LOOPED IN with Carl Warkentin

Inside China’s Circular Textile Revolution: From Manufacturing to Recycling with CKG Director Vincent Djen

• Carl Warkentin • Season 1 • Episode 16

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What does a truly circular textile business look like when you operate both a factory floor and a recycling line? We sit down with entrepreneur Vincent Jin to map the entire loop—from shrinking order sizes and digitized sewing lines to China’s door‑to‑door collection networks feeding textile‑to‑textile recyclers. The story starts with a family manufacturer shaped by early Scandinavian sustainability demands, and then accelerates as DTC, tariffs, and lead‑time pressure force radical flexibility and a service‑first mindset.

Vincent opens up about the nuts and bolts of recycling at scale: why pre‑sorting still relies on skilled hands, where AI sorting falls short on dark colors and complex blends, and how preprocessing into pellets or popcorn meets the purity specs of chemical and enzymatic recyclers. We explore the rise of microfactories as a tool to slash overproduction—keeping core styles in traditional lines while local, on‑demand units handle reorders, collaborations, and regional spikes within days. Along the way, we unpack the real power of transparency through chain‑of‑custody, LCAs, and the coming digital product passport, which ties material truth to a simple scan.

The conversation doesn’t shy away from hard questions: Can sewing be fully automated? Why do blends and trims still block circularity? How will fast fashion evolve as T2T capacity scales in China and beyond? Vincent shares a pragmatic ten‑year outlook driven by robotics, smarter design for recycling, and brands that think like operators—fast, open, and data‑literate. If you care about ethical sourcing, EPR readiness, and the future of circular fashion, this is a rare, ground‑level guide to what’s working, what’s not, and what’s next.

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Carl:

Welcome everybody for another episode of Looped In with Carl Warkinton, where we dive in with experts and entrepreneurs deep into the field of the entire value chain of the textile industry. So today I'm excited to speak to somebody who is very active as an entrepreneur and also covering various parts of the textile value chain. And I'm very happy to have you here from China, Vincent Jin.

Vincent:

Hi Carl, thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

Carl:

Beautiful. Yeah, I couldn't wait for our episode to start because you have a very special situation that you are yourself in, being on the one hand, a producer, but also a collector, sorta, and recycler for textiles in China. So please tell us a little bit more about yourself.

Vincent:

Okay, thanks. Yeah, I'll I'll I'll start with a little bit about my uh background. So uh I I was born in a uh uh in into the industry. My parents started uh a family business CKG 50 years ago in Hong Kong. So that was 1975 before I was even born yet. So um, and then in uh 2000 uh 2005, I uh joined a company after studying in uh North America for high school and uh college for about 10 years. I joined the family business. Uh at that time the uh the business was very different. It was um, but it was the beginning stage of uh the I would say the modern day of uh sustainability. That was the first time I heard the term sustainability in the industry. Um we were uh uh we we used to we we do a lot of uh uh European brands, especially, especially in the uh Scandinavian market. So they they uh they were quite early uh adopters of uh sustainability, like worker safety, workers well-being. Um and uh also later on moved to the uh material side and the circular and low impact materials and so on. So we learned quite a bit from the our customers. And then uh and I got really into it because uh I had some engineering background. I thought this is wow, this is quite cool. And you know, I like technology and things. So um sustainability, I feel like there's a lot of technology, new, new tech involved. So I I got really excited and then I dig into it more, and then um later on I uh started a um fashion accelerator with my friends. It was about eight years ago, and then it connected me with a lot of different people in the industry just across the spectrum from uh people in the uh circular fashion, people in the uh uh tech uh fashion tech side, you know, like uh smart textiles and so on, and also the brand side. So, but I I felt like uh textile recycling uh was something that that I really have deep passion on. I think because um I like to take things apart. So turn used clothes, taking them apart, putting back in the loop, or uh upcycle or recycle or or resell. It really is something that it's uh I felt like uh I have the the true passion on. So I and then about yeah, five, six years ago, I I started uh uh CTR with uh one of the uh my current partner right now. So we've we actually connect with each other uh through during the days I was in doing the uh accelerator. And then uh we both have passions on trying to tackle the uh uh uh textile waste issues, particularly the uh post-consumer uh textile waste. So and then yeah, off we go. And then till now we're uh doing this uh textile recycling, providing um high purity, valuable uh post-consumer feedstocks to chemical or enzymatic recyclers. Yeah, it's uh quite an exciting journey, I would say.

Carl:

Oh, yeah, it is. Um and beautiful how holistic your approach is. Uh, one doesn't come across someone in the industry too often who kind of is already having a almost circular business model by being the producer and collector, sorter, and recycler. Um, so you really cover a lot, and then also in a in a big economy in China, because there's so much talk uh here in Europe. Um, I personally moved to the United States a couple of months back where there is some talk about it, but not as much, to be honest. And um yeah, now also looking a bit deeper into the Chinese market, I think is is what I'm really excited about today. So before we go into the recycling part and CTR, um, let's dive a bit into CKG, your family business, to the production side of things. How would you say did production change over the last years in general?

Vincent:

Um in the last few years, in uh uh there's big changes. I think uh geopolitical uh issue is when it's a uh it's a dark cloud that it's uh hanging very low, uh, so that it's affecting the industry a lot. Uh a lot of the uh uh manufacturer, they will uh start uh a factory, a joint venture, or some sort of have some kind of uh production base in uh Southeast Asia or other places, mainly in Southeast Asia, because uh the culture and uh it's a little bit closer to uh Chinese. So Vietnam and uh it's it's the main uh destination, and then some people will go to uh Indonesia. Um and if we look at the industry as a whole, um the biggest change I would say is uh it's the the quantity, the volume. I remember back in the days in the ear in the 80s, um a normal volume style would be like maybe 50,000, 60,000 pieces. There was no such a thing as like the thousand pieces or something like that. That was uh that wasn't that wasn't even not even heard of. And now we are uh for us CKG we we adopted the industry, uh the change in of times. We we even do like two, three hundred pieces, sometimes even a hundred pieces per style for our customer. It's just uh the market has changed. Uh there are a lot more brands now than back in the 80s. Uh the technology, the business model has changed. Technology that you have now, D DTC, a lot of DTC brands out there, and they are they want to do smaller volume and uh quicker turnarounds. Uh fast fashion, fast fashion has changed the industry a lot. Um, they push brands to uh do a quicker, more flexible supply chain so that uh to have uh less inventory risk and um uh technology, I think um digitization. Uh back in the days, you know, you you will uh measure the um factory performance, the sewing lines performance using paper and pencils, like punch cards or something. Everybody will have a little card mark down how much they produce, the line manager would double check. Now you have these uh automated uh digitization boards that connect it to uh each sewing station and then will connect it to a whole dashboard, and someone can sit maybe six, seven time zones away, can monitor the uh what's happening real time in the uh on the factory sewing floor, and then that can connect to the uh the brand's uh ERP system or ordering system to see how it goes. So I think it's um on that side it's it's changed a lot nowadays. I think as a manufacturer, we we haven't uh gone uh overseas yet. We are still uh producing uh in in uh China, but uh we have to be very flexible and uh adapt to the changing times, yeah.

Carl:

What what had to happen on your end to be able to adjust from 20 to 60,000 pieces to two to three hundred pieces? Did you did you need to adjust your technology as well, your machinery? Because I assume you can't just increase the costs per unit so much that it makes sense. I assume there are some sort of adjustments on the production side.

Vincent:

Uh the most important thing I think is the uh the mindset of the entire team. We can no longer just say, nah, we're not gonna do the 2300. Nah. We once the mindset changes, once we say, okay, 2300, let's do it, then uh things flow easily. Then we adjust the line to be smaller. Uh because we do a lot of outerwear. Uh so for bigger volume, you will probably want to use a sewing line that is maybe 30-ish people. Now it can be done in uh lesser, uh shorter line, smaller line. And um we also have uh very close factory partners that uh uh that are smaller, that have maybe two, three production lines in their facilities that can uh together we we we help our brand uh clients to tackle all these uh small orders, uh quicker turnarounds.

Carl:

Being on the production side, you you know, you realize what are the market trends as one of the first people in the industry because of what the brands are gonna order with you. What in general, what do you feel is the industry going towards, and what does it also mean for the sustainability side of things?

Vincent:

Uh I think the industry is moving towards uh uh more flexibility, especially for Asian um manufacturers. Um we we have uh two major disadvantages. Uh one is uh import duty tariffs, the other is uh transportation lead time. Uh we try to make it back up with our um strong supply chain ecosystems. So what it means is that we have to um be more flexible, be quicker, uh be more service oriented. We're a manufacturer, we have uh two facilities, we but we still look at ourselves as a as not as a uh factory or manufacturer. We are a service company because we are servicing our clients. We have to have that mindset. Um that means we need to communicate with our customers uh quicker, uh more transparent, more open way, so they know what's happening and uh we understand what they want and and try to find a solution so that we can make up some of our defense disadvantages. Because um the last few years it's it's uh there are more and more talks uh near shoring or move the production closer to home or uh China plus one plus two. There's a lot of things. So we there's there's a lot of headwinds. Um even though China has a very big major domestic uh market, um, but even the domestic market is moving towards uh quicker turnarounds because they can utilize the uh quick delivery, uh like drop shipments and different uh uh business model so that they can uh carry less uh inventory risk. So at the end of the day, I think it's um it's all about how to the brands are thinking how to minimize uh inventory risk, how to have faster sell-throughs, how to I can sell at a uh uh lesser markup. Yeah, and then we we as a manuf uh service company will have to help them um providing the right materials, right uh prices and lead time, yeah, to compete with uh uh the different manufacturers, different uh uh companies around the world.

Carl:

It seems like you are already at the forefront and being very innovative and adjusting to market needs. If we take that all a bit further down the line, then they the next step would be microfactories. And the last time we spoke, we talked also about Rudinia Generation, a company that I'm a chairman of, basically creating a onshore, on-demand microfactory concept for textiles. How do you look at something like that? Is it something you can ignore? Is it something you develop yourself or you generally are interested in partnering with? How do you see that?

Vincent:

Yeah, um I I uh listened to that episode and I looked through the deck. It's really interesting. This is something I think um uh it's it's uh it could really be disruptive because like for the local market in China, uh we we do uh do the local market as well. Um there's always uh issue is like, oh, they want to there's uh this disorder sells very well, they need to do a quick reorder. Uh it's it's still challenging, even though we are just right there because uh fabric lead time and all these things. Um especially we do elderwear that's separately time. Um so if there's microfactories, uh, we could really help uh tailor to the brands maybe a certain in uh certain region of the China market. This product provide them with like quicker turnarounds, and so that can can carry uh lesser risk. Um and I think it's um it's uh we we we have something uh kind of like them. Um like in the uh uh sportswear industry, there's people like uh doing like sports jerseys for like locals, local teams, amateur teams or semi-professional teams doing their jerseys like that. But they're all mainly uh just for sports jerseys, like polyester race. So I think um their uh their approach or the old factory approach is it's quite exciting. I I can already, while I was reading it, I was already already imagining it's like where I could potentially put this uh uh um system in where I can like provide value to the uh local brands or local entrepreneurs uh to provide them with these kind of services. It's I think it's it's it's inevit inevitable, I think, we will move towards a smart, more flexible type of manufacturing.

Carl:

I agree, and and I also don't believe that this is initially like a threat to the current production system because every brand that has large quantities to produce can still produce in large quantities. It's just that maybe we can eliminate this around roughly 30% overproduction in the market and rather you know produce the core stock with traditional manufacturing and then you know, wherever needed with local microfactories, produce on demand within a couple of days whatever is needed wherever it is needed.

Vincent:

Yeah, exactly. I think um they're great for uh these uh collaborations um for some special uh collections. That's that's perfect. It's uh those are the type of styles you won't produce a lot and you don't want to take a lot of inventory risk. If you can provide produce them really just in time, it's it's wonderful. It creates uh less uh uh textile waste at the end too. So it it it's a win-win, I think.

Carl:

I know for a fact that you are like very much focusing on sustainability when it comes to production, and even on your website you talk about ethical sourcing and sustainable production. What does that actually mean for you and for your business?

Vincent:

It means um transparent. We uh knowing the source, knowing our our where we get our materials from, knowing our partners, really know them, uh, and then provide that information and being open and talk about it to our uh customers. Um I think that's uh very appreciative from from our client side. It's about telling them where we produce, uh what we are using and uh what we can offer them.

Carl:

Yeah. And what does the market at the moment require regarding sustainability? I just briefly talked to a major German sports brand, and it looks like sustainability is not on their radar anymore since the market condition is pretty challenging at the moment. Do you feel that as well? That uh people are actually fading away a bit from sustainability.

Vincent:

Uh I think I think um there are definitely there's some a bit fade away because I think the challenging market conditions, maybe there's less budgets to do some um innovative projects or putting them like uh a little bit down the road to start. Um but I think uh the fact that the the brands are committed using certified materials and um are are still there, at least from what I see from our client sides that they're still committed in using uh certified materials, they're still committed in to uh um being transparent. Um they're still committed in uh even uh try to do some innovation, innovative projects. So I think it's still there. It's just um uh different brands maybe have different priorities. Uh they have uh different market position. It could mean different things for them.

Carl:

You talk about transparency. My question would be to you, what do you think about the concept of the digital product passport? Uh would that also help your you know recycling business if if products had a digital product passport?

Vincent:

Yeah, I think the digital passports have um uh it's it's interesting in a way because um it's changed the way how uh companies like us and how brands source. Um before I think we you can just buy some material somewhere and then you put it in the production line. Now you need to know where you're buying, and um you have to have the chain chain of custody. Um we've been we've been used doing uh like GRS and uh RDS, RWS um certifications through the whole chain for quite some time. So the digital passport, it seems like a uh a uh natural progression to that because uh when we uh uh when we have to um do our uh transaction certifications, we need to know uh the sources because it's uh one chain after another. So you already have a chain of custody there. Uh digital passport is putting that into um into a QR code, and then somebody can scan and then you can look at it very clearly. So I I would say uh being able to issue these uh sort of certifications throughout the entire chain has helped us to be more prepared of uh the digital passport. We've also done some um LCA uh analysis of our products before. So um it helped our organization to know, okay, so uh when we do something like that, we need to know uh the sources. Uh we need to do a lot of calculations and uh checking. So I think uh in some way our mindset is ready for for that. And it it does it does definitely help the uh um our recycling business because uh uh brands want where brands want to know where their textile waste come from. Um in the past two two years, I would say there's a lot of brands come come visit us because they want to see firsthand. Um these are actual post-consumer textile waste. It's not pre-consumer. Or they want to see it's like, okay, when I go out and tell the market that I am providing textile to textile uh new materials, T2T new materials, we're actually buying it's really coming from what I'm saying, it's either pre- or post-consumer. And I can see that they can see that, and then they can put that into their chain of custodies. I think this creates an extra level of uh comfort and confidence. I remember one of our uh um textile waste uh clients, the uh we provide uh nylon feed stocks to them, and then one of their uh customers actually uh actually the the company, the the material company provide our contact information to that to their brand clients and say, here, that's where we got our uh post-consumer textile waste from. And then you feel free to visit them. So I think it creates uh uh a level of confidence and also uh new material companies can really use that to help in their promotion. It's about uh transparent because um there's a lot of T2T uh coming up in the uh in the pipeline, and I think um brands and uh material companies want to have that uh level of comfort and uh confidence.

Carl:

Yeah, right. Let's go to your uh recycling business, CTR. Tell us a bit about it. You mentioned before you do it now for roughly five years. Where do you stand with a company and and what kind of recycling technology are you focusing on?

Vincent:

I'd say when we started five years, five, six years that time, it was we're really uh we're we're not busy at all. There was no one visit us because um it's it's something new. Um friends are not very it's not it's on their roadmap, but not uh on their top on their priority list. Uh now it is. Um so we we we saw the uh evolution and um and it's it's changing fast. Um we we use AI sorting technology, but uh we're still trying to find something that or um look for some that it's uh has some more accuracy improvements because um in in our way of uh sorting, we do a pre-sorting and a uh and then a material sorting. Uh we pre-sort, meaning when uh whenever when all these uh textile waste comes in, it has everything from jeans, from to to a uh to blankets, to to school uniforms, to even like every now and then you find like um some plush toys, Mickey Mouse, or or something, or SpongeBob in there. You have to pre-sort them. So we pre-sort out the the uh a category, uh a category that we know that has a lot of uh it's mainly nylon or mainly cotton or mainly polyester, and then in it fits our uh downstream uh um the uh chemical or enzymatic recyclers, uh their their uh requirements, and then we will uh pre-sort those out, and then we take it, and then we will then do a um um composition verification to make sure that uh they have the uh high enough uh purity, and then we will pre-process them, turn them into pallets or uh popcorn form, and then send it to them. So um, but we we're seeing that um this process could change in maybe a year or two because um there are more and more production lines uh coming online in the in this realm, in the uh especially polyester. Um last I counted that I think there's about maybe 12 at least, uh chemical or enzymatic or some kind of chemical, mechanical, hybrid type of uh uh T2T recycle polyester recycler out there in China. So we were very closely monitoring how is that happening as well as what's happening in in other places in the world and to see how we have to change our process, the way we work, or um to to meet their uh demands.

Carl:

Did you develop that technology yourself or did you acquire a technology that you are working with?

Vincent:

Uh the AI sorting we didn't uh develop ourselves. We we tried it to do with some uh academics and some uh local partners, but um it was a long road. So we we're not doing that anymore. Um our recycle our collection process, it's uh it's through our partner. They're also one of our shareholders. So they they in a way they develop their collection um method on their own. They um they collect mainly online. Um so everyone in uh and then they collect about 100,000 tons of post-consumer textile waste last year. Uh so the process is just uh consumers in in China they can just use their mobile phone, open up uh WeChat or Alipay, and then they can uh through the mini program, they can uh make an appointment and have somebody uh to come pick it up at your door. Uh it's uh at least five kilos and up, and then they'll come pick it up at your door, and then they will uh either get some points or some rewards, or they can uh get some certifications, and and it's free. Uh they will get some uh incentive for doing that, and they don't have to pay for shipping.

Carl:

That is impressive in Germany and in Europe. A lot of these companies that pick up at people's homes went bankrupt because it didn't make so much sense financially. Even the bins on the street where we already have a huge infrastructure, especially in Germany, are going bankrupt because they don't find enough markets to sell the products to. How is it in China? Is there a EPR scheme or some regulations that support this kind of collection, or is there really such a big business case behind it?

Vincent:

Uh there it there is a business case because uh a lot of uh um these use closes off them are still uh like new, so there's a lot of resale uh cases behind it, and there's also uh downcycling. A lot of it's used for uh stuffing or you know, those shoddies for stuff. For installations and so on. I think it's because uh we're lucky we have a uh big um uh uh ecosystem uh supply chain here, so that uh these textile ways always have a place to go. So that's why there's uh economic behind that. Uh EPR, I think it's it's it's happening. Um the big local brands, they're starting to do something, uh, some kind of EPR. Uh there's some of them are uh already doing some research on collecting their own waste, collecting their old use clothes, and try to um put it back into maybe some of it put it back into their supply chain to close the loop, uh some of it to do some uh other uh products out of it. Um we used to have a lot of brands like um they would re use their cutting ways to make small bags and small little pouches to put their smartphones or labou in there. Uh because uh we we have the supply chain, so the factories are close to the brand. So it's easier for us to you know pick up some of these uh cutting scraps and then turn them into products. It's easier for us to um pick up some dead stocks and then to make some products out of them. Uh I I can see that the the local brands are doing more and more, and I think that's uh it's also uh it's uh because of the um the trend, the circular, the sustainable trend in the uh fashion industry has made these uh brands also to uh embrace these uh uh projects. Yeah.

Carl:

Do you see that there's still also in the future potential? I mean, I'm sure you're also looking into different markets like what's happening in Europe, where many of your clients are, and in Europe, we can ship any second-hand products anymore uh in that large quantities to Africa for um for reuse and because eventually it would end up in landfill. And also because there's actually a lack of demand in Africa and other third world countries, because there is so much new garments coming into those markets that are cheaper than the secondhand garments from from many European brands and and companies. How do you see that? Like, how how do you see this super fast fashion and and very cheap fashion that is out there? How do you see this as a threat to also your recycling business?

Vincent:

Um we we do see in the uh when we when we look into the um this the stuff we collect, there's all sorts of brands in there. There's fast fashion, there are sports brands, there are knockoffs, there are all kinds of things in there. Um the fast fashions, I think uh a lot of times it it depends on their and on the product they're making. Some of them has value, some of them don't have much value that we have to uh some of them have high resale value because uh they are very uh trendy stylish styles. Uh some of them if they're make of uh so those are good for resale, uh if they are like new. Um some of them, if they are uh white color cotton, high cotton blend, they can be have value as well. We can you can make it for using to make some machine rugs or something. If it's dark colors, uh if it's um cotton brands, then it's it's for downcycling. Uh but if it's uh polyester or something that's uh dark colors, we we could it could go to the T2T the waste streams. So it's uh it does depend on the the materials they use. I think if they are um mono materials and don't have a lot of uh bells and whistles on like trims and things on there, it has more value uh for us. But it of course has to be in good conditions. If it's all in bad, poor conditions, it could only be downcycled or uh it has to be good enough for T2T. So uh I think I think the the the the ultra-fast fashion or the fast fashion, they they push the industry to be more flexible in terms of manufacturing and product development. But um uh whether how to close the loop, I think it's still a part that I think all the brands need to uh start to think more. Um because um if you have a lot of blends and so on, it it's still hard to to to to uh to do T2T on it. It's only have down cycle usage. Um I think I think when when we're looking at blends, it's just it's better to be you know 8020 or 7525, that type of blends. It it could help. But but the industry, I think it's the the T2T, the downstreams are gonna change, I think, their the requirements of feed stocks. There are there are companies they say they could um because you you always mix them in a pile, uh so you can have some uh higher purity mixed with some lower purity and mix them together, and you still can have a decent uh percentage of uh purity in there. So there are some that can take a little lower uh purity, maybe 75% polyester, or and instead of let's say 90%. So it could help, but I think um it's still hard because the fast fashions um they're they're they have a lot of different types of uh styles in there. You have like short blouses, tank tops, tube tops, tunics, you have all kinds of different categories in there. So to sort them out to down to each composition, it's also a a challenge. It's just because uh we have so many different kinds of um clothing in there. We can easily can can sort them by up to 60 or 70 different different uh uh waste streams, uh different categories. Yeah.

Carl:

Do you sort automatic already?

Vincent:

Uh no, we we in uh in the pre-sorting is still mainly by uh by hand, by uh workers. Um it's because um it's because when they when they it's it's hard to sort all by AI. We we always talk about that. How how can we sort all these by machines? One challenge is uh when you when you sort these clothes, the workers pick them up, they look, and then they can say, okay, this is a tunic, okay, in in white color, feels like cotton, and can I put in the cotton bin. And then this is jeans, short denim jeans with emblem embellishments, and then I throw in the other categories. But if you buy machines, you need to teach them all these different categories, and you have to have enough data, enough clothing to feed them, to let them learn about each of them. And not at one challenge is that it's hard for machines to pick up a piece of clothing and then lay them flat perfectly on a conveyor belt. Humans don't need to lay them flat, they can just pick it up, look, and then throw it. So the time uh each the machine process and the human process, it's about the same, actually. Um the only thing is that uh uh humans, of course, workers get tired. We have have brakes, of course. Um if you want to have uh factories keep on doing, you need two or three shifts. Uh machines, you don't need that. So in the long run, machines will have a cost advantage. But at the right now, um it's still not um not yet, I would say, able to use uh machines to sort out all these. And if you want to sort like uh compositions, um the machines sometimes have a hard time to detect uh dark colors like black colors that are maybe dope dyed. Uh they have some kind of trouble uh identifying the uh type of clothing that has three blends in there, so it it still needs time to um for these machines to to have newer newer iterations and uh to evolve.

Carl:

Yeah. How important for uh that recycling business and also part of the collection business is the resale market? How important for that do you think is regulation from the government? As you see, like I'm just asking because in Europe and even now here in California, without the EPR scheme and the waste framework directive, there's almost nothing really happening because the business case is not there anymore. How do you see that in China?

Vincent:

Uh, I think the uh resale market is changing before resale has a bad uh stigma to it. Uh now it's uh I guess more younger people there, even some of the older people are starting to keep beginning to embrace these uh resale. I would say um resale hasn't it's not as uh as popular in in Europe, I would say, but it's it's growing in China. Uh people are selling uh secondhands online. There are shops uh in Shanghai. There are more and more shops just doing resales. So I think it's it's it's growing. Uh how big you it will grow, I'm I'm not quite sure. Um I don't think it will be like everybody at the end will be buying re uh secondhand. May I I cannot see that happening yet. Um, but I think it's it's a growing uh uh market, and uh I think brands and others already seeing this uh opportunities are are doing some um planning in in this uh in this segment. And um and also the government is also in China, it's it's also put promoting circular economy, is they're more open to the ideas of resale. And uh there are new new uh industry standards are coming on, coming in for uh for disinfections and and things like that. So I think uh resale will become more and more important part of the uh industry. Uh well why actually, yeah.

Carl:

Towards the end of our session, I always like to ask for an outlook from the person that I'm speaking with. And I'm especially curious about what you say because of your holistic view in your day-to-day business, and obviously also your position as an entrepreneur and founder, how do you see the the industry from the production as well as the recycling angle in 10 years from now? How what has changed until then in your day-to-day business? How much have you adjusted your your operations and your businesses? Have you you know built new solutions, additional businesses? How how do you imagine um positioning yourself in that?

Vincent:

Um I think uh we have to continue to adopt to adopt new technologies. Um just having cloed 3D, these time things, sampling, it's it's no longer good enough. I think we uh as a manufacturer uh provide uh sampling and production services for brands. We need to constantly try to improve our processes to make it more efficient and to make it more also surface uh mind minded. Um I think I think uh potentially robotics uh could have a bigger role, I think, in a few years' time than than right now, because of how fast the robotics are are are uh the industry is um is evolving. Uh before it's just uh robotic arms, like two, three axles robotics are maybe doing some standardized garments, uh just maybe in a few uh part of the steps. I think it could potentially be more uh widely adopted down the road. Uh so that means we as a manufacturer we need to invest into this. We uh more importantly, I think we need to be uh on the lookout constantly on these new technologies. Um on the recycling side, I think next year will be very interesting. Um a lot of T2T products are gonna be hitting the market, a lot of the capacities are coming online worldwide. Um how is the response, the market response, how uh the cost uh picture it it's it's gonna have a uh effect on um how companies and brands and these material startups and companies and so on to to do their planning, I think, two two, three years down. So I think I think T2T next year could be an inflection point, I'd say. Yeah, next year or next two years. It's it's uh it's it's quite exciting to see that. But also as an entrepreneur in this field, I think we have to be also be uh a bit paranoid, a bit uh really have to be sharp to see how the market can change rapidly. Um I sometimes see that industry, it's like an AI, internet industry, because it's evolving fast. Uh it's because of the legislations, it's because of the new technologies, especially with the the capacities that's coming in. Yeah. So it's how we're gonna invest down the road, I think uh it's it's something that me and my partners always are it's one of our main topics in during our conversations. How is it gonna evolve? We we always talk to different people, brands, and companies, and to see how evolve. We but it's it's exciting definitely. But um recycling, this this part is it's evolving fast. I think um we need to adapt to the really need to adapt to the change in the the the business of that in in a way more so than um uh uh the manufacturing, yeah.

Carl:

I agree. There's a lot of uh on the end of life, a lot happening right now. But just taking you back to the manufacturing part, because you mentioned also the robotics, there are as you talked about these microfactory concepts like Rudinia generation, and they are fully automized, which is amazing, but they lack still one part that is not automized, which is the sewing part. Do you believe we can automize and digitize the whole automization it all sewing of textiles?

Vincent:

Uh I I don't see that happening. I think maybe for some standardized products, maybe shirts, t-shirts, jeans, then jeans uh you can quite automize. You can uh have less and less uh uh uh workers involved, or workers can one workers can uh take on the responsibility of looking after more and more processes and machines. But if you're looking at less like doing fashion styles, uh it's hard. Even you do like a uh simple pair of pants, you know, have a couple pockets in the back and the front with waistband, without waistbands. To use um robotics to to fully automize, it's it's it's just challenging because the way we sew things, a lot of times you have to flip them, you know, flip them inside out. Uh, you have to pull something from the inside to the outside and sew it and then put it back. Um when you sew zippers and there's an area that you need to use your hand or a little tweezer to let the feeder to uh go over it slowly, there's a lot of parts that needs uh hands, needs skill workers. Um so I I I think I think for standardized things is maybe, yeah, but for fashions products, it's if you're making fashions, um, it's it's hard, it's really hard to fully automate it.

Carl:

Yeah. I see, yeah, it's a good point. Maybe we find a way to design products more in a way that we need less and less sawing in general. But um, I at least I've heard about startups focusing on that a little bit, um, which I found interesting.

Vincent:

Yeah. Vincent, thank you. But also the the consumers, there's also uh education part to the consumers because uh let's say you have been sewing your skill uh silk blouse, you know, uh with French seams for this, you know, for high-end brands. You you keep sewing this way, uh you you've but all of a sudden, because you want to use automations, they cannot do French seams, you have to use just overlock. Then the consumer says, Wait, is this like a lower quality product that I'm buying? Because I can see the seams are not as good as before. So there may be some uh consumer educations, like some communications have to do with to uh for the brands, the manufacturer to do with and communicate these with the uh end consumers. It's not we're trying to cutting corners, it's just uh we are um using automation instead.

Carl:

Vincent, thank you so much. Uh I think we could continue this conversation for a while. Thank you so much for taking the time today, and thanks for being here.

Vincent:

Thanks. Thanks, Carl. Thanks for having me.