Stronger Marriage Connection

When Marriage Meets Faith | Dr. Loren Marks | #125

• Utah Marriage Comission • Season 3 • Episode 125

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Faith and religion shape marriages by influencing beliefs, practices, and community connections that help couples build "championship marriages" through shared sacred purpose. Dr. Loren Marks shares insights from the American Families of Faith Project, featuring interviews with 300 exemplary couples from 20+ faith traditions.

• Shared beliefs create a "family vision" that transcends daily conflicts and provides meaning
• Religious practices like family prayer, Shabbat dinners, and observing Ramadan strengthen marital bonds
• Faith communities offer support, mentorship, and "friends of the marriage" who invest in couples' success
• Even spouses from identical religious backgrounds have different spiritual experiences—every marriage is an "interfaith marriage"
• The "divine triangle" concept shows how spouses on individual spiritual journeys converge as they move toward God
• Big C Commitment (commitment "no matter what") versus little c commitment (conditional commitment) makes the difference in lasting marriages
• Great marriages weren't always great—many couples shared they would have "jumped ship" without faith helping them through early struggles
• Religion can harm marriages when it becomes a "time affair" or when applied too rigidly without relational flexibility

Marriage is an invitation to increased holiness, where "you lift me and I'll lift thee, and together we will ascend."


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Dave Schramm:

Faith and religion play a major role in many couples' lives, influencing everything from what they eat, drink and wear to how they raise their children, to where they marry and how they worship. On today's episode, dr Liz and I are joined by Dr Loren Marks from Brigham Young University, and he helps direct the American Families of Faith Project, a project involving interviews with 300 couples scattered across the country representing a variety of religions. He shares all kinds of lessons learned, including quotes from many of the couples they interviewed. We discuss how beliefs, practices and religious community can influence marriages, and even how religion can be harmful in some situations, and even how religion can be harmful in some situations. Dr Loren Marks is a professor in Brigham Young University's School of Family Life and a fellow at the Wheatley Institute. His research focuses on religion and families, as well as on African American families. He has authored nearly 200 scholarly articles and books. His research on families has received national media attention from outlets including the New York Times, the Washington Times, the Boston Globe and the Wall Street Journal. He is co-director with David Dahlheit of the American Families of Faith Research Project. We hope you enjoy the show.

Dave Schramm:

Hey friends, welcome to another episode of Stronger Marriage Connection podcast. I'm Dr Dave here at Utah State University alongside Dr Liz Hale, our licensed clinical psychologist and therapist. She's actually joining from Hawaii today. Liz, I'm so jealous, grateful that you're joining with us today. I'm really excited about our guest today. We know Liz. From ancient texts to modern research and in the lived experiences of countless couples, faith and religion have served as bedrock foundations for lasting marriages, these spiritual connections. They shape everything from daily routines to life's biggest decisions, influencing how couples parent, they navigate challenges and build their shared lives together. Well, today we're delving deep into this fascinating intersection of faith and marriage with someone who has dedicated his career to understanding it Dr Lord Marks from Brigham Young University. Now, dr Lord Marks is a distinguished scholar in this field, but he's not just that. He's also a dear friend and colleague who brings both academic insight and personal wisdom to this vital conversation. Welcome to stronger marriage connection, my friend lauren thanks for having me.

Dave Schramm:

Liz and dave appreciate it yeah, thanks for for joining us now, laura, before we take a deeper dive into our discussion about faith, religion and marriage, can you just give us a little bit of a background about why you chose to study this particular aspect of families?

Loren Marks:

Sure, the American Families of Faith Project is a co-directed project with Professor David Dallahide and myself, and over the years we've had over 300 students, wonderful students, who've helped make it possible as well. But going back 25 years ago or so, we discovered that about 10,000 statistics-based studies on divorce had been conducted, but that fewer than 300, or only about 3% as many studies had used in-depth interviews with wives and husbands in strong, happy, exemplary marriages. And so you know, in a phrase, we have tried to make the effort to bring some balance to the force, you might say, trying to bring strong marriages a little bit more to the foreground.

Dave Schramm:

Okay, wonderful, thank you.

Liz Hale:

There is something to be said for studying what is working right, lauren and Dave, instead of what's not working, and it's quite different, I understand. Well, we love that. I don't know if you want to say anything about that, but we just love that you're involved with this American Families of Faith Project, lauren, and what about your particular direction or your aim in connection with marriage? Where do you come in, my friend?

Loren Marks:

It's been a joy In some ways.

Loren Marks:

The aim for me, I think, is the same for many of the students that work on this, for Dave Dahlheit, and that is to figure out how to build a championship marriage in a world where that seems increasingly hard to pull off.

Loren Marks:

And so the way that we've approached that essentially is we have talked to the point people, community leaders, clergy around the country and have said to a Jewish rabbi, to a Muslim imam, to a Catholic priest, a Baptist pastor we want the strongest, the best marriage from your respective congregation. We would like to interview the wife and the husband together to find out how they pulled it off, and usually these marriages are 20 years plus and we sit down with them in their home and ask them what's the secret sauce, how did you make it work, what challenges did you face? And how did faith, in a multifaceted sense, how did faith help make this possible? And so that's the genesis of the project and it's what continues to fascinate both Dave and myself, 25, 30 years into this endeavor, and it's really intriguing to have students, some of whom are not yet married, some of whom who are newly married, be right in the mix, helping and contributing.

Liz Hale:

Wow, that is so cool. What a compliment to be called, or to refer maybe to your own marriage as a championship marriage. Some days I could refer to my marriage that way, other days or other moments not so much. I hope I'm not the only one that feels that way.

Dave Schramm:

That's right. Yeah, that's right. One of the things I appreciate about this is just the vastness. This is not a limited sample, but you have all kinds of faiths and backgrounds and Abrahamic faiths, so let's really dial into this. I'm really curious about what you have found and how actually religion can strengthen marriage. You mentioned three distinct areas Religion can strengthen beliefs, practices and community. Can you walk us through each of those and give us some examples?

Loren Marks:

Absolutely Been looking forward to this. In a nutshell, liz and Dave, we've interviewed over 300 powerful marriages from around America now. They hail from over 20 different faith communities. Interestingly, we've got a number of immigrants from outside the US and more than 20 different faith communities. Interestingly, we've got a number of immigrants from outside the US and more than 20 different nations are represented as well. Over half of the folks we interviewed are from racial and or ethnic minorities, and so it really is a richly diverse sample, which makes it even more intriguing when we see things that come up again and again from wives and husbands across race, across religion, across regions of the country, and it gives us additional confidence that what they're talking about might matter to many marriages and not just their own.

Loren Marks:

I appreciate the three-faceted question about beliefs, practices and communities. In looking forward to getting to visit with the two of you today, I thought it might be a lot more interesting to introduce your listeners to many of the families that we actually interviewed. We mentioned it's important to try to steer away from being a diva soloist and letting the rich voices of the choir sing. So, if it's all right, I'll tap several of the wonderful women and men that we've interviewed and share little pieces of their story. On the beliefs, note one way that beliefs in general seem to strengthen many of these strong marriages is through what we've come to call a shared family vision.

Loren Marks:

One Arab Muslim wife named Noreen told us, I think, that religion affects our married life, because on this point we can agree. The Ramadan fast, the month-long fast in Islam, is sacred. When we both fast, we do our activities together, we break the fast together and we wake up at midnight and eat before fasting. So we do these types of things together. That's how religion is making our life and our marriage grow together. And there I end with her words, but I mentioned, noreen and her husband were pretty open about having ongoing, you know, conflicts, about daily hassles, those kinds of things. But Ramadan, this month-long fast, was something that they looked to throughout the year to pull their family together, to pull their marriage together, and at the conclusion of this highly disciplined one-month fast, they, like other highly devoted Muslims, would take a zakat fast, an offering that was given to the poor, and for some this is as much as 2.5% of their net worth not even just talking about gross income for a year, but net worth. And for a college student you know that I spend a lot of time with 2.5% of the $20 bill they have in their wallet doesn't sound like much, but for somebody who's been stashing away a nest egg for years and years, this is the culminating effort of the fast to give this offering of generosity to the poor. And I can't help but note that if each of us were to follow this kind of example and model, we'd eradicate world hunger in a mighty hurry. So wonderful to hear that example from a Muslim family.

Loren Marks:

On the note of the shared family vision, a couple named Holly and Jared, who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, told us, in terms of this shared family vision, we know that we are going to be married forever. We know that neither one of us is going anywhere, even if we're having a miserable day or week or month. If it comes to that, we are not worried that the other person is going to take off and we're not worried that our marriage is falling apart and while occasionally that might mean that the two of us are taking each other for granted, I think that gives us a lot of security, knowing that the relationship that you are building and the family you're building is something that's going to last forever. And Holly's husband, jared, added. I have to say these things my faith are as much a part of me as my arms, so I often don't stop and think about them. But the whole basis of our relationship is not that we're just here to have fun now or that we hope things will work out for a while. It's that we're building an eternal unit that Holly and I are always going to be together. The goals that we're aimed towards are not just five years down the road, it's eternity, eternity, eternity. So, whether we're hearing from Noreen or Holly and Jared, we hear couples that have a sacred focus and also a shared vision about what family life is about. So I'd say, on the beliefs front, that's just a brief snapshot from a couple of different families.

Loren Marks:

In terms of practices that you mentioned, dave, I love practices, get very excited about them and in looking at studies from across American Families of Faith Project, we've had several studies that have indicated that some influential practices include saying grace for Protestant Christian families, attending mass and saying novenas, offering novenas for Catholic Christians, family home evening and family worship for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Shabbat meal and the accompanying rituals of that for Jewish families and, as we just heard a moment ago, the Ramadan fast for many Muslim families, and in most cases, across several studies, these kinds of practices were reportedly meaningful both for the wives and mothers and the husbands and fathers. One practice that recurs as meaningful across race, religion and region is family prayer. Family prayer Shanna, a Latina, christian mother of five, told us, reflecting back on her life. She said my neighbors from the time I was the age of six, all the way up till I was 10,. They were born again Christians and even though that's not the denomination I'm in now, it's a little bit similar to it.

Loren Marks:

Anyway, I felt different when I walked in their home. They were really humble people. They always wanted to help others. They prayed as a family together. They read the Bible together. They were never out of place with anything, it seemed. It was different from anything I'd ever seen. There was peace as soon as I'd walk into their home and I'd just feel at ease. And Shanna, in her interview, went on to mention that now, 30 years later in her life, she prays with her children and her husband like her neighbors did 30 years previously and she commented on some of the benefits that she perceived from that family practice and said a minute on some of the benefits that she perceived from that family practice and said family prayer feels right, it feels good, it feels like this is what every marriage and family should be doing. I'm grateful to be able to do that.

Loren Marks:

If my family I grew up with ever would have done that it would have been a fond memory that I would have held, but we never did. But our family now should pray more. But when we kneel together and hold hands as a family, it brings a spirit of love into our home and makes the children feel right and lets them know that this is what is right and that this is what they need to do with their families. I'm sure they'll remember it, and research elsewhere by other scholars indicates that these kinds of religious practices do leave a lasting impression on many not all, but on many kids growing up. Maybe I'll just share one more brief one from a Jewish mother who really, really impressed me conducting the interview, talking about Shabbat or the Jewish Sabbath, and she, sarah, said Shabbat gives us a chance to breathe, to relax.

Loren Marks:

We've had a busy week and here's our time to be together, relax. We've had a busy week and here's our time to be together. We always take a deep breath before we do this and let all the thoughts, the craziness and worries and everything slip away. I think that when we take the time out and when we light the candles on Friday night, that's a time that I feel really close to my husband and to my two children. When we sit across the table from each other, my husband and I, and the candles are lit and you see the kids to your right and to your left, there is something you get from that that is so deep. It's just a feeling that all is right in the world, it doesn't matter what else is going on. Right in that circle, it's awe-inspiring. On Right in that circle it's awe-inspiring. And you know, liz and Dave, you can almost see the candles lit and the table.

Liz Hale:

Can't you Taking that time to set up that beautiful picture? And it just takes a little bit of effort, doesn't it?

Dave Schramm:

And intention We'll be right back after this brief message, and we're back. Let's dive right in and I was.

Liz Hale:

I was telling dave and rex not that long ago, lauren, that you know my husband's not a man of many words, but I love to hear him pray and it really touches my heart when he prays for me. There is something just very beautiful about that. I get to see him through different eyes, so I'm an easy sell when it comes to faith, prayer, taking time out. As we know, so many things can be used against us. Right as good as faith is, sometimes it can be a double-edged sword. How have you seen, lauren, where religion can actually harm or divide marriages?

Loren Marks:

That's a really good question, and it does If religion, especially when it burns hot in someone's heart, in someone's life, heart in someone's life, that same fire that warms up the house, the same fire that prepares a hot dinner, can also burn when we go unwisely crashing through. A few different thoughts about how religion can do some damage if we're not careful. Include, I think, a key phrase from one of our friends, Bill Doherty, a leading marital therapist and researcher from University of Minnesota, is that we have to be careful of what Bill calls time affairs and, as opposed to sexual infidelity, what Bill means by time affairs are investing time in anything that becomes a detractor or a deterrent in the marriage and that, if we're not careful, too much time with golf or hunting or shopping, keeping up with the fashionistas you know, can destroy marriage just as much as sexual infidelity if that time affair gets in the way. What does it have to do with religion? Well, sometimes, if we're not careful, religion, which can be a wonderful influence for good, can become a time affair if we get carried away with it and it ends up being highly divisive instead of unifying. So that's something that we need to keep an eye out wisely, I think. Another way that religion can divide if we're not careful was captured by one of the great figures in 21st century Judaism, the late Rabbi Jonathan Sachs, and he said religion is at its best when it relies on the strength of example. It is at its worst when it seeks to impose truth by force. End of direct quote. And so when we have something that we feel passionately about, it can be easy to become coercive and damage arises when we take that kind of approach.

Loren Marks:

In some of the American Families of Faith research that Dave Dallahay and I have done again and again, it comes up that we need to balance wisely religious firmness and conviction with a flexibility, a relational flexibility, and that we need to be careful about not being too rigid. If we don't have some structure, we're likely to lose religious ritual altogether and commitment, and that's not what many religious folks want. They want to have structure, but we need to adapt and be sensitive to the needs of those around us of those around us. To tell a negative story on myself, Years ago we tried to do a study of sacred texts each day as a family, and it seemed like we'd slipped into a mode where we were reading and not really studying and discussing.

Loren Marks:

And so I thought how can we spruce this up a little bit? And so for about a week we'd read and then we'd have a Q&A session and that seemed to go great for three or four days and then it died and fizzled and we asked our kids I said you guys were asking some great questions a few days ago, why are you not doing that now? And our 10 year old son at that point in time, Logan, said well, because, dad, um, now every time we ask a question you just ramble on forever. And we realized you know, I should have known better. And so now what we try to do is go ahead and and cover a couple pages and then go around the horn and have everybody share something that was meaningful personally to them, to try to keep the study in place, being firm, but to have a more flexible approach. So I think that there are a number of ways that religion can do harm if we're not wise and careful and relational in our approach to it.

Dave Schramm:

I like the way that you put that, lorne. It reminds me of something that Wally Goddard you're familiar with, wally, and a lot of good work that he has done we've had him on. He talked about the difference in ritual in a relationship. He says sometimes we can get so involved in whatever it is religiously that we just do it out of habit. We get into this routine instead of the relationship with the divine, relationship with with others, and so that's, that's very perceptive. Yeah, you kind of think, okay, are we going through motions or is this a an active? Yeah, are we striving to deepen relationship? Any, any thoughts there?

Loren Marks:

Yeah, like you, dave, I love Wally. I think he has tremendous insight, both personally and as a researcher. I think that he is onto something there and, wisely, bearing in mind what we hold sacred religiously and also what we hold dear relationally, and and trying to find the golden mean, the hybrid between the two, is what the wisest, I think, and the best of the couples that we interviewed shared with us and, you know, with some, you know dangers that come with religion. I think it is critical to note. You know, for example, in a social context with a faith community, there are many benefits where we can learn from, learn how to do this, how to blend relationships and religion wisely and well. Wherever we're at Faith community, wise, there are models that we can look around and draw from Not perfect ones, but exemplary ones. One of the benefits you know being in a faith community is you tend to have a couple who's five years ahead of you in the lifespan and you can get a preview at what's coming. Five years from now, ten years from now, 10 years from now. There's probably one of those couples in your congregation and if you're young and fortunate, you may have someone 40 years ahead of you and so you have a lived model of wisdom and how to blend relationships and faith together in ways that can work. Many of the couples that we've interviewed have referred to this as the strength and support of a church family.

Loren Marks:

If I can just drop a couple narratives there, an African-American couple that we interviewed in New Orleans not too long after Hurricane Katrina hit down there shared this with us. This is from a father named Lucius. He said after Hurricane Katrina, when I was sick, we had two friends. This is a married couple sick. We had two friends. This is a married couple who came to my wife and told her if you need money, it's not a problem. And they were wealthy people, they had money. So if we had said yeah, we would have gotten it. It was not just a remark, it was something they would have done. Fortunately, we struggled through financially some kind of way without having to go to them. But that's kindness you do not see every day.

Loren Marks:

This is from a different marriage, but another Christian family in Louisiana said this is memorable for me. I remember this well, even though it took place years ago. Remember this well, even though it took place years ago. They said when it looked bad for us like we might lose our home. Another church member stood behind me and said he would be there to help us if our house was ever at risk. I knew that he would take care of us and nothing would happen as far as our home. I felt like God put me in that place to have someone else take care of me.

Loren Marks:

That's the end of that narrative. But again, if I can refer to Bill Doherty as a wise head in our field, bill's talked about how there are friends of us as individuals, as a wife, as a husband, as a person, but we need to come to cherish what Bill calls friends of the marriage, individuals who have a supportive, invested commitment to seeing us thrive in our marriages. And I can't think of a better couple examples to send your way or to our listeners than to stop and reflect that someone who could offer thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of dollars to a sister or brother in their church family is the same kind of person who would support you spiritually, relationally, emotionally, as you're trying to figure out how to weather life storms as a married couple as well.

Dave Schramm:

That's powerful, lauren, as I think, as you've reviewed some of these beliefs which turn you know, practices, things that individuals, the couples, the families do, and then the protective factor of the community of being there, of showing up, of helping and relying on one another. Powerful, powerful concepts, thank you. Something else that you have said you say that every marriage is an interfaith marriage. Tell us more about what you mean by that.

Loren Marks:

Yeah, I wish I could take credit for that statement. It is true, I think Dave Dahlheit and I both believe this. We've both seen it in our own marriages. But you know, in some ways the short version of this is that even if you as spouses grew up in the same church, on the same street, maybe even next door to each other, there can still be significant differences in terms of devotion, in interpretation, in practice.

Loren Marks:

Scholar who's worked with us on American Families of Faith, originally from China, a Christian convert from China discovered in our American Families of Faith interviews a tendency or trend that she referred to as matched level faith marriages and what she means by that.

Loren Marks:

In contrast, or in addition to the concept of within-faith marriage, that you can check the same box the Baptist and Baptist boxes as wife and husband in a marriage. But because there are such varying levels of devotion and commitment, you can have essentially an interfaith marriage even though you go to the same church on Sunday or one of you goes and one of you doesn't. In terms of this matched level faith that we interviewed, they were aware and respectful, highly respectful of their spouse's beliefs and practices and approaches that in some ways mirrored their own and in some ways were different, but I think that's something interesting for us to consider that, even though interfaith marriage gets a lot of attention and play that, there's this matched level, uh, faith that that also comes into play. And for many people of faith, when they hear that concept and think about it, say, oh yeah, I've, I've seen that my whole life, I just didn't have a name to give to it. Yeah.

Dave Schramm:

Yeah, that is that's just thinking about. That is interesting. Let me ask you then, lauren, a follow up to that Is the goal necessarily to bring you to the exact same level of belief and ritual practice, or is it to honor and respect where your partner or spouse is as you grow together, and it may be slightly different journeys or experiences that you have. Does that make sense?

Loren Marks:

It does. It's an excellent question. I think, of the wisdom of a Quaker proverb which says you lift me and I will lift thee, and together we will ascend. I love the idea there and this comes up in some of our interviews across faith, by the way an idea of a divine triangle where a wife may be coming up one apex, the husband up another apex of a triangle, and their walk is not identical. They're individual elements and yet as they strive towards a shared God, they do converge as time goes on. But there still has to be respect, give and take, conflict resolution, some patience, some holy envy for strengths that one partner may have where another is weak, and so forth. So it's a great question.

Loren Marks:

Many of these couples and this is something that I think qualifies as one of the most important findings that we came across is that great marriages were not and are not always great. Liz, you kind of referenced this, you know, I think, in our conversation earlier. Some days are championship days with your husband and you know, in my case, some days when I go home as a family studies professor and do the take home exam as a dad and husband, I'm afraid I get some D's and F's along the way. And many of these couples were pretty authentic and transparent and saying look, the first one, two, three, seven years of our marriage were a struggle in growing pains, trying to figure out how to turn two me's into one.

Loren Marks:

We and. Were it not for faith, both of us would have jumped ship and some of them got quite emotional. Liz, you mentioned earlier what an honor it must be to be selected by your clergy saying, hey, this wife and husband, they're a championship team, interview them. Your clergy is saying, hey, this wife and husband, they're a championship team, interview them. And as we told them that, some became pretty emotional and said if you had told us that we'd be here at year two or three in our marriage, when we were struggling, struggling hard to overcome selfishness and pettiness, we never would have believed it. And yet, 14, 20, 25, 30 years in, they'd figured out how to turn two me's into one we.

Liz Hale:

That's so tender that makes me cry. It's beautiful. Wow. We'd love to know more. Learn about some of the most important findings about Marriage for the American Families and Faith Project. How we love that project. What have you learned over the years? That applies to marriage in particular. So you've said so many great things. Are there any other nuggets? Just about your own marriage and marriages that you see around you in your own family or the students? Um, what, what else? What else, my friend?

Loren Marks:

thanks. Thanks for asking, liz. Um, in terms of my family of origin, one of one of my favorite stories uh from my dad. Uh is uh from my dad is one that took place back in the 70s and at this point in time, you know this is a different time, obviously, but my mom and my dad had three different children in cloth diapers at the same time and their washing machine broke. They were at poverty level existence at this point. They didn't have enough money to get the washing machine fixed, much less have a new one purchased, and they were I mean, this was a real crisis.

Loren Marks:

It's August and you've got three kids in cloth diapers and no money. Washing machine's not a convenience, it's a you know red alarm emergency. And my dad came home from work one day and there was a washing machine on the front porch and he lifted up the lid and there was an envelope with a hundred dollar bill inside taped to the underside of the lid. No note, just this, and then a wash bin full of detergent. Just this and then a wash bin full of detergent, really quickly, without boring anybody. If we run the economics on that, we're talking about four or five hundred dollars in the cash alone in today's currency.

Loren Marks:

And my dad teared up. He said he felt something inside him break, such gratitude for the kindness of an individual or family who would do this. And he and my mom swore something of an oath to each other that there would be a day when they would be in a position to help others in the way that they'd been lifted in their faith community, in their community in rural Oregon, outside of their church as well. And I hesitate to say this because my dad wouldn't want me to, but in some ways this is the point. The day did come. When they broke through, you know a poverty level, existence and the way that they approached the remainder of their life is they bought used cars but when they figured they got their money's worth out of a vehicle, they would look around them in the faith community or the broader community and find a family that needed a car and just give it away.

Loren Marks:

I don't know how many they've given away to this point. To my knowledge it's probably somewhere between 12 and 15, maybe as high as 20. But in terms of pure and lived religion, loving God and loving your neighbor is sacred in almost every world tradition, is sacred in almost every world tradition. And when a marriage can rely on faith and then turn and give some of that strength to others in the faith community, in the broader community, outside of the faith community, those are situations where everybody wins and naturally you don't have to belong to a faith community to do that. But the faith community does create a structured, intentionally fabricated context for giving and receiving in a covenant community where promises have been made in the marriage, to the family, to the faith community, to sisters and brothers in that faith community sacred covenants, to behave in ways that try to approximate the God that's believed in, and I find that deeply inspiring and hope to be more like that.

Dave Schramm:

We'll be right back after this brief message, and we're back, let's dive right in. Well, lauren, as we wrap up here our discussion, we'd like to ask all of our guests a question, and the question we ask is what do you feel like is the key to a stronger marriage connection?

Loren Marks:

Boy, there are thousands to choose from, as you two are well aware in your professional life. If you were to pin me down, I think one might be the big C versus little c commitment. Again, this is something that our colleague, bill Doherty's, talked about as well, along with several other researchers, but we found it to be particularly powerful in the championship marriages that we have had the chance to step onto sacred ground with Big C. Commitment with a capital C means commitment, no matter what. Little C commitment is commitment as long as dot dot dot, as long as they don't find somebody who's better looking or whose hair hasn't fallen out like mine has, who makes more money, who's healthier, et cetera. And increasingly we see that kind of provisional commitment. But with big C commitment, this buy-in of commitment, no matter what, a level of loyalty, of integrity, that is held sacred by both wife and husband, I think that that kind of commitment, wife and husband, I think that that kind of commitment, that kind of trust, can cover a multitude of ills, including stupid things that we do and say every day in marriage and life. That can get us by.

Loren Marks:

Maybe the most potent example I can give you of big C versus little c commitment comes from a couple named JD and Betsy. They're an African-American couple from Wisconsin and in 2005, so 20 years ago Betsy, who had already raised some biological children but also had five foster children she, was struck by a drunk driver and lost her legs, her mobility and her ability to communicate clearly after an extended coma. As I interviewed them, both of them explained to me that they didn't have time to hate nobody and that they'd forgiven the drunk driver. And at that point in the interview, jd turned from me to Betsy, sensitive to a comment that she'd made, that she wouldn't blame him if he ran away from her in their profoundly difficult situation. And at that part, jd told Betsy and I'm going to read this because I want to get it just right JD told Betsy and I'm going to read this because I want to get it just right he said you know, like I told you, I said till death, do us part.

Loren Marks:

Elsewhere in the interview he says till death, do us part, and forever after that, continuing with his words I am going to be here. I want you to be here for me too. That's what my mother told me. She said before we got married. Son, you've got to listen to the words. That's what my mama said. If you are truly really ready to get married, you've got to listen to the words. That's what I did. I listened, that's what I want it to be till death. Do us part and forever after that. That's where I want our relationship to be. I'm always going to have your back and I want you to have mine.

Loren Marks:

And this afternoon, liz and Dave, like every other day, jd will pick Betsy up. He'll put her into her wheelchair. He'll take her down the elevator in their apartment building and he'll take her into her wheelchair. He'll take her down the elevator in their apartment building and he'll take her for a drive Her only real taste of freedom. Each day. 20 years he's been doing that. Jd understands what big C commitment means, and our American Families of Faith team, including the 300 students who've worked with us over the years. We are so profoundly grateful for marriages like JD's and Betsy's that don't show us perfection, but they do show us exemplary levels of commitment and devotion, love, integrity and trust. Devotion, love, integrity and trust. And hopefully the lived invitation that they offer through their examples will inspire us to new heights in our own marriages.

Liz Hale:

Wow, that's something. Wow, you have been so. You blessed us so much today, Lauren. So much good information. Where can we all go to find out more about you and your research, please?

Loren Marks:

thank you for asking, liz uh. American families of faith. If you just punch that into your your google search engine, I'll give you our website, and there are a couple hundred different resources, ranging from video shorts of a minute to fuller length articles. Some of these are public facing, some of them are more academic in tone and based on the hard research, but we hope that you'll draw strength from families like JD's and Betsy's. You know it's interesting. I have been so moved by these families. It's been the great experience of my professional life to be able to go to work and to learn from families like these. And I would say to those out there yes, we're familiar with the divorce statistics. We know that there are a lot of things that are difficult in life, but there is profound and real hope in examples of everyday heroes to our right and to our left, and many of those can be found in faith communities. Um that, that's been a blessing for me wow, so powerful, lauren.

Dave Schramm:

Hey, another question we ask, um all of our guests is just a takeaway of the day. Is there a takeaway, uh, something you want our listeners to remember from our discussion today?

Loren Marks:

Thanks, thanks, dave. If I can share a personal experience, as opposed to one from one of our 300 marvelous marriages marriages I just feel incomplete without doing a marriage-related podcast, without talking about my sweetheart of almost 30 years, sandra, and I will say that, having taught at three different universities across time, often I'll ask a question confidentially near the end of the semester and ask students to take out a blank piece of paper, not to put their name on it and to write a response to the question what is your greatest fear about marriage? About 85% of the students who've responded over the years have said my greatest fear is that my spouse, my future spouse, will cheat on me, and most of the remaining 15% say I'm worried that I'll cheat on my future spouse. So the crux here takes us back to the big C commitment, and often I will share the following love story from my own life, and in short, it goes like this One of the great love stories from my life. I think about 20 years ago my wife ran to a Kmart store and was buying a number of groceries, including a sink fixture replacement for a house a number of groceries, including a sink fixture replacement for our house and when I came home from work that day, as I came through the door, sandra rushed and she said I've got to go to Kmart, I'll explain when I get back. And I said I thought that you said you went to Kmart earlier today. And she said I did, but I'll explain when I get back. So I find out later the rest of the story.

Loren Marks:

Sandra went back to Kmart, went to the customer service line and said to the customer service rep hey, I got home and I discovered that this $52 sink fixture was not showing up on my receipt. You didn't charge me for it. And the lady at the customer service counter didn't even know what to tell her. Apparently, this is not a complaint. They feel the whole lot at the customer service counter. You know not getting charged. And so Sandra said tell you what? How about I just go back through the checkout line as though I'm paying for it for the first time, which in fact I am. You guys get your money and my conscience is clear. And the customer service gal says whatever lady.

Loren Marks:

And then I tell the students that is one of the great love stories of my life and they think hey, come on, that's not even PG-13. Where do you see that as a great love story. And then I remind them that for 85% of them their greatest concern is that their future spouse will cheat on them. And I say, not knowing my wife, just hearing that one story, how much sleep do you think I lose over worrying about whether my wife is faithful to me or not? And there's often a pregnant pause.

Loren Marks:

And then someone will say none.

Loren Marks:

And I say why? And they'll say well, because she was faithful to the cashier at Kmart. I mean, she took the sink back. And then I'll say that's right, she took the saint back to have integrity, to live up to those promises, those covenants that we make. And that when we do that, through what Dave Dahl, hyatt and I call the principle of lived invitation namely our behavior is permission to others to behave similarly, but it is more than that, it is an invitation to do so that through that principle of lived invitation, when we live up to our covenants, our commitments, when we take the sink back, there are benefits that come from that kind of integrity that bless not only our own marriage or our own children, our own home, but that permeate society and instill in each of us a desire to be our best self.

Loren Marks:

So on that note, I think I'd close up with a statement from Judaism that marriage is an invitation to increased holiness, and to be married to a woman like Sandra it is that it's not perfect, we both make mistakes every day, but nevertheless there is an ongoing invitation to holiness. And back to our Quaker friends you lift me and I'll lift thee and together we will ascend. Thanks so much for having me, you two. I appreciate your work, appreciate the messages on the podcast, past and present. Thanks for all the good work you're doing with Utah Marriage Commission, etc thank you so much, lauren.

Dave Schramm:

This has been past and present. Thanks for all the good work you're doing with Utah Marriage Commission et cetera. Thank you so much, lauren. This has been so helpful beneficial, inspiring even.

Liz Hale:

Liz, do you have a takeaway? You know, I was just thinking before. Lauren even said it was not about perfection. I love that reminder because I think sometimes we can really get discouraged. We know our faults and our weaknesses right. Our blind spots come up and catch us off guard, and yet it's really about the big C commitment. It's the commitment every day to do a little bit better, to lift each other, to be more committed, to be more loving, to be more forgiving. It's just such a message of hope. Today, lauren, and I've heard your Take Back the Sink story. I'm so glad to make the connection that that was yours. I will never forget that. I read that years ago, somehow, some way, and now to see her today is just such an honor. Dave, my friend, what about the richest nugget that you're taking away today with our time with Dr Lauren Marks? Yeah, yeah.

Dave Schramm:

This has been, this has been in the Lord. I mean when I say this has been inspiring, and I think that that's what faith can do for people is to help them to live better, holier, outside of themselves. I think religion and faith a lot of the theme in my mind as you read these narratives is it's, is it helps them to search inward and then to turn outward. Right, it's not about them and I think that sometimes, without something higher hol myself, that faith helps me to search inward, to turn outward, to treat others differently, including my wife and my, bring meaning and hope and help us through the tough and through the hard and through the challenges. It can bring us hope and help us in our lives to treat others differently, higher, holier, as you say. So, lauren man, thanks again. This has been such a joy, such an honor really, at least for me, to to have you on and to to listen and to learn from you, my friend.

Loren Marks:

Thanks so much for your time. Appreciate you both, Wiz and Dave I I. I'm struck, you know, as we heard these narratives from amazing couples, that most of them referenced other couples that they were inspired by, and I think that, just like in research, where we stand on the shoulders of giants, great marriages often are inspired by other preceding great marriages and hopefully we can keep that chain alive. Good point.

Dave Schramm:

Yeah, yours is one of those, lauren, for me, so thank you for that. Well, friends, that does it for us for another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection podcast. We'll see you next time.

Liz Hale:

And remember friends. It's the small things that create a stronger marriage connection. Take good care of you and each other. Bye-bye now.

Dave Schramm:

Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us a favor and take a second to subscribe to our podcast and the Utah Marriage Commission YouTube channel at Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the show. Be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at Stronger Marriage Life, and Facebook at Stronger Marriage, so be sure to share with us which topics you loved or which guests we should have on the show. Next, if you want even more resources to improve your marriage or relationship connection, visit StrongerMarriageorg, where you'll find free workshops, e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys and more.

Dave Schramm:

Each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, rex Polanis, and the team at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, rex Polanis, and the team at Utah State University and you, our audience. You make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.