Deeper Roots Podcast
We explore what it means to live a life rooted in Christ—beyond Sunday sermons.
Whether you’re planted in the church or still searching for your soil, Deeper Roots is your weekly reminder to stay grounded, ask better questions, and grow in the direction God is calling you.
Deeper Roots Podcast
Church marketing sucks, Pastors make too much money, and how church critics never get their hands dirty
How much money is to much money to make as a church leader? Or do we not really care? Join in on the coversation by texting the pod.
• How much emotional support do men need
• Whether Christians should make money from their gifts
• The difference between having wealth and being controlled by wealth
• How marketing expertise can effectively serve ministry purposes
• The importance of being part of a church community before offering critique
I was thinking, and I probably should have said it, remember how we were talking last week about just church hurt and for the leadership standpoint. So it's not necessarily for everybody.
Speaker 1:This is a man thing but we never touched on. I'm curious about how much emotional support does a man need? And I was thinking about that because I seen a clip on Facebook where the guy showed up at the barbershop I should have brought it up then when the guy showed up at the barbershop with literally a bouquet of flowers like lilies have y'all seen that Like literally lilies and all that, and he was giving it to his barber and he said you know, I heard this man's mom passed. I'm not into him like that.
Speaker 1:But this man was there for me when I was thinking about suicide, when I was strung out on drugs and I heard his mom pass and I just wanted to give him his flowers, literally. But y'all ain't in your mind about what this looks like to you, but I just want this man to know I love him. I just something. I thought of giving him to him in a, I guess, a metaphorical way, like I gave you literal flowers, but it's more so to give you your flowers for all you've done in my life Dapped him up, gave him a hug in front of everybody in the barbershop. Of course he was like I appreciate it, but as beautiful as that was, I don't think for me.
Speaker 3:I don't want no flowers. Right, I'm going to tell you right now, I don't think flowers is my way of receiving my you, my metaphorical flowers in that sense, but to the sentiment of being emotionally equipped and mature enough to give a kind act to someone is something that men should do more often, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what I was thinking Also, because also I seen the clip. I don't know if y'all seen this.
Speaker 4:Either way, I think Chris is asking for some flowers. No, no.
Speaker 1:I'm not, by any means.
Speaker 2:I'm good on the flowers let me ask you this question, even like from your wife would you appreciate flowers from your wife?
Speaker 1:and that's why I was going with it. Because, like, when somebody passes in the family, like was it because the man gave it to them? People tend to send flowers to a woman or the family. His mom had passed, so he gave him the flowers. I don't want flowers. I'm okay with a text of condolences. Prayer for you. Praying for you. You don't even really have to give me a card, Just you saying it and acknowledging it. I'm okay. So you're more like verbal, I guess. Yeah, Verbal I mean maybe.
Speaker 4:We're working on him. He still has trouble telling us he loves us.
Speaker 3:He didn't say you know, I said it to him one time. He never said it back Sometimes he'll go.
Speaker 2:I'm joking, it's a joke, I think flowers.
Speaker 3:I'm joking.
Speaker 2:It's a joke, I think flowers are a reach Like that's tough to give to another man. But I mean, I agree the sentiment is nice, the heart behind it is good. I appreciate all of that. It felt like it came the way you said it. It felt like it came from a positive, mature place. But yeah, I still think culturally, flowers have a connotation.
Speaker 2:Remember when yes I was thinking the same thing somebody gave you flowers. Another man gave you flowers two of the most manly, strongest men I know gave me flowers in front of a whole church and it was.
Speaker 4:it was to represent um, his to be wife, who was not a wife yet, and it was a what do you call it?
Speaker 2:an underground joke, or prophecy, or prophecy.
Speaker 4:Because I think y'all had y'all started dating. Y'all hadn't even started dating.
Speaker 2:They hadn't even started dating.
Speaker 4:They hadn't even started dating Rosetta yet. But he had told at a lunch me him Pastor Dwight Winfred, and he was telling us there's this girl man. He told us her name was Rosetta and this and that Shout out Rosetta, and he was telling us about it and stuff and then a few months later got him some roses. Oh, because of the name yeah, at pastor appreciation, pastor appreciation service and he and he went through not just, not just any rose, and then, like he gave this deacon winfrey gave this whole speech that was like an underground, meaning that only a few of us knew anything about it.
Speaker 4:It was a beautiful moment. How was those roses?
Speaker 2:My face was as red as those roses were, because I knew what was going on, and I knew y'all knew what was going on and my face was red. But then there was still that connotation of like why hasn't somebody stopped this?
Speaker 1:Why isn't somebody like hold on, hold on.
Speaker 2:We should not be handing roses from one man to another man. The joke was amazing and I had, just a few months earlier I think I was, you know thinking it was a confidential moment sharing with my brothers.
Speaker 1:If there's this one girl in my life that, but it was not.
Speaker 2:It became part of Pastor Appreciation Service and it was amazing and now, looking back on it, it was y'all are filled with the Spirit and prophets because y'all took one comment and bought roses for it.
Speaker 4:It wasn't one comment.
Speaker 2:You're right, it was a lot of comments, it was in my heart.
Speaker 4:You were definitely filling that lady. It was in my heart and we wanted you to be happy.
Speaker 2:Hey, Rosetta, I love you.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, if somebody wants to be prophetic and give me some flowers, like you know, if you're trying to take RJ's advice, you can give me the flowers that got like hundreds wrapped in it.
Speaker 2:I'll definitely take that bouquet.
Speaker 1:I mean, if you're being prophetic with it let's just go ahead and sweep life into my pockets.
Speaker 3:He want a dollar tree, he want a dollar tree.
Speaker 4:We call it the little Christmas trees where they hang the money on. Yeah, exactly, I guess you're talking about the ones that's rolled up like they rolled it up, like it's little roses.
Speaker 2:I've seen that done in church too, which feels a little bit like Magic City A little bit. Wait a minute, hold on, bastard what you know About magic you been to.
Speaker 4:Sodom and Gomorrah lately sir, you been.
Speaker 2:I was. I just knew what to pray against while you were in Atlanta. You like that, and having your lips pitched, I just knew what to pray against.
Speaker 1:Oh, he did come back with greasy lips after Atlanta. Oh my God, I just thought about that.
Speaker 4:Look, look. Y'all are getting me in trouble in the bubble.
Speaker 1:I have heard that the chicken wings are good.
Speaker 2:Who is a basketball player? The only reason I know Magic City is there's a basketball player from Atlanta. Who is it? Lou Williams.
Speaker 3:Lou Williams.
Speaker 1:You remember when he got in trouble a few years ago by going to Magic. City. That's the only reason I know about Magic City. He said he liked the lemon pepper wings. That was my point. That's the only reason I know about magic. He said he liked the lemon pepper wings.
Speaker 3:That was my point. You know y'all get me in trouble now in the public spaces Because I'll be walking around the church and I'll be noticing people are looking not at my eyes but at my lips.
Speaker 2:And it's throwing me off a little bit. There's a lot of people that's looking at you. Quite funny for some of the things that you're saying.
Speaker 3:There's a target on my back for sure.
Speaker 2:You've lost a lot of respect in the congregation.
Speaker 4:There's a target on your back. You held up the target.
Speaker 3:So many, but you know what?
Speaker 4:People have a real issue with your King JB, the Justin Bieber take.
Speaker 3:The Justin Bieber take is haunting me. However, I found somebody who listens to every single episode that agrees with me On what Justin Bieber being the greatest male singer of all time and for a record.
Speaker 2:Not my wife. It's gotta be a 13-year-old. No, no, it's gotta be a 13-year-old.
Speaker 3:No, it's a grown man. I ain't gonna name drop on the pod, I'll tell y'all after. But he was like you know what? You right it is JB. I'm validated.
Speaker 2:In the book of Proverbs chapter 17, verse 28,. Solomon writes this. He said even a fool when he holds his peace is counted wise, and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding. That means that everyone is considered wise until they have a platform to start talking, and then, when they have a platform to start talking, the foolishness starts coming out.
Speaker 3:The pettiness in the pod today is thick. I'm quoting scripture the pettiness in the pod today is thick, I'm quoting scripture. And some of the other translations say it is better. No, no, you're not going to give me more translations.
Speaker 2:It is better to remain silent and be thoughtful than to speak and remove all doubt.
Speaker 3:It's not a translation, but it's just a common paraphrase of of this proverb so, uh, this is a deeper roots podcast with no longer isaiah, it's just chris rj and pastor jason. We're talking about everything from life and godliness and uh, yeah, that was a crazy cold opening for the beginning one. I will no longer be speaking for the rest of the pod. No, all love, all love, all love. We did have a text message come in. We really appreciate you guys sending your text messages and communicating with us and I mean it sparked the whole last episode. So keep talking to us.
Speaker 3:This one came in from Virginia I think it was about episode two weeks ago or a week ago and they said can we please have a part two of that conversation? Didn't want that one to end. I kept hearing the word and kept performing surgery on my heart. Everything came back to a heart posture. And who has your heart? Is it in the world or is it Christ? Thank you for your submission to God's plan for his people. So thank you all so much. Appreciate you guys. You guys are wonderful.
Speaker 3:I mean you guys hearing from you guys just gives us so much strength and encouragement in our hearts to keep talking, including me, regardless of what.
Speaker 2:Your Bible commentary is incredible. Like you got a lot to add when it comes to theology and scripture. And I'm encouraging you to stay with like, stay outside of the music entertainment world and outside of the basketball world. But everything else you're saying is gold, but that is trash.
Speaker 3:I mean, wow, I've been getting some looks, I've been getting some looks, I've been getting some looks. But you did mention the music industry.
Speaker 4:This is payback from your comment On that intro video that Chris did. This is payback. Let me tell you something, bro.
Speaker 3:I went to sleep Sunday nap I think that's a holy part of the sabbath is your sunday nap. I wake up from my sunday nap. I turn over instagram, open it up. Impact church releases the hardest pastor walkout trailer I have ever seen. I mean Christopher Nolan and Spike Lee and Jordan Peele they created this trailer. I was so hyped this must have been from ESPN. Like I didn't think I was on the church app so I dropped it in the group, kind of just lightly fanning the flame. Pastor Jason, you look like you was about to call the Autobots. You look like you were in the Star Commander.
Speaker 1:My bad man. I know you will get this slack back.
Speaker 2:I loved it, man. I thought you did a great job. You put a lot of work and effort into it and it's just, you will always have Tobias and Sanballat it. And and it's just, you will always have tobias and sand ballots, which is a biblical reference to the book of nehemiah, that when you're building a wall, there will always be some people that aren't building the wall, that want to throw rocks at you and say that your wall would fall down if a little fox walk walks across it. So they'll always be haters.
Speaker 3:Buddy, that walkout was heavy, though you got to say when you saw the video what were your thoughts.
Speaker 2:I trust Chris. I trust him. I do. I trust him. So I never like stuff where I'm in. I never enjoy those I'm in. I never enjoy those. I hardly ever listen to them. But I respect him and so I trust him. We talked about last podcast is that some people have, you know, certain roles in the body and branding is not my role. So I trust those who do, so I just left it alone. It was like all right.
Speaker 3:You know, after I dropped that text, he called me. He called me. He was like yo, zay, was it bad? I said no, it wasn't bad at all, I loved it.
Speaker 2:That's Elder. Chris called him.
Speaker 4:I did not call him.
Speaker 2:I don't care.
Speaker 4:I was wondering okay, that's, that's good Cause I seen you throw it out. I didn't see it right away. I seen it later and I was like there's been no response and I was like I'm not sure how, cause I seen Chris catching the video but while like Pastor Jason walking up and stuff, and so I knew he, I knew he was the least part of making it.
Speaker 4:And then you know, pastor Jason was obviously in the video and you were joking about it. I said I have to support the joke. I cannot allow nobody to say anything back. We have to keep it light.
Speaker 2:Tobias always has to have a standout. There always has to be two.
Speaker 3:It has to be two. If that's what you need, I got you that's right I did.
Speaker 4:Now I felt like I was fair and balanced on my response. I didn't jump in and pile on Right.
Speaker 3:Just enough, just enough, just enough to say hey, I support comedy. First, I'm trying to segue. I'm trying to segue.
Speaker 3:Segue Segue. Should Christians make money off their gifts or does that feel a little sacrilegious? So there's a conversation right now happening about Maverick City. I saw some more pods come out and they're all talking about how it feels a little businessy to work in a church and then turn it from Christ to corporation. Like how do you separate those lines?
Speaker 3:You see people all the time being like, well, the pastor should never have dot, dot, dot, dot dot. Or the worship leader's shoes was too nice, or all these little like what is the pastor should never have dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. Or the worship leader's shoes was too nice, or all these little like what is the difference between ministry and industry? And how do we navigate that? And you have people using scripture to be like, well, the workman is worthy of hire. And then people are like, well, paul didn't have a Lexus, you know. So I feel like there's a big divide in how can we use our gifts creatively, whether that's in media or front of stage or back of the stage, and still navigate this thing of Christianity in a humble Christian walk, but make a little money, or think about the business. This was all sparked from the Maverick City podcast. I don't know if you guys had a chance to listen to that podcast, but what were your reactions and thoughts?
Speaker 1:We're talking about the one with. I can't think of his name. The manager that podcast, but what were your reactions and thoughts? We talking about the one with I can't think of his name the manager, the manager, yeah, uh. So um, to rightfully divided, I think, business mindset. He, first of all, he was blatant, honest and truthful he wasn't sitting there saying that he was in it for the worship.
Speaker 1:at that point he was definitely led by God for his business ventures, but he definitely made it clear that certain things were business ventures. And I mean I think he started out with a statement of it ain't no money in that.
Speaker 1:I can't remember what he was discussing, but he's like you can't make no money like this, like in longevity terms. If other people are getting paid for it, why can't y'all get paid for it? And this is the blueprint to get paid for it. If you're doing it and they're already paying you anyway, it's just what is your rates. So, as far as a business standpoint of somebody that's allowing or it seems like God is speaking to them and they're allowing God to drive their focus and thoughts, I was all for it. Now I still wrestle with the should they get paid or shouldn't they get paid? Because I have different views.
Speaker 1:Right, you got other artists that are getting paid and are pumping nothing, nothing positive, nothing influential, nothing good into your life and you can go to these concerts and pay them all this money and not blink an eye. But then you have people that are just singing. They're singing things that can get you through situations. They're singing things that are promoting your life or bettering your life. If you take the words, but if you take what Pastor Jason said, a few podcasts before, they still shouldn't dictate your theology, your principle, your life, but at the same time, it does give you something positive, to listen to something influential. As we all know, music is the one thing that, no matter what you do, you can't shut it out. You can't sit here and be like, yes, I'm not going to like this song, I'm not going to know the words to this song. If you hear any song enough, you're going to learn the words, whether you intend to or not.
Speaker 1:Um, so, for them to be doing something positive and on the road, I don't see. I personally don't see nothing wrong with them getting paid for it. I don't see nothing wrong with pastors being paid either, like it's their life. It's, it's literally their life, and I do feel god is blessing them. So I don't think they should be walking around here begging you of, like, if you can't give me a million dollars, I ain't speaking at your type thing, but I don't see nothing wrong with blessing a pastor and him having nice things Because, like, if you have a church that has 10,000 members, you take a dollar from every member and that pastor's getting $10,000 per Sunday and that's just a dollar, if we broke it down, and that's not like him trying to rob them or nothing.
Speaker 1:That's literally, if it averaged out to everybody getting a dollar. He's making $10,000 a Sunday or $10,000 a service. If you decided to pay him that way I don't know how they're structured, but if he wasn't on salary, we're like we're just going to do it based off what we collect and you balanced it out so he was still with four Sundays that could be up to $40,000 in a month. If you did that and I'm just doing it for the sake of numbers, I know everybody's church isn't that big, but if they do have a church now we're coming for them, for somebody giving them a dollar on Sunday. I mean, you don't think what they have is, honestly, I think it's worth more than that Of value.
Speaker 2:Yeah, true value.
Speaker 1:So I personally don't think there's nothing wrong with paying them and them having well lives and being able to take care of other people's lives, because, honestly, if you're in that role, your life is always on scene, like you're always on. You don't have a page you get to turn off or a cell phone really, because there's still life events. If you're not giving life lessons from somebody from the congregation, you're still ministering to your family. You still have those things. You still have that part that then comes out in your sermon sometimes. So you're always on.
Speaker 1:But that's just my opinion. I actually think cops and nurses and everybody else should be paid more. I think we have gotten it backwards. You pay these entertainers, you pay these people that play sports and I love basketball as much as I love basketball. I think it should be a cap. I don't think they should be a billion dollars to play ball. I know it's based off some of their sales, but I would think you'd rather flip some of that and pay people that are actually going to advance and teach the future. Like, why aren't you paying these people that are having to deal with people's kids and teach these kids that are disrespectful a lot now and they're like, they're going to be the next president, they're going to be the next nurse or doctor or police officer or firefighter. They're the ones that really should be getting paid.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, and I think obviously we have to separate. You know a band going on a world tour and a church like working for a local church.
Speaker 4:Because definitely, if you're going out and there and there's no telling what they're raking in with album sales and streams and you know all that, then you know of course they're gonna be making money and then, uh, with the like you said with the church, I mean, okay, if you don't, it's like what do you? What do you want? Because if you want pastors that can give their full attention and their full spirit and mind and time to what they do, then they need to be paid, like they would be able to go and get paid. I heard somebody talk about, I think Bishop Younger, when he visited one time, listed out all the different things that a pastor does. You know he's a therapist, he's a pastor, he's a. You know like you think about all the roles?
Speaker 2:if they actually got.
Speaker 4:If a good pastor got paid their rightful wages, what an hourly wage would be would be astronomical. And then I think there's a lot like you see people talking about all the time some of these popular pastors Also probably not a good idea to wear a $12,000 outfit.
Speaker 2:It's just not wise.
Speaker 4:I mean I'm uncomfortable wearing a pair of shoes that cost a couple hundred dollars. Yeah, just because I know that there's people, you know that me they can't afford them. You know it's like you know there is. I think there is a line of um, I don't know what as far as cap and what, how much money they make and this and that, but I think of being flashy, I think is not godly. I get having style and stuff like that, but I think wearing a $5,000 pair of shoes is just, I think there is. I think you didn't consult the Holy Spirit when you did that. So I think those type of things is what bothered the flashiness. You know, and I mean I get that some of those people may have a 50,000 people come on a Sunday, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you got to wear it.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean. It feels like we all agree people should get paid for what they do, but we might not agree with the perceptions, Like we don't want to know that you're wearing it. I think it's like the weird gray feeling of it which I have. Only hot takes this episode. Y'all going to hate me. I'm just telling you right now I'm coming in hotter than a Starbucks coffee right now. The priest did wear an ephod. It had some jewels on it. The tabernacle of Moses was a little flashy. Now you could say the tabernacle is not a person, it was towards God and all this kind of stuff, right. But it's like I don't, Matter of fact, I'm not going to get too hot today because then I'm going to get canceled.
Speaker 4:Well, they're just going to come for you and find you on Sunday, right?
Speaker 3:Come for me on Sunday. Okay, there is marketing that gifted people in our Christian space have that helps fund the business and their family and the things that they want to do and want to accomplish. Okay, so if I sell that album, if I'm an artist, something like that, I do need a little bit of marketing. So I might pop up on your feed more often than your favorite local singer. Because I have marketing. I need to sell this world tour. Right, I might be on my way to ramping up my business and so you might see me a little more often, might pop up in more places than not, and then you might be a local church or church around. You're like, hey, I see this guy popping up on my feet a lot more.
Speaker 3:Really, like their takes. They have great cameras and great angles and they're all mic'd up and we're seeing a lot of them. Hey, can you come over to my county, my church, and do this thing? And then you hit them with well, this is my price. And then they're like well, you're supposed to be doing it for Jesus, it's supposed to be. And it's like well, you found me based on the business that I was doing is how you found me. But now that I'm giving you my found price, now I'm not doing it for Jesus anymore. But we both agree that we both want to get paid Like yes, it's all for the worship of God and worship of the kingdom. But I don't understand why people can't make money for their gifts.
Speaker 3:Now to your point, rj, there is a line when you start getting flashy and then your gift, the Bible says the Holy Spirit says I will give you the gifts, and it also says your gifts will make room. But that make room is not you going out and being flashy and telling people well, I got a gift, I got an anointing, you can give me this price. It's like, of course there needs to be a biblical business maturity on how to grow these things, because it is a thin line between going from wow, god is really opening these opportunities to. I need to keep these opportunities opening because I'm here now. I need to can all I get and get all that I can. But I think it's a little unfair. I think it's very easy to throw stones at these leaders and these people that just pop up a little more in our feeds and then try to guess their intent and motives. I think is a miss that the body does sometimes.
Speaker 2:Very mature conversation. I mean I agree with everything you guys said. I think you mentioned Isaiah, that there's an agreement here. And just to biblically give the reason for scriptural, what I consider the scriptural reason for support of people in ministry is one in the Old Testament, the Levitical tribe, the tribe of Levi, was not given an inheritance with the land. So when God broke up the promised land, every tribe had a certain spot of land. The tribe of Levi was not given a spot of land. So when God broke up the promised land, every tribe had a certain spot of land. The tribe of Levi was not given a spot of land. They were to be supported by the other 11 tribes. Those tribes were to support the tribe of Levi so they wouldn't have land to pass down to their kids, they wouldn't have an inheritance to pass down. They were to be supported and that's the way God, through Moses, set up that structure for the nation at that time.
Speaker 2:And then in the New Testament, you see in 1 Corinthians, chapter 9, when Paul is having to defend his apostleship and he answers he didn't say specifically what he's defending, but a lot of what he's defending. He says are we not allowed to eat or drink, are we not allowed to enjoy life? And that was the question that he asked. So what exactly the accusations were, we can speculate a little bit. But he goes on to say, quoting from the Old Testament. He quotes the Old Testament to say you shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain. Is it oxen God is concerned about? How does he say it all together, for your sake?
Speaker 2:Then he goes on to say and give a description to he said if I am feeding you spiritually, it's a natural desire, it's a natural response to reap from you carnal. He said, if I'm Paul, speaking as a defense of his apostleship, he said if I'm sowing unto you spiritually, speaking to the church, I am pouring into you spiritual. You guys have already declared that. You know the value of that. If I'm sowing it to you spiritually, it's a natural process to receive a harvest, not always of just spiritual things but of natural things, because that's value that we place back on spiritual things.
Speaker 2:And so I agree that biblically 1 Corinthians 9, and how God established the nation in the Old Testament through Moses and then through Joshua, I think, is to let us know that there is a physical reaping of those who carry spiritual things, and so I have no problem at all with pastors and worship leaders, and as much as the church is able to, in a godly, wise way, support those who are bearing and sowing in spiritual things and I completely agree with you guys the wisdom and the optics of doing that must be considered. Think of the optics if the pastor is a millionaire and everybody in his congregation is below the poverty level. That's a problem. Things are out of balance here. The people are not being bettered, it's just the pastor.
Speaker 4:That's an issue, and I think the other side, the opposite will be an issue as well.
Speaker 2:I would consider the opposite an issue, that if the people in the congregation are wealthy and then the pastor is at poverty level, I think that's a discrepancy there and I think there's a lack of maturity and wisdom. I think there should be balance there, there should be relatability and approachability, much like God told the other tribes says make sure that Levi is just as blessed as you are when you receive. Increase with your crops. When you receive, be a blessing to that tribe. And that tribe's responsibility was to maintain the tabernacle and then the temple. They had the Levitical responsibility of offering sacrifices and when the harvest were blessed from the other tribes, from Judah, from Benjamin, when their tribes were blessed, they were able to pour back into the tribe of Levi. So I think there's balance there. And then to the last point, I think there is exactly what you guys said. Exactly what you guys said there are responsibilities to present in a way that does not come across as over-the-top flashy from those who are carrying the Word of God.
Speaker 2:I remember one time I wore graphic tee to preach in I think it was from Express, and I didn't know what the graphic. It was just a graphic. It didn't read any, it didn't say anything and I wore it under a suit. It was a black suit and a black shirt with like a gold graphic and somebody told me after the service they were like I spent the whole time trying to understand what your shirt meant, what it stood for, and it wasn't a bad thing. He just told me he said I spent the and it was an elder. He said I spent and it wasn't a bad thing. He just told me he said I spent the and it was, it was an elder. He said I spent the whole time trying to figure out what your service was. That was like a click in me, if you.
Speaker 2:Okay, I gotta my the being careful about what I wear because it can be easily distracting to those who are, who are receiving, and then they're more concerned with good, bad or indifferent. They're more concerned with what I have on than what I'm trying to say, and so never letting what we have on or what we're representing draw more attention than the message and the content of what we're trying to communicate, I think should be in the back of our minds as we carry, and I've failed at that a lot. I think in youthfulness I enjoy certain things. I think in youthfulness. I enjoy certain things, clothes-wise and all those things. I think I've missed it in places before, but I think the further I go along probably the older I get to the more just understanding. Don't let your outward appearance be a distraction from the content of what you're trying to communicate.
Speaker 4:Going back to what we were talking about earlier, our conversation.
Speaker 2:I shouldn't have worn my jeans up that high, no, but you're exactly right. I mean even going back to the way Peter instructs and I'm gonna get in trouble for this the way Peter instructs, the way that women in general are to dress, there's biblical encouragement. Again, we don't take it as dogma or legalism, but there's biblical encouragement to don't let your outward appearance be the thing that when people leave a conversation. That's what they're talking about. Let them be drawn to the calmness and quietness of your spirit. Let them be drawn to the joy and the peace that you operate in, rather than trying to impress somebody with outward flashy and speaking for them like you know, flashy jewels and things of that nature. That draws people's attention to that and that's what they know about it. I think there's wisdom and maturity in the way that we handle those things.
Speaker 4:New mandates coming for Impact Church.
Speaker 2:I know it sounds so antiquated and old-fashioned. I know it does, and I have to be careful because people will treat it as even you, treat it as law and legalism, and that's not the heart. The heart is just. How do we best? There's a lot of things that we have freedom to do that we are not always expedient and necessary for us to do.
Speaker 3:I think another angle for this conversation for me is that I am in the marketplace, I'm a marketer. That is my day job, that is what I do all the time. It is my job to take the raw materials that are there, build a pathway to get more sales, more eyes. I'm doing social media, I'm shooting video. I'm doing social media, I'm shooting video, I'm doing all this kind of stuff. Now sometimes I take that what I believe, that perception to know when things need to go out, how they need to be packaged, how they need to be pushed, what audiences are they going to reach? What is our core audience? Who are we talking to? How can we expand our reach? All that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3:Sometimes, when I bring that into more Christian spaces, I get a little ridiculed because it starts for people. What I've been told is that it starts to complicate the gospel a little bit, because now it feels like you're trying to sell the gospel or it feels like you're trying to bring more views and more eyes and stuff like that, and sometimes the leader doesn't necessarily doesn't know how to interact with while I'm being filmed more now, or we're we're, we're one. We mean we need more equipment to do X to get out there more. I don't know. I guess a little bit of a battle there. So I feel in some regard I don't remember everything the Maverick City guy said, but when he's going into it with a business marketplace mindset to say this is how you run a business to something that is God anointed and God ordained Christian, I feel like the general audience, the people, look at that and they ridicule it.
Speaker 3:But it's like not everybody can be pastor, not everybody can be teacher, not everybody can be apostle. Not everybody can be teacher, not everybody can be apostle, not everybody can be prophet. There are some people that just make the infrastructure that houses the Ark of the Covenant. There are some people that need to know how much building materials do we need and where does it come from and where do we get the cedar and how do we negotiate all this kind of stuff to help build a tabernacle. And I feel like when you have somebody whose main gift is that and it doesn't sound like your pastoral, christian-y stuff, it doesn't sound that way people like me in the Christian spaces I feel the ridicule of like you're doing too much you need. Did you pray about that before you made that ad switch and it's like this is the job. This is how we do what we do.
Speaker 2:When David brought in worship leaders, he brought in singers and musicians. The scripture declares that he brought in skilled musicians, that there was a skill, and even about David there were comments, as he is you know the anointing on his life, but he played skillfully before the Lord.
Speaker 2:I think that's, and obviously I don't know a lot about the branding world of what you're dealing with, but I want to marry those two together. It's a both and, as you described well, rather than an either or. So a lot of times the church world, from my experience, is either we are spontaneous or we're organized. We're either spirit-led or we're structured, and I think, or to use that word, we're either sloppy with the way that we do things or we're over the top, and I think those things should be married together. When the motivation is correct, it is, it's heartfelt, spirit led, spontaneous, but it's excellent and and it has it's polished and it's the best that we have to offer in that regard. And I don't think those that's not a dichotomy those things, those things shouldn't be at odds with one another. Those things are married together. I think the structure prepares opportunity for the spontaneity.
Speaker 2:Do things that you weren't able to do before, the same thing with your world, with marketing and technology and innovation, like there's ability there now to reach people that we didn't have the capacity to do before, and that's God-given. And so I would say that it's not so much what you do, but why you do what you do. What is the motivation for it? If the heart is to amplify the message of Christ, if it's to get it in as many years as possible, then use every bit of your skill. My encouragement would be use every bit of your skill, your innovation, your excellence, all of that to use that for the purpose of advancing the kingdom. And I think that's why the heart of a matter matters so much more than the product of what is being done. What is the motivation behind doing it?
Speaker 3:Because the Mormons, they got it on lock. Did y'all know? Y'all might not know this, but did y'all know that Mormons, they have a coalition within their denomination to go and find influencers that speak to Mormon family ideals, that can then be influenced on Instagram and TikTok, and they pay them to show these ideals, but not overtly, so then they can get the message of what a Mormon life looks like. But they're doing it. That's just marketing. That's strategic marketing. You go and look at the Muslim world. They go and they recruit streamers, people who stream for hours on end on a time, and they go into their live streams. They donate, they begin to recruit, they then get them involved and then they bring all of their. They call them dawah guys or what we call them apologists. They bring their Muslim apologists into the live stream and now they're speaking to masses and changing young minds and doing all sorts. It's strategic.
Speaker 3:The Bible says that the serpent is strategic and he's cunning. But then in the Christian world we're just like, well, we'll just talk and then we'll just see where it goes from there and like, for me as the marketer, it's so frustrating. Like, no, we can do more for the advancement in the kingdom. Like when I read go into the world and preach the gospel to every creature. That the way that translates for me is marketing. I'm supposed to come alongside somebody in someone's ministry and be like, hey, I know how we can do that now in the modern era. Moses did it orally, paul went from town to town writing letters and I feel like, hey, there's a way to do it now with this new way of technology to get the message out there. And it's just like I see all these denominations doing it and then sometimes not all the times, but I sometimes see the church Big C failing in that regard. I'm like bro, it's right there in front of us to capture.
Speaker 1:It amazes me how everybody wants church to do everything for free, but they don't ever want to do anything free. For the church to do everything for free, but they don't ever want to do anything free for the church.
Speaker 1:Like how do you expect them to function and to get things done if you don't have the funds to do it? Like, I don't think I know. It kind of gets the water gets muddy sometimes when you have people that actually love money versus you have people that just have money. When you were talking about the pastor being a millionaire, I was thinking about Warren Buffett, because you were talking about talents and skills that get paid for outside the church, because there are a lot of pastors that write books, they're investing in TV, they have so many other things going for them that makes them wealthy and they may not even be taken from the church. We just assume, because they're over a church, that that's where all their funds come from. Like, what is his name that wrote the Purpose Driven Life?
Speaker 2:Rick Warren Rick.
Speaker 1:Warren. When he wrote that book, he said that it sold so many copies it made him a millionaire. He stopped taking money from the church. He had not taken money from the church for years that he was the pastor of because he made so much money from his book. Now, he didn't dress like he was a millionaire, but at the same time he was, though and it's a lot of pastors, I think some of them have outside.
Speaker 1:I do agree with you, like when you get up there and I'm somebody that actually wears jewelry and has some of the more name brand things and please forgive me, because if you're offended by my Jordans, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:It's not for you, it's for me.
Speaker 1:It's a childhood thing and somebody I used to love, like the shoe, but I don't think when the pastor gets up there, I should lose my sight, because the light hit their jury.
Speaker 1:There's certain things, like if your congregation is suffering, I think it looks like it's bad stewardship of money, because you have all this money and you'd rather spend a hundred thousand dollars on a chain, or sixty thousand on your outfit, or twelve thousand on this and that just to say you have it, but then have your congregation is starving like you could have found a way or a better way to invest in them, like, okay, let's do some startup companies or something like that, and I again I've never been there to that level to be able to do that stuff, so I can't tell them what to do with their. But I do think the image of it comes off very poorly, even if they did make the money from something else when you become flashy. But it just always amazes me how they're so judgmental of the things people do in the church but yet they're never willing to assist the church in those things they want to be judgmental about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. And you know some Christians look like John the Baptist. You know some Christians have that Paul. You know, like Paul, walk of life where I'm like, hey, I'm going from house to house, I'm going places, god really just has me like I don't know how I'm going to eat tonight. God has me. Other Christians are kings. David, he had what he had. Abraham, I don't think y'all understand If you were to convert Abraham's earnings to today. That man was rich. This is going to be a little sacrilegious, pastor. So if you got to call me afterwards.
Speaker 3:But were Isaac and Jacob nepo babies? Their daddy was rich, the blessings of abraham was good and if all right, I'm gonna edit that out the pot. But I'm just saying like there's nepo baby. Oh, I lost you guys on nepo babies. That's where I lost.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm talking about, right all right, y'all, we didn't take now what you said now, oh, that's what they that's.
Speaker 2:Nepo baby is an informal, often critical term for a person who succeeds in a field, particularly entertainment, and is believed to be due to their famous parents' influence.
Speaker 3:So, in a sense, the way I'm using it is my parents were rich. Oh, nepotism, nepotism, gotcha and their riches trickled down. So I didn't have the same struggles as Abraham had, because I'm Jacob, so I'm benefiting from my father's blessings and what he has sacrificed, and now I'm here. Then you get down further and further in generations and you're like oh, that's old money, that's old family money, and I believe that some Christians have that calling on their life, and it's not that of a John the Baptist or a Paul, but it doesn't make them any less heavenly, any less anointed, any less Christian. Did I tie it back? I feel like I lost it. No, I completely agree.
Speaker 2:I mean, I talk about it quite frequently. When Paul told Timothy, he said teach those who are rich how to be rich. Meaning that I think there's a lot of things included in that statement, meaning that not everybody is rich, but there are some people who are rich and it's not a sin, chris, you said that exceptionally well, that it's not a sin to have money. It's not a sin to have possessions. It becomes detrimental and sinful when those possessions have us and we're controlled by those. And Scripture does not say that money is the root of all evil. It's the love of money that is the root of all evil. So when that begins to possess our lives and dictate and that becomes the ladder that we try to climb, then we can open up, as Scripture gives so much wisdom to.
Speaker 2:The number one topic that Jesus talked about is money as the first thing, most important. Uh, uh, number wise, amount wise, quantity wise. The thing that he talked about more than anything was money, um, and it doesn't make. It doesn't make it bad, it doesn't make it evil? Uh, it's. It's how you handle it and how you do. Do you look at it from a temporal perspective or an eternal perspective? Do you look at it from a temporal?
Speaker 4:perspective or an eternal perspective? Yeah, I was thinking going back to the guy, um, the maverick city guy. So like he come in after they were already you know they're already making really good music, you know there's something good happening, and then he jumps in and just kind of, you know, locks in the business end they're able to. I mean, honestly, the biggest thing I'd ever seen, since I mean Hillsong made a big wave maybe 10, 15 years ago.
Speaker 3:The math was different.
Speaker 4:Whoever sung Lord, I Lift your Name on High you know whoever? Like those people but like the maverick city, like I don't know, five years maybe of I I didn't hardly listen to nothing else myself, you know, like I mean they to, to put it, and I think so. I think what you're saying is is important. I mean you throw a, a guy in because, like when I first heard the clip, I will say, like just the way he talks threw me off, like that's not, but he's not uh, you know, that's not what he, what he's there for.
Speaker 4:I thought about, like some of the people, pastor Jason, that you've you've had from the, you know some, from the the beginning to the till now, there's always been somebody on the leadership team that that's there. And they're not there to necessarily be the faith part. They're not there to necessarily be the uh, the gospel slinger. They're there to make sure you don't do nothing dumb, or you don't do nothing you don't go to jail for tax evasion.
Speaker 4:Yeah, there's some people you're not gonna put a mic in front of them and and let them speak on a sunday, but you probably want to take into consideration what they're offering, because they see life from a different, different perspective. The, the pastor and the engineer or the you know whatever like they're going to look at. Should we do that, go forward, doing this or that? And the marketer? You bring the marketer and the engineer and the finance guy and the pastor all in the same room. They're going to sound differently. So the fact that he doesn't sound like a worship leader or a pastor, it's probably like that's not. That wasn't his role. His role was to lock in the business side and let's see how far we can take this.
Speaker 4:So same thing with the church. You bring in, you got the pastor and his vision. Then you got the marketer and you got the elders and you got this and this and that and you got people saying, hey, I don't know if that's wise. And you got people elders, and you got this and this and that and you got people saying, hey, I don't know if that's wise. And you got people saying, hey, I'm gonna want to believe god. And you say, hey, well, how can we? How can we bring all these things together to make us make good, smart, wise decisions as stewards with what god gave us to let the most people hear the gospel that can. Yeah, I'll say it, man.
Speaker 1:Amen. So I got another thought that just hit me With people and money in the church. If people feel like the more money a pastor or somebody has, the further away they are from God, then what does that say about their life? Because if you feel you can't have money and have God, then why is it you have money and you're showing up in the church trying to find God. Like, are you going to give up everything that you? You know what I'm saying. Like the thought process behind certain things.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it makes me wonder what is the one which one holds higher rank, because if you feel you can separate it back to I think it was some pods before, so go back and listen to the other pods, because I don't know which one, so listen to all of them. But I believe we're talking about the separation of your church life versus your marketplace or your outside the church life. And most people can turn a switch off and, oh, I'm on Sunday, I'm about God, but then the rest of the week is everything but God. Sunday I'm about God, but then the rest of the week it's everything but God, and then they cut it back on at certain times when they need them, versus it being a 24-7,. Your life never separates. So now it's I have a job.
Speaker 1:I think most people go into it.
Speaker 1:I have a job. That's my life, that's my support system, that's my life, that's what everything is built off of, the money I make. And then I have a little bit of God in my life as a part of, but he's not the center of your job and your finances is the center of, because you feel that dictates everything you can do in life, versus God being the center of your life and the job being a part of your life. So they don't have identity in God, they have identity in I am a lawyer, I am a doctor, I am this, I am that lawyer, I am a doctor, I am this, I am that, instead of saying no, this is just what I do, but I am who God created me to be.
Speaker 1:Because I think, up until coming to this church, church and me deciding where I was going to work had no relationship. It was always going to be wherever the job goes I could care less about. I'll find a new church and, to be honest, yes, god is in a lot of churches, but sometimes that don't mean you supposed to be.
Speaker 1:There are ties to certain churches and things I think that are linked to your growth and your spiritual maturity. Like I know, one time I was looking for a job back in covet and I was like, uh, yeah, jessica, I ain't seen nothing, so I'm about to start looking in charlotte and atlanta. And then I started looking. I was like man, but I don't feel like I'm supposed to leave impact, like it's something about there, and I don't think it was no classes done at this time. Uh, I mean, any pat leadership institute wasn't done at this time. I didn't have title, a title of elder. I wasn't running you for nothing, we were just coming.
Speaker 1:But I was like I think it feels premature, like I don't know if we'll be there forever, but I just feel like now, even with what we're going through, I just don't think we're supposed to be gone. And looking back, I feel like it's one of the best decisions that we could have made and I mean I know it looked, but even still, there's so much growth, there's so much revelation that has come from being in this house and I think some people don't see the value in that and so they're so focused on everything but the church. It's just like that's just something I can get anywhere and it's not. It's not the same, and if I'm out of line for that comment, please correct me.
Speaker 2:I think it's powerful the way you said, that God sets you in a house. He sets you as a place where you can find family and be fed and all those things. I think it's wise for a especially if the Lord is specific about where he's placed that family at that point, to make their decision about everything else where they're, how their spiritual life is and and I say it quite frequently that the spiritual health of an individual is sometimes the last thing that we concern ourselves with and it is the most important part and where you're being fed and where your family is finding community and surrounded by. I don't think those are my dad used to say this that probably the second most important decision you'll make in your life. I mean obviously receiving Christ but then choosing who you're going to marry. And then number two is where are you going to raise your kids? Where are you going to be fed spiritually? Those are—and we live in a consumer generation where it's kind of peace is here. But I think the Holy Spirit cares about where he places you and where he puts you, and it's wise of you to make that a priority where you feel led to be, for as long as God has you there, that everything else flows around that Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and these things shall be added unto you. That's wisdom on your part, and if the Lord has placed you in a place, value that thing. Just talking to the people that are listening value it, make decisions around it, put your family in it, serve it, be a part of it and give yourself fully to it, not just on the outside, looking in, but be a part of it. Not just consuming but giving to it, to being reciprocal.
Speaker 2:Going back to even like what you were talking about, about, you know there's a lot of, and I have a strong burden for this and I want to say I'm glad I have this opportunity to maybe say it a little clearer than I have in the past. I agree that pastors and leaders and churches have the responsibility to be evaluated, for people to assess and to critique and to give feedback. All that is healthy and good. But I also think we are in a generation where critiquing something is easier than being a part of something, and that's kind of the cynical, the skeptical, the cynicism that comes along with throwing darts at something that you're not a part of, and I think that's, you know, some of it's funny for me to I'm being very personal now some of it's funny to look on social media and see people tearing down. You know the shoes that somebody has on or the watch that somebody has on, or you know the plane that somebody is driving and I have my own feelings about that stuff.
Speaker 2:But then there's a part of it that is very sad to me, because the majority of people who are doing that have no clue what the weight of what those people are carrying and what the church is experiencing and going through, and they just become easy targets. For am I defending them over? Am I overgeneralizing and defending all of them? Completely not.
Speaker 2:But I also don't want us as a body to become sothe verbiage and language that we use are from people who know nothing about us as a family, and I mean that around the church, like, let our language be restorative, let our language be brother-and-sister language, rather than the critiquing language of throwing rocks at a glass house that we don't feel like we're a part of, and I think I just think that's a healthy way to look at the humility that takes to. So if, if your role is to fix the body, then be a part of the body, and I think there are some people that have that role. Be a part of the body and being a part of the body you'll grant, you'll gain credibility that your voice actually means something. But if, if, I don't know who you are, if we don't know who you are, it's very challenging for us to respect your fixing of us when you're not a part of the family as a whole very well said.
Speaker 4:Yeah, there was a time, uh, a few years back, probably like five years ago or something, where I seen like I was watching a bunch of youtube and I see could see kind of the the trend, and I had considered, because you know, I was like thinking about making content at the time and I was like you know what, that would be real easy to just hop on, hop on the tube and watch a clip of somebody saying something I disagree with and just set it on fire, you know, and I I was like man that would, because everybody that was making have reaction channels going crazy, going crazy, yep, and I was like it wasn't, it wasn't so many at that time that it was like I was. You know, I was like kind of jump in at the ground floor, you know, and be making money ragging on people. And then I mean the, the thought didn't last too long before it was like, oh, the Holy spirit's, like what?
Speaker 2:were you thinking about doing?
Speaker 4:again, you know, because it's like a lot of those people that people would call out. I remember I began to think about, like even some of the most popular people people talk about, the Joel Osteens, the TD Jakes, the Coreflo dollars, the um stephen ferdick stephen ferdicks, I think about like before I ever had a, a church that I went to. I listened to those people because I didn't have, I didn't have nothing else to to listen to. I remember I had big anger issues as a teenager, big anger issues. I couldn't control it and somebody bought become a better you and you.
Speaker 4:We can argue about the theology of whatever, but but the joel osteen, I would listen to those every single night going to bed, just trying trying to be happier and less angry, and whether or not it quote delivered me from being angry, but it helped. It helped at those times where I flip on td jakes and listen to him and I mean I'm I'm thankful for for those times, the times that when I would be listening to maybe you know, everybody had a stereo in the room. You know, back in the day, stereo.
Speaker 3:What's that. Radio.
Speaker 4:Radio Music player, some sort of music player with some speakers we liked speakers back in the day. So you know you have your little thing that plays your five-disc CD changer, and you know. Then you have the radio, and so you know I'd throw a little R&B station at 97.1 QMG or something like that you know on the radio, but then when the Kirk Franklin song would come on, you know what I mean it would do someone ask the question.
Speaker 1:Hey, you know what I mean it would do.
Speaker 4:When someone asked the question, I'd be like hey, wait, wait, I'm asking questions you know, because I was thinking, even based on the conversations that we had a week or two ago, on those people that are kind of in the middle of like, are they too mainstream or are they not? And I'm thankful for the people that I was able to listen to that were out there, because back then every voice wasn't mark it. Just that's the way the market was. You got a few voices that you're able to listen to and that that's just all this available. But I'm so thankful that those voices were available. I didn't have a whole lot to grasp from, but if I didn't have Joel Osteen and TD Jakes and some of these other people to listen to, I don't know where I would have been. If Kurt Franklin never came on the radio, I don't know if my soul would have been as receptive to hear and receive later on what I did. So I'm thankful for any voice.
Speaker 4:Paul said if they preach Christ, praise God, and that's kind of. You know, without you have intentions of wanting to be critical. Sometimes those thoughts will come up because you know the way the Lord's shaping you. You want to put that, you have the tendency to want to put that on somebody else, and I'm trying to earn, learn things, things that maybe I heard from Joel Osteen that now maybe I don't agree with. That doesn't mean that I got to turn around and bash everything that he stands for. So it's like this kind of thing where I don't want to let my heart start being critical of somebody. That one time when I was ready to give up or didn't see any hope, and Joel Osteen gave me hope, when I didn't have any idea of what it was like to hear somebody preach jesus, and I heard td jakes do it in a way that spoke to me on a deep level, that that I've I've never forgot and I praise god for that. I don't know if that was off topic or not.
Speaker 1:No, I was spot on because I was sitting here thinking about some of the people. I was like I remember listening to them and I think that's where trusting the Holy Spirit comes into play and you allowing God to lead you and you're looking for God and not trusting in the man. Yeah, because I think all those people have been in times in my life what I needed to get me through that moment and then, like you, advance on. But I don't talk about them because I'm not listening to them anymore I just advanced on.
Speaker 1:It's something else that I'm getting from somewhere else now. We were watching a documentary on katrina and everything that happened, and I'm even thinking about these people at that manner. And there was people that were there to take care of people when they were brought in the house and treated them for what they had. But then there was people that were there to take care of people when they were brought in the house and treated them for what they had. But then there was people that was out there by any means necessary, getting to the people that were out there stranded and needed help. And a lot of those people, I think, are the people getting out there to get them and bring them to the house.
Speaker 1:Their job wasn't to really take care of them. They did as much as they could, but their job was to get them to the people that was in the safe haven that could get them out of that place and transport them somewhere else. All they were doing was trying to get them out the water. That means, if it was by boat, by plane, whatever we know how to do, we're going to use that to get you and then get you to the people that can actually help you save, you operate whatever that was needed at the time and give you the food that you needed at the time, and I think with the Kirk Franklin because I didn't listen to any worship slow music when I first started- Like if it wasn't for Kirk boy?
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 1:But it reeled me in, it started the process. Joel Osteen, at that level, was easily to digest and understand and although he may not be perfect or sound or whatever people judge, but at the time he still piqued my curiosity. There's something else out here. There's something that, even though it may not be what I'm used to, it's still good in it, and he pointed out a lot of good in Christ. And then somebody else may come along and point out well, you can't keep living like that. And somebody else, and it just kept adding on and adding on and I just kept going from glory to glory.
Speaker 1:I felt like, uh, faith to faith, growing, rising, education, rising, studying, rising, until I got to a point now it's like okay, you got that part. Now let's really do some deep diving and some surgery on you. Now that you've gotten the bases out, let's go to another level. Like anything else we do in life, you have basics you start out with probably you know your numbers. Then you learn how to add and subtract your numbers. Now you go to multiplication, division. Now you're in pindos and everything else and you know we're going way beyond that and so, um, that's what I feel like a lot of those people are and even in your sermon this past sunday about you're like, don't talk about the anointing, like, be careful, because God can use any of them. It may not be in a manner you thought they should have been used or to the level you felt they should be used. Well, I'm here now and they're not doing it for me, that's cool, but they got you there.
Speaker 3:It sounds like in the verse that says when the foot looks at the eye and says I don't need you. I think, for the first time.
Speaker 2:Right now, I don't think I've ever pictured that as pastoral styles.
Speaker 3:Some pastoral styles it might be a little hand, or a pastoral style might be an ear, but it's still a part of the same body. So it looks weird for me to be like, well, name pastor, name church, we don't need you. And it's like, well, no, that might just be their style for the part that they're providing to the body, as long as they don't go like we don't know. Jesus is God. You know as long as they don't break the fundamentals. There's a heretic line.
Speaker 4:There's a heretic line there, but as long as they don't.
Speaker 3:It's just a different style. I remember when I first, before I found Impact Church, I was going to all these churches and looking back on it now, I was definitely judging churches by style and not spirit, and so it made me a very critical person. And to your point, pastor, when you were talking about being critical of the community versus being in the community, and corrective are two different types of critiques and corrections, and unless you are actually within the body and you see, oh, that was the thing that was holding them back, I think I can provide a little bit here. I think God is calling me here. Same thing with what you were saying, like how you felt, like you needed to stay here. Same thing happened to me Originally. If y'all were talking to me, like a year ago, I was saying I was finna, move to Atlanta. That's all I was saying.
Speaker 2:I remember you saying you sat down and had a meeting with me. We leaving.
Speaker 3:Yes, just about life. We were just talking about life and I was like, yeah, I'm definitely going to Atlanta, I'm definitely going there. Couldn't I find out? Isaiah did not go to Atlanta. Much more life here than I would have had building it in Atlanta. And because of the community that I have here. And now that I'm involved here, I'm like, okay, I think I know how I want to be responsible. I think I want to know what I want to pick up and how I want to contribute to the body that's here.
Speaker 2:So can I give a practical as a pastor? This is something and again, I completely agree with feedback I don't want to have yes men, I don't expect the church not to add negative responses. That's not my heart at all. But when a meeting starts and the first part of the conversation it starts with y'all need to do this, in my mind sometimes I completely shut the meeting down, the meeting's over it's done. Or in my mind I I completely shut the meeting down, the meeting's over it's done, or in my mind I completely shut it off when the conversation starts with y'all need to do this, instead of we need to do this.
Speaker 2:There's a difference, because if it's y'all, then perspective is you're outside and you're trying to fix us, even if you're a member of the body, and the thought is you need to, or y'all need to fix this. I think you know, even going back to Isaiah, what you were talking about before. I think some of the burdens that you have for media and innovation and technology and marketing. God shows you things when you're a part of something that needs to be addressed and he doesn't just show you those things and not something that needs to be addressed. And he doesn't just show you those things and not give you solutions for those things. And so when a meeting starts with y'all need to do this and the meeting is I'm putting this on your plate to fix, and you bring no solutions, no commitment to assist, no, saying this is something that I think we could do to make that better. If it's a y'all and not a we, in my mind it's not healthy feedback. Now, it's not in a healthy place because it's. You look at us as if we're not a part of you, and I think with my family, there's certain things that if you're not a part of the family, then you don't understand the dynamics of some of the decisions that are being made, the choices that are being made, and there's some things that are made with pace in mind and patience in mind, all of those things. And so I would encourage those that if you're offering feedback this could be to your spouse, this could be to your boss, this could be to your boss, this could be to your church If you sit down and say y'all need to do that, it's automatically not going to be a healthy conversation.
Speaker 2:If you love it enough and you're a part of it, then, of course, offer feedback, but put it in language and think along with the mindset how can we see this problem or this void met and this problem solved, rather than this is a problem for you to fix? The church is not a restaurant that you go to that you leave a customer review on. It's a family that you're a part of, that you see growth and expansion from, and let's do it together. God gave Moses the burden. He hated certain things. Why? Because God was going to use him to heal certain things. Probably the part in you that you see a void is probably the part that God has wired you to fix and to help be a remedy for. So maybe God lets you see it from that perspective, because he's going to use you to help better. Amen.
Speaker 4:So before you hit us with the well, my church did it this way Roll the sleeves up, move some chairs, get sweaty with some people you don't know. I tell you, your perspective about people will change with two things Serving with them and praying for them. Come on, bro, that was tough.
Speaker 2:So good man.
Speaker 4:You think about people in a whole different way. When we're working together to accomplish a goal or to get something to start, and when you put them in your prayers, you think of people a lot differently.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so good man I'm just laughing at the fact that it's it's like well, my church used to, or my old church, but why is it your old church? Like you know, I mean no disrespect, but if it was so great, go back. Like I mean it's just like an ex. Like don't come in here telling me, well, my ex used to go get him back, like, why is he an ex? Like it's a reason you moved on. So stop trying to make this that. I'm sorry. I must be quiet now.
Speaker 3:No, hit him with it, god at least not being a Pharisee. I know we were talking about it earlier. No, I know we were talking about it earlier about Sam Ballant and Tobiah, but they weren't serving, yeah, they weren't helping build the wall. They was critiquing and yapping from the outside.
Speaker 3:Not us, not us of course, but you look like the people that drowned in the flood because you didn't want to be a part of it. Sorry, that was too heavy, but I'm not sorry, actually. Don't be a Pharisee. Don't be those weird people that were following Paul around and pretending like he was a part of it but then, when stuff started happening, you run away. You don't want to be a part of it, no more. Stop being outside the garden talking about how y'all need to till the fields.
Speaker 2:get in here, roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty, yeah man, I love y'all, brothers, y'all know, like never mind, I don't even say that like the key appeal skit where where one of them says the real dignified thing and then the other one comes in and says what?
Speaker 3:he really means. Y'all were saying what I really wanted to say. The translator yes, I'm going to translate, golly.
Speaker 4:Anyway, we should end the podcast and just so nobody at Impact Church Greensboro thinks we're singling them out Awesome church. I've never been a part of a body with so many the ratio of people who roll up their sleeves and serve, and I'm inspired by the people that go to this church, the amount of people that you see that just praying for people without being asked to, not on the prayer team or nothing. Serving people, I mean just the people that I mean it's a beautiful thing, which I think is why you got to jump in, like you just got to jump in with no life jacket.
Speaker 2:So good man.
Speaker 3:Life.
Speaker 4:Liberty and the pursuit of God.
Speaker 3:Okay, we should end the pot. We're done. Thank y'all for listening to this week's episode. We'll see y'all next time. My dream job would be to work for a church.
Speaker 4:Really.
Speaker 3:Absolutely Like to be their like lead creative director.
Speaker 4:You're just throwing it out there.
Speaker 3:My dream job. But no, I would seriously love that. That would be amazing. We'll work on it.