Stronger Marriage Connection
It's often said that marriage takes work. The Stronger Marriage Connection podcast wants to help because a happy marriage is worth the effort. USU Family Life Professor Dr. Dave Schramm and Clinical Psychologist Dr. Liz Hale talk with experts about the principles and practices that will enhance your commitment, compassion, and emotional connection.
More than ever before, marriages face obstacles, from the busyness of work and daily hassles to disagreements and digital distractions. It's no wonder couples sometimes drift apart, growing resentful, lonely, and isolated.
The Utah Marriage Commission invites you to listen and discover new ways to strengthen and protect your marriage connection today!
Stronger Marriage Connection
Navigating Relationship Conflict: Healing Through Connection | Dr. Ryan Seedall | #131
Dr. Ryan Seedall draws on his 20+ years of experience as a therapist to share insights about relationship conflict patterns and the role of attachment in marriage dynamics. He provides practical pointers to strengthen marriage connections, including how to navigate the demand-withdraw cycle and use anger productively.
• Healthy marriages require not just absence of negative interactions but presence of positive ones
• Couples need to recover from conflict, not just learn how to argue better
• The demand-withdraw pattern creates a cycle where one person's behavior triggers the exact response they're trying to avoid
• "Signal and respond" describes how partners communicate needs and respond to each other
• Anger serves as a protest signal that something needs attention, not necessarily a destructive force
• Technology creates new challenges for couples, with text arguments losing crucial nonverbal cues
• Mixed-faith marriages require special navigation of differing beliefs and values
• Early intervention is crucial - addressing small issues before they become entrenched patterns
• Attunement to partner's emotional state builds trust and connection
• Vulnerability, when met with responsiveness, creates deeper intimacy
Remember, it's the small things that create a stronger marriage connection. Find more resources at StrongerMarriage.org, including workshops, e-courses, webinars and relationship surveys.
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On today's episode. Dr Liz and I welcome Dr Ryan Seedall to the show. Ryan shares common relationship, conflict patterns and the role of anger in relationships, and how attachment can play a major role in relationship dynamics. Drawing on his 20 plus years of experience as a therapist, he also provides some practical pointers to help strengthen your marriage connection. Dr Ryan Seedahl was born and raised on a farm in Rupert, idaho. He received his PhD from Michigan State University in 2011 and joined the MFT program at Utah State University in 2012. He's a licensed marriage and family therapist and has been a practicing therapist for over 20 years. Much of his research has sought to understand interactional processes, including how people interact and how relationships change, with particular interest in attachment theory and its processes. He has conducted process-related research and scholarly work in the areas of couple conflict, couple support, intervention, grief and power. Clinically, he loves working with individuals, couples and families about a variety of issues, including trauma, infidelity, depression, anxiety, couple conflict and more. He and his wife Ruth live in Hyde Park, utah, and have four children. We hope you enjoy the show. Hey there, friends.
Speaker 1:Welcome to another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection podcast. I'm Dr Dave here with Utah State University Extension, along with Dr Liz Hale, our licensed clinical psychologist, we're aiming to bring you the very best that we have in valid relationship, research and resources, along with a few tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. All right, liz. Our guest today is a friend and colleague who I've worked with for the past nine years here at Utah State University. He's a professor and director of the Marriage and Family Therapy Program here at USU, helping countless students, couples and individuals learn principles and practices to help them in their marriage journey. Plus, he's an all-around great guy, not to mention a wonderful husband and father. Welcome to the show, dr Ryan Seedahl. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:I'm so jealous. You two get to go to lunch and I don't. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:He's right here on campus. Yeah, good friend, it does great work. Brian, you've been a therapist for more than 20 years now and have worked with and helped students work with hundreds, even thousands, I'm guessing with all the students who have then gone on to help people over the years, and they come with all kinds of struggles and challenges, and we typically end all of our podcasts by asking guests what they believe is the key to a stronger marriage connection is. But I'd like to actually start by asking right up front in your experience, what are some of the most important things that contribute to healthy marriages? In other words, ryan, are there some common characteristics of couples that you're like? Yes, these couples, they have it, and what is that? It?
Speaker 3:characteristics of couples that you're like yes, these couples they have it, and what is that it? Yeah, you know it's an interesting question because there's no one size fits all. I think over the years it's been really interesting for me to recognize that a lot of couples can have a really solid, good relationship and they can look pretty different. Of course, there are some commonalities, I think, that are important, and one of the things that I've seen more often than not is couples who come into therapy. They have certain things they want to work on, certain things that maybe are not quite, they don't feel right. It just doesn't seem to be where they want things to be. Maybe they're working through something that's happened in the past or something like that, and so certainly in my work with them, we want to address those issues. We want to help them become better at conflict or heal from, you know, something in the past that's happened between them or whatever. But you know, I think a lot of times what I've seen that is really really important, that not all couples think of, is just the building, the positives.
Speaker 3:I realized early on in my training that a good relationship is not just the absence of negative. I have to have really positive things and it's easy to get away from that. I think most couples one of the things I always ask when I'm at the beginning of the first session is just how they met. I want to understand their courtship, I want to understand how they connected and there's usually some really cool things that they've done and it's easy for couples to get away from that. And so a huge piece that I feel is in addition to healing from the hurts is being able to get back to what built their relationship in the first place.
Speaker 1:How do they give and receive love, what really works, and helping couples get to that place, I guess so really it sounds like reminding them finding that glory in the marital story, gautam, we'll say because they can almost be blinded, it seems like, by the struggles of the current challenges right now, that they can easily forget, um, what it was right that drew each other together, and those those early years and the dating and the funny things and little quirks, um, but it can easily be, uh yeah, overshadowed by the the current struggles.
Speaker 3:It seems like and, and sometimes it's remembering those things and just doing them, and then sometimes you know, couples get to a point where they're like we can't go back to that, but we can revise it in a way that our relationship can still be strong, can still have those positives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and moving forward. Yeah, Sometimes I'll talk to couples about marriage 2.0 and one of my couples actually said marriage 2.0, we're like on marriage 20.0.
Speaker 2:I think that you're right, we can't necessarily bring back the past, sometimes that is gone, and think life's so different. But to renew some of those things or put them in up to today's space and time, I love that. And of course, you know differences and conflict is a critical part of what you do. Also, ryan, what are some of the key points our listeners need to understand about conflict in relationships?
Speaker 3:Well, you know, I mean there's some great information out there related to how do we bring up difficult things. John Gottman has amazing things about a soft startup, and you know he talks about the four horsemen criticism, contempt, stonewalling, you know those sorts of things that are disruptive to relationships, and so I think it's a big thing to understand how do we avoid those things and how do we do something that's productive. I think for me, the thing that I found is that I really recommend that couples find a way to recover from couple conflict. I think sometimes we focus all of our energy on how can we conflict appropriately, and I think that's really good, but I think couples need to find a way to come back from it. How do they turn off the conflict? How do they turn on positive things in their relationships?
Speaker 3:And you know there's been a lot done that really has highlighted that that recovery from conflict, being able to kind of come back from it, is so, so crucial. And I've seen couples where, you know, unfortunately, it basically is conflict and then it blows up and then there's's a period of time where they don't talk and then basically eventually that thaws and then they can talk again, but they don't ever really talk about the issue and that's just an easy cycle. And so that recovery that repair, I guess, is another word is how can we actually repair when things happen in our relationships? So I guess that's one big thing I would highlight, above and beyond some of those things that maybe other people who have met on your podcast have mentioned.
Speaker 2:It's never going to be perfect, is it, dave and Ryan? No, not in this life. Right, not as mere morals, but so the imperative attempt. That's crucial.
Speaker 1:Thank you for that yeah right, you've seen um. You've not only seen a common pattern called the demand withdraw pattern, um, in couples, but you've actually researched a bit as well. Can you walk us through the demand withdraw pattern that so many couples find themselves in and often don't even realize it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, you know, I think, as I think about my even career as a therapist, one of the things that I've realized that I really enjoy doing is looking at patterns and cycles in relationships, some of which get passed down through the generations honestly, and demand withdraw is a pattern in couples. Sometimes people call it blame withdraw or pursue withdraw there's different names for it but in essence it's. I mean, I should say there are positive patterns too that we enact in our relationships and they get handed down too, but it's one that's maybe a little bit more destructive, and the more destructive ones. One of the big challenges is that my behavior actually brings out the behavior in my partner that I'm most struggling with, and vice versa. So pursue withdraw is like in moments of distress and kind of where we're aroused and struggling a little bit. Then one person seeks to engage the relationship we're going to fix this by engaging in the relationship. That's the pursuer and then the other person seeks to withdraw from the relationship needs more emotional space, and it might be for really good reasons, maybe. You know, I probably trend a little more pursuing.
Speaker 3:My wife trends a little bit more withdrawing. One of the things she's told me is you don't want to hear what I have to say, it might not have a good enough filter for me. And so this pursue withdraws. So I pursue, I say we've got to talk about this, this is an issue. She withdraws, she feels kind of like attacked or, you know, cornered, and then she decides I'm going to withdraw. And the more she withdraws, the more I'm like now, we got to talk about this, I pursue it. And the more I pursue it, the more she withdraws. And then, you know, nothing really ends up happening, it just sometimes it just blows up and then, and then we separate anyway, or eventually. Usually that happens, either away or eventually. Usually that happens either it escalates so badly, um, that it's not productive, or, um, you know it escalates.
Speaker 1:And then we, we have to have space from each other. So, okay, is there a? I'm curious, uh, a gendered uh you know pattern? As far as research, you know what it, it suggests, and how do couples I don't know, how do you help them get out of that see that and then kind of works, works through it yeah, you know, um, there, some of our gender expectations would be that maybe men withdraw more and women pursue more.
Speaker 3:My research didn't necessarily show that directly. There there are some evidences. In fact, one of the things that it depends even more than gender is who the issue is most important to. So, whether you're a man or a woman, if the issue is important to you, you're likely going to exhibit more demand behaviors. One of the things that my research did show and this makes total sense is just that the more I pursue, the more my partner withdraws, or the more my partner withdraws, the more I pursue or demand.
Speaker 3:So there is this systemic piece of something we're feeding off of each other In terms of how you handle it. You know, a lot of times I help a couple recognize that we are wired a little bit differently. I think the big fear for someone who's a pursuer is that they're never going to be able to talk about it and, in all honesty, sometimes that bears out. You know, the withdrawer withdraws and then they never come back to it and they never end up really doing anything and then what happens is eventually that plays out again, whether it's the same scenario or a slightly different scenario, and you know, I think the withdrawer really needs that space, and maybe their big fear is, yes, saying something that they're going to regret, or that they don't want to, or engage in a way that's not good. And so I think, a lot of times when I've seen couples handle this more healthily or more in a better way, I think one of the big things is that they're both very clear about what they want and they're also clear about what's going on for them.
Speaker 3:So, you know, sometimes it is as simple as calling a negotiated timeout, not a timeout that says we're done. You know we'll come back sometime in the future, but hey, I need 15 minutes. I really do want to talk about this, but I need 15 minutes. Hey, I need 15 minutes. I really do want to talk about this, but I need 15 minutes. And then I go, rather than gathering the artillery and getting ready for wars, I'm trying to just get myself in a place where we can both engage in a good way.
Speaker 3:And then, if 15 minutes isn't quite long enough, I go to my partner. I say, hey, is there a way that we can do another 15 minutes? Again, we really want to do this. Or maybe we say tonight at 7.30, let's talk about this. But it's trying to give the withdrawer a little bit of space, that they need to process things and the pursuer needs to get their ultimate goal of being able to talk about things. And so it's just, it's navigating that a little bit and the couples who can do it, they're just clear with what the overall goal is and then they're also, you know, negotiate and probably negotiate the timeout steps when you're not escalated out, steps when you're not escalated. You do that ahead of time and you just, you know, lay things out so that when or if the time comes that you start to escalate, you can.
Speaker 1:You both know what the plan is. I imagine right with some of this. It depends on you know some of the communication and saying, hey, you know, I would love to chat about this. It depends on, um, you know some of the communication and saying, hey, you know, I would love to chat about this, but I, I feel attacked. And I know you know what I read. Your tone goes up and I do, I feel attacked.
Speaker 1:So is there some type of this? Both of us, Okay, recognizing? Oh, I see the pattern and I see my role in this. I've got to learn to kind of keep my, my tone. You know, go slow and low instead of this. You know, goes slow and low instead of this. You know loud and and attacking. So the other person's literally kind of sometimes afraid, being like, hey, I, we've done this before and it doesn't end well, I, I'm not going. You know I refuse to. But then the you know what's wrong. I refuse to talk to you unless you call it that type of a of a thing. But man, it's both some recognition yeah, you know.
Speaker 3:Uh, just the thing that came to mind as you were talking is that sometimes it's really helpful for us to pursuers. They're trying to get their needs met in a way that actually pushes their partner away or that at least decreases the odds that they'll actually be heard need. That's really important and you want the partners to acknowledge that each other's needs are important. But how we're getting those needs, how we're trying to meet those needs, sometimes is counterproductive.
Speaker 2:There's another concept you studied quite a bit, Ryan a signal and respond. I'm not familiar with this. Tell us more about for couples, what signal and respond means in a relationship.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's actually what I was starting, just inching into a little bit with what I just said. So let me give you just a quick background. In a lot of attachment research, one of the names you'll sometimes hear about is Mary Ainsworth, and she did a lot of really cool research with mostly mothers and infants and just watched them and tried to understand. Back in her day the idea was you know, I think John Watson said there are serious knocks ahead for the over pampered child. John Watson said there are serious knocks ahead for the over pampered child and there was this idea that if you respond to someone's cry, that you're reinforcing the cry. That's a behavioral idea. And so she ended up showing that that wasn't the case and then she developed this laboratory procedure.
Speaker 3:It's called the strange situation, but the long and the short of it is that there's a separation between the caregiver and the infant. The caregiver leaves the room, is with another person, the child is left with another person and it's just there's a little bit of distress that the child feels. Well, they found that it's really important when the caregiver comes back and they look and see how the child responds when the caregiver comes back. And, as you might expect. You know, some of the children cry, they're really upset, some are distressed, but they're not crying or anything. But when the caregiver comes through the door they go straight to the caregiver and they put their hands up and they're like hold me, you know, and that is a signal. So one of the things that I did in my research with couples is I started to look, and it's actually really clear, in caregiver infant relationships and then I realized, wait a second, I think it can be applied to couples, but you do have some infants that they'll start towards the parent and then at one moment they'll kind of veer off because they're not really sure that if they signal clearly that their needs will get met. Or sometimes they're upset and they're still upset at the caregiver and they're arching their back or they're not being comforted by the caregiver, they might go to them, and so all of these are different signals. The last two are less clear, but obviously that putting your hands up and this is what I want, and then you're, you're, you get what you need, that's a clear signal in couple relationships. Sometimes we don't signal clearly what we want. And again, and there's two parts to that, but the goal with that first part is to try and help signal clearly.
Speaker 3:Responsiveness is the other part and in the work I've done with parents and children, we try and help the parent know that, even if they don't signal crystal clear, that maybe there's a way that they can respond appropriately. But it's kind of this dance of trying to get us trying to be attuned and trying to signal clearly and then respond appropriately. And the couples that you know that are successful. They have clear signals and then the other person's attuned enough that they reach out when it's most appropriate.
Speaker 3:And in fact what I've found is there's a question that sometimes people will ask. Maybe it's implicit but they'll will you be there for me when things go right or when things go wrong? Will you be there both? When things are going well, will you be there for me when things are I'm struggling, will you be there for me? And so the signaling, responding. I think a lot of the work that I do in therapy is to try and help partners signal appropriately and respond in a loving, sensitive way. You know, when you think parents and children, it's more one-sided. The parent needs to be the responder, the child needs to be the signaler, but in couples it's both Right, definitely.
Speaker 1:Just that ability to. I mean, over the years I've tried to become better at this With my wife. I'm over the years I've tried to become better at this really with with my wife. I'm definitely not perfect, but just to visually see you know, matt, she's got a lot.
Speaker 1:You know we've got a wedding coming up and the daughter having a baby and all these wet showers and plans and stuff I can sometimes just just see like, okay, I need to respond this way, or maybe she needs this or maybe what can I do for her. So it's more of this. You know, see it, I can see the signal that she's giving off is one often of stress or anxiety, and my ability to okay, respond or to not bring up, not pile another stressor on there. So I'm trying to and sometimes it's visual cues, or you know even tone of voice or you know those sides that she has, and so I try to. You know those size that she has and so I try to to see that and respond. But again, it's, it's taken us yeah, I don't know years to try to pick up on that. I guess I'm a slow learner, maybe.
Speaker 3:Well, and it and it's more complex than just me saying, hey, let me know when something comes up. I'm not going to know unless you tell me. You know I need to be looking. But it is true that it is nice when our partners can clearly let us know, hey, this is what I need or what. What some other research has found is that, you know, if I try and support you in a way you know, you just mentioned supporting your wife it's great when she can kind of let you know what she needs, because there's a term called support adequacy, which means you know how, how appropriate is the support that we give.
Speaker 3:You could try and support her by taking out the trash. You know when she actually needs a hug or something more emotional, or maybe she does need something kind of tangible, something done. But it's trying to navigate that and figuring out how you can really best show support. Sometimes you can try and figure that out just by being attuned and noticing, and sometimes it's really helpful when she says, hey, this is what I need, I need a hug. Or, yeah, take out the trash. Hey, will you go pay these bills? Or you know, whatever, this is what I need, I need a hug, or, yeah, take out the trash and hey, will you go pay these bills? Or whatever it might be. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:We'll be right back after this brief message and we're back, let's dive right in right. Can you talk just a little bit about um anger and its role in relationships today? Now, anger is always I mean, it's been around right since the beginning of time but it feels like um, you know I go, our sons, you know our kids play lacrosse and football and things, and it feels like the, the tempers and things are rising faster. The triggers and the meanness, the hostility is coming. I can't help it. Some of that is happening inside homes and relationships today. Can you tell us a little bit about I don't know the role of anger and I guess the destructive role that it's playing?
Speaker 3:today. Well, you know what's interesting? I think a lot of these sorts of things. It's like okay, how do we define, how do we define anger, how do we define some of the things that are similar to anger? And so one way that I could define this is anger has a function and a role. It doesn't have to be negative. Contempt, hostility, those are pretty negative. It's really hard to say that they're ever going to have a role in relationships.
Speaker 3:One of the terms that's used in attachment language is if I feel like separation, if I feel like something's not right, I will go into a protest. And so you can imagine that pure anger, rather than being hostile, rather than being contemptuous, it's a signal. It's a signal that, hey, something's not quite right. It's a signal. It's a signal that hey, something's not quite right. And it's a protest of, hey, something's not right, we need to fix this. It can encourage corrective action. It's kind of like, you know, pain, putting my hand on a stove. That signals wait, something's not right, get your hand off the stove, right. And so I think anger in relationships does not have to be negative, but it's what we do with it, and very often it does turn negative, because any time that we try and use our anger to hurt the other emotionally or anything. Sometimes that's the thing I feel hurt. What's the saying? Hurt people, hurt people, you know. And so then I say things that I don't mean or you know, whatever it might be, and so all of those things that's never good. But if you look at it as I, still care, and that's what we'll reframe in therapy. We try and help them use their anger productively and not push their partner away. But they still care, they still want. It's a form of protest, they want something to be different and that's good.
Speaker 3:To work with in couples is like a burnt out pursuer, someone who has stopped caring, and you see that in relationships, unfortunately. Sometimes you see partner one really wants to work on the relationship, partner two's uninterested, and that happens for years. And finally, partner one's the burnt out pursuer and they're done. And then the partner two really starts amping up and saying, okay, we need to do something about this and that's a struggle, right it. And so you know there's a balanced form of anger. There's anger towards self, like deflated anger. That's no good, that ends up being like shame, you know. And then there's anger turned outward, where I'm trying to hurt you and that's no good either. It's just this balance of saying, hey, this happened and it's not okay and we need to deal with it. That's anger. Rather than raising the temperature, the voice of you know that turns more to hostility or contempt. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, so the protest I like that word Bringing something up. Yeah, I give up trying to do anger, the conflict in a really healthy way. I you didn't give up on that. So it's a very small narrow window you're talking about, isn't it right? A healthy expression of that.
Speaker 3:I like that word and it does require us to define it a little differently than what we normally, because usually we say anger and we think that's bad. Right, and it can be if we define that in terms of hostility and contempt and those sorts of things.
Speaker 2:You've published research on attachment, connection and bonding in relationships.
Speaker 3:Can you please give us some practical pointers about how couples can bond more solely in their relationships. Yeah, you know, I mean I think a big thing and I kind of mentioned this before, but I've really found that we're trying to connect, we're trying to understand how we connect. Sometimes people are wired somewhat differently, so how I like to be connected with might be a little bit different to how my spouse likes to be connected with. That doesn't mean that you know saying kind words. If maybe she feels love in a different way than kind words, I'm not saying you don't do that Right, and she should be able to accept that those kind words are meant with love. But it really is trying to figure out how can we connect in the best way possible.
Speaker 3:And I think it's a two-part process where one is connecting when things are going well and being able to do that, but also finding ways to connect even when there's a struggle. And there's two terms One is conflict, one is social support. Social support is well. Conflict is the partner, is the source of my struggle, social support is. It may be my work, it may be other things that I'm struggling with, but the support and those processes are still the same and I think attachment theory really has helped me understand how can we reach out, how can we be there for each other when there's distress, when there's struggle, whether the distress is me or whether it's something else yeah, man, it's such a key and that's really why we call it stronger marriage connection.
Speaker 1:You know the name of our podcast, our of our podcast, because how important that, that bond, that attachment, those little things, that those bids, the responses, all that um are to relationships. It's really what people want is the stronger connection in their marriage many of them. I'm curious as to whether the challenges that couples are dealing with have changed over the past 20 years since you've been practicing with couples. Are there common challenges? Have you seen any upticks in challenges or specific problems that couples come in with? Technology may be one of those, that just that just wasn't around Technoferrets, those kinds of things. But in your experience and I work with the students, work with couples and individuals have you seen some again patterns or something, anything that has really like escalated, I guess, in I don't know, in recent years?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the technology because that made me think of a few new things. But there are some same culprits that haven't changed. You know, infidelity affairs, a lot of things related to parenting although that has changed with technology and different things of how to navigate that. Most couples still will say that a huge piece of why they're coming in as communication, and we always smile at that because usually there's more than that. Communication is important, but there's more than that, I would say, as I have thought about maybe some nuances that have emerged over the years. I think when it comes to parenting, I think technology is a big one. I think we've had to navigate and when you mentioned this it had me think of. We've had to navigate the use of technology in couple relationships because it's pretty interesting that I've had a number of couples who have conflict over text and they're big, long texts and for the most part I know there's some like some people decide that maybe doing it over text helps because there's a little bit more distance between you know they can think about things, they can process things. However, what I have found is if you have conflict over text, you know, you hear about what percentage is nonverbal in our communication. You know, I've heard up to 90% is nonverbal and you lose that when you communicate by text is nonverbal and you lose that when you communicate by text. And so one of the things that is challenging and I've experienced it with someone I texted with and I don't think they were even trying to be. They might have been trying to be a little snarky, but I read it in such a way that it was devastating to me. I don't even think the person ever realized it, because at one point I started to realize, oh, this person's just joking, this is just a fun thing and I didn't see it that way. And so there's a lot that gets lost with texting. I think more in Utah, one of the things that especially my students, when I supervise them, what they seem to navigate more and more are mixed-faith marriages. So one partner has transitioned, or they have other beliefs, transitioned out of a belief system, or they have other beliefs, and it's been interesting to help the therapist, help the couples, navigate that, because there's a lot of meaning that we give to spirituality and we take a lot of that for granted in terms of that that matches. And when it stops matching, then couples really struggle with. Okay, what do we do now? And there's a full gamut that's run in terms of some couples being able to live with it and thrive with it and some couples that don't. But I'd say that.
Speaker 3:And then I think over the last 20 years I think we've gotten way better at being aware of trauma and it's more of a common thing that we think about, that we talk about there's actually different types of trauma. You think of PTSD. That's life-threatening kind of single event, although it can happen over time too. But then there's some scholars really like the idea of developmental trauma that occurs over time. Maybe it's never a life-threatening thing, but it really causes me to question a lot of things in my life and in my relationship. And so there's a lot of different types of trauma, and trauma can be really disruptive to relationships because it's a feeling of powerlessness and when you feel powerless you try and cope by controlling and making sure that you can predict everything, and that can be disruptive in relationships either feeling powerless or trying to control things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what about our couples who are in their early years of marriage? Brian, many of our listeners, I don't think it's too unusual to have struggles those first years of marriage. From a therapist's perspective, what tips and advice do you recommend, and at what point should they maybe reach out for help from a therapist?
Speaker 3:You know it's interesting. The more I've thought about this, the more I've recognized that it is the most amazing thing for couples to come and do any work that's needed early and often I remember seeing a couple and they were a young couple I was younger at the time too but in the end they were kind of talking and conflicting about the TV and the remote control and internally I kind of was like oh really, you're arguing about the remote. And yet the more I thought about it, the more I realized I was so glad that they were there because there were patterns that we were able to work. They still cared about each other, they loved each other very much, but they were having these issues that emerged about seemingly small things, and we were able to work through the patterns and the cycles that they were enacting with relatively small issues and they still cared about each other.
Speaker 3:The thing that's the hardest thing is when couples have let things fester for 10, 20 years and then they try and work on it and by then that reservoir of caring and that love, it doesn't feel the same. And sometimes, unfortunately, couples start to rewrite history and you almost listen to them and they're not sure they ever liked each other, and so I think it is the most amazing thing for young couples to say something's not quite right. Let's just go in and get it taken care of, because it makes it so much easier down the road.
Speaker 2:So early, and often you said right Early, and often that's good advice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Amen. Hey, Ryan, I mentioned at the beginning of our discussion that I'd bring up this question again If you had to pick one. I know there's all kinds of keys to a strong marriage, but if you had to pick one, what's your go-to for a stronger marriage connection?
Speaker 3:Oh, you know, that's a great question. Oh, you know that's a great question. I think, in addition to all the things I've said, I mean I think it's really important that we give ourselves some race or some flexibility and we recognize again, there's not one size fits all. I think we see so-and-so's marriage and we think, oh, they clearly have it all together, they have it all figured out. What's wrong with me, what's wrong with my partner? And so I think a big one is being able to give all of ourselves permission to maybe not get it 100% right and to recognize, hey, get it 100% right. And to recognize, hey, let's work on this, let's figure this out.
Speaker 3:And one of the things I've recognized is I grew up in a very loving home.
Speaker 3:My parents loved me and yet they were far from perfect and I didn't necessarily see the best model of how you handle conflict and challenges and things like that.
Speaker 3:And, as one example, this is more parent-child, but my dad was a farmer and there's a certain way you communicate on the farm and it's mostly what you were talking about elevated voices, things of that nature, maybe some choice words.
Speaker 3:And I realized with my kids growing up that I got into lecture mode really easily, because that's what worked growing up, and so I think sometimes it's just being able to identify what models did I have, what do I do, especially under high stress, what do I resort to, what works for me, what's good, and then what do I need to set aside? And so, you know, with my kids it was really trying hard, when I felt that, to say, okay, what would teaching look like, rather than what would lecturing look like, because they're not the same thing. And so I guess that's one thing that I've learned over time with my therapy and with my life just give ourselves grace, and then also try and look and say what do I want to keep, what do I want to take, what do I want to learn? And to recognize that we're, you know we're we're constantly learning and evolving.
Speaker 1:Right, I'm got to say this. I'm so glad that you said that, and I don't know if anyone Liz has ever said that, because my mind goes back to couples and even these. I remember at these early years you know I might lose it or she might lose it, and we say something and then you know the tone's not helpful, and then we apologize, and then you know what, the next day or the next week we do it again and you know the tone goes up. I'm like man, you know, I apologize but I did it again.
Speaker 1:And so I think I think you're exactly right that we shouldn't expect this perfection that we're growing together. Give grace, forgiveness even of ourselves, and at the time I really am sorry, she really is sorry, and then man tempers get going again or whatever we say and do things, and so I think couples can get talking about patterns, because pattern are really kicking themselves and made like man I keep apologizing with or my spouse keeps apologizing man, they keep keep losing it. So anyway, I think that that's more profound than at least as it comes across at first for me. So I appreciate that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you bet, and you know, as a therapist, I would reframe that too. What you just said is see, you're still trying. Yeah, it's not going as you want it to, but I'm so glad you're still trying, because, again, that's when couples really struggle is when they get to that point where they don't feel like trying anymore.
Speaker 2:Apathy. Right, that is frightening, you're right. Well, dr Ryan Seidel, please tell us where can our listeners find out more about you, the Counseling Center there, atu, and any other helpful resources you'd like to share, please.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know. So I, yeah, like was said before, I'm the program director at the Marriage and Family Therapy Program in Utah State, so you can find me on the Human Development Family Studies website there and the Marriage and Family Therapy website. I've got a small private practice in North Logan called the Center for Couples and Families, cache Valley, and then, yeah, our students are amazing and they do great work and it's the Sorenson Center for Clinical Excellence, the behavioral health clinic. It has psychology and marriage and family therapy, and so I'm kind of in all those places. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Awesome Thanks, ryan. Well, for our listeners, we'll be sure to put links in the show notes, direct links to the websites where you can find out more about Ryan and the sender and the services there and resources offered there. And before we let you go, we'd like to end with a takeaway of the day. Ryan, is there a take-home message? Right, if you could give a shout out? So a principle, a tip for couples emphasize a principle.
Speaker 3:What would it be? I think you know I've used that word, but attunement. I think if everyone really tries to attune and really notice what's going on for their partner, I think the world would be way different if we were better attuned to one another. You know, our society is such where you know we're primed to say how you doing Dave, how you doing Liz, and you're supposed to tell me fine or good or whatever, and I'm not talking about in casual conversation, but it's just really important to be really attuned and to recognize Dave, how are you really doing Liz, how are you really doing? And to be able to talk about that.
Speaker 3:And I think what I've found I can't remember what happened the other day, but someone was super vulnerable and it just really led to a lot more closeness and a positive thing. And so I think that attunement and being able to attune to someone's vulnerability, it just brings closeness a lot more. And sometimes we put walls up and we don't want to show that, but that's how we gain closeness in our relationships, in our marriages and in a lot of what we do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that takes risk, right, it takes, I'm going to open up and if I get burned and I may close up and not risk again and be vulnerable.
Speaker 3:But man, a vulnerability, yeah, when it is reciprocated, shared, responsive, uh, amen, that is and the hope is, if you open up and I'm attuned, I won't miss it, and that that will be different. Because that's the big thing is, why would I open up if you're not going to respond? Because it does happen, you know, something's like oh well, you, it's been a rough day. Oh well, that's too bad, we'll see you later, you know. And so it's. It's trying to to do both. Yeah, love it.
Speaker 1:What about you? What's your takeaway in the day with Dr Ryan seal?
Speaker 2:You know I am touched by the signal and respond that question Will you be there for me? That's what I really want to know. It reminds me of Dr Sue Johnson's work a little bit. Ryan, right, are you there for me? Accessible, responsive, engaged? I love that. I think my husband's actually better at it than I am. Thank you for the reminder, dave. What's a rich nugget for you, my friend and with our time together with Dr Ryan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for all kinds of great insights. For me it's with dr ryan. Yeah, thanks for all kinds of great insights. For me it's the uh, the patterns. You know to pause and and look at patterns and it does. It takes kind of stepping out, because when you're in the pattern and in the cycle it's really tough to see yourself, um, in it. So it does take a little bit of a pause.
Speaker 1:Perspectives in this pattern, um, looking to say, okay, we keep doing this, how do we get out of this? What's my part in this? What is it that I really need? What do they need? And then I'm going to just say it again for couples, if you feel like you're stuck in this pattern, you need help, getting out, reach out, reach out for help. Therapists, counselors can be so very um, helpful Just another person to kind of help you both see and improve your relationship. So I hope that you don't, you don't hesitate um, but that you reach out for help when you feel like you need it. Ryan, thanks again, my friend, for for coming on and, uh, sure, appreciate you, your wisdom and your time today. Thank you, it's been a pleasure. All right, friends, that does it for us. We will see you again next time on another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection podcast.
Speaker 2:I just have to say Utah State is lucky to have you both Put your seat on Dr Schramm. Good for you and remember dear friends and family, it's the small things that create a stronger marriage connection. Take care now.
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