318.7760000000003,"body":"so you see what I mean like there's this like"},{"startTime":2319.0760000000005,"endTime":2322.2760000000003,"body":"it it just gets so tricky to move from stage to stage"},{"startTime":2322.2760000000003,"endTime":2324.3430000000003,"body":"and then eventually like if you're lucky"},{"startTime":2324.3430000000003,"endTime":2325.6100000000006,"body":"enough to get into that you know"},{"startTime":2325.6100000000006,"endTime":2328.2430000000004,"body":"seventy five hundred million dollar range like okay"},{"startTime":2328.4100000000003,"endTime":2330.876,"body":"that's a business that's like you know"},{"startTime":2331.1430000000005,"endTime":2333.6430000000005,"body":"in most cases clearly exitible"},{"startTime":2333.9760000000006,"endTime":2336.3430000000003,"body":"you know if it has growth you can attract somebody"},{"startTime":2336.3430000000003,"endTime":2337.51,"body":"from a much bigger business"},{"startTime":2337.51,"endTime":2339.1100000000006,"body":"to kind of come down market"},{"startTime":2339.1760000000004,"endTime":2341.1760000000004,"body":"that person's gonna have the resources"},{"startTime":2341.1760000000004,"endTime":2342.4760000000006,"body":"to you know hire up"},{"startTime":2342.4760000000006,"endTime":2345.51,"body":"the like a head of F P N a and and like just"},{"startTime":2345.51,"endTime":2347.9100000000003,"body":"do the things that you can do at the bigger business"},{"startTime":2347.9100000000003,"endTime":2348.876,"body":"and so usually"},{"startTime":2348.876,"endTime":2350.9100000000003,"body":"that's kind of where you start to find people that"},{"startTime":2350.9100000000003,"endTime":2352.7100000000005,"body":"you know can actually survive"},{"startTime":2353.01,"endTime":2355.4100000000003,"body":"you know to 200 or 300 million"},{"startTime":2355.6760000000004,"endTime":2356.5430000000006,"body":"okay and we've definitely"},{"startTime":2356.5430000000006,"endTime":2358.376,"body":"seen that you know in our businesses"},{"startTime":2361.2100000000005,"endTime":2364.7760000000003,"body":"the founder and kind of finance leader or the founder"},{"startTime":2366.3100000000004,"endTime":2370.1430000000005,"body":"a healthy founder and CFO relationship looks like and"},{"startTime":2370.3100000000004,"endTime":2371.1100000000006,"body":"maybe it's"},{"startTime":2371.2760000000003,"endTime":2373.0760000000005,"body":"another way to answer it when the relationship"},{"startTime":2373.0760000000005,"endTime":2376.3430000000003,"body":"breaks like what's the most common reason yeah that"},{"startTime":2376.3430000000003,"endTime":2379.2760000000003,"body":"the question really resonates for me because in those"},{"startTime":2379.3100000000004,"endTime":2382.7430000000004,"body":"you know four roles where I was a CFO at a startup"},{"startTime":2383.0430000000006,"endTime":2387.1100000000006,"body":"I I felt like my job was to sort of fill in gaps"},{"startTime":2387.1100000000006,"endTime":2388.2100000000005,"body":"for the"},{"startTime":2388.5760000000005,"endTime":2393.8430000000003,"body":"founder for the CEO and you know in every case like"},{"startTime":2394.3430000000003,"endTime":2396.9760000000006,"body":"the founders I was working with were really"},{"startTime":2397.1760000000004,"endTime":2399.9760000000006,"body":"really smart and in many cases"},{"startTime":2400.4760000000006,"endTime":2402.6100000000006,"body":"just had a ton of creativity"},{"startTime":2402.7100000000005,"endTime":2404.7760000000003,"body":"and I'm sort of a structure"},{"startTime":2404.9100000000003,"endTime":2408.3100000000004,"body":"like I'm more of sort of a back office like I'd I'd"},{"startTime":2408.3100000000004,"endTime":2409.3100000000004,"body":"probably more comfortable"},{"startTime":2409.3100000000004,"endTime":2411.5760000000005,"body":"working in a windowless room than like"},{"startTime":2411.9100000000003,"endTime":2415.1430000000005,"body":"you know going on a podcast but"},{"startTime":2415.376,"endTime":2417.1760000000004,"body":"that made me a good partner for them"},{"startTime":2417.1760000000004,"endTime":2419.876,"body":"like you know they were out with you know selling"},{"startTime":2419.876,"endTime":2421.9760000000006,"body":"or figuring out product"},{"startTime":2421.9760000000006,"endTime":2424.1430000000005,"body":"and I was in the windowless room"},{"startTime":2424.1430000000005,"endTime":2425.51,"body":"trying to make one system"},{"startTime":2425.51,"endTime":2427.443,"body":"talk to a different system or"},{"startTime":2427.5760000000005,"endTime":2430.1760000000004,"body":"you know figure out what story the numbers were telling"},{"startTime":2430.5430000000006,"endTime":2434.8100000000004,"body":"so I feel like every founder should be hiring the"},{"startTime":2434.9760000000006,"endTime":2436.943,"body":"you know the finance relationship"},{"startTime":2436.943,"endTime":2439.8430000000003,"body":"for their gaps and like a founder that went to Wharton"},{"startTime":2440.1760000000004,"endTime":2442.0430000000006,"body":"you know or used to work at"},{"startTime":2442.0430000000006,"endTime":2445.7430000000004,"body":"you know Goldman Sachs is probably not gonna need"},{"startTime":2445.876,"endTime":2449.8430000000003,"body":"you know a high horsepower F P N a C F o"},{"startTime":2450.0760000000005,"endTime":2453.0760000000005,"body":"so you know that might free them up to hire for domain"},{"startTime":2453.0760000000005,"endTime":2455.5430000000006,"body":"experience and maybe they don't need a finance VP"},{"startTime":2455.5430000000006,"endTime":2458.876,"body":"maybe they need a controller and and"},{"startTime":2459.1430000000005,"endTime":2461.376,"body":"you know that is really the you just"},{"startTime":2461.376,"endTime":2463.8430000000003,"body":"it's an opportunity filling that you know finance"},{"startTime":2463.8430000000003,"endTime":2465.5760000000005,"body":"leadership role is an opportunity to create"},{"startTime":2465.5760000000005,"endTime":2468.8430000000003,"body":"like a healthy balance between the the leadership so"},{"startTime":2468.9100000000003,"endTime":2472.376,"body":"you know you want some overlap but not too much yeah"},{"startTime":2473.7100000000005,"endTime":2474.943,"body":"the most common break"},{"startTime":2474.943,"endTime":2478.1760000000004,"body":"is is just growth I think it goes back to that talent"},{"startTime":2478.1760000000004,"endTime":2480.9100000000003,"body":"paradox thing that I was talking about before like"},{"startTime":2480.9100000000003,"endTime":2483.1430000000005,"body":"success breaks things and"},{"startTime":2483.1430000000005,"endTime":2485.443,"body":"you know maybe one of the unforced errors"},{"startTime":2485.5760000000005,"endTime":2490.6760000000004,"body":"around this is just hiring too early so like we we see"},{"startTime":2490.6760000000004,"endTime":2492.1430000000005,"body":"we have a growth stage practice"},{"startTime":2492.1430000000005,"endTime":2493.5430000000006,"body":"area now that was sort of"},{"startTime":2493.7430000000004,"endTime":2496.9760000000006,"body":"you know we we built that like three years ago"},{"startTime":2496.9760000000006,"endTime":2498.4760000000006,"body":"cause we just had more and more companies"},{"startTime":2498.4760000000006,"endTime":2499.4760000000006,"body":"that were larger"},{"startTime":2499.4760000000006,"endTime":2501.6760000000004,"body":"and and you know they were sort of graduating"},{"startTime":2501.6760000000004,"endTime":2503.4760000000006,"body":"they would they would you know they'd get to"},{"startTime":2503.4760000000006,"endTime":2505.4100000000003,"body":"$30 million or something"},{"startTime":2505.6430000000005,"endTime":2508.1100000000006,"body":"you know we'd always told them like you'll get to a certain size"},{"startTime":2508.1100000000006,"endTime":2511.0760000000005,"body":"where you should just bring it in house and you hire W2 people and"},{"startTime":2511.0760000000005,"endTime":2513.376,"body":"you know companies were they were doing that"},{"startTime":2513.376,"endTime":2518.0430000000006,"body":"but then you know maybe the growth slows and and um"},{"startTime":2518.7430000000004,"endTime":2520.8100000000004,"body":"you know the business um"},{"startTime":2522.1760000000004,"endTime":2524.376,"body":"you know it it's not quite at a point"},{"startTime":2524.376,"endTime":2527.7430000000004,"body":"where it can get to the next level and then they're trying to save money and they're realizing"},{"startTime":2527.7430000000004,"endTime":2528.2430000000004,"body":"they're spending"},{"startTime":2528.2430000000004,"endTime":2530.7100000000005,"body":"too much so they would come back to us and"},{"startTime":2530.7100000000005,"endTime":2533.0760000000005,"body":"we you know we eventually realized that um"},{"startTime":2533.443,"endTime":2535.1760000000004,"body":"we were losing our healthiest"},{"startTime":2535.443,"endTime":2539.7430000000004,"body":"companies so we we built this um sort of a different"},{"startTime":2539.7430000000004,"endTime":2541.3100000000004,"body":"product it's like a different service"},{"startTime":2541.3100000000004,"endTime":2544.4760000000006,"body":"model for companies in like called 30 to 300 million"},{"startTime":2544.4760000000006,"endTime":2545.9760000000006,"body":"range and now we've you know we've got"},{"startTime":2545.9760000000006,"endTime":2548.0760000000005,"body":"like dozens of nine figure businesses"},{"startTime":2548.376,"endTime":2550.876,"body":"in that thing it's not really what we're known for but it's sort of"},{"startTime":2550.876,"endTime":2552.8430000000003,"body":"you know we're doing unsexy"},{"startTime":2553.0760000000005,"endTime":2555.1430000000005,"body":"right you know behind the scenes kind of work"},{"startTime":2556.2430000000004,"endTime":2559.2100000000005,"body":"you know part of what we were um"},{"startTime":2559.6430000000005,"endTime":2563.5760000000005,"body":"solving for there was the failure of early hires"},{"startTime":2563.9760000000006,"endTime":2567.2430000000004,"body":"so you know somebody brings in a director um"},{"startTime":2567.2430000000004,"endTime":2570.0430000000006,"body":"you know at 10 million they outgrow a bookkeeping firm"},{"startTime":2570.3430000000003,"endTime":2572.7430000000004,"body":"at 5 million and then they just assume well we"},{"startTime":2572.7430000000004,"endTime":2574.7760000000003,"body":"you know we should just hire a W2 so"},{"startTime":2574.7760000000003,"endTime":2577.443,"body":"who can we afford and who can we attract well it's a"},{"startTime":2577.443,"endTime":2579.7760000000003,"body":"director level person who comes from a good company"},{"startTime":2579.8430000000003,"endTime":2581.2760000000003,"body":"you know you get somebody in that business"},{"startTime":2581.2760000000003,"endTime":2581.943,"body":"but then the business"},{"startTime":2581.943,"endTime":2584.2430000000004,"body":"triples in size in 18 months and like"},{"startTime":2584.443,"endTime":2588.2430000000004,"body":"the person's not gonna make it and you're also not really at the point where"},{"startTime":2588.2430000000004,"endTime":2589.1100000000006,"body":"you know you can hire"},{"startTime":2589.1100000000006,"endTime":2590.9100000000003,"body":"for the talent that you need so some of those companies"},{"startTime":2590.9100000000003,"endTime":2592.7760000000003,"body":"would come back to us and that's a yeah"},{"startTime":2592.7760000000003,"endTime":2594.51,"body":"that is preventable cause I think"},{"startTime":2594.51,"endTime":2596.2760000000003,"body":"the thing is when you outgrow your bookkeeper"},{"startTime":2596.2760000000003,"endTime":2598.943,"body":"it's not that like you've outgrown"},{"startTime":2599.51,"endTime":2600.5430000000006,"body":"you know a a"},{"startTime":2601.5760000000005,"endTime":2603.376,"body":"um you know a fractional"},{"startTime":2603.376,"endTime":2604.6760000000004,"body":"model I don't wanna use that word"},{"startTime":2604.6760000000004,"endTime":2605.9760000000006,"body":"cause like we don't really call ourselves"},{"startTime":2605.9760000000006,"endTime":2607.51,"body":"fractional anymore cause it just"},{"startTime":2607.51,"endTime":2609.376,"body":"it you know it feels like a part time thing"},{"startTime":2609.376,"endTime":2611.3430000000003,"body":"build me a financial model and then bail"},{"startTime":2611.3430000000003,"endTime":2613.376,"body":"that's not what we do right"},{"startTime":2613.4760000000006,"endTime":2616.1100000000006,"body":"so we like we call ourselves embedded now like"},{"startTime":2616.1100000000006,"endTime":2618.943,"body":"you know we'll start early and some of these cases"},{"startTime":2618.943,"endTime":2621.4760000000006,"body":"like with good culture we've been in that business"},{"startTime":2621.5430000000006,"endTime":2624.3100000000004,"body":"almost as long as like Jesse the founder"},{"startTime":2624.3100000000004,"endTime":2626.376,"body":"you know so we think about it a little bit differently"},{"startTime":2626.376,"endTime":2628.876,"body":"but I think you know part of it is that failure mode"},{"startTime":2628.876,"endTime":2632.01,"body":"around hiring too early um"},{"startTime":2632.3430000000003,"endTime":2635.8430000000003,"body":"you know or like the talent paradox where you're"},{"startTime":2635.8430000000003,"endTime":2638.1430000000005,"body":"you have this conundrum about you know hiring"},{"startTime":2638.1430000000005,"endTime":2640.1760000000004,"body":"for the stage or hiring for scale"},{"startTime":2641.3430000000003,"endTime":2643.1430000000005,"body":"I think you just have to accept that like"},{"startTime":2643.1430000000005,"endTime":2644.5430000000006,"body":"you know sometimes"},{"startTime":2645.3100000000004,"endTime":2647.9760000000006,"body":"like breaks are just part of the deal and planning"},{"startTime":2647.9760000000006,"endTime":2650.6430000000005,"body":"for it is probably a good idea you know making"},{"startTime":2650.6430000000005,"endTime":2653.443,"body":"making sure that things are documented and"},{"startTime":2653.876,"endTime":2654.4760000000006,"body":"you know that"},{"startTime":2654.4760000000006,"endTime":2656.7100000000005,"body":"that the knowledge doesn't walk out of the room"},{"startTime":2656.7100000000005,"endTime":2657.51,"body":"you know when somebody"},{"startTime":2657.51,"endTime":2659.2760000000003,"body":"gets recruited by a different company"},{"startTime":2659.2760000000003,"endTime":2662.6760000000004,"body":"or you have to make a you know a leadership change"},{"startTime":2662.8100000000004,"endTime":2664.7100000000005,"body":"for the founders that are"},{"startTime":2665.3100000000004,"endTime":2667.376,"body":"now let's just say they have more of a brand"},{"startTime":2668.0430000000006,"endTime":2672.1760000000004,"body":"sales background lens versus ones that"},{"startTime":2672.1760000000004,"endTime":2672.8100000000004,"body":"you know had a finance"},{"startTime":2672.8100000000004,"endTime":2675.0760000000005,"body":"background maybe they went to Penn as an example"},{"startTime":2675.2100000000005,"endTime":2678.01,"body":"um especially for those founders that"},{"startTime":2678.2100000000005,"endTime":2680.2100000000005,"body":"their things are really starting to take off"},{"startTime":2680.2100000000005,"endTime":2682.3430000000003,"body":"they're starting to get to some level of scale"},{"startTime":2682.9100000000003,"endTime":2685.5760000000005,"body":"what's kind of the minimum financial"},{"startTime":2685.5760000000005,"endTime":2687.943,"body":"literacy that you feel like they need to have to"},{"startTime":2688.2430000000004,"endTime":2689.4760000000006,"body":"they want to be dangerous and to"},{"startTime":2689.4760000000006,"endTime":2691.0760000000005,"body":"the minimum they need to have to"},{"startTime":2691.8100000000004,"endTime":2694.2100000000005,"body":"not I don't have things blow up in their face"},{"startTime":2696.0430000000006,"endTime":2697.5430000000006,"body":"that's an interesting question"},{"startTime":2697.6430000000005,"endTime":2699.2430000000004,"body":"I think for a lot of people"},{"startTime":2699.2430000000004,"endTime":2701.876,"body":"you know it's weird like some folks are"},{"startTime":2703.9760000000006,"endTime":2706.4760000000006,"body":"takes it takes all takes all kinds right we work"},{"startTime":2706.4760000000006,"endTime":2709.3100000000004,"body":"with 14 Founder I probably work with like 100 founders"},{"startTime":2709.3100000000004,"endTime":2712.943,"body":"like closely enough to to feel like I got them and"},{"startTime":2713.2430000000004,"endTime":2716.51,"body":"everybody's just wired in a different way like some people"},{"startTime":2716.8430000000003,"endTime":2718.4100000000003,"body":"are really detail"},{"startTime":2718.4100000000003,"endTime":2720.9100000000003,"body":"oriented and really want to have an understanding"},{"startTime":2721.0430000000006,"endTime":2723.7430000000004,"body":"you know or like just"},{"startTime":2724.6760000000004,"endTime":2726.4100000000003,"body":"wired to ask questions"},{"startTime":2727.1100000000006,"endTime":2728.51,"body":"you know until they get to a comfort"},{"startTime":2728.51,"endTime":2731.3430000000003,"body":"level and then other people like really"},{"startTime":2731.4760000000006,"endTime":2733.443,"body":"don't wanna go there like"},{"startTime":2733.443,"endTime":2735.376,"body":"really don't wanna talk about the balance"},{"startTime":2735.376,"endTime":2738.01,"body":"sheet and really don't wanna talk about the cap table"},{"startTime":2738.01,"endTime":2740.4100000000003,"body":"do you know what I mean and and I think that"},{"startTime":2740.4760000000006,"endTime":2742.51,"body":"part of the job"},{"startTime":2744.4760000000006,"endTime":2745.2100000000005,"body":"you know it's funny"},{"startTime":2745.2100000000005,"endTime":2749.1760000000004,"body":"like I've been doing this for 18 years and so the"},{"startTime":2749.8100000000004,"endTime":2752.51,"body":"way that I show up today is a lot different than the way I showed up"},{"startTime":2752.51,"endTime":2754.7760000000003,"body":"18 years ago sure of course like"},{"startTime":2755.4100000000003,"endTime":2756.876,"body":"you know I think"},{"startTime":2757.6430000000005,"endTime":2760.51,"body":"part of the job is to um"},{"startTime":2760.51,"endTime":2762.6430000000005,"body":"if somebody doesn't ask me the question"},{"startTime":2762.6430000000005,"endTime":2767.1760000000004,"body":"but I think something's important like I I I will"},{"startTime":2768.0760000000005,"endTime":2770.3430000000003,"body":"you know prescriptively"},{"startTime":2771.0430000000006,"endTime":2773.2100000000005,"body":"ask the question or introduce it"},{"startTime":2773.4100000000003,"endTime":2775.1760000000004,"body":"so like I've I've had I can think of"},{"startTime":2775.1760000000004,"endTime":2777.4760000000006,"body":"I can think of a bunch of conversations I've had over"},{"startTime":2777.4760000000006,"endTime":2780.3430000000003,"body":"the last year where I just went to somebody"},{"startTime":2780.6100000000006,"endTime":2783.2760000000003,"body":"who wasn't asking for my advice"},{"startTime":2783.5760000000005,"endTime":2786.0430000000006,"body":"with something that I thought they should do that I thought was"},{"startTime":2786.0430000000006,"endTime":2787.5760000000005,"body":"important and"},{"startTime":2787.6430000000005,"endTime":2790.5760000000005,"body":"you know some of that has to do with career confidence"},{"startTime":2791.2430000000004,"endTime":2794.9100000000003,"body":"a lot of that has to do with like having not"},{"startTime":2795.2100000000005,"endTime":2799.51,"body":"made that observation or not made that comment"},{"startTime":2799.9760000000006,"endTime":2801.6760000000004,"body":"for a previous business"},{"startTime":2801.6760000000004,"endTime":2804.376,"body":"and then regretted it like seeing the consequences"},{"startTime":2804.376,"endTime":2808.9100000000003,"body":"of the action not taken and yeah feeling responsible"},{"startTime":2808.9100000000003,"endTime":2810.2430000000004,"body":"honestly like"},{"startTime":2810.2430000000004,"endTime":2812.7100000000005,"body":"there was a bunch of like really difficult"},{"startTime":2812.7100000000005,"endTime":2815.6100000000006,"body":"things that I could have prevented if I had spoken up"},{"startTime":2815.6100000000006,"endTime":2817.2760000000003,"body":"earlier right"},{"startTime":2818.2430000000004,"endTime":2823.0760000000005,"body":"I think it's important for founders to"},{"startTime":2823.1100000000006,"endTime":2825.876,"body":"find a person who will do that"},{"startTime":2825.9100000000003,"endTime":2828.01,"body":"and it doesn't necessarily need to be the"},{"startTime":2828.01,"endTime":2829.1100000000006,"body":"financial person"},{"startTime":2829.1100000000006,"endTime":2831.0760000000005,"body":"you might already have somebody like that it"},{"startTime":2831.0760000000005,"endTime":2832.7100000000005,"body":"you know could be somebody on your board"},{"startTime":2832.7100000000005,"endTime":2836.6760000000004,"body":"it could be your spouse like it's just somebody"},{"startTime":2836.7100000000005,"endTime":2839.3100000000004,"body":"who sort of understands the domains"},{"startTime":2839.3100000000004,"endTime":2840.9760000000006,"body":"that are important whether it's"},{"startTime":2840.9760000000006,"endTime":2842.5760000000005,"body":"you know it's finance or"},{"startTime":2842.5760000000005,"endTime":2844.8430000000003,"body":"strategy or marketing or whatever and is like"},{"startTime":2844.8430000000003,"endTime":2846.8100000000004,"body":"gonna get in your face a little bit"},{"startTime":2846.9760000000006,"endTime":2849.3430000000003,"body":"if there's something you should be doing that you're not doing"},{"startTime":2849.51,"endTime":2851.1100000000006,"body":"yeah that totally makes sense"},{"startTime":2852.0430000000006,"endTime":2854.1430000000005,"body":"and by the way sorry to interrupt"},{"startTime":2854.1760000000004,"endTime":2856.9100000000003,"body":"now you're good you're good okay one"},{"startTime":2857.3100000000004,"endTime":2858.6760000000004,"body":"super underutilized"},{"startTime":2858.6760000000004,"endTime":2861.1760000000004,"body":"way to do that is the independent board member"},{"startTime":2861.7100000000005,"endTime":2862.51,"body":"like I've"},{"startTime":2862.51,"endTime":2864.6100000000006,"body":"I've just come to believe that the independent board"},{"startTime":2864.6100000000006,"endTime":2867.1100000000006,"body":"member is a secret weapon but we don't have"},{"startTime":2868.376,"endTime":2869.1430000000005,"body":"you get somebody"},{"startTime":2869.1430000000005,"endTime":2870.876,"body":"with your Series a and then you get somebody"},{"startTime":2870.876,"endTime":2872.6760000000004,"body":"else with your you know"},{"startTime":2872.7760000000003,"endTime":2876.0430000000006,"body":"Series B or Series C and then you've kinda got like"},{"startTime":2876.443,"endTime":2879.9100000000003,"body":"you know two founders and a couple investors and"},{"startTime":2880.0430000000006,"endTime":2881.2760000000003,"body":"but at a certain point the later"},{"startTime":2881.2760000000003,"endTime":2882.5430000000006,"body":"stage companies always get an"},{"startTime":2882.5430000000006,"endTime":2884.443,"body":"independent right maybe it's at the Series C"},{"startTime":2884.443,"endTime":2885.3100000000004,"body":"the investors"},{"startTime":2885.4760000000006,"endTime":2888.0760000000005,"body":"you know they get a seat and then they you know they"},{"startTime":2888.2760000000003,"endTime":2890.7430000000004,"body":"negotiate for like an independent board member seat"},{"startTime":2891.8100000000004,"endTime":2894.6430000000005,"body":"I think doing it early is is a total secret weapon"},{"startTime":2894.6430000000005,"endTime":2896.8100000000004,"body":"like I I know a couple of folks that"},{"startTime":2896.8100000000004,"endTime":2900.443,"body":"have you know had early early independent board member"},{"startTime":2900.7430000000004,"endTime":2902.9760000000006,"body":"seats and I've seen it in our own board uh"},{"startTime":2903.1430000000005,"endTime":2904.8430000000003,"body":"you know for propeller"},{"startTime":2905.7430000000004,"endTime":2907.01,"body":"and it's great cause those"},{"startTime":2907.01,"endTime":2908.4760000000006,"body":"independent board members like the good"},{"startTime":2908.4760000000006,"endTime":2909.5760000000005,"body":"independent board members"},{"startTime":2910.4760000000006,"endTime":2913.1100000000006,"body":"it's it's I think they they"},{"startTime":2913.5760000000005,"endTime":2917.0430000000006,"body":"feel rightfully so that it's their mandate to"},{"startTime":2917.0760000000005,"endTime":2918.6430000000005,"body":"like get in there and"},{"startTime":2918.6430000000005,"endTime":2921.2760000000003,"body":"and you know tell you maybe what you"},{"startTime":2921.3430000000003,"endTime":2923.5430000000006,"body":"you know have the uncomfortable conversation"},{"startTime":2926.2430000000004,"endTime":2927.1100000000006,"body":"a lot of brands are raising"},{"startTime":2927.1100000000006,"endTime":2929.4760000000006,"body":"capital right now it seems like the market is definitely"},{"startTime":2929.4760000000006,"endTime":2930.943,"body":"been heating up lately"},{"startTime":2932.1100000000006,"endTime":2934.376,"body":"when we chatted a little while back"},{"startTime":2934.7100000000005,"endTime":2936.4760000000006,"body":"you basically said to me"},{"startTime":2936.9100000000003,"endTime":2939.2100000000005,"body":"quote once you've raised 100 million"},{"startTime":2939.6100000000006,"endTime":2942.0760000000005,"body":"there's really only one path forward at that point"},{"startTime":2943.4100000000003,"endTime":2945.8100000000004,"body":"what changes structurally about about the business"},{"startTime":2945.8100000000004,"endTime":2947.1100000000006,"body":"after the hundred million dollar raise"},{"startTime":2947.1100000000006,"endTime":2948.7760000000003,"body":"and in terms of what you mean by that"},{"startTime":2949.2760000000003,"endTime":2953.4100000000003,"body":"yeah so there's a um it's a it's a systemic"},{"startTime":2954.0760000000005,"endTime":2957.1100000000006,"body":"problem um a lot of things change"},{"startTime":2957.1100000000006,"endTime":2959.01,"body":"when you've put that much money into a business"},{"startTime":2959.01,"endTime":2961.1100000000006,"body":"and they're not that many that have raised"},{"startTime":2961.376,"endTime":2963.7100000000005,"body":"you know hundreds of millions in CPG I mean"},{"startTime":2963.7100000000005,"endTime":2966.7100000000005,"body":"the the three unicorns that we talked about before um"},{"startTime":2966.7100000000005,"endTime":2968.876,"body":"you know have have all raised I think they've all"},{"startTime":2968.876,"endTime":2970.8100000000004,"body":"yeah they've all raised well over hundred million"},{"startTime":2971.2760000000003,"endTime":2972.5760000000005,"body":"like every"},{"startTime":2972.7100000000005,"endTime":2975.4100000000003,"body":"every dollar that you put into a business has to"},{"startTime":2975.4100000000003,"endTime":2978.1760000000004,"body":"come out of the business before the founder see a dime"},{"startTime":2978.4760000000006,"endTime":2980.4760000000006,"body":"like unless the when the company goes public"},{"startTime":2980.4760000000006,"endTime":2981.5760000000005,"body":"like there's sort of a"},{"startTime":2981.5760000000005,"endTime":2984.1100000000006,"body":"different situation there cause it all gets converted"},{"startTime":2984.4100000000003,"endTime":2988.7430000000004,"body":"into common but like when when you take that money"},{"startTime":2989.8430000000003,"endTime":2991.2100000000005,"body":"it creates a"},{"startTime":2991.2100000000005,"endTime":2995.2760000000003,"body":"there's a systemic split that occurs because the"},{"startTime":2995.8100000000004,"endTime":2999.5430000000006,"body":"the the investors deploying the capital have a"},{"startTime":2999.7100000000005,"endTime":3003.5760000000005,"body":"different set of interests um than the founders"},{"startTime":3003.5760000000005,"endTime":3004.6100000000006,"body":"do they're gonna get paid"},{"startTime":3004.6100000000006,"endTime":3006.1100000000006,"body":"first their job is to actually"},{"startTime":3006.1100000000006,"endTime":3009.2760000000003,"body":"put other people's money to work um"},{"startTime":3009.4760000000006,"endTime":3012.5760000000005,"body":"and and their job is to return the fund"},{"startTime":3012.6100000000006,"endTime":3014.7760000000003,"body":"right you raise a hundred million dollar fund"},{"startTime":3014.7760000000003,"endTime":3016.1100000000006,"body":"like you're making a ten million dollar"},{"startTime":3016.1100000000006,"endTime":3019.3430000000003,"body":"investment you want you expect to be able to um"},{"startTime":3019.51,"endTime":3020.876,"body":"get a lot of money out of that"},{"startTime":3020.876,"endTime":3023.376,"body":"investment you might even put more in later right so"},{"startTime":3023.376,"endTime":3025.376,"body":"once you've got a hundred million dollars into a brand"},{"startTime":3025.376,"endTime":3027.8100000000004,"body":"it it's not enough to have you know"},{"startTime":3028.01,"endTime":3029.5760000000005,"body":"100 million dollar exit"},{"startTime":3029.6430000000005,"endTime":3031.9760000000006,"body":"like nobody makes money in that right"},{"startTime":3031.9760000000006,"endTime":3034.376,"body":"and even a 200 million dollar exit is like"},{"startTime":3034.376,"endTime":3036.8100000000004,"body":"not what the investors were"},{"startTime":3036.876,"endTime":3039.0760000000005,"body":"looking for in most cases"},{"startTime":3039.1760000000004,"endTime":3041.2760000000003,"body":"right in in in private equity"},{"startTime":3041.4760000000006,"endTime":3043.8100000000004,"body":"like that's you know that's probably a decent outcome"},{"startTime":3043.8100000000004,"endTime":3045.876,"body":"you know if it happens in six months"},{"startTime":3045.876,"endTime":3046.7760000000003,"body":"it's a great outcome"},{"startTime":3046.7760000000003,"endTime":3049.5760000000005,"body":"but if it happens in six years it's like really"},{"startTime":3049.5760000000005,"endTime":3052.1430000000005,"body":"not great that's gonna drag your numbers down so"},{"startTime":3052.6430000000005,"endTime":3054.3100000000004,"body":"what's happening around"},{"startTime":3054.3100000000004,"endTime":3057.1100000000006,"body":"those decisions is I think where things become"},{"startTime":3057.1100000000006,"endTime":3060.0760000000005,"body":"problematic so there there's this sort of systemic"},{"startTime":3060.2760000000003,"endTime":3062.1430000000005,"body":"misalignment that occurs"},{"startTime":3062.51,"endTime":3065.51,"body":"sometimes between the common stockholders the founders"},{"startTime":3065.51,"endTime":3069.1760000000004,"body":"and the institutional investors you know who"},{"startTime":3069.1760000000004,"endTime":3072.2430000000004,"body":"who need to get a big exit they need you to take risks"},{"startTime":3072.2430000000004,"endTime":3074.4100000000003,"body":"in order to be able to get that outcome"},{"startTime":3074.4100000000003,"endTime":3077.1760000000004,"body":"if you're a first time founder like"},{"startTime":3079.3100000000004,"endTime":3080.2100000000005,"body":"every"},{"startTime":3080.6430000000005,"endTime":3082.9760000000006,"body":"every time you set the bar higher it just creates"},{"startTime":3082.9760000000006,"endTime":3084.8100000000004,"body":"more risk like it is"},{"startTime":3084.9760000000006,"endTime":3087.9760000000006,"body":"objectively much more difficult to build"},{"startTime":3088.1760000000004,"endTime":3089.8430000000003,"body":"a hundred and fifty million dollar"},{"startTime":3089.8430000000003,"endTime":3092.5430000000006,"body":"business than a hundred million dollar business"},{"startTime":3092.8100000000004,"endTime":3095.2100000000005,"body":"right or or a 300 million dollar exit"},{"startTime":3095.376,"endTime":3096.7100000000005,"body":"you know when you get to the point where"},{"startTime":3096.7100000000005,"endTime":3097.8100000000004,"body":"where you've got a"},{"startTime":3097.8430000000003,"endTime":3100.6760000000004,"body":"you're talking about the Tam and the market size"},{"startTime":3101.9100000000003,"endTime":3103.6760000000004,"body":"it's just adding a ton of risk"},{"startTime":3104.2100000000005,"endTime":3105.6760000000004,"body":"it's often true that the founders"},{"startTime":3105.6760000000004,"endTime":3108.1100000000006,"body":"just don't fully appreciate that in the moment"},{"startTime":3108.51,"endTime":3109.8100000000004,"body":"you know I'm I'm"},{"startTime":3110.0430000000006,"endTime":3112.6430000000005,"body":"running out of money and I need to get this"},{"startTime":3112.6430000000005,"endTime":3115.1100000000006,"body":"investment and this investor came to me and they"},{"startTime":3115.1100000000006,"endTime":3116.1760000000004,"body":"gave me a term sheet"},{"startTime":3116.1760000000004,"endTime":3118.7760000000003,"body":"for a bunch of money and it's a great valuation"},{"startTime":3119.2430000000004,"endTime":3122.5430000000006,"body":"you're not thinking in that moment that if you"},{"startTime":3122.6100000000006,"endTime":3124.7760000000003,"body":"take that money at that valuation"},{"startTime":3125.4760000000006,"endTime":3127.1760000000004,"body":"you're obligated to"},{"startTime":3127.1760000000004,"endTime":3129.8100000000004,"body":"spend that money to create a business that"},{"startTime":3129.9760000000006,"endTime":3132.1100000000006,"body":"you know has a much higher valuation"},{"startTime":3132.1100000000006,"endTime":3135.6430000000005,"body":"than it would if you didn't take that money or if you took that same money to lower valuation"},{"startTime":3135.6430000000005,"endTime":3136.9760000000006,"body":"so right there's"},{"startTime":3136.9760000000006,"endTime":3139.876,"body":"you know we can call that sort of the risk ratchet"},{"startTime":3139.876,"endTime":3142.3430000000003,"body":"like every time you take more money"},{"startTime":3142.443,"endTime":3145.876,"body":"the risk ratchets up it creates pressure"},{"startTime":3145.9760000000006,"endTime":3148.9100000000003,"body":"on you to build an extraordinary business"},{"startTime":3149.2430000000004,"endTime":3151.01,"body":"just to get your money back"},{"startTime":3151.3100000000004,"endTime":3153.6430000000005,"body":"versus like maybe a really good business"},{"startTime":3153.6430000000005,"endTime":3156.5430000000006,"body":"that could do really well for you and"},{"startTime":3156.8100000000004,"endTime":3159.876,"body":"this stuff just happens it happens slowly"},{"startTime":3160.1100000000006,"endTime":3161.6760000000004,"body":"you know you're you're chasing"},{"startTime":3161.6760000000004,"endTime":3163.9100000000003,"body":"this higher risk profile and you're hiring"},{"startTime":3163.9100000000003,"endTime":3166.3100000000004,"body":"new people and you're spending a lot more money in the complexity"},{"startTime":3166.3100000000004,"endTime":3169.5760000000005,"body":"that business increases and next thing you know like"},{"startTime":3170.2760000000003,"endTime":3171.8100000000004,"body":"you're just over your skis"},{"startTime":3171.876,"endTime":3174.2760000000003,"body":"you're over your skis as a leader a business"},{"startTime":3174.2760000000003,"endTime":3176.6100000000006,"body":"that you might have been perfectly capable of building"},{"startTime":3176.8100000000004,"endTime":3178.376,"body":"you know with a small amount of money"},{"startTime":3178.376,"endTime":3180.9100000000003,"body":"you know without a lot of institutional"},{"startTime":3181.01,"endTime":3184.8100000000004,"body":"support is now really hard you know you're you're"},{"startTime":3184.8100000000004,"endTime":3187.6430000000005,"body":"using all that capital to launch new skews"},{"startTime":3187.6430000000005,"endTime":3190.876,"body":"into new channels and now your working capital is"},{"startTime":3191.2100000000005,"endTime":3193.9100000000003,"body":"you know ratcheting up and you've got to hire a new CFO"},{"startTime":3193.9100000000003,"endTime":3197.376,"body":"and it's like all this is incremental complexity versus"},{"startTime":3197.876,"endTime":3201.2760000000003,"body":"you know what you might have had to do if you were just building a really good business"},{"startTime":3201.2760000000003,"endTime":3202.5760000000005,"body":"with a lot less money"},{"startTime":3202.8430000000003,"endTime":3205.1760000000004,"body":"so I think that's sort of the conundrum um"},{"startTime":3205.3100000000004,"endTime":3207.4760000000006,"body":"and we've seen some examples of that um"},{"startTime":3207.4760000000006,"endTime":3208.4100000000003,"body":"you know I think that"},{"startTime":3208.876,"endTime":3211.2430000000004,"body":"like one of the best known ones which has been talked"},{"startTime":3211.2430000000004,"endTime":3212.376,"body":"about a lot so I won't"},{"startTime":3212.376,"endTime":3215.0760000000005,"body":"you know I won't feel badly talking about is Casper"},{"startTime":3215.2760000000003,"endTime":3216.9760000000006,"body":"the mattress company yeah you're"},{"startTime":3216.9760000000006,"endTime":3218.3100000000004,"body":"yeah I'm sure you're familiar with them like"},{"startTime":3218.3100000000004,"endTime":3219.9100000000003,"body":"very familiar e commerce darling"},{"startTime":3219.9100000000003,"endTime":3223.2100000000005,"body":"right they were early after Warby Parker and"},{"startTime":3223.7100000000005,"endTime":3224.7760000000003,"body":"you know it was"},{"startTime":3224.7760000000003,"endTime":3227.3100000000004,"body":"and they're credited I think with like inventing"},{"startTime":3227.3100000000004,"endTime":3230.376,"body":"the mattress in a box category but yeah"},{"startTime":3230.376,"endTime":3231.7100000000005,"body":"you know that was a"},{"startTime":3231.7100000000005,"endTime":3235.376,"body":"that was a it was an amazing business I mean and and we"},{"startTime":3235.443,"endTime":3237.0430000000006,"body":"you know we got in pretty early"},{"startTime":3237.0430000000006,"endTime":3239.2760000000003,"body":"I didn't know then what I knew now for sure"},{"startTime":3240.376,"endTime":3242.7100000000005,"body":"so we got to see it from its earliest days and it was"},{"startTime":3242.7100000000005,"endTime":3244.6430000000005,"body":"you know they did like a million bucks in revenue"},{"startTime":3244.6430000000005,"endTime":3246.01,"body":"their first month and they did it"},{"startTime":3246.01,"endTime":3248.2430000000004,"body":"again their second month and again all this has been"},{"startTime":3248.2430000000004,"endTime":3251.2760000000003,"body":"like publicly disclosed so um"},{"startTime":3251.4100000000003,"endTime":3252.876,"body":"and it was a really healthy business"},{"startTime":3252.876,"endTime":3255.2430000000004,"body":"they raised a couple million dollars in a seed round"},{"startTime":3255.2430000000004,"endTime":3258.0430000000006,"body":"and and like didn't spend that much of it cause their"},{"startTime":3258.0430000000006,"endTime":3261.943,"body":"working capital situation was really good you know"},{"startTime":3262.2430000000004,"endTime":3264.01,"body":"consumer direct business so they get paid"},{"startTime":3264.01,"endTime":3266.2100000000005,"body":"right away and then they had terms from their suppliers"},{"startTime":3266.2100000000005,"endTime":3268.7100000000005,"body":"so like they didn't even"},{"startTime":3268.7100000000005,"endTime":3270.6760000000004,"body":"spend that much of the money that they had raised"},{"startTime":3270.6760000000004,"endTime":3273.8100000000004,"body":"and they did like a I think it was a 13 million dollar"},{"startTime":3273.8100000000004,"endTime":3276.876,"body":"Series a maybe five or six months after they launched"},{"startTime":3277.1760000000004,"endTime":3278.8100000000004,"body":"business was really healthy"},{"startTime":3279.0760000000005,"endTime":3282.51,"body":"up to that point and and they continued to grow like"},{"startTime":3282.51,"endTime":3283.9100000000003,"body":"crazy for another"},{"startTime":3283.9100000000003,"endTime":3286.01,"body":"year or so and then they did I think it was a"},{"startTime":3286.01,"endTime":3288.5760000000005,"body":"like a 50 million dollar series B"},{"startTime":3288.5760000000005,"endTime":3291.7100000000005,"body":"and I forget who came in in that round but they really"},{"startTime":3292.0430000000006,"endTime":3295.4100000000003,"body":"started investing heavily in growth at that point"},{"startTime":3295.4100000000003,"endTime":3298.9760000000006,"body":"you know what I don't think we knew then that we know now is that like direct to"},{"startTime":3298.9760000000006,"endTime":3301.6760000000004,"body":"consumer businesses sort of can reach a threshold"},{"startTime":3301.6760000000004,"endTime":3304.443,"body":"pretty early you're only gonna reach so many people"},{"startTime":3304.443,"endTime":3305.9100000000003,"body":"and it looks really healthy"},{"startTime":3305.9100000000003,"endTime":3308.2100000000005,"body":"and it looks like it's got you know tech growth and"},{"startTime":3308.2100000000005,"endTime":3309.0760000000005,"body":"and so they were getting"},{"startTime":3309.0760000000005,"endTime":3311.01,"body":"tech multiples and then all of a sudden like you"},{"startTime":3311.01,"endTime":3311.9100000000003,"body":"kinda reach this glass"},{"startTime":3311.9100000000003,"endTime":3313.4760000000006,"body":"ceiling where it's like hey there you've"},{"startTime":3313.4760000000006,"endTime":3314.5760000000005,"body":"you've got all the online"},{"startTime":3314.5760000000005,"endTime":3316.6430000000005,"body":"customers and by the way like people aren't"},{"startTime":3316.6430000000005,"endTime":3319.1760000000004,"body":"there's no sort of LTV on a mattress like"},{"startTime":3319.1760000000004,"endTime":3321.376,"body":"people buy a mattress and then that's kind of it"},{"startTime":3321.376,"endTime":3323.6760000000004,"body":"and if you don't have first order profitability"},{"startTime":3324.01,"endTime":3326.2430000000004,"body":"you know it's like you can really get yourself"},{"startTime":3326.2430000000004,"endTime":3328.3100000000004,"body":"into trouble like yep totally you know"},{"startTime":3328.3100000000004,"endTime":3330.1100000000006,"body":"we can know all those things in hindsight"},{"startTime":3330.1100000000006,"endTime":3332.4760000000006,"body":"because of what happened there but like"},{"startTime":3332.7100000000005,"endTime":3335.443,"body":"you know the footnote in that story is they wound up"},{"startTime":3335.443,"endTime":3341.4760000000006,"body":"raising like $350 million and then you know eventually"},{"startTime":3341.4760000000006,"endTime":3345.1760000000004,"body":"managed to IPO I think they just barely got out yeah"},{"startTime":3345.2430000000004,"endTime":3346.6760000000004,"body":"and even at the IPO price"},{"startTime":3346.6760000000004,"endTime":3348.2430000000004,"body":"like the IPO price was basically"},{"startTime":3348.2430000000004,"endTime":3350.6760000000004,"body":"the amount of capital they raised a memory"},{"startTime":3350.9760000000006,"endTime":3352.4760000000006,"body":"yeah it's like you know"},{"startTime":3352.4760000000006,"endTime":3355.5760000000005,"body":"investing 350 million bucks into a company"},{"startTime":3355.5760000000005,"endTime":3358.0430000000006,"body":"in order to get 350 million bucks out of it"},{"startTime":3358.0430000000006,"endTime":3360.2760000000003,"body":"right you know is not a great outcome"},{"startTime":3360.2760000000003,"endTime":3361.1760000000004,"body":"the early investors"},{"startTime":3361.1760000000004,"endTime":3363.8100000000004,"body":"probably did fine because that's the scenario where"},{"startTime":3363.8100000000004,"endTime":3365.01,"body":"you know in an IPO everybody"},{"startTime":3365.01,"endTime":3367.6100000000006,"body":"converts to common and the early investors you know"},{"startTime":3367.6100000000006,"endTime":3369.6760000000004,"body":"probably got like a decent return"},{"startTime":3369.8430000000003,"endTime":3372.6430000000005,"body":"but you know these guys had turned down"},{"startTime":3372.6430000000005,"endTime":3376.7100000000005,"body":"an offer from target for almost $1 billion"},{"startTime":3377.376,"endTime":3380.2100000000005,"body":"and and you know I think this shows you"},{"startTime":3380.2100000000005,"endTime":3382.4100000000003,"body":"and by the way these are some of the smartest"},{"startTime":3382.4100000000003,"endTime":3382.9100000000003,"body":"entrepreneurs"},{"startTime":3382.9100000000003,"endTime":3385.51,"body":"I've ever worked with like I want to say Neil was like"},{"startTime":3385.6100000000006,"endTime":3389.4100000000003,"body":"building like rockets for NASA or something"},{"startTime":3389.4100000000003,"endTime":3392.8430000000003,"body":"he's building robots for NASA and you know Philip had"},{"startTime":3392.8430000000003,"endTime":3393.9760000000006,"body":"built a similar business"},{"startTime":3393.9760000000006,"endTime":3397.2100000000005,"body":"before an exit like really really smart guys so like"},{"startTime":3397.443,"endTime":3400.0760000000005,"body":"my point is this can happen to anybody and"},{"startTime":3400.1100000000006,"endTime":3402.8430000000003,"body":"it's like this sort of systemic problem"},{"startTime":3402.8430000000003,"endTime":3406.6100000000006,"body":"um and you know we have the benefit obvious of having"},{"startTime":3406.6100000000006,"endTime":3409.7760000000003,"body":"Learned from their experience but"},{"startTime":3409.9760000000006,"endTime":3412.7100000000005,"body":"you know I still see this happening inside"},{"startTime":3412.7100000000005,"endTime":3414.0760000000005,"body":"businesses like"},{"startTime":3414.2760000000003,"endTime":3417.8100000000004,"body":"the investors wanna put capital to work and you know"},{"startTime":3417.8100000000004,"endTime":3419.1100000000006,"body":"smart founders"},{"startTime":3419.8430000000003,"endTime":3421.3430000000003,"body":"get you know"},{"startTime":3421.9760000000006,"endTime":3424.7100000000005,"body":"caught up in it and and you know nobody"},{"startTime":3424.7100000000005,"endTime":3427.7430000000004,"body":"wants to be the person to say like hey you're not worth"},{"startTime":3427.9760000000006,"endTime":3430.6100000000006,"body":"this valuation right and"},{"startTime":3431.1100000000006,"endTime":3433.5760000000005,"body":"you know but you can see how that would would lead"},{"startTime":3433.5760000000005,"endTime":3435.876,"body":"to like it's almost like it's like boiling a frog"},{"startTime":3435.876,"endTime":3438.2100000000005,"body":"right you make a series of decisions that"},{"startTime":3438.376,"endTime":3439.376,"body":"you know individually"},{"startTime":3439.376,"endTime":3442.4100000000003,"body":"don't kill you but which collectively you know compound"},{"startTime":3442.4100000000003,"endTime":3445.4760000000006,"body":"and and create a situation where a business actually"},{"startTime":3445.5760000000005,"endTime":3448.3430000000003,"body":"can't afford to be good any longer"},{"startTime":3448.6430000000005,"endTime":3451.6100000000006,"body":"and it's only option is to chase this sort of unicorn"},{"startTime":3451.6100000000006,"endTime":3452.6760000000004,"body":"outcome and"},{"startTime":3452.6760000000004,"endTime":3455.01,"body":"and you know I think that's an example of what happens"},{"startTime":3455.7430000000004,"endTime":3458.1430000000005,"body":"we all in the community I think have some obligation"},{"startTime":3458.1430000000005,"endTime":3459.2760000000003,"body":"now to just"},{"startTime":3459.2760000000003,"endTime":3461.4100000000003,"body":"talk about it so I'm sure I'm yeah you know it's"},{"startTime":3461.4100000000003,"endTime":3462.6760000000004,"body":"and again it's a thing that I"},{"startTime":3462.6760000000004,"endTime":3464.7760000000003,"body":"I wouldn't have felt comfortable doing"},{"startTime":3465.443,"endTime":3466.2430000000004,"body":"you know"},{"startTime":3466.3430000000003,"endTime":3469.5760000000005,"body":"you know probably even five years ago but yeah"},{"startTime":3469.6430000000005,"endTime":3472.443,"body":"you know now I just feel like okay it's it's"},{"startTime":3472.443,"endTime":3475.1430000000005,"body":"you know I'm I'm sort of too old to not say anything"},{"startTime":3475.1430000000005,"endTime":3478.01,"body":"about it like and I'm I'm not the CEO anymore"},{"startTime":3478.01,"endTime":3479.443,"body":"like I recruited a great"},{"startTime":3479.443,"endTime":3482.0430000000006,"body":"CEO a couple years ago and so now I'm a chairman and I"},{"startTime":3482.0430000000006,"endTime":3482.876,"body":"kind of yeah"},{"startTime":3482.9760000000006,"endTime":3486.4760000000006,"body":"I just feel like I have a little more flexibility to"},{"startTime":3487.1760000000004,"endTime":3490.1430000000005,"body":"shoot from the hip a little more yeah a little bit"},{"startTime":3490.1760000000004,"endTime":3492.1430000000005,"body":"you know I've got enough gray hair now where I"},{"startTime":3492.1430000000005,"endTime":3494.8430000000003,"body":"you know it's like okay what's gonna happen you know"},{"startTime":3494.8430000000003,"endTime":3496.51,"body":"totally totally"},{"startTime":3496.9760000000006,"endTime":3498.2430000000004,"body":"well yeah Chris this has been uh"},{"startTime":3498.2430000000004,"endTime":3500.6760000000004,"body":"this has been awesome I think this is gonna be incredibly valuable"},{"startTime":3500.6760000000004,"endTime":3502.6430000000005,"body":"for a lot of up and coming founders"},{"startTime":3502.6430000000005,"endTime":3504.6100000000006,"body":"that are building brands and other finance and ops"},{"startTime":3504.6100000000006,"endTime":3506.2760000000003,"body":"leaders that are listening to so"},{"startTime":3506.4100000000003,"endTime":3507.5430000000006,"body":"really appreciate the time"},{"startTime":3507.5430000000006,"endTime":3508.8430000000003,"body":"what's the best place for people to kind of follow"},{"startTime":3508.8430000000003,"endTime":3511.443,"body":"along with you I think you've got like a blog or website or something"},{"startTime":3511.443,"endTime":3513.2760000000003,"body":"and you're on LinkedIn too what's the best place for people to follow"},{"startTime":3513.2760000000003,"endTime":3515.3430000000003,"body":"along with you and call all your expertise"},{"startTime":3515.6100000000006,"endTime":3517.01,"body":"yeah I'd like LinkedIn"},{"startTime":3517.01,"endTime":3520.4760000000006,"body":"I think LinkedIn is probably good I've got a substack"},{"startTime":3520.5430000000006,"endTime":3522.6430000000005,"body":"I've written a couple things on Substack"},{"startTime":3522.6430000000005,"endTime":3525.5760000000005,"body":"that didn't feel quite right for propeller"},{"startTime":3526.6760000000004,"endTime":3530.0760000000005,"body":"so those are those are probably the two places perfect"},{"startTime":3530.7760000000003,"endTime":3532.6100000000006,"body":"awesome Chris I appreciate the time I think"},{"startTime":3532.6100000000006,"endTime":3534.7430000000004,"body":"I think that's the pod awesome"},{"startTime":588.733,"endTime":590.133,"body":"there's a couple different sectors"},{"startTime":756.866,"endTime":759.066,"body":"yeah it is it's sort of just how it is it's just"},{"startTime":803.516,"endTime":804.8499999999999,"body":"yeah it's exactly right"},{"startTime":1167.716,"endTime":1168.5159999999998,"body":"tighter"},{"startTime":1183.883,"endTime":1186.883,"body":"AR financing versus just raising more equity"},{"startTime":1511.9759999999999,"endTime":1514.576,"body":"to only be operating with like a few weeks of"},{"startTime":1614.71,"endTime":1616.376,"body":"that you've seen across those"},{"startTime":2363.2760000000003,"endTime":2364.7430000000004,"body":"what have you found"},{"startTime":2866.2760000000003,"endTime":2868.376,"body":"we just don't see that many of them you kinda"}]}