Episode 42 - Is Hell Real?

We confront the growing claim that hell is not real and lay out what scripture actually says about judgment, justice, and the narrow road. We share why “fire insurance” faith fails and why eternal life begins at new birth, not just at death.

• Biblical basis for Heaven and hell
• Critique of universalism and soft-pedaling sin
• Ezekiel’s watchman and responsibility to warn
• Difference between nominal belief and discipleship
• Free will, justice, and the “good person” myth
• Sanctification and daily obedience on the narrow road
• Pastoral clarity with humility and hope
• Holiday service times and church invite

If you're in the Rockdale area on a Sunday, come join us. We start with coffee, cookies, and conversation at 10:00, then worship at 10:30 at the American Legion Hall. Christmas Eve, we'll be right here on Oak Kelly Street out under the trees. Everybody's welcome to join us.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Welcome to Let's Connect, the official podcast of Connect Church in Rockdale, Texas, where we want to help you to live a life that matters. One that is both on mission and has a purpose to follow Jesus and make disciples. So let's get started.

Donuts, Weather, And Warm-Up Banter

SPEAKER_01 0:30

All right, welcome into Let's Connect, the official podcast of Connect Church here in Rockdale, Texas. I'm your host, Bill Whitmeyer, and I have with us our pastor, Ken Ansel. As always, Ken, how are you doing today? I'm great. Super. How are you? Pretty good. It's that medium weather for us. You know, it's not quite cold for you and not quite warm enough for me. You got the you know you got the vest on and the big denim shirt on, and I got the regular office shirt, and I just took my vest off because it's the warm inside. So yeah, it's it's like the pleasing weather for both of us, really. So it's a medium. Yeah, I'm good with that. So it's good. Um this uh as we said, this is Let's Connect, the official podcast of Connect Church here in Rockdale, Texas. And uh if you're in the Rockdale area on a Sunday, come join us. We'll be at the American Legion Hall right now, temporarily located there. We start with uh coffee cookies and conversation. Somebody said Sunday. I thought that was pretty good at 10 o'clock, and then we have fellowship up until worship service starts at 10 30. Everybody's welcome to join us. We do have a nursery and we have a children's church, and we have Christmas cookies right now because we are still in Advent season preparing for Christmas.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Yeah, we're doing hot chocolate and donut holes in January.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

I got a weakness. Donut holes are like my weakness. That is that is like my cryptonite. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that and pie. But definitely, definitely uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

You like a good donut.

Why Talk About Hell Now

Scripture On Heaven, Hell, And The Narrow Way

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Oh man, I used to go to the office, and there's a donut shop in the in right right at the front of the office. We were in this big building in Bryan College Station, and there was a little donut shop right next to it, and then this little coffee place next to it. So I stop in and get a coffee and then get a dozen donut holes, and then go into my office and you know, and man, it was I mean, that's not enough. I mean that's like three donuts, really. I mean, if you cut a donut into quarters, that's about a donut hole. So that's only like three donuts. So yeah, I'm not saying there weren't days that I went and didn't go back and get another dozen, you know. I would I probably could eat a dozen donuts. Uh sit down right now and eat a dozen donuts. It's like kryptonite to me. I can just smell them when I walk into church when we have me. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that. Yeah. Yeah, the nurse thinks you for that also. I know. So here in the last week or so, and you texted me this earlier this week and asked me about it. I thought it was a good idea. But here we in the last few weeks, it seems like I've seen it on social media and some other spots that there's been a big discussion among some folks in the religious community about hell and how literal is the Bible as far as hell is concerned. Is there a hell? I've seen a couple of folks say that they don't really believe that that they believe that's more of a um well, it's just that that it's just not real. I don't even know what to compare it to. And so you brought that up in in a text message to me earlier this week, and I thought, man, that's a really good topic. So I'm gonna let you run with it because it y you're the one that brought it up.

SPEAKER_02 3:49

Yeah, well So is there a hell? There's a there the yeah, definitely there's a hell. There's a heaven and a hell, and it's very clear in scripture. You know, I think of Matthew 7. Jesus said there's a broad road, right? There's a narrow road, and the narrow road uh leads one place, and the broad road is a road of destruction, and few find the narrow road. So when we say things like we don't say it because we like to say it, but when we say, you know, there's most people are not Christians, that's based on Matthew 7. Jesus said there's very few people that are that are Christians.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

And you know, part of this I think is universalism is creeping into uh the church or Christianity where uh like guys like Rob Bell who Explain for a second universalism, because I know there's a lot of folks out there that that that when you say that kind of have heard it maybe but don't quite understand it.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Yeah, I would say that everybody goes to heaven maybe is a good that's maybe what I would call it. Yeah, Rob Bell, who, you know, was kind of went off the deep end maybe a decade ago now, wrote a book called uh Love Wins, and it was that at the end of the day, everybody's going to heaven. And uh we know that's just not true, and yet wow, I mean, m most people aren't Christians based on scripture. Few find the narrow road. And then and yet every funeral we go to, everybody that died is in a better place. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

I think I see that you see that on the social media so-and-so got their angel wings today. Yeah, and we don't become angels either, so that's a whole other topic.

Universalism And “Love Wins”

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Yeah, so there's a lot of layers to this, and and what's driving what drives this for you and I is Ezekiel three that says if if we know people are headed towards destruction, we have a responsibility to tell them. And if we don't, we're gonna be accountable to that. And so we know that that um there's a lot of people that without Christ, right? That's how you get to heaven, a personal relationship with Christ. Uh without Christ, you're gonna end up eternally separated from God in hell, and and and and we've got an obligation to let people know those without Christ, people that we love, are headed towards destruction.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

And and it always seemed like I remember growing up and growing up in a Baptist church most of my life. It always seemed like it was like that was the goal. The goal was not to go to hell much more than it was doing God's, you know, doing God's work and and walking walking with God and and having a relationship with God that you know it was like you want to avoid, you want to avoid hell. You need to do this to avoid hell. That's kind of how that's kind of how being a good Christian seems like when I was growing up, but always got sold. Well, you need to do this or you're gonna go to hell. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

You know. Man, I think it's true. Uh there's uh a book, I think you you've read it or you're reading it, Future Church, that kind of breaks things down in decades. And yeah, there's been times, I mean, I grew up in that same that same era. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

Yeah, you're right. It was it was uh that was the emphasis. I what I mean, this is a little off topic, maybe rabbit hole, but what era are we in now? What are we trying to? I wonder what you'd say to that. Like, is it are we in the make disciples era? I mean, that's always been a thing, right? Is that the focus now, you think?

Ezekiel’s Watchman And Our Responsibility

Fear-Based Faith Vs Daily Walk With God

SPEAKER_01 7:17

But I don't think it is in the in the modern church. I I think there's a there's a survival emphasis. And you know, we see the we see the newspaper articles, I see the articles in Christian publications where it's people are coming back to Christ and and there's this, you know, you saw the Ohio State football team last season, they had this huge revival deal. They're on campus in Columbus, and and they look at these examples, and but when you look at your n your modern churches in your small towns and and and and the traditional churches, they're just fighting for survival. You know, they're just trying to make it from from here to there, and that that element of the other, you know, I remember, you know, I I I've told you this before, I was lucky enough to have all four of my great-grandmothers well into my teens and even into my twenties. And um, and no, my p my my family has great longevity. They weren't having babies every 18 years, you know. So um, but I I remember one of my great-grandmothers and her her father-in-law, my great-great-grandfather w was a pastor in northeast Georgia, and you know, he preached hard on your day-to-day relationship with God. And good stuff. That the you know, that that's um you you did that on earth, you made disciples on earth. And then when and and and how we got into this discussion was because we were actually talking about the concept that I just mentioned where churches used to say that all the time, well, you need to do this, this, this, or you're gonna go to hell. It wasn't you need to do to do this, this, and this to have a a lifelong relationship with God. And and and sh she's the first person that told me that. He used to always say that um and and and I don't think she really knew him that well, but she had heard the stories over the years. But but he's the one that um really put that out there that your eternal life started the day you were reborn in Christ. Yeah. Your lifetime here on earth leads into heaven with the right relationship with God, yeah, and and that day-to-day commitment to living a Christ-centered life, and that those that aren't reborn, those that don't follow that path, those that are are are simply a Christian in name only, those folks surely will find themselves in hell. Yeah. You know, and and it's the people that truly accept God and are reborn at that moment, they're already living their eternal life. They're just living the earthly part of that eternal life, and the heavenly part will follow. Yeah. And that's why that's what so so when I've said that in the past, and some folks have looked at me like I'm a genius, no. It's something I had just passed down to me over the years, you know.

Church Survival And Soft-Pedaling Sin

SPEAKER_02 10:21

I'm glad you don't take credit for it. Yeah, I mean, because yeah, anyway, too many people are plagiarizing. Yeah, I I man, I think you let me follow up on something you said. Yeah, that the the season we're in, if a church, and this is part of what we're talking about, if the if a church is just trying to keep its doors open, there may be a temptation to not talk about things like hell and sin, right? Because you want you just want to get people in the door and uh have them help you keep the lights on and the doors open, and yet we do people a disservice. Uh you know, in in in Matthew 8 and and Luke 13, hell is described as a place of intense anguish and exclusion from God's kingdom. And it's uh it's the uh fate of unrighteous people, people that are not right with God, right? People that aren't righteous, they're unrighteous because they're not right with God. And we know that that um you know scripture describes it as a place of eternal punishment, place of anguish, uh, a place of God's wrath, uh, a place of fire and torment. And um I think the worst thing about hell is God gives you over to your sin. You you've lived in rebellion, and and some people are proud of that. And it's like God saying, okay, you can just stay in that forever now in these places of punishment because that's what you wanted. And um I I think it's in Matthew 2, it it says, People will drink the wine of God's wrath. And so, and so people choose hell by not choosing Christ, right? Right. And so it's, you know, people will say, Well, how can a good God, a loving God, send people to hell? But it's really people choose that on their own.

What Scripture Says Hell Is Like

Free Will, Choice, And God’s Justice

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Yeah, it's not I mean, obviously God knows about it, but it's not Him saying, you know, I don't want you. Yeah, you're here. Absolutely not. You you you you earned that. You made that happen. It it wasn't anything anybody did to you. It was something that you did to yourself. And we all have that we all have that ability to choose. You know, we choose God's will or we choose that choose that free will. And that free will you can do whatever you want, but there is going to be a price eventually to be paid to live that free will. You know, I I I hear people say, you know, I and and I've heard one of my children say this, you know, you know, God wants us all to to to love each other and to be happy. And you know uh n not at any cost, you know. And I mean so so so when I see people that are are living a lifestyle that is totally separate from what w what's talked about in the Bible and and and and what's in scripture, but they come at you with that, well, well, I I'm a good person and and I love people and and this, or I'm gonna allow them to be what they want to be and live how they want to live. Well, you can't stop anybody from living how they want to live, but you can, and and this is difficult for a lot of people. You have friends that are that that are non-churchgoers or whatnot, and to let them know that you know that that I don't believe in that. You know, I I I I believe in God, and I believe this is how God wants things, this is what it says in the Bible, and I I can't I can't agree with that. I can't believe in that, I can't support that. And and it those are tough uh those are things that and and I'm not just talking about friends or neighbors, family members, children, you know. There are times when you have to, and I've seen parents backtrack on their beliefs, on their Christian beliefs in order to not offend a child. Yeah. And the thing is, is it's not about offending somebody, it's about letting somebody know, hey, this is the right thing to do. Yeah. That is not the right thing to do, and the Bible tells us. It's not even my belief. It's it's I believe what's in the Bible, and this is what the Bible says. Therefore, this is right, and that's not. And and we struggle with that mightily to the detriment of those that we don't share that with. No.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

You know, that's that Ezekiel and destruction and accountability. Yeah, I think there's I think there's a people think when you just said, you know, well, I'm good. Well, the Bible says, you know, not you and I, the Bible says God says no one is good. The only thing good in you and I sitting at this table is Jesus. And we're born sinners and we're born uh needing uh grace, need to receive grace, the grace of God, and be forgiven of that sin. And I think a lot of people think that I I it seems like some people they go, yeah, yeah, yeah, hell's a real place, but it's it's for people like Charles Mansen or Hitler, I mean, not the guy next door that mows my yard when I'm out of town, right? But without Christ, that that guy, because he's he's born a sinner, just like the most e you know what we would call evil people, uh you know, Saddam Hussein or anybody like that, I mean it's it's the same, it's it's the sin nature of man that has to be solved through the blood of Christ, and it can be right through establishing a relationship. Yeah. But hell's not reserved just for a handful of people. And and really we we all like justice, right? We were just talking about that earlier, yeah and I about some stuff, and we all want justice and and and hell is the ultimate justice for those that don't accept Christ in this life. So we all want it, except we don't want it when it pertains to us, maybe.

“Good Person” Myth And Need For Grace

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Yeah. Well that's the way it is with most things, you know. It's it's uh, you know, you know, what is it that that old thing where it's uh, you know, a recession is when the other guy loses his job, the depression's when I lose the job, you know. It's kind of the same thing. Yeah, it's kind of the same. You know, uh and and and and the fact is you you have said this to us many times, you know, our our job is not to to our job is to share the good news with people and allow them the opportunity to hear it. Yeah. The decision to follow Christ, the decision to have that faith in Christ is their decision. And and theirs alone. And and recently one of uh one of my children actually asked me, what about people that that are like living in the Amazon and have never been exposed? And you know what, my I don't know. I I really don't know. Um I've heard some great theologians talk about that, and when it comes down to the end, you know, they don't know. You know, and and and it's funny to listen to them because they try to come up with some, you know, but but but they don't even really know and and they've never been exposed to it. So I so I don't know what to think there, but but but when you have heard it, I have heard it. And and I would dare say most everybody in the United States has heard at some point the basic story of the good news. And whether you choose to accept that or to walk away from it, it's totally up to you. But like you said earlier, that road that follows God is a narrow road. And believe me, there are Christians on the broad road, there are Christians on the narrow road. There are Christians on that broad road with atheists, with those of you know other religions that are totally against everything that it says in the Bible. There are Christians walking, you know, with people that claim to be Christians that are walking with those folks on that broad road. And that narrow road is is that road where you walk with Christ, where you're living that Christ-centered life where that's all you need. Yeah. You know, we hear that oh, I need this and I need this. No, all and all you need is God.

What About Those Who Haven’t Heard

SPEAKER_02 19:00

Yeah. I think there's a discrepancy in what it means to be a Christian, and that's a part of this. You know, back in the day, people used to become a Christian to buy fire insurance is what they've called it, you know, so they could avoid hell and heaven is good, but you know, they just want to avoid hell. And and you know, I think we've somehow what it means to be a Christian, a Christ follower, a disciple of Christ, has gotten watered down. You know, a lot of people think if they believe that God exists, then that's Christianity because they're not Muslim, they're not Buddhist, and they're not Hindu, they must be a Christian if they live in America. And they like the idea of God, they're not against God. But we know that just you know, believing in a historical figure like Jesus, who actually existed, you know, there's historical proof that he did exist and yada yada isn't the same thing as uh I mean, because you know, whosoever believeth in him, right? But that's not a believe just. Just in the fact that he existed. Belief means uh trust in, cling to, uh, and abide in. And that's about building a relate starting a relationship that uh your your hope is in him, your trust is in him, that he's solved your sin problem, he died in your place. You're you're believing in that and you're trusting in that and you're following him, you're pursuing him because you you're your love for him is you recognize what he's done for you and you love him, and because of that you follow him and you're obedient to him, and you're on that narrow road, and um and you're living like Jesus and through the sanctification process, becoming more like him, and all those things are enjoyable to you, even though they're hard. Um and I don't know that everybody's got that definition of Christianity down very well, do you?

Narrow Road Discipleship And Real Belief

SPEAKER_01 20:53

No. And and it goes back to what we've talked about many times on here. Everybody's looking for the easy Christianity. Yeah. And being a Christian, Jesus says it in the Bible. Being a Christian's not easy. You know, it it just it it's not easy. And and that's we live in a society I think we I think we've always the world is always people have always been looking for the easiest way to do things. But uh even more so today when you find people that, you know, they're they're they're upset that they have to get out of their car and go in and get something out of the store or or that they have to drive to the store and somebody's gonna bring it out and they can't just order it from home and have it. And so we live in a society that's easy like that. It seems to get easier every day. Yeah. And we want our Christianity to be Christianity to be just that easy too. And and I think there's always been those folks that want it that way. Yeah. I want my Christianity to be what I need, what I need it to be so that I can avoid hell but still live my life the way I want to. Yeah. And it doesn't work that way. And and so point being, the question you asked me is how do I feel about doing a podcast on is there a hell? And yeah, there is a hell. And you're gonna hear every day, it seems not every day, but a lot of the time we seem to hear somebody who's preached on this, preached on this, preached on this, and then makes a you know, a 180-degree turn on it. And I think you're right, which is something you said earlier in this podcast was they make that turn to save their church, to save the to keep followers, to get more followers and stuff like that. Well, you know, yeah, I need to do this, I need to do this, but he said there's no hell. Yeah. And then how much does that help people just feel like they can even more do whatever they want to do? Look, the whole purpose to be a Christian, the whole purpose to work to walk with Christ is is not to have your best life now, it's not to do this, it's not to do that, it's not to avoid hell. It's it's to live your life the way God intended. And and move through the rest of eternity with God. Um because if you're acting on Christianity just to avoid hell, yeah, it's the fire insurance you're talking about.

Easy Christianity And Fire Insurance Faith

SPEAKER_02 23:19

Yeah, that's that's us, huh? That was a good last word. All right. You got it this way. I am okay. Holy Father, we come before your throne, praising your name. And Father, we realize this is a sensitive topic, and we pray for those who are listening that they would um hear everything we've said in the same spirit that it's meant. And um, Father, you know, love doesn't rejoice in wrongdoing, and so we don't rejoice in anybody that would pass away and and then spend eternity separated from you. Father, we want people to know you, to live for you, to love you, and to enjoy you and and then enjoy you uh as they walk on earth, but also then forever. And Father, what a man, what a great thing as we as we read in Revelation, just to experience you, you know, your glory, uh, to worship you for eternity, Lord, what a blessing. And so we're so grateful for this plan. And um we pray that, Lord, that this podcast would embolden all of us to be burdened and and bold in sharing that good news that uh that Bill talked about. We pray these things in your son's name. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Amen. All right. Well, I don't know what episode that was. I've lost track. I think it's like 42 or 43 or something like that. So uh next week here live, uh, no matter when you're listening to this, next week for us live is Christmas. And uh probably just do a short little reading or something next week, uh, just so we keep some continuity so that folks know we're still here. But if you're around, we will be having uh church on Sunday. If you're in the Rockdale area, come out to the American Legion. We start worship at 10:30. We have coffee, cookies, and conversation right now at 10. And then uh Christmas Eve, we'll be right here on uh Oak Kelly Street out under the trees. So everybody's welcome to join us. Till next week. God bless.