Stronger Marriage Connection
It's often said that marriage takes work. The Stronger Marriage Connection podcast wants to help because a happy marriage is worth the effort. USU Family Life Professor Dr. Dave Schramm and Clinical Psychologist Dr. Liz Hale talk with experts about the principles and practices that will enhance your commitment, compassion, and emotional connection.
More than ever before, marriages face obstacles, from the busyness of work and daily hassles to disagreements and digital distractions. It's no wonder couples sometimes drift apart, growing resentful, lonely, and isolated.
The Utah Marriage Commission invites you to listen and discover new ways to strengthen and protect your marriage connection today!
Stronger Marriage Connection
Gottman's Science of Love: Practical Tools for Connection | Julie Sharon-Wagschal | #132
Struggling to understand what makes a relationship flourish over time? In this eye-opening episode with Dutch-American psychologist Julie Sharon, we uncover the science-backed secrets that separate thriving marriages from those that falter.
When couples find themselves locked in the same frustrating conflict patterns, the answer might be surprisingly physiological. Julie reveals how a racing heart (over 100 BPM) signals we've entered "fight or flight" mode—a state where productive communication becomes nearly impossible. Learn why taking a structured 20-30 minute break can transform heated arguments into constructive conversations, and why agreeing to return to difficult topics builds crucial trust.
The episode dives deep into the Gottmans' groundbreaking research on "bids for connection"—those small moments when we reach toward our partner for acknowledgment or engagement. Julie explains why couples who respond positively to these bids 86% of the time stay happily married, while those responding only 33% of the time face relationship breakdown. These seemingly minor interactions create what she calls an "emotional bank account" that buffers relationships during inevitable conflicts.
Beyond the research, Julie shares practical tools you can implement today: the stress-reducing conversation (listening without solving), effective repair attempts after conflicts, and creating a culture of appreciation and kindness. She emphasizes that healthy relationships aren't conflict-free—they simply maintain a 5:1 ratio of positive to negative interactions during disagreements.
Ready to transform your relationship? Start by looking inward at your own contributions rather than focusing on your partner's shortcomings. As Julie reminds us: "Slow down, take a look inside. Don't respond too quickly. Think before you act, think before you speak, feel before you speak."
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On today's episode, dr Liz and I welcome Julie Sharon to the show and we discuss practical tips and tools based on the research by John and Julie Gottman. From the importance of regulating emotions to responding to bids for connection and making repair attempts, you'll hear about several ways you can improve your marriage based on decades of research. You can improve your marriage based on decades of research.
Speaker 1:Julie Sharon Wagshall is a Dutch American psychologist, relationship educator and founder of the Center for Relationship Learning. She offers therapy and workshops for couples and training and consultation for professionals by using the Gottman Method for Couples Therapy. Julie has an MA in Counseling Psychology and a BA in Psychology. Primarily working within the local international community, julie has counseled clients from over 50 countries At her private practice. She helps distressed and disconnected couples to rediscover and reignite friendship and intimacy and improve their communication skills, often in long marathon sessions. Often in long marathon sessions. Ultimately, julie's mission is to support couples to become closer and kinder with each other so they can create safe and loving homes for themselves and their families. We hope you enjoy the show.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection. I'm psychologist, dr Liz Hale, along with the beloved professor Dr Dave Schramm, and together we are dedicating our life's work to bringing you the best we have in valid marital research, along with a few tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. Well, science says lasting relationships come down to two things, and any guess on these two particular terms, dave.
Speaker 1:Oh man, I mean friendship is what the Gottmans talk about, but there's all kinds of things.
Speaker 2:Yep, and you know what? I remember interviewing John Gottman. I was talking to him about the masters versus the disasters that he found in his research and I said who are these masters? Did they have perfect childhoods? What was it about them? He goes, you know, we can't really find a rule, a reason, but it does come down to kindness, isn't that beautiful Kindness? And then in some other research, generosity was the other term. But today we are thrilled to have Julie Sharon, a Dutch-American psychologist, joining us today. To have Julie Sharon, a Dutch-American psychologist, joining us today. In her work with clients spanning over 50 countries, she has followed the science of love and well, her focus is to help distressed and disconnected couples rediscover and reignite friendships and intimacy. Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection, julie Sharon. Thank you so much. You clearly love what you do and we love that about you. Can. Can you start by? Can we start by asking you is there a hope for love today? You know, I think even for those couples who might be struggling on the daily, where are we? Oh?
Speaker 3:I definitely think there's hope, otherwise I wouldn't be doing this work, and I guess the two of you agree right. So we're all hopeful, but people can struggle. It's not always easy, but there are so many tools out there and ways to make things better and everyone I mean most people would love to have a good relationship, so we do see a lot of people really working hard to get that good relationship.
Speaker 2:We do know more than ever before people really working hard to get that good relationship. We do know more than ever before, don't we, about what makes a marriage thrive. It's a good time to be married. I'm often telling my clients.
Speaker 3:That's a good point. Yeah, there's more and more research, that's for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's dive into that a little bit, julie, as you know right about the Gottmans and their know at the mid-1980s University of Washington kind of setting the stage for our listeners Couples were observed, at least in some of these studies, as they spoke about the highs and the lows of their relationships. All the while there's these electrodes, you know, plastered on their bodies that are measuring, you know, blood flow and heart rate and sweat, all kinds of things that they're measuring. And the couples were then sent home and interviewed upwards of six years later. And the bottom line even though a couple might look calm on the outside, it doesn't mean that they're calm on the inside, and that's what seems to count in a lot of their research. So during your sessions with couples, how do you instruct them, I guess, on this great insight and, more importantly, how do you help them with their physiology so it doesn't wreck their relationship?
Speaker 3:Well, first of all, I don't assume that I can see on the outside how they are feeling on the inside, and I don't assume that they know how they are feeling on the inside and I don't assume that they know how they are feeling on the inside. So we tend to think that we know when our heart rate is up high, right, but that's not the case. So what the research shows is that we're not very well aware of how fast our heart is beating when we're in fight or flight. And so what the research shows that Gottman and his colleagues were doing is that when couples are interacting and their heart rate is high, and sometimes even above 100, even though they're just sitting there next to each other having a conversation, it does indicate that they're in fight or flight and that their relationship is in trouble. And so we do have to measure that by using pulse oximeter. So in sessions I actually use a pulse oximeter. So I have my couples put. They pop on a pulse oximeter on their finger and we see where is their heart rate. Is it up high? And if so, let's take a break and first calm down, because if we have them continue their conversations when they're in fight or flight, those conversations don't go very well.
Speaker 3:But if we have them calm down, if they learn to soothe themselves, they are able to have much better conversations. It's amazing. That's what the research shows. So they had couples sit in the lab having a conflict conversation and when one of the couples maybe one or both partners their heart rate would go above 100, they would come in, stop the interaction, give them a magazine to read and watch their heart rate go down, down, down, down down and once they were back to their base rate, they would instruct them to continue the conversation and, as John Gottman says, it was like they had like a brain transplant, like they were two different people having that same conversation, while the couples, you know the the control group. They were not interrupted, so they kept going as they were. You know, their heart rate was up high and they were having conflicts and they really had bad outcomes in terms of that, those conversations so I'm curious, jump in here and and ask them a more like a practical question.
Speaker 1:I don't have these little, you know, these little things on my fingers at home. So, practically speaking, after they leave, are there ways the couples can kind of get a sense of OK, we need to take a break here because things are derailing.
Speaker 3:Yes, first of all, having the knowledge that this happens changes things for people. When they learn about this research, they start to notice it in their own lives and they start to notice yes, sometimes we do get into these fights and I keep repeating myself, doesn't go anywhere. And then when we you know, when someone leaves the room, you know we're really stressed and we can't stop thinking about it. You know they're ruminating on, you know what's happening in the fight and what they're talking about. So they do start to recognize that this happens and so they can bring it into their lives by noticing it in those moments. And we practice how to take an effective break and an effective break.
Speaker 3:What we know is it takes about 20 to 30 minutes to calm down, but only if you're really doing something that can calm you down. So if you keep ruminating, you're not going to, you know, calm down. So you really got to distract yourself so that your body can come back to its balanced state. And then, after about 20 to 30 minutes, you contact your partner. You agree on a time when to talk about it. It doesn't have to be at that moment, because it might not be a good time or you both might not be calm, but it's good to do it within 24 hours, because often this is actually really important.
Speaker 3:There's one person who wants to leave the conversation. They're like, hey, I'm flooded, I need a break. So they're in flight mode, but their partner is then often in fight mode and they want to keep going and they feel really abandoned. When their partner wants to take a break and they're worried you know there's a lot of things to say and they want to finish their thoughts and their sentences and they're not able to and it's really frustrating. They may feel abandoned or like their partner is never going to come back to the conversation. So you really need to make an agreement about coming back.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's great. Okay, so they can learn this Once they become aware of it, then they can, okay, catch themselves. Hey, let's talk about this and we're in this unhealthy patterns and we need to kind of halt, take a break right before we go off the ledge.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's good. You know, when couples talk about this, they're actually communicating about how they fight and they can make agreements about how they can do things better. Now, if people want to work on how they have conflict, they really can make changes if they both commit to doing that. And I think really important that they look at themselves, that they're not just waiting for their partners to change, but they commit to changing themselves. Take ownership of this process.
Speaker 2:You know, tina Turner used to ask what's love got to do with that, right friends? And now we're asking a different question what does physiology have to do with that? And it turns out a lot. You know, I got to be honest, julie and Dave. I have had a love-hate relationship with those pulse oximeters. But, julie, you've given me a renewed faith to get them back out again. You use them in a session, it sounds like. And how do you do that in session? Do you just hit pause on 20 minutes? Send somebody out? How do you use?
Speaker 3:them in the session. Well, if one or both partners, if their heart rate is really above 100, then we just take a break. I ask them hey, you take off your pulse oximeter, get yourself in a comfortable position, close your you know, close your eyes. We'll do a relaxation exercise. You know, total body relaxation, whatever type of meditation, breathing exercise that works for them. Sometimes people want to go take a walk, you know, and it tends not to happen that often in the session. Once it's happened, once they start to get the feeling, oh wait, it's happening, let me slow down. So they start to, instead of it escalating like that, they start to repair the interactions before the escalation, and that's really what we want. So, you know, it can happen that people really get flooded we call it getting flooded when their heart rate goes over 100. But ultimately we're trying to get them to repair the negative cycle before it escalates.
Speaker 2:The negative cycle. It's beautiful. I love that I'm going to get my pulse oximeters back out. You heard me say it right here. The negative cycle. It's beautiful. I love that I'm going to get my pulse oximeters back out. You heard me say it right here, david and Julie. You know Dr Gottman's next crucial discovery? It came in the way of those bids for connection. I really love this. It's true, what is a hit and what is a miss? And how could we do better in our marriage, julie, with these bids that our partners are often making?
Speaker 3:We miss, julie, with these bids that our partners are often making we miss Bids for connection are really the key to a strong relationship, I think, because when we are, you know, all the time in our everyday lives, we're making small bids just to connect to anyone. By the way, it's not just our partner, you know, you. You know, even when you step into an elevator and you nod at the person who's already in the elevator, for instance, that's a bid for connection, right, and you're just hoping for a little nod back. And if they don't give that nod back, you're a little bit maybe annoyed, a little bit rejected. It doesn't feel so nice, right, when someone doesn't just give you that back.
Speaker 3:So turning towards bids for connection is just acknowledging that kind of that small gesture that someone's trying to connect with you and it's very simple. To turn towards a bid and turning away is when you don't respond and that leaves a person really feeling a little bit rejected and not important. And when you do respond to bids, it makes you feel important, it makes you feel like you matter to your partner and that builds a lot of trust. That builds a strong, full emotional bank account, right, if you imagine couples having an emotional bank account, if that's really full, you know, there's a big buffer for when things don't go so well. So we want to have lots of turning towards moments so that we have a lot of positivity in the relationship, which we need to offset when there is conflict, which is usually inevitable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this concept of bids, Julie. I'm often asked you know if I could teach one principle in a marriage workshop or whatever. What would it be? And I always come back to bids because it's powerful, the research behind it right, that these types of interactions turning toward can predict up to is it 94% right? Can predict up to is it 94% right Accuracy, whether couples straight, gay, rich, poor, childless or not will kind of where that direction will go with their relationships. So it really feels like so much of that is at the heart, really the spirit of the relationship. Can you walk us through a little bit about some of the why?
Speaker 3:I mean what is this? Why is this so critical? Well, just imagine when you wake up in the morning and you turn towards your partner and say good morning and they don't say good morning back. Right, that's lonely, that's sad, that's disconnected, and a good morning back just gives you that little moment together. And we know this is so important because John Gottman and his colleagues did this amazing study in the early 90s where they had 130 newlywed couples.
Speaker 3:You know they were all just gotten married within the last six months. They were all equally happy in their relationship. You know they did all these questionnaires before they joined the study, questionnaires before they joined the study, and so they would stay one cup at a time in this. You know, great bed and breakfast on a lake outside of Seattle and they were being filmed and their heart rates were being, you know, monitored and even stress hormones in their urine was being checked and everything was being watched. You know their facial expressions and what they were saying and you know all day as they were just hanging out.
Speaker 3:And that's when they noticed the bids. They thought, wow, people keep making these bids for connection. And they noticed that there's three ways that couples kind of, three groups of responses that were possible either turning towards a bid you know, good morning and then a good morning back. Or a turning away response, which is no response, right? So good morning and then no response. Or a turning against response, which is really this kind of negative, kind of leave me alone, I'm busy, kind of response. And so they watched that. And then, six years later, they found that some couples were still happily married and some couples were divorced. And then they looked back six years earlier. What were those couples doing in that bed and breakfast? How are they responding towards each other? And that was the real big difference is how they turn towards or away. So the couples that were happily married, six years later they turn towards their partner's bids 86 percent of the time. By the way, it's not perfect, right?
Speaker 3:we're not expecting perfection from relationships or partners, because that's you set yourself up for failure there. But 86%, it's a good amount and the couples that were divorced within those six years, they only turned towards each other 33% of the time. That's a big difference right Between 86 and 33. It's huge. We're going.
Speaker 2:I don't have this down perfectly. It bugs my, bugs, my husband too, because we'll be driving in the car, julie and Dave, and he'll say, oh, look at that, and I have no idea what he's talking about. Look at that, it could be anything right. I'm actually writing a text while we're driving and anybody kind of get to those things when we're driving with his blessing and he goes, oh, you missed it, and he so wanted to share that. I've just noticed in marriage how important that is right when you look at blessing. So he goes oh, you missed it, and he still wanted to share that. I've just noticed in marriage how important that is right. When you look at that, you can enjoy and share something that's important to you with your partner. I got to up my game on that.
Speaker 3:Well, you know what, Don't be too harsh on yourself, because if you miss it, you can still say oh, what was it? I'm sorry I missed it, that's a repair right. And then you're still turning towards.
Speaker 2:Tell me, tell me what you saw. Yeah, I love that, julia. It's a great reminder on the repair right. Most important, biggest difference between happily married and unhappily is that happily married are not perfect, but they do repair, and they repair swiftly. Did I get that right? Absolutely, you're right. Well, we know that contempt is certainly the number one factor that tears couples apart, so please share what makes contempt so devastating to a relationship.
Speaker 3:Well, contempt is really a total lack of respect. When you have contempt towards someone, you're really looking down at them. There's this, you know, sense of superiority, and the receiver of contempt, you know, they feel really bad and it even affects their, their immune system. So it's, it's really our biggest predictor for relationship demise, but also it predicts, you know, poor health outcomes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it'd be just destructive, right that, just tears that I mean. If the whole point, if one of these needs that we have is connection and right bids for connection, that's like a human need, this desire for attachment and connection, that it feels like that contempt. You know, I don't feel connected anymore and then a repair attempt or forgiveness is really a. I want to feel connected again. You know, I'm sorry. I want to feel that, that oneness, yeah, that connection with you again. And I think one of the biggest ways, at least the strongest predictors, is kindness. Is that right? It's really. Kindness is king. The research I love the research, even in positive psychology, with Martin Seligman. He talks about. He says an act of kindness produces the single most reliable momentary increase in well-being of any exercise that they've ever tested. So even individually, kindness produces happiness. And then, when you put it into relationships, oh, my goodness, right, the stability. Tell us a little bit about what is it about kindness that is so powerful?
Speaker 3:Wow. Well, kindness also implies that even when you're upset with your partner, that you're able to be respectful and to understand that your partner has a different perspective or their feelings may be hurt as well. So it's also the sense of being generous with your partner, and when we have kindness in the relationship, you Well. Let me take it back a couple of steps. What we know is positivity in our lives it doesn't weigh as heavily as negativity does. So kindness has a big impact because you need a lot of kindness to offset when things don't go well. So we know also from that newlywed study that the couples that did well over time, they had 20 times as much positivity, meaning kindness, interest, curiosity, generosity, all these nice things. They had 20 times as much of that versus negativity. And also what came out of the research is that when they argue, they still had five times as much positivity versus negativity.
Speaker 1:So that kindness is big you know when you're kind to someone, that counts for a lot. We'll be right back after this brief message and we're back.
Speaker 3:Let's dive right in.
Speaker 2:What does that look like? You know, I've never asked another Gottman-trained therapist. What does that look like? That five to one? So in an argument, what are the five positives that might be happening? Julie, amidst the one like oh, you just ticked me off so bad. What is it like? A little bit of laughter Could be. What does that look?
Speaker 3:like it could be.
Speaker 1:It could also just be like uh-huh, fair enough nice oh that that came out wrong.
Speaker 3:Let me try that again. Oh sure, go ahead, or it could be, suddenly talking about something else changing the topic could be. Yeah, just have a lighter moment.
Speaker 3:And it's also how people are feeling inside, as they are interacting, it doesn't sit so badly because they're more regulated, like their heart rates aren't going up, their physiology is more stable, so they're able to keep it lighter. Let's say, even when talking about difficult topics, it's not to keep uh to, to avoid uh negativity, because what the difference is between the healthy couples, the successful relationships and the disasters right is the way that they express their negativity. So the way they express their anger, so they don't escalate it with criticism, with contempt, with defensiveness and with the stonewalling you know, those four horsemen. There isn't that belligerence. So instead of expressing these negative feelings in unhealthy ways, they express it in healthier ways. So it's not about repressing negative feelings and even when you're feeling negative, it can still be a positive interaction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I feel so frustrated that there's dishes in the sink right. I need a clean kitchen before I start dinner. Is that one of those?
Speaker 3:things yeah, exactly. So if it's said like that and then if your partner says, oh yeah, I get it, it's a mess, let me quickly clean up, then you know that's positive.
Speaker 2:I wish I could be a fly on the wall in some of those extended sessions. You see you have Julie like marathons right Two or three days. You just generally have a couple of favorite. I don't know Gottman exercises or something you do with couples that's like your go-to that our listeners and viewers could heed right now in their marriages. Do you have something that stands out, a go-to Well?
Speaker 3:one really positive exercise that we always do with couples before you know that we, they go off into the world and you know, continue, and hopefully you know, continue the positive direction they're going in is we do something called the stress reducing conversation. And the stress reducing conversation is just basically a hey how was your day, you know what's on your mind? Kind of conversation, and it's not about the relationship, it's just about how they talk with each other about stresses they may have in their life. And it turns out again from the research is that the way you have that conversation really makes a difference in terms of how your relationship will go. So if you have a productive, constructive and really supportive conversation there, even if it's just a couple minutes, it buffers your relationship from turning negative.
Speaker 3:So couples that do well on this and these are kind of the key takeaways for this exercise is you don't want to jump in with solutions. You don't want to criticize your partner. So if they're really stressed, you don't want to stress them out by blaming them for being in that type of situation. And you don't want to dismiss their stress, a situation and you don't want to, you know, dismiss their stress. So what we just want to do is just listen, be interested, ask questions, show empathy, show understanding and that's it. You don't need to solve anything, you don't need to make it go away. It's okay that they're stressed, you can just be on their side. No, you don't want to be on the you know, the so called enemy side. You want to be on the so-called enemy side. You want to be on your partner's side, and when couples get good at that, it really, really makes their relationship great because they have good conversations. Just their day-to-day conversations are supportive and connected. They're updated on each other's lives. That brings a lot of good, strong friendship type quality into the relationship. So that I think that's, uh, that's a good one to an easy one to to um, to apply in your life.
Speaker 3:Although you know it's interesting when you learn about this and then you want to apply it, people suddenly realize, oh, my God, I gave a lot of unsolicited advice. Yeah, or you know, you know, maybe you know if your partner is complaining that you know that that their boss was upset because they got to work late, and then, and then the partner will say, well, you do always, you know, you are late all the time. I understand that your partner or that your boss would will say well, you do always. You know you are late all the time. I understand that your partner or that your boss would be upset because you know it pisses me off too. Yeah, and that that's not a good idea. That's going to make your fear or your partner feel really alone. So don't do that. People tend to do that, we all do, we do.
Speaker 2:It's natural. You know, yeah, just you know, don't do that. But people tend to do that. We all do, we do and it's natural we do yeah.
Speaker 1:Just utilize it.
Speaker 2:Or we want to solve right. You're in pain, so let me help you. Okay, that's the rest of the conversation. Julie, can you give us one more, one more. What else did you go to? What are the tool tip? What else do you use in these marathon couples, in your, in your sessions with couples that you love?
Speaker 3:Well, in terms of conflict, something that I encourage couples to do and I practice with them and it can take a really long time to do this really well is the aftermath of a fight or regrettable incident exercise.
Speaker 3:So that's another Gottman exercise. You'll find it online and what that is is that when couples have had an incident, a fight, something that is still sitting between them and they don't talk about it, they carry that. It's like they're carrying a heavy backpack with all these incidents and it's, you know, hurting their backs and they keep walking around with it and they're not able to get close. You know, intimacy is often a problem because they have all these unresolved incidents, fights, painful moments, you know, attachment, injuries, as we can also call them, and they're not processed. And this exercise is brilliant because it helps couples to just slowly, gently, one step at a time, to go through what happened, and not by jumping to I'm sorry's too quickly. First really understanding each other's feelings, other's perspectives, understanding why this was so painful Did it trigger anything from earlier in life, then taking responsibility, then apologizing and also looking at how can we prevent such a situation from happening again. So I love that one because a lot of healing takes place with that one.
Speaker 2:I love all those feeling words on that one sheet, you know, in that little pamphlet, because it helps you understand, like, oh, this is how I feel, right, I felt devastated, broken, I felt betrayed or whatever it might be, helps you get clear on that. That is how I feel. So how's those prompts?
Speaker 3:Yes, that's great, that's a great one no-transcript.
Speaker 2:It takes a while to go through that. Do you try to do them back to back Julie? Yeah, One partner and then the next partner shares. Yeah, absolutely yeah. That's the beauty of those extended sessions you have, sister Wonderful.
Speaker 1:Let me see if I can tie some of this together.
Speaker 3:We're talking about. We started talking about, with emotions, you know, feeling flooded and um with the.
Speaker 1:What is it called?
Speaker 1:the oxidant, whatever you put on your fingers. And then we talked about kindness and in my mind I'm trying to merge all these together and it's and it started to make a lot more sense because once we, if we experience strong feelings, in my mind it it turns us inward and then I can't see you or really care about you. So my perspective changes and if I'm feeling flooded, the last thing I want to do is be kind. Right, so all of these are so related. We get into a trajectory Strong feelings lead to strong words and actions, and it just takes us off the cliff, whereas we can back way up and catch it, check it, change it right. I talk about watching our temper, our tongue and our tone of voice. Take a time out and breathe, because what you're about to say is not going to be kind, and then it's going to take you even further, whereas a different trajectory helps us to be mindful. And again it feels like this strong emotions turn me inward, but these loving emotions can turn me outward, and then kindness is outward and I want to get your take on one more quality, and that in.
Speaker 1:Recently, I feel like I rarely talk about kindness without talking about I call it the flip side. I consider them almost two sides of the same coin and that is kindness and gratitude, because when someone is kind, hopefully the other person is grateful, that those two in my mind really should go together and that they're both outward. Kindness is not about me, gratitude it's not about me. It's never about me. It's about the other kind of this other-centered-ness. Any thoughts about my ramblings? Kindness and gratitude.
Speaker 3:I love everything that you're saying. Yes, and gratitude, yes, appreciation. What that gives us is that we're seen by our partners, right, we're valued. We really sense that, oh, our partner wants us in their lives. They really see what we bring to the table. They're noticing, right, that gratitude and having that gratitude together creates such a connection. That gratitude together creates such a connection.
Speaker 3:And you know one of in the theory of the sound relationship house theory, which is the Gottman theory about what builds strong relationships. Having a sense of shared fondness and admiration is so, so important in the basis of the foundation of the relationship the friendship. Really having that respect, that appreciation, being warm and kind, and you know giving compliments and saying I love you and, um, you know, being affectionate, you know having being, yeah, just showing appreciation verbally and non-verbally, that's what, yeah, that makes a relationship. So, you know, warm and nice and you know worth it, right, it's that brings so much connection. It's also, you know, where romance and passion lives. You know, with that kind of attitude, I'm grateful to have you in my life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, that's great.
Speaker 3:And you know you can think it, but you got to say it Right, so yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think a lot of good things and they don't come out my mouth and you're well, quite well taken, julie. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:Well, julie, there's a question that we'd like to ask each of our guests here on the Stronger Marriage Connection podcast, in honor of the name of our podcast, what do you feel like is the key, or keys, to a stronger marriage connection?
Speaker 3:is one key, but I think that people need to look at themselves more, and I'm a bit biased because I'm a couples therapist, so I get couples in my office that are blaming each other for the problems that they're having and what I really I think what I'm really trying to get them to do is to look at themselves, to be accountable, to take that ownership themselves. You know, am I being kind? Am I being generous? Am I showing appreciation? Am I turning towards bids? What am I bringing to the table here? Here, I think, looking at yourself, not jumping to blame, you know, into criticism, into contempt mode, saying hey, let's slow down. Am I flooded? You know, how am I doing inside right now? What am I feeling? How am I expressing that? So, and that's the inward work that you can do and it gives that. You know, that comes out as kindness, really.
Speaker 2:Yeah it makes you so much of a safer partner. Right, I know the kinder I am, I know the safer I make my connection with my husband exactly very much so where can our listeners really find out more about you and your tremendous resources and trainings? You train couples, couples. You train therapists.
Speaker 3:You've got it all going on Well so I'm in, so I'm located in Amsterdam, in the Netherlands, and I have. I founded the Center for Relationship Learning, so you can check that out, center for Relationship Learning dot com, and that's where I'll give workshops for couples and mostly also trainings for other therapists. So I give the Gottman trainings.
Speaker 2:Beautiful. We can find you online right. We can work with you online.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, yep, great Love that technology, yeah that's great, and we'll put those links in our show notes for our listeners, where you can find out more about Julie and what she offers Julie as we wrap up our time together, what would you say is the most important message we call it our takeaway of the day that you want our listeners to remember about what makes marriages thrive.
Speaker 3:Slow down, take a look inside. Don't respond too quickly, you know. Think before you act, think before you speak, feel before you speak man that's.
Speaker 1:I love that message. I call that learning to become a first responder rather than a nuclear reactor. A nuclear reactor right right Explodes, but a first responder is like okay, let's assess breathing and heart rate and do it in a calm way. That is more helpful. First responders are than a nuclear reactor Liz. What about you? What's your takeaway of the day with our time with Julie?
Speaker 2:So many. Right, I have a whole list here, but I do keep coming back to kindness. I love at the top of our star today, kindness and generosity. You know, I think marriage is rather simple. I think we as human beings can make it rather complicated, but I do think it's simpler than we often make it. Would you agree? First off, julie and Dave. Is that true?
Speaker 1:When he talks about right Julie, john talks about friendship and they're like man. After all these years, you know what is the secret. And they're like friendship. Yeah, just nice to each other, and when they're not, they seek to repair.
Speaker 3:Yeah, make up, you know. Yes, don't be too proud.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right. And for you, Dave, what's your top takeaway from our time with Julie today?
Speaker 1:Yeah, julie, first, thank you, Thanks for making time to join us to share so many tips and tools for practical things that our listeners can do. I love that as well. Kindness, liz. But I guess that one step before is those emotions. I think if people can just simply slow down or take a breath and get out of those unhealthy cycles, you don't have to react to those. Just learn to slow down, to pause, to take a breath and don't take those hooks right To react that we want to jump back in. It just sends our brain into a tailspin and we can't think clearly. And then we yeah, then we're rarely kind, so I just think of those emotions tied to that. That was kind of a little thought that came to me is tying that emotional part of the brain to unkindness. But if we can stop, then we're much more on a better trajectory anyway, with kindness and gratitude. So thank you. Yeah, julie, thanks again, thanks. We appreciate you taking time to share so many helpful tips and tools with our listeners today.
Speaker 3:My pleasure. Thanks for having me, it was fun.
Speaker 2:And we'll see you around the Gottman site, Julie, I hope.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, I just want to put a little plug in for our listeners and maybe we'll put some links to these, some of the articles and things that you have done, julie. I think it's been very helpful over the years. So appreciate that all you have done and that does it for us, our friends. Thanks so much for tuning in to another episode of Stronger Marriage Connection.
Speaker 2:Yep and remember, it's the small and simple things that create a stronger marriage connection. Take good care of yourself and each other. Bye-bye now.
Speaker 1:Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us a favor and take a second to subscribe to our podcast and the Utah Marriage Commission YouTube channel at Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the show. Be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at Stronger Marriage Live, and Facebook at Stronger Marriage, so be sure to share with us which topics you loved or which guests we should have on the show. Next, if you want even more resources to improve your marriage or relationship connection, visit StrongerMarriageorg, where you'll find free workshops, e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys and more. Each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, rex Polanis, and the team at Utah State University and you, our audience. You make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.