Stronger Marriage Connection
It's often said that marriage takes work. The Stronger Marriage Connection podcast wants to help because a happy marriage is worth the effort. USU Family Life Professor Dr. Dave Schramm and Clinical Psychologist Dr. Liz Hale talk with experts about the principles and practices that will enhance your commitment, compassion, and emotional connection.
More than ever before, marriages face obstacles, from the busyness of work and daily hassles to disagreements and digital distractions. It's no wonder couples sometimes drift apart, growing resentful, lonely, and isolated.
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Stronger Marriage Connection
Why Being Nice Kills Passion (And What To Do Instead) | Alexandra Stockwell | #136
Dr. Alexandra Stockwell shares her journey from physician to intimacy coach and reveals how couples can create passionately intimate marriages through authenticity rather than compromise. She offers transformative insights on cultivating everyday eroticism, communicating with kindness, and deepening emotional connection to enhance sensual experiences.
• Developing "everyday eroticism" by making conscious choices to embody sensuality in daily activities
• Distinguishing between "nice" communication that suppresses authenticity and "kind" communication that honors both partners
• Understanding how "uncompromising intimacy" creates more passion than traditional compromises
• Identifying different types of conversations and framing them clearly for better understanding
• Using the question "How old do I feel right now?" to recognize when younger parts of ourselves are driving reactions
• Maintaining genuine curiosity about your partner through intentional questions
• Focusing on quality rather than quantity for both physical intimacy and date nights
• Recognizing that having a fantastic relationship is a learnable skill that anyone can develop
Visit alexandrastockwell.com to learn about Dr. Stockwell's coaching programs, book "Uncompromising Intimacy," and podcast "The Intimate Marriage Podcast."
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On today's episode. Dr Liz and I welcome Dr Alexandra Stockwell to the show. She offers some helpful tips from genuine kindness to vulnerability and openness and communication, and even not settling for compromise when it comes to differences in intimacy and you'll love her brilliant questions. She teaches all of her clients when they're feeling hurt or frustrated. Dr Alexandra Stockwell, known as the Intimacy Doctor, is a physician and relationship coach who helps high-achieving couples create emotionally connected, passionately intimate marriages. Author of the best-selling book Uncompromising Intimacy and host of the Intimate Marriage Podcast, she has been married for 28 years and is a mother of four. Dr Alexandra teaches that lasting passion comes not from compromise but from authenticity. Featured in the New York Times, cosmopolitan, rolling Stone and more. She empowers couples to build deeply nourishing relationships that model love and fulfillment for the next generation. We hope you enjoy the show.
Dr. Liz Hale:Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection. I'm psychologist, dr Liz Hale, along with the esteemed professor, dr Dave Schramm. Together, we have dedicated our life's work to bringing you the best we have in valid marital research, along with a few tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. What a terrific interview today, dave. I'm really excited about this. You know, as a physician and intimate marriage expert, for the past two decades, dr Alexandra Stockwell has been guiding men and women towards bringing pleasure and purpose into all aspects of life, but especially sensual intimacy. She has coached hundreds of clients on how to experience exuberance and joy, and everything from the daily grind of running a household to creating ecstatic experiences in the bedroom. It seems time that we have such a key conversation on ecstatic sensual intimacy. Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection, dr Alexandra Stockwell. What a joy.
Alexandra Stockwell:Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here and I'm excited for our conversation.
Dr. Liz Hale:Well, first of all, my friend, you practice what you coach in your own marriage, which we so respect, and I must just say how much I love how you traded in you said your old kitchen apron for this beautiful, flirty, fun French-made apron. I thought that was lovely. So you allowing our sensual self to show up starts with giving ourselves permission to enhance our femininity as women, for starters. Is that right?
Alexandra Stockwell:Yes, although that's not really how it came to me, in fact, the very moment when I did get rid of my functional kind of full cover frumpy apron and trade it with a French maid apron that's functional it's actually hard to find a French maid's apron that's like flirty and actually does the job. It's not just a costume. But that all began so, as you say, I've been married. I've been married 29 years now and I have four children. And at the time that I'm thinking of, we had kind of an open concept home. So I was cooking in the kitchen and the children were playing in the living room but it was all one big space with kind of an island separating them and it was a hard day. I think my youngest was maybe five months and they were squabbling and it just was a hard day, as happens in family life and parenting.
Alexandra Stockwell:And so I was at the stove cooking dinner and I was sauteing onions with a wooden spoon on my you know in the frying pan and I was just moving that spoon. I was so angry and I was tight and it was like I was pushing it back and forth. The spoon was a conveyor of how pissy I felt inside and suddenly it occurred to me that these onions were going to cook just as well if I enjoyed it. On know, onions have such a strong aroma. I wasn't cooking something bland and I just moved into more elegant movements, more connected movements. I found myself breathing more deeply and kind of swaying side to side with my hips and I just realized I could actually enjoy that moment. And there was a lot that came to me in that. First of all, it was my choice and I think that's really the most important thing that I could be angry moving those onions around the pan. Or I could feel like a woman enjoying the aroma, enjoying the fact that I inhabit a body like it was an invitation to a rich sensual experience for my senses, not sexual, sexual, of course, but sensual. And then I didn't want to be in a frumpy apron like let's go all the way and enjoy it. I didn't in that moment put on heels and lipstick to saute my onions, but I have on subsequent days.
Alexandra Stockwell:Really, this was one of the origin moments of what I've come to call everyday eroticism, because my journey is that really for the first eight years of my marriage I had what I call functional sex, where everything was happening, but it wasn't ecstatic. We didn't feel closer afterwards. It was nothing like what the poets describe and once I had learned how to really heat things up and align things and really look forward to times in the bedroom with my husband, it just seemed so sad to me that after all the attention and intentionality and individual and collective growth to achieve really passionate times in the bedroom, that that would only happen when he was done with work and I was done with work and the kids were in bed and neither one of us was stressed and the house was cleaned up. It just went from the whole potential to just such a small amount of time. And while I was sautéing those onions I realized, oh, I'm not looking to have sex all the time, but I am looking to feel good like a sensual, passionately fulfilled woman a lot of the time.
Dr. Liz Hale:So that was when I traded in my apron. That is very cool. So I mean, it's really about it's about our brains anyway, right it's.
Alexandra Stockwell:It's how we show up we're sexual beings it's about our brains, but it is not a mental shift. I mean sure, it's a choice how we feel, but I really want to emphasize that. I really think the shift is in relation to being embodied, that we can accomplish so much, feeling sort of like brains moving through our lives, and, yes, we can change our thoughts. But it's about you know. It mattered that I started swaying my hips, that I allowed the aroma of the onions to be rich for my senses to start experience and the sustained impact happens in the body with the sense experiences. That's beautiful.
Dr. Liz Hale:Especially for the femininity. I really get that Then, with masculinity for men. Is that similar?
Alexandra Stockwell:Well, I have yet to meet a man who has had a transformation through sauteing onions. So let me just say that very clearly. Won't be that. I think the journey is different, and because most listeners are women, I'm actually going to share the following. So once I tapped into this, this way of being where I felt so much better, I then really became a researcher in my own home, because that very evening when I served dinner my husband and I are sitting across from one another with two kids on either side it suddenly occurred to him to me in I don't know exactly at that point maybe 15 years of marriage that every time I sat down to dinner with him since we first became parents that I either ignored him, because my husband is a grown-up and can manage himself at the table and the kids needed my attention, or I interacted with him as a helpful co-parent. But I had not once sat down to a family dinner and looked at this man as the sexy, attractive, wonderful man who is my lover in life. And so I made once again an internal shift with my mind, but I felt it in my body. Once again an internal shift with my mind, but I felt it in my body and, to my amazement, he started interacting with me differently, with everything. I never told him what I was doing it was a private, entirely discreet research experiment but suddenly he started giving me more attention and a kind of attention that felt really good, and he asked me questions he hadn't asked before and I think I personally had some kind of a taboo that it wasn't right to cultivate the marital connection in front of the children, that that wouldn't be healthy for them. But I was experimenting that day and, to my surprise, as I connected with my husband and, yes, he did respond with more masculinity. In other words, there was more of that polarity which contributes to chemistry. But it happened naturally as a consequence of the shift that I made and he responded to, our children were calmer, there was much less minding your manners needed during that dinner, and so what I found was that my changing and showing up in a way that I'm comfortable being a woman rather than just a manager, uncomfortable being a woman rather than just a manager then he really responded to that, and so did the children, and they never knew until my children, who are young adults, now read my book and found out about it in the story that I share in my book on compromising intimacy.
Alexandra Stockwell:But I think I'll say one more thing, because I now have programs for men and I think one of the most important things is that for men particularly who want more physical connection with their wives, they often come Well, their wives they often come well.
Alexandra Stockwell:There's, of course, masculine bravado where, you know, many, many of the exposures in society teach men to show up and feel entitled and expect things which doesn't tend to work or anyway feel good.
Alexandra Stockwell:So then good men tend to compensate and go into something I call desperate acquiescence, where their bid for more connection, physical connection, attention, affection, often feels sort of needy and clingy and desperate and almost like wanting paternal approval, which just is not a recipe for good sexual chemistry. And so for a man sometimes it feels good to aim for more masculinity, but sometimes that can be unnecessarily intimidating, and so the thing I like to say to men instead is, rather than looking for validation and affirmation from your wife and then feeling better, to shift your energy so you feel better and then bring that to the interaction. So I tend to talk more about positive vitality and good energy, because masculinity has so many different associations and sometimes it's helpful, but a lot of times it sort of gets in the way with showing up in the way that, yes, between the three of us and everyone listening is more masculine.
Dr. Liz Hale:I got it. It's really crucial to distinguish the two. And going back to the power of a woman, right, I think we do want our listeners to really embrace that.
Alexandra Stockwell:Yes, and I think we often think and there is truth in saying it takes two people for a good marriage. They both have to really be dedicated. That is true, but it is so much more than people usually think that can happen when one person makes genuine change, because that shifts the whole dynamic, and then the other person ends up responding too, unless they're really stubborn.
Dr. Liz Hale:The power of a partner. Just one right, that's right, that's right. Oh gosh, because there's not enough hours in the day to discuss this crucial topic. What are the key elements, dr Alexandra, for developing an ecstatic sensual intimacy? If you had to just give us a short version, what would it be If?
Alexandra Stockwell:you had to just give us a short version, what would it be? Well, in the context of long-term committed relationship, I think it's actually quite helpful to look at everything that isn't ecstatic sensuality and sex as functioning like foreplay. In other words, everything, every little interaction brings you a little closer together or a lot or a little further apart. And the thing is that emotional intimacy it's not always enough, but it definitely is a prerequisite for ecstatic, sensual intimacy, because it's not the physical act that opens our hearts and fuels our lives, it's the physical act coupled with presence, attention, connection, attention put on nurturing emotional depth.
Alexandra Stockwell:We're not magic creatures that we can be sort of disconnected in our day-to-day lives. We can be sort of disconnected in our day-to-day lives even if things look pretty good, but I mean below the waterline, kind of disconnected. There's no magic switch that when we get to the bedroom it suddenly flips and we can be fully present and open our hearts and open our legs and just feel ecstatic together. That requires not having all of these blocks in our day-to-day interaction. So actually when I work with couples this is anecdotal, but maybe I don't know 75-80% of the time working on emotional intimacy just paves the way for really sensual ecstatic experiences, and then, 20-25% of the time, I do get into the specifics of touch and how people are interacting in the bedroom, but it's really how you feel with one another that makes so much possible, and I think we tend to miss that if we watch rom-coms or porn or even church teachings. How to genuinely develop emotional intimacy is really, I think, the prime place to put attention if you want ecstatic, sensual experiences.
Dr. Dave Schramm:We'll be right back after this brief message. And we're back, let's dive right in. Yeah, dr Stockwell, in the area of sexual intimacy and all other areas of marriage, there's this common thought that in order to have a good marriage or a great marriage, a couple needs to be good at compromising. But you're not a fan of this advice. Why do you believe that compromising is a one-way ticket to dissatisfaction or disconnection and infrequent or even unsatisfying sexual intimacy?
Alexandra Stockwell:I love that you asked me this question, because the most common relationship advice that is given is that you need to compromise. If you want a happy marriage, you have to be good at compromise. Be good at compromise. And the thing is, if you want a bland, contented partnership, then compromise is an excellent method. That is great. But if you want more of the kinds of things we're talking about, with sensual ecstasy and passion or even just sex that feels really good for decades, compromise will not get you there.
Alexandra Stockwell:Instead, what I talk about is uncompromising intimacy, and by uncompromising I do not mean that you're rigid or you always get your own way. It's not like that. It's more that, in the context of marriage, I think of compromise as withholding who you are, your deepest truth, your desire, sometimes your challenges, what is alive and really matters. You withhold that so your partner is more comfortable. Maybe you don't know how to say it, maybe you do, but you know it's going to be hard to hear. Whatever we withhold who we are, and then, as I said earlier, we can't bring our whole selves and self-expression to the bedroom if we don't feel comfortable sharing who we really are with our partner. So when it comes to uncompromising intimacy. It's not about being sure that you get your own way. No, it is about learning to express the truth of who you are in a way that your partner can receive it. And I'll give a super specific example, because this plays out on big things like choosing where to live or where to send your kids to school or things of that sort. But it also plays out in all kinds of small ways, like which drawer the silverware is in, or who's going to do the childcare pickup and who's going to do the elementary pickup. The child care pickup and who's going to do the elementary pickup. It's just so easy to focus on quote keeping the peace and compromising, and then you get peace but you don't get passion.
Alexandra Stockwell:So an example of this would be let's say there's a family and the husband and children love Italian food, pizza, pasta and so forth, and the wife loves Thai food. She just loves Thai food. But for years, whenever the family goes out to eat, they end up going for Italian, because then she knows her husband's going to be happy, the kids are going to find something easy to eat. It just seems like the most expedient thing to do. We've all been there, maybe not with Italian and Thai food, but some version of this. And so the compromise form would be that she just compromises. In fact they don't even discuss it when they say they're going out to eat. It's just understood, they're going to Italian. She's almost forgotten how much she loves Thai food, but maybe listening to this she remembers.
Alexandra Stockwell:And then there are a few options. One is that they could you know, the husband and kids could have something to eat, have a sandwich before they go, and then go to the Thai restaurant and just I don't know have some soup or something, and she can enjoy what she wants. They could get takeout from both places and eat at a park. I mean, she could go for Thai food and the father could take the kids for Italian and they could meet up afterwards, and also she could just say to him. And also she could just say to him I'm glad to go for Italian again, as we always do. But I just want you to know that for years I've been craving Thai and just chose not to say it, and I want you to realize the gift I'm giving that you wouldn't know unless I said this, and they could go out for Italian as they have before.
Alexandra Stockwell:But there is uncompromising intimacy at play, because she shared and he's received. It's not about where they end up eating. It's about seeing one another more clearly. It's about having the language to say that so he can be appreciative of the real love in her choice to go for Italian, rather than just taking it for granted. She feels unseen and there's this small disconnection, but all those small disconnections they can add up and feel like bigger disconnection. So it's really not about what they have for dinner. It's about how well they see and care for one another.
Dr. Dave Schramm:Does that make sense? Yeah, that's a great example. Yeah, that makes sense.
Alexandra Stockwell:And so with this, with sharing, I actually encourage people to start with really small, benign issues so that you learn to open up and share when it's not that important and where you go for dinner. That could be important, it could not be, it depends on the couple and the circumstances. But to start sharing things where you can get used to opening up and sharing without the actual content being so confronting, and when you do this enough times, then both of you trust your ability to navigate and your choice to choose one another through sharing rather than choosing the peace through compromise.
Dr. Liz Hale:That's very cool. I'm just trying to think what you had just said. It's peace, peace, but not passion.
Alexandra Stockwell:Yes, I actually. I think of peace as more kind of. This is just how I'm using these words. One could use these words differently, but I think of peace as more like monotone, monochromatic, and I am much more a fan of harmony in marriage, where there are many notes, many colors, but it blends beautifully, as opposed to peace being more of a leveling things out and more akin to compromise. I don't think of peace in this way on the world stage, but I do when seeking peace in a relationship. It can be a little passive peace, right, exactly, we're using that. It's not worth being self-expressed, self-expressed.
Dr. Liz Hale:but with harmony you can have a melody, you can be back up, you can add rhythm and it all works to make beautiful music it's so interesting why we tend to dial down the truth of who we are, and do women do that more than men, or men are also guilty of that?
Alexandra Stockwell:I think we tend to think women do that more, but I think there's been some real changes in the last I'm not being so specific, but I'll just say two decades or so. And yes, of course there are the intense, entitled, narcissistic, dominating men, but that is really not the majority that I. I mean, I don't tend to experience those in my practice and I don't tend to experience them in the world. Well, there are some in the world these days, let's be clear, but that, in terms of regular people, they tend to be nice guys, nice guys who, yes, they are compromising more than they even appreciate it.
Alexandra Stockwell:I was just talking to a couple two days ago. She's an ER physician. She knows what she wants. She has to be super functional in order to take care of lots of different people in emergency circumstances and she's married to an extremely competent man. He's not a physician, he's an extremely competent man with a lot of professional responsibility. And in the course of talking to them, she was clear what she wants, she was clear how she shows up and she should make these changes and he should make those changes, and this is what needs to happen.
Alexandra Stockwell:That's not the way of all women, but whether they talk that way or not, a lot of women tend to know what they want changed, how they want their men to change, and so I said to him well, what do you want? And in truth, he's like a lot of men who, if they're not in a professional context we're talking about marriage and it's not the space for a superficial answer like I just want to have some dinner or something like that but there's really room for the deeper question. I do not find that men are in the habit of asking themselves what they want or what would be good for them. They are much more oriented to how to be of service. They may be missing the mark. She may not experience it as so serviceable, but that is still where his orientation is and he's looking for validation and affirmation. And it takes courage and confidence for a woman to actually have room to hear what he wants.
Dr. Liz Hale:It does take courage and confidence right. We have to really start within, like how do I even really feel? Sometimes I don't even know how I feel, but that's where it starts, I suppose, alexandra, before we can fully steps to start with and building from there and so really the easiest.
Alexandra Stockwell:The easy step to take to move in the direction of everything we've talked about throughout this conversation is to just be curious. When you think back to the experience of being in love, it is filled with a kind of insatiable curiosity. What was your second grade teacher's name? What was your favorite vegetable when you were a child? Where have you traveled If you didn't have this profession? What profession would you want?
Alexandra Stockwell:We really can't get enough about the person we are in love with and then we get together and it's a beautiful thing that we know our partner and things feel stable and secure and comfortable and we put our attention on other things at the cost of curiosity, which is a very easy thing to bring back, because all of us are changing and growing, maybe in big ways, maybe in small ways, but one of the most profound shifts, let's say, is for either a man or a woman to start asking their partner a question that you haven't asked before. So it could be whimsical, it could be aspirational, it could be more personal I wouldn't recommend starting with sexual, but it could certainly get there Things like if you were to have dinner with any celebrity, alive or dead, who would it be and what would you ask them? Or if you didn't have this profession, which one would you want? Or if you could wave a magic wand and live anywhere in the world, where would you want to live?
Alexandra Stockwell:These are questions that the content it's not heavy, but it's getting to know a more playful, a more hidden part of one another. And you can also just ask, like, what was the most challenging part of your week last week? Or when you're driving to work, what are you daydreaming about these days? In other words, there's so much happening inside each of our hearts and opening and sharing of things like where you want to go to eat or how you want to be touched eventually. And when we're asking questions and listening generously, then we naturally notice our own inner world more and share that more too. So I really think the most important thing is to become curious again.
Dr. Dave Schramm:It reminds me of something, alexandra, that a professor and I've said this on previous episodes, his name is Davey Chandler and I was an undergraduate student and he talks about intimacy. Davey chandler and I was a undergraduate student and he talks about intimacy. Excuse me, intimacy stands for into me, you see, into me, you see, and so it's this, these questions, this curiosity that you're talking about, that really opens up and I can see vulnerable, you know you all, and it starts with these genuine curious questions. That's why I love that.
Alexandra Stockwell:Yes, I've heard that before as well into me, you see, and I think it's accurate. But I want to shift the focus, because when we talk about intimacy as into me, you see, it puts the onus on the person seeing, and I really want to put the emphasis on the person revealing. So the way to build intimacy is to reveal who you are to your partner so that they can see into you love that otherwise we're looking for mind readers and that's very disappointing. Love it.
Dr. Liz Hale:Otherwise, we're looking for mind readers and that's very disappointing.
Dr. Dave Schramm:Love it. Alexandra, you're a fan. You are a fan, right of being kind to our partner. I mean, it's an easy word to understand, right? You suggest it's far more complex in its application. You've got our attention, so tell us more about the complication of kindness, please.
Alexandra Stockwell:Yes, well, our conversation so far has been a good setup for it, because really the key is how do we say things to our partner so that they can hear them and not shut down, not become defensive or at least recover quickly? And the answer to that really is being kind. But I want to contrast it with being nice, because I think of being selfish or narcissistic. That is, being just really focused on your own experience and saying what you have to say, and we all know that that is bad. But I think of the opposite end of the spectrum, being nice as focusing on the other person's experience and not honoring your own enough. And so being nice is much better for society in general and much better for keeping the peace, but it is not much better for cultivating passion. I think of kindness as really the balance of honoring your own experience, not dialing down at all what you have to say, but really saying it in a way that honors your partner's experience too. This is not dumping on your partner, this is not dropping a truth bomb of something that is important to you that he never knew about before. No, it is staying calibrated, honoring yourself, not giving that up at all, all while really honoring and staying attuned to your partner's experience. So I think of that as really the fundamental element in being kind, and because we tend to think that good communication has to do with how the speaker speaks. Like it's very easy to think, oh, I just need to say, oh, I just need to say it. But no, you really need to say it with attunement, without ignoring how it's landing. So maybe something that if you're going to tell your girlfriend, you might just say the whole paragraph, but maybe when talking to your husband, you say a sentence and then pause. That would be kind to let him digest and see if he has any questions before you continue with the next sentence.
Alexandra Stockwell:The two practical things that most contribute to kindness are the pace and the tone. The tone most of all, and the tone, the tone most of all. I've just been so surprised things that I thought I could never ever say to my husband that I can say to my husband with a gentle, kind tone. I'm aiming to model it now that you can feel my carefulness and care without kind of cutting corners on what I want to communicate, and often that's going to mean I'm breathing fully and speaking more slowly, as opposed to the exact same information which if I'm saying it with resentment and anger and just profound disappointment or whatever feelings I have underneath those feelings are going to get you a response that is totally different than those same words and concepts spoken with more care.
Alexandra Stockwell:So one of I think the biggest keys to being kind is making sure you work through your own stuff so that when you make the communication to your spouse you can really be focused on his experience too journal, I don't know, go to a rage room, do whatever it is that you need to do so that internally you're more clean. But very often when people kind of work through the intense feelings, then they feel done and move on. Well, if you feel done and move on. Well, if you feel done and move on, then you're not bringing the growth into the marriage that is really needed for the kind of depth of connection that we're talking about. So I think one of the kind communications is to share. Share what you have solved, don't just speak up when it's a problem.
Dr. Dave Schramm:Yeah, I like that and that's what you refer to. I mean different types of communication that you have discussed. Is this what you're referring to? Recognize which type to use in which situation.
Alexandra Stockwell:Yes, well, one of the things that I think causes the greatest turmoil for couples and totally unnecessary pain and suffering is when one person thinks they're having one kind of conversation and the other person thinks it's a different conversation. So the classic thing that we're all familiar with is a woman shares how she feels and her husband responds with problem solving, and then they are both frustrated and disconnected and it wasn't helpful at all. But in every marriage there's a collection of types of conversations. It's not the same types in every marriage, but I think it's really worthwhile to think about it. So some possible ones, yes, would be logistical things who's picking up who, who's going to make sure we have dinner tonight, or whatever logistical things. There's venting, where you're just dumping the stresses of the day. There is fighting. I suppose there's maybe more visioning or daydreaming about the future, you know, setting intentions for how you want to do things. There might be conversations about extended family, and one of the very most important for cultivating emotional intimacy, and therefore sensual intimacy, is vulnerable shares. And so the first thing, if you're going to make a communication really probably couples are pretty dialed in about logistical communications and it doesn't need the framework I'm about to give, although maybe sometimes it does, but mostly to be really clear what kind of communication you want to make and then say so to your partner. So, for example, I really need to vent. Are you available to listen? And that needs to be a real question. He gets to say yes and he gets to say no, and his yes means a whole lot more if no is truly one of the options, and then vending can happen. And the way to really make this a win is to say to him what kind of response you want. Do you want a hug afterwards? Do you want him to say, yeah, that sucks, like what you know? What is it that you want from him? Because then that creates a win-win and he won't be as overwhelmed listening to all of that feeling inadequate because he can't fix it, because he knows all he needs to do is give you a hug afterwards, and he knows how to do that.
Alexandra Stockwell:If you want to make a vulnerable share, same thing, I have something vulnerable to share with you. Are you available to hear it? In fact, if I wanted to make the communication about wanting Thai food and I hadn't made any vulnerable communications or done it in this way before, I absolutely would say I have a vulnerable communication, and my vulnerable communication is that I can find something I enjoy at the Italian restaurant, but what I really want is Thai food. Because it's vulnerable to say that and to tell your partner what kind of a response you want, which when you start you don't necessarily know. So you get to change your mind, that's not a problem.
Alexandra Stockwell:You can say, oh, I know, I said I wanted a hug, but what I really want is for you to just sit here with me and tell me what you understood me to say, or whatever it might be like. You can discover what that is. But I think if every couple together made a list of types of conversations that the two of them have with one another, they might like to add to the list, or it might be complete, and then they're both clear when that's the kind of conversation happening that already contributes to harmony, emotional intimacy, each person feeling successful in the interaction.
Dr. Dave Schramm:We'll be right back after this brief message.
Dr. Liz Hale:And we're back, let's dive right in you know I love this that anytime we're stuck in a relationship. I don't I don't love that part, but I love your suggestion. Sometimes we have the same conflicts recurring again and again and no progress is being made. You suggest that what's driving that pattern is a younger version of ourselves. It doesn doesn't know how to zoom out, see the big picture and solve whatever problem needs attention. So you teach us to catch our breath. Step back and ask this one brilliant question.
Alexandra Stockwell:Yes. So I you know there are a lot of different purposes for marriage. No-transcript. Our spouses give us that gift, which can feel terrible, like salt in a wound, and it also can open the possibility of real healing and transformation. Also can open the possibility of real healing and transformation.
Alexandra Stockwell:And so when feeling stuck in some kind of communication issue that is recurrent, or just feeling annoyed or unseen or any of these kinds of feelings, I think one of the most powerful questions to ask yourself is how old do you feel right now? Now, if your partner can do it elegantly, meaning it won't feel insulting or like putting off, but really as a kindness, then the partner can also say how old do you feel right now? Because chances are you do not feel the grown-up, mature age that you biologically are, and so it's not the grown-up you that is having this conflict, it's the five-year-old inside you conflict, it's the five-year-old inside you, the 12-year-old inside you, and often just realizing that already shifts things. It brings some objectivity, it takes a sting out of it and it makes our partner less of a villain, because whatever wounding I had when I was five is what I'm bringing to this and it is a very helpful way to open up and shine light in our own personal blind spots.
Dr. Liz Hale:It's beautiful. What age? Even just asking myself, what age do I feel right now? I actually asked myself that question last night. I want you to know, alexandra.
Alexandra Stockwell:It really has stayed with me since I read that Did you discover something that you want to share.
Dr. Liz Hale:No well, I mean just that. I remember just like kind of wanting to be on the attack a little bit, and I just remember asking myself how old do I feel right now? I was definitely younger. It was actually all I needed to do was to realize I am not in my present self. It's really all I needed to discover, and just to kind, of course, correct yes, exactly.
Alexandra Stockwell:And so then you of course, with all of your talents, personally and professionally, know how to then make that shift. But let's just talk for a moment. When you have that awareness, what is the shift? So there are a few different options. They're not all going to work in the same situation, but hopefully one of these will so, kind of the deepest option, when I ask myself how old do I feel? And I'm, let's say, five, then I will say to my husband you know what I need to table this, and I will go journal and let my five-year-old say everything she has to say, and usually I will feel better.
Alexandra Stockwell:I may or may not have some nugget of wisdom. That I then go back and continue the conversation with my husband is always thrilled when this is what I do, because when I come back I'm just in a different state and we can converse as grownups again. That's one option. Another option might be to say, yeah, I feel like a three-year-old is not getting my way and just like, lean in, and that brings humor and connection, and then at least you know what this thing is about. Another option is just to say, um, well, when I look at it as the 56-year-old woman I am. I see your point. I'm like okay, then let's try this. You know that this is something you can lean into playfully. You can go deeply into it, you can just shake it off and it's all good. Either way, that question has served you in the moment.
Dr. Liz Hale:Beautiful. I think that's just really clever.
Dr. Dave Schramm:Yeah, I feel like through the podcast and episodes and we've had all kinds of professionals on here it makes me realize, actually, how almost unique my childhood was, because I had two parents who were just about as perfect angels, never raised their voice or swore at each other or at us. I mean, they're just. I look back and I'm like man. I don't remember any trauma or anything right, I had this amazing childhood, but I realized that is not the experience of actually the majority of adults. Is there a way, then, to examine our childhoods, to better understand what other childhood experiences might come to surface or different times in our relationship, because I realize that is, the more that I study this and interact with others, that man that can really impact our relationships, the way that we grow up, yes, although I want to say that our childhood experiences they don't have to be all about wounding for this point to be relevant.
Alexandra Stockwell:I know that we talked about it as though that were the case. So you've brought up something beautiful. You might have an experience, let's say, where I know nothing about your life, so this is entirely theoretical. So you're talking with your wife and she says something and maybe you just feel really good, like like you feel a glow spread across your heart and you can just keep going because there isn't a problem. That are, you know, a challenge that needs attention, but that can come from her having an expression on your face, which was the expression your mother had on her face when you happily graduated from kindergarten. You know, I'm clearly making this up, but, like, like, our bodies contain cellular memory of our influences and experiences, and so the wisdom and the growth and evolution available by getting to know ourselves better is not only attached to so-called negative experiences. I think the real question is what are the experiences that provide fodder for our own learning and growth? And I've forgotten exactly what you asked me, which was different, because I gave that response. Will you ask me again?
Dr. Dave Schramm:Actually that's very helpful because it often focuses on traumatic childhoods and these wounds and how they influence. But I look back and I'm like man I had the most amazing childhood with two amazing parents and wonderful experiences About as good as I think anyone could ever have. I just feel very fortunate, blessed really. So that's helpful because not everybody has that endeavor with. You know, childhood experiences can come flooding back back so that, um, I've never thought of it actually that way, with the, with kind of the twist on the positivity here, that all that reminds me of this situation or growing up or these fun, enjoyable experiences as well.
Alexandra Stockwell:Yeah, because the most primal parts of our brain does not have time as an orientation. Everything is the kind of the present moment, when it's relevant, and that is true of wonderful experiences, of complicated experiences, of neutral experiences, and for me I think the most important thing is to look at our experiences, whatever the quality of our experiences is, as the impetus for growth. For you to have had such a beautiful childhood, as you've described it, and be someone teaching about parenting and family systems like you, get to contribute something that is so's the truth in your body, mind, spirit, self. So I also am really not a fan of blaming parents for our misfortunes. That is just awful and also kind of contributes to the drive to be a perfect parent, which is actually your description, dave, notwithstanding not really a possibility. It's not worth aspiring to perfection. It's much more important to aspire towards authenticity and being willing to learn from the experiences you have, whether it's as a parent or as a child, when you're old enough to manage that for yourself, and really very much so as a spouse.
Dr. Liz Hale:To me the question how old do I feel right now is really more about the childish part of me.
Alexandra Stockwell:You know what I mean.
Dr. Liz Hale:I'm not getting my way, so I'm going to sound like a 12-year-old or six-year-old To me. That's what it was. I wasn't even thinking about my parents. You know what I mean. It was more about me. Oh, I'm feeling so selfish, yeah, selfish. Instead of in line whole woman. I think it's just brilliant.
Dr. Dave Schramm:Alexandra. Hey, before we let you go, as we wrap up here, we like to ask all of our guests a couple of questions that in honor of the name of our podcast Stronger Marriage Connection. What do you feel like is the key to a stronger marriage connection?
Alexandra Stockwell:Well, we've just been talking about it. I think the absolute key to a stronger marriage connection is for both people to be devoted to their own and one another's personal growth, because when that is present, no matter what else arises, you can navigate it well and go from surviving to thriving at every opportunity. I just think how good it can get has no limit when you're both oriented to really supporting and pursuing your own and one another's personal growth.
Dr. Dave Schramm:I love that. I love that you said growth it's not just like happy or happiness, happiness or something, but growth is more of this journey. Anyway, I love that, thank you.
Dr. Liz Hale:I think sometimes I even get a little discouraged sometimes. Where it's when I'm not perfect? Right, I'm a marriage therapist and I've worked on this for years. And yet I think the whole key is but am I better than I was last year? Right, making the comparison. Go in the right direction.
Alexandra Stockwell:Yeah, in terms of we were talking about curiosity earlier. One of the questions I really enjoy is what have you learned about yourself in the last week? If that's something you and your partner are asking one another on a monthly or weekly basis, it focuses your attention on how you're growing growing, yeah, and it's beautiful.
Dr. Liz Hale:Where can our podcast friends find out more about you, alexandra? All the tremendous resources you offer on these crucial topics of sensual and emotional intimacy, you are truly a gift, by the way oh, thank you.
Alexandra Stockwell:um, alexandra stockwellcom. That's my website. From there, you can find out about my programs, my book Uncompromising Intimacy, which is available on Amazon and Audible. I do private coaching with a small number of people, and I have a podcast too, the Intimate Marriage Podcast, where I go into all of these kinds of topics as well. So a good place to go next is alexandrastockwellcom.
Dr. Liz Hale:Okay, perfect, perfect. And then just one last question my friend often comes up within groups of friends or even clients is frequency. Can you please set the record straight before we let you go on frequency regarding, maybe, date nights and sex itself?
Alexandra Stockwell:Okay, well, let's start with sex itself. I don't think that there is a magic number when it comes to frequency. I think the important thing is that both of you feel good about whatever the frequency is, and I am much more focused on the quality of the sex than the quantity of the sex, although when the quality of the sex you're having is improving and really good, then you're going to want more of it sooner. But it's not about a specific frequency at all. It's about really feeling satisfied and more connected. In terms of date nights, I tend to think date nights are overrated for the following reason I tend to think date nights are overrated for the following reason If it's about dinner and a movie or going out and doing something that you do once a week because date nights are good, yes, that's a nice break from the rest of your life, but I am much more a fan of using the time together to really turn towards one another and deepen the quality of connection, and so it depends on how full your life is.
Alexandra Stockwell:I think once a week is wonderful, but maybe you ask one another a curious question every evening before going to sleep, in which case it would be more daily, but certainly once a week is beautiful, because then you're never more than six days away from time to really nourish the relationship.
Alexandra Stockwell:Although you know, I just did a post on social media about date nights in different phases of our marriage, because when our kids were young which was extended we have big gaps in four kids our date nights really were date nights at home and, yes, they were scheduled in the calendar and we turned towards one another.
Alexandra Stockwell:Maybe we had sex, maybe we didn't, but the relationship was nourished by that. Then date nights were about going out. Now we still have one child at home, but my favorite date is spending the night at a hotel somewhere. So I think it really depends on the phase of life and the most important thing is not when you leave home together. The most important thing is that both of you can count on a regular time to not talk about logistics, not about kids, not about work stresses, but really use that time to turn towards one another. And if you're doing that once a week so that's my answer you're likely to do it every day as a natural consequence of it feeling good, and it doesn't take that long to do it when you're making a point of doing it on a regular basis.
Dr. Dave Schramm:Well said yeah, yeah, well said hey. As we wrap up our time together, dr Alexandra, what would you say is the number one take-home message you want all of us to remember from our time today, and it may be something that you've already shared, but a takeaway of the day- what I hope the takeaway is is that, no matter how complicated or how wonderful your marriage is, having a more fantastic relationship is a learnable skill.
Alexandra Stockwell:So, whether that is sensual sexual expansion or expansion and communication, just wherever you are, having it be better is a learnable skill.
Dr. Dave Schramm:Okay, love it, love, love, love that. Liz. What about you? What's your takeaway?
Dr. Liz Hale:of the day. Thank goodness right, I'm still stuck. That it's learnable. I mean, I'm still stuck by this peace, but not necessarily passion. I think that's really fascinating to me and I love. I just wrote some notes here about using a gentle, kind tone and speaking more slowly, with full breath. I think that's really the magic. So thank you for that, Dave. What about you? What's the golden nugget you're taking away from? Our time today with Dr Alexander Stockwell.
Dr. Dave Schramm:Yeah, all kinds of things, Liz, and that was one of them. Actually, the tone of voice that we use in the paints. That completely affects how the message is received from the other person. And then something right up front we talked about that it starts with kind of a mindset and the curiosity and kind of that shift that you had with the onions. But then it was behavior. Right, if we don't act on the mindset, if we just kind of think about but don't act, there's no change that happens with it. So I love that combination of thoughts but then turning it into action. Yeah, it stood out to me today. So thank you for that insight. Yeah, oh, wow. Well, it has been wonderful. Dr Alexandra Stockwell, thank you again for joining us and spending time and sharing so much wisdom and helpful tips with us today.
Alexandra Stockwell:Really my pleasure. I love how the two of you play off of one another and are so welcoming so that we can go anywhere to serve the listeners.
Dr. Dave Schramm:Yeah, quite the team, quite the team right.
Alexandra Stockwell:Totally yeah.
Dr. Dave Schramm:Yeah, wonderful, well, wonderful, well, we will see you next time. That does it for us. We'll see you next time. Another episode of Stronger Marriage Connection.
Dr. Liz Hale:And remember friends. It's the small and simple things that create a stronger marriage connection. Take good care of yourself and each other. Bye-bye now.
Dr. Dave Schramm:Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us a favor and take a second to subscribe to our podcast and the Utah Marriage Commission YouTube channel at Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the show. Be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at Stronger Marriage Life, and Facebook at Stronger Marriage, so be sure to share with us which topics you loved or which guests we should have on the show. Next, if you want even more resources to improve your marriage or relationship connection, visit StrongerMarriageorg, where you'll find free workshops, e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys and more e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys and more. Each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, rex Polanis, and the team at Utah State University and you, our audience. You make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.