Do Pastors Need A Degree To Preach, New Pandemic, Mother's Day

Authority is easy to claim and hard to prove, especially online and sometimes even in the church. We start with real-life catchup (playoffs takes, wild “new pandemic” rumors, Mother’s Day stories, and a surprisingly deep pickleball arc), then pivot into a question that matters for every Christian trying to find a healthy church: what actually qualifies someone to lead God’s people?

A viral debate about Dr. Cheyenne Bryant’s credentials opens the door to our bigger conversation about pastoral credentials, seminary, and whether a degree should be required for ministry. We talk candidly about how formal education can help with theology, history, and research, but also how it can’t manufacture fruit, spiritual maturity, or a genuine relationship with Jesus. The thread that keeps coming up is accountability: covering, mentorship, governance, and the New Testament pattern of being recognized and sent by the body, not self-appointed.

From there we tackle prophecy, the office of prophet versus prophetic moments, and why “God told me” language should be handled with reverence and humility. We explore testing words, making room for growth with correction, and why the five-fold ministry (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher) protects the church from imbalance. We also challenge celebrity church culture and the pressure to get everything from one voice, when God designed the church to function as a body with many gifts working together.

If you care about church leadership, spiritual authority, sound doctrine, and Spirit-led community, this one will stretch you. Subscribe, share with a friend, and leave a review, then tell us what you think in the comments or fan mail.

Transcript

Welcome And New YouTube Push

SPEAKER_05 0:00

This is the Deeper Roots Podcast. We're four hosts talking about a range of topics from life to godliness. I got Chris, RJ, Pastor Jason, and myself, Zay. And this is now officially the second episode to be videoed and placed on YouTube. Yeah. Man, we're coming up in the world, Rose. Shout out to everybody watching us on YouTube. We look just as pretty as we sound. And if you are listening and you didn't know, we are now on YouTube. You can go to Deeper Roots Podcast. Write in the comments. You can still send us an anonymous text if you click into the episode on Spotify or Apple Music, wherever you listen to your podcast, or drop a comment down below in the comment section on YouTube. We would love for you to be a part of the conversation.

Playoffs Talk And LeBron’s Next Move

SPEAKER_05 0:49

What's been going on in the world, guys? Where are we at in life? Not to talk about the playoffs at all. We can skip that topic. Why? No, let's go with that. Why are we skipping that topic? You know what? Might as well go ahead and get it out there. Father Time comes from us all. You know what I mean? It comes for everybody. Not for LeBron, though. LeBron has beaten Father Time many, many, many, many times. But these 20 and 30-year-olds are acting like they're the oldest ones on the court. I don't understand it. LeBron averaging 35 and 8 throughout the whole playoffs. Carrying this team on his back, and AR can't make a three.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

That's what that's what that's the narrative you come up with.

SPEAKER_05 1:43

It's sad, man. But we all knew they weren't they weren't getting past OKC. That was obvious. It won't go in.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

They could have got at least one.

SPEAKER_05 1:52

No. I would have counted it a championship win if they got one win. They won the championship. But that was OKT OKC is too stacked. And then when you have the refs in your backcourt, you feel me? It makes it it makes it even harder to beat the ref. You can't beat the refs. You know? Open up, open up uh investigation on these OKC refs.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

So you s you said they were clearly the better team, and the Lakers would have been lucky to win any, yet it's the refs' fault.

SPEAKER_05 2:26

Yes and. Yes and. Did you guys think Luca is like responsible for like 30-35 points a night? Some of those games they could have won if they had Luca up there, but they didn't. Now the question is, where does LeBron go from here? Where does he go?

SPEAKER_04 2:46

I actually, to be honest, I don't really root for LeBron. I don't hate LeBron though. But I hated to see him. I hope he doesn't retire. Because I would hate to see him go out like that. Um he's probably gonna need to switch teams. I don't know if he will. He might as well just go to Cleveland and do his retirement run. Finish it where he started and go ahead and announce he's retiring officially this year. But he did look good for his age. Look great. He's yeah, he's killing it. There's a lot of younger people, like you said, that's not averaging what he's averaging or doing what he's doing. Um I don't know if it's sympathy or what, but he has done a lot for the game of basketball. I will admit he didn't, he's not a game changer like Stephen Curry. But even he out of his own mouth announced that like Michael Jordan, Allah Iverson, and Stephen Curry, they changed the game. He just was a great player in the game.

SPEAKER_05 3:39

I gotta see that clip. I don't remember that clip. I I'll try to find out.

SPEAKER_04 3:42

I've seen it's on the Steph Curry thing where he was, they were interviewing him and they were talking about Steph, and he was just he identified Steph with them as people that changed the game completely. Uh so but either way, I would feel bad if he went out like this to have such a long career to end on a sweep as such, where he literally, no matter what he did, he was not gonna win. And it was definitely evident in every game that he was bettered by the other team.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

I'd love to see him go out like this. Oh, right. I think a 4-0 sweep, complete dominance from the uh opposing team. Um I think it's I think it's a beautiful way to end a historic career. The only thing better. No, that wouldn't even be better if he didn't make the playoffs. I wouldn't that wouldn't even be good. But losing four to zero, uh, a taking of the torch, if you will. Not a passing, a taking of the torch. Stop it. Um I I think it's beautiful. And I think about where what LeBron might do. For one, he is on a team that's willing to have his son on the team. Now, if he leaves, that's gotta be a dual package. There's no way there's no way he's leaving.

SPEAKER_05 5:08

Yes, he will.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

His son?

SPEAKER_05 5:10

Yes, it's a grown man. No, as a dad, I did, I got you in the league as a dad. You gotta go off on your own. You can't ride my cocktails to retire.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

He can go off on his own the next year or two when LeBron retires. No he is he his he said his last goal was to play with the son. Yes, he did it. You're not leaving your son. If he goes, I look, I think the only right choice if he leaves is to go to Cleveland. That's the only respectable move. Yeah. To leave and join OKC or something. He would never do that. Yeah, he would never join a super team. But um talk about changing the game.

SPEAKER_05 5:56

That's one thing he didn't do in this game full of super teams now since LeBron did it.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

But I I think that's the only the only move that would be right if he left would be to go to Cleveland. But I think he wouldn't go if Bronny don't go with him. No, I think he would leave his son. I think he would leave. You think he's that because he's that type of guy. That's crazy. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_05 6:20

No, he got his son in the league, but he doesn't need the the story's been written now. Like, it would be a bad business to be like, I'm not going if my son can't go. No, I think Cleveland is the responsible choice. But if you want to make headlines one more time, go to New York. Brody. Finishing your career in the garden with a great young team that can get it done. They got some good trade options, so Lakers could, you know, trade up or they can do another trade with another team. LeBron in New York. He wins a chip.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

No.

SPEAKER_05 6:58

No.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

He he he it the season ends with LeBron and Julius Randle in a fist fight. That's how that's very accurate.

SPEAKER_05 7:11

Man, too much.

Another Pandemic Or Another Distraction

SPEAKER_05 7:13

Uh speaking of fighting, y'all, there might be a new pandemic. We might have to fight for our lives one more time. Have y'all seen the stats on this pandemic? I've purposely not paid any attention. Brother. First of all, should have left them on that cruise ship. Should have. And sunk it. Sunk the ship. Sink it. Sink the whole thing. Leave them out.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

Nobody about it.

SPEAKER_05 7:38

No. No. It was an accident. Aliens. Blame it on the aliens. Yeah. That's what we could have done. Shoot. If I was president, I would have been like aliens are real. They got them. All the passengers don't know what happened.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Either that or just keep sending fuel and supply and supplies until it passes over. Right.

SPEAKER_05 7:56

You should have kept them up there. Supposedly, no, I'm getting all my health updates from TikTok, by the way. You should. You know, that's the most reliable source on the internet. Real journalism is on TikTok.

unknown 8:08

Of course.

SPEAKER_05 8:09

Supposedly, it takes eight weeks to see if it even shows up in your body and if you're a carrier. That's a long time.

SPEAKER_03 8:16

Very long time.

SPEAKER_05 8:17

That is a while. Also, it got a 40% hit rate. 40%. Steph Curry shoots 40%. Aliens. Y'all hear that? Something in the roof. Steph Curry shoots 40% from the line. He's the greatest shooter of all time. And the Hantavirus supposedly has a 40% hit rate. Buddy. Yeah. Did he blow another trumpet?

unknown 8:52

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05 8:53

Did Gabriel blow another trumpet? I don't know. Are we going into another pandemic, guys? What do y'all think?

SPEAKER_04 9:00

I can't speak on it because I'm like, RJ, I've been purposely not trying to figure out anything about it currently. Because we always in a pandemic about something.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

How many distractions are they going to send after the Epstein files? I mean, when is it going to stop? They haven't gave us enough time to just, I mean, you know, it's been thing after thing. Straight to war, to aliens, you know.

SPEAKER_05 9:27

Another, another pandemic.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:30

Yeah. Man, it's a lot. They got golden statues now. It's just a lot that's happening and going on. And we're not talking about the files.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Mm-hmm. That's that's what it's about.

SPEAKER_05 9:42

It is it is about that, man. A lot going on in the times. And happening. Speaking of time.

The AP Swatch Debate

SPEAKER_05 9:50

Come on. Come on. Come on.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

Yo, my segue is goaded.

SPEAKER_05 9:56

Speaking of time, Chris, you getting that new AP?

SPEAKER_06 10:00

No.

SPEAKER_05 10:01

Chris. Chris, is an AP, Chris? I tried to find it.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

I couldn't find it for sale yet. I guess it's not released yet.

SPEAKER_05 10:11

It's not officially released.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

300 bucks. For an AP? Come on.

SPEAKER_05 10:15

The whole gang.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Whole gang. We all getting APs.

SPEAKER_05 10:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Deeper roots green.

SPEAKER_05 10:24

Right. Chris, you tell me you're not you're not trying to get an AP with the bros.

unknown 10:31

No.

SPEAKER_04 10:32

I'm not about to get a swatch. Like I got an AP. It's not an AP. I think it's an AP, bro. I mean, I would get the watch just because it's the watch, but not for the the AP if I like the watch when I actually see it in person.

SPEAKER_05 10:45

Oh, so you want, you want, you want to spend 30 grand on a watch.

SPEAKER_04 10:50

No, I'm not doing that. I didn't say I would get a real AP. I'm just saying I would get a watch like that. That's not a real AP. I think it is a real combo. It's a royal oath. People are getting, people are getting the regular one trying to act like it's the real one. And that's what I'm saying. Like, not about here and do that. Chris said y'all are fake. He just called y'all broke.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

I didn't say broke.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Oh man.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

Imposters, but not broke.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Buying Jordans at the flea market. Come on, man.

SPEAKER_03 11:27

Jordan going the wrong way.

SPEAKER_05 11:29

I know I'm getting Chris for Christmas. Getting in that A-P Switch. One of them all pink ones. Facts. Yeah. Neon colors.

unknown 11:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:40

I'll make it look good. I ain't worried about it. I ain't gonna pair sneaks to magic.

SPEAKER_05 11:46

Something to magic. Man, a lot

Mother’s Day Wins And Fails

SPEAKER_05 11:48

has happened. Mother's Day just passed. How was Mother's Day for y'all? Do anything to celebrate? Anything fun for the mamas?

SPEAKER_03 11:59

We'll let you go. You've been quiet. We'll let you go.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Oh no, we we did all the random stuff. Uh family time. You know, we did I we bought uh my family, my kids and I had bought Rosetta a gift like a week before. Something she wanted to do. I'm not gonna announce on here, but uh something she wanted to do. So we bought her a gift uh a couple weeks before Mother's Day, so we didn't get a big gift for it. Um but we did all the normal things, the candy, the flowers, the uh, you know, clothes, gift card, and stuff like that. So and it's it's fun when she wakes up, we you know, kids rent and stuff in there tour and things like that. And then we uh went with my family and celebrated my mom uh that afternoon after church. So it was normal, basic. Um, but I love love honoring the mothers.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Yeah, same, same here. We you know, set up the table with some flowers and some small gifts, a bunch of letters, you know, pictures and stuff from the kids and all that, and uh you know, had a good time. Um for the first time both of our mothers came to our house for Mother's Day. Oh, that's nice. You know, when you got four kids, it's like you gotta come to me. You gotta come to me. Um but my wife, you know, set up a nice little, you know, situation there with some backdrops and balloons and stuff, and got to celebrate the moms together. So it was a good time.

SPEAKER_04 13:29

That's awesome. Yeah, same. Um got a little gift. The kids actually, it was kind of cool. I mean, I know this isn't as grand as some kids, but the kids actually in Target picked out their own cars. Like, I mean, like we're fussing about what car they were gonna get their mom. And they can't even read, but they did a good job. Um, but they both wanted their own particular car that they gave to her before church, and then we went out to eat with another family from the church right after, and of course, then took the Sunday ritual of a nap. Um and then after that, it was just TV and more sleep. So it was a pretty laid-back weekend um for us here too.

SPEAKER_05 14:10

So yeah, Mother's Day for me this year was a little different. So I didn't I didn't go back to see moms this time around. And my mom is at the point where she was like, it's okay. We're we done had enough Mother's Day. Y'all are grown now. I know y'all love me and appreciate me. But me and uh, you know, the sibs, the siblings, we want to still do something, something nice. So we start uh the thing is my mom's and dad's birthday, they share a birthday on April 28th. Really? They were both born on April 28th. Oh, that's awesome. Incredible love story. But Mother's Day is like back to back right after. It's like soon following. So we felt like we already got her a gift that she really liked and she really appreciated. And so, like, what would you get? What do we get her now? Well, we had a little disagreement between the sibs instead of getting one big gift. We couldn't decide. So one of them went rogue and was just like, well, I'm gonna go get our own gift. And then I was like, but I thought we had a plan. And the other one was like, well, then fine, I'm gonna do it too. So now I'm stuck. Like, what do I get? And it's the day before. And I'm like, okay, well, not not going home, what do I do? Sitting and called my mom day of, being like, Yeah, ma'am, your your your gift's in the mail. The gift won't in the mail. I didn't have I I failed. I was like, Yeah, it's in the mail, it's on the way. Ah, and then she says, you know what, son? Don't get me a gift. I want a handwritten letter from you. Oh. And she was like, go ahead and cancel it. It wasn't even ordered, but she's like, go ahead and known something. And she was like, just write me a handwritten letter. Let it be heartfelt. I'll be waiting in the mail. Oh. And I was like, wow, that's really special. That's beautiful. That's nice. And I was like, wow, the simple thing. I thought it needed to be something big and grand. I think she even told me, she was like, my age right now, I don't need anything else, but just like, just the genuineness of my family. Like, that's really important to me right now. Then she goes into her favorite subject of when I'm gone, y'all will miss me, and my work on this earth will be done, and I'll be with my father in heaven. I was like, mom, it's Mother's Day. We don't need to talk about your mortality right now.

Pickleball, Boxing, And Old Energy

SPEAKER_05 16:25

But it was a little different. And then um, I think afterwards, me and wife went to play pickleball for the first time.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Nice.

SPEAKER_05 16:33

I've been playing tennis my whole life. Table tennis can't none of y'all see me in. But I never tried pickleb. Come on, sir.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

I get I got a pretty good pong.

SPEAKER_02 16:48

Okay, we got it.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Overhand is nice.

SPEAKER_05 16:53

We gotta test it. So we went, we went and played pickleball for the first time ever. And it's so first of all, the pickleball community stacked. Oh, yeah, diverse, all age groups out there. I saw a couple grandmas and nanas out there. Oh, yeah, they be hit. Brother. It was going crazy. Um, so we went out there and we, you know, uh had a lot of fun doing that. It was actually one of our uh wedding anniversary gifts. We're like, let's let's put it out there and see if we can get a pickleball set. So we did. So that was a lot of fun. So pretty chill, pretty chill weekend with with the family and get mom her letter and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

So are the rules with with pickleball the same as like ping pong or tennis or something?

SPEAKER_05 17:33

Is it like I don't know the rules exactly. Oh right now we were just out back and forth. Yeah, we dropped there for practice, and we did we did play another uh another group out there. Um, but we were just like we just need to get our bearings. Yeah, yeah. We were both turning it into baseball real quick. It was going over the wall, going over the fence. Like, we just need to we need to calm down and learn the basics before we start getting competitive. But uh our goal is to get really good and then like on some like cute double date, invite another couple from the church to come with us. And we're just like, we're just we're just playing, we're just being cute and then straight dominate. I knew it was coming after y'all are good at it, then you want to invite people that don't know anything but just a clean house, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just one couple at a time, just knocking them off, boom, boom, boom. So, yeah, that's our that's our goal. But it's it's a it's a it's a fun sport. You don't gotta exert too much energy. The courts are smaller, it's it's a lot of fun. It is a lot of fun, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Cause I went I went and played, my son got into tennis last year and saw, you know, I bought me a racket to play with them. The course is so large. Especially when you're not very accurate with hitting. I told him, I said, if it's outside of these lines, you're getting it.

SPEAKER_05 18:56

So you put it. Tennis is a lot of work, man. It is. No courts don't look that big on TV.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Just to take a shot back from last week, I think you made a shot at me for being the old person of the group, like being the old man energy of the group. Like you just gave that whole splat that you just went on for it for 10 minutes on pickleball. Like, you are the youngest one at the group. That was real old energy. That was like I'm already preparing for retirement type energy. And there is some diversity from what you said, it sounds like, but I'm sure there wasn't very tokens.

SPEAKER_05 19:40

We were at the age, bro. I'm not gonna lie, age-wise, we was the only ones out there. I ain't gonna lie. The the threshold was pushing uh averaging 40s, 50s. I was up there with the old. I'm not gonna lie. They was balling. Yeah. They was balling out there.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

It's old man energy already. Grandparents before y'all parents.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

The uh those uh those girls that smoked them a few weeks ago made them go buy a pickleball set and uh circling all the way back to the previous conversation.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Like you and LeBron James are retiring all at the same time. So it's wild. You know what? I deserve it. All out the past church. I deserve it.

SPEAKER_05 20:22

I deserve it. I deserve it. I might just switch the sport completely now. Me and uh me and uh uh church member this morning, 5 a.m. workout. I was doing bag work, come on, boxing and stuff. Nice so much, I have so much energy. Yeah, I'm like ready to go. Yeah. So just let y'all know I do do young young man sports. Okay, you know, I'm still out here.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

I seen you lightly kicking the shins of that bag.

SPEAKER_05 20:49

Buddy, okay, so so I've only done hand work, but he likes to do like full body and all that kind of stuff. I never kicked a bag before. No, no, I wasn't, yeah. You know, it was just it was just it was just for like technique. It wasn't going for it.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Calf kicks are popular now in in MMA UFC world. Buddy. You got it down.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

There's a video out there.

SPEAKER_05 21:13

There's there's there's a video of the workout, not like competition. Just in the background throwing elbows, you know, it's just it's just something like to see it. I'm not gonna lie, I felt so awkward. I'm like kicking a bag, like if you don't land it correctly, the bag will kick back. Oh, yeah. There was a couple reps. I'm like, I'm not doing all 10 reps. I'm just getting back. I'm starting to get sore. Alrighty. But man, there's a lot of fun. Go go get active, go be outside and do something fun, man.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

The famous pickleball player is doing a workout on the sides. It can be better at pickleball. Okay. All right. All right, Pastor. Footwork and hands clean.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

He just he's getting. Get back. Let him get his get back.

SPEAKER_05 22:05

Oh man. This is one of those episodes where we didn't have a main topic coming

$100K A Day To Skip Baths

SPEAKER_05 22:10

into this. And so we're just kind of joshing around. But Chris, you did touch on something that we can get into.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Before we get too serious, okay. Happy anniversary to my wife. Oh, happy anniversary, man. She let me come to the podcast this morning. Thank you, Santana. You know, it's year Uno Uno. Wow. Or Onse. Okay. All right, all right. Year 11, so happy anniversary to you. Awesome. Yep. Lovely. Sorry. I had to get that out. Got to get that out.

SPEAKER_04 22:45

That's beautiful. I actually wasn't about to get serious either because I had a random question. Did y'all see my uh Instagram? I know you did. Where they had a challenge of would you stay in this spot? No, no, no. Not that. I'm sorry. Not that one. Y'all did answer that one. This is the one I want to ask. How many days could you go without taking a bath for $100,000 a day that you don't do it?

SPEAKER_06 23:10

$100,000 a day?

SPEAKER_04 23:11

You get $100,000 a day for every day that you can go without taking a bath.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Buddy. I'm ashamed to answer this question. I'm not. Don't be ashamed of it.

SPEAKER_04 23:22

Buddy.

SPEAKER_05 23:23

I'm coming out a multi-millionaire. I'm not multi-millionaire. And I'll still be around people. Yeah. I'll be around people. I'm going straight, never connected. We going seven years in the wilderness. Straight John the Baptist. Bro, I smell like locusts. Okay. We good over here. Absolutely. No question.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

You know what I actually believe you. I just saw your clip. All right. Did y'all see that? Yeah. Three years though, brother. Three years.

SPEAKER_05 24:07

I'm behind on all the things. Oh, I'll let you explain this. All right, look. Whatever you think this tall is AI is number one. I haven't bought underwear. New underwear. Wait, just hold on.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Wait, three years.

SPEAKER_05 24:28

Now, I'm of course they were washed. Of course I kept them, you feel me? But like a fresh new pack of like, hey, I need to get like just it's time to change out things. You know, I the the video was about paying attention to details and being a good steward over the details so they don't come back to bite you later. So I'm over here looking at new outfits and new shirts and all this kind of stuff. And God was like, you need to take care of these details. So I have you know that the real-stead of video like this.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Like I missed the days when there were like private parts. Like, like when there were like parts of our life that we did not know about each other. Like I'm all for community.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

It's not just sprinkled in the video. And this is opening hook. For the first time in three years, I bought underwear. It's it's uh details, but he he brought it together. You feel me? He brought it up.

SPEAKER_05 25:27

It was a sermon illustration, is what it was. I don't I brought it back around to the main topic. Now I'll have you know, the real talk group chat. Oh, that might ate you up. He got a hold of it, Mike. My brother, I know you are an avid listener. I love you, my guy.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

Thank you, Mike.

SPEAKER_05 25:48

Buddy.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

I'm glad he's directed at somebody else this week because he got me last week.

SPEAKER_05 25:55

Man, it was absolutely hilarious. My wife was like, You did this on purpose. I told you this would happen if you post that video. Like, it's gonna happen. But yeah, I mean, you know, I'm trying to find creative ways. It was a parable. Yeah, it was a parable. So, like my Lord and Savior, I have to relate to people who can understand. Right, Pastor? Back me up.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

No, don't connect your underwear you see and the fact that you've gone three years without buying underwear, which is the main issue, and then the fact that you released it on social media that this is the case with no shame. Like, with no like you you released it, and I'm assuming there wasn't any like um this is this is not a good thing. I don't know, whatever.

SPEAKER_05 26:46

So I'm not gonna lie. The first comment on that video was like, bro, you nasty nasty. He put it twice. It was like, you nasty nasty. I was like, damn, I think I might have got too creative here. I might have went too far. Um, but yeah, you know, appreciate y'all for watching the video. You feel me? Yeah, yeah. It's gonna live with me for a little while. I'm gonna have to plug for you. Appreciate it. Yeah, we're going through a journey right now of posting a hundred videos in a hundred days of me yapping and talking. I would love to get a like a personal brand or like be known for speaking and talking and all that kind of stuff. Some of my dream jobs would be, you know, getting being being known for talking, being be able to make a career and a living off. Like I just get to talk. I feel like that is the coolest career ever. So I'm trying my hand at it content creation. And uh yeah, day 15 or 14 was that day. And uh, I'm not gonna say I was running out of ideas, I was just inspired.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

The video right before that, I think, was my videos are flopping.

SPEAKER_02 27:52

So the very next video is like what's gonna get these video views? No, what happens is I don't know, I don't know if this happens.

SPEAKER_05 28:04

This is actually a good question, like for you when it comes to like sermon illustrations or sermon things that are happening. Sometimes I'm like, real life inspires the story. Okay, and so that was a real life moment I was having, but I was just like it's kind of crazy that I waited three years to do this. How did I get here? And then it was just like I don't pay attention to details for one.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Okay, buying underwear is a tricky thing, all right? Talk about it because it's it's hard to spend the kind of money that it takes to get good underwear. It's like, but I already got some holes in them, but it's like it's not hurting anything. And then it's like, well, if I buy George underwear after the second wash, you know, they're they're no good anymore. And it's like, you know, you you want to buy a good pair, right?

SPEAKER_05 29:02

Do you go Hanes, Fruit of the Loom, Cotton, Polyast. Like it's it's a lot of, and sometimes you just get overwhelmed and you just don't do it for three years.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Yeah, it it apparently happens.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

I don't know why we're having this conversation, but since we're here just as a as a and this is I owe my owe my mom owe my mom credit for this. To answer the question, to get night, because I I agree with you, there are a few things that you should not skimp on, and that's one of those for me. And I think TJ Maxx, Ross, yeah, stores like that where you get name brands. You get like a Kenneth Cole or something for I'm telling you, but nobody sees it, but they're good quality, and it's uh so just a shameless plug to get good quality stuff, and I don't know why they're at TJ Maxx or Ross. Maybe there's a little bit of printing wrong or something, but you get them like it, yeah, 20% of the promoted.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

That is where, because my uh my good friend Zach, he uh he was a Kenneth Cole model when he lived in New York, and he was on the underwear package. Oh wow. So, and a lot of times I would find them in those stores. So every time I seen them, I grabbed a pair. Because you go, that's my boy, you know?

SPEAKER_02 30:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

So and they're good. They're good, it's good stuff. Support. Yeah, please support your friends with your friend. Where's the one in today? Segue somewhere, segue somewhere. Oh, Pastor Jason went to field day.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

Oh man, bell, bell, bell. Oh, there's so many places.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Segway goes somewhere. You always ready to do a segue, but you better segue.

SPEAKER_05 30:59

Segue.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

All right, segue.

SPEAKER_05 31:01

Main topic. This is this is the part of the podcast. We're 30 minutes in. We gotta talk about some deeper root stuff. We gotta talk about something serious.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

All right, Chris, help me out.

Do Pastors Need Credentials

SPEAKER_04 31:12

So I don't know if y'all have been um seeing this on your timelines, but there's kind of a a big deal going around where there's a particular person out there named a lady named Dr. Cheyenne Bryant. She's known to like give relationship advice and been going on talk shows and all these things and giving her advice and whatnot. But what's come up recently is they're trying to get her to show her accreditation, like that she's actually gone to accredited school, and where did you get your license from? What was your dissertation? And she has yet to prove any of this. And she started talking, she started talking about how she ended up ironically going to a school that's been shut down, and she can't get her stuff. But if you've been in school beyond undergrad and even undergrad, you know that you're not just gonna have no degree like that, that you don't have it, and you to be able to produce if you got a doctorate, you got somewhere, bro.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

You got picture frame somewhere. I'm going home with something.

SPEAKER_04 32:14

Yeah, so like, and nobody's really stepped up for like people have uh said, Oh yeah, I was at that school with a look, and they'll have a picture of them graduating, but then it says Timu, Timu, Timu, was it mu Timu University on her degree, but their degree says something else. So they've just been coming out the woodworks for. But you know, that's really I thought that was interesting. Like, I don't have a leg to stand on with that. I do know that she had an interview where she said that um basically she doesn't practice under the scope of the group or whatever the rules they abide by so that she can be more relatable and have the freedom to say what she needs to say and not be restricted by the guidelines of the community that oversees it, which is interesting um all in itself. But since I'm not in that lane, I'm not really here to talk about that. What sparked the interest in that for me was do you think pastors should hold credentials over these churches? Do you think they should have gone to divinity school or had some kind of teaching? Um, and if so, I mean, because I'm sure a lot of people don't even probably think about that. Because a lot of the a lot of controversy is that she can do more harm than good because she hasn't been properly equipped with what she needs to be able to speak to these people in this manner and shape and fashion. So I'm curious to know y'all's thoughts on should a pastor have a degree?

SPEAKER_05 33:38

Question when we when we say pastor, are we talking about you're just a gift of the pastor? Maybe you're just the youth pastor or you're the relationship, a counseling pastor. Are we talking about a pastor leading the church from the pulpit every Sunday position? We can shoot for all of them. Oh, down the list. Uh I'll let y'all go first before I say anything.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

Um I do not find that in Paul's letters of necessary uh to uh he he there's a lot in uh in the New Testament about church and how it should be formed and the things that you look for in a leader, and most of those are character qualities and not um I don't think I think the more education you have, I mean that's that's good, that's a positive. Um but just like a lot of other subjects, you know, what's your ongoing education look like? What's your personal relationship with God look like? Um, but I think you can be called to do something that you don't necessarily have uh a four or six, eight-year degree on.

SPEAKER_05 34:58

Because it makes you think like, was Moses qualified to lead the Israelites? You know, he doesn't call the qualified, he qualifies the call. We all heard that sermon too. You've heard that sermon. My favorite was God will use crooked sticks to make straight lines. Have you heard that one? Another black pastor, my bad.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

I was crazy. Whoa, that was I was wild like that.

SPEAKER_05 35:26

You need to relax. But I I think do you need credential? Ah, I got a hot take. My hot take is yes, to a certain degree, there needs to be some sort of confirmation of your position. Somebody gotta vouch for you at some point. I think in the age of anybody can say anything and get followers, I feel like there needs to be some sort of parameter to be like, well, who who can vouch for you? Who's who's checking you? Who's who are you under? Who can we go to for information on you? What if they have that? If they even have that.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

I mean, what if like what if it's somebody, but they're under somebody that, you know, it's not just a rogue pastor, but a which you mean, break it down for me.

SPEAKER_04 36:21

Like, so they don't have a degree, but they're still under a pastor.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:27

Yeah, I think that's okay. Because it's like mentorship, it's like somebody can still vouch for you. Yeah. Like somebody can still say, uh, this person has worked under my wing for so for such such and such a time that I I feel like I'm okay with that. It's like if you spring up out of nowhere and you got a quote unquote word from the Lord and nobody is confirming. Jesus didn't even do that. Jesus didn't even show up on the scene and be like, I am that I am, I am the Messiah. He says, I come under the will of my father. If you speak to me, you're speaking to the father. Uh me and wife were actually reading, I think it's John 7. John 6 or 7. 6, 7. And between there, he talks about how the authority that he has is confirmed by the father.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:15

The uh the instruction, because the Pharisees were like, yo, who is it? Isn't that Mary's boy? Mary and Joseph's son. Like, who is this? And he pointed back to his covering being his father. Uh, I think about Paul. Um, they were like, Who sent you? Where'd you come from? And Peter had to check him and be like, yo, we need to sit down and have a conversation. Because if you talk about carrying this gospel, we need to make sure. And then Peter was like, Oh no, he checks out. He he did meet with you know, Jesus. He he is preaching the correct gospel. So maybe not a formal education, but there has to be gotta be sent something something.

SPEAKER_04 37:52

No, but who confirms the sending? Because they could still, in their own right, show up and say, God said and showed up. But even with Jesus, I was thinking about when you said that, because John actually confirmed him too. When he was being baptized, he spoke about him, and then even God himself speaking about Jesus when he came out the order.

SPEAKER_05 38:08

This is my son of whom I will. So I'll say I'll say it like this, not to go back on what I said, but there is safety in a multitude of counsel.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:15

So if there's a multitude of counsel around you, that we can be like, okay, this is the the cloth that they're cut from, this is where they're going. And I feel like you can stand firm. There's always gonna be people who question yadda yadda yadda, but if we can do our due diligence, I think it just makes you uh a better witness.

SPEAKER_04 38:34

I mean, so I'm thinking about it, and this probably is not gonna be a popular opinion, but divinity school, I feel like it certain divinity schools, put them all out there, I feel like they make you more of a historian. And they teach you more history, and then you learn the culture and you learn about the times, and depending on what school you go to and what denomination they seem to focus on, you also learn about those people's perspectives. Um, but I don't feel it makes you have the spiritual connection that you need with God, that it doesn't give you that true revelation about a lot of things because you can know the facts and the times and be able to present that well to give a backstory and set it up. But if you can't make it relate to current times, then there's still a gap in everything. Um and I guess for me, you can find if you have the right leadership, they'll show you how to research that part with all the tools we have nowadays and online and things of that nature. Um and revelation of life. Because Paul actually did study for a while too, so that he has a little bit of both on his end. Um, so I I don't think it's a hindrance. I I think it is a plus. Um I wouldn't say that just because they didn't have one, that I wouldn't listen to them, because again, if they're coming up on a great mentorship, oh, they're gonna get that without having to go to school. Or their church may have something like we have impact leadership and I see a lot of churches starting to do that where they're they're trying to instill their people um for leadership. Um I do think it is very important though to have some of that, some kind of teaching and training. It doesn't have to be a degree from somewhere, but I do strongly feel that you should have gone through some courses of some sort.

SPEAKER_05 40:26

Yeah. I think that's why I asked you what what pastoral position are we talking about here? Because like it gets to a point, dude, where we your theology is gotta be straight. You might you might go up there passionate and wrong. Yeah, you might go up there interpreting something that based on your own experience, and that's not what the scripture said. So there has to be, like I said, it has to be some sort of covering, some sort of parameter. Um yeah, I I I think there are moments where the Holy Spirit can come on you and you can preach and teach in ways that you didn't even know that you pulled from the scripture, and it'd be like so theologically sound. But when it comes to these positions of leading a government body, uh it's a little scary. I've seen some real passionate youth pastors.

SPEAKER_04 41:13

Wrong.

SPEAKER_05 41:14

Just wrong. Oh two years later, you just wrong, but you you you get you get real hype about your little you know, 30-man group that you start going against the lead, the the pastoral messaging that's coming from the po like, bro, that's that's too much. Or I've seen very young, um, enthusiastic um uh pastors that were confirmed, they did come from a certain group, they start teaching, they start preaching, and then they start to leave the fold later in life, and like maturity doesn't edge out the way it's supposed to. And so while you started well, you started here and go on. And the last thing I'll say, I don't feel like I'm yapping too much, but uh hot take, I've seen divinity push out more Pharisees than pastors.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_05 41:57

Like I've seen more Sadducees and Pharisees come out divinity school than I have really strong, good individuals. So I don't know, it has to be discerned.

SPEAKER_00 42:08

I think y'all's y'all's points are great. I think my conclusion would be that it's the education does not validate and it does not invalidate for or against. It's it's the discernment of the person, understanding who the who the person is. Um I I love your point though, Isaiah, that that government and confirmation within the body is so important because we live in a um we live in a generation where, you know, I I want to be this, I feel like I'm this, I'm this, and and that's not the scriptural evidence, that's not the scriptural precedent either. Um going all the way back to Acts 6, uh, with the laying of hands on the on the deacons, and then Acts 13, the releasing of uh the mission, the first missionaries, they were all the church was praying and fasting, and then those leaders were confirmed and sent from the body. Um, I think that's the precedent. If uh, you know, you know, uh seminaries, denominations, things of that nature have created a formalized uh way of doing that, which I agree has the opportunity then to take the spirit out of it, and it becomes more mechanical and uh formulaic uh than actually spiritual. Um that's why I think you know the autonomy of a church is important, but the multitude of counsel is important, accountability is important. In my opinion, every pastor should have a pastor. Uh, there should be uh, you know, people that you hold accountable to. And then there are orthodox doctrinal things, core things that you should know that you should um that you should be checked in. Uh and and so I think, you know, obviously I agree that that education. Is not a you know and another way of saying it, you're not I have an education, so therefore I'm validated to be a pastor. I I don't think you can go that far because the system has become so formulaic that you can go through those seminaries without even being a believer. Ask me how I know, because I sit in those and and we're a part of them. And I know sitting beside people who care nothing about Jesus, no fruit in their life. All they're concerned about was getting the document and the degree to go get to have a job and a career. Um, and that's that's a sad epitaph, but it's possible. And so I think it needs to be discerned.

Church Governance, Covering, Accountability

SPEAKER_00 44:43

There needs to be autonomy within the church, but I'm also not in favor of the movement of, you know, I know the church went house from house, and this is this, I hope I say this without hurting, but I know the church went from house to house, but they also met in the synagogue. So I'm the the whole movement of we have, you know, 10, 12 people in a house and we're a church. I I don't I can't get there because there's no governance, there's no accountability, there's no submission to authority. That that's not a church that maybe a small group should be under the covering of a church, but that's not a church. It should be uh, in my opinion, there should be government, there should be accountability, there should be functions of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers. There should be those offices and functions operating in that church. And it's not just a group of 10 or 12 believers. If there's no government, I don't think you can actually call that the ecclesia, the called out uh people. So I think there's governance that that the New Testament establishes uh that are necessary. And then there's a releasing and ascending of those that are discerned and known from spiritual material believers that they are called. They have been identified as that being a calling on their life. Spiritual people notice it, recognize it, equip it, resource it, and uh allow them to excel and flourish in what they're called. That's an interesting thought.

SPEAKER_05 46:12

We believe that God is the creator and he created marriage in a certain parameter, and he created you know how the tabernacle shall flow in a certain parameter. He's the same creator that set up the church structure.

SPEAKER_03 46:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:25

So to your point of there is a difference between a small group and a church. The structure is different. The five-fold ministry is there, the the way the elders are set up and all that kind of stuff. That is the church. I I've never really thought of it that way of like, yeah, it it's a strong word because it it'll be some Ichabod written on a lot of churches. Um, but like there is a there is a structure for the church that is set up by God on purpose, with purpose.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

That's right. Ecclesiology, like the study of the church, I think is an important study as to to because Paul was very clear as to what the church would entail, the form, the flow, the all of that. And and they don't all have to look the same. It's it should be a very organic, in my opinion, very organic, autonomous. But there should be things that you look at and you notice that's a core principle of what a church ought to be. Um, and I think from that governance, you can release and send a lot of people. Um, but I I think there's a lot of rebellion that is camouflaged under the the uh the covering of I'm called, but is is in my opinion, is rebellion that refuses to submit to the governance of the ecclesia the ecclesia that just wants to go do its own thing and and then we put you know spiritual language on it to say, you know, nobody nobody sees my gift, and I'm Joseph, I'm standing all about myself. But that's old testament. In the New Testament, if you are of the spirit and you are bearing the fruit and the gift is on your life, maybe not everybody, maybe even sometimes not a majority, but you will be confirmed by somebody spiritually. God won't just reveal something to you that He doesn't send confirmation through somebody else within the government of the church. Last statement. That's why when Jesus talked about Matthew 18 or Matthew 16, um, I build my church, he he begins to talk about binding and loosing the authority that a church has to govern. Um, and I think a lot of times in the Jesus is my homeboy generation, we lose that authority of what the church is supposed to be. We are ambassadors, we are we on earth as it is, on heaven in heaven as it is, uh establish it on earth. That's a governing type idea of putting those principles in place, of establishing those apostles, those that are sent, prophets, those that are declaring the word of God, sharing and declaring and establishing the form and fashion of what the the uh believing church ought to be.

SPEAKER_04 49:05

Amen. Which I won't bring this up, but since we're there and we're in that lane if we got time, um, because we're talking about somebody and acknowledging you and declaring for you.

Who Gets To Call Themselves A Prophet

SPEAKER_04 49:17

So with the office, and maybe I'm wrong when I say office, but with the office of prophet, because you talked about how church should have, who actually declares that they're prophets and that they can because it's a lot of self-proclaimed prophetic people, and I think it's a difference in being prophetic at times versus really holding the office of prophet, where that's just all the time, and I think even still you can have a prophetic word that may just be for one or two people or just to yourself, versus you being a prophet that speaks to the nations, that's declaring that there's gonna be a drastic change, like Jeremiah, Elijah being able to go to people and tell them, oh, it's not gonna rain, the council or government, but like it's not gonna rain until I come back and tell you. I think it's a difference. But do you feel that they are also acknowledged by pastors or any schooling? Like, what would declare them to be a prophet that should be acknowledged as so as one walking in the office of prophet versus someone that just has prophetic moments?

SPEAKER_00 50:15

I feel like I talked a lot on that last one. See, y'all y'all get in there, and I I definitely have strong opinions on it, but I love to hear y'all's.

SPEAKER_05 50:23

Yeah, um I don't I don't know how deep my theology goes around who confirms a prophet. The only thing I hear come in my head is test a prophet by the words that they speak. And so if you're a prophet that keeps prophesying and we don't see no results, canceled like immediately pack them up. Um and then I also see in the Bible where there's like the I'm I'm fuzzy on it, but there was a council of prophets in the old testament. That they the school of prophets, they traveled together. Um in the New Testament, I know there is both the office and the spirit of a prophet. Um but I don't know. I I feel like it's one of those groups, and this is my naivete kicking in. I feel like the prophet is one of those groups where it's just like you're confirmed by the words that you speak.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:17

It's like does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 51:20

Yeah, I feel like correct me if I'm wrong here. Um there is a difference now between prophecy in the old testament and prophecy in the new testament. I believe the prophets prophets in the old testament were pointing towards something that we have now. So I feel like pro New Testament prophecy isn't necessarily um saying something's about to come to pass, or you know, uh the direction of the nation is this or that, but more so encouragement to the body, uh reflecting on what has happened, the scriptures, the truth. Um and and it may be direction, but uh it's founded, I believe, in the word, something, the word of God. And uh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:13

And I'll I'll say this, I'll say this too. My comment is coming because I'm a teacher. Yeah, and because, and this is me being transparent, because I'm a teacher, the office of prophecy can feel a little strange to me sometimes because I'm a teacher. I think it's real, I think it's needed, I think it's necessary, I think it is a pillar in what we need. But my there there is a little bit of my skepticism that comes in because I'm such a teacher, I'm such a show me it in scripture, where is it coming from that I have to open myself up. I need to mature and open myself up to prophecy a little bit more. So my commentary might be coming from a very biased place. I'm gonna just want to put that out there.

SPEAKER_00 52:54

I think that's the beauty of.

SPEAKER_01 52:56

I'm sorry, I was just gonna read a scripture. Yes, go. The one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. I think a lot of times we think of prophet as like I I've been to some of those churches growing up because I had some aunts that were in some of those uh like I see what's gonna happen in your future and it's something specific, but I just feel like it's that's that's not what I mean. I'm not saying that can't ever happen. Um, like uh, you know, a word of knowledge from God or something is is impossible. I don't I don't believe it's impossible, uh, but I don't think that's the main um office of and it's it's one of the flashier ones out of all of them.

SPEAKER_05 53:46

You can you can get you a nice little crowd if you start prophesying.

SPEAKER_01 53:50

Oh, yeah, especially good things.

SPEAKER_02 53:51

Exactly. Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 53:54

Y'all's points are incredible, and I'll I'll speak in two ways because I think your your question was mainly around the function or the office of and then the the gifting of, which I think are two different

The Purpose Of The Five-Fold Ministry

SPEAKER_00 54:08

things. Um so Ephesians 4 talks about in the five-fold ministry, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers. Um, some say the pastor teacher is is one gifting, no argument here, but I think that's the beauty of going back to our conversation around the government of the church, the beauty of the diversity of leadership, that all of those giftings are important. You brought up that your strongest gift would be in teaching. And as important as that gifting is, I you noticed and understood the need for a prophetic voice in leadership. And I think that's the the genius of the church is that all five of those, I mean, if you notice your fists, the the metaphor, I mean, the the idea if you notice your fists, if I hit you with one finger, not a lot of pain. But if I put all of them together, there's strength in that togetherness. And I think that's what the the New Testament church is the diversity of us being in the spirit, and there are apostolic voices and there are prophetic voices and there are evangelistic voices. Because if there's not evangelistic voices, we become so self-centered. No disrespect to the teacher, but we become so edifying of ourselves that we never go outside of our walls. And if the evangelistic voice becomes so strong, we never equip and disciple the ones that are being converted. And I think that's the beauty and the strength of the five-fold function ministry, that there are those um influences that all are directing the church in the way that it should be. And then from a second standpoint, Paul made the statement in 1 uh Corinthians 14. He said, I wish you all would prophesy. So, although prophecy or the office of a prophet is a function that's needed to lead and govern the church, there's also prophecy that Paul encouraged not just the office, but the whole believing company to have and to walk in. And going right to what you said, uh Book of Revelation declares that the uh the spirit of prophecy is the that the prophecy is the is the testimony of Jesus. The spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. So that's the declaration. And I I would say that there it could be two ways. It could be just uh you'll see in the prophet, the personalities can be a lot different, but you'll see uh to use the Greek word rhema, the own time description of this is the word of the Lord for right now. You get you get you you could open scriptures and be taught from any place, but to have a prophetic voice that says says this is what God is speaking to us right now, it's own time, it's the preceding word of the Lord. And God and Paul encourages the whole body to walk in that standpoint of declaring the testimony of Jesus, of walking in the spirit and being able to declare this is the word of the Lord. And I believe there are some uh foretelling aspects of it that are needed sometimes. This is but the tribe of Issachar in the Old Testament, they understood the times that they were in. And I think that's the that's the prophetic voice, is they understand the time. They're not, if you could take, for example, like a farmer, they're not planting in the fall. Like, like a farmer knows when you're supposed to be planting, and when you're supposed to be harvesting, and when you're supposed to be watering, and when you're supposed to be, and and I think without that, you can you can do the right things, but it's out of time. You're you're you're planting seed when you're supposed to be harvesting seed. And that's why I think the prophetic voice is so needed in a church to say, this is what we need to be doing right now, this is what the Lord is saying right now, this is where we are right now, and they understand the times so that we're not uh we're not beating at the air, we're not, we're not wandering around in circles. There's a there's a prophetic utterance uh with a function that the body knows we're in the spirit and this is what the spirit is saying at this time.

SPEAKER_05 58:39

Amen to all that. I think too, there's um unfortunately where where some of my my grief comes from in the office of prophecy is that the words the say of the Lord or God told me feels so watered down. And it it I don't I don't want to lose respect for the office of prophecy. I don't want to, I think it is so needed. I think um it is probably one of one of the most disrespected gifts because nobody really, if you're a prophet for real, yeah, nobody wanted to be around the prophet. Yeah, nobody wanted to hear that call out um that uh is a prophet, I think it was Samuel that told David, you are that man. Like that that strong uh uh declaration to come from prophecy, but it was so needed to get Israel back on track or to get certain kings back on track or to get certain people back on track or to let them know different aspects of the gospel they wouldn't have known. But the words thus say it the Lord, and God told me so, there has got to be some reference to come back to that type of authority. You are speaking on God's behalf, and you decide to tell me I'm getting a new car. Yeah, that's you can't I'm I'm I'm strong, I'm being strong right now, but like it the reverence I feel like is a little lost in modern American church.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:01

I agree. Uh those those terms God said, God told me, God is saying I would always tread lightly. I'm not saying I won't never say it and never feel so strongly that I feel but I prefer a not telling anybody how to do what God tells them to do. I prefer to submit it to the body or submit it to who I'm talking to. This is what I sense, this is what I feel like the Lord's saying, this is what I perceive. Um I I prefer to use that language because I am a human. Uh I my own thoughts can interfere, my own feelings can sway me. Uh I I prefer if I feel like because I've had times where I feel like it was a time for the moment and I was supposed to say something to somebody or something. Um, but I I don't think you lose authority in submitting uh submitting it to I feel like this is what God's saying.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:10

Let's make that contradiction between the Old Testament and the New Testament spot on, because in the New Testament, Paul in the book of Corinthians says, let the prophet speak by two or three and the others judge. There is accountability to the prophetic with one another. And I reverence, honor to that, respect to that, I completely agree that I think it's uh it's a submission thing. I sense and feel. I I'll go back even, I somebody mentioned made the statement earlier. I think maybe in the question you asked, should the office of the prophet be infallible? No mistakes. And and I'm I'm maybe this is a weak perspective on this. I'm not taken away from reverence, I'm not taken away from honor, but I I don't I I I think there needs to be room for mistake with accountability. So if if someone says, let's say someone is immature in the gifting, but they're gifted in that way. And so they're attempting to exercise it, to use it, to walk in it, to to learn how to. And I think in the spirit, you don't learn how to use a gift without trying it. And I think that the desire for or the pressure of infallibility will keep people from ever walking in the gift. And I think that's the beauty of what Paul said. I wish you all would prophesy. What is the Lord saying to you and submitting it in humility? And if it's not the word of the Lord, letting somebody else correct you, say, no, no, no, we you were off on this because there was some selfish ambition there, there was some pride there, there was some, there was a lens that you were looking through that was not you. And now the church again is governing itself. Yeah, not to be governed from the outside, but to govern itself. And I think there should be opportunities for prophets to speak and then to admit that they missed it, and us not to negate the gift on their life because they were they're humans. Um, and I think there's a balance there, not using, not losing the reverence, not losing the honor, of course not. But then, of course, uh but then giving place for the human expression of somebody in humility doing their best to operate in the gift that God has called them to operate in. And in fact, the humility after mistake, after a mistake, speaks louder to the strength and the gifting on that person's life than, in my opinion, infallibility. Because if you pre if you say to me as a Christian, I don't care how long you've been saved, that you don't fail, I all of a sudden lose your credibility in anything that you say. Because now you have an image of something that is not honest. If Paul himself confessed a thorn in his flesh that kept him humble, as a as a as a minister of the word of God, I think there should be place for uh you said it well, I submit this, judge this, let others judge it, yeah, let others speak into what they're seeing. Um, and and and again, if it's and if it's if it's judged down and you still feel strongly about it, hold on to it and let the fruit of it back it up, and then that gains credibility for you as well. But I don't think a prophet ever does himself uh never does himself good by being uh aggressively prideful in his expression. It should always be submitted and then you wait for God to back up what you said.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:44

Yeah. I think to your point, that's an importance of having the full five-fold ministry around you, even as like my friends. Like I've like right now, I'm hearing all this, I'm like, man, I need to pray that God sends me friends that operate in that gift too. Because if I, as teacher, there you can study each gift, there's a downside to every single gift. Um, there's an immaturity side to every gift. And I'm thinking, like, man, I know we're we're talking about prophecy right now, but some of the themes that you're you're talking about just encases over all of them, like when it comes to pride and when it comes to um uh selfish desires and all that kind of stuff. I'm thinking, man, me as a teacher who relies on the teaching of scripture to inform my worldview, my downside can be my intellect begins to inform all of my worldview. And because I know so much, now it's just like, hey, spiritually, you know, prophecy, you don't seem accurate because it's not backed up in the facts. And it's like, oh, well, if I have prophets around me and pastors around me, and uh other teachers and other evangelists that can be like, hey, let's let's let the gifts of God inform the other gifts of God. And then have that balance of something like, wow, my prayer needs to change to be like, Lord, send me other giftings around me. I don't want to be surrounded by only teachers. Come on. I don't want to be surrounded. If I'm a prophet, I don't want to be surrounded by only other prophets because it's it's imbalance. Going to a church of only evangelists, to your point, is the same downfall of Isaiah having only teacher friends around him. Like it there needs to be a balance.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:17

That's the beauty of the church, man. The body is so intricate and it's genius that the Lord would would build and do this. He he told Peter, he said, Upon this rock, I'll build my church, and the gates of hell won't prevail against it. And this was Addison, you know, before it's you know, you got 12 men, and all of them he knows is getting ready to deny them, deny him, uh disassociate from him, but he still had a picture of that that Paul calls it in the book of Ephesians, it's the mystery of the church, the coming together of the Jews and the Gentiles, the the body being formed, and there is form to the body. And I think that's the whole point of what we're kind of speaking to is that there is form to the body, there is structure to the body. I believe wholeheartedly in organic. Uh, I think, again, going back to you can definitely uh strategize or formula your way out of the move of the spirit, but the move of the spirit is never disorderly and it never brings confusion. And both of those things can be true. The glory of God, the order of God looks like heaven, the order of God looks like our natural body. So much is going on all at one time, but it's beautiful how it fits together.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:36

Amen. Uh, church shouldn't be a pyramid.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:39

Amen. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:41

Shouldn't be one person at the top, one gifting at the top.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:43

Amen.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:44

Should be uh

Leaving Celebrity Church For A Body

SPEAKER_05 1:07:45

wow. Great, great question, sir. You got us into something serious. We started off a little shaky. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:51

And I to your point, too. Like, I would encourage people when they're looking for uh a church, look for those gifts. And they don't have to be in the form of you know, senior pastor and lead pastor and executive pastor, like the titles, in my opinion, are are you know it's it that could come or go. But the function of those giftings, like, and and I'm you know, just thinking as you guys were talking to, like we should look around our church and we could see we should see apostolic voices, and we have those. We should see prophetic voices that have urgency to what they say, and they're like, no, it's time to go. Let's go. Put the put the pedal to the metal, let's get it. There should be teaching voices, there should be discipling voices. And and I would just encourage people when they're looking for a church, look for those functions uh operating in the church. For again, it will not be a perfect church, but the healthy churches will have those different gifts, and those gifts will work together and not overemphasize one or the other as to feel like uh, you know, this is the only one that matters. I think the healthy church walks on two legs, and so there's strength and grace and all of that. So you, as you mentioned about your personal life, but also the churches that you get you get uh established in, you get rooted in. Uh, there should be all of those uh working together.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:12

Yeah. And as you were talking, um, I just thought about kind of what RJ was saying too. And in doing that, I ask that y'all pray that God removes the veil from over your eyes, that it's not a you're not looking for it to be in the form that you think they should stand in, that you can truly see what he means in those those positions, that you can see that in them because you're not looking for them to declare the walls falling down uh when it comes to a prophet or apostles. Like you're literally looking for God to show you and declare, okay, look, that's that's actually a prophet right there. Look at what they're doing. You can see it in that manner versus our own personal or worldly views of what that office should look like. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:52

And man, too, you probably feel like I'm tag teaming with you. I this is convicting because I'm seeing how my lens over the years has been um marred with pride. Um I think before I'm before I came to impact when I would go to a church, I would look to see if the pastor had all the giftings.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:14

Good, great point. You know what I mean? Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:16

Like I would I would I would visit a church and be like, I need to listen to this sermon and I need to focus on this one individual to see do they have apostle, do they have prophet, do they have all this stuff? And I I I looking back, I'm like, man, I really mess messed myself up in judging a lot of churches because I didn't look at the rest of the body. Did the body have the gift things, not just the executive council or just the one person, or I I would even I to be to be connected, I would look for the titles. Is the title of apostle in this church? And a lot of times the you don't necessarily see what on the web on the church website, this is our apostle, this is our pastor, this is our teacher. You don't see that, and you can't get it all from one individual. And I think I've judged a lot of local pastors because I'm like, well, they're not prophetic enough, yeah, and they're not teacher enough. That's good, they don't seem like they've ever established any churches before as an apostle. That's a great. And so it's like I get sucked into it, needs to all be in one individual, and the only being that has all of them is God. That's it. And I'm just this is an aha like click moment that I'm just having right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:21

And doesn't that take the pressure off of leaders too, not to be all of those things and be okay with not being? And then it requires humility to operate with other giftings and and and uh so I I agree that there's a there is a pressure on ministers to be all of those things, which handy I don't I don't and I just think that's the beauty again of the New Testament church that God did not put all of those giftings in one person, He put it in Jesus, and now we are his body. So now there's none of us possess all of those, none of us possess all the ones in 1 Corinthians 12, Romans chapter 12, 1 Corinthians 14. None of us possess all of those, Ephesians 4. We all connecting with somebody else have everything that we need. Yeah, that's why pride is such a divider in the body, because it feels like I've got this, yeah, you got this. That's an important part. You're indispensable and dependent at the same time. And I think both of those married together, yours is extremely cannot operate without it, but it also means nothing if it's by itself. Yeah, it's a branch that needs to be burned, according to John 15. But if it's connected to the vine and connected with other believers, then those branches they all produce fruit together. Man, and the glory goes to the vine.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:40

Yes, sir. The ladder of this conversation goes so far because it's like I don't feel like I'm growing in this church. Well, wow, because you can't get to the pastor. Okay, you know, like it it keeps going, like it spurts. There is so much comfort in knowing that if I can't get to Pastor D or Pastor Jason, yeah, I can get to Chris, yeah, who has the same, a different gifting that I might need. And if I can't get to Chris, I can get to I don't name anybody, anybody in the church that has another gift because it doesn't come straight from the pulpit. It's a body. The body possesses these things. There might be certain positions that might be a little louder or forefront of the others, but there's such a comfort to be like, I don't have to keep ringing that one individual's number for everything that I need in my life. We're a body, there's other people that can have this that I can pull from. Now I'm not draining the one individual that one position. It's that is such a protective measure that God put in place in the New Testament church to be like, no, you don't have to go to one, you don't have to go only to Moses. Yeah, you don't have to go only to David. There's a body now. Wow. It's like I'm starting to see the ripple effects of the five-fold ministry.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:53

And I'm even just thinking about most people function out of going to church out of what they want versus what they need. Yeah. So you can show up at a church and be like, I want to hear Pastor Jason, but because Pastor Jason isn't speaking, I've now shut down. But he wasn't what you needed at the time. Whoever Pastor D, what he had actually was what you needed, but you just disassociated it and discredited it because it didn't come from Pastor Jason. And a lot of us miss out in church because of those reasons, because we want it to come in the shape, fashion, form in which we desire, but letting God truly provide it how he wants to, yeah, when he wants to, from who he wants to.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:29

He said, I will draw all men to me. He didn't say who the who was gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:34

That's what we've we talked about when we first started the podcast about celebrity believers, celebrity, and and that's why I feel like that is so anti-Christ. And it is, and I'm not saying that, I'm not blaming anybody for it. We just live in that culture of we want to make the glamorous giftings celebrities, and we want to put them on a pedestal. And on the other side, the ministers receive it as a pedestal, take it as a I'm I'm this and I'm that. And I you you you nailed it when you're saying that was the the caution of of how Jesus established the church, that there are no celebrities. Are there giftings that are more glamorous? Yes. Are there giftings that are that are louder, that are more seen? Yes. And first Corinthians speaks about that as well. But the ones that are most seen does not discredit the ones that are not seen. In fact, the ones that are not seen, Paul says, are just as important, even more important than the ones that are seen. And I in our church is true, and I try to say it as much as possible. Nothing happens in this room, nothing happens in this building, in our services at any time, except because there are people that are in the background that are executing it, and most importantly, there are people that are praying for it. And they don't, there's there's people that pray for this church on a daily basis. Nobody knows their name, and they haven't held a microphone in a year's time, but they are holding this whole thing together because of their relationship with I'm not saying it's them per se, but their giftings are the glue that makes all of this work. And without them, it means, and I think that's what Paul saw in the in the church. He said the ones that are overlooked or that are considered smaller are actually the most important part.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:24

Wow. Amen. Yeah, I think it's uh it's uh I was thinking earlier, like when you was talking about not having to wait on the pastor, like at hear an impact, it's awesome. If you just look around, like especially into service or something, every you'll see people leaving their seats and going ministering to somebody in the back on the other side. Yeah, it just you see people and it's like you'll you know, you feel a pool to somebody. Like I I may be sitting there um by the by the stage or something watching uh Pastor Jason kind of seeing what's going on, and then I'll feel like I'll maybe feel a pull on somebody. I'm like, man, I'm I feel like I may go praise for some. Then I'll see somebody go get them. And I'm like, man, praise God. I'm you know, like one voice. Yeah, and it's like you just see all this ministry just happening. Some are coming to the altar, and some are just going from chair to chair, laying hands on people, praying for people, giving encouraging words. And it's like it takes all that, all that is needed and necessary and beautiful, and and I promise there's a reward for that just as much as there's a reward for the things you see on the stage.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:44

Yeah, walking in the spirit, every believer full of the Holy Spirit, every believer walking in their gifting, every believer feeling significant, feeling unified, feeling together. That's that's it's so beautiful what God has done. And this the same works, John 12, the same works that Jesus said, He's He said, The same works that I do, you shall do, and greater works than these shall you do. How is that possible that you could do greater works than Jesus? And now we've got hundreds of people going around thinking with the mind of Christ, walking with the power, the same spirit that that he had, walking with that authority. There's multiplied effects that two or three agree as touching any one thing. No wonder the enemy tries to make us not agree, because if we ever get out of agreement, we get out of our authority, we get out of our power. Um, but our unity is actually what our strength, where our strength comes from.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:41

Amen. Beautiful.

Listener Responses And Closing

SPEAKER_05 1:18:43

Man, we made it. That was a good episode. It got it was a little rough at first. We made it. Man, uh beautiful episode. Let us know how this episode has affected you. If you're watching on YouTube, comment down below. If you're listening on the podcast, wherever you're listening to, go ahead and send us in that fan mail. Click into the episode so that we can be in community with you, the body, as the listener. Uh, love and appreciate all you guys. See you next week.