Special LIVE Episode: Planning After Dark at UKREiiF 2026

Recorded live from UKREiiF 2026 in front of a packed audience, the PAD Pod team takes on the big questions facing planning, housing and development right now.

With special guests Paul Clark and Gavin Winbanks joining Alex Notay and Jackie Sadik (while Catriona Riddell battles serious FOMO from afar), this special live episode explores what happens when political turbulence collides with ambitious growth agendas.

From delivery versus policy, viability challenges and devolution, to place-based investment, local government reform and whether we’re celebrating success enough, the panel asks what actually needs to happen to turn planning permissions into places.

Plus: UKREiiF survival tips, debates about mayoral power, the case for stronger local leadership, and why maybe (just maybe) optimism matters more than ever.

Featuring audience contributions from across the sector, including discussions on housing delivery, investment, data, local authority leadership and what the industry should really be asking government for next.

Recorded live at UKREiiF 2026. Contains strong opinions, occasional woo-woo, and absolutely no ABBA.

Get in touch! Message us at ask@planningafterdark.co.uk

Planning After Dark is the bold and insightful podcast where three powerhouse women in planning and development - Alex Notay, Catriona Riddell, and Jackie Sadek - shine a light on the industry’s biggest challenges, trends, and, yes, even a bit of behind-the-scenes gossip.

From navigating the complexities of development to debating the future of our cities, Planning After Dark is the no-holds-barred discussion you won’t want to miss.

Powered by Cratus Group, new episodes drop monthly on all major streaming platforms.

Transcript

SPEAKER_10 0:04

Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to our very exciting Pad Pod Live. My name is Alex Note, and I am really thrilled to be here with my co-host, Jackie Sadek, and our extra special fan of celebrity guests Paul Clark and Gavin Windbaggs. Who's uh you may recognise their voices. We do have one missing pad podder missing in action.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

Where is our Katrina? Our terrible, it's just terrible. We are in absolute agony without Katrina, aren't we? She is floating off the Isle of Butte. Well, I think she's between Butte and Aaron. Dolphin watching at the moment. Her husband Graham is 60 this year, and they seem to be having a party every day of the year, from what I can gather, but she is suffering from enormous FOMO. You may have seen some of the socials today. She's going around with all sorts of billboards saying I'm not at UK Reef. She's virtually in tears. She will be with us in the room. Her avatar is with us, but she is not. At least there's no singing.

SPEAKER_10 0:59

Yes, no ABBA. We have been banned by virtually everybody say no ABBA with um Kacina not here. Um, and probably no fashion watch either, unless anybody wants to ask a question about that. But um, we will get into first of all, we are at live at UK Reef. UK real estate, I always get the eyes wrong, real estate infrastructure and investment forum. Yes. There we go. Excellent. It's a fantastic gathering of everybody involved in the built environment, in inward investment, in planning, and all the things that we're really interested in. At quite a busy time, so there's a lot going on, guys. But first things first, we're in tropical leads. The weather report is not looking.

SPEAKER_06 1:34

It's not looking great. Great. So as far as I can tell, and don't quote me on any of this, from what I've seen, it looks like it's raining tomorrow and Wednesday. And I'm not a meteorologist, but it says like 60% for most of the day with a spattering of um sunshine. The weather gets good on Thursday, of course, when everyone leaves, and then by Friday it'll be awesome. So none of us will be any the wiser.

SPEAKER_10 1:58

Great. So just for newbies who are here getting the what are what are the top tips for UK Reef to get the most out of it, apart from obviously an umbrella?

SPEAKER_06 2:05

So uh my top tips are I bought a new pair of shoes, so I've got something like really, really comfortable to wear. And if you are staying outside of Leeds, try and catch the train home. I think last year I ended up having to convince the cabbie to drive me back for Bradford by buying us both burgers on the way home. So I bought my own chicken schnitzelberger and he got a double chicken supreme or something like that. And that was the only way at two o'clock in the morning I could get him to take me back to the Premier Inn in Bradford. But it the job was done. That's my tip.

SPEAKER_10 2:36

Well, you know, good trick trip, travel trip.

SPEAKER_05 2:38

My top tip would be definitely don't buy new shoes the day before. They're trainers, they're trainers, they're trainers. It doesn't matter, I don't think it matters at all. So don't buy new shoes. I think my top tip would be I mean it's probably too late now, but it's all about the prep. It's all about the prep. And definitely try and avoid that cue to pick up your passes. I think it was a thing to behold last year. Yeah, and and and don't overfill your diary. I think it's all about you know those uh serendipitous, you know, meetings in you know, various bits, you know, various events. Can I have one more? Go on then.

SPEAKER_06 3:09

Um so my take is try and see as many people that you wouldn't normally see. And it seems self-evident, but if you're hanging out with the same people for the entire time, you should be at home. And I kind of think that kind of the network, the serendipity is great, and they're supporting clients and they're supporting people you know. But if every meeting that you're going to or every event you're going to, you haven't met someone new at the end of it, you've kind of missed the point, in my mind.

SPEAKER_10 3:34

Yeah, absolutely. Jackie, what about you?

SPEAKER_03 3:36

Well, I'm with I'm with Clarkey Boy here. I mean, new shoes. What an amateur. I'm sorry. I mean, really, the trainers. What an amateur. I mean, I'm I I I'm with you completely, I'm with the boys completely on on the tips. I would just say focus, absolutely focus on what it is you're trying to achieve and get that bit done. It is for newbies, it is like an anthill. You will be shocked. I mean, it really is. It's like brownie and motion, it's like going into a bag full of rats. It's uh it's just extraordinary. But enjoy it if you can.

SPEAKER_10 4:06

We have been deprived of fashion watch twice over, actually, because Paul, in our Christmas special, those who listen to it, Paul arrived wearing a fantastic our first bit of merch, a t-shirt with our logo on it and all of our faces. And he did a brilliant Superman reveal, which I was hoping we'd get another girl of the book.

SPEAKER_05 4:22

I've done a real rookie and checked it into my hotel.

SPEAKER_10 4:24

Okay, well, you're gonna have to wear it tomorrow.

SPEAKER_05 4:26

Tomorrow.

SPEAKER_03 4:26

So everyone can get their selfies with you.

SPEAKER_05 4:28

That's it, that's it, roving selfies.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

What does your Emily say about that t-shirt?

SPEAKER_05 4:32

Yeah, my wife's not a massive fan because I tend to wear it to bed and she's she said, Can't believe we're gonna bend a jacket. Um she said did say would you get rid of it in Leeds? So we'll see. Maybe we auction it off.

SPEAKER_10 4:48

Yeah, we could off. Oh, first bit of merch. Fantastic. So look, we we haven't got Katrina here, but actually, for anyone who wants to get her latest thoughts, she's posted something brilliant on LinkedIn, a really good post about the kind of government instability and the need for spatial development strategies. And this is something I wanted to get into, given with your inward investment expertise, Paul with you as a developer, Jackie with your kind of chair of everything. It's we are in these really strange times where there's so much to be optimistic about. There's unprecedented government support, there's the launch of the National Housing Bank last week, which I attended, which we know everybody in the room, loads of investors really wanting to get into housing in the UK, really strong commitments in all sorts of directions, but phenomenal political and economic instability and geopolitical tensions. So, you know, all the structures and the things we're putting in place around spatial development strategies and everything else, and and what do you think are the opportunities that are still here for the sector at UK Reef in these turbulent times?

SPEAKER_06 5:41

So, my kind of first take on it is to try and avoid the noise and the news as much as possible. And I think if we all kind of put our phones down for a few minutes and actually just allowed the initiatives that are coming forward to actually take shape and come to fruition, I think the speculation, I mean, around what's going on politically. I mean, I saw both West Streeting and Andy Burnham in their running gear, which is always a sign that they're running to be a candidate. I mean, the most literal articulation of I'm in the running is absolutely bonkers. But actually, it runs the risk of taking away from all the good work that's actually been going on over the last couple of years. And I think I would extol Katrina's post on LinkedIn to you around what does she call them? The strategic spatial investment frameworks. Spatial investment frameworks and how to actually bring this to life and actually working with the system to actually get stuff done. And I think, particularly because a lot of these are happening at a local level. One of the things is someone who worked in central government for an extended period of time, both there's a ton of officials that are still trying to get stuff done, and where they possibly can, in amongst the noise, they will try and keep on doing it. Most of the people that are working in the system have a default to action, and despite what you might hear. And then, secondly, it's incumbent on local places to really try and bring these projects forward and try and bring the framework together so that it actually has longevity beyond any politics and beyond what might be happening at the top of the tree. And Paul?

SPEAKER_05 7:08

Yeah, I think I I mean we operate, as you you know, we're fundamentally a hyper-local level in very local places. I think for us, actually, we're still trying to get to grips with the change in local government settings. Um so I tend not to spend too much time thinking about regions and beyond. So actually, I think what you were just saying, actually, though, is in trying to spend some time engaging with those officers on the ground and trying to work out how long ago was it? It was only a week or two ago, wasn't it? But it was trying to still try to get to grips with what that means, uh, let alone what's happening at the national level.

SPEAKER_10 7:42

Definitely. And we'll come back and dig into that local government in a second. But Jackie, just that that bigger picture.

SPEAKER_03 7:47

Delighted to see that uh Robert Colville was channelling his inner Katrina Riddell in yesterday's Sunday Times. I would commend that article and just goes to show we are winning the argument, and you know, on strategic planning and and and how marvellous is that. But I have to tell you, Alex, I am livid about what's going on nationally. I cannot quite believe it. I mean, arguably the Labour Party's done itself more damage in the last week than it did, than it than it suffered in the local elections. I mean, how very dare these people grow up, the lot of you, frankly. We have got 20,000 people about to descend on leads, some of them from the local authority sector, and in trying to do stuff on very, very tight margins, you know, in a very difficult circumstance, trying to do place-based local economic development for the good of our country. And we've got this lot arguing, you know, like rats in a sack. I mean, how very dare they? I mean, I really think it's shocking. And just one more thing to say, and I'm sorry, but this is what I think. Andy Burnham, you know, we love mayors in the podcast. We believe mayors have got, they've got are really are the answer to local economic development. But I mean, if I was a Manchester resident now, I'd be really cross about him just chucking in the, or potentially chucking in the towel, just in order to run for the leadership. I mean, there was that wonderful quote from Joseph Chamberlain about how he found he could do so much more as the mayor of Birmingham than he ever could be, you know, do when he was Prime Minister. And I think Burnham, having had all the rhetoric about mayors and about Manchester, really ought to stick to the knitting, frankly.

SPEAKER_10 9:17

And actually, it Manchester has been held up and has had so many successes with that mayoral model, and it's been you know, people are sort of trying to chase and replicate it. So, you know, do you think it is is fundamentally damaging to all as we've got this LGR coming forward, and we have, as you said, Paul, the kind of ripple effect from local government elections. I think it's fair to say that the level of fragmentation wasn't in the minds of the early policy makers of thinking about LGR. Do you think it's going to damage the combined authority in the kind of mayoral project, or do you think it will just carry on anyway and new candidates will come forward?

SPEAKER_06 9:47

My my first kind of thought is like it will just life will carry on. And one of the things that after having worked in Westminster, as you'd know, Alex, like the minute you step out of you, like, oh my god, there's actually a whole world out here, and the psychodrama of what happens there and what it takes to kind of get into it, it is a psychodrama. And and I think actually everyone else just kind of cracking on and delivering while that is still playing out. Manchester will continue to be amazing and continue to do great things, regardless of what is happening in terms of the leadership. And I'm being a bit kind of Pollyanner-ish and a little bit cute, but I just think it's all about the tools and the foundations of what actually exists within these places, rather than the personality. And I know the personalities are hugely important to local leadership, and that's why some places do better. I just think we all need to stop just getting so distracted by what's going on. There's so many hurdles yet to jump before he can even contend for it. The by-election, I'm not sure that it's even been called. He's got to win it, and then who knows what will happen at Manchester if he does win it. If they lose the mayoralty, that'd be a bit of a stain, I would have thought, on his legacy. If that is the outcome, that they lose one of the most important combined authorities. And um, so there's so many things to play at, and I think we're all busy thinking too far into the future and just dealing with what we've actually got in front of us.

SPEAKER_05 11:10

Yeah. I don't know. I actually think that you know, these mayors, they you know, they enable, they enable what we crave at the moment, I think, as a culture that of the cult of personality. And actually, when you look at the stable of professional politicians that come through the party ranks, actually, what we're lacking are leaders, personality, and actually platforms that enable characters to emerge, to to build a profile, and to enter stage left. Actually, I'm I'm quite interested in how politicians start to use the mayoral platforms. And we, you know, he's not the first. He who should not be named, you know, has preceded him already, and and others will follow. And actually, when you do look at the mayoral race, you do see in that you know it's a it's an entry route for non-party politicians to come and get a profile. So I mean I'm actually interested in the dynamics of how this plays out. Yeah, Jackie?

SPEAKER_03 12:01

Well, I I don't know what to say. I mean, at this point in the game, I start spluttering. I mean, Boris Johnson was actually a very good mayor of London. Sorry, contentious, but but well, because actually it didn't matter that he didn't follow the rules, he didn't read his briefing, it didn't none of it, or that he was late the whole time. None of that mattered because all he had to do was run around the world shouting London, London, London. And he could do that all right. And actually, I thought Andy Burnham was shaping up to be a really good mayor of Manchester, oh, the Greater Manchester, and I'm I'm just saddened that the mayoral model has been a bit diluted by all of this silly spat.

SPEAKER_10 12:33

And in our post-MIP episode, one of the things we talked about, Jackie, was that you know, our perennial frustration that UK ministers are too embarrassed to be seen at something like MIPIM, they don't want to be they don't like to engage too publicly with the sector where we seem to travel, but that actually Andy Burnham was there, a lot of other kind of mayors were there and really waving the flag for their regions and and and doing a really good job of it. So, you know, do you think looking at UK Reef, I think the local government attendance is really, really strong, all the combined authorities are present, there's some ministerial participation?

SPEAKER_06 13:03

As at, I mean, ask an official um as at kind of like six o'clock tonight, and whether or not that's the same tomorrow as well. Yeah, you've been there, Gap, haven't you? Yeah, where you've kind of like all of a sudden you've got none and then you've got three, and then you've got minus one, and you're like, oh, how do we get through this? So there's meant to be ministers here. Um uh, but but the mayors are en masse, and I think one of the things that I think is one of the best bits about UK Reef is that the mayors have adopted this wholesale and the civic leadership around the country. And for me, because a lot of the investment that needs to take place at a local level will largely be financed by domestic institutions rather than looking for ex-sovereign wealth fund to kind of come and invest. Actually, this is an amazing place to connect both the development community, the planning community, the investment community, and the civic leadership. And that's for me one of the most exciting bits about UK Reef. So forget what's happening in Westminster. As long as the mayors continue to show up, this will be a really effective place in which to do business and kind of get stuff done.

SPEAKER_10 14:05

And I know you wrote a paper on it recently, but do you think it's helping the understanding of place-based investment? Because that's we're so siloed in the industry, but this is a place where it's all about that.

SPEAKER_06 14:14

Yeah, I think this is where place-based investment actually comes to life. And actually, you've got a ton of officials that are here, and I think we should all write in letters to the editor if anyone complains about civil servants and senior officials from either from local authorities or from central government actually being here, because this is the place where actually stuff happens, and we have to give people an opportunity in which to be able to talk about the connections. I've been doing work with the place and actually having conversations with investors and being all in the room at the one time, and other places having a chat to officials. It all happens in one place, and it would be impossible to organise this. You'd spend six months trying to organise the number of meetings that you can get done in two days, which is always the value for money assessment that people need to be making about these events. I think it's wonderful.

SPEAKER_10 15:01

Paul, I just wanted to ask you with your kind of developer hat on. Has he got any other hat? He's got many, many hats, but we're going to give him the developer one for a moment. There is a tendency with this government to kind of say planning reform is done, tick, and now you know the industry should get on and build, and most of the industry is sitting there going, okay, nothing is viable. Like viability is still that real challenge. So, what are your kind of asks if if they're listening right now around that viability challenge?

SPEAKER_05 15:24

Oh, I mean, we come at this particularly as a small developer as well. So I think a lot of what is said and done at the moment is coming from that top level down. How do we facilitate thousands of homes? You know, so those conversations are happening, those partnerships are being created, and actually it's quite hard when you're right down where we are, right in those little places doing relatively small projects. There's still two or three hundred homes at a time, but it you know, when you engage with with you know with regions and central government, that that's not very interesting to them. And so, actually, for us, it's it's about trying to understand how do we engage with these programs that go beyond planning, and and so, and this goes to Gary's point as well, it's about spending quality time with people and building trust because so much it's there's so much up in the air, and there is so much change. You do want to look across the table and know that that other person is equally motivated to get things done. And I again I agree with you, Gary, the default mode is delivery. I think that is true for most people and most places, but actually, you do really need to see the whites of these people's eyes to really go and then spend all that time that is needed to facilitate that change. So it's about I think it's about yeah, understanding what's in it for the smaller guy and and and making and building those bonds, really. I think that's that's the main event for us.

SPEAKER_10 16:41

That reminds me something that Helen Godwin, who's the mayor of the West of England combined authority, said when we interviewed her, Jackie, that you know she's deliberately wearing very bright colours and kind of going and doing star jumps in front of you know the ministers and the officials in London, otherwise they forget that she and the region are kind of there, which you know, I think she was only half joking, but it it it is about you know being out of London and everyone having everyone here together and actually being able to talk in person does make a difference. And she'll be larging it up this week, won't she? I hope so, yeah. She's doing a great job. Is there anything else that you kind of think the sector could be doing to nudge that viability point or help the government understand it a bit better?

SPEAKER_03 17:12

Well, I I mean it's always been my complaint about civil servants in particular, they don't get out enough. So we can't really slag them off for coming to UK Reef and come and actually engaging in the sector. And I'm very pleased to see that there's more investors now to rocking up to this event. In terms of viabilities, I mean I I don't have the silver bullet, I don't know how we're going to get stuff going. I mean, it goes back to I think, you know, let's grow up, let's have stable government, let's start stimulating growth rather than having this weird preoccupation with this strange white hall bubble. I I it's really irritating me. I can't begin to tell you. And I and I'm not getting this out right there, it's filtering over. I normally quite like this sort of stuff, you know. So, you know, if it's getting to me, I can't think what it's doing to, you know, Mrs. Miggins from Doncaster, are you know, fair enough. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 17:57

Yeah, I think I think this it's interesting because you look at a lot of the comments that were made by aspiring councillors, that many of whom went on to win, probably surprised themselves in some of the cases. I think there's lots of evidence of that. It's it's really interesting when you hear that you know some of the narrative and some of the comments that are made actually about if only people wished harder for it, we would get more affordable housing and things like that. And I'm hoping there's gonna be lots of new counsellors here or paying attention and trying to listen, trying to understand a bit more. I mean, it's quite easy to campaign, it's quite hard to govern, right? So I'm I'm really hoping to engage with more of those sorts of people in this sort of setting. And I hope I hopefully they're asking honest questions and listen and willing to listen to the answers.

SPEAKER_03 18:40

Yeah, you're very wise, Mr. Clark.

SPEAKER_06 18:43

And I kind of taking that slightly further, I know Katrina uh often gets brownie points for advocacy for the planning community. I would have getting the brownie points for advocacy for kind of local officers across the country who've had to just put on all those local elections and then rock up and make sure that their new leaders or their proposition is credible or that it's it's kind of foolproof. And I mean that not as a comment on anyone that might be coming in, but rather whoever is coming in. Resilient is probably a better word than foolproof. The work that goes on to keep the show on the road and actually we have this wonderful ecosystem where we have a permanent civil service and also we have an officer class who are actually just kind of making sure that everything happens. They're to be commended for actually rocking up my thing that I think we'll start to see the implications of what's happened at a local level start to transpire in UK Reef 2027 because I imagine that there's going to be a few people wandering around a bit shell-shocked, like, what the bloody hell have we got here? Why, why am I here? What am I meant to be doing? And then want to put their own stamp on it. So I think this is almost like the tail end of where we were, and probably I mean, well, I suppose it's always bloody changing every year, isn't it? But but I imagine there's gonna be a more significant change come, uh, UK Reef 2027. Not to wish the next few days away, but I think there's a big it's gonna be a big change coming.

SPEAKER_10 20:02

Definitely. All right, I'm gonna look out. Have we got any uh brave souls want to ask a question? Otherwise, I will pick on people. Oh, we've got one at the back just now there, please.

SPEAKER_04 20:12

Hi there. I think when we were here 12 months ago, probably the big thing that everybody was talking about was the building safety regulator, uh unlocking gateway to approvals, etc. And I think in fairness to the current government, they acted on that. And you know, I think that we we can all recognise, those that are involved in it, that uh it's a lot better now. That is moving, and there been there has been some action on that. But I do think that was probably largely to do with a lot of noise around that particular issue at UK Reef last year. So, my question to the panel is if there was one single message to give to whoever the leader of the of the government is in the next few months, what would that be in terms of that one single message? If you could fix one thing, what would it be?

SPEAKER_10 20:54

That's a fantastic question. Can you just tell us your name?

SPEAKER_04 20:56

Neil Sams from 10G Consulting Limited.

SPEAKER_10 20:58

Brilliant, thank you. That's given a nanosecond for the panel to think about their answer. Go on, Gavin.

SPEAKER_06 21:02

This is such a woo-woo answer, so don't judge me. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say anything positive about the transformation in planning reform publicly recently, and we don't talk about stuff when it's actually going well. We are constantly talking about everything that goes badly. Everyone will kind of say the biggest criticism that you probably have got of that that one would have around the government and the prime minister is that the communication is not necessarily great. I think where stuff is actually changing and actually getting better, we have to actually be talking about it more kind of robustly. I know that's not as transformative, maybe as kind of like a major nudge to the planning system or kind of unlocking more investment from the Sterling 20. I just don't think things are going to get better if we all just keep on telling ourselves that everything's broken. So actually, wonderful to hear that some of these reforms which have been long standing and kind of seem really painful for a non Planner to kind of make happen that they're starting to bear fruit. Let's kind of celebrate that a bit more and try and work out other things that we can be doing, which is, I think, your question, but even just the positivity is really positive.

SPEAKER_10 22:10

And actually, linked to something that Jackie and I would say on almost every edition of the podcast, but you know, tell the bloody good news, have a narrative, but you know, share the good news is a thing. Paul?

SPEAKER_05 22:19

Oh, there needed more than nanosecond, and I needed more than that. No, uh, um, yeah, again, a bit, maybe a bit weird. I'm trying to be a bit more specific in the in the in the spirit of the Building Safety Act, but it it's very, very hard uh to be a bit more specific. I was listening to Radio and the New Economics Foundation. Hannah Pika was saying that you know, for the for the first time in a long time, what's economically right is also politically right at the moment. So the government has an opportunity just to be brave and break cracked eggs to make that omelet. I don't think anyone. I think you've got they've got a window of opportunity to show leadership and bravery.

SPEAKER_06 22:52

Do you think they've still got it though? Yeah, I don't think.

SPEAKER_05 22:55

No, no, no. Have they got the ability to do it?

SPEAKER_06 22:57

Is it I just think partly with all this psychodrama that we that Oh no, I agree with that.

SPEAKER_05 23:01

No, I agree with that. But yeah, so there's the yeah I was about to get on to check for going. Yeah, I was about to get to the point where you know what we really need is that that kind of that level of leadership and bravery and commitment to just get things done. Do yeah, are they set up to are they the right leadership to do that? Yeah, yeah. Have they currently got that that ability to be brave? No. So, in a sense, that's why it's a bit woo-woo because I'm asking for leadership and bravery when currently there is sort of none.

SPEAKER_10 23:24

The boys have got their heads in the clouds, Jackie. Bring us back to that.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

I quite I quite I quite like the woo-woo, um, and particularly Gavin's woo-woo bit about the fact we don't talk about the success enough.

SPEAKER_05 23:31

But uh, you know, a cocktail or woo-woo.

SPEAKER_03 23:34

Can I say, right, okay, you're gonna have this bonkers leadership uh campaign, and it's gonna go on now for weeks and weeks and weeks, and me and Mrs. Miggins from Doncaster are gonna be bored, witless by the whole thing. Get over yourselves, right? Let's get through that. And then let's just be honest, okay? You're gonna lose the next general election because of the show that we've had, or you possibly might, right? You've still got two years. Let's get on and do some stuff, right? I was greatly amused to see that is it was it Darren Jones uh announced that there was gonna be a delivery unit in every Whitehall department. I mean, give me a break. What is the Whitehall department supposed to be doing at the moment? Are they saying, well, they're like, we're not done, we're not a delivery department. You know, excuse me. I uh the only point, the only ever uh point of having a delivery unit is if you've got one in number 10 and it's going across Whitehall, right? So let's talk about delivery in every department, fashioning every single department, particularly MHCLG and DFT, uh, towards delivery and and coordinating.

SPEAKER_05 24:32

I knew you'd get more specific than I could. That's very good.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

Well, uh, you know, and a number 10 delivery unit, Christ knows that these things work. Why don't we look at things that work? You know, Darren Rodwell embarking, you know, I mean, you know, he he forged this incredible accord on council housing, he upped the game in barking. We've got 43% of the London housing, uh, social housing stock built in barking and and reduced the temporary accommodation numbers, yeah. And and did it all, and nobody's emulating the example or the exemplar that you said. I don't know why we're not just looking at stuff that works and replicating it. It's driving me nuts.

SPEAKER_06 25:03

I I also think that I I'm not sure that policy is the way out. No. Delivery is the way out, yeah. And I think this kind of fixation at a central government level that if we come up with another policy or another paper, or and I think I'm at risk of kind of repeating myself from when I was on, we need to take pride in delivery.

SPEAKER_03 25:22

Yeah, I think delivery is working. For another procedure or another commission, we've got a planning process which is which is entirely fit for purpose. Stop faffing about with it, get on and deliver.

SPEAKER_10 25:32

So I'm gonna pick on one of our other forms. Oh, there's some applause there that was uh generally coming through. So yes, it's good, it won't come through on the edit, but that was great. I'm noting it. Thank you. Mr. Bauer, I'm gonna ask you just to come on that delivery thing there on um John Bauer, who's one of our former Christmas special guests, on a small sites accelerator aggregator. I can never remember which it is at which any given moment, but it's just the idea of trying to take something that can work, has worked, but but scale it. How is that going?

SPEAKER_01 25:56

It's progressing. Um I mean, it to give it some context. I mean, the one of the points is this is something that started at a local level and has been long in the making, and then has slowly started to build up a momentum. So we've now got to the stage where it is nearly 12 months, I think, since government announced the launch, but there is a lot of action going on behind the scenes. I'm getting to grips with understanding the politics of all and how civil service are working and so on. But fundamentally, the pressure has come from the three host authorities, so um Sheffield, Lewisham, and Bristol, and they've been driving it forward with the support of uh the West of England Combined Authority, who are effectively the delivery partner. It has been action from the bottom up which has really made a difference. And having, you know, we talked about leadership earlier on, having that leadership within the local authority of being really keen to see delivery, and has meant that there's been a pooling of thinking, there's been a pooling of expertise, and now we need to get on with a pooling of delivery effectively. Those authorities have been leading sort of perhaps individually, and now the the aggregator is putting it all together to deliver small sites at scale and hopefully at pace.

SPEAKER_10 27:08

Great. Thank you for letting me put you on the spot, John. Brilliant, as always. We have planning royalty in the room, so I'm looking at Janice because I'm hoping that Janice Morfitt might give us a little comment or a question or a challenge on something if we could just get the microphone. Morpheot major and Morfitt minor. Well, I was just going to say Charlotte saying no, thank you. But Janice Morfitt, thank you so much for coming. Anything you'd like to chuck into the mix?

SPEAKER_02 27:28

I think what I would like to chuck in is, in the sense, how much, how little we know about what councils are actually doing and how little that is celebrated. So as Jackie knows of doing this research on how local authorities deliver, and we're just doing that again for the fifth time.

SPEAKER_10 27:43

With the housing forum. Thank you. Excellent.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Thank you. And really, I think there is a sort of lack of appreciation in the centre about how active councils are in terms of finding so many different ways to deliver housing. If a council's got a joint venture and they're putting land and money into that joint venture, unless the homes go into the housing revenue account, then all the completions are attributed either to the housing association or the developer. And all these JVs are very fluid, they can change in terms of market conditions. And in a way, it goes back to I think what you were saying about talking down what's going on and not really appreciating the huge scale of effort that everyone's really trying to put in. And that does need to be celebrated a lot more. I mean, there's a lot more that can be done. Don't you know, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's all perfect, but actually, so many different ways that councils are doing, we can learn from all those individual initiatives and examples. And I mean, hopefully our research contributes towards that, but I think we could all celebrate that a bit more. Here, here. Here, here.

SPEAKER_03 28:50

Thank you, Janice. Absolutely. Anyone want to comment on that? Well, I I mean, all I would say to you, Janice, is there any place, any single place that you know local authorities who wanted to get into this sort of work could learn how to do it? I mean, obviously, your research is a good first point.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

I mean, I think you've got to look at particular councils. So there are two kind of examples I might give. So you might look at councils, say, Oxford City and Cambridge City, who are just really pushing the boat out on doing all sorts of things. Um, they're not the only ones by any means. But the other approach, I think, is that in London, I know we can all you know kick London for not delivering enough, but at least they have five-year programmes of funding, guaranteed funding from the mayor.

SPEAKER_09 29:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

And therefore, they've been able to build up development expertise and teams. And again, you see a great variety of mechanisms being used in London. If you're outside London, you really don't have that, and so they're not able to build up their expertise in the same guaranteed way they're having to go to Homes of England on a scheme by scheme basis by and large.

SPEAKER_09 29:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

Not absolutely every council, but but almost all councils. So that's the same thing. So I we really want those five-year programmes so the expertise can be built up in these new unitary authorities as they're as they're set up, I think.

SPEAKER_10 30:07

Here, here. Thank you, Janice. We're gonna have to have you onto the pod so we can uh get the results of that research. That'd be great. But the gentleman in the violin orange shirt, Mr. Rickettes, thank you, Simon. It's beautiful, but it's right in my eye line. So you're gonna have to bring a question. Thank you.

SPEAKER_07 30:20

I knew I shouldn't have worn this. Oh, it's lovely. I I I just wonder whether well, first of all, I want to know, I suppose most immediately, whether I need to set the alarm clock early, because I was going to get up to see the keynote speech by our Minister, Matthew Pennicook. And I really hope, because MHTLG is a sort of oasis of good sense and actually delivering on manifesto promises, that whatever is happening way out but above my pay grade isn't affecting too much the work of MHTLG at the moment. But you know, you you're you're much closer to this than m that than me. What what do you think is actually happening there? And do I need to get up early? I d I don't know.

SPEAKER_10 31:05

Um I'm gonna look at Gavin, but the last that I heard is that he's definitely coming and is committed to doing it, and there's been an awful lot of uh, as I said, the procedures of running around when they do actually turn up. Everything, all the signs point to the thing that he he he is.

SPEAKER_06 31:18

I I'll I'll give you like it's not on till it's not on. Uh and uh and that which is I have no insight. I'm a reformed civil servant. Um, I so I'm not giving you a steer either way, but also uh I think partly they will rock up until they don't rock up, and then you someone will kind of do the sweeping up, and there'll be someone who's hugely credible and who probably uh knows lots about the subject who'll be subbed in right at the last minute. So I I reckon you should still get up, have a breakfast, get in nice and early, you'll be fine. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:47

Gavin Winbanks has been in therapy for five years now, um, and uh and he still bears the scars. I have to say to you, Simon, I wish Katrina was here to see that shirt. I really do. Um for what it's worth, my money's on Mr. Pennycook rocking up tomorrow.

SPEAKER_10 32:01

Yeah, I think so. He came last year, and actually that was very much last minute, Andreda kind of rushed in. I think he has seen the value and has really, you know, he is our longest-serving housing minister in I think 22 years, and has really lent into the detail on a number of different bits of legitimate, as you well know. So, you know, I I think he is somewhat a champion. The level of nail-biting anxiety I have of the idea that regardless of where things land, it's probably quite likely there's a reshuffle of some kind coming quite soon, and it it is unlikely, I I think, in my completely opinion, that he would stay. And I I have real concerns there because, again, it's this long-term expertise and governance. When we've all worked with housing ministers who you know don't know what a tenancy is or the difference between ten, you know, it's really quite amazing to have somebody in that role who at least does engage with the detail, but we shall see. Ladies at the back there, and then a gentleman here. Melanie Miller! There we go.

SPEAKER_11 32:56

Come on down, Marshall. Um it's Melanie Miller, I'm from Invest Hertfordshire. I just wanted to say we're on the bus for local government reform. We have 10 district authorities and a county council, everybody's on the bus. We've recently had uh local elections, everybody's on the bus. We are now looking at what's happening and hoping we're gonna have some announcements in terms of mayoral authorities because, as you've said, the money doesn't just come down unless you have that status, if you like. Hopefully, these issues that are happening at the moment at central government aren't gonna stop that. Have you any insights into your thoughts on whether things will be slowed down because of what's happening?

SPEAKER_10 33:48

All right, I'm gonna give the panel a little bit of thinking time and I'll ask you to pass the microphone to Emma Fletcher from Octopus Energy. What have you got for us?

SPEAKER_08 33:54

We are a data company that has disrupted the energy market, and I personally think some more data out there in the world would help people uh actually understand what's going on. So, number one, I'd like to see more data, I'd like to see the C's and the D's on the housing waiting list to actually talk about the real numbers of housing demand. And then also, I'd love to actually have some data on the value of building better homes. So, actually gather that data for the value of having solar panels or air source heat pumps. So, I'd like to know from the panel what data would you really like to see that would move the industry on?

SPEAKER_10 34:29

Lovely. Thank you. Right, so let's go to the first one. Melanie and Emma's questions.

SPEAKER_06 34:33

I'm gonna jump in on Melanie's. So we know, Melanie, what you're doing in Hertfordshire is really, really good stuff, and there's lots of really capable people who've been pro-growth for an extended period of time. And I don't want to steal any of Jackie's pitch as chair of the innovation corridor. I actually think, in some respects, with the uncertainty, with a government who will be keen to still get things going, even in the uncertainty, actually the places that are going to benefit are the most that have really credible propositions that can execute at scale really, really quickly. So, counterintuitively, my instinct is that a place like Hertfordshire and and the component parts of it will actually be stood in really good stead because you'll be able to get stuff done, and the government will be looking for wins and want to partner with people that are actually able to get stuff done. There's visible leadership, there's visible delivery, all of that will stand you in good stead. So I would I I think you can sleep well at night, but that's I might be.

SPEAKER_10 35:30

And Gavin, just gonna poke you. What does a credible proposition mean? Because we get asked that a lot by local authorities.

SPEAKER_06 35:35

Like, what do you want on a so I think an ability to not only kind of take a proposition and actually transact and actually then deliver a site, like the stuff that you see with um Stephen Edge Gateway, the progress that has been made since last year, it was in a prospectus, the it has moved on in a year. We know that it takes time for pro major projects to kind of move on, whether or not it's land assembly, whether or not it's financing, whatever it is, you have demonstrated, and you can slip me a tenor later on, Melanie, for this for this, uh for this picture. We didn't plan it in any way, shape, or form. But like it has moved on. And I think with projects that are five, ten, fifteen years, if you can't demonstrate that it stuff is happening, it's never going to happen. I it to my mind. So the fact that you're still doing it and you've got an ambitious agenda with all the civic and enabling work that will never be financed by the private sector, but is happening in order to make it a place in which the private sector will want to invest. That for me, if I was sat in my civil servant seat, I'd be saying, I want to go to places where I know I can pick a winner. It's terrible to be that kind of lazy, but in some respects, you want to know that you're going to back something that's actually going to deliver. So I think it'd sleep easy. I don't know if I've answered the specifics enough for you, Alex.

SPEAKER_10 36:49

You'll see if you get a tenor later off point. Paul, and the and the data question as well.

SPEAKER_05 36:52

Yeah, yeah, thanks, Emma. That's a classic. I mean, I happen to know Emma's a land economist uh by background, uh, so it's a real land economist question. Personally, I think I would look for would be more data around the social and economic value of development so that people are better equipped to understand the benefits of change because no one really likes change. But I think if people are better informed about the benefits that accrue from that, I think that would be really, really helpful. And I mean, I spent the last maybe nearly five years now working with a community in Froome in Somerset, and we're about to be able to my parents, yes. An amazing community of absolutely pro-development people, but development in the right way. And and actually a lot of the work we've been doing is looking at the social and economic benefits of this community-led development bid. And when people are actually, I really like that term on the bus, right? When it gets everyone gets on the bus, actually, development is positive. There's a lot in it for us in this community, it completely transforms the nature of the conversation you're having. So I think more data around the benefits of development, I think, would be great.

SPEAKER_10 37:51

I know we banned Abba, but I'm in danger of just launching into wheels on the bus because it's all my three-year-old sings at the moment. So that's what's going around my head.

SPEAKER_03 37:59

Jackie. Yeah, I really like on the bus, and I have to say, Melanie Miller. I mean, we watch her, don't we, Gabin? I mean, we watched her out at Expo Riel, she's doing a cracking job for Hertfordshire. And keeping the everybody on the bus right the way through all this different, all this change, Melanie. I mean, hats off to you, really. Just keep up the good work. My advice would be you know, like Iron Man, just keep putting one foot in front of the other, and you will find if you keep your eyes on the prize, then that then success will, you know, and the and the funding will follow. And just to say also, on the Emma Fletcher point, we love disruption, don't we? We love a bit of disruption, it's what we want, really. If you were to ask me one thing I'd like to see quantified, it would be the thing that Michael Keeveny talked about in one of our podcasts, which was about getting the temporary accommodation list down and about the potential knock-on uh social benefits of that and obviously the fiscal benefits of that. And I would widen that actually, I would widen that to uh, you know, a wholesale uptick in council housing and how much good that would do us as a country economically. And I don't just mean you know, in terms of the economy of building homes and acquiring land and all, I mean I mean how much you know you'd save on the on the health and social care budget down the line, and and how we should go back to the old Addison construct of the three pillars of so of social policy being health, education, and housing, and how much we've we've departed from that. So I'd like to see that quantified.

SPEAKER_10 39:16

I mean that links exactly to what Janice was talking about, those longer time frames at local level, but also what we said in the Radics Big Ten Housing Commission in that report about having that ecosystem approach and getting the Treasury to think past a one and a three-year time frame and actually be able to have the data, Emma, to evidence the value. I think that would be and it is there, it must be there, but you know, no central government body delivery unit of any department is collecting it. So, you know, that's why we keep arguing for a number 10 one to centralise it. So thank you. Great questions, all lots of love in for the bar later. This is gonna be great. We're gonna have one more question and then we're just gonna have a quick roundup.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

Um so thank you very much. My name is Jacob Bowling, I'm a planning director at TetraTech. A few questions I've touched on about delivery. So, my question for the panel is what's the one thing you use to increase delivery? It's great getting planning permissions. I personally say planning reforms have been pretty positive so far. You know, we've definitely seen an uptick in consents, but we're not homes. People don't live in planning permissions. So, what would the panel do if they could do one thing to increase delivery? Because that for me is being like the biggest challenge right now on the ground.

SPEAKER_06 40:15

All right, one thing to increase delivery training like training on economic development and um uh visible senior leadership, but I at a local level. An event like UK Reef is not just an event, it's the pillar of your economic development strategy, and you have to have people that are equipped to actually kind of talk to developers, talk to investors, talk to um central government departments. So for me, training, I know that Katrina has been an advocate for I feel like I'm a representative on earth today. Um, uh, that it's kind of like for planning. Um, is like planning training is really important. And my thing that needs to follow shortly thereafter is training for people in economic development. Um, is absolutely critical. So that once you've actually kind of got the planning approvals placed, how does it actually take place? And where do you get the money from and who are you going to partner with to do it?

SPEAKER_09 41:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 41:10

For me, I think delivery is won and lost in the land transactions. And I've written before and we've spoken before, I think, about the need for modern partnerships that are fit for the purpose moving forward and not the partnerships that we were using five, ten years ago. So we've with Aviva, we've pioneered what we think is the first relational development agreement, and we're going to be pushing that a bit this week, you know, trying to spread the word that there are there are ways and means of creating the basis for effective partnerships moving forward. So that's where I would I would really bang the drum about better partnerships.

SPEAKER_03 41:44

Okay, agree. Jackie? Devolution. Have the courage of your convictions, guys. You know, it's been proved all around the world. Devolve as much power as you possibly can. Power, planning powers, fiscal responsibility, uh, fundraising powers, devolve them out to the mayors of the combined authorities. Go faster and harder on all of this, take a risk. Some of these mayors aren't so clever, some of them are absolutely brilliant. I mean, if half of it works, you know, at least we've got half of the country working. And, you know, I mean, look at Helen Godwin, look what she can do just with convening power. You know, let's get more powers, more fiscal powers, more everything out to the lowest possible place. The lowest what's it called? Low subsidiarity. Subsidiarity. I have to look at Morphids to get into the world.

SPEAKER_05 42:30

I have to get proper planning. You're being marked. Did you know that?

SPEAKER_10 42:35

You're being and I think it kind of relates to, for me, it's that optimism thing. Tell the good news. So I've been slightly traumatizing myself listening to the rest is history, the 1970s um series that they've just done, and the parallels are really, really frightening for someone who's born just after, and thinking how, but a lot of that was that maelstrom of negativity and the downward spiral that people didn't believe the country could get out of. And I think that with all the challenges that are there, there are lots of amazingly talented people. Everyone in this room, there's the 20,000 people here, you know, this this week, which is, you know, for an event that didn't exist six years ago, is frankly incredible. All still trying to make stuff happen. So I think maintaining that positive frame of mind is something we really do need to do. And it sounds trite, and you know, maybe the wee we're all gonna have to have cocktails now. But um the rui thing is that actually there is, you know, my my biggest thing when I got into real estate and the development side is absolutely, and Paul forgive me for taking your profession into um this repeat, but is fake it till you make it. Nobody sane would try and do development, actually, if you if you really had to have everything stacked up and working perfectly before you started. You have to have a bit of hope and faith that you can just make it can make it happen. The magic has to come from the people, from the relationships, from the from the plans and the the beautiful design and all the things you can put into it. And so actually, if you haven't got that positivity, nothing's gonna happen. That would be my takeaway. I haven't had to ask anyone to be quiet once, which is very unusual. Normally I'm shishing katrina at. Because she's not here.

SPEAKER_09 44:02

The rebel razz.

SPEAKER_10 44:02

The rebel razzic. So please join me in thanking our wonderful expert, wonderful Jackie, Paul. And for our listeners at home, can we go over the 5,000 mark now, I think? So which is really exciting. But thank you all for listening in. We have more guests to go go. We are hunting down all of our female mayors that we've got coming through, but we've also got we're we, as these gents know, we do like men occasionally to come along as well, so we're even out. But we've got some great guests, all sorts of interesting topics coming up. If there's things you'd like us to talk about, please let us know. But I think we're going to turn the mics off and say thank you so much, wonderful live audience, for being here and starting your UK Reef 2026 with us. Um we look forward to having a bit more of a chat, and the bar is open. Thank you so much.