LOOPED IN with Carl Warkentin

Scaling Upcycling: How MOOT Turns Textile Waste into Profit with CEO Michael Pfeifer

• Carl Warkentin • Season 1 • Episode 14

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What if the clothes, uniforms, and textiles your company discards could become a source of revenue instead of a disposal expense? Michael Brenner, co-founder of Mood, reveals how industrial-scale upcycling is transforming the textile waste landscape, creating profitable business models from what was previously considered garbage.

The conversation begins with Michael sharing how Mood evolved from a small Berlin-based B2C brand into a powerhouse B2B service provider, helping major corporations like DHL, Deutsche Bahn, and the German national football team transform their discarded textiles into desirable, sellable products. Through these partnerships, Mood has proven that sustainability initiatives can generate actual profits, not just reduce environmental impact.

Michael takes us behind the scenes of their innovative collection system, where branded containers placed in corporate offices (rather than on streets) yield higher-quality materials while creating an additional revenue stream. This approach stands in stark contrast to traditional textile collection schemes that are increasingly economically unviable as fast fashion quality declines and secondhand platforms siphon off the best materials.

The discussion delves into the regulatory challenges facing the European textile market, particularly the inconsistent implementation of Extended Producer Responsibility (EPR) schemes across the continent. Michael shares candid insights about the shortcomings of current approaches in countries like France and the Netherlands, emphasizing that Europe needs comprehensive solutions to address the fundamental problem: we're simply producing and consuming too many textiles.

Whether you're a sustainability professional, fashion industry insider, or business leader looking for innovative approaches to corporate waste, this episode offers practical insights into how upcycling can transform sustainability from a cost center into a profitable venture. Subscribe now and discover how the future of fashion might not be in creating new materials, but in creatively reusing what we already have.

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Carl:

Michael, welcome to another episode of the Circular Economy Podcast our economy for a better future. So let's get started with today's guest, Michael. Welcome to another episode of Looped In.

Michael:

I'm happy to have you here in our beautiful offices in Munich. Yeah, thanks for the invite, Karl. Happy to meet you here in Munich in person and happy to be part of the podcast.

Carl:

Yeah, I'm really excited that we have another sit down and talk to each other. We know each other already for quite a while I think at least one and a half years, if not longer. Yeah, something like that and I became a big fan of what you do. You're mr upcycling, if you will, and maybe you can share a little bit of how we first met, but I was rather critical towards upcycling in general, and not not as a topic in itself, but more like this about the scalability in it. So maybe please share what what you do and stand for with your company, mood and how we met yeah, maybe we can start with uh, with how we met um.

Michael:

So there was an uh event in berlin.

Michael:

It was, I don't know, one and a half years or two years ago, something like that and uh, um, you were speaking about circular textiles and, and in this panel discussion or in this event, I think you were really focusing on recycling and increasing the recycling quotes, and what I felt was really missing in your view on circular textiles was upcycling in general, and I was challenging a little bit your views and your convictions in that regard.

Michael:

And after that we had a few exchanges and I think I'm not exaggerating when I say you took over some of our views on upcycling and the importance of how upcycling can play a crucial part in Circular TechSat. And yeah, having said that, maybe a few words to Mood. So I co-founded the company which is called Mood M-O-O-D, founded the company which is called mood moot, and we provide an upcycling solution at an industrial scale. So we take existing textiles and, instead of mechanically or chemically recycling them, we try to use existing parts and produce new products out of it, and this we do with focus on b2b that's beautiful, because we hear a lot about recycling, as you just mentioned.

Carl:

We do hear a lot about downcycling as well, right, and landfill, but there's not a lot of talk about upcycling. And I think after this event from pwc I think it was we had a call and you let me put it this way I was rather skeptical because what I thought of mood is your more like B2C-phased Berlin store with upcycled products where I thought, okay, that's cool, right, like a typical Berlin secondhand store or upcycled store. How is that ever going to scale to something like relevant on a bigger stage? But in that meeting you totally proved me wrong with kind of everything you do from like very smart collection scheme to really scalable upcycling. So I don't know what we want to tackle first. Is it like the how we get the products or is it like the upcycling?

Michael:

but I leave it up to you yeah, maybe I can describe a bit more of what we do and how the whole whole story is um. As you said in, in the beginning the company was um, focusing on b2c. So we founded the company um, and when I say we, I mean my co-founder, niels. He's a fashion designer, I have a business background and we founded the company um because we were convinced that there must be a smarter way in reusing textiles. And, uh well, we started with a very simple approach, saying okay, we take existing materials, for example, bed sheets, blankets, turn them into t-shirts, jackets, whatsoever, and sell them under our own brand called mood. We are still doing that. We are selling upcycled products online and we sold tons of upcycled products B2C, which is nice.

Michael:

But what really made the company scale is when we shifted to B2B, because we realized well, all of what we learned about how to reuse material makes even more sense in a B2B context. So we act as a service provider to companies like DHL, deutsche Bahn, many organizations in professional sports so the German national team is among our customers but we also work with textile companies such as Gore-Tex, for example, and do upcycling for them, and this just works on a bigger scale. This just works on a bigger scale. So upcycling in itself is no rocket science, but really scaling the operational challenges that's really complicated.

Michael:

But that's not all what we do, because we have a more strategic point of view when it comes to scaling upcycling, because upcycling has the beauty that you see when a product is actually upcycled. So while sitting in front of you, for example, I'm currently wearing a t-shirt which is made out of a bed sheet, and my fanny pack here on my left that's made out of a leather jacket, and of course, that's uh when, when you describe it verbally that that that seems to be very simple. But with upcycling there comes a big trust into the product, into the process, and that enables us to collaborate with other partners in a circular textile value chain, value circle, however you want to call it and therefore we also collect textiles, because we get textiles of a very high quality that was actually what really convinced me back then, because I'm so deeply involved with collection companies right in the big collection companies in in europe that collect and sort and the entire business model faded away and many of them face bankruptcy, at least in germany and europe.

Carl:

One of the stronger ones that are still up and running and doing pretty well is, I think, also one of your investors and strategic partners, the Boer Group from the Netherlands. So far, these collection companies paid to put their containers somewhere or to collect textiles from H&M at their take-back schemes, and that is a bit shifting right now. But it's still not a very profitable business case at the moment. Because what happened? Let's say, five or ten years ago, you would pay for the collection. Let's say, five or 10 years ago, you would pay for the collection but you would get so much money with selling this stuff because the quality was a bit better and because shipping it off to third world countries, to the global south, and selling it and that ends up a lot of times in landfill A lot of these things don't work anymore like that because of many different factors.

Carl:

The global south gets cheaper things new from China than secondhand from Europe. I think in the States it's similar. So that whole business model faded away and now you come and have these beautifully designed containers that are marketed and designed with your B2C brand right. So when I have the feeling I don't put there like any shitty clothes in it, I put there my as you said before a nice old leather jacket in it, because somebody at mood is going to upcycle it and it's going to have a second life. And the second uh thing that I really liked is that you put it not on the streets but in front of offices where you even get paid rent. Yeah, to put your containers there, and then even they are more likely to put only good quality stuff yeah, definitely, with that.

Michael:

We are not more and less, uh, um, disrupting how textiles are getting collected.

Michael:

Um, as we, as we said in the beginning, we are currently sitting in munich and the development of textiles is so, so weird and also at a so fast pace that when you put in a, when you, when you put a container in a street in munich and you can go there with your car, pick it up and drive it to the next textile sorting company, then you have generated much more costs than the content of the container currently, and this is a big problem.

Michael:

So there must be a smarter way to collect textiles and, with mood, we found a really good way. Since we upcycle and since people really understand what upcycling means, they have a trust, they have a, they, they can really see oh yeah, this, this is made out of a leather jacket Then people trust you and then people give you also better quality. And when you collaborate also with partners such as officers, for example, who are also interested in contributing to sustainability goals, then all of a sudden you have a completely different story and with that case we can collect textiles of a high quality and get also paid for the collection of textiles, which is actually also very much needed because, yeah, the quality of textiles in general is a problem and we must find and at mood we are finding good ways and how to collect them and then also to further process them I think that's really smart what you do there and you have with this strategic partner as a book group a really amazing fit as a partner and you kind of innovate even their business model right.

Carl:

So this is how you collect a lot of textiles now. What also scales your business model is what you mentioned before, these b2b upcycling cases of really iconic brands. If you will like dhl and I still remember the I believe it was vetmo this french luxury brand reminds me a little bit of supreme um, that, I think, sold dhl shirt for like 600 euros or something and everybody loved it. Um, so you can really make with a brand like that like something crazy. What do you do with, with stuff like that?

Michael:

yeah, so in the case of dhl, but also with with other corporate partners of ours, we develop upcycling concepts for and with them. In the case of dhl, we take discarded corporate textiles. So you can imagine a company in the size of DHL. They have a lot of textiles, although they're not a textile company, but almost every employee at DHL has a lot of corporate branded textiles. And what do you do with these textiles after they're not in use anymore?

Michael:

We found a very good answer because, instead of treating discarded corporate textiles as a cost center, we are turning this into a business case. So we take discarded corporate uniforms from DHL and produce pillows, we produce bags, we produce laptop sleeves, whatsoever out of these corporate material and then give it back to dhl. And dhl sells upcycled corporate products very successfully. So we've upcycled already tons of material only for dhl. We're also doing that, of course, with other companies, but that's also a radical shift that we enable companies to put a cost center actually into a business case. So taking existing material, reusing material, must not be seen as an investment, in a sense of I'm burning money there, but also as a business case. I'm earning money there. Dhl and other partners of ours they earn money with our upcycling.

Carl:

So dhl and and your other corporate partners. They do mostly sell then these products to end customers as well. Or is it also being used a lot for internal usage or as giveaways on a fair or something like that?

Michael:

that very much depends on the company, so sometimes they use it internally for their employees. Sometimes it can also be used as giveaways, but very often these companies sell these products. We work a lot in professional sports, so we collaborate with many clubs in the german bundesliga, for example. They all run fan shops. Or we collaborate with music festivals. They all sell merchandise and with the help of mood, they sell upcycled merchandise and, yeah, transform discarded material into profit you mentioned before.

Carl:

So, speaking of football clubs, you mentioned the german national league as well. That reminds me also of all the merch that is probably not coming directly from adidas or like the official merch, but also all the merch you can get in like discount stores and giveaways, and I believe you also have a cooperation with, uh, like lidl, right, like a big supermarket chain.

Michael:

Yeah, yeah, we uh we also work with uh, with lidl. Um there are like, when you take a closer look, um there are many companies dealing with textiles. So you uh definitely have, you definitely um don't have to be a textile producing company um to to have textiles in your uh, in your corporate processes um supermarkets, logistics companies, um we, we work also a lot with big corporates like Deutsche Bahn, for example. They all have corporate uniforms and, of course, these are very interesting corporate partners for us.

Carl:

I think you once told me the story of all the merchandise from the Europe Cup in Germany.

Michael:

Yeah, the merchandise from the europe cup in germany, yeah, um. So, speaking about sports, um, last year there was the european championship, um, the football um championship in germany, and uh, you cannot imagine how many banners, torplins, for examples are produced for such an event. When you go to a stadium or when you go to one of the host cities, you will see the whole city is full with flags, banners, whatsoever. And what happens with all these, with all this material, afterwards? Well, in this case we partnered with dfb, with the german football association, and produced upcycled articles out of banners, for examples.

Michael:

And this is a super interesting case because we are, in that sense, not only the supplier of a product, but we also act as an strategic partner, as an advisor to these companies. Because, when you think about it, it will always be the case that we produce new products, new material for a specific event. So when there is an event, such as a european, it won't be possible to go there with zero banners. That also should not be the goal. But when we produce something new, we can already take into account the question well, what are we going to do with it after? And when you produce a new banner, you can already integrate the upcycling process afterwards and then even sell the upcycle product on site, for example, so you can already sell the upcycle product to the people going to the stadium, telling them look the upcycle product in front of you that has been used two weeks ago in the stadium. And that's what we develop with with different partners right.

Carl:

I mean that that becomes a totally go, even one step earlier in the whole process. And how do you design your product in the first place so that it can be then upcycled again at a later stage? That's super interesting. I also remember very interesting examples. I think was it katjes and fishermen's friends? Yes, yeah, share more about that concept. I thought that was really funny.

Michael:

Yeah, so we are not only working with classical textiles or uniform home textiles or technical textiles banners, flags, whatsoever but we are also capable of upcycling different material, in this case packaging. So we partnered with different consumer brands and take their packaging material. This can be post-industry packaging material or post-consumer packaging, both, both is possible um, and this can then also be, yeah, transformed into very iconic products. So, um, if you, uh, if we went in munich, but in zurich, for example, um, then you could, for example, buy upcycled fisherman's friend products which are super iconic. Um, actually, just one day ago I was checking that it's almost 100% sold out, and that's also for companies in the packaging area or with other consumer products. Super interesting to think about reusing the packaging material with Mood and I believe in that can these fishermen's friends in switzerland.

Michael:

They even incentivize their customers by sending back the old packages right, instead of throwing them away and then you can collect points or something like that exactly so there are, um, besides the uh, the product itself. There are so many ways of how we collaborate with, with partners and and help them implementing yeah, upcycling concepts at scale where they earn money with. In this case, I believe it's a perfect combination of sustainability, or like circular economy program and marketing customer loyalty program, because you, as a swiss person, you get some of these products only when collecting your old packaging and then sending it back, so first you have to buy some fisherman friend sachets and then you can get as a reward afterwards these upcycle products I think that's a great inspiration for a lot of companies that hopefully are listening, because because especially marketing and you know, merchandise is usually such a waste of material in general, so I think, uh, yeah yeah, I think just to to add that that's the.

Michael:

It's a biggest impact that we have when collaborating with partners that we really help them to understand that something that they currently see as a cost center can be turned into not only marketing but also into a business case, into profit. You can really make money with reusing material and we already have a great experience, expertise in in doing that, and also the the companies that we collaborate with. The feedback that they get then from their customers is so great that it's, yeah, always long term partnerships that we have with these companies.

Carl:

So I think it's a very unique aspect or like concept that we that we found with this upcycling approach I think yeah, I mean everyone listening should think, hey, can we do something like that as well with our company and everyone, especially producing workwear, for example, that is being recycled, in best case, every month, even, because they have tons of that and have to hand it over to, probably, the board group to take care of the recycling. They could even just raise that question like, hey, you know, can we at least part of it also upcycle? Um, so, yeah, so since we met that first time, I'm I'm such a big fan and and um, try to advocate uh mood as much as I can. Let's also talk about a bit of the problem in the collection market, and I think you I mean you're aware of it because you collect yourself and you're partnering with a big collector how do you see the whole issue with the collection and sorting infrastructure in europe?

Michael:

yeah, currently it's very complicated, um to collect textiles. Um, we briefly touch this topic um, currently the collectors don't earn enough with the value of a container and that is that. That equals the, the expenses that they have when doing the collection. Now everybody is looking towards the holy grail EPR solution. I think it's good that there will be EPR solutions in Europe. In some countries there are already EPR solutions in Europe. In some countries there are already EPR solutions implemented.

Michael:

I believe the current feedback that we see, for example, from French recyclers or from companies in the Netherlands, is kind of depressing, because there they already have an EPR scheme implemented and we see, well, the EPR is not the sole solution to this big problem.

Michael:

In the end, we are all consuming too many textiles and the current very linear model does not work. And with fast fashion, ultra fast fashion, you simply build up a system which is, yeah, really about to collapse. If you sell a product for one euro, it is very logical that you cannot earn a lot of money with reselling this product if the new product already costs one euro. So all of the textile collectors and all of the textile sorters, they try to get the good material. But the good material. This is the good material. This is then, yeah, products which maybe were produced not one year ago, but maybe 10 years ago, and that's that's very complicated that these collection companies really can can still run their operations with the current quality of fast fashion or even ultra fast fashion textiles, even when the high quality textile was not produced 10 years ago but a year ago.

Carl:

first of all, it lasts a bit longer, so, yeah, probably doesn't immediately end up in a container bit longer, so, yeah, probably doesn't immediately end up in a in a container. But secondly, people are now more and more aware of second-hand platforms, which is also good, yeah, but it's not really helping the collection and sorting infrastructure, because until a couple of years ago, they really still had a lot of these materials that they could then sell for good money.

Michael:

yeah, that's um, that's the case so very often um textiles which end up in a container. They are not, then, second hand, but sometimes even third or fourth hand textiles, because before they have been already sold on vinted and eBay two or three times. That makes it complicated and this, I believe, underlines even more the urge to find smart ways to collect textiles of a high quality. Of course, recycling, downcycling are very crucial instruments to turn this whole industry into a more circular one place in this whole equation, because sometimes textiles have a lower value for resellers but also for recyclers. But when you also start sorting for upcycling, then all of a sudden you can increase the value of certain products.

Michael:

Imagine a bed sheet, for example. This has a value of a euro or maybe 150. This can be a raw material for upcycling companies and then you produce out of one bed sheet maybe three t-shirts which you then sell for 50 euros, and then of course, also other partners profit from that value increase. So upcycling does not only attract textiles of higher quality, but also out of the sorted textiles you increase the value overall because certain textiles can be used in a different way, right.

Carl:

So what you're saying is we need smarter collection. So what you're saying is we need smarter collection, like obviously automized sorting, not only for recycling but also for reuse and for upcycling, and then I guess still we can talk about regulation, because the EPR schemes are supposed to help, and I think we have several problems, at least in Europe right now, with one and that's the most crucial one. A lot of EPR schemes are probably set up in the entirely wrong way, and I think you have one example that you can share, where it maybe doesn't really work. The second thing is a more system problem. I think in europe that we have that every country does develop their own system, so it's then highly fragmented and very diverse yeah, yeah, maybe let me start with the second one.

Michael:

so, um, I think it's a big mistake of the european um union to implement epr or to having implemented um, epr, um as a directive. So there are two ways of how the european union can implement a new legislation. It can be either a directive or a regulation. Directive meansive means please, members of the European Union, do this, but find your own way, or you all have to do it this way. In this case, as a directive, we will then end up having 27 or 28 different EPR schemes within the European Union, which is a nightmare, but also the EPR schemes which the European Union, which is a nightmare, but also the EPR schemes which are already in implementation or which have already been implemented, show that there are still systemic problems which fail to address the current market needs.

Michael:

To address the current market needs. We see that, for example, in the Netherlands, where one player of this textile value chain receives money In this case it's the sorting companies, so they receive money from a certain fund, but this injection of money to one player in the market or to one group of players in the market came to a situation where then the closest partners in this case the sorting companies, but then also automotive companies who take downcycled materials whatsoever that they then go to the sorters and tell them well, okay, so now you get some money from the state, so now we must reduce the price or we must increase our selling price to you, because you should have a higher financial means. But the sorters simply need the money to survive, and that's very hard to or that's very devastating to see that this experiment, as it is implemented right now, does not work. So I really hope that the German government learns from the current development, especially in the Netherlands, but also in France, and that we find a better way for an EPR scheme.

Carl:

I hope so too, and, as you know, I'm working at the moment on a big project with Circular Republic, as a non-profit, to unite the entire value chain of the textiles industry in order to come up with a blueprint for how the EPR scheme should look like and, in best case, next year also on a voluntary basis, start a voluntary E started a voluntary epr scheme already, which I hope is an inspiration for the politicians to implement it the right way in europe, in in germany. Is there one country in europe where you say they've done it already pretty good or best practice?

Michael:

um, there, besides um france and the netherlands, there is an epr scheme in hungary, in croatia and, I believe, in lithuania.

Michael:

Um, I cannot say anything about the three other countries. So I think we are at this moment all figuring out what the best solution is. To be honest, I also don't have a blueprint in mind of how that should look like, but I'm very much convinced that we need to find a regulation for the amount of textiles which are sold in Europe. We have a market which is already served, so no one in europe actually needs more textiles. But for whatever reasons, we are selling more and more textiles every year, and by increasing the amount of available products in a market, we are always fighting for a lower price, and the lower price for a first selling product always means we will have it even harder or it will get even more complicated to reuse this product and to reuse it also for a reasonable price, and I think this is very hard to tackle because this will also go against many convictions or political views. But I'm convinced that there must be a way to reduce the amount of textiles being sold in.

Michael:

Europe every year.

Carl:

Amen to that. Yeah, I don't know how that's going to be regulated, but it will be definitely good for the environment. You already said it you don't have a blueprint or the best practice idea. That would have been my next question, because these are actually my last couple of days in Germany and Europe as I'm moving to the united states, and in california is also now coming up an apr scheme and I'm there also involved with the california product steward stewardship council a tongue breaker for me and um, trying to figure out how can it look like there, and obviously they look a lot to europe and what we are doing here, um, but even here is, uh, maybe some good things that we can take away, but mostly, I believe, learnings and on how not to do it or what can go wrong.

Michael:

I think what the US especially can learn from Europe is, in general, increasing the collection rates. So what we are very good at. I think that's also sometimes important to highlight what's also working.

Michael:

I mean we also don't want to complain all the time, but in Europe we have a very good collection and sorting scheme still, so let's hope it does not collapse completely within the next years. But as of now we actually have a very good collection scheme, at least in a central europe or in western europe. We collect and we sort a very high amount of all the textiles which are available, so we don't have any textiles which end up on the streets in landfills whatsoever. So there is a good waste management overall and I think that is something that others can really learn from Europe. So we also manage to sort textiles very well before they get further processed.

Michael:

Further processed in this sense means sent to or used as second hand, either within europe, within I don't know asia, within africa, but we can make sure that qualities, even when they are getting exported in europe, that they have a decent quality, and this is very often not the case in the US and also in other regions in the world. So in terms of waste management we are very good here in Europe. But of course it also cannot be a solution to just export waste, but we must find at least continental solutions to reuse our material Also from a resource point of view. Cotton is getting more expensive and the raw material which we already have here in europe can also be reused.

Carl:

so we don't have to, yeah, plant new, new cotton all over the world, but we can also reuse material which we already have here right, and how hard can it be to implement a nationwide collection scheme smart collection in the US and then automize sorting and with all the recycling technologies coming up with, so much money is going into so much investment capital to provide feedstock for them to implement new upcycling cases, like Mood does. So in theory it should be simple.

Michael:

So let's see where it goes to and you start. If I may just add that you start with a green field, so I think that's nice.

Carl:

How exciting is an entrepreneur?

Michael:

Yeah, how exciting is that. So I think that's actually a very nice opportunity.

Carl:

I agree, I agree, let's see, see. I'll keep you posted on what's happening over there. Now coming to an end, where do you see? Mood in the next year is like what are, what is your plan? How do you want to scale your company and your solution?

Michael:

well, mood will grow, first of all with being the upcycling enabler in europe. So whenever someone wants to do something with upcycling, especially with textiles, then there will not be way around mood, because we know all details, hurdles, obstacles, possibilities when it comes to upcycling and we are very happy being the go-to upcycling service provider. We will work with many new and also existing corporate partners new and also existing corporate partners, um, but we will also um scale um towards textile companies. So of course, as I said in the beginning, we work a lot with corporate wear and, but we will also upcycle for the textile industry, so, um sooner or later.

Michael:

We are already in a pilot phase working with textile companies, but we are currently also working successfully in expanding these partnerships and scaling these partnerships, because upcycling will have a similar path as secondhand, I believe. So secondhand in the sense of secondhand is a completely different business model as selling a virgin product, and the same is for upcycling. Upcycling is completely different than secondhand. Upcycling is completely different than selling a first-hand product, selling a first-hand product, and we are very confident to be the partner of big textile companies when it comes to implementing upcycling concepts at an industrial scale and you do not have.

Carl:

I mean, there are a couple of players who also do upcycling and and you probably competitors, but I have not seen like big competition for you in that field yet. There is, however, a big textile company like hugo boss. In that sense, hugo boss came up with a, with a concept very similar to yours, which could be seen as a competitor, but actually they do it for themselves. So it probably is rather tailwind for what you do, because now everybody realizes there is a business around it, there is something you can do with it. What does FukuBoz do here and how do you?

Michael:

look at it. Yeah, first of all, all I 100 agree with you because I think it's a great proof of market, um, that, uh, yeah, a four billion euro company like uh hugo boss, um, also also starts looking closer on upcycling. They focus more on post-industrial waste. We also do that with other textile partners that we already work with, and I think it's a great, great proof of market, seeing that global companies are going more into upcycling, and there for sure, will be other companies following such an approach. Um, and yeah, then it will be the a question that the respective management of these companies then have have to do we want to build this ourselves or do we want to partner with others who are capable of doing that already? So that's, I think, a very good outlook for us at Mood, and therefore I'm very much looking forward to what the future holds for us.

Carl:

Me too, michael. Thank you so much for your time today and for coming to Munich, and all the luck in the world for Mood Michael Brenner.

Michael:

Thanks so much, karl, it was a pleasure.