Deeper Roots Podcast
We explore what it means to live a life rooted in Christ—beyond Sunday sermons.
Whether you’re planted in the church or still searching for your soil, Deeper Roots is your weekly reminder to stay grounded, ask better questions, and grow in the direction God is calling you.
Deeper Roots Podcast
Do I need to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?
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New York can barely handle the Knicks making the finals, and we start right there with the kind of sports talk that feels like the whole city is holding its breath. But that chaos quickly turns into a different kind of intensity when we read listener feedback and move into a topic that makes a lot of Christians nervous: the Trinity.
A comment we received pushed us to ask whether any analogy for Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is actually helpful or whether every attempt risks misleading people. We agree that all analogies fail if they pretend to “solve” God, yet we also wrestle with the real-life problem of teaching kids, discipling new believers, and having honest conversations at home. We keep coming back to a theme we can’t shake: there’s mystery in God, but there’s also an invitation to know him, to search, and to love God with our minds.
From there we go deeper into why the Trinity matters for daily Christian living and why salvation cannot be reduced to “how little do I need to know to get to heaven.” We talk about the Father’s will, the Son’s sacrifice, and the Holy Spirit’s presence, plus how “heresy” gets used too casually while real relationships hang in the balance. We push for fruit, humility, and love for the brethren, because arguing is not the same as edifying.
If this conversation hits a nerve, share it with a friend who loves theology or avoids it, then subscribe and leave a review. Where do you land on Trinity analogies, and how do you handle doctrinal disagreement with people you love?
Welcome To Deeper Roots
SPEAKER_01This is the Deeper Roots Podcast. We're four hosts talking about a range of topics from life to godliness. I got Chris, RJ, Pastor Jason, and myself, Zay, in New York. Let's go. Knickerbacher
Knicks Finals Hype And Predictions
SPEAKER_01is going to the finals. For the first time in like, what, 20, 20 something years? A while. That's not even 94.
SPEAKER_0494. That's crazy. That's been 30 years. I think you were right.
SPEAKER_02It was ewing. It couldn't have been 94 because the Bulls won. Three years in a row, I think. 93 through 96. It wasn't 91. 97. I think you were.
SPEAKER_01Because he went back to back 96, 97.
SPEAKER_0496, 97, 96.
SPEAKER_01And then they made it 99. 99.
SPEAKER_0099.
SPEAKER_04They make it 99.
SPEAKER_00And then 94. And they reached the finals, but the last time they won it was in 73. Wow.
SPEAKER_01Let me tell you something. If New York wins the finals, call the National Guard. Because it is going to be criminal activity. We're not even celebrating anymore. It's just crime. It's just debauchery. Sodom and Gomorrah. They're going to be going crazy. You see how they were acting just by getting in the finals? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Whole city shut down. I'm excited. I would like to see it happen.
SPEAKER_04There's a lot of that. Where does I I would rather have the conversation after the finals, but where does Brunson now rank as an all-time? A lot of those conversations now. He's gotta be top five. He's gotta be up there. He's gotta be up there. I mean, took him to the finals. I mean kind of a little bit of an easy trip. You know, the Cavs were that was a that was a pretty they had two two sweeps, didn't they?
SPEAKER_01Didn't they sweep two two teams? Or was it just the Cavs? Nah, they swept Philly and the Cavs. Yeah, so it's been a nice little walk in the park. Plenty of rest.
SPEAKER_00They made it a walk in the park. Like, I didn't think the East was that. I mean, you had Boston playing well.
SPEAKER_04Maybe they just made it look easy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I think I hope they I hope they win it all. I know it's gonna be some debauchery that happens if they do win it. But it's gonna be fun to watch. Like it's gonna be like a car accident.
SPEAKER_01Like you can't turn away for the next two weeks. Yeah. Yeah. Clips unlimited. Yeah. I'm definitely rooting for the Knicks. Yeah, me too.
SPEAKER_00I whoever.
SPEAKER_01I want to see a deep final series, but I want it to be against the Spurs. I would prefer that. I want it to be the Spurs and the Knicks.
SPEAKER_00I feel like San Antonio's they may turn it around tonight, but I feel like they're kind of running out of steam physically.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because of how young they are. And I mean, most of them haven't played full NBA season yet. And then you get full NBA season with the whole postseason on top of it with the kind of the fire and the fervency that goes into the postseason. Kind of felt like a few of them were running on fumes. And like the last game.
SPEAKER_01All their series have been kind of deep. Like six or seven games. So they they've had a hard road to get to this point right here. But I believe in Wim Bam Yama.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they you better get as many as you can right now. If the Knicks want one, they better get it right now. Because if Wimby ever finds out how to condition himself to go through this postseason and get kind of get a pace to the season, it's it's it's gonna be a wrap.
SPEAKER_02OKC is better suited for the Knicks. Uh Brunson, although much respect to Brunson, even when they took him to Dallas. I know a few Knicks fans that was like, who is this guy? I'm like, you didn't see what he did at Dallas? Yeah. Y'all just got a beast. Um, but at the same time, they're looking so good because the rest of the team is playing great as well. Like it's not just all on him. Because then they would have been more of a like a Detroit. Right. No, he had a really bad uh shooting night the other night, and they still pulled it off. The issue is are they gonna continue in the finals with that shooting ability? Because Cleveland defense is okay down low, but they're not a perimeter defense. And they only have uh Donovan Mitchell because I don't know who this beard dude is because he looked like somebody you picked up on Sunday morning playing against the Knicks, and nobody else showed up. Um so it's gonna be interesting. Atlanta, no disrespect to the Knicks. They made it look a lot easier than it should have. I definitely take my hats off to them. But I mean, the teams they did beat, we really didn't expect to be a threat anyway. I didn't expect Atlanta to be a threat. I didn't expect Philly to be a threat. Although when they beat Boston, I was like, okay, they might could do something with New York. But the question is, do they have enough energy to do something with New York? Luckily, this championship doesn't start to next Wednesday. So even if they do go to Saturday, both teams will get rest and it'll be different this time. And I think both teams have more depth to suit up with the Knicks. It's just the Spurs are less consistent than OKC because OKC got a few different weapons if Shea doesn't show up that can back him. Right. I don't think New York has enough weapons against one of them that they still could win if Brunson don't show up. I see what you mean.
SPEAKER_01I see. It it there's it's a pyramid in the Knicks and Brunson's at the top. And if he's not working, the whole thing crumbles.
SPEAKER_04I wonder how much of it depends on how the finals is officiated. Being that OKC is such a free throw heavy team. I feel like sometimes those finals are officiated a lot differently, you know, than the uh than the other games. They don't call quite as many of those fouls, and you know, this this gets hard to watch. Nobody wants to watch a free throw contest and just people falling on the floor every time. Every time they go up to court. This is how LeBron changed the game, bro. This is somebody else talking.
SPEAKER_00But to your point about Brunson's uh supporting cast, like he gave up. I didn't know it was this much. I knew it took a team-friendly deal, but he gave up $113 million like when it during the trade with Dallas to allow New York to so he didn't take the Max with Dallas to go uh free agency with New York that allowed them more flexibility to be able to add in the OGs and the um Mikhail Bridges and stuff like that. Outside of Brunson defensively, with Josh Hart, Mikhail Bridges, OG Cat, like that's a good defensive squad too. Like, so I like to your point about being a pyramid, I think if they lock down on defense, I'm the one I want to give the credit to, though, is Mike Brown, the coach for the Knicks. Yeah, because they made they made a tough decision last year by getting rid of Tom Thibodeau and then bringing Mike Brown in. But it seems, and he's had some rough patches through the year, everybody was questioning, but he seems to have them firing on all cylinders. They're rested, they're healthy, um, and I think that's the way he's managed the year. Uh and I've been rooting for him even when he was at Golden State before, and and I've rooted for him for a while. So I like to see him get one.
SPEAKER_01Yes, sir. We're gonna see what happens.
Listener Comment And How To Write In
SPEAKER_01And we'll be watching tonight for sure to see what happens to Wimby in the crew. Uh, speaking of the crew, for those listening and watching on YouTube, we appreciate you guys writing in and talking to us. We actually got a comment uh from Minjim on the YouTube. He says, love the podcast. Seeing you guys on video, hits different. Feels like I snuck into a private masterclass. Thanks for sharing. This is a masterclass. That's pretty cool. So if you're listening, go ahead and comment on YouTube down in the comment section. Um, that is not anonymous. We're gonna see exactly who you are. But if you want to submit an anonymous topic discussion or question or just a life thing, um, go ahead and type into the podcast, whatever podcast you're listening on, click into the episode and send us a text. Uh, let us know what's going on. You actually got uh episode review or commentary talking about it.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
Trinity Analogies And Why They Fail
SPEAKER_04Well, yeah, so um it interesting. So, you know, we did the um episode where we talked about the Trinity, right? So I got some feedback, which I appreciated, you know, um, because we did that, and then I made a post on TikTok, I think, where I talked, I uh talked about some of the analogies we use, and I said, are they helpful? Are they not helpful? You know, should we use analogies for the Trinity, that kind of thing. And um I had a guy message me actually from the the daddy dance team. Um he's a guy, he I think he went to I don't want to say it wrong, but he's got some sort of divinity degree and stuff. But he messaged me and he said, by the way, there are absolutely zero analogies that should be used for the Trinity. And I agree. I I don't disagree, but we went back and forth a little bit because he was saying, I forget some of the big words he used that I had to look up, but basically he was saying he prefers the thought of um counting it as this is this is a mystery, it's not something we're supposed to try to describe, this kind of thing. And but I said, okay, so if you're a teacher, um if you have children that ask you about the trinity, if you have a wife that asks you about a trinity. For example, my wife comes from a oneness apostolic background. Like you have to think of ways to help people understand while still keeping the understanding that this isn't, I'm not using this as saying this is an exact example of what the Trinity is. A one-to-one. But in some way, we have to say help people to the best of our ability to understand the Father, Son, and Spirit, the oneness, yet the the distinction while at the same time keeping this is not something we fully can grasp. There is definitely some mystery in it. But I feel like how do how do we how do we uh distinguish with the things that, hey, this is something we should dig deeper into and learn, but also at the same time keep there's definitely some mystery involved in understanding scripture and especially things like the Trinity, you know, and stuff like that, to where, okay, I'm not trying to um say that God is like ice cream or Neapolitan ice cream to be exact, or or the sun, or whatever the other um things are, but ways that we can help people hopefully um get them to grasp a little bit better understanding, you know what I mean? So we had a little bit of back and forth, and I affirmed him that I agree that none of these analogies capture what the Trinity is. But if we can push somebody towards understanding it a little bit better, shouldn't we do that? Yes.
SPEAKER_01That's a great thought. Because you're right. Go ahead. All all analogies fall short. So it's like how and I like your example of if I'm talking to my child or a child or somebody who's new in the faith that is a student, yeah, and I'm I'm in this moment coming across as a teacher, how do I do that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Uh your your uh mention, which was theological rooted, theologically rooted and so profound, uh, the verse that popped in my mind is uh came to my mind was uh Ephesians 3 and 19, where Paul is praying for the church. He says that they would know the love of Christ, which surpasses knowledge. And that's that verse has always kind of baffled me a little bit, that you would know something that surpasses knowledge. Yes, sir. And I think uh obviously it rooted in that whole context there in Ephesians 3, and and in this context with discussion around the Trinity, there is mystery there, but there's also an invitation to know. There's an invitation to search, to uh endeavor, to um discover. Uh, and and I think there's there's beauty in all of it. And I I think it would be, I agree that there is it, it's a metaphor or an analogy doesn't have to stand on all four feet, but it allows you to see through uh see a natural occurrence for something that has spiritual ramifications. And to explain spirit is it's is spirit and truth. That's uh uh when Jesus instructed the woman at the well on that's the way worship was, was in spirit and in truth. You can't define or contain or box spirit. Um, God is defined in the fact that he is self-defined, he defines himself. Uh, and that's that's sufficient. He has explained himself, defined himself in scripture accurately, sufficiently enough for us to believe the way that he defined and described himself. And then I don't think there's anything wrong with uh attempting to come up with the best natural ways of explaining something spiritual, which will never be complete, never be exactly uh uh the uh correct, but it at least does a way to explain something that's beyond our knowing. Um, so the desire for the knowledge, the seeking of the knowledge, best ways to explain it, that seems especially when you're teaching young kids. And I just thought as you were talking and thinking about your wife too, uh the trust that you have to be able to teach her and instruct her about the word of God. And and and at the end of it, knowing that we'll go as far as we can, and there'll still be a mystery to it, but we'll go as far as we we intellectually can and and um you know creatively can explain it or justify it. But Pastor, wow, you know what he does.
Loving God With Your Mind
SPEAKER_01Is it even important for us to even get into the Trinity? I believe in God. I I understand the Son and the Holy Spirit, sure. Yeah. I do I know how to articulate it? Not exactly. Do I think it matters? Does it actually matter to my daily walk to know the anatomy of Yahweh? Is that actually important to my daily walk in life? Like, can I just believe the Bible and that's enough?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04Well, I'd say one of the part of the uh greatest commandment is to also love God with your mind. Come on, man. Great answer. That's a great poll. Great answer. That's a great poll. So I think um in the one of the other most uh commands in the Bible is meditation. And I think um going going to those things, I think that the more uh somebody said that your heart can't love what your mind don't know. Um so I feel like that that with those things in mind, the more we can understand God, the more we can uh can see him and who he really is, the more we can love him, and the more that opens up. So like when we was getting into these conversations, I forget it came up several weeks, uh maybe I don't know, too long, not too long ago. And so I started diving in because I was like, I don't know if I'm great at explaining this, and so you know, you look up the scriptures that talk about the Godhead and this, you know, um the uh just some distinguishing factors of the Father, Son, and Spirit. I have some um a uh a systematics by Charles Hodge that I I went to the Trinity section, I read that. I was going back and forth between that, and I have another book, I think it's Thomas Watson, the A Body of Divinity, and he has a good Trinity section in there. And just in reading those, I mean, I was I was weeping on my couch, seeing things that I didn't understand before, and and understanding God, the Godhead, the Trinity, the Father, Son, and Spirit, and how they are unified and also distinct at the same time. And I mean, just in understanding that, not only was my mind, which anytime I read, you know, I pray like, Lord, I don't want to know something to know. I want to, I want to know you. I want this to not just grab my mind, but grab my heart. And in just reading, reading this and learning more, I mean, I'm sitting, I'm crying in tears. It's not like, it's not like a a surface level understanding. This, this is the Trinity is a foundation of our faith. This isn't this isn't eschatology, this isn't uh how Jesus is coming back, this isn't whether or not we should wear uh skirts or or pants. This is this is foundational uh about our faith. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it verse that came to my mind was Philippians 3, uh, when Paul said, uh, yet indeed I count all things lost for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus. Amen. And then he he goes on at the end of verse 10 that I may know him, the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings. You mentioned meditation, loving the Lord with your mind. Um, the the idea of knowing is is you if you love something, you desire to discover, you desire to pursue, you desire to um, and there is no greater pursuit than to know God. And that's just not in that just just not what he can do, what he can accomplish, or you know, certain things about scripture that you can impress your friends that I may know him as a person. And so there's a you you said that well, the fact that if there's knowledge for the sake of which is possible to puff up, to make arrogant, to to want to win in a debate, want to win um, you know, in an argument, all that knowledge produces arrogance. But knowledge that produces intimacy, that produces uh proximity, that produces closeness, uh, that's the invitation that God gives us. Know that we get to know him. How do we know him? There's a he's beyond knowing, but Paul prayed that they would they would know the love of Christ. And how do we do that? We with the scriptures that we have available, with the relationship that we have open to, with the access that we have to the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit that leads us, we invite him to teach us, and there is no greater subject than to teach us about God. Amen. Teach us God. Not and wisdom follows that. How we deal with people follows that, but at the foundation part of all of it is who is God and how do I know him? And I think it's really, we we've had this conversation before. I think if the the verse that you quoted that the New Testament picks up multiple times, that the greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, love your neighbor as yourself. John 17, the prayer of Jesus, that he prayed that the disciples would be one as he and the Father are one. If that's his prayer, the greatest commandment, love the Lord and love your neighbor. I think knowing the Trinity and how that, to use kind of a uh a word in the early church, the how that uh the patristics saw the the paraclaresis, how that all flowed together like a dance, the trinity, and how it fit together to know their oneness, the way that they uh honored one another, they uh they um the the way that they supplied uh for that the way it all flows together, the Father, Son, and Spirit, then and only then does it make sense for how we love one another. So we love the Lord, and then we love our neighbor, the more we know about how God in the Trinity, beyond our understanding, is loving, honoring, submissive, encouraging to one another, then do we get to do that to each other and in the body? Um, but there's no there's no way we can understand John 17. Become one, become unified, become uh Uh no vain ambition, no selfish ambition, no uh self selfish motive. The only way we learn that is by knowing God. Yes, sir. And knowing Him, we see how God operates, and then we're able to do that together as a body.
SPEAKER_01Amen. But, Pastor, I just need to know Jesus Christ and His Him crucified, accept the blood, accept his sacrifice, accept the redemption, and that's all I need to get to heaven. Does it actually matter if I believe in the Father and the Holy Spirit and all that stuff? Or do I just need the blood blot redemption to get to heaven? Do I need to know the inner workings of the hypostatic union and the relationship of the Father and so? No, the Old Testament talked about Jesus and pointing to his resurrection and burial. The New Testament talks about it. I believe in the blood. Don't really know about the Father. Don't really know about the Holy Spirit. Matter of fact, they all might just be the Father. But I do believe in the redemption of Jesus Christ. That's enough. That's a great start.
SPEAKER_04Wrong question. Okay. Yeah. To say, what little do I need of you to make it into heaven is not, I wouldn't say is the posture of someone who's been who's been uh bought with a price, pulled out of your sin and uh given new life that you didn't deserve. Now what little do I need to know? Um or is it how much can I learn? How how much can I feel this desire in my heart to know him and to know him better and to uh to be who he's called me to be and to, you know, um I mean I think that's I mean that would be my my main response to that follow-up.
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna be on your side today. I see both sides of what you said and what you said, right? Um as a new believer, like you said, a great start because you don't want to get caught up in, well, what did he really look like? And was he here, was he there? But at the end of the day, because the most important piece to you is does his blood do what he said it was meant to do? Yeah, and if you can grasp that, it carries you further. But at the same time, I see where you're coming from about just being enough. Because if you're in a relationship with someone, just being in a relationship enough to say you're in a relationship, but you don't really know much about them, then it's all about you. And a lot of times, if you're only about, well, did the blood work, then that now becomes a selfish ambition and it eliminates the ability to, like you said, Pastor Jason, to love others, to be able to walk in grace for others because you're not understanding the depth of what he or even the point of what he came in for, because then it would just be about you. Yeah, and it's not about your peers, it's not about anyone else, and they're being saved. That's why it's so easy for people to be like, God save me, but I want him to punish my enemies. Because they don't see that his relationship, the depth of it is for more than just you, it's for the whole world. Um, and I'll even be honest, because for a while I was like that because I didn't want to get caught up in the what I felt was senseless debates. Why are we sitting here arguing about all that? Like, what is it? Is it is God and Jesus the same? And even though that's been something that's been in my head and reading different scriptures and the Trinity and the Holy Spirit, but not knowing who they are, I think robs you of what they did for you.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And even you eliminate the a lot of times, people don't even consider the Holy Spirit and what the Holy Spirit, the comforter that he is here for you. So I can see like both sides of it. Um, and it's a dangerous, it's a slippery slope. But I think as you develop the relationship, as you read more, as you meditate, it opens up your senses to want to understand and you need to know. Like, I think it goes from you wanting to know to you need to know. Yeah, yeah. And God creates that desire in you as you read more, like, oh, going down that rabbit hole, this scripture goes to that scripture, that scripture leads you to this scripture, and then you can start to piece it together, which makes it just open up a whole thing of okay, God, you created this, you created me. Now, what is what is the rest of it for? What is the whole screen?
SPEAKER_01I can summarize what you're saying, so I'm seeing make sure I'm following here. So you're saying that as you continue to walk with God, you might start off with the salvation, redemption, blood bot. You might not know exactly how the Trinity works, but as you keep growing in your faith, you will have a necessity to figure out who is this God that I'm serving. Is that what you're saying? And it will open the door for you to understand the hypostatic union and all the big words.
SPEAKER_04And so, because if you if if it's if it's just we know about Jesus, and I'm a Jesus guy. Um who whose wrath were we satisfying? Why, why, what was the purpose of blood being shed? Do we know do we know any of that? How big of a deal is this thing that Jesus did for us? If we don't know the Father, we don't know the fullness of that. Also, who's indwelling us now? If we don't know anything about the Holy Spirit, when Jesus ascended, who did he send, who did he send to us? Who dwells in us now? And that same spirit that was in him is in us. So if we don't know the father and we don't know the spirit, then we don't know the fullness of what is taking place.
SPEAKER_02Well, wow, it's so important for him to be like me and my father are one, and I do nothing unless my father told me to, and all that. And when it says this is my son and whom I'm well pleased, like why is that even relevant if we're only focused on Jesus and nothing else beyond that?
SPEAKER_01So I'm gonna I'm gonna ask another question, but I'm gonna answer my own question because I want to jump in on this conversation. One
Heresy Fears And Staying In Relationship
SPEAKER_01step further. I've been a Christian for a long time. I am either oneness or I'm following some other what most would call heretical beliefs. I do believe in the Jesus, I do believe in his sacrifice, I do believe in his salvation, but Jesus is the Father and the Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit. Like that is just a very, I think outside of the Trinity, the second highest one, right? Under there is like a lot of people believe this. Where do I go from here? Am I okay? I do believe in the blood. My hot take scripture, that makes me a little uncomfortable because I do believe that some people are genuinely trying to be live a Christian life, and they do want to get to heaven. They are preaching these things. My uncomfortable hot take scripture is in Galatians 5, 19 to 21. Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentiousness, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, and then this next one comes me a long way because it says heresies. Then it continues envy, murders, drunkenness, and reverlies, and the like, of which I tell you beforehand, just as I told you in times past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. That feels really strong to put heresies right next to adultery and murder and sorcery and all that kind of stuff. And it makes me a little uncomfortable because I'm like, man, these people are trying their hardest, but then actively denying. I'm not talking about a new believer, I'm talking about somebody who's been been church, been my my friend, I'm talking about my friends here. Like I'm being vulnerable. I'm talking about the people that I love and care for. They just don't they they would be considered, from my worldview, heretical. And they might consider me heretical because I believe in the Trinity and I believe in the triune God. How do I continue to nurture and love this relationship? But then do I keep evangelizing to them? Like I'm stuck. This is a tough one for me. I'm actively having conversations just yesterday with my friends, and we're talking about these things, and I'm like, brother, I have so much love and connection with you, but I, through the biblical lens, through my purview, see it as heresy. And they're looking at me like, brother, you're committing heresy. And I'm like, we're we're trying to battle this thing out, and I'm stuck. This is a tough one.
SPEAKER_00I want to make mention really quick to the the question before that, too, which I think allows us to answer this one. You you you mentioned, am I saved and am I gonna go to heaven? And and I I I would love for us to rescue the idea of salvation beyond the Western idea of just making it to heaven. Amen. And because that's the that and and I mean no harm. I like like and I mean no harm, but that's that thought is very much true what you said. What's the what how can I sign a paper to make sure that my afterlife is secure? And I feel like that is that is the it's uh it's an anti-Christ. It is an anti, do I believe in heaven? Yes, I believe in heaven. Do I believe that there's a place prepared for us? Yes, that he is going to prepare. Yes, I do. But salvation is so much more than me just signing a paper to make sure that my after physical life is secure. Is uh, you know, the study of soteriology, the study of salvation, what does that mean? What are we saved from and what are we saved for? And we are not just saved for heaven, we're saved for the earth. We're saved to evangelize, to share, to witness, to live in such a way that presents an image of who Christ is in the earth. And I think that requires us then to not just, I believe in, I believe Jesus died for me. I'm on my way to heaven. Now I'm gonna sit here and wait for him to come rescue me out. I think salvation is such a bigger picture than me just sitting here waiting for him to come rescue me out. So then it does require us to know how am I gonna live a life that is in the image of Christ? I'm gonna have to know the Holy Spirit. How how how do I know how to pray? I'm gonna have to know who the Father is. And that now the and now it requires us on this side of heaven to know who God is. Is heaven prepared prepared for us? Yes, we're on our way there, but that's not that's not all the culmination of salvation. And so I think it it's in my opinion, there are, I have some dear friends. Probably my best friend in this world is uh is uh outside of my wife, is uh one is apostolic. So we've had debates for almost 20 years of of considerations of, and in my opinion, do I disagree with his interpretation of that text? Yes. But have uh or the text in general, yes. Do I have a different opinion? Yes. But have I seen the fruit of his life that is he loves the Lord, like he loves God with all of his heart, and there is nothing in him that wants to lead himself or others in a in a way that is destructive or hurtful or less than, and and I'll just speak for he and I. I think a lot of what we're saying is the exact same, is semantics. The language that he uses to describe it is different than the way that I use to describe it. That I'm gonna speak individually for him. Um, and then I know there are some that that completely go to a realm that is is I I think completely denying some of the true aspects of who God is. But my conversations with him, he does not seem to deny anything that I personally believe that feels like it is diminishing who God is at all. Um, so are my language, again, going back to the conversation, are we both looking at something that is past knowledge and trying our best to define it in a humble way, describing it as best we can? And I that's why I think salvation is more than just the doctrine that you sign to say, I've got all my doctrinal ducks in a row and I've got this figured out. It is the, it is the is so personal and so individual that it it goes down to the motive and intent of someone's heart, um, is what are they trying to get out of it? And if they are trying to do that to deceive, to trick, to destroy, to divide the body, to hurt the body, then yes, it can be, in my opinion, heretical. But if the if the heart, the motivation is, and if there's fruit that is coming from their life that bears witness with, they are a child of God. Um, I'm gonna continue to pray for that person. I'm in relationship with those people. Um, and and we are uh I don't want to allow the enemy to divide brothers who have a different opinion on something that is so important, but uh there is, I think there's a in my opinion, because I've been so close to it, that there is a purity in the way that that they that he sees it, and and hopefully there's a purity in the way that I see it as well. And that shouldn't divide us. Um and I again I'm speaking for him individually. Are there some camps that I could list them that are completely uh I don't think we can be in relationship with the way that they uh come to the conclusion about that, yes, but specifically uh he is is not one of those for me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think for me too, um winning an argument is not bringing someone to salvation. Yeah. And so there's part of me of just like, am I arguing for arguing's sake here at some point? At some point, this doesn't feel like edifying anymore. Knowledge does not edify. First Corinthians tells us that there is no edification in just gaining more knowledge. So if we're just knowledge for knowledge, intellectually fighting each other, we're not edifying each other. So then it's like, okay, Lord, help me to not want to see uh seed, water, and harvest all at the same time. But then also help me to walk with this person in a long-form journey or teach me some things. Maybe I'm the one in the learning process here, and this conversation is sharpening me in different ways, like trying not to control the situation and just be like, either shake the dust off my feet and you can drown if you want to. And then at the same time, not being too passive, and but just I think the scripture that I kind of I I love, but I interpret it wrong sometimes is be ready to give an answer. That does not mean be ready to argue with everything, you know what I mean? That just be ready to give an answer. So I'm just like, all right, I have to look back at Jesus and how he dealt with these things in the Pharisees and the Sadducees. And there were some times where he just disappeared in the crowd. And there are other times where he went flipping tables. But the the the relationship that I have to have with this is Holy Spirit lead me and guide me in this portion of the conversation today. Is today is the day I need to bring back up this conversation or take arms for the gospel of Christ? Or do I just need to show up in a loving way with somebody that we might not agree with? Um, it's been it's been a deep conversation for me. And like I said, dude, I have long text message threads with many people.
SPEAKER_02You know, I still think about I think Joshua when the angel came before him and he said, Who are you, whose side are you on? Mine, or my name said, I'm neither. And I think a lot of times for me that helped because in a conversation, am I having this conversation because I want you to convince, convince you to come to my side and I'm refusing to go to yours versus am I just having this conversation, like you said, to promote and point you more to Christ? Because at that point, then you're willing to shut up when you need to shut up. You're willing to say, you know what, I can see that, I understand, and then go in your prayer closet and be like, okay, God, show whoever's wrong the right thing that they need to be focused on when it comes to you and help me to understand and see. And if you want me to continue planting the seeds, I'll plant them. Like you said, I don't have to see it, I don't have to water, I don't have to see it, uh, the manifestation of it. I just want to make sure that I presented you to the best of my ability, and I didn't present my personal views and thoughts so that they would look like a me. Because I want them to look like you at the end of the day. And I even love what you were saying earlier, and I guess for me it was kind of a light bulb. For certain people, it's not everybody, but that with salvation, the difference of thinking, okay, I've done enough that I'm going to heaven, so therefore I'm a Christian. Yeah. And that's the end of the road. Verse, and that made, and I think that's why it's so easy for Christianity not to be a way of life and feel like you can turn it off and on because you already accomplished what you want to do, which is get into heaven because you're like, I accepted Christ, I did this, but now I don't have to do anything here on earth because me being saved is all about once I die.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And a lot of people will still continue to just maneuver. I'll tell you about Jesus, but it's not, I'm not letting it come in and change me now. I'm not letting it save me now. And even in being on earth, I'm still saved when I go through the things that are I feel are hell.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Because I don't dwell on those, I still focus on Christ. I still have the word here on earth, I still have peace that surpasses our understanding. I have a peace that's not like the world because I'm still focused on Christ now, not when it comes later down the road, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_04I would say, building off what you just said, which was awesome, if there was no afterlife, God would still be worth living for as long as we're alive. If there was no heaven, if there was no eternity uh full of joy, it would still be worth living for God in this day and time. And building off of what you said, the first, the first part of what you said, um that's why I appreciated the feedback that I got um recently because it made me look and think about it. I was like, did I say something out of, you know, out of a wrong heart or out of, you know, that could have led people uh a different way, or did I overstep and trying to explain things? Or, you know, and I think that that type of uh of of thinking is good for people who sit on a podcast or or teach from a pulpit or lead a group, or it's like what am I saying things to to help or am I hurting? Am I talking just to just to fill time uh because that came in my mind, or or do I have a you know a real uh desire to help people know him, you know? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00This this helps us so much about what Christianity is. And we make the statement because it's cliche that Christianity is not a religion, it's it's relationship. And and but I I I think that's an important statement to make in this conversation because salvation is not an agreement to a list of creeds, not an agreement to a list of doctrinal uh, you know, statements. It is the relationship with the person. And that that's why Christianity, in my opinion, is so different. And it are there, you know, you know, James uses the word religion, pure and undefiled religion, but why that Christianity, in my opinion, is anti every other religious system because it is not a and that's why I think sometimes with Christianity, our arguing over in, you know, in my opinion, vain things that that that really aren't accomplishing anything. They're not they're not taking us anywhere because there's the our relationship with the Lord should cause us to know him, of course, not denouncing knowledge, but that is so much deeper than, and I'm I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be hurtful with this, but agreeing with everyone in your denomination about a statement, or agreeing with everyone in your organization, or uh I just think Christianity is so much deeper than that. And that and and why, and when I say this, I don't, I'm not watering down Christianity. It sh it it is actually lifting up Christianity to say where Jesus when when John makes a statement that they will know that we have passed from death to life because we love the brethren. That that was the that was for Jesus, that was his statement, and then John, that was his statement, that they will know that we are not like anyone else because of how much we love one another. That is because you can agree with doctrinal, denominational, uh, a whole handbook, a whole manual on what I'm supposed to believe. And you can agree with that, and nobody knows or see the fruit from your life that is no fruit that uh mainly love being the production uh that is coming from your life. And John was so clear that if you're in relationship with Jesus, the way that you'll live is by loving. Um, and and I I think that's why Christianity is. Sets completely against every other religion because it's abnormal in that regard. Are there things that we need to know? We look at Acts chapter 15 when they had a disagreement in the in in the um in the early church as to whether or not they should circumcise or not. They came together and they made an agreement and they chose to not to divide over a physical expression. So it the circumcision does not save at all. And they made that decision in Acts chapter 15. And they made to take away all the uh legalistic bondage of what it means to outwardly be a Christian. And they removed that. And again, not that it means that that Christianity is watered down, that now everybody can be a part. In fact, it lifts it up because anybody, even if you don't believe in Jesus, you can be circumcised and you can look the part.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But it lifts the standard up to say it doesn't matter what your physical body, what looks like in your physical body, now I'm telling you that to walk with the Lord, to be in relationship with the Lord, to bear fruit, is going to require us to submit ourselves, to know the Lord, uh, to know uh who God is, and then love our neighbor as ourself. And that only then when we do that well. And 1 Corinthians 13 tells us that there's a lot of ways to fake love too. But when you see love that is patient, love that is kind, love that is long-suffering, when you see those things in practice, you know that it did not come from a natural person, it came from the Spirit of God. They might not have all the T's crossed and all the I's dotted, but they are in relationship with God and God is teaching them. Um, and I think there should be some patience that's that's given to those people.
SPEAKER_01That's very powerful.
Reading Scripture As Relationship
SPEAKER_01Uh I was reading something that said a lot of times people won't remember every word you said, but they will remember how you made them feel. So, like to your point, regardless if you agree or disagree on some of these things, that I still show you love and grace. Because that's how you are drawn to Christ is strictly through the love and the grace, not necessarily knowledge and intellect.
SPEAKER_02And I think from from a perspective point of how you even approach Christianity and even the way you read your word. For so many years, I read the word as what do I have to do to get this or what shouldn't I do to be there? But rethinking if it's a relationship, God just was showing me through other people's lives how He's still there.
SPEAKER_00So good.
SPEAKER_02The master plan of regardless of if you mess up, I'm still here. And even if you do mess up and get lost in the way, I will then give you instruction to pull you back to me. And when you can't figure it out, I'll send another way to get to you. Like all the, and I'm not saying that because wise counsel, you still don't do certain things you know and realize because I seen my father do it or I seen a friend do it. I don't need to do that because I see where it ends up. But at the end of the day, if I'm looking at the relationship, then I start to be like, dang, even with all David did, God still showed up. He showed up to tell him he was wrong, and then he even replaced the son that he lost. That's good. Even with Adam and Eve, I know it wasn't their fault, but when Cain killed Abel, he still gave him another son, Seth. Don't that mean like replacement or something like that, his name? So like God just being there throughout with Moses, even with Moses fighting or or arguing with God about what he could do and what how he could use them, he still was there for him. He still provided some, okay. Well, you feel you can't, I'm still gonna do it, but I'm just gonna have your brother to come along and do the part that you feel you're unworthy to do. Like, but just building and continually coming along, even with Paul, I mean, Saul before he became Paul, how he was on the wrong road, but he still showed up to correct him because he was like, You may think you're doing something for me right now, but you're really not. So let me go ahead. And even though you're not gonna slide from this punishment, but at the end of the day, let me correct you because I know your heart is trying to be in the right place. You just haven't seen it yet because of your head knowledge. So, like, even just the way I see the Bible has changed because of the relationship. Like, okay, how do I find God in these moments? How do I start to look for him? Versus me always feeling like, oh, well, if I just do this, God's got to do that, and he's gonna be here because then it almost feels like I'm the one that's in authority and have all power. Yeah, and I can control him in that manner. I just think he's a man of his word, that he honors his word, which he tells you that his word will not come back to him, null and void, and it shall do whatever he sent it to do, not what I sent it to do, what he sent it to do. So, but that's just talking about that, the standpoint of view that had me thinking about how you even read the Bible could affect you differently.
SPEAKER_00Scripture was written, I and I think that the word of God teaches us what God wants to know about himself, and he didn't release to us 613 commandments in the New Testament to say, This is what I want you to be to be righteous. He he the most of the book is are stories. They are even in the New Testament, like the the life of Jesus is told in a narrative because there's feeling with it, there's emotion with it. It's a person that you're dealing with, not just, hey, this is what I want you to go do. It's revealing himself and circle all you know, full circle all the way back to that we would know him, not just know what he requires, but know him as a person. I thought you had something to it.
SPEAKER_02It made me think of a comment. Like when you first met your wife, when you first were talking to your wife or anybody's dating, when you first meet them, you have a list of rules. Yeah, you have a list of things because you're getting to know them that they're describing themselves, that they're telling you. But once you spend enough time with them, you don't need that list of rules no more to understand how they operate and how they maneuver what they would like, what they wouldn't like. But most people haven't spent enough time with God to get to that point that they're still looking for the rules to constantly be the same, but you start to know and understand his presence and feel them in a different way. And I'm about to go on attention, so I'm gonna stop right here.
SPEAKER_01Save for the next pod. Wow. Amazing episode. We hope you guys enjoyed it. How do you feel about this Trinity conversation? What other conversations like you're having in your life and in your world? Uh, are we heretical? Question mark? Talk about it.
SPEAKER_04I don't know. That might be another episode. I I do feel like we throw the word around a little loosely these days. Heresy. Heretical. Yeah, and it might be you.
SPEAKER_01But right as it right into the pod, let us know what you think. Topics you have are things that are completely different than what we talked about.
SPEAKER_02From you. I'm with a black though. Like, I did not get the memo. You got a black hat? I got a black hat, but still feels odd. He number one of us. Thank you for listening.