Stronger Marriage Connection
It's often said that marriage takes work. The Stronger Marriage Connection podcast wants to help because a happy marriage is worth the effort. USU Family Life Professor Dr. Dave Schramm and Clinical Psychologist Dr. Liz Hale talk with experts about the principles and practices that will enhance your commitment, compassion, and emotional connection.
More than ever before, marriages face obstacles, from the busyness of work and daily hassles to disagreements and digital distractions. It's no wonder couples sometimes drift apart, growing resentful, lonely, and isolated.
The Utah Marriage Commission invites you to listen and discover new ways to strengthen and protect your marriage connection today!
Stronger Marriage Connection
Keeping Marriage Strong When Life Gets Tough | Dave and Julie Bulitt | #135
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On today's episode, dr Liz and I welcome to the show David and Julie Bullitt. David works as a divorce lawyer and Julie as a couples therapist, and together they share unique insights about conflict conversation and keys to commitment for busy couples pulled in multiple directions. They also share practical tips for increasing resilience and overcoming struggles and mistakes. Julie and David Bullitt are the powerhouse duo behind the Bullitts she's a licensed marriage and family therapist, he's a divorce lawyer and together they've authored two award-winning books the Five Core, conversations for Couples and Secrets of Strong Couples. As hosts of Conversations for Couples, the podcast and frequent DC area TV guests, they share insights from their professional expertise and 38 plus years of marriage, parents to four daughters, two biological and two adopted. The Bullets offer a unique perspective on relationships from both sides of the aisle. We hope you enjoy the show of the aisle.
Speaker 2:We hope you enjoy the show. Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection. We've got the psychologist and the professor, respectively Dr Liz Hale and Dr Dave Schramm, together. We have dedicated our life's work to bringing you the best we have in valid marital research, along with a few tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. Okay, dave, so what happens when you take a top divorce lawyer who's married to a talented family therapist? I mean, it sounds like a joke, right? What happens when you go into a bar and you that's right, we're in.
Speaker 2:But the big question is you take this beautiful couple, talented therapist, top divorce lawyer, at the end of the day, close the door. What do they really say? What's really on their minds? Where do their specialties merge and where do they clash? Professionally, david and Julie Bullitt have seen life's most difficult challenges, from addiction, infidelity, mental and physical diagnosis and trauma. They have also even weathered their own challenges, like most of us do at home, including raising four beautiful daughters, two biological and two adopted, even dealing with addiction and mental health issues in their own home. Well, what they've learned about saving a marriage could fill a book or two, and it does actually. Dave, we're going to get into that and so much more with David and Julie Bullitt. Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection, our friends. Thank you so much for having us. We're looking forward to it. It's just a joy. You've been married for over 35 years. Did I get that right? What's the number? 38, not that we're counting, yeah, 38. I'm so glad I asked three years, not three more years.
Speaker 3:They do my jerk I wait to tell is the 17 happiest years of my life, which of course is a joke.
Speaker 4:And then I give him an elbow and say that yeah, yeah, but in some ways it's true because, as you know, because this is your realm, marriage is really and it's not all easy and not all beautiful, so there are definitely hard parts to being married.
Speaker 2:I think that's what makes you two so incredibly valuable is your vulnerability, your honesty, your candor To say you know 17 years of those. Is that what you're saying, david? 17 was really good. It is a joke, I know it's a joke, but nonetheless I do kind of get that. But I got married later in life so I tell you every year I was just so proud of you know what I mean. I just remember like first three years is like great Six years, okay, phew, I think we did. I think we're now getting past that hump that Dr John Gottman talks about Now. It Dr John Gottman talks about now has been almost a dozen years and I am just proud of every single one, because it wasn't easy. You're right, and I put a lot of you know love, sweat and tears into that. What do you think for the two of you has been the biggest key to sustaining your marriage through all of life's highs and lows?
Speaker 4:I would say being able to talk about things, whether they're, you know, positive or negative. So obviously communication, laughing, I mean humor is a huge part of our relationship. But we joke about things that you know, hard things sometimes, and you know sometimes we'll go. Oh, maybe that's too soon to joke about that, but I think for us it's been. You know, and really the value of sticking together, right, like you know, we can have bad times, but no, like we're in it for the long haul.
Speaker 3:I think you know, from my perspective, to be a little bit more specific you know, particularly when our kids were raising our kids, it was and we talk about the wide load in a marriage. But it really is sort of trying to understanding when your spouse has kind of had enough and needs to get pulled along. You think of the wide load when you're out on the highway and you see the big trucks. It says wide load on the back and you got to be careful at wide load and there's a car that's pulling it. So I think what we were able to do for the most part not always by any stretch, but for the most part was able when the kids were younger and we had some issues we're happy to discuss with one of our daughters and the ability to just sort of understand intuitively that the other needed a breath, needed you to step in, needed me to step in, or she needed her to step in.
Speaker 2:Having each other's backs right, like I got you and I can take it if you need me to. Yeah, it's beautiful.
Speaker 1:What a great combo team you guys are already. I can just sense it and feel it. David and Julie, how did your I'm curious your professional backgrounds you as an attorney, david, and you as a family therapist, julie? How did it shape your relationships on the home front?
Speaker 3:Well, I'll start this, don't take turns. So for me and in the old days, pre-pandemic and I'm going to the office every day and I'm seeing clients daily or going to court, and nothing I do during the course of an 8 or 10 or 12-hour day doesn't have to do with dispute debate arguing. So when I get home, what do you think is the last thing I want to do? And so I think, in fairness and I'm not saying that to be particularly solicitous, but in fairness I just kind of had enough by the time I got home. It was if she needed me to do this, sure we want to talk about this, that's fine. If she needed me to do this, sure we want to talk about this, that's fine. When the kids need to go here, no problem. I just the desire to avoid conflict was, I think, certainly again when our kids were younger.
Speaker 4:It's different now that we're almost empty nesters, but I think that was a big thing for me, right, not sweating the small stuff. And I think the flip side to what David's talking about is that we you know what I see in my office families that are having these couples that are having difficulties, and what he's seeing, which is people really having difficulties and getting out of relationships, is a sense of gratitude, of gratitude and a sense that you know, what we're kind of enduring at our, you know, in our home, within our family, is, you know, like it. Sometimes it stinks, sometimes you don't like it, you don't want it, but in, you know, in perspective, it's not that bad right, we can get through, you know, a messy room, or we can get through a screaming match and repair relationship afterwards, and so there's all these things that sort of come into play.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I love that. Do you mind if we probe just a little bit? Were there ever any moments when you seriously questioned your own marriage? And I think people will come into crossroads and arguments and we're going different directions. How do you navigate those times? I think a lot of couples are there right now, If not now. They've been there, they've done that or they're headed there. What do you recommend? How did you navigate it and how can other couples navigate those rough waters?
Speaker 4:Yeah. So first of all, I want to say, even though, as you guys are too trained professionals, the trained professional piece goes out the window a lot when you're within your own relationship. So I may know to use an empathetic response, I may know to come to your level, I may know to give positive reinforcement, but sometimes, when you're triggered or you're having a moment, you forget all of those wonderful techniques. So I just want to say that that it doesn't make things easier. You know, necessarily, that I'm a therapist, right? No?
Speaker 3:And to answer your question, we did I mean certainly from. I think I did talk for Julie to a certain degree too. We had two areas in our life during the course of our marriage. Now, thankfully, the last 10, 15 years, we haven't struggled in these areas particularly our kids have grown and financial issues have changed.
Speaker 3:But we had one of our four children who was particularly challenged and challenging is a nice way of putting it and Julie, the therapist, would think that we would need to treat her in a certain fashion from a mental health perspective, with medication and treatment and so forth. And me, the divorce lawyer, who grew up, you know, in the playground, just said you know she's a jerk, you know you got to deal with a jerk like I dealt with me. So we had a lot of rubbing up against each other over that issue and also we had, in part, resulting from that and resulting just from our bad behavior, we got ourselves in a financial hole, which led to a lot of disagreement, a lot of stress, a lot of looking at each other like maybe we ought to look a different direction. But, to answer your question specifically, we did deal with those issues. I'm happy to talk about any of that that you want to.
Speaker 3:Ultimately, we were able and Julie came up with this, we were able to lean in as opposed to leaning out, and the natural reaction when someone is irritating you in a relationship, rubbing you the wrong way, making you angry, is to say I'm going to get out of here for a while. But what Julie I hate to say she taught me because she's going to hold this on over my head forever. But what Julie sort of taught us and me was the better thing many times is not to do that, is to sort of lean into the issue in a nice way, not in a way that's going to make things worse, and so we had our fair share. But those are the two big areas relative to our children, one in particular, and relative to finances, yeah.
Speaker 4:And then the other thing that we talk about we work with couples, we coach couples and we've written a couple of books on strategies to help couples, and one of the things that we talk about is taking five minutes and not a week, and what?
Speaker 4:that reference is there are times when you need to take a step away a few minutes if you're feeling triggered or dysregulated, but to always come back to it right, like to not sweep it under the rug, because we know so many times that couples that don't talk about things, that don't deal with things, end up in his office.
Speaker 3:Thanks, sure yeah.
Speaker 2:You see it up close and personal, you know, in your latest book, award-winning book, I might add the Five Core Conversations for Couples. What are the five areas you cover? Just maybe briefly, and then to each of you if you could speak to what's the most crucial to you, if there happens to be one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that book, which was our first book our second book is Secrets of Strumming Couples, which took a little bit different tack, but that first book was actually born.
Speaker 3:We were on the beach, she was having a glass of wine and I was having a beer, and I don't know how the discussion started it was about 10 years or so ago now in which we're like we deal with the same stuff, right, the same problems come in for different reasons and, generally speaking, you're talking about what are the biggest areas of people in a relationship where they have conflict.
Speaker 3:Right, it's finances, it's parenting, right, it's intimacy, and then it's these sort of more general sort of we call them building block types of things. And so we started fleshing that sort of stuff out and that's what built that book. And that book is really it really is a 190-page conversation between the two of us, because we talk about these issues, and I think that the reason that that struck home with a lot of people is what Julie referenced earlier is and we'll tell you a funny story is here's a professional divorce lawyer, professional family therapist, you know, mental health licensed clinical social worker. What kind of problems could they have? The fact is we had a lot of. We still have, but sharing those, I think did touch a nerve with folks.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, because we we talk about what we see in our offices, but we also point the camera at ourselves, which is okay, this is what you know, this is what went on with us in this area. So we also dive into sort of the beginnings of relationships. We call it the building and filling of the relationship. What does the foundation look like? How do you guys communicate? How do you navigate difficult situations? What is conflict? What is you know? What is healthy conflict in relationship?
Speaker 3:look like People come to relationships from different places, right, Even oftentimes it has to do with faith. You know, people come to relationships with different backgrounds when it comes to faith. They come to relationship with different backgrounds when it comes to finances, you know, and those, and therefore you think about life in those areas differently. And if you haven't talked about that as you're launching, then when you're up there in the stratosphere trying to work together and one person, for example, is a big saver and the other person wants to spend, all of a sudden you see conflict.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man. So I'd love to hear more the five core conversations. I mean, are you talking about the money ones? Are those some of the ones that you're talking about Intimacy, or did you touch on some of those?
Speaker 4:the chapters. One of the core conversations is balance, the balance that you have between yourself, your self-care, and then what we like to call self-care, and then sort of work-life balance. How does all that work and fit into the world?
Speaker 3:Each section has several chapters in it that deal with that particular issue that we all deal with in relationships. Whenever you get married in life. Dr Liz, yes, other than maybe the parenting part, I don't know. Yeah, but you know, whenever you develop a relationship, these are main areas of conflict. I know Liz is married, dave, I don't know for you. Yeah, if you look back on your time married and think about where do we have disagreements, you know that's where they fall yeah yeah, oftentimes you're indeed right yeah, yeah, that's right, we've been married.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 26 years. We had a daughter. Uh just actually gave back from her honeymoon yesterday. Uh, yeah, we can. In cancun we have another daughter who's uh gonna get make us grandparents in July. She's been married.
Speaker 3:That's awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're going to have to think of this. So these cruises I mean this is like real life stuff. Right, these are things that they're going to have to navigate right at the beginning stages of marriage, that you really need to get on the same page with these important critical topics that can be very-.
Speaker 3:A lot of people, as you know, they kind of just wait. They say, okay, we'll deal with it when it comes up. And raising kids is another. It's a perfect example where it's just a minefield for looking at things differently, parenting differently, appropriately and inappropriately, much of the time too.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, yeah. I'm curious Do you ever disagree professionally about what a couple should do in their marriage, and how do you resolve those differences?
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's funny. You should ask that because we do. We do a lot of like fun things on social media and we've done something that we call should, should you, should we stay or should we go? Yeah, and we have couples write in different questions or scenarios and then we'll hold up our card like stay, go. No kidding.
Speaker 3:She stays 95% of the time. Yeah, I'm go 50-50. Yeah.
Speaker 4:So it's funny because I really, as a family therapist, I always try to see that there's a solution in the situation, and David oftentimes would be like they need to get out, like that's not okay. Yeah, so that's funny that you asked that question, but we do look at things differently.
Speaker 3:So what's an interesting dynamic? So when we started doing this sort of couples coaching together, you know people who would interview us would say you know, when are we going to talk to a divorce wife? What do you bring? You know, and it's a reasonable question. You know, and Julie and I do look at things differently, but I think what I bring to the table in that scenario is all that I have seen that's gone wrong. So if I I'm seeing it in these conversations and these sessions with folks, I tend to point it out and so I think what people most people have enjoyed some have not, it's not been a good fit for them have enjoyed, where Julie will say this is where I think we are, this is what I think you might consider and I'm like no, I don't think, I think you ought to look at it this way, and the fact that we disagree I think is a helpful thing in that sort of coaching environment.
Speaker 4:Not all the time, but sometimes. Yeah. The other thing that's funny about him is I will hear this divorce lawyer on the phone, because my office is down there, his is over here. I'll sometimes hear him tell clients or talk to clients about going to therapy. Have you tried marital counseling? Have you thought about doing this, or why don't you take a little time and then come back to me and see if you can work this out which I don't know if that's unique to him, being married to a therapist, but I think it's kind of cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, what a team yeah.
Speaker 2:That's great. I know a few divorce attorneys who will do that or refer them to discernment counseling. Refer them back to me, and I'm just so inspired by that. I think attorneys really have a very valuable take on this whole thing called marriage and divorce. So I'm always encouraging couples, especially those that are leaning out. It's like sit down, talk to a divorce attorney and I'm doing that in good faith that that divorce attorney will say this is not going to be easy. Let's talk about how this looks from my perspective, yeah.
Speaker 2:But, I'm careful who I refer them to. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:We'll be right back after this brief message and we're back.
Speaker 2:Let's dive right in yeah, well, people often ask me this next question, david and julie, so I'm going to pose it to you. But as professionals, you see everything like we talked about, from marital dysfunction to divorce. How do you keep it from affecting your own marriage or does it motivate you just the other direction maybe?
Speaker 3:Well. So it's more difficult in some ways now than it was when we weren't doing this business that we have together. So, as you know, we've got the books and Julie and I do our own podcast and we have our own full-time jobs podcast and we have our own full-time jobs. So it has become I have found I can't speak for her more difficult to stop the business from bleeding into personal life. So we might be done with the workday but we still have other of our work to do, and then, when I think we're done, she might still be on the phone or her computer responding to people or doing whatever we might be doing on social media or with our podcast or whatever and that does. Sometimes it takes a real effort to say, okay, we're not going to do that. And one of the things that we came up with and you asked about specifics earlier is we came up with this NoTek 90.
Speaker 4:And sometimes it's.
Speaker 2:NoTek 30. Notek 30,.
Speaker 3:NoTek 45, whatever you think you can, even if it's started. Notek 15, whatever it would be if it's. You're at home on the couch, phones are off, computers are always off and you're just hanging out. Maybe you're having a cup of coffee, maybe you're having a drink, maybe you're watching a show together. That's okay, taking a walk, it doesn't matter something, without paying attention to outside influences. I mean and and um, you folks are out west in utah and here. You know we go out on a saturday night and you look around and people are out for young, old, it doesn't matter what age on their phones, looking at their phones.
Speaker 4:You're on a date on their phone and we're like what is the connection piece? So I think the question that you asked it was really multiple questions which is, how do you all this stuff that's coming in, all of these issues that you see regularly in your offices, in your business, how does it affect you? And I think in part we answered the question related to technology and how that has been challenging for us and for so many people, because we constantly have it. It's not like we leave it at the office, it's in our hands most of the time. In our hands most of the time, but also emotionally there's that piece too.
Speaker 4:Is, you know, when you see people in tough situations, when you see horrific sometimes you know situations with people, how do you then, you know, like, pack it up and, you know, show up smiling or show up with not worrying about that person? And I think you know, as a therapist, most people will tell you is that they become like a little bit calloused in some way, is like we kind of get used to hearing, you know, traumatic stories and difficult information. But we also have really good compartments right. So we have those, you know, compassionate moments with our clients, and then we take those and we put them someplace and we keep them so that we can then show up for our partner, for our kids, for our own. It's an easy thing to do, yeah.
Speaker 1:Really, I love what you're talking about there. To me it comes to my attention. I like to say lack of attention leads to loss of connection and there's. I would argue that at no other period in the history of humankind have there been more things grasping for our attention, our emotional attention, our physical attention. Man that can drive couples apart video games, technology, sports, whatever. It is man, it's a balance, and I think it's really difficult, especially today.
Speaker 3:When I grew up. Here's a good example when I grew up and I had a question about something that was in school and I had to find out the answer, my father had encyclopedias in his office. The answer my father had encyclopedias in his office. He would bring me into his office and help me find any encyclopedia. I mean, there were books and they cost I don't know how much they cost. And then you got the supplements that you had to grow Every year, every year. But that was a time you spent that time with your parents, right, and now don't need to do that. Pick up your phone and say what is the civil law? Where did this? Whatever it might be and it's so easy and so much at hand that it does take effort- to push it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, the connection is definitely the connection in all areas, whether it's you're using the Starbucks app and you're running in to get your coffee, versus waiting in line and talking to the person making it or the person behind you. That loss of connection is everywhere and it is in relationships, within families, within couples, and it's really difficult. So it's important for you know your listeners, to hear you know whether you do a no tech 15, no tech 30. I know some families that turn off technology, you know, after a certain hour in their family, and I think that that's a great strategy really paying attention to making time without that technology.
Speaker 1:Another thing I often hear couples mention. I'll just ask them hey, how are you doing? And one of the most common answers now in recent years is like oh man, it's so busy. I'm busy, whether it's busy running kids around or busy or both working, it's just so busy. Tell us a little bit about maybe some common communication. You know breakdowns or we're going in different directions. Midterm, long-term relationships I mean, what's happening today?
Speaker 3:Well, let me start from the divorce lawyer standpoint and then Julie can talk about what really answers your question. But to sort of overlay for you is I get asked all the time what's the main reason that people get divorced, what's the biggest reason? And everybody always thinks it's adultery, it's cheating or it's financial Somebody was not being honest financially. Those are the two big guesses that people make all the time. But the reality is that neither of those are true. They happen for sure, but the biggest reason that I see and I represent my practice is now 75-. Those are true, they happen for sure, but the biggest reason that I see and I represent my practice is now 75-ish percent women, but regardless of gender.
Speaker 3:What you see is this malaise and it grows over time. So if you use this, you're going to have to. I call it malaise creep. Okay. So I mean what happens is think about it.
Speaker 3:You're a young couple. You started off, you're working hard because you want to save for a car, you want to save for a house, then you have a kid and then you have another kid and now you're running off to soccer and you're running off to lessons and you're going here and you're going there and you're working and you're moving all these parts, you're getting moved around and it's a year out goes by, and five years goes by, and 10, and 20, and then the kids are gone and these folks sit across the table from each other and it's not like they don't like them or they're mad at them, it's just that they're not connected to them anymore. So this sort of inability to do what Julie was going to talk about in a minute, inability to stay connected, to keep that grease in your engine, so to speak, leads more often. That's by far the biggest reason people come to see me. I just don't, you know, I don't want to live the last.
Speaker 3:I'm 54. I don't want to live the next 25 years like I lived the last 25. I want to go have fun. I don't want to live the next 25 years like I lived the last 25. I want to go have fun. I don't want to be with someone who just, I don't really know anymore. I don't really anything.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and we talk about that. Your relationship can't be like the elf on the shelf, which is something you can just put on the shelf and then get out when you're ready, or once a year or once a month. That relationships don't endure that very well. And we have done through our marriage, through our 38 plus years together, is we've always had date time, whether it's a date night, a date coffee, a date walk, and David was the one that actually was really good about that. He, you know, even when the kids were little, sometimes we would put them to bed and then go sit someplace else in our house that we usually would sit to make it special, you know, if we couldn't get a babysitter or a four-year-old, sometimes it was just she was in the bathtub and I would come sit down on the floor in the bathtub just so we could have some quiet time, Not just so I could see her in the bathroom.
Speaker 3:She's a part of us, by the way, but so we could have that sort of quiet time and it's different now.
Speaker 4:Yeah yeah, we always made sure that we were connecting on a regular basis and, like I said, it doesn't have to be a date night, it doesn't have to be a fancy restaurant, it doesn't have to be something specific, but really making time for each other on at least a weekly basis. I can't tell you how many couples I work with that come in and they don't remember the last time they had a date.
Speaker 1:Wow, sad.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So sad.
Speaker 2:So that's how you protect your own marriage from malaise.
Speaker 4:Yes, we protect, yes, and on a daily basis. We are also very good about checking in with each other. You know physically, whether it's a hello kiss, a goodbye kiss, or you know how are you Did you sleep okay, how are you feeling, those kinds of things. So I would say daily check ins are super important too. And then the weekly date nights or date days, and then, if you want to kind of just round it out with a monthly. What we do is a monthly goal setting session where we talk about the state of our union. Where are we financially, when are we with the things that we wanted to do together whether it's planning a vacation, taking a vacation, something we wanted to do with our grandkids and we check in once a month on how we're doing with our goals. I hate those things.
Speaker 3:But she's right, we started with a journal that someone gave us when they were on a trip. Oh yeah, and Julie started that, and it can be something that a lot of people don't really want to do, particularly at the beginning, but it's a good idea. You know, you say to people if you own a business, for example, right, and you have goals for that business, I want to go from one store to three, I want to grow from $100,000 in revenues to a million dollars in revenues, but we don't set goals in our relationships. And so if we take care of our business and our work lives that way, why wouldn't we try to do the same with the relationship that's probably the most important throughout your life, and that's with your spouse, your partner?
Speaker 1:Yeah, love that I mean. It's so, so important because if we don't, we just we naturally will drift apart. We don't have to do anything mean and nasty, we just have to kind of neglect each other and we'll just naturally drift apart. We don't have to do anything mean and nasty, we just have to neglect each other and we'll just naturally drift apart. Dave and Julia, let's talk a little bit about a major betrayal in marriage, and Dave kind of alluded to this as well earlier. When couples get the right professional help, their recovery and resilience can be really inspiring. I know some couples who've been through that who have bounced back even stronger. What are the keys to successfully getting through to the other side of these painful seasons of life can throw them Death of a child adultery, addiction, alcoholism, mental health issues, things of that nature.
Speaker 3:And that's what gave birth to our second book, which is called Secrets of Strong Couples, which I think sort of flows right into what you're talking about. And what we found, and the launch off point for that book was how do these people get through? When I have guys come to my office because they had a bad week you know, had a bad Tuesday I went out. Yet these folks had their son, they adored their son, having cancer for seven years. Yet they're stronger now than they were at the beginning. What did they do? How did they get through? What did they do? How did they get through?
Speaker 3:And what we found a lot of it many, many times had to do with faith, not just faith from a religious perspective, although that was a big part of it, but also faith in each other, right that they trusted the other to do their part, to do the right things. So faith as a major compartment was a big thing, and I think that trust, the willingness to sort of understand, you've got to row in the same direction. Those are things you have to do in any number of these issues, dave, that you're thinking about.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and the other really important piece to what we saw in the couples and we see in our own marriage is the, the connection, really making sure that you stay connected. And that's through, you know it's, it's through lots of things, it's through talking, it's through touching, it's through, you know, dealing with difficult things and, um, that was a major component was that all of these couples had carved out some time in their day or their week to come together and pay attention to so it wasn't an accident, it was intentionality.
Speaker 1:They like we've got to do things, we've got to schedule date nights, we've got to sit down and talk, we've got to make time for intimacy in our relationship. Because of these outside stressors, you're going to pull us apart.
Speaker 3:It sounds like, yeah, I mean it seems like yeah, I mean, you have a full day, you're exhausted. What do you mean? I have a bowl of ice cream and watch TV, like Tony Soprano used to do. I mean, remember this, just make some ice cream or have a drink, or just go to sleep or read a book, and unless you put it on your radar daily, it's not going to be there. I mean, for most of us, for most of us, you have to make that effort and then it becomes. You know, it becomes habit, just like everything else, which is what you want.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, is there a particular couple that has struck you through the years, David and Julie, where you thought to yourselves okay, now, this is why we do what we do.
Speaker 4:There's lots of couples.
Speaker 4:There's lots of couples, but in particular, we talk about this a lot, which is that there's a lot and you may even know them or be around them.
Speaker 4:There's lots of couples that have very high highs and very low lows, and you often see that with people where they're like, you don't know what you're going to get with them. It's like really good or really bad, and what we see happening is that a lot of those couples have trouble talking about hard things and then so they sort of like glaze over, glaze over, glaze over, and then there's this eruption that happens, and then things are really kind of crazy or not great, you know, in that time, and then they have to do a lot of work to get back to, you know, to more of a normal level. The other thing that I would say you know you don't always get to choose who you're around, but if you can find other couples that really like each other, that are friends and they're married or they're friends and they're in a relationship, hang around those couples, because what, what you kind of see around you is kind of, you know, it's contagious.
Speaker 2:One way or the other, right For better or for worse.
Speaker 3:One way or the other, right it's contagious, and the thing you know in terms of a thought for folks to keep in mind and this came up when we did an interview the other day which is, you know, pick a typical Thursday, friday, saturday, whatever it is, and your spouse says, well, what do you want to do? And you, saturday, whatever it is, and your spouse says what do you want to do? And you say whatever you want, and then you do something and you're kind of that person really didn't want to do that, and so how does that play out? And so I think that being specific, using more specificity in terms of what your wants, are, you know, I don't want to go out tonight, I want to watch a movie, or I made an appointment to get my nails done, or I'm taking my daughter out, or whatever it is as opposed to just saying whatever I think. Specificity although sometimes that might be different than what the person wants to do, who asked you the question ultimately is better than just sort of this vague, sort of general, whatever kind of attitude when it comes to it.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So clarity is kindness Lovely, it's a good one. And sometimes but sometimes we think if we're general and we say we don't care, whatever you want to do doesn't matter to me, we think we're being kind, but that's not really kind because in the end you're going to be resentful, right. So it might be better.
Speaker 4:I specifically remember the situation where we have four daughters and our fourth daughter was starting her first day of preschool. And it was a pretty big moment for me because I was mostly staying yeah, I was working in the nighttime, but mostly with the kids, on the front line with the kids and I remember I was taking her to her first day at preschool and I was just imagining all the things I was going to do Maybe go to the grocery store, maybe meet a friend for coffee, maybe whatever. And he goes oh wow, josie's going to preschool, Do you want to meet for lunch today? And I looked at him and my eyes got really wide and I said, honey, I love you, but no, I do not want to meet you for lunch today. I want to go do whatever the heck I want to do. Unfortunately, it wasn't eating lunch with me.
Speaker 4:No, it was not, but it was like you know, if I had just been like oh sure, you know, and met him for lunch, I probably would have been resentful, because I really looking forward to my time.
Speaker 2:And then, David, we say please don't do me any favors, right?
Speaker 3:I, frankly it was. It was better that she told me that than we were at Lawrence. It could have been grumpy. Yeah, I would have been.
Speaker 2:Please don't do that Right. Clarity is kindness. I think that's really brilliant. We should. And then let's work, david and Julie.
Speaker 4:Yeah, the other thing we always say is that clarity is kindness. We always say our goal is to put David out of business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, that's good, that's wise.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we have to put couples together and keep them out of the divorce. That's what we're working here for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I am grateful for you, david I think we do grateful for good divorce attorneys. Sometimes we just have to make a new decision. I don't know, I'd like to see that, but I love, I get the idea. I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hey, dave and Julie, there's a question that, in particular, we like to ask each of our guests here on the Stronger Marriage Connection podcast and I'm in honor of the name of the podcast We'd love to ask what is the key to a stronger marriage connection, and there are all kinds of keys. So what is maybe a key? Julie, start with you and then David.
Speaker 4:Having fun together.
Speaker 1:Amen.
Speaker 4:Enjoying each other, staying playful, staying, you know, not sporadic, what's the word that I'm thinking of? Doing nothing quickly without thinking about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, keeping it fun, yeah great I love it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Big fan of that, Daniel. What about you?
Speaker 3:So for me, which I have struggled with but I'm working hard at it, is assume good intentions.
Speaker 3:When your spouse does something that strikes you as irritating or directed to you and the initial response is to be defensive or to fight back. Assume that what they said or what they did was not to be something negative. Assume that it was positive, but maybe it came across in a different. So assume, I think, assuming good intentions, which again is harder to do for me a lot, but I'm working out, as I said. I think that's an important piece to a successful relationship.
Speaker 1:Oh man great, both excellent tips, thank you.
Speaker 2:Where can our listeners find out more about you, david and Julie? Your podcast, your books, other tremendous resources for couples and of course we're going to attach those to our show notes but Secrets of Strong Couples, your latest book, where can we go?
Speaker 3:Sure. So we have our website, wwwthebulletscom, where everything is there. Two books you can find anywhere, that's Secrets of Strong Couples and the Five Core Conversations for Couples. Our podcast is Conversations for Couples, which we just launched in early 2024 and comes out every two weeks. And we are on all social media platforms Instagram, Facebook Pinterest.
Speaker 3:We have a YouTube channel and LinkedIn as well. So we're all over the place working hard to try to help use what we have learned, both professionally and personally, to sort of you know if we can help folks here or there. That's kind of what this is all about for us.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's awesome. We'll be sure for our listeners. We'll put those in our show notes, with all the links to all of those. We'll be sure to check those out. And before we let you go, we'd like to ask all of our guests another question, that is, their takeaway of the day. Is there a take-home message, number one, or is there a nugget that you want us to leave us with before we wrap up?
Speaker 4:I would say make your relationship a priority.
Speaker 1:Awesome, well said yeah, David, what about you?
Speaker 3:It's certainly hard to top that. I would tell folks look forward, don't look back. So don't keep bringing up what happened before so that history somehow repeats itself. Push that in the rear view mirror and try to push your relationship forward. Look forward, don't look back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, excellent Great points, liz. What's your takeaway today?
Speaker 2:My favorite clarity is kindness. I thought that was really beautiful and I loved how Julie said it to David. It's like oh honey, I know I love you and I was hoping to do anything. I darn well, please, now that our youngest is in preschool. Yes, oh, I thought that was just so well started, it was very clear. What about you, David? What's the golden nugget for you during our time together with the Bullets?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, we haven't had very many attorneys on here, so it's interesting that perspective, david. Yes, adultery is out there and cheating and finances and all these other things that will happen. But man, that lack of condition, the communication, the regular intentionality and making sure that you're showing that love, expressing that making time for each other in that, yeah, that's just really hit home for me today, or your will, naturally.
Speaker 3:You pick this person for a reason. Most times it wasn't an emergent reason, although that happens this person for a reason, to be your partner in life, for a reason. So don't let one little detour keep you off the highway. Push back on or at least try it and I do try to with most folks, not with everyone. Sometimes when folks come to me it's clear that there's nothing. There's no advice I can give them or no recommendations to mental health folks or counselor, pastor, whomever that I can give them that's going to help. But most of the time I do ask them to explore that before they embark on what usually is a painful kind of process. Even in the best of worlds is painful. If it's not painful, you shouldn't have gotten married to begin with. There's got to be some pain in the divorce. To me there's some pain where you shouldn't have ever said I do.
Speaker 1:Wow, Well said. Wow. David and Julie the Bullets, it has been such a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Thanks so much for making time for us today.
Speaker 4:Our pleasure. Thank you for having us. This is great.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for joining us, friends, and we'll see you again next time. Another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection podcast.
Speaker 2:And remember it's the small and simple things that create a stronger marriage connection. That create a stronger marriage connection. Take good care of yourselves and each other. See you soon.
Speaker 5:Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us a favor and take a second to subscribe to our podcast and the Utah Marriage Commission YouTube channel at Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the show. Be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram, at Stronger Marriage Live, and Facebook at Stronger Marriage, so be sure to share with us which topics you loved, which guests we should have on the show. Next, if you want even more resources to improve your marriage or relationship connection, visit StrongerMarriageorg, where you'll find free workshops, e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys and more. Each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, rex Polanis, and the team at Utah State University and you, our audience. You make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.