Stronger Marriage Connection
It's often said that marriage takes work. The Stronger Marriage Connection podcast wants to help because a happy marriage is worth the effort. USU Family Life Professor Dr. Dave Schramm and Clinical Psychologist Dr. Liz Hale talk with experts about the principles and practices that will enhance your commitment, compassion, and emotional connection.
More than ever before, marriages face obstacles, from the busyness of work and daily hassles to disagreements and digital distractions. It's no wonder couples sometimes drift apart, growing resentful, lonely, and isolated.
The Utah Marriage Commission invites you to listen and discover new ways to strengthen and protect your marriage connection today!
Stronger Marriage Connection
Betrayal Trauma: Finding Hope After Infidelity | Dave Jones | #126
Betrayal trauma occurs when trust is violated within a relationship, creating a profound alteration of reality for the betrayed partner and causing symptoms similar to PTSD. David Jones, a licensed marriage and family therapist, shares insights on the unique challenges of betrayal trauma and offers a three-part framework for healing.
• Betrayal trauma is defined as an "alteration of reality" - discovering that what you thought was true about your relationship wasn't
• What makes betrayal trauma unique is that the betrayed often must interact with the source of their trauma
• The "three legs of the stool" framework for healing: boundaries, individual coping skills/self-care, and connections
• Recovery takes significant time - often years - but healing is possible whether the relationship continues or ends
• Forgiveness does not equal trust - forgiveness is releasing bitterness while trust must be earned through consistent behavior
• Emotional safety forms the foundation for rebuilding connection after betrayal
• Support people should be "marriage friendly" if the couple is working toward reconciliation
If you'd like to learn more about the resources discussed in this episode, visit Secure Connection Counseling at secureconnectioncounseling.com or explore the resources available at StrongerMarriage.org.
David's Links:
https://secureconnectioncounseling.com/
About David Jones:
David Jones is dedicated to strengthening marriages and families. Growing up with divorced parents and a father in recovery from alcoholism shaped his passion for helping couples navigate challenges. His own blended family of eight children further fuels his commitment to marriage therapy.
A Certified Emotionally Focused Therapist, Certified Family Life Educator, and EFT Supervisor Candidate, David specializes in helping couples facing betrayal trauma, infidelity, sexual addiction, and ADHD-related relationship struggles. He also teaches university courses on family relationships and serves as an Army Reserve Chaplain, expanding his real-world perspective.
As an AAMFT-Approved Supervisor and EFT Supervisor in Training, David is a leader in his field. He applies attachment theory to therapy, believing that secure relationships not only heal but create lasting transformation. Clients often credit his work with saving their marriages. With a deep well of experience, empathy, and expertise, David is a trusted guide for couples seeking healing and growth.
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Dr. Dave Schramm:
Dr. Liz Hale:
http://www.drlizhale.com
On today's episode, dr Liz and I are joined by David Jones and we dive into the deep waters of betrayal trauma. We talk about how and why it's considered trauma when a partner is unfaithful. He then shares some helpful tips to provide hope and healing for individuals and couples, and emphasizes that each journey is different. So is the healing process. If you or a loved one has been through this painful process, we think you will find this episode very helpful. David Jones is a licensed marriage and family therapist and owner of Secure Connection Counseling in St George, utah. He's a certified emotionally focused couples therapist, an AAMFT approved supervisor and an Army Reserve chaplain. His group practice focuses on couples therapy, with a special niche in helping couples recover from betrayal.
Dave Schramm:We hope you enjoy the show. Hey friends, welcome to another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection podcast. I'm Dr Dave here at Utah State University alongside Dr Liz Hill, our therapist and psychologist. We love bringing you the best we have in valid marital research and resources and tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. All right, liz, I think it's fair to say that all couples enter marriage with an expectation that they will be able to trust the other person, trust them to meet certain needs, that they'll be able to develop that strong, faithful relationship. So what happens when a spouse or partner fails to meet those needs, or if they even go out of their way to reject those needs and betraying the trust of their partner? Well, here to discuss more about betrayal trauma and how you or a loved one can find hope and healing following betrayal trauma, is David Jones. Marriage family therapist from St George. Welcome to the show, david Jones.
David Jones:Thank you, I'm glad to be here. I've been a fan of the Strong Reconnection podcast and Marriage Commission for many years, so it's an honor to be here.
Dave Schramm:Yeah, we were talking about that earlier, about the service that you have done, kind of the path that you have taken with military, and you've been a strong supporter of Utah Marriage Commission for many years, and even on its board, yeah, several years ago. So thank you, thanks for what you bring. I know we're diving deep rather into a kind of a tough topic. I think for some this can be one of the most painful experiences, I think for both partners through this process. So let's maybe start out with a big picture. Can you define for our listeners exactly what happens in betrayal, to make it a form of trauma?
David Jones:Sure and to be a little bit more specific about my work, the betrayal trauma that I'm usually referring to is when there has been betrayal through infidelity, specifically with emotional, sexual, physical infidelity or other acting out behaviors such as pornography, use that goes against one's values or was lied about. But betrayal trauma in general can be more broad than that. It's defined as when one person has kind of left the trust of a relationship, and that can happen with a parent, a close friend, but, especially in the context of my work, in a marriage or another committed relationship. And so when there is that trust that's violated, it becomes a trauma. And the way that I define trauma is simply this is that it's an alteration of reality. I thought I had this and then it turns out it was this. We can use that same definition in so many contexts you mentioned.
David Jones:I'm in the military, a combat survivor. I thought I had a safe world and then I went to Vietnam or Afghanistan and found out it wasn't. It altered my view of the world and of my safety, or somebody who's experienced sexual assault or sexual abuse. I thought I had this and then that thing happened, or even a natural disaster. I thought I lived in a safe, had this and then that thing happened, or even a natural disaster. I thought I lived in a safe neighborhood and then that hurricane swept through and I don't feel safe. Well, we can apply that same definition to intimate relationships. I thought I had a safe marriage or a safe committed partnership, and then it turns out by my partner betraying me, stepping out. Then it's not, and then that alteration of reality becomes very clinical in nature. Frankly, it comes very close to the same diagnostic criteria we would use in the DSM for post-traumatic stress disorder.
Dave Schramm:I see, yeah, so I mean literally their whole world can be shaken upside down. It's like is real. I thought that this was this and now it's it's not and I just feel, yeah, betrayed, and feel that trauma, um broken. I'm sure you've seen people at their lowest of of lows mentally, and probably suicidal and just all kinds of oh yeah for sure.
David Jones:And and again, I like how you just said it I just don't know my reality. I don't. Oh, yeah, this is, and especially as betrayal often accompanies deceit, oh, they're never going to find out what this is unless there's some really serious interventions or some turn. And so it adds to the dilemma of the bit of the trauma when there's been betrayal, because I don't even have a way to figure out what this is. I can't make sense of it, because I what I call the truth has not been given to that partner it's got to to be that whole blow up notion of like you or this.
Liz Hale:This marriage is not what I thought it was. You are not who I thought you were.
David Jones:Yeah, it's so upsetting.
Liz Hale:I can think of a number of betrayals right Small, medium, large and number of traumas. Even Tell us a bit more, david. What makes betrayal trauma unique from other traumas, please?
David Jones:Yeah, well, first of all, I would never want to get in the habit of comparing traumas. What's hard for me is going to be hard for you and it might be different. You know, in the field sometimes we talk about trauma with a big T and trauma with a lowercase T. I don't really do that. I just think what's traumatic for one person is traumatic for them. As an Army Reserve chaplain, I've worked with many soldiers that have just been in the depths of hell in their combat experience, and so those are really difficult and everybody's experiencing something different and, based on the impact of that or their own resilience, they're going to experience it differently. But here are some unique things about betrayal trauma. Again, if we're using diagnostic criteria from the DSM, I'm always careful with how I do that because I don't want to diagnose somebody that doesn't need to be diagnosed. But it gives us a good guide for what a person's going through when we're looking at the symptoms.
David Jones:Criteria A of betrayal trauma is exposure to an event that was either life-threatening, sexually violent or life-injurious. Most people who have experienced betrayal trauma can't really say that their life is threatened. Most people say there hasn't been sexual violence perpetrated against them, although I have seen that in some cases where violent pornography was viewed and then it carried it on into the bedroom, that has happened. Most people can't say that there's been a physical injury to themselves. However, if there was an actual physical sexual stepping out, that can leave the marriage open for STIs or STDs. So there is a physical injury. But everybody I talk to who has experienced betrayal trauma can definitely describe an emotional injury or an attachment injury, an injury to the bond of their relationship and the connection. And so that's where we who work with betrayal trauma when it comes to infidelity, that's where we get that diagnostic criteria.
David Jones:Well, what makes it unique? The long answer to your short question what makes it unique is if I have a combat survivor in my office or a sexual assault survivor in my office and they're triggered and they're in their stuff and they're back in Vietnam or whatever, I can usually reorient them with time and space and say things like hey, it's Monday, january 27th, you're in St George, you're no longer there, and that usually helps ground them and oh, by the way, you don't have to go back. That's a big thing. When I'm working with a couple and they're trying to heal from their one-one partner's betrayal. They might be sitting next to the source of their trauma, they might be holding that person's hand and they're about to get up and leave my office and go live life together and parent their children and eat dinner and sleep and have sexual intimacy together and all of those things are good in the context of what they need for healing. But it opens the door significantly for re-exposure and I think that's what significantly sets apart betrayal trauma from maybe others is you can get re-exposed so easily, especially if you're working on your relationship.
David Jones:There's one more piece, if I can add, that I think makes this unique is the choice factor. Marriage is a chosen relationship as opposed to siblings and parents. Those are fixed. If I choose to bring somebody into my life, that's really hard for some people, maybe easier for others. But if I choose to bring somebody into my life and they betray me, I've had people just run circles on that as how could I do that to myself? How could I let them in? What's wrong with me, which is, by the way, another symptom of trauma in the DSM.
Dave Schramm:So I think those two things, the re-exposure- and the choice factor made betrayal trauma particularly difficult. Yeah, that's interesting. I do know a couple. I'm not a therapist, but I do know couples and friends and people who've been through experienced this. And sometimes you have the guilt factor on the person, like why didn't I see this comment? How could I be so stupid? Or I I felt some thoughts or to do this or that, and so they will, like emotionally, beat themselves up because they feel betrayed, but they feel so dumb in a way, is how they explain it to me which is another symptom in the dsm.
David Jones:Uh, criteria d is negative alterations in mood and cognition. So negative symptom in the DSM Criteria D is negative alterations in mood and cognition. So negative changes in the cognition is the way they view themselves. Sometimes you look at how dumb I am, how much of a fool was I or I wasn't enough, and it just gets so complex because sometimes the betrayal doesn't necessarily create that negative thought. It it confirms it for some people. I already thought poorly of myself and then my partner stepped up to me, you know, and so it just gets that that criteria d1 is probably the harder one to to heal long term because it reeks of reeks of like real core beliefs.
Dave Schramm:Wow, yeah, this is again, yeah, pretty heavy, heavy topic from this. You work, uh, with a lot of couples, individuals, couples uh, trying to help them find hope and healing through that betrayal trauma. What have you found Can you almost walk us through some helpful tips, some examples of what you do to help couples heal from it? And what does that look like from each partner's perspective? Right from it? And what does that look like from each partner's perspective right, because the couples that I know who are trying to make it work the one who betrayed and had these sexual affairs is beating himself or herself up as well, so they both are experiencing some pain. What have you found that's helpful?
David Jones:Yeah, sure. So again, the larger context in which I work is with couples who are trying to heal. I do work with some individuals, but generally I'm a marriage therapist and so that's mostly what I do. But I use a metaphor that, first of all, that affairs and if we're talking specifically affairs or other sexual betrayal, it's like a fire in the house. It's like the big flaming thing that's going to kill us if we don't get those flames out. It's like the big flaming thing that's going to kill us if we don't get those flames out. It doesn't mean that the house didn't already have some problems. Maybe there was bad plumbing, maybe there was bad electrical that contributed to the fire, which happens. Maybe there was a bad foundation to begin with. But I'm not going to go into a burning house and try to work on plumbing. So we have to kind of triage the treatment and so what that means maybe for the partner. If you did the betrayal, they got to wait their turn a little bit. I want to get to them. I want to get to the plumbing issues that maybe they have in the house, because those are very real for them and if I ignore those I'm not going to have engagement. But I have to work on the fire first and that's normally helping with some of the trauma type symptoms that come with the betrayed partner. So that's kind of a key principle for me. As we work in time we can get to some of the other things that may be contributed to the fire. But often there's relational dynamics or intrapersonal dynamics or other things that need to be in attention to if we're going to have long-term healing. So I think that's an important thing first. But I found and I love my clients because I've learned this from them what they need and they've helped construct.
David Jones:The model that I use is I use what's called three legs of the same stool and you've probably heard a metaphor like that that if you have a stool, it only has one or two legs. It's not going to support you very well. So if we have this stool that's holding up our healing or our recovery, we've got to have all three legs. And I can go into great detail on these, but I'll just go over them quickly. The first leg is boundaries. We have to have boundaries in the relationship and outside the relationship that keep the relationship safe. Boundaries are physical, communicative, sexual, physical walls that we put up that help keep us safe.
David Jones:Now here's the difficulty with that. I'm a marriage therapist. I really don't like boundaries because we're putting up walls between the two people I'm trying to connect. I also recognize that they're necessary. So I've added to the boundary concept a little bit that I have a block wall around my house. It keeps my dogs and my kids and notice the order of that my dogs and my kids. It keeps everything in my property safe and it keeps people out. I have three gates. I can open up and close those gates anytime I want to. So I really have to help couples with that sometimes. Sometimes we've got can open up and close those gates anytime I want to. So I really have to help couples with that sometimes. And sometimes we've got to open up gates if we're going to connect, we can shut them quickly if we need to, but let's risk a little bit and open up those gates. So boundaries are just about walls. They're about walls and gates. So that's thing number one that I found. You want me to keep going to number two and three.
David Jones:Okay, number two is kind of a twofer is for the individuals individual coping skills and self-care. Those are two things. Coping skills is kind of for the reactive times, maybe, when a person has a trauma trigger and they need to get through that. So that's helping the person with breathing, mindfulness, parks, work, resourcing them, their spiritual practices, whatever it is that they might have, that they can get through a tough moment. That's the coping skills. Self-care is more about proactivity. What am I going to do to just live a healthy life? That's things like diet, nutrition, sleep, exercise, having a hobby, having something to look forward to. I'm a big believer that you always have to have something to look forward to. It can be big or small, but helping resource them with those. How do I just live a good life? Sometimes people were living a really good, healthy life and then this trauma knocked them off their rock a little bit. So we have to pick that up. A lot of times people weren't, and so that's a resilience factor that we have to help build.
David Jones:That for them to heal, that's number two, and the third leg is my favorite, honestly is connections is that people have to have good people and and resources in their life in order for them to heal, so that's friends, family members, communities, spiritual communities and so on that they can reach out. Now here's the metric for that, because that can get a little bit dangerous. You have good people in your life who want you to heal. They could be very biased, they could say things like you shouldn't have to put up with that and the truth is you shouldn't but if you're working on a marriage, that's not helpful, and so I tell people you have to have people who are marriage friendly or at least marriage neutral, that you reach out to.
David Jones:The final option that I want people to work with, if I'm working with their relationship, is each other, and that gets messy because I'm trying to have you again open up a gate to somebody that's caused some pain in you. Well, we'll close it when we need to, but can we risk a little bit and open it up, and that's going to be how we heal the relationship and the process as well. So three legs of the stool boundaries, individual coping skills and self-care and connections. That's how I learned from my clients that have been helpful for them. So that's what I do with everybody I love that We'll be right back after this brief message.
Dave Schramm:And we're back, let's dive right in. And we're back, let's dive right in. Can I follow up on that last one on the connections? And I'm again. Every situation is going to be different. There's not a cookie cutter for any of this. I know some people who are like no, you know, it's embarrassing, I'm not going to tell a family friend, I'm not going to tell anyone, and you know I just going to be us or you know, and another couple that I'm kind, kind of his. I'll just check in right once in a while. He's there seeing a therapist here in town and things are going, um, pretty good. But I'm more kind of the check-in, um, and I don't pry or anything. But I feel like I'm playing that kind of a supportive role and you know she's aware of that and everything. Any thoughts on you know who to tell or how much to tell, or to share any of this with.
David Jones:Yeah, I think a good phrase that I think I learned from a colleague once upon a time is that you let in people who have earned the right to know, and so that's a trust factor for sure, and oftentimes, sadly, you'll think that a person has earned the right to know, so you'll let them in. You'll find out quickly that they weren't the right people, so then you put up that boundary with them. But you speak to a really good point, because either the betraying partner or the betrayed partner and they both need support, let's make no bones about that they both need feeling too ashamed to open up, or they worry that it's going to be too judgmental or their religious community is going to shame them or something, and so we have to figure that out somehow. I love a lot of the support groups that we have in the community. That can be a place of non-judgment and shame.
David Jones:There can always be nuance to that. But even something like asynchronous finding a Facebook group or another online community that can help you connect, finding a Facebook group or another online community that can help you connect you can be anonymous. In that Everything has its risk, because you might find people who, again, are not marriage friendly. They've had their own pain that they can't see that somebody else could potentially get past this. We have to be very careful and make some assessments about that. But there can be other ways to connect. Even if we can can't do it like one-on-one with someone, it's harder. It's harder if you can't find somebody that you can look in the eye and be in pain, but it's possible. A therapist can be that way.
Dave Schramm:Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
David Jones:And I like.
Liz Hale:That question you were proposing, Dave, is how do we be those good support people? David, do you have just a couple thoughts on how can I be a good support to my friends who might be going through that?
David Jones:Most important thing is a place of non-judgment, because people are going to make decisions for or against their marriage based on what they need, and even if we aren't necessarily on board with their decisions, we recognize that their decisions are their decisions. You might be really close to somebody that has experienced betrayal and because of that you're feeling your own pain, and so it's hard for you to be accepting of the idea that maybe they want their marriage to work Well. That's their decision, and to at least be marriage neutral is a really, really good place and I'm using the word marriage anonymously because I work with a lot of couples who are in other intimate forms of relationships. But maybe they want to be and maybe they have kids, maybe they have all kinds of reasons that they're in that relationship, and to be a place of marriage is probably the most engaging.
Liz Hale:I guess my question too is how do I be a good support without kind of getting in the mire of it? I don't want to be a therapist to this couple. I'm thinking of a particular couple. I want to be their friend, but they kind of like to rope in friends right, Especially when you're a therapist. They want to get your take on it. Yeah, how do I avoid that?
David Jones:Yeah, I think you're probably speaking to the boundaries concept again, liz, we've got to put up a wall, but we can put up a gate. I'm not going to expose my whole property, so to speak, but I'm going to let little bits of information Sometimes that's with crucial, difficult conversations like I'd really love to help you with more of this. I am here for you, but I can't get in the middle of it and maybe it's because I care about both of you, maybe it's because I don't have the time to emotionally invest in this, and then that's going to keep you hanging. So, speaking communicatively with the boundary and saying I'm here for this and this, I'd love to take you to dinner. I'll be a sounding board for you. But if I started to get real deal, I'm going to probably have to step back a little bit and be the place that I can be for you.
Liz Hale:That's well said. I love. We love the message, David, that couples really do recover from this type of betrayal. Can you share some stories of healing what that looks like? We realize, like Dave's point, every couple, every journey is different, without a specific time frame. Is that right?
David Jones:Oh, yeah, for sure and just first of all, unequivocally yes, people can recover from this. That's what excites me most about doing this work. It's hard work. People ask me all the time how do I do it? And it's because I get charged and recharged by seeing people recover it happens every week on my couch and recharged by seeing people recover. It happens every week on my couch. It's going to take a lot of work, a lot of highs, a lot of lows, a lot of roller coaster, but it's possible. It's worth every effort and even if, in the end, the marriage doesn't survive, the effort is worth it. So I very much believe that. But the healing looks like for most couples. The healing really looks like increased vulnerability that we're able to open up to each other, and I learned so much from my couples. So that's what I love about doing this work, because they teach me so much.
David Jones:The one couple in particular that I'm thinking of was significant in its presentation about the way the one partner acted out, but what that ended up looking like for them and their journey is that they could really be open and vulnerable with each other about all things. He could tell her after doing all of the most nefarious things that you could ever imagine. He could turn to her and tell her I can't believe I did that. Sometimes I feel tempted to do it again. He could tell her that and that's a significant vulnerability. It would be hard for her but it's better than him just not telling her and going out and doing it again. She could tell him about her negative alterations in the way that she believed in herself. This was so hard for me I don't even think I'm worth it anymore. I don't think I matter to you, but those are really hard things to share. But if you can do that and have that be a safe, nonjudgmental place, that's what healing would like for that couple and, generally speaking, that's what everybody needs is the ability to be open and vulnerable with each other about what they're experiencing on both sides of the issue.
David Jones:You mentioned timeframe, and timeframe is hard. I mean, most couples are going to be years into recovery, whatever that looks like. That might be years in therapy, that might be years of doing their own work, but it takes a long time and oftentimes I'll ask I'll have couples how long is this going to take? They'll ask that question and I'll say something like well, how long was he looking at pornography? Well, for 10 years. Well, it might take 10 years. I don't really believe that necessarily, but I want to give them perspective that it's going to take them a little while.
David Jones:But one of the things about the timeline takes us back to the concept of trauma. Trauma itself is kind of this omnipresent thing. It doesn't have a timeline. A traumatic trigger right now brings up all of the stuff from the past, totally messes with our view of safety about the future and it's happening right now and that's an important thing to realize. That's one thing that sets trauma apart perhaps is I'm feeling this omnipresence of everything right now, and so oftentimes I'll understandably have both partners say things like why can't we just get past this? Why can't I get over this? Well, those are statements of past. Past doesn't exist in a traumatic moment. It's all in one singular moment.
David Jones:So the right word is how can I heal? And healing is going to take a long time. If I have a physical wound on my body, a cut or something, my body's generally healthy enough and it will heal over time. If I add treatment to that wound, keep it clean, put some Neosporin on it, a Band-Aid it will heal faster. So time plus treatment is the factor there, but I'd really say how long. Usually a while, though. But I'd really say how long usually a while, though.
Liz Hale:Well, can I ask you? Sometimes I will caution couples against quick forgiveness. Do you do that as well? Can you just make a comment about that please?
David Jones:Well, sure, and I think we can borrow a lot from the work of, like Scott Stanley and Howard Markman with their prevention and relationship enhancement program, orep. They do a great module on forgiveness, what forgiveness is and what forgiveness isn't, and so helping couples understand that forgiveness doesn't equal trust. Trust is something that's earned over time. Forgiveness does not equal condoning of bad behavior. Forgiveness doesn't mean all the pain is gone. Forgiveness doesn't mean there aren't consequences to things. So recognizing that forgiveness is actually separate from some of those things, because I think we get them mixed up in our head.
David Jones:Forgiveness is letting go of the belief that you owe me something, that there's some sort of transaction that still has to happen. We can look at that financially. If I forgive a debt, you don't owe me that anymore. So I think that's thing one is helping people understand forgiveness, but especially helping people not go too fast with it, because they might have a Judeo-Christian spiritual belief about it, which I subscribe. I think it's part of the process forgive way too quickly and then they're just going to, then they're that what they're probably going to do is deny any efforts that they need to still have given or that they need to do themselves for healing.
Dave Schramm:Thank you, yeah, david, I'm curious what the process looks like. Um, if the marriage is is not intact, I'm sure affairs result in many separations, divorces. Can one heal from betrayal, trauma from that? Does that process look different?
David Jones:Yeah, absolutely, and I think for me it involves the same three legs of the stool. It just might look a little bit different because if a partner has, if the marriage relationship is no longer viable and the marriage relationship ends, then that's probably stronger boundaries that need to happen with that person. It's going to be more walls than gates and the connections portion of it is going to look different because it's arguably not appropriate or not healthy or not safe to use that partner as a connection resource. So we just have to modify what they need for that individual. But I still think it needs the same things boundaries, interpersonal or, excuse me, individual coping skills and self-care and connections. In fact, just tonight here in my practice we're starting a betrayal trauma group based on that model and I know those that are in the group are in all different situations. Some are no longer in the relationship, some are working on their relationship. We're going to have that in a mixed group. It's going to be a wild route but I think the factors still apply to all situations.
Dave Schramm:Yeah, okay, thank you.
Liz Hale:Great and I would love to hear more about your practice as well, the secure connection, counseling and say, george, do you see groups online, individuals online, and where can listeners find out more about you and your resources?
David Jones:David, yeah sure, secure Connection Counseling. We're a clinic in St George, Utah. It's myself and I've got five, six practitioners that work for me. All of us are formally trained in Emotionally Focused Therapy or EFT, which is my favorite form of therapy by far. It's the gold standard in couples therapy according to the APA, and so we take that very seriously that we need to have strong connections, strong attachments, secure attachments in our life. We see individuals and couples in our practice. Our caseload is probably about 80% couples. The rest are going to be individuals and some families, and we do see people online as well, and people can find us at secureconnectioncounselingcom. Okay.
Liz Hale:Thank you Wonderful.
Dave Schramm:Yeah, we'll be sure to put that link in our show notes for our listeners as well. Let me ask you, david, in honor of the name of our podcast, stronger Marriage Connection in all of your personal, your professional experience and it's hard to do this right To boil things down to one key, but is there a key that you feel like is essential for a stronger marriage connection?
David Jones:Well, I could talk about this all day so it is hard to boil it down, but I'll just emphasize the importance of that phrase stronger connection as an emotionally focused therapist. Eft is rooted in attachment theory, which says that we do better in our life when we have strong connections, and it goes as far as saying that there are needs. It's not just a nice to have. We need strong connections in our life and unfortunately I think people in our field have pathologized that too much, that it's something bad or wrong for you to need another person in your life. And so EFT especially helps take away that stigma that it's okay and necessary for us to have strong connections in our life. So I applaud the title of the program. It fits specifically with my philosophy about things. But I think the key to having those stronger connections really boils down to emotional safety.
David Jones:In AFT we're trying to help couples create stronger attachments and stronger bonds by getting to the emotions that are underneath the patterns and cycles that they've established in their relationship. One partner's pursuit trying to get their partner to open up is rooted in fear that if I don't get them to open up they won't love me and I'm going to lose my relationship. One partner's withdrawal in the relationship is rooted maybe in a fear of not being enough for their relationship and partner, and so they don't know what to do, so they just shut down. And so when we pay attention to those fears, it reframes it significantly. If I'm scared that you don't love me, that means you matter to me. And so when we start to reframe that, it starts to change the nature of it by going to the emotion. So when we can get vulnerability in those deeper emotions, that breeds stronger connection.
Dave Schramm:I love it. Yeah, emotional safety Essential. Yeah, thanks so much, david. As we wrap things up, we call it a takeaway of the day. Is there a message that you hope our listeners will remember from our discussion today?
David Jones:Sure, I think probably two. The first is that betrayal trauma is trauma. It might not meet the clinical criteria for PTSD that's not what we're going for necessarily but it is trauma, it is an alteration of reality and when we understand that, when I really started to understand that clinically, it changed the nature of the way I treat my individuals and my couples, because it's this thing that happened to them, not this what they are, because that's what they're telling them. But I think the second thing that's most important is that healing is possible. It absolutely is possible. Whether that's healing in your individual life and you no longer have a viable relationship, and especially healing in your relationship, that is very much possible. I recognize that that doesn't happen for everybody and that's a tragedy and that deserves its own focus and specialty and care. But it's possible both ways around.
Dave Schramm:Yeah, wonderful, love it, liz. What about you? What's your takeaway today?
Liz Hale:Those are great takeaways, David. You know I love this idea that forgiveness does not necessarily mean trust. I mean, when I look at just the word forgiving, I separate it out. It's for giving myself a gift, right, Even as a betrayed partner, I don't have to hang on to this bitterness. It doesn't necessarily mean that trust has been earned, because you can't earn it quickly and I just love that there's still. I don't love this, but the honoring that there's can be forgiveness, and still pain and still consequence. Or you know, I really need this. I often say to my clients you know, I can't do for your partner, but you can do for them, right? This is really where the healing comes in, and vice versa. I think that's the ultimate goal, and gift of marriage is is really that mutual healing. So, Dave, what about you? What struck you most today?
Dave Schramm:Yeah, that's been really insightful. Thanks, david. A lot of things have stuck out. I love the stool analogy in that second peg that you talk about. That it's really self-care is not selfish, you know, it's making time, taking time for me, and it may not be like a okay, that a spa day or something, but it really is like okay, I need to make sure I'm in a good place, right, so I can, so I can take care of others, I can make sure that I'm I'm okay and I can think straight and process things and reaching out to others, the connections, that third, that third leg in that stool. So I I really like that um being able to and and every situation is different. That also stood out to me, that every single case there may be some commonalities right across a betrayal trauma, but every story is unique and different, uh, and painful, I think, across the board. Um, so there's not a set time frame for the healing and the hope and that journey. So super helpful. David, thank you so much for making time to join us today.
David Jones:You bet, and again, it is a heavy topic, a necessary topic, but I hope the message that comes through the listeners is there is hope. So thank you, it's been a privilege to be with you.
Dave Schramm:Yeah, yeah, thanks so much.
Liz Hale:I guess there's hope, whether we stay married or whether we continue on. True, I mean, yeah, I can't. We can't wait to bring you back and to talk about remarriage. It's just going to be a delight and and this, this wonderful job you and your wife have done in blending a family and living to tell about the good of second marriage and blended family. It's beautiful.
Dave Schramm:Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll have you on again, my friend. Thanks so much for making time again, david. We sure appreciate you and we will see you next time on another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection podcast. And remember, friends, it's the small things that create a stronger marriage connection. Take good care of you and each other.
Dave Schramm:At Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the show, be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at Stronger Marriage Life, and Facebook at Stronger Marriage, so be sure to share with us which topics you loved, which guests we should have on the show. Next, if you want even more resources to improve your marriage or relationship connection, visit StrongerMarriageorg, where you'll find free workshops, e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys and more. Each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, rex Polanis, and the team at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, rex Polanis, and the team at Utah State University, and you, our audience. You make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.