Shawn Harris on the Creative Process & Bizarro Torah (INTERVIEW)

Get to know Kehillah member Shawn Harris as we discuss the life of a creative person, her big moves from the west back to Richmond, the power of imagination, storytelling and world building.

Learn more about her project Bizarro Torah: https://bizarrotorah.wordpress.com/

This is part of a series of interviews with Kehillah members including Lori Levy and her parents, Arianna Rose, and Rebbetzin Stefanie. Want to be interviewed? Send us fan mail.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:02

I'm Rabbi Patrick and welcome to Kihila. So I was trying to figure out the first time I met you. Do you remember when that was? Um it was shortly after Rabbi Romer passed. That's where I thought. Did I did I meet you at his funeral? Probably. I think so, because I I think I remember um being at Bliley's and yeah, and like you coming up to me and introducing yourself and all that. But it was it was one of those, like, it's not a hang, right? It's not a time that you really talk. Um but yeah, wow, gosh, that was forever ago. Um, that feels like a whole lifetime ago. Um, and you've certainly had a lot of adventures since then.

SPEAKER_03: 0:46

That's one way we were putting it.

SPEAKER_01: 0:48

Yeah, I think so. I think so. Um, yeah, and you just got back from you know a gig out west, and now you're here in Richmond. So what's been going on with you? What have you been working on?

SPEAKER_03: 1:00

Working on work for the most part. Um, just having a steady income. There's also the um, of course, with bizarre tour with that, uh starting to put out my feelers for that. Um, I've got some pretty interesting things lined up. Um I'm gonna be at the uh queer juice of color chavaton with Cashette coming out in February.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 1:23

And I know like everybody's on vacation and and like their budget's already spent by now, so I'm like, um it's that weird wait and see thing where it's like okay, you need to put in you need to put the bug in their ear in a very timely way, but you also have to make sure that they're there to do it. Yeah. So it's like, okay.

SPEAKER_01: 1:49

Alright. Yeah. So, okay, so that's so that's in February. What's that gonna be like?

SPEAKER_03: 1:56

Um, it's gonna be at Pearlstone, uh, up there in uh Maryland, not too far from Baltimore. I've been to that place like a million times, so it's like it's almost like a weekend, like a staying older grandparents for the weekend kind of situation for me. But um it's gonna be nice. Um, I'm gonna be um leading a well, I like I say role-playing session, but I think I'm gonna start calling it a storytelling game session.

SPEAKER_01: 2:22

Um so that reminds me a little bit of that word wheel uh and uh I'm sorry, I'm forgetting the name of it that you gave me. Uh Word Wheel and Woe, which I thought was so cool. I really liked that. And I I've I feel like I haven't had a chance to even tell you that um how much I liked that.

SPEAKER_03: 2:40

Oh, cool, thank you. Yeah, that was uh yeah, I almost forgot. Yeah, I'm always designing games and stuff, dear listener. So I I forget what games I actually design sometimes.

SPEAKER_02: 2:53

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03: 2:54

Oh yeah, oh yeah, I designed that. So yeah, um, I'm glad you liked it. It's um it's not one of those overtly Jewish games, but it's got a certain Jewish theme in it, which is the power of words. Create reality. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 3:11

Yeah. It's there. So yeah, that's the whole um that's the whole thing about how Adbra Kadabra is Aramaic and it's you know, by my words, right? I create. Um, that's incredible. So like what are you into games? Because that's like a thing you're really into.

SPEAKER_03: 3:31

Um, I guess I might be one of those closeted theater kids who never got a chance to be on in on stage. Oh wow. Miss my shot to be in Braun Broadway. Nice. It's like so. I'm like, well, I like the performative aspect of it. Yes, I like the storytelling. And just so uh, you know, I'm also a playwright because I like the the shared imagined space of it all.

SPEAKER_01: 3:56

Uh-huh. And shared say that one more time, because that was really cool. The shared imaginative space of it all.

SPEAKER_03: 4:03

Yeah, shared imagined space. It's it's not even my imagined, okay. Yeah, it's not even my term. It's the it's like now that role-playing is about 50-ish years old as a hobby, we're starting to get like people going to school to study. And the term that's called like the shared imagined space, which is like how everybody who's participating imagines what's happening. You know, as a collector.

SPEAKER_02: 4:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 4:30

And yeah, and that that aspect of it was always like there. Um and I like the aspect of being able to pretend to be other people. I never outgrew my uh I never outgrew my desire to play pretend.

SPEAKER_01: 4:46

Oh wow, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_03: 4:48

So it's so it's like, and so if it involves like elves or um magic and or um vampires, werewolves, or like monsters and and things like that, and trying on those different identities and trying on those different um experiences. I'm you I'm I so there.

SPEAKER_01: 5:11

Um wow, yeah, it is it is an amazing idea. Um, I've talked about this a few times in different contexts, that the universe gave birth to the ability to imagine, right? Like the very idea that we can create alternate realities in our mind, for better or for worse. Um and that we can kind of live in some capacity in these other parts of ourselves or these imagined spaces. Um, it's truly like it's a really magical thing on some level. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It it's really cool to think that that's something that you know that you're trying to manifest in this world, right? Like more of those imagined spaces.

SPEAKER_03: 5:58

Yeah, I I think so. Um to me, well, it's almost like I guess for me, and this is probably my own shortcoming here, is that it's comes to me so easily that I take it for granted. And then I don't realize that other people are not built the same. So when I see people struggle with it, I'm like, what do you mean? Don't you play pretend?

SPEAKER_01: 6:22

Right. So where what context do you see people struggling with that?

SPEAKER_03: 6:26

Um, I'm gonna be honest, it's often grown-ups.

SPEAKER_01: 6:30

Um so you wouldn't put yourself in the grown-up category.

SPEAKER_03: 6:35

I've been trying not to, but my birth certificate says otherwise.

SPEAKER_00: 6:39

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 6:40

Um the like the like grown-ups, especially grown-ups who are in fields where imagination and play are not encouraged, especially if they don't come from a theater background or come from a long history of role-playing. So, like, there are a lot of like engineers and computer programmers in the hobby, but they've been doing it since they were like 12. So they're used to that trying on different identities and being bold and outrageous and expressive. But other people might find like there's that inner critic and that inhibition and that thing that says, I don't know, this looks silly, or I don't know if this is a good idea. Oh, I'm not clever like the people like like the Hollywood people who get paid to do this. I'm not sure if this is uh the right way to do it when not having a right way to do it is kind of the point. Right. But people are really kind of um when they realize the the freedom available to them, they can get like really stuck and very paralyzed by it.

SPEAKER_01: 7:48

So, where do you, when you think about this idea of like the right way to do it and people being, like you said, stuck and paralyzed? How does that work for you when you then connect that with something like Judaism, where there is this very ritual component and there's halakha and there's all of these things that, um, for lack of a better word, like they create the lines on the coloring page. And then when you're a creative person, the perception of a creative person is that's someone who doesn't want to be boxed in, that doesn't want lines on the paper to color in. They want to paint the wall if they want to. How does that work for you?

SPEAKER_03: 8:24

I exist intention. That's pretty much the most Jewish space to exist in. Um the there's uh part of me, there's like um when I was on that episode of Judaism and Bowlers, I had that part of me where it's like on the one hand, it's like I want to not have dots at all. I want to instead of connecting them for me. I want to make my own shapes and make my own pictures and do my own thing and really push boundaries as much as I can. But on the other hand, and this I come as a surprise to some people, constraints can spark creativity. Oh, sure. Like when I was doing theater, like nothing got me nothing got me so some of my best ideas came out of sheer desperation because I had some hard limits I had to work around.

SPEAKER_01: 9:20

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 9:21

Okay, well my budget's only so much, so I can't recreate a beach on the stage, or I only have so much time, so I can't um do this sort of fantastical transition scene or whatever. So it's like, okay, so how do I give the sense of XYZ within these very strict limits I'm dealing with because theater is real people in real space with real materials, so so I can't just ignore physics, for instance.

SPEAKER_01: 9:53

Yeah, yeah. No, I'm with you. There's uh there's a famous quote. I actually had to look it up um so that I could remember. Um, the enemy of art is the absence of limitation. And uh that's the that's an Orson Wells quote, apparently. Um I had heard I had heard that in my music days, and I couldn't remember um where that comes from. And it it's true, like I remember, I mean, that's gonna sound kind of terrible, and I'm I'm admitting something that I'm almost embarrassed by, but I feel like creatively, some of the best work I ever did was when I had jobs I hated, or when I, you know, when I would do something, and maybe I didn't hate my job, but somewhere that well, sometimes I hated my job, but like things where I would go to something and I would do the job. And sometimes it was fun, and sometimes you enjoyed yourself, and sometimes you got to be creative, and then other times you're just kind of going along with whatever you gotta do. And then you come home and there's the art studio, or there's the recording studio in your basement, um, or there's, you know, a bunch of people around that you can make something with, and not having the opportunity to express yourself um then gives you whatever that wellspring of creativity and emotion is, um, that then you can go into another place, uh, whether it's an actual physical place or even your imagination, and you can come up with something spectacular. And now every moment of my life I'm having to create something. That's kind of the gig. Um, and and I feel like actually I'm less creative now than I used to be because I don't I don't have those, I don't have those times where I go and have to be bored and then go home and make something. The the right those moments are fewer and fewer in terms of like what I do all day. Right. I don't know. Yeah, what a wonderful problem to have. Um, you know, you I I and you know what? That's why I'm embarrassed to admit it, because it it sounds like like poor little rich girl type of uh type of thing, but it's frustrating because you know you're never going to, at least not in a particular part of creativity, you're never gonna reach those heights. Like you're you're kind of done. The best, like I was talking to Ariana a few minutes ago. We were talking about music, and I didn't say this to her, but I it popped in my mind, I will never write good music ever again. Like it just will never, like it will never come out of me. I'll never be able to do the things creatively in that part of life that I did when I was 21. It it evaporated, and it's like a really sad, like I almost had to like say cottish for that part of my creative life.

SPEAKER_03: 12:38

Yeah, it's I don't well, I I think I see what you mean. Um, I that's not been my experience, but then again, I haven't had that opportunity to make it my full-time thing.

SPEAKER_02: 12:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 12:50

So it remains to be seen for me if like the same thing's gonna happen. But at the same time, hopefully it doesn't. Maybe not. Maybe it's just like finally a a place to put all this. Um yeah, because it it I I I guess I have to kind of confess this. And you have your confession, Megan, I have mine too. Go for it.

SPEAKER_00: 13:11

Let's do this.

SPEAKER_03: 13:13

I can't handle that. I really can't. You can't handle what? The I because right now I'm working a seasonal job and it's sure a job. Yeah. It's not it's not toxic, it's there's nothing wrong with it. It's actually you know, it's not exactly curing cancer work, but okay, I do something and it has a tangible effect, and I get to, you know, use my hands and but like I'm not engaging my creativity in any way. Right, right. And my God, I am creating solutions to problems that don't exist. It's it it is and I must it must kind of like confuse and or annoy my coworkers when I do it, but it's like I don't know enough about them to know if they are themselves are creative people. But like I'm like, y'all, if I don't do something with this, it will turn toxic so fast it'll make your head spin. And like I need an outlet for it. It's because I think this is probably where I can say I'm built different, and I hate saying it like this. It is not a bragging thing, it has caused me a lot of problems when it comes to my ability to say follow a specific career trajectory.

SPEAKER_01: 14:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 14:36

Like if I don't have that creative outlet, it and I my need for one is huge. Okay, I'm not using it, it I I don't function properly. I really don't. I really, I really don't.

SPEAKER_01: 14:50

Do you feel like you have at least some of that outside of work life? Like, are you able to sort of go back to where you are and and whatever your process is, are you able to like go to that place mentally?

SPEAKER_03: 15:03

Yes. Um on weekends when I'm on my days off, and like sometimes like before I go to bed, but everything's closed in and I can't share with people like talking about. But um it's and then of course, like on weekends or whatever, it's like uh okay, I'm kind of tired. I need to focus on the stuff that I can do, like the quick stuff I can do. Um and there's also like finishing things I have to get into that habit to, yeah, um and really overcome my perfectionist tendencies about that. Um, but yeah, it's it it's like I have the weekend outlet. I I I'm not that person who can do 60 hours of working a week at a humdrum kind of situation. I yeah, I can't do it. Uh for those who are able to, my hat is off, especially to people in the healthcare field, especially the nurses who do the pee poop and puke stuff. I not for me, hats off because that is we need those. We need that always. Yeah, yeah, good. You do that because I can't, especially not on my feet all day.

SPEAKER_01: 16:16

So no, I listen, I'm with you. Like, I gave up, you know, these are things I don't talk about with people, but I gave up opportunities in different careers um because of that. Like, I am not a cubicle guy. And you know, we used to joke um there was a time where I was employed but a little bit underemployed. And um, did you ever watch the show King of the Hill? A few episodes. Okay, so there's this one episode where um Dale, who's the exterminator guy, he gets a job in like a corporate office. And the name of the office, the name of the company is StickCo. And he wants to wear his hat. Like that's part of his the character as he wears this like orange hat, I think it is. And the HR woman keeps saying there are no hats at StickCo. And so this became a thing in our household where I would be applying for jobs that were not at all related to Judaism or anything that I'm sort of known for. And I I wouldn't get the job or the, you know, I even wasn't even getting interviews. And I would keep saying because I was so upset with not being able to find something where I could be kind of creative and in the things you're talking about. And um, I kept saying, Well, yeah, so how did it go today, Patrick? Well, there are no hats at StickCo. And I kept saying this over and over again to the point now that I think Rabbitson has PTSD from hearing me say, like, there are no hats at Stick Co., there are no hats at StickCo as a way of saying, like, I'm really not finding what is me and feeling like I'm not, there's no place for me in this world. And that's uh that was like a terrible feeling that I wasn't even sort of quote unquote good enough for the cubicle, right? Right. And so there are times when I was kind of going through that where I would think back on like, man, like I wish I had taken those opportunities to be a different kind of person and to have a different kind of life. But Gamzula Tova, like now I'm where I want to be. It just took 42 years to accomplish it.

SPEAKER_03: 18:23

Yeah. I think I might be right behind you in another 10, 15 years.

SPEAKER_01: 18:27

Yeah, it could be. Yeah, it could be. There's um, there's a really great um author named Rob Bell. And I I kind of thought about you a little bit when I was listening to him. He did a Patreon series, um, and I forget what the name of it was. It's like his Patreon. Um, and he talks about how he's sort of known for being a person who was able to make a living as a creative, and he bounced around from like being um, he was a pastor at one point, and then he became an author. And then I guess he was too progressive in his religion. And so then he lost his audience and whatever. And so he write he did this series, it's like nine hours long, where all he talks about is making a living as a creative. And um, you know, one of the things he talks about is that, you know, there's a lot of different ways of approaching it. So for some people, it's going to be you do the creative thing all day. And then for other people, it's you find the thing that takes nothing from you, and you do that and you see it as a gift. That like you have the gift of like going to this nine to five job or this work site or whatever, and it asks nothing of you, and you hold back all of your intellect and you hold back all of your emotion, and you just kind of laugh all the way to the bank, and then you go home and paint or draw or write stories or whatever your thing is. It's like that's that's actually like that's easy to say, but it's hard to do. Like it's hard to do that in the moment and to see it that way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 20:03

Um, it reminds me of something um this career coach, I think her name is Jenny Clark, okay, was saying about like, well, everybody has a narrative about work.

SPEAKER_01: 20:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 20:14

And for some people, like work is a mission. So if they live to work in a sort of way.

SPEAKER_01: 20:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 20:22

Um, so for some people, work is an anchor, which is a way to structure their time and their day. And it doesn't really matter how you do it, it just matters that it's there. Right. Okay. And for some people, work is just like a means to an end. It's just purely transactional, whether it's for money or for status or what have you.

SPEAKER_02: 20:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 20:41

And then they're kind of like, can take it or leave it as far as the job. Sure, sure. And it's like, okay. And I had to make peace with the fact that I'm one of those people who wants to be married to their work.

SPEAKER_01: 20:55

Oh, wow. Okay. You want to be married to your work, but that's just not where you're at right now. Right. Wow.

SPEAKER_03: 21:01

The the the the right partner has it come along.

SPEAKER_01: 21:05

You're looking for a what's the shit for creative? Wow, that's a good way of looking at it. The right way to go. I haven't found my Beshark yet. Okay. But you know what? It's so true though, when you live an artist's life. And I I don't think people who who know me like know Rabbi Patrick and don't know any of my past and don't know any of the work that I did, like you do, you know, the the kind of life that I lived before this life. And it it really is. I I had a wedding the other day, and all of the money that is made from life cycle events goes to Kahila. I don't keep it myself. Um, and in return, you know, I'm I'm paid a salary. Um, but uh, you know, I was at this wedding and I was coming home from it, and I'm wearing this like uh navy blue suit and you know, these brown leather shoes, and I'm I'm looking at myself in the mirror and I'm like, I don't know who that guy is. Because I'm thinking about back in the day, like being in music and art and you know, when people see me around the house, I'm just wearing solid black, you know. Um, but then I realized like this this creative outlet that I have of of writing these wedding ceremonies and getting to be with couples and um going to these different places, it it is the band. Like it is the punk band. You know, you show like the last wedding I had, I set up the hoppa for them because that's something that Kahila does now. And I made their ktuba. And it's like, yeah, I I would have never thought when I was 21 or 22 and living in a Dodge conversion van and trying to make a go of it in punk rock that no, actually the DIY show that you need to do is being a rabbi. Like, yeah, but it really it it it is a comparable, what do they call it in in like HR? A comparable no transferable skill. Yeah, it's a transferable skill. It's a transferable skill, yeah. So yeah, so like what if you could envision what you would be doing all day, what what would that be? Would you be mostly focused on the game writing? Would it be playwright stuff? Probably the game stuff.

SPEAKER_02: 23:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 23:18

And I and I um uh I I asked ChatGPT.

SPEAKER_01: 23:24

Okay. Uh-oh, boo, chat GPT, you're a creative person. You're supposed to hate ChatGPT.

SPEAKER_03: 23:30

I'm supposed to hate it, but it I try it tried to write something for me. I was like, but is this garbage?

SPEAKER_01: 23:36

Right. No, it no, it totally is. It can't write creatively. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 23:40

No, no, thank you. You can you can save that chat GPT.

SPEAKER_01: 23:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 23:44

Uh so I said, okay, ChatGPT. And I put in like I did, I was paranoid enough not to put in specifics for like locations and my names, but like I put in my resume. Okay. And and I said, okay, this is what I want to get paid to do. And after some back and forth, I said, actually, what I want to do is storytelling games on demand.

SPEAKER_01: 24:09

Storytelling games on command. Okay, so what is that? On demand. Okay, what's what's that like? What would that be?

SPEAKER_03: 24:16

Well, the way I see it, these organizations, they can be corporations, they can be nonprofits, they can be museums, schools, and what have you. They say, okay, we need a hands-on immersive experience for two hours. We need someone to come in for about a couple of hours to lead this, and these are the ideas we want to like teach or explore. And I want you to make a game around it.

SPEAKER_01: 24:44

Wow, okay. And I do it. You know, like who you really should talk to about this, because I think he would be, he would pick up what you're putting down. Is um talk to Avi Calhoun and um he does uh Peace With, and um he was at I think was it Yom Kippur? Yeah, he did Yom Kippur with us and he led some meditation and stuff like that. Um and he's a really interesting creative um who might have a lot to offer to that because that's a really neat idea. He does um, I'm not gonna claim to fully understand what he does, but he does some stuff with like companies and nonprofits and whatever that are trying to deal with different kinds of issues, and it's kind of coaching, but from this very creative approach. Um, I could easily see you plugging into something like that. Like some organization needs you and you can kind of reorient them using games. Like that's a really that's a really cool idea.

SPEAKER_03: 25:45

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it's just now I have to like approach people and talk to them and do all that anti-introvert stuff that like you talked about the last episode, where it's like, oh, I want to be at home. They should be coming to me. I should not have to exert any effort whatsoever. Yeah, it doesn't work that way. Doesn't work that way. I want it and I should have it because I want it.

SPEAKER_01: 26:07

Yeah, totally doesn't work that way.

SPEAKER_03: 26:11

Like, no, but yeah, um, and the way I was seeing it, like if Chat GPT really puffed me up here. It's amazing at that. I'm like, I know.

SPEAKER_01: 26:20

Oh, yeah, it's such a sycophant. It's such a sycophant. I've never I've never had someone love me more in my life than ChatGPT. Oh my god. It just is convinced you can do uh anything, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 26:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:34

There's a South Park episode recently where one of the characters tries to prove how nonsense Chat GPT is, and she says, Hey ChatGPT, I'm uh interested in making a salad out of French fries. And uh the ChatGPT reads back, what a clever idea, or something like that. I'm like, Yeah, this is so dumb. That's so true.

SPEAKER_03: 26:55

It's wonderful. So it's a very it's a very ignorant yet is somehow well informed yet ignorant. Well informed full of documents and it loves you.

SPEAKER_01: 27:07

Yeah, yeah. That's the worst thing for well, it goes back to the limitation thing, right? That as a creative person, one of the things you need, well, you like Sean, but all of us, is you need someone or something to say no. Um, whether you like that or not. Like you like, it is great that Kahila has a board of directors and that that board of directors says no. Because the dumbest things that I would have gotten us into, like the the most to use your word bizarro, like the most bizarro things that Kehila would do, I mean, I would be working at McDonald's to try to make us more money so that we could pay off the dumb ideas that I've had. Um, because it is it is kind of helpful.

SPEAKER_03: 27:53

Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, okay. Um and also it's like my aside from that, it's like my problem is it hasn't always it did in a real sort of way, Chat GPT has helped me.

SPEAKER_02: 28:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 28:05

That it and now we are veering toward AI, now we have that whole ethical. Let's do it. Let's bring it. Where it helped me think bigger about um the things that it's good at. Okay. Like the compiling of the info and kind of synthesizing it when you but you have to tell it exactly the kind of output you want. And that requires like a certain precision of language that if you don't have it or if you don't put it in there, you do not expect it to come out.

SPEAKER_01: 28:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 28:37

But um the way it can is it really helped me think bigger about um what I was like, I have a maddening tendency, is like you would think that a lot of artists are uh, shall we say, arrogant geniuses.

SPEAKER_01: 28:56

Yeah, I mean that's the stereotype, sure.

SPEAKER_03: 28:59

Yeah, and I'm not. I I don't it's like I have an artistic temperament. I have a bucket loads of creativity that needs an outlet for me to function properly, and that is not me bragging about it. Like I said, it's not me bragging because sometimes in life that gets in the way. Right, right. It really does, and and it kind of so it's like managing something like I don't want to call it a mental illness or like a disability, it's not because I consider it a gift, but it's kind of like being on the spectrum or being ADHD. Okay, where there's so much going on internally that and the world isn't built for that. Oh wow. So you have to manage around it in some way. It it is a thing I have to actively think about, and a thing I have to actively be mindful of. It's like, okay, could I get that? Amazon warehouse job, probably. Right, right. The um scandals involving workplace safety notwithstanding. Is it really something I can see myself doing for more than like a season? And his answer is hell no. Hell no. I probably I would go stir crazy before that. And um that's the great thing about like being involved, like community, like this this thing that I'm doing. It's me man, it's sort of like me managing something that will be a weakness most of the time and trying to turn it into like a strength that sustains me. But going back to ChatGPT and the horror, harbor, chat GPT, horror, harbor AI, I know. Yeah. Um the So it had it was great at synthesizing like a lot of information, especially involving uh shall we say, alternative quasi-spiritual practices. Okay. Sure. That that I'm not gonna get into detail there.

SPEAKER_01: 31:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 31:05

And the thing that kept cropping up is that it's Sean, you need to be involved in relationship work. You need to be involved in work where like your creativity is is so inspiring when people see it. And I know for a fact, and the thing is it wasn't telling me things I one didn't already know. Because people tell me that when they experience these things that I do, it's amazing for them and they love it. And I'm like, why don't I do this more often?

SPEAKER_02: 31:35

Wow.

SPEAKER_03: 31:35

Yeah, so uh so I don't know. It's just something I do, like I said, I take it for granted all the time.

SPEAKER_02: 31:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 31:41

And and it kind of got me, it it delayed what could have been something I could have been doing all along.

SPEAKER_01: 31:47

Wow. Okay, okay. So so you can use Chat GPT as a as a partner when you understand like what it is. I mean, that's like the the shit thing you were saying earlier. Like you you have this relationship to this tool that you can use creatively as long as you understand what the relationship really is.

SPEAKER_03: 32:08

Yeah. Yeah.

unknown: 32:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 32:10

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03: 32:11

It's otherwise it's gonna spit out garbage.

SPEAKER_01: 32:13

Right. Garbage in, garbage out. No, that's absolutely true. Okay. Just like cooking or anything else. Well, what um what are some things that you know we're kind of wrapping up here that you know you want people to know about? Are there creative things you're working on that you you want more people to engage with you on? Or uh since you said like, you know, you're not the salesperson, right? So I'm gonna ask you to be the salesperson.

SPEAKER_03: 32:39

God. Oh, it's kind of weird. But it's like I I did that, I did have that gig where I was like pretty much asking people for donations and on like random places.

SPEAKER_01: 32:49

Yeah, yeah, you did that. I remember you telling me about that.

SPEAKER_03: 32:51

Yeah, and I was like, oh, it wasn't a it wasn't so bad. It wasn't the hours and the driving kicked my ass, but other than that, the actual activity itself wasn't too bad. But um right now, I'm like I mentioned, I'm pivoting into storytelling games on demand.

SPEAKER_00: 33:09

Because what I do.

SPEAKER_03: 33:11

And um, there are a couple of things that I have. I mean, you were wearing word, wheel, and woe. I mean, a handful of people know about that. I also have uh for the corporate clients that the stuff that's focused on problem solving and teamwork and all that, uh, I have another game called Adventure Calls, which is Okay Imagine pulpy fantasy adventure, but much easier to grasp and much easier to learn.

SPEAKER_01: 33:39

Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_03: 33:40

That's what I that's one of them. The other thing I created this one, this one has actually been like my darling for a few months. Okay. It's called Mooples.

SPEAKER_00: 33:50

Mooples? Okay. What are mooples?

unknown: 33:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 33:56

It's like this Okay, it's this absurdist dark satire about um you're playing initiates into a cult that worships a literal golden cow. Wow, okay. And it's the uh and there's a whole structure about it about the the cult mentality and like authority and power, and of course there's under the subversive elements about resistance and whatnot, but like um you're playing these people in these cow costumes with these like pink fanny packs with udders on them, and you fascinating talk, you have to moo because that's the rule, and like it's all about like trying to survive in this bizarre environment. Um, in the past I've made it, I like I added extra layers to it, but it was like, you know, the cult itself is so weird, yeah. Trying to survive that on a daily basis is is seems like it'd be more fun. So I took that whole story of the golden calf from the Torah and made a game out of it.

SPEAKER_01: 35:08

That's awesome. That's awesome. So, like, if people wanna like, so do you have a website? Do you have I know you have an Instagram, but is there a place where like if I wanted to play that game or see that game being played or whatever that I could go to?

SPEAKER_03: 35:23

Um you'd have to email me or or bother me on social media or LinkedIn. Okay. Um I I haven't made that available yet, which is now that you bring it up, that's kind of my cue to like stop dithering and just put it out there. Okay, gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah, yeah. I've been you know, like when you're in that process where it's like, oh, I need to fine-tune a few things.

SPEAKER_00: 35:43

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_03: 35:44

And then it becomes the whole thing. That's what you just no, I can't do it yet. I need to write font. No, I can't do it yet. I need to write pictures. It's like just put it out there.

SPEAKER_01: 35:54

Yeah, a little bit. Um, what is the perfect perfect is the enemy of good or whatever? Yeah, the enemy of done. Yeah, fair enough. Wow. Yeah, I get it. I get it. That's awesome. All right. Um, well, kind of wrapping up, uh wrapping up here, you know, thank you so much. I I I'm excited about the idea that people will hear this podcast and they'll come to see you the way that I've gotten to know you over the years as just this, I mean, absolute font of creativity, right? And um the the you know, Einstein quote about imagination is more important than knowledge. You know, maybe that's not 100% true all the time, but dang if like it doesn't make the world more interesting, right? At a minimum. At a minimum.

SPEAKER_03: 36:42

At least in my head, it's more interesting.

SPEAKER_01: 36:44

Well, we need to help you get it out there into the world. So maybe this can be, you know, the the 35 people who will hear this. Maybe maybe one of you can help, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 36:53

They're like, actually, like, yeah, I would love that.

SPEAKER_01: 36:57

There you go. All right. Thank you, Sean. Appreciate you.

SPEAKER_03: 36:59

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 37:17

Don't run off just yet. I have a few things for you. Listen, we have got a lotka making class with me, Rabbi Patrick, Tuesday, December 9th. Address to be provided, but it's gonna be in Midlothian. So very excited about that. Come make three different kinds of latkas, three different kinds of sauces. They pair really well together, and yes, gluten-free vegan options available. Love to have you at that. Great opportunity to hang out with some people, learn a little bit more about Hanukkah than the story that you were told as a kid. So that is Tuesday, December 9th, followed by Friday, December 12th, Shabbat dinner and service at my home. Hey, maybe I'll take some of the lessons from the Latka class and imply that into uh the dinner. But it's gonna be lovely again here at our home. And also, yes, it's gonna be a big weekend of being at our house. Shabbat Torah study at our home, bagels, locks. We're gonna study the Torah portion. You know the drill. So lots of opportunities to learn, lots of opportunities to connect, have a lot of fun. Also, because we're talking about like latkas and things like that, we have to talk about the eighth annual Hanukkah party, which is at Art Factory. Cannot wait. It's gonna be a lot of fun. Saturday, December 20th, 5:30. And listen, you need to help Jessica Borda because she is the coordinator for this thing. So if you're interested in volunteering, we're not asking for a lot. Just come set up the Judaica table, help us with the menorahs, help us put together all the art and stuff, put out the food, you know, that kind of stuff. Set up cleanup. Easy, easy stuff. But we need your help to do it. So reach out to rabbi at rabbipatrick.com. I'll get you in touch with Jess, but we would love to have your help again. Eighth annual Hanukkah party at Art Factory. Help comes from you, from Jessica, and with some support from the National Center to Encourage Judaism. So love to see you there. Thanks, friends.