Deeper Roots Podcast
We explore what it means to live a life rooted in Christ—beyond Sunday sermons.
Whether you’re planted in the church or still searching for your soil, Deeper Roots is your weekly reminder to stay grounded, ask better questions, and grow in the direction God is calling you.
Deeper Roots Podcast
Church Hurt, God's Ninja Warrior and Church Pet Peeves
"God didn't do it." Answering a listener's question about supporting someone who has been deeply traumatized by church leadership.
• Separating the individual hurt from the church as an institution
• Supporting someone with church hurt
• Church leaders face unique challenges and burdens often unseen by most
• Finding identity in Christ rather than ministry roles or recognition
• Serving without seeking acknowledgment in a social media-driven world
• Waiting for God's timing instead of forcing open doors
Text the pod with your questions or comments - we want to hear from you and start these conversations!
This is the Deeper Roots Podcast. We are four hosts with a whole lot of topics talking about life and godliness. I got RJ, I got Chris, I got Pastor Jason and myself Zayn. We're going to dive in it today.
Speaker 2:What up?
Speaker 1:What's happening?
Speaker 2:That was great, by the way.
Speaker 1:What the opening? The opener.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 1:It's like the first time in like three episodes that I've actually nailed it one time.
Speaker 3:Grace and peace. Greetings everybody.
Speaker 1:Why he?
Speaker 4:sound like Paul if he was about to write to the Church of Ephesus.
Speaker 3:I was trying to contradict the what up thing.
Speaker 1:You wanted to go spiritual on us.
Speaker 3:Great day. Great day.
Speaker 1:Everybody, you guys can text the pod and we actually got a pod text today. I think it's really interesting to go in. But, for everybody listening, if you ever have an issue with what I said about the basketball in a couple episodes and you want to argue about Justin Bieber him being the greatest male singer of all time, you can text the pod right underneath your play button that says text the pod. Let us know what you're going through. If you have any questions or concerns about anything I said, or just laughing with RJ or Pastor Jason or Chris, just let us know. We want to hear from you and start these conversations and actually one of the text messages that came through kind of informed the topic of today's conversation. So we got a text message from Maryland and it's a big question I think that we can tackle. I'm really excited to get into it. So hit that like share and subscribe button.
Speaker 1:But text message from Maryland says my girlfriend and I have been dating for three years. Unfortunately, she's experienced some church hurt where her family was getting taken advantage of by the pastor of the church and there was some molestation happening in the church as well. For that reason she's been closed off about church and reconnecting with God, but she's open to it. How do I best support her in getting reconnected with God and the church? Now I'm going to be honest with you. As soon as I read that text, I said give Pastor Jason the strength and anointing to answer this question.
Speaker 2:I also prayed.
Speaker 3:I'm excited to hear what you guys have to say.
Speaker 1:All right, ball's in your court, chris Elder, what?
Speaker 4:Elder. Oh man, what a question, what a statement. So, okay, it may be good that I speak before Pastor Jason, because he'll probably have to do some cleaning up and some apologizing for my thoughts, because I was thinking about that. First of all, whoever this is, definitely apologize for what you went through. Not taking this lightly. That is a huge thing and I hope that through time you find someone and God opens a door that you can actually be healed from that moment and that you're not stagnant in a moment in time that's already passed but you can move forward, and that he'll bring people into your life that actually reflects who he truly is Now.
Speaker 4:With that being said, this is where I might get a little controversial. For example, I was thinking about this and really trying to meditate on it and think it through, and something Pastor Jason said here recently in past Sunday service make sure I say it right ecclesia, meaning that it's not the building, that's the church, but it's the called out ones. Right, and so, if the building isn't the church, because buildings don't have feelings, buildings don't have actions but yet it seems that we take something a person does and we transform it into the entity of church and not the individual. And it made me think about that because I know plenty of people that have gone to doctors and went to the hospital for sickness and even though they didn't agree with the doctor or it was a mistreatment, they would still go back to that doctor and be like you know what Something's not right, like I know you studied, I know you put all this time in, I know you have experience, but there's something in my body telling me what you're diagnosing me with or not diagnosing me with is not correct. So either we're going to get this correct or I'm going to go to another doctor for another opinion, which is a lot of times what they do. They go to doctor, doctor to get an opinion.
Speaker 4:Now, how does that relate to the church? It's interesting that when it comes to the church, nobody really pushes back at that point. Instead of them saying I don't agree with what the pastor said or what that church did, it now becomes the whole entity worldwide. Every single church is the same as that pastor and they represent that same pastor's belief and they're all corrupt and they're all these things. Instead of saying no as the body, as the church individually, there's something you're doing that's not helping me in my ailment or in my time, and so I don't agree with you. I'm going to go get another opinion from somewhere else. I'm going to go seek the Lord somewhere else.
Speaker 4:And because of representation, I think it goes back to a lot of what we talked about last week when we were talking about how we look for our theology and our principles and things coming from a person and they're the standard, versus God being the plumb line and God being the standard and the requirement. So therefore, when that person messes up now all of a sudden, because we've idolized that person and we've cherished and put them on a higher pedestal than the one who actually gave them the message, then now we have created a rift between us and how we really get saved and we deem it church hurt when it's really not church hurt. The pastor hurt you, those people in that community hurt you. It's also funny how people have a relationship and a man or woman will hurt them in that relationship, but they don't give up on men and women as a whole. They still have other relationships, they still date, they still move forward, and so that was kind of where I went with it and it's not again, because there's plenty of misrepresentation. There's plenty of.
Speaker 4:I'll say this and then I'm going to pass it off because I've not been talking for a minute. But I seen a clip that I actually was thinking about sending to the group, where it was a pastor and he had all these people behind him in the pulpit and I guess it was his honorary service when they were honoring him and he had made mention. You know, I bought six to seven cars for this congregation. I bought what was that? A stock truck or whatever you call it, a box truck with a lift and all that.
Speaker 4:So when it comes to my day, oh, y'all going to honor me, y'all going to honor me, y'all going to honor me. And if you weren't here, then I expect to see a healthy check when I see you. But if you ain't here, you can't give me that. Then I'm not going to put in more for you than you willing to put in for me. I'm not going to sit here and talk to you, I ain't going to answer your calls.
Speaker 4:Ain't that right? Amen, and they're amen in this and they're oh, yeah, that's my bishop. He even said, you know, he even cursed from the pulpit in that moment and I'm like that's a prime example right there of if you can't separate the man from God and that one situation, then that will be enough for me. Like I'm never going to church again. They're all crooks, like it's all about them. That's not what God represents. When you read scripture and you understand the text, that's nothing about God in that situation and scenario. But I'm going to stop right now because I know I done ate up a lot of time and get your fellas' opinion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would just say God didn't do it. Again, I hate that that happened at a church. I hate that a church community could, could hurt somebody with, especially with you know, getting taken advantage of molestation and that type of thing. You know, I can't imagine. You know, without mentioning obviously any names I know of, I know of a. You know that things like that have happened fairly local to me. I've heard a lot of stories, a lot of people that got hurt and fortunately a lot of those people have now found.
Speaker 2:I mean, there was a time period where there was a lot of things going on, a lot of things being confronted, but I'd say, like the one part is, only God can heal that. And I would say support her, pray with her. You know you don't have to wash over it or act like it didn't happen. You know you don't have to wash over it or act like it didn't happen, um, but I would say, just encourage and lead, lead and finding finding a good new church. There are a lot of good churches, there are a lot of good bodies that you know. Use your discernment, um, feel free to, to go and and you know, uh, try, try different places out. You know, talk to people in the congregation.
Speaker 2:You know, feel free to be a little, you know you know, you don't have to go to the first place and immediately plug in and go over to people's house for small group. You don't have to immediately do that, you know. But I would say, pray, ask God to send you somewhere and when you believe the, the Holy spirit's confirmed that you're where you're supposed to be. You know, I'd pray that you jump in and, uh, I'd pray that that those, um, those feelings of hurt would be lifted from you and I pray that you would, uh, you would be able to serve and connect with people like you've never been hurt before.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's really good wisdom y'all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there are so many different shades of church hurt Like it's hard to like speak to one. But to answer you know this person's question here how do you best support somebody who has experienced a lot of hurt? I think for me, first thing that comes to mind was Jesus never said come to my church. He said, come to me all who are heavy laden and I will give you rest. I think when I think of people in the Bible who have experienced church hurt, you don't think Paul was hurt by a lot of different people. David was hurt by people who were supposed to have God's anointing. Jesus had 12 close people and one of them sought to kill him. Like you could just see so many examples of people who were supposed to have God in their life were supposed to be Jesus followers that hurt other people and in every situation where that hurt occurred that person that was hurt had to go right back to God and find their restoration and find their healing and find their rest there.
Speaker 1:I think with the situation of the type of hurt that this person is talking about, it's very hard to be the sole supporter of that one person that has something that heavy, you know, and I think it's even in my own life where people who have had this specific type of hurt before I've tried to be their one safety net and their one, like you, can lean on me and that's just too much for me to handle because I'm not God and God still has. They say there's safety. There is safety in a multitude of counsel. You cannot be the only one that's supporting your girlfriend. I also think, too, the fact that you even said like she's open, there is a certain world of healing that has happened. It might take a little while to get out that shell, but connecting in community, I think, really helps in this situation, because you are not enough for your relationship.
Speaker 3:I can do nothing but echo what you guys have said. I think instances like this teach us what we already know is that humanity, even in our best efforts, we make a flop out of a lot of stuff, and so I think, of all the things that God has ordained and instituted and established, how sometimes those are the places that fill us with hurt the most, I think of family. It is the first thing that God instituted and established was family, and how much of our to use you know language our trauma or triggers come from something that God established with the family, then with the church. The same way, god established and said that he would build the church, and a lot of difficulty and struggle and issues come from dealings in church. And I think your brothers have spoken to this really well that just because there were rotten apples and there will be rotten apples and there are rotten apples, does not mean that the institution is not God-ordained and it does not mean that there's not value in the institution. In fact, I would submit the reason the enemy fights it so much is because of the benefit of it, and so I would speak specifically to this situation. I think because of the attack or the wall that is. I mean, obviously it's easy to understand why that wall would be built up toward church and to that community.
Speaker 3:But Jesus told Peter. He said the enemy has tried to sift you. He said, but I pray for you that your faith wouldn't fail. And I think about the stuff that we go through with family, the stuff that we go through with church. I think it's all an attack of the enemy to try to rob us of our faith, our trust in God. We don't trust in church, we don't trust in the people in our church. The Bible says no man after the flesh. We don't put trust in the people that surround us. We trust God. And that's different.
Speaker 3:And a lot of these situations, what they do, is harmful and as hurtful as they are, never diminishing that. And I'm not saying God causes them, but God uses them to show us how different he is than any other human. And I think that's the tendency sometimes to make become codependent with other people, even codependent with the church, rather than being dependent upon God. And instances like this should teach us very strongly that God is our only strength, god is our only help, he's the only one that we can lean to and that's the way he uses situations like that for our good. So, rj, when you were talking about this as your prayer for them, that they would, when they found a healthy church now, can you imagine how confident they walk into it, knowing that there isn't someone or something that is able to take their eyes off of God anymore.
Speaker 3:So what people bring good and bad, it doesn't affect their identity, it doesn't affect who they are. It doesn't add or take anything away. Those are supplemental things, things that can be extemporaneous things, but their soul identity is built in Jesus Christ, who they are, in Christ, and then from that you can serve a community well and actually be served by a community well. I think that's why in marriage, when Jesus teaches two shall become one, the math doesn't seem to work well, but it's two whole people. When they marry, they can actually love each other well and they can receive love well.
Speaker 3:And I think churches nothing gets us in trouble in church anymore is when we want something from the church that God was supposed to provide for us, and moments like this, when we are made whole and we are healed, it actually makes us and creates a better representation for our future. Again, god did not cause it. It was not him, it did not represent him, but he uses all of these instances and works them together for our good. And then, secondly, I'll end with this this should be every time we hear these stories. As the church, like we should feel the weight of how our actions affect other people and the decisions that we make. And I'm not telling that we should be, you know that the idea of perfection is, you know, should paralyze us. We shouldn't serve because we're going to not do things well, serve because we're going to not do things well, but to do things sincerely and to do things with a genuine heart. I think these instances like this should cause us, as a church, to purify our motives, to purify our actions, to be careful about the things that we say, to be watchful and vigilant about how we treat people.
Speaker 3:And I look back almost 20 years in ministry, 40 some years in church, like I know, I don't have a reason to be a victim today, because I know I've been a part of negligence or not being able to be what somebody else needed, or even in my own immaturity, what somebody else needed, or even in my own immaturity, my own noviceness, not handling a situation well or right and I should have handled it a lot different. And those moments they sometimes they're like man I don't feel like I can do this well or do this right. And in my weak moments that's my response. I don't think I need to be in ministry, but in my strong moments they are okay. I learned through this and now I know how to handle this situation better.
Speaker 3:I know how to go back and say I messed up in that, I was short-tempered there, I let something bother me, that it shouldn't bother me. I handled that situation in a very immature way and so, just as a church, our maturity and as leaders within a church, the way we live above reproach, the way we handle and love on the people that God has placed in our life and placed in our heart to our community, to steward like those are huge responsibilities. I think that's why James says don't desire something if God hasn't called you to something, because it's a lot of people, a lot of things are at stake when you make decisions, and so I think that should be a refining, purifying for us all.
Speaker 4:I was thinking, as all y'all were talking and were talking about prayer, and I was just thinking that, you know, a reality of life is you can't change nobody. You can only change yourself. And I reread the question and the statement at the end of how can I, if she's closed off the church and God like, but you're still there and just call them a spade, a spade? In all honesty, right now you probably are that representation and that seed that God is using in her life to understand him and to correct all the faults of the pastors and all that.
Speaker 4:Now, sometimes we'd rather put it on leadership and we'd rather put it on other people. But right now you are that light that can shine in the darkness and you have the opportunity. And I'm not saying you have to be perfect, but you depend on God and let him deal with you and your walk and, naturally, with her being attached to you. Nothing can withstand in that moment, in that presence. The more pure you become, the more consistent you become, the more you depend on God and make it known that you depend on God. If you mess up, it's OK, apologize.
Speaker 4:You be that forgiveness, you be that wisdom, you be that connection, you be that love and let her see that and it'll open up a lot more opportunities, because one she'll probably get, it'll give you a foothold to speak about God in her life and also whatever or whoever you're connected to in a community you have.
Speaker 4:I'm sure at some point she will be open to going and experiencing that community with you, as she continues to watch you. And I'm not going to say it's going to be easy, but you stay in your word and you keep going to God, and I know. A lot of times, as a married man, I often hear most people give this advice to the wives oh, just go in your prayer closet and tackle this situation. But as men, I think we should be in there more than the women, to be honest, as the voice, as we say that we're leading so even in this moment. It even gives you practice for the future, but you get in your prayer closet and you stay before God on your behalf and hers, and that's just something you're going to have to bear and it's good practice for later in life.
Speaker 1:Amen, that's a great point. If I am a supporter of somebody, I better make sure I'm being supported by God. Yeah, because I can make the situation so much more worse. So much more worse. Is that a sentence?
Speaker 4:Just take the word, we're going with it.
Speaker 1:I can make that situation a lot worse than it is. If I'm not attached to the vine, I can't give you the fruit that you need if I'm not attached to the vine that's supposed to give me that fruit. I think that's a really powerful point you said. And another thing too, I think, in Matthew 16, 33,. Jesus is about to be betrayed. He's about to go through a whole lot of hurt, and this scripture has been in my spirit.
Speaker 1:Above reproach scripture has been in my spirit a lot lately. I think God personally is calling me to make sure I'm above reproach so that the foundations of my marriage stay strong. So that's been a really big conviction point for me. But right before he's about to be betrayed by the closest people around him, jesus says this to his disciples indeed, the hour is coming yes has now come that you will be scattered, each to his own and will leave me alone. He's letting them know you're going to leave me and I'm going to be all by myself. The next sentence he says and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
Speaker 3:Yes, sir.
Speaker 1:Even though he was alone by the people around him and ostracized and hurt by people around him. Jesus even recognized that I still have a connection to the Father. Okay, but what about us, jesus? In the next verse he says these things I have spoken to you that in me you have your peace Because I'm getting my connection from the Father and you're connected to me. You can have that peace when you are alone. That doesn't stop there. Then he keeps going to me. You can have that peace when you are alone. That doesn't stop there. Then he keeps going. He says in this world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer because I've overcome the world. That lets me know any loneliness, depression, ostracized, church hurt, whatever I got to do, what Jesus had to do when he was hurt and he was ostracized and he was backstabbed and the people were coming after him in his life, he connected himself to the Father and because Jesus did that on earth, I can connect myself to Jesus and find peace because he overcame whatever tribulation I'm going through.
Speaker 3:Amen, amen. I think all of us sitting at this table may be as extreme some of us may be as extreme as this text message have experienced church hurt very similar to this, and I say that to say there are, whether it's this extreme or not, everyone has justifications and reasons for running from God and running from the church. And again, that's the enemy's attack. That's what he does, and you said that so well. The faith that God has given us it leans into because we know that it's good for us. We lean into it because we know that's what God has called us to. So, as much as we are spending time understanding the experience as best we can, I also want to speak faith to you as well, and just speak faith to your girlfriend. She's going to make it through.
Speaker 3:There's enough grace to cover this, there's enough grace to move forward and she will come out stronger. On the other end, and although you may have a reason and a justification, don't let it be an excuse for not moving forward. Don't let them have that much control over your life where you walk outside of your identity, walk outside of your calling because of what somebody else did. It was a moment, it was a, it was an instance, it was an experience, but it does not have that much control over your life where it's able to limit and paralyze you from moving forward. So there's grace for this. The holy spirit empowers you to move through this and pass this and we're looking forward to to the beauty on the other side.
Speaker 4:So just thinking about that, because a lot of times people think the pastor's, above all the things that the congregation goes through when it comes to church hurt. That's typically a member talking about the pastor hurting them. But let's talk about and I'm going to ask you, you really want to talk about it? Yeah, let's talk about and I'm going to ask you you don't really want to talk about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, let's talk about it.
Speaker 4:Let's go there, boys, because this is a prime example of being able to deal with it and keep moving on. Because as a leadership, you have a lot more opportunity where the arrows come at you and you can be hurt by the member. But you don't hear many pastors calling it church hurt when their members leave them that they thought was going to be by their side, or they're slandering their name in the street but they sitting in their face like they're their best friend. So, from that standpoint, when they are attacking you, how do you, pastor, jason? Um, how do you handle that?
Speaker 4:hey, pastor jason over here sweating boy, I can't tell if he hyped up to have this conversation.
Speaker 1:Get it off your chest.
Speaker 3:I'm not hyped up man. The reason I got nervous is because I don't know how much I can share and how much I can't share. I agree with you and again, I'm in no way want to play a victim, but if it is and I'll just speak culturally, I'll try to speak in generalities it has become acceptable and almost encouraged to hurt people in leadership. Right now it is just a common thing of and am I glad that God is purifying his church, I'm so thankful. But it is almost acceptable and encouraged to tear down people in leadership. That's a pretty common thing, but to the same encouragement that we gave to this couple. It's the same thing that we receive.
Speaker 3:It doesn't have to be perfect. God chose us, god calls us, god put us in this position and that's a part of the cross of bearing. It is to being able to deal with criticism, hear criticism, know when to talk and when not to talk, how not to take things personal. But I mean, I've failed at it a million times and probably will continue. But it's a real thing and I think if you have I'm not talking about me but if you're listening and you have a good pastor, encourage them and honor them and tell them that you're praying for them, you're lifting them up Not to be yes, men, not to just go along with everything that they say. That's not the heart at all, but a heart of honor for that position. I think Scripture teaches us that, because there's enough attacks from demonic places and wolves in sheep's clothing that they could probably use some of that encouragement. So I hope that's a general enough statement.
Speaker 1:No, it's good. What a humble answer. That was great.
Speaker 2:You threw the rod out there. You didn't bite at all.
Speaker 1:Nah, I'm a bite.
Speaker 1:So, my parents are pastors and the way that my parents' church was set up was that both my father and my mother taught from the pulpit at the same time. So my dad was still lead senior pastor, like he was still the one you know, ordained by god, driving the ship there, but my mom was also beside him teaching. So you got like a father, mother, parental man, woman perspective, while coming at once. Church people are also fallen people and I cannot tell you the countless times I have seen deacons, ministers and elders from the pulpit and then in the pastor's office two completely different people. And one thing that my parents did that taught me was how to walk straight with arrows in your back. Wow, and that is a tough yes, sir, when you are bleeding and you still got to patch somebody else's wound and the person you're patching was the person that cut you in the first place and then have to see them come off and to my own fault, because I'm a fallen individual too Watch the hurt that they're going through. Come home to me hurting my parents and what I'm doing, and they still have to walk straight with arrows in their back. Like the level of resilience and the level of patience and loving, kindness and grace that you have to walk through in that position as a leadership.
Speaker 1:Now that I'm an adult and I look back in those moments and be like actually that wasn't a normal conversation, it happened too much to them, but that was not normal for somebody to have to hold and have to carry with. You know, we had a small church of maybe less than 100 families but man, in the most encouraging moments where I did see my parents get emotional or as pastors and the ways that it affected their marriage or affected their friendships, that's a whole other conversation about. Pastors sometimes do not have a community of their own because they are the leaders of community and that's a whole different conversation. But the moments where I seen the joy of the Lord being their strength is when the saints around them randomly just said I'm thinking about you and I'm praying for you. I appreciate what you're doing.
Speaker 1:I saw that interaction at the back of the church by the trash cans and by the water cooler and I know it's a lot. I don't even know all the details, but can I cook for you this week? Hey, you want to just go out and have fun? You want to just go play some mini golf or something like that. It was such an encouragement. I think that's why the Bible encouraged us to encourage each other in the faith, especially these leaders. Now, looking back to this day, I have so much respect for my parents in having gone through that because I couldn't be one of the 12 disciples. Jesus wouldn't have allowed me to, because I'm going to cut you because how dare you come into my place?
Speaker 1:You feel me.
Speaker 3:I still need some sanctification.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean this is a heavy conversation, you know, like pretty much everybody we're talking about here, I've made a lot of mistakes, both as a follower and a leader, and I don't say like God put us in community to help each other, to encourage each other, and that's why, you know, I used to think at one point I was thinking, you know, maybe this, maybe the small church home movement, is the way to go. You know, you got less people, less stuff to deal with, no politics, that type of thing, and then that's not it either. God put things in in order for a reason. And we're here.
Speaker 2:I was thinking when I was thinking about, like somebody that's out of church going back into church, and I thought of a quote that I heard of years ago from Charles Spurgeon. He said if I had never joined a church until I found one that was perfect, I should never have joined one at all. And the moment I did join it, if I had found one, I should have spoiled it, for it would not have been a perfect church after I became a member of it. Still imperfect as it is, it is the dearest place on earth to us and I think, like I mean, for me. There's been nothing, outside of God himself, that has been more special to me than the group of believers that we are connected to. So I would just encourage anybody who does not have a church, who does not have a home, even these people that are talking now please like, find community, find body, god put this as the bride of Christ.
Speaker 2:It's a dear community. It's built specifically to hold each other up and to serve the Lord together. And, yeah, that's my encouragement, amen.
Speaker 3:I'll speak to pastors. The reason, isaiah, what you just shared is the reason that at 16 years old I knew the Lord had called me into ministry. I knew it Sunday evening service. I felt it in my spirit. But it was in that service. I knew the Lord had called me into ministry and at 16, I told I remember telling my parents at a Bojangles after Sunday evening service I won't do it, I refuse to do it. I know what the Lord is saying and I refuse to do it. And my dad asked me. He said why are you so aggressive against it? And I said because I've seen what you've been through. I've seen what you faced. I've seen the conversations that nobody else sees. Sunday mornings you get text messages and calls and things that he experienced and went through. My mom experienced and went through. And I looked him square in the eye. I said Dad, I love you. I said I will serve what God is doing in your life. For the rest of my life I'll give everything that I have to holding your arms up, but I will not be a minister. I don't want to do it and I saw the behind the scenes part of it and I say that to say like for pastors and leaders, and it happened.
Speaker 3:Many of you know my story that, at 21 years old, god and my, my foolish statement was God was going to have to write it on the wall. And then, at 21 years old, he shut down my whole life, um, and a lot of different ways physically, emotionally, career, everything, uh. And he had to write it on the wall the direction that he wanted me to go, and that that moment was was finally my surrender. It was my Haneini moment of like. Okay, this is my yes, I don't want to do this. This is not because I'm begging to do this, but I feel so strongly because I love the Lord. I'm thankful that God gave me a heart to love the Lord. I love Him, but I did not want the pressure and the responsibility of being in the place where I presently am. So, just as an encouragement to pastors, it's a part of the weight that you carry, it's part of what God has called you to, and he has never called us to anything that he will not give us grace to do, and so if he's called you to it, he'll supply everything that you need for the moment. And, isaiah, you made a statement and I read this. I heard this quote a few months ago and it's been ringing in my head since then.
Speaker 3:The average person loses about five to seven close people in their life. In their lifetime they lose about five to seven, whether it be through death or a close friend moving away In a lifetime, you lose about five to seven. Whether it be through death or a close friend moving away In a lifetime, you lose about five to seven close people to you. A pastor loses about five to seven close people to them every year. Every year, someone that they consider a brother, a sister, a mom, a dad. They move, they you know there's, you know reason, all those things they die, they pass away and they get close to someone that five to seven times a year they have to grieve in some type of way. And I say that that is that's the.
Speaker 3:The probably the most challenging part of pastoring is to become protective but not guarded, to become bold but not unkind. And I think that's the balance that I haven't always done well with, because sometimes I've been overguarded, I've been overprotected and I didn't let people in because I knew at some point I was going to have to grieve them, I was going to lose them at some point. And so I kept people out. I kept people at arm's distance, at arm's length, and then sometimes I've been completely too open, where Paul says, don't lay hands on any man suddenly, and I've allowed people in to emotional parts that I knew better than to allow them in that quickly. And so I've lost and struggled with that on both ends. But I would encourage pastors and leaders. It is a part of the call.
Speaker 3:Maturity is so necessary and that's why pastoring is more than a gift. It has to be about character, it has to be about fruit, because your gift to preach or gift to prophesy, or gift to give a word of knowledge or a word of wisdom, it will not hold you in these seasons, your ability to teach will not sustain you in those seasons of the grieving process. And then the healing and the wholeness process. Because we need as a body, we need whole leaders. We need healed whole leaders, not standoffish, unapproachable, not so wishy-washy that you just allow anything and everything in. But there's a wholeness in being strong and also being kind. And the body needs strong, whole leaders. And it doesn't mean that we won't go through things, but get healed, get around community, find people that speak life into you. Spend time in the presence of the Lord. Find people that speak life into you. Spend time in the presence of the Lord, not just performing with your gift and your personal, your private life is the anchor.
Speaker 3:If the pressure from the outside becomes more than the pressure from the inside, you are going to collapse. So if you're carrying this weight and it all is about your gift or it's all is about the performance, it's all about impressing people the pressure from the outside will be too much, unless he is the one that sustains you in the private place, where he is actually the one who you're satisfied with, not the way he uses you. You actually find your contentment in him, not just in the way that people treat you or the way they look to you. And so for your own health pastors, for your own health ministers, that maturity and growth hear my heart this is coming from someone who's failed at it a million times but the pressure from the inside, your love for the Lord, your personal identity of who you are in Christ that is the part that pushes the pressure from the outside. Although it's there, it does not define you and you will not collapse because there's greater in you than that which is outside of you.
Speaker 3:Amen.
Speaker 2:Man there's some nuggets in this episode, man this is the episode y'all need to share.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just building on that was really good, just building on top of that. Those who feel the call but aren't actively in the role. This is why you should be patient and let the Lord do what he is doing in your life. Why you're not in the role that maybe you think you should or maybe that you feel like God's leading you. I think the Lord is perfecting you. He's working on you. There are some things in ministry that could kill you.
Speaker 2:It could kill you if you get in it too early. It could kill you if you try to step in.
Speaker 3:Not just spiritually kill you physically. Kill you Physically.
Speaker 2:Kill you physically physically kill you physically, kill you and and sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.
Speaker 3:No, no, no you're fine.
Speaker 2:You're fine because I think about like, um, like I was just thinking about how often you used to travel and preach and um, but never once did you. This is where we can get into a little bit of something else. But, um, you never once promoted yourself. Like you, you barely would even share. If somebody shared something about you and you never would would put it out. There is that part of like.
Speaker 2:Okay, I don't want to do anything that the lord isn't, isn't leading me to do, or like I was thinking there were times that you know probably, where I mean you maybe preach, like every day of the week at somewhere. You know, um, you probably could have even went on the road and not had a church, you know, and just went straight, itinerant, you know pastor, with just a wee bit of marketing, probably didn't even just one website with the clip. You know what I mean. You know donation minimum five grand. And then you know the next thing, you know. You know.
Speaker 2:I mean what was that? Like you know, uh, I, so you think about that. Like don't unless, unless the look, if you're supposed to be somewhere, the Lord will put you there, he will put you there. It's not on you. Don't try to force your way into anything, don't try to put your foot in any door that the Lord hadn't opened. And if it's meant to be, it's meant to be, it's gonna be, because they're it's, it's a weight, not just it is a physical, but the the for there's forces.
Speaker 2:Yes, sir, yes, sir, yes sir there are spiritual forces that that, if you're not ready, I'm just saying that's no, speak on it what was that man in the new testament that tried to cast that demon out and he wasn't ready for it?
Speaker 3:and the demons turned on him he said who is you?
Speaker 1:Paul, I know Jesus, I know when your grandma stay and he put the beats on that man. Like, seriously Like. To me, the difference is David and Saul and the way they started their ministries. I think a lot of times you'll hear people great, I got to preach on myself now, lord.
Speaker 1:Talk sir, there's a lot of people that will tell you I see the anointing of God in your life. I see where you're going. I see your fears. There's really there. Do not move until God tells you to Amen, or you're going to end up like Saul. Yep, the people elected the people elected Saul. They were like he looks like he could be a great king. He looks tall and strong and we want a king, and so let's give us Saul. And God said I didn't put him there, but if y'all want to put him there, go ahead. Meanwhile, David is doing his faithfulness in the back pastures where nobody can see him, and that's the one that got elevated. Even when the prophet got there, his own daddy didn't even try to elevate him to the position. God had to tell the prophet there's somebody missing in here, you need to ask some questions, and I feel like Then he went back to serving.
Speaker 1:He went back to serving. He didn't get his crown in that moment. Man, I have been in some positions where I have rushed it and put myself in places and positions and call-ins and I look around and I'm like dang, why do I feel like the glory has left me? Why do I feel like I'm not equipped? I was so confident before this moment and God never told me to stand in that position because I wasn't equipped yet. Crazy Be David, not Saul.
Speaker 3:Yeah, crazy. Be David, not Saul, rj. Going back to what you said, man, I I I get a lot of flack and from peers, from friends, from family, for and I may err too far on the side of not branding and stuff like that, and that's kind of what people say is I go too far, extreme, but like it, it's a fear in me and I hope it's a righteous fear that I don't want to. I feel like the more you try to hide, the better equipped you are when God comes to find you, and so I would encourage people you see this in the life of Jesus where he would do a miracle and he said don't tell anybody, don't go tell anybody, don't tell anybody that that's what happened. And like that's a part of Christianity that we don't teach very well and we very rarely hear taught in a world of branding and marketing and, you know, getting everything out, like there's a spiritual part of that.
Speaker 3:Some things were supposed to be secret, some things were supposed to be in private, and I think social media is a big part of kind of over-publicizing everything in our life and nothing's so much wrong with that other than the point of there are some things that God intended for your right hand not to know what your left hand was doing, because your reward and then your promotion is not in somebody's commendation. So when Jesus told him, don't go tell anybody and some of them, they couldn't stop, they had to tell it, they had to share it, they had to get it out. All that. But his heart was I'm okay with nothing, but you and my father knowing what I did, and that was okay and that was satisfaction. And for me I think that's my goal have I probably cost myself a lot and I'm okay with that. I am completely fine with that, because I want to know whatever opportunities God brings in my path, I want to know that it wasn't because I broke the door open to get in there.
Speaker 3:And I want to say this to somebody that is in that patient stage you cannot hide anywhere that God can't find you when he needs you, you, you, I don't care. Who hates you, who despises you, who doesn't like you, who's jealous of you, who's overlooked you. None of that is a is a factor, and when God wants to use you, he will come find you. If you are in a shepherd field, if you're at wherever you are, god is God where to find you and he'll bring you at the right time to use you for what he needs you for. And so all you men are witnesses of this, y'all that are sitting at the table, y'all are witnesses of this, y'all have done this and continue to do this.
Speaker 3:And I think there's people in my life that I know, like my dad, dad giving me opportunities when I was not ready for I didn't ask for it, but that was his call. Like he, he wouldn't let me hide, so he pushed me out. There's other ministers and men and women that, at opportunity, they refuse to, so they push me out. Um, and promotion doesn't come from the North, the South, the East and the West. It comes from the Lord, uh, and he uses people to, and he uses people to push you in those directions.
Speaker 2:Amen.
Speaker 2:I was talking to my son about. You know he was talking about don't let your right hand know what your left hand doing. And talking about you know you think about. Jesus said like fast, and if you're fasting don't let anybody know. Um, for the people, that the people that let everybody know that's their reward, is the, the praise of the people. And so I was talking to him, um, because we were talking about doing something, um, something that was on his heart to do, and I was like, okay, in this world, we're like I want us to think of it like. We're like I want us to think of it like this we're like secret agents for the kingdom, right?
Speaker 2:We're like ninjas, okay, we don't have to tell nobody what we're doing. This is something we're doing, okay, we're going to do it, and we're going to do it for the sake of the people we're doing it for, and we're going to see how long we can do it without telling anybody.
Speaker 4:So good bro, without telling anybody we can do it without telling anybody.
Speaker 2:So good bro, Without telling anybody so good bro and that got them excited about doing something without the acknowledgement of doing it. We got the audience of one and we're sent here to serve other people. Those are the two things we're here to do. So let's learn this in this small thing that's not so small, come on. Yeah, let's learn this in the small thing that we don't need. We ain't even got to tell your mama.
Speaker 3:We keep it secret from mama. Somebody put it on Instagram. What you said was so powerful when you do something and and do it to to let everybody know it's no longer about that person anymore, it's about you, yeah, and you said, let's do it for the sake of that person, not let me do something for my sake, let me do something for the sake of that. And that's true service. When you're serving somebody and it is all about that person. What they they, what they're getting from it, what they're gaining from it, what they're, how they're growing from it, what they're learning from it, it is all about that person, not just about the one that's giving it to them. That's powerful.
Speaker 2:Cause I hate to see videos of people feeding is my number one hated videos. It's weird. It's weird, but things like that where you're like, okay, why did you do this? I mean for the following okay, so you went up and gave a guy $1,000, yet you got 10 million views and way more money than that coming back on your ad revenue. Like, what was the purpose? What was the purpose of doing that? You know I ain't trying to throw. You know throw stones. I didn't mean to go out.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to keep it on the positive.
Speaker 1:Therefore, when you do charitable deeds, do not sound the trumpet before, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory for men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. It's always interesting to me that Jesus spoke the most gangster to Christians yeah, the most like when he was putting that divine thunder. It was to the people in the synagogues.
Speaker 2:I just want to say it's easy a trap to fall into because you want people to know that you're doing good. You want people to know that you're doing good things. Hey, look, look you know and you forget that the one you know, the one that really matters, is always watching. But we forget and we want other people to praise us and to say oh look at Isaiah.
Speaker 2:He did those announcements so good. That was the one you pulled. I thought a lemonade stand, girl Fags, that was one one you pulled, I thought a lemonade stand girl Vags.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was one of those moments I didn't see them by the way. No, I would have stopped.
Speaker 2:I looked on Sunday. Yeah, I tried to find.
Speaker 1:Shout out to the lemonade stand. Shout out to the lemonade stand. Oh yeah, I think.
Speaker 4:I'm a movie nerd over here in this part and I ain't even going to try to come up with a movie. But you ever notice in like I was thinking about what you said about a secret agent that typically in the movies that the most dangerous person is the one that'll never get recognition for being the hero in the movie, like when they're in the army or they're in the navy or the military. It's like you have to be willing to go over there and know that basically you're a ghost. You'll never get rewarded for saving this country.
Speaker 4:You'll never get rewarded for saving this from a nuclear crisis, and they're like the most dangerous person and they're like, perfectly fine, they still risked it, put their whole life on the line to save people, and the people will never know. You'll be sitting right beside them and they're the most lethal person in the world, but you'll never know, because they don't want the boast, they don't want the accolade. They find the satisfaction and gratification in you are good, you are saved. I put my life on the line to make sure you are good, and I used to want to be Navy SEAL until I seen what I had to go through to become a Navy SEAL. I'm not built like that, and even spirituality-wise, even thinking about Pastor Jason and this is I don't have that.
Speaker 4:I grew up in a family household, like Isaiah and Pastor Jason, to see ministers that got hit with certain things, and this may be a little selfish, but I know. I too feel like I was told a long time ago that I had a call in my life, but I was running from it for the simple fact of what you did. Say, though, even though I didn't see that, I could see that in the Bible Most people called. They didn't have an easy life. So people that ran and wanted to be in the leadership I'm like I don't know what for, because did you not see what they had to go through before they got to the glory days? And some of them still didn't even make it. They just had the faith to keep speaking for other people to see it.
Speaker 4:And I have enough problems talking to my mom and dad when something just happened to me over here on the right and five minutes before their conversation I'm trying to get myself together to talk to them about it. So now you want me to be going through. Whatever I'm going through, I'm married, we're all married at the table. So let's say you're going through I mean a huge argument with your wife. Then you got to go minister to a couple and not let that affect what you say. Let's say you just had a financial situation and you got to go minister to somebody about that financial situation and it's like so literally you have to learn how to carry a backpack with your problems so you can throw them in there, so your hands can be free to hold up somebody else. And so for me I was like, yeah, I ain't built for that either.
Speaker 4:Like I'm still a little narcissistic, selfish, I guess, as a christian, um, but then I'm gonna be honest, though there was no peace in running from it, um, even still, I find more joy in carrying somebody else's problem trying to be there, come on and put mine to the side and I've determined and I kind of spoke about this on Sunday a little bit, but I've just been really dealing with what we have deemed as successful, and I think a lot of people have gotten more caught into showing Instagram and showing the materialistic things of things. So if I don't have a whole bunch of followers listening to what God shared or put on my heart, then I'm not successful or I'm not really in line with God. If I don't have this house, if I don't have this car, if I don't have these things materialistically and spiritually, I must be doing something wrong. But they negate the small successful moments and accolades of.
Speaker 4:I was able to forgive somebody that just intentionally hurt me and I seen it coming a mile away, but just like Jesus, I was able to be. Like you know what Go do, what you're going to do, I'm still going to go to the cross and die for you anyway. I'm still going to pray for you. I'm going to pray for the person that stuck the spear in my side.
Speaker 4:I'm going to pray for the person that's nailing me to the cross right now, slandering my name and doing everything else, and I can be that in line with God and be in that place. That is success in my opinion. That is growth. That is a whole other level of walking I'm still working on it, but it's still a whole other level and it produces more joy to be able to see that in somebody and go speak to that and free them from something that's keeping them trapped for years than it is to be able to give them money.
Speaker 4:Now, I would like to be able to give them money, but to be able to speak to a thing that would change their life better, their marriage better, their hope in their self, release them from depression, is so much more successful and so much more desired in my days now than being able to say, oh, I got a million followers on Instagram and I said this and it went viral. If I just able to say, oh, I got a million followers on instagram and I said this and it went viral. If I just could say I prayed for so-and-so and they were blessed, and I don't even have to say it like that to say I was able to. I had the honor to speak to this person. I had the honor of knowing this person and they're like you know just what you shared or prayed. It really helped me get through this. If nobody else knows and they just tell me that, is enough for me.
Speaker 1:That's how I knew I wasn't reading my Bible enough, because the church leaders, the big, great leaders, they didn't have a lot of people like an audience around them, like when you think about, like Elijah. We know who Elijah is now, but he won't stand on top of the mountain shouting to a multitude of people talking about you know, he was living a very private life, doing his ministry. Samuel very proper. They hated the prophets in the Bible. You feel me? If God, if I would have had anointing, it would have ended like Moses. Moses started off strong. Somebody messed him up. He hit that rock. God was like hey, buddy, you can't make it over here Like I got that Moses.
Speaker 3:Is that?
Speaker 4:sacrilegious Isaiah's study.
Speaker 1:Bible. That was the translation. Don't buy my study Bible.
Speaker 4:You don't need it, but to your point though. I heard Martin Luther King's daughter say this about him my father today is one of the most celebrated men in the world, but when he was alive he was the most hated. So you think about the prophets and those in the Bible when they were alive. We glorify them now because we saw the whole story, but when they were living it, people hated them.
Speaker 4:And we're like nah, I can't bear that weight of being hated. They weren't looking for the fame, they weren't looking for the fortune, they were just looking to be in alignment with christ.
Speaker 2:So pastor jason, this is gonna be anybody feel free to to hop in, but I'm just thinking about the what? Exactly what chris said. But the year after year after year of you got your own problems, you got your own issues, you got your own struggles, you got your own whatever it is anxieties, and then you're also listening to everybody else's, you're preaching to them. You're you're preaching to them. You're like just a year, you hear so much over the last few years of people talking about burnout and people talking about um, you know that type of thing where just at some point they hit the end of the rope and then they got to take, you know, some really long sabbatical and get away from everything, and that that type of thing and um, which I've never known you to do, and like, how do you, how do you handle that?
Speaker 3:I don't know that I always handle it well. Um one, I have a lot of people praying for me. Um, I'm thankful for my mom and dad that offer counsel that I lean on a lot. I'm thankful for people that I've talked to when I'm in those stages of of it becoming too much. Um, I, I, I hesitate to even like share, um, because it's really the formula is the grace of God. Um, I look back on it sometimes and I'm like there's no way that I should have made it through that or there's no way that I.
Speaker 3:But in all honesty I mentioned this earlier when I was talking about my dad and hopefully y'all know this well enough to y'all know me and I don't say this I am so thankful that I love the Lord. That is, that is my biggest flex today. Is that I truly I want to honor the Lord. That is my biggest flex today is that I truly I want to honor the Lord. I want to. I love the Lord, I love God.
Speaker 3:With all of the mistakes and with all of the failures, I'm so grateful for God and from a young kid, I felt like just otherworldly, like I, just I love him and I'm so grateful for him, and I know that is a gift from God. And today and I say this very much, like David said all this other stuff you can take and he can have it back anytime he wants it. If he wants it today it's his. But I just don't want to. I don't want he is, but I just don't want to lose his presence. I don't want to lose his voice. I don't want to lose the fact that I get to hear him talk to me and I get to hear him, I get to be in communion with him. Those are the things that mean more to me than anything else and, honestly, that's what it has kept.
Speaker 2:The time with the Lord, the time in His presence.
Speaker 3:That wasn't enough of a formula answer for you. I'm sorry, no, no.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, I'm guessing those things follow the love you're saying that you have for God.
Speaker 3:Everything that I do on Sundays, I don't love't love it and I think that's. I love the Lord and that's an assignment and I don't, I don't. I say I don't love it, I enjoy it. I'm thankful that God asked me to do it, but my identity is not in it. My I don't feel like if I stop doing that, my world's gonna fall apart. I don't feel that way. I love my family. I'm so grateful that I get to go home to my family every day. I get to go home to a strong relationship with the Lord where I can lay in a floor with the curtains closed and I'm happy with myself and I'm happy with God and those are the things that really that's where my life is built and I'm thankful. Even my personality like the fact that I'm more introverted than I am extroverted that has been a gift to me, because I go out to give and I come back to be refueled and be filled up, and I think that's a gift. And I know in my life and I share this a lot with the people around me I know in my life where I am getting um, where I'm I'm getting, I'm giving out more than I'm filled up.
Speaker 3:It's when I am easily irritable when stuff gets on my nerves really fast. I am easily irritable, whether it be with my family, with my kids, with my wife, with people that I love. When small things get on my nerves, I immediately know you need to shut yourself in a room for an hour or so and you need to shut the door and get yourself back right. And I think that's with maturity too. I'm learning, I've learned and am learning my on the gas tank when it says you're close to E, that is it for me. When I'm easily irritable, I know that at that moment I'm open to temptation, I'm open to the encroachment of bitterness, I'm open to being led to make emotional decisions, to being led to make emotional decisions, and I'm learning. That is when I'm getting close to E. That's my. You need to feel back up, and so I think for me, that's the burnout. The burnout prevention is learning your own signals of okay, you're not as filled up as you need to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think one thing I've been praying for, not only this church but just like the local church in general, is that the five-fold ministry is in full effect because it shares the weight and the burden when you've got the evangelists doing what they need to do, and the pastor and the teacher and the prophet and the apostle, like all of them are moving at once it just makes it so much easier to kind of share that load and that weight, because it's true, that's how God orchestrated it together.
Speaker 1:The podcast the six finger on that, because, like to me, to your point, I don't think the pastor should be concerned with the branding. Yeah, that's the evangelist's job. Now, that might not be biblical, but that's where I put it. The marketing I kind of put it in the evangelist's one, you feel me. But the pastor might not have to be the lead of the hospitality. That's not their position.
Speaker 1:The prophet shouldn't have to be the one that's leading curriculum and teaching it. That's not a part of their gift and that's the teacher's job. You feel me. So I feel like there is a grace that the Lord has given us in the five-fold ministry to say, hey, you don't need to be concerned with it all, I've given you a body to work with so good man.
Speaker 3:That's great, isaiah I think is that episode. That's powerful man. Well said Grace is sufficient.
Speaker 1:Amen, well said Amen.
Speaker 3:And I want to add to that too, like I'm not taking away you said that. Well, I'm not taking away from what people do in branding. I just I agree. I just don't think it's our job to do, but there are people that are gifted to do that and that's very, very well said.
Speaker 2:Great job Also with this. Okay, here's a pet peeve. Let's get into episode pet peeve Okay, when pastors quote themselves and then on their own profile put a dash and their name. As if you couldn't just make the post without the quotation or the sign, and that's for everybody listening.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:If you got an issue with that, you text the pod. This is RJ. I check social media a couple times a week. Feel free to hit me up, rj Mills. Oh wow, oh wow.
Speaker 1:That man dropped his Addy.
Speaker 2:That is ridiculous.
Speaker 1:It bothers me. I think you need to call people's names.
Speaker 2:You have somebody in your heart. Three people popped in my mind.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the episode, guys, not the episode. Guys, not the episode.
Speaker 4:Go ahead, Chris. Again, I don't know if it's the 2.30 time frame, but I feel the weight of what we talked about. We can't go without a prayer.
Speaker 3:Amen, go ahead To end it out.
Speaker 4:RJ, you want to do it Sure.
Speaker 2:Father, lord, we thank you for this day. We thank you for uh, I thank you for these brothers that we get to sit around and talk, talk about you, talk about your word and talk about the kingdom and lord, we pray that everybody that's listening, I pray, pray that this be edifying. Lord, I pray for the people in leadership, the people in ministry. Father, I pray that you would continue to give them grace. I pray that you would give them endurance. I pray that you would give them strength in their mind, in their walk. Lord, and I pray for the congregants. I pray for the other people in the church, the body, lord, and I pray for the congregants. I pray for the other people in the church, the body, lord, I pray that you would strengthen them. Lord, I pray that we would help one another. I pray that you would give us a heart, lord, to love each other and to forgive each other and to walk with each other. And, lord, I pray that you would continue to strengthen our heart for you. Lord, I pray that you continue to increase in our lives.
Speaker 2:Lord, and I pray also pray for the person, lord, that text in. I pray for his girlfriend. I pray that you would heal her heart and all those involved, lord, that might have been hurt from that church. Lord, I pray that you will bring healing there. I pray that you'll bring restoration and I pray that she would now be able to minister with those same things, lord, that you healed with her, that she will be able to turn around and help heal others that's been through the same thing, lord, and that she will see the purpose, lord, and what she had to go through, and I pray that you would take over Lord in their lives and I pray that they would walk with you, lord, for the rest of eternity. Lord, we thank you for this day. I pray that you'd be with us the rest of this week and we love you and we praise you In Jesus' name, amen.
Speaker 1:Amen. Thank y'all for listening. See y'all next week.