Stronger Marriage Connection
It's often said that marriage takes work. The Stronger Marriage Connection podcast wants to help because a happy marriage is worth the effort. USU Family Life Professor Dr. Dave Schramm and Clinical Psychologist Dr. Liz Hale talk with experts about the principles and practices that will enhance your commitment, compassion, and emotional connection.
More than ever before, marriages face obstacles, from the busyness of work and daily hassles to disagreements and digital distractions. It's no wonder couples sometimes drift apart, growing resentful, lonely, and isolated.
The Utah Marriage Commission invites you to listen and discover new ways to strengthen and protect your marriage connection today!
Stronger Marriage Connection
Transforming Conflict Into Connection and Radical Forgiveness | Chad Ford | #138
Chad Ford returns to share powerful insights from his new book 70x7, exploring how fear drives conflict and how radical forgiveness can transform our marriages and relationships. His work as an international conflict mediator brings unique perspectives on moving from destructive to constructive conflict patterns.
• Understanding that conflict is natural and inevitable in marriage—the goal isn't eliminating conflict but handling it well
• Recognizing common conflict styles: avoidance (burying issues), accommodation (always giving in), and competition (needing to win)
• Practicing the "risk of embrace"—opening arms in invitation, waiting, embracing, and gracefully letting go
• Moving beyond "forgive and forget" to true reconciliation through truth, forgiveness, justice, and assurance of change
• "Rolling away stones"—choosing to give partners what they need rather than what we think they deserve
• Transforming complaints into invitations for deeper connection
• Starting "close in" by practicing conflict transformation skills at home before tackling larger societal conflicts
Visit DangerousLoveBook.com or ChadFord.Substack.com to sign up for free conflict transformation resources, including conflict style assessments and articles on healthy boundaries.
Visit our site for FREE relationship resources and regular giveaways:
Strongermarriage.org
Podcast.stongermarriage.org
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/strongermarriage/
Facebook Marriage Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/770019130329579
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/strongermarriagelife/
Dr. Dave Schramm:
Dr. Liz Hale:
http://www.drlizhale.com
On today's episode, we welcome Chad Ford back to the show and we dive into the principles found in his new book 70x7. From conflict styles and fear to radical forgiveness and rolling away stones, chad shares principles, tips and stories that will touch your heart, lift you up and change your mind. Heart, lift you up and change your mind. Chad Ford is an international conflict mediator, facilitator and peace educator with over two decades of experience in conflict zones worldwide. While known for his ESPN basketball analysis, his true passion is peace building. After completing degrees from George Mason in Georgetown, he spent nearly 20 years directing BYU Hawaii's Peacebuilding Program before joining Utah State University in 2024. Author of Dangerous Love and 70x7, chad brings unique insights from working with diverse groups, from families to governments, transforming conflict into peace through his Christian-informed approach. We hope you enjoy the show.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection. I'm Dr Liz Hale, along with the beloved professor, dr Dave Schramm. Together, we have dedicated our life's work to bringing you the best we have in valid marital research, along with a few tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. All right, well, dave. I'm so pleased to have Chad Ford back. He's the author of Dangerous Love, transforming Fear and Conflict at Home, at Work and in the World, and he's back today by popular demand. He is a peacemaker and a conflict transformer who stands boldly in the face of fear in his work as a mediator and now professor at Utah State University. Well, today Chad is joining us to take a deep dive into his brand new book read hot off the press, 70 Times 7, based on conflict transformation. Welcome back to Stronger Marriage Connection, dear Chad Ford.
Speaker 3:It's a pleasure to be back and really deeply appreciate the work that you do right. So much of our conflict starts right in the closest relationships to us. Yeah, right at home. Oh true.
Speaker 2:Well, we're so glad to have you and you are really everywhere. I have the pleasure of being on your Waymaker email list and can follow you like the true fan that I am. So I love that, Judd, I'd love for you to share. Let's start right there, if you don't mind the meaning of Waymaker, just to give a small hint about this group and your current mission.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I do a lot of different conflict practices. Sometimes I'm a conflict coach, sometimes I'm working as a mediator between two parties that are in conflict. Sometimes I'm working with much larger groups and really do what I call conflict facilitation. But the thing that I think all three of those things have in common is that when people feel stuck in conflict, when they feel like they don't have any alternatives, when they feel like conflict is happening to them but they don't really have any way to navigate through it, that's the sort of work that I do. I help people who feel like conflict is happening to them but they don't really have any way to navigate through it. That's the sort of work that I do, right? I help people who feel like there's no way find a way, and it's hard work. They are going to have to walk whatever path that is, and so we try to make the way for other people to be able to walk when they feel stuck in conflict.
Speaker 2:I just love that. So you make a way out of no way, right? Yeah, I think that's way cool. Had you heard that before, dave.
Speaker 3:No no.
Speaker 2:It's weighing out. Of no way it's an old Irish proverb.
Speaker 3:So I can't say that I came up, came up with it myself, but as a as a as someone who comes from Ireland and my ancestors come from Ireland I always love pulling in Irish proverbs whenever I can. I love it, especially that one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's yours now, chad. It's yours now, chad. Liz and I are Ford fans. I guess you could call us. We love your great work that you've done in both books. You say, chad, that conflict is rooted in fear.
Speaker 3:So tell us where and how does fear most commonly show up in marriage? Well, I think that it shows up in a couple of ways, and one of the first ways we can think about it is our conflict styles that we bring to a marriage, and there's several styles that I think are deeply rooted in fear. The first, and by far the most predominant, is conflict avoidance. Right, I just am going to avoid conflict at all costs if I can, and I think a lot of people carry with that, this feeling that if I'm experiencing conflict in my marriage, something is wrong, right, something is wrong with me. Maybe I chose the wrong partner, maybe I'm the wrong partner for someone else partner, maybe I'm the wrong partner for someone else. Instead of seeing conflict as something that's natural that, of course, is going to occur in any relationship, but especially one as intimate as marriage, where two people are trying to blend their lives together, conflict is the most natural thing in the world. In fact, dr John Gottman has shown that when couples aren't arguing you know, dr John Gottman has shown that when couples aren't arguing right, when there isn't a conflict, that is a significant red flag that things are actually going south, and so I think, for a lot of couples especially, there's this feeling of I want to get to this place in our marriage where we don't have conflict anymore, when I actually think the right way to think about it is I want to get to a place in my marriage where I do conflict well with my partner right, but because I'm fearing conflict avoidance is far from doing conflict well, right, it's burying it until there's so much resentment and so much, I think, this sense of frustration with my partner in the marriage that then, when it does bubble up to the surface, it becomes destructive conflict and conflict that harms and destroys marriages. That's the most obvious way where I think fear just shows up. Right, Is that we're just the one that we don't talk about it, we don't discuss it, we pretend it's not there, we hope it goes away, but we don't actually actively step into it.
Speaker 3:But I think there's a couple of other ways that it shows up in marriage that they don't look like fear, but I actually think that fear is driving them. One is conflict accommodation, right, where what I do, what I think the right thing to do in a marriage, is just to give in to my partner Every time there's a disagreement, every time you and I don't see eye to eye. What I'm supposed to do as a good partner is look at you and say, okay, whatever you want, if it's important to you, then it's important to me, and this sort of selflessness. But I actually find that most of the time it's not very selflessness. It's actually quite selfish, because what it's saying is I think that you liking me is the most important thing, and the way that you like me is by me doing whatever it is that you expect me or want me to do.
Speaker 3:And so it comes with this deep fear that you won't like me if I bring my needs, if I bring my concerns, if I bring my desires or wants to the marriage, that you won't like me.
Speaker 3:If I bring my needs, if I bring my concerns, if I bring my desires or wants to the marriage, that you won't like me anymore. And so I'm going to accommodate, to be loved. And then competition, where I feel like if you get what you want, it's going to destroy what it is that I want, and so I need to win every conflict in a marriage. I actually think this is conflict in a marriage. I actually think this is also driven by fear, the fear of if something doesn't go my way, it's going to somehow be destructive to the relationship. Or maybe it means that I'm not right in the relationship and so I'm actively out pursuing winning in marriage instead of collaborating, and so I think that fear. It doesn't look the same in every marriage, right, but I think that the underlying thing that is driving this in each of those cases is a fear of conflict and the fear of somehow not getting what it is that I want or need.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, Well said Chad. So I'm curious then, what's the best way for partners to address these fears with each other?
Speaker 3:Well, I think one. There's conflict styles tests. We have one on my website at dangerouslovebookcom, but there's many that you can get out there. I think it's helpful at first to actually understand what it is that's going on. And when you take these tests, I think it's actually really important that you think about your partner when you're taking this test. There's general conflict styles that we have, but then there are unique ones that we have, in particular, relationships to people, and it's most helpful if I'm thinking about, in a marriage, my partner, when I am taking this test.
Speaker 3:And then I have to ask myself okay, why am I here? Why is this the style that I find myself using? And then I ask a couple of questions of my clients. One is it working? I already know the answer if they've hired me, if they've hired me as a conflict mediator, the answer is no, but I still ask the question. I think it's really important.
Speaker 3:You're doing this style. You're following a pattern again and again, there's a reason behind it. So let me ask you following a pattern, again and again, there's a reason behind it. So let me ask you is it working? And usually I'll get the honest answer no, it's not. Okay, it's not working, then why are you doing it?
Speaker 3:And a lot of times there's a long history of that. We learn our conflict styles typically from our parents. We learn it from past relationships. If conflict has felt dangerous or scary to us in the past, we find ways of coping with it or navigating it in a way to try to avoid fear or pain in the future. So what's going on? Is it actually working? And if it's not working, am I willing to try something different?
Speaker 3:And often where people go is sometimes in an opposite direction. That isn't any more helpful, right? So if I've been competitive, okay, I get it. What I just need to do is just always say yes, always give in. I just need to accommodate. That's what I need to do, and I think that part of my job as a conflict mediator or a coach or what have you is educating people about how to do good collaboration, and I just feel like we talk a lot about collaboration. It's a mantra that's used in organizations, but when it comes to actual training where I've been trained on how to collaboratively problem solve with another person most of the people that I encounter they just don't have that skill set. They want to do that, they're open to it. They just don't really know how, and because they don't know how, it gets frustrating really quickly and then they revert back to whatever style is most comfortable for them.
Speaker 1:So I love that, chad. So first, discovering what's my conflict style? And there's tests, there's things on your website asking yourself is this working Probably not? Website asking yourself is this working Probably not? And now, what can I do about it? Humility, this authenticity, approach to being open, to be like, okay, I can do things different, I can see things differently. Am I open to doing it? Man, I love it. Love, love, love.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and one other thing I'd add, dr Dave, is an acceptance that I just have to have that the goal isn't a conflict-free marriage. I have to accept to a certain extent that marriage and conflict go hand in hand. If I want to be married to someone, especially someone who is not a clone of myself, then I am going to be experiencing conflict, and I think it's that dialectic of acceptance about certain things. Conflict is inevitable, it's going to be happening in our marriage and there are things that I can change that improve the quality of the conflict and move it from destructive to constructive. It's those two things hand in hand, right?
Speaker 1:It's an acceptance of the conflict and a willingness to change the dynamics to improve it I just think that word chad, that acceptance, for our listeners right now are thinking, okay, my marriage is not off the rails. If there's, you know where we have this conflict. It's called normal right. It means maybe if we're stuck in different patterns, but man conflict, any two people are going to have differences, it's going to lead to conflict. So I love that acceptance.
Speaker 2:From destructive to instructive. Did I get that right? Constructive, constructive, there we go. Constructive, I knew that wasn't quite right. Right, instructive probably helps too, but constructive I like even better. So how does this way we handle conflict at home, so both in marriage and with children, as a family in general? How does that affect, you think Chad, our broader ability to deal with conflict, even as a society?
Speaker 3:Well, I think it all starts in the home, and when I work with organizations, or even when I work in socio-political conflicts which I do a lot of it's always relational. Conflict is always relational. Every story that I've heard about conflicting from political leaders, from government leaders, from social leaders, from religious leaders it comes back to there's been a breach, there's been a relational breach, comes back to there's been a breach. There's been a relational breach, there's been an expectation about how a relationship should go, and typically I'm blaming the other person for the breach. Let's just be honest, that's most of our conflict narratives and someone else has breached that expectation in a way that's been really painful for me. It's hurt me, and because it's hurt me, I expect them to repair the breach. And when they repair the breach, then there can be some level of reconciliation.
Speaker 3:But you know, if you think about that pattern, it's you can see why we don't get very far in conflict. Right, because, because there's been a breach and I blame that breach on you, conflict is happening to me. I'm not involved in a pattern of conflict, it is something that's happened to me. Therefore, all the blame lies with you and all of the changing that needs to happen also lies with you, and I'm going to sit here and patiently or impatiently wait for that to change, wait for that to change.
Speaker 3:And that's where we get these narratives of real helplessness in marriage because my husband I know my husband needs to change, or I know my wife needs to change and here's the list of all the things they need to change. But they won't. And because they won't, they continue to hurt me and do damage. And the more that I press them to change, the more that I blame them, the more that I push and push and push, they seem to dig in and resist back. It's almost like the more that I complain to them, the more they double down on the very thoughts and behaviors that are causing the conflict in the first place. And I think it's a deep misunderstanding of human nature, including our own, because we all know that when we feel blamed, when other people take themselves out of a conflict pattern and put it completely on us, our natural response is to be defensive, to dig in, to point out the other things that they're doing that also are contributing to the conflict, which they don't like. And then the conflict escalates right away, right away.
Speaker 3:And I don't really see a huge difference between what's going on in marriages, what's going on in parenting, to what's happening in our communities, what's happening with us politically in the world, and we lack those tools at all of those levels.
Speaker 3:But what I tell people a lot when I'm working with them, even in the socio-political systems, is try it at home first. Start close in Start with the thing that you have the most control over. Right now, very few people have control over the socio-political climate that exists in our country today. I actually think there are things people can do, but it's like PhD level conflict work right, but the thing that I can do as a parent with a teenager or the thing that I could do with my spouse, those are the things that are close in, where I start to practice these skills. And because conflict is inevitable and I would argue it happens every day, it's just not always destructive I can get a lot of practice in doing this well and then that will serve me well in the organizations that I work for or in other spots like that. But if we don't get it right at home, I find it really hard to be able to do it well anywhere else.
Speaker 3:So we start close in.
Speaker 1:I'm curious, chad, if there's one principle right, you had 10 minutes, me, you have 30 minutes, or whatever. If you have one principle to sit down and talk with couples about conflict, transformation, everything that you've learned, what would it be?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's hard to say that. There's one. I've tried to distill it down to four that I'll talk about briefly. That I'll talk about briefly. One is seeing people as people. Or in my new book I talk about it from a scriptural reference of loving your enemies.
Speaker 3:Right, I have to look at this person that I'm in conflict with and see their humanity. I can't be angry with people just because there's conflict, just because they don't see the world the same way that I see them. I have to look with eyes of compassion towards people that are struggling, that are misbehaving. I have to be curious about why they're talking or acting that way, why they're making the choices that they're making right now. I need to seek to try to understand what is beneath those behaviors and actions and I have to give a certain level of empathy or grace to they also are trying to navigate the world the best way that they know how. Now, that doesn't change the fact that we have conflict and it doesn't mean that there's less work for us to do. But I think when I'm approaching a person that I'm in conflict with with a bit of compassion, with a bit of empathy, and saying this isn't going well and I suspect it's also not going well for you. This is really frustrating to me, but I suspect it's also frustrating for you. I have some things in my past that are being triggered right now by this conversation, but I suspect you have a story as well right now. I've lashed out today, but you know what? I skipped breakfast and lunch. I was so busy and I'm hangry right now. But you also have a story. I haven't been around you all day. I don't actually know what's going on. Right, I'm going to take that deep breath. That starts a reverse of a cycle where destructive conflict typically requires a level of dehumanization and blame, where I am deeply intolerant of what the other person is thinking or saying, and it opens me up, I think, in a really powerful way.
Speaker 3:The second thing I say is that we practice inside-outside transformation. We don't throw stones right. Throwing stones at our partners beget more stones when we have blame. That we feel like I need to confront this to you. I need to show you how bad you are. And I throw that stone.
Speaker 3:It wounds other people, they get defensive and they have their own stones that they've been carrying around with them, waiting to toss them back, and I'm always surprised. Couples are always surprised when they're like, okay, I'm in mediation, I finally get to say everything that I want to say to my partner right now. And then they're shocked when they have a response back that says well, let me tell you a few things that aren't working for me. They're like wait, wait, wait, wait, don't look at me. Wait, this isn't supposed to be happening in the media issue right now. Right, this is my time to bombard this person with stones right now, and I don't expect them back. And I think human nature is that they're going to come back.
Speaker 3:And so how do we roll away those things? Right? How do we find ways to call people in instead of call people out? Right? How do I call you into the relationship and say this behavior is hurting us? And because it's hurting us and because I care about us and because I care about our relationship going forward, how can we work on this so that we strengthen our relationship instead of how do I condemn you because of the things that you're doing that are weakening that? And I just found that people respond to that so much better, because it starts with a signal of actually, what I want is better relationship with you and the reason that we're having this hard conversation today is because what I want is for us to be stronger, but when we're throwing stones, I think what happens on the other side is it feels like what you want is to hurt me or punish me or call me out, push me out of the relationship, somehow single me out in ways that aren't going to make me feel disconnected.
Speaker 3:To me, the hardest step though, those are both hard, but to me the hardest step is I see, in virtually every conflict in marriage, maybe the best, which is I'm willing to make some changes. When they make some changes first, I'm willing to do this or this or this, but first you need to assure me that you're going to do this, this and this, and then afterwards I'll reciprocate. And I find that in most marriages that's happening. On both sides there's been a breach of trust, and because there's been a breach of trust, the other party feels like the only way to rebuild trust is for you to go first, right, and to repair that trust. And once you repair it, then I can start working on coming closer.
Speaker 3:And so we get stuck in these patterns of I'm insisting that the other person go first, and so I call this the risk of embrace in my new book, but who's going to be the first person to open up our arms and signal to the other person? I'm willing to make some changes here that I think will improve the relationship. These are the things that I see that I could do that could be helpful to you, and so one of the patterns that I follow in this sort of problem-solving part of conflict is, instead of asking people, what is it? Okay, now tell me what you need from the other person, after we've had this long conversation, is to actually ask people what did you hear from your partner about what they need? Can you think of three things just over the course of our conversations that you've heard from your partner that you need Now? Could you pick one of those things and offer it to your partner? Do you think you could just pick one of them right now and offer it?
Speaker 3:And then I asked the partner would that be helpful if they offered that to you? And if they say yes, then what would it look like specifically to make that happen? If I say I need more respect around the home, what does respect look like specifically, and how would I know that I was actually showing you more respect in the home? What does respect look like specifically? And how would I know that I was actually showing you more respect in the home? What specifically would that look like? And so we're starting that process of collaboration where we're willing to go first to offer something that often is powerfully invitational for the other person, and then finally, especially in marriage, of all the sort of places. Right, we're not practicing conflict management, we're not just practicing conflict resolution, we're practicing reconciliation. This is about transforming our relationship. This is not just about problem solving. It's transforming our relationship in such a way that any problem that comes our way, we're going to be able to navigate it together on in an effective way. And what we're actually doing in this whole process is strengthening the relationship so that we can navigate those relationships more effectively it was so powerful.
Speaker 2:I just want to kind of do the the brief, the four steps. Okay, dear ch, dear Chad. So the first one was really seeing people's humanity right, loving our enemies. And then two, what was two? Please, in the short, don't throw stones. Yeah, oh, that was, don't throw stones. I had that as three, okay, and then three, three was the risk of embrace. Risk of embrace Love that. And then the four is the reconciliation. Yeah, practice reconciliation.
Speaker 1:We'll be right back after this brief message. And we're back, let's dive right in I love that.
Speaker 2:You know. In 70 times 7 you explore the power of forgiveness and healing some pretty deep wounds. Can we use those principles of marriage across the board for the, the small, the medium and and the deep loans?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know it's interesting when people talk about forgiveness. I see it as a stack of reconciliation. I don't see it as the end-all and be-all, because I think there are other things that have to be attached to reconciliation, not just forgiveness, because I've seen forgiveness really misused in ways that allow for bad behavior to continue, allow for people to continue to suffer from abuse. Because we follow this idea of well, we're supposed to forgive everyone. But I actually think, when you look at this whether you're looking at it both from an academic standpoint or you're looking at it both from an academic standpoint or you're looking at it from a religious standpoint that there's four factors that are kind of coming into reconciliation. Truth I'm honestly being accountable for my actions, thoughts and behaviors. I how difficult is it to forgive someone when they refuse to take accountability, when they refuse to even talk about the things that are happening? Right, and so often you'll hear this well, you should forgive, but I shouldn't confess, I shouldn't be open about what it is that I might have been contributing to the conflict. Forgiveness is one of them. Justice is another one. If someone has been hurt as part of this conflict, how do I make them whole? I'm not interested at all in the justice that destroys or punishes, but I am really interested in the justice that makes people whole, right. And if the conflict has carved a significant wound in my life and I don't want to address it anymore, let's just forgive and forget. The wound, in my opinion, still festers on there. And so how do I actually go about making this right, the wrong that I've made? And then, finally, the last step is how do I give us confidence that this isn't going to happen again? And I'm not talking about conflict Conflict for sure, is going to happen again but I'm talking about destructive conflict or serious breaches of the marital relationship. What am I going to work on? How can I show you and give you confidence, liz, that these behaviors that I've engaged in in the past, I am actively working on making changes, I'm going to therapy, right, I'm going to counseling, whatever it is to show you and to give you confidence and trust that I recognize that repeating these mistakes again and again and again in marriage will continue us down the path of destruction. And so I think that they all go together right, and they're all things that we offer people in conflict. They're not just things that we expect from others, but they're things that we offer. We offer truth without justification. We offer a sense, offer truth without justification. We offer a sense of accountability without blame. We forgive people when they come asking for forgiveness.
Speaker 3:And when I say forgiveness I say I'm going to remove that barrier that I put in place, that sort of protective barrier right that has kept us from each other. Now Forgiveness means I'm moving that away. I'm not bringing it up every time that you come a step near to me. Oh, remember when, right here it is again. I'm seeking to make sure that whatever damage I did in the conflict, I do whatever I can and sometimes I recognize it's not easy to make you whole and I'm going to keep working on myself and be very open to that towards you so that you see that I'm committed to this relationship and part of my commitment to it is that I'm going to continue to work on myself so I can be the best partner I can be to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just so rich. There's a part of me, I have to be honest, that would just really love to forgive and forget. Let's just let bygones be bygones, you know what I mean. Let's just kind of go along our way and you're suggesting that I really have to right the wrongs. I really have to understand from that person's perspective. Wait a minute, where was I wrong here? In your eyes, I probably have a blind spot to it. Yeah, I'm kind of like um, what's the word? Kind of coward, cowardly when I just want to do let's just forgive and forget, move on.
Speaker 3:I find when that happens, the conflict tends to reappear. I can imagine, right, I know, as therapists, you know that the right strategy isn't to bury it, right, whatever, whatever's going on, right and and you know I'm really good at that and I was kind of taught that as a young person right, like when you have a problem, just bury it, bury it deep inside you, right, and I've done a lot of digging and a lot of burying it by life and I've noticed, even in my own life, it finds its way up. No matter how deep I bury it, it finds its way up. No matter how deep I bury it, it keeps crawling back to the surface. And I use sometimes this analogy, I call it the grocery store analogy.
Speaker 3:If you think that you've moved on, let's say you've cut somebody off, you've created these really strong boundaries, I'm done with it.
Speaker 3:And you run into them in a grocery store three years later and it's the first time you've seen them in three years Can you walk up to them, can you embrace them, can you say, hey, it's great to see you, and move on.
Speaker 3:Or you feel suddenly, with all of that conflict again, does all of it just come bursting back out and you do everything possible to avoid seeing or interacting with that person.
Speaker 3:And if it's the latter, all it tells me is you've carried it, you didn't forget at all, right, you just carried it with you for three years and there's so much that you've carried with you that is probably infected, the way that you are in relationship with lots of other people that's been completely invisible to you, and so that's how I know. Right, if we've really opened our hand up and let go, is that, if I've really reconciled with a person, even if it was our choice to not be in the same relationship anymore or to not interact with each other in the ways that we've done before, I should be able to embrace them in the grocery store, ask them a little bit about their family and how they're doing, and be able to move on and not need to instantly call my therapist and say I'm having a panic attack right now. I just ran into Dave at the grocery store.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. What did you call that embrace? What's that embrace called?
Speaker 3:The risk of embrace the risk, yeah, I love that, I love a risk of embrace the risk. I love that, I love the risk. That concept comes from a guy named maris lump wolf who was a theologian who was writing during the bosnian war, uh, and looking at what was happening with the serbians and, uh, the bosnians, uh, during, uh, really, what was a a very brutal ethnic um war and and he's trying to rectify that many of these folks are Christians kind of going after each other in this way. And how do we think about taking that risk of embrace with our enemy? And I always find it so fascinating his approaches because you think embrace is easy. But he's like there's really four steps to embrace. I'd never really thought about this before. Right, like breaking down, like what an embrace does. But it starts with someone gesturing to the other person, like opening up their arms, opening up their hands to the other person, inviting embrace, right, you watch, even in your social cues or signals someone will signal to the other person an embrace is coming, right. The second part I think is really fascinating and that can be scary, especially if I'm in conflict. I don't know whether the other person is going to step into that embrace. I don't know if they're going to punch me in the face. I don't really know what's going to happen. But he says the second step and I never really thought about this before is that we actually wait. We don't just collapse into someone else's space and grab them. We wait for them to take the step into the embrace. Right, I signal to you that I'm open and then you signal back whether you are open or not and you signal that back by either stepping into that embrace or you don't. I've got teenagers right now and we're teaching them about consent, as they're starting to date, and we're teaching about reading body language and not just verbal language and how important it is.
Speaker 3:Because those moments that are deeply intimate, that are deeply vulnerable for us when I signal to someone else like hey, I think I would like to hug you or I would like to hold your hand or I would like a kiss are really vulnerable moments. But they're vulnerable for both parties and the other party just might not be there yet and you have to be so alive to that and be patient and not push that and give them space to walk in. And a lot of times I know I'm gung-ho in conflict resolution. I want to charge in, I want to give the flying squirrel hug, and I just know that once we're like this, you're going to feel great. And instead of giving the other person the space to walk in, then the embrace part is easy right. We close our arms around each other and we embrace.
Speaker 3:But then I love the fourth step too, which is that I let go and let them step out of space. Step two, which is that I let go and let them step out of space. I have enough trust for you that I don't need to cling to you with all of my might and never let you go. It actually shows that I don't trust you. When I do that, I'm afraid that this embrace is going to end and it might not happen again. I show some trust and respect by opening my arms back up and saying you know you're free to come whenever you want, but I'm not going to trap you now in the bricks Now that I've got you right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's perfect.
Speaker 1:Unless you're my wife and she's hugging one of our teenagers so that she doesn't let go when they're trying to escape, right?
Speaker 3:Well, that's where I experience the most, right, like I mean he's writing about, like Bosnian and Serbians, but where I really experienced that is with teenagers, right, because there's this weird moment that many teenagers hit where they don't want their parents to touch them anymore. They don't want physical touch. They think it's weird and it's so hurtful as a parent, right, it's so like I just, and they need it. It's so hurtful as a parent, right, it's so like I just, and they need it. You know they need it, you know they need embrace, but they don't know they need it. And whenever they do it, we go overboard too much, right, and then we overdo it and freak them out.
Speaker 1:They don't want to do it again. Oh, I don't think that's exactly right. Oh, man, unpacking forgiveness a little bit more. Going back to some of that, I'm curious. You've written about radical forgiveness. I'm curious what does that look like for a spouse to practice that kind of forgiveness in the face of betrayal or this long-standing hurt? Can you walk us through radical forgiveness idea?
Speaker 3:Well, I think to me that the radical part of forgiveness is from my end not from what I'm expecting from other people, but from my end. You're going to get forgiveness no matter what, and when I say that, what I mean is you can expect that in my relationship. That is part of what I'm going to give in the relationship, and what I mean by it is that I am not going to cut off our relationship just because you've done or said something hurtful. I may need to change the nature of the relationship. I'm right. The relationship itself may need to change for safety reasons, for example, that we may have to change the nature of it. But what we're not in risk of is you being excommunicated from my life, of you being cut off from that. I will continue to seek relationship with you. We may have to redefine it. We may have to put some boundaries on it, but not boundaries to punish or to keep us away, but boundaries that help the relationship go right in ways that maybe it didn't go right in the future. But what you can expect from me is that there will be a continued commitment to us, and I think that that opens up so much vulnerability on the other side. I think that's what invites actual truth.
Speaker 3:We think about like for infidelity for a reason why don't couples? Why do they hide it? And their fear is right that when I, it's going to hurt the other person. But I even think their bigger fear is that it is going to end us in ways that I don't want us to end. And I think that there are ways to create the space where, yeah, it may affect us, it may change something about us, depending on what that behavior is. But what I'm really interested in doing is finding a way to create the best us going forward. And I think that all of us fear that, that our partners maybe don't want that, that they're not that invested radically in the relationship, that this is a relationship that I'm committed to and ongoing. And so when I've made a breach and like I find couples lying to each other over much, much less than infidelity, right, like they're keeping so many things from there, and every time what's driving it is fear, right, what is going to happen to me if I say this thing, because I've made a mistake and what we try to talk about is reversing the question into what is going to happen to us if I don't Right.
Speaker 3:And it's not about self-preservation or even you preservation. It's about us preservation and some of the trust that I have to give to my partner when I've heard is that the trust can include. You deserve to be hurt Right can include. You deserve to be hurt right, like you. It's completely reasonable that what I've done is causing you pain or anger or frustration. I accept that because of what I've done. I also trust you that there's enough of us in there that at some point we're going to be able to talk about this. At some point we're going to be able to practice truth and mercy and justice and peace.
Speaker 3:And if the consequences of that are that we have to change the nature of the relationship because sometimes that's just the real consequence of actions like that we remain committed to reforming that relationship in the best possible way.
Speaker 3:I just think about divorces all the time and think about how beautiful it would be for children if partners who divorced found a way to reform their relationship in a way that allowed them to be their best selves, because of the impact that it would have on the children.
Speaker 3:That doesn't mean staying in the marriage if that's not the right way to be our best selves together. But if there was an intentionality, as we're transitioning from one relationship to another, that we're practicing this and finding a better rhythm, a better pattern for us so that our kids can see us interacting in this way, so our kids don't get stuck in the middle of things, being torn apart and, in fact, in a way that actually means divorce could be healthier, because we found the best version of us to work together and that's what we want our children to see, and every encounter is the best version of us, so that they can model healthy relationships as they get older. And I fear most of the time that's not happening. Because I refuse to forgive, because I refuse to, because I feel like justice really means punishing or hurting the other side, because I don't believe in other people's capacity to change, because I refuse to be accountable or own up, the devastation that's laid in the wake for so many families to me isn't worth it. It just isn't worth it.
Speaker 2:Conflict. Conflict kills us, doesn't it? It kills kids, it kills us as former partners or current partners. Yeah, you're so right, john.
Speaker 1:Destroys us.
Speaker 2:Only that could be done. I love that. I love that whole mission statement that you have. I'm sure there's many stories that stand out in your mediation work with couples where a marriage was transformed by forgiveness. Is there a particular one you wouldn't mind sharing with us today?
Speaker 3:Yeah, Well, I think one of the most powerful ones. I write a little bit about this in 70x7. I wrote about it because it really stood out to me. It was, frankly, one of the simplest mediations that I ever did, though I didn't expect it to couple in the congregation. I actually knew them. They were local, I knew the couple not super well, but I knew them and he told me, with their permission, that they were heading towards divorce and that he was out of his league in trying to help counsel them and navigate them.
Speaker 3:They'd gone to marital counseling that had failed and what have you? I don't think he had a lot of hope in saving the marriage, but he thought it would be great if I could at least meet with him and see if we could find a more peaceful way to navigate through, because it was becoming a very high conflict, destructive conflict, split, and I would be honest, I was shocked. I didn't even know that that was happening. I usually have a pretty good radar for this stuff, but I didn't really see it and so I called them and the husband wanted reconciliation. He didn't want the divorce. We talked for a while. Anything we can do to save the marriage, what have you.
Speaker 3:When I talked to his wife, she was ready for the divorce. She'd already hired an attorney. She had made the decision. She didn't really want to have a discussion around a reconciliation, but she was open to thinking about could we do this in a less conflictual way? Can we do this with the least amount of collateral damage around her? And so she agreed to meet on those terms, and I made it clear that we meet on the terms of the parties involved. This is what one party wants. This is what the other party wants. I'm not going to preference one thing or the other. We're going to just have to navigate that through together.
Speaker 3:But let's just be transparent about why people are coming to the meeting, and I spent a week thinking about them. It always helps as a mediator when you know the couple and my kids play with their kids. We're in a small community. You know there's going to be a ripple effect and I thought I had this amazing plan. But as I was walking to their house that's how small a community that we we live in I had this idea and it it really changed, uh, everything. It was such a powerful idea. I'm like I'm gonna try this. I've never done this before. And so when I sat down with a couple and said, look, I've heard everything. I think I know what's going on. I'm really just going to ask us to do three things today in our first session and there may not be another session after the first session, but we're just going to do three things today so I asked them to take out a piece of paper and the first thing I asked him is can you think of the last time in your memory where you felt deep love towards your partner?
Speaker 3:I'm right here. Can you think of a memory? It'd even be better if you could tell me a little story about what was going on. But I just want you to take a few minutes. I want you to write down. I saw the husband writing right away. Wife was pausing. That's not a great sign, you can kind of see.
Speaker 3:See like I'm kind of rolling through the memories so that it doesn't surprise me in some ways and he talked about an anniversary trip that was some like five years ago, where they had gone on a trip and he thought it was a wonderful trip and talked about just how close he felt to his partner and everything like that, and then he sort of felt like things kind of went downhill from there and I asked her do you remember that trip? And she said I do. I'm like, did you have the same recollection from the trip? She said I did not. I was angry that entire trip. And I was angry because that was the place where we'd gone to our honeymoon and he had been promising for years and years to take me back and it canceled multiple times because he was so busy with work and so busy prioritizing other things. By the time we got there it was like too little, too late, and I actually resented being there. I could see the husband was just wounded by that. It just blew him away. I don't even think he knew.
Speaker 3:To a certain extent I think it was the first time that she'd really articulated that, and so I said okay, your turn, what do you got? And she talked about I think it was her honeymoon and so I mean they are kids and it's a long time, right. She went all the way back to who she thought she was marrying and what she thought the relationship was going to be like and how hopeful she was about how things were going to be. And then she added I didn't ask her, but she added how disappointing it sort of had been after that that the man that she thought that she'd married was just not the man that she was married to today. Like, okay, that went. Okay, not great, but let's do the second step. And the second step was simply to ask them I want you to think about the other person for a second what are their biggest fears, challenges, trials that they're facing or going through right now? Can you think about what's hard for them right now? And then I'm going to ask you a second question that's tied to this one as well, which is can you think of anything you've done small, medium or large that may have actually added to those, anything that may have been adding to what they're struggling with right now?
Speaker 3:Pausing for a minute, husband starts talking about his addiction to work, his addiction to his career, his complete and many times lack of connection to his family, how he told himself again and again that he was doing that for his family. But he can now see why his wife may have felt abandoned, why she may have not felt prioritized, why she may have felt lonely or alone in their marriage, and how he can understand the disappointment, because that's not what she signed up for. That's not what he promised. And tears running down his eyes as he engaged in some real truth, um, towards her. She put down her paper, walked over to him, knelt down beside him and began begging him to forgive her. The ways that she also felt like she had done the same to him, how she had blamed him, how she had not seen him, how she had hurt him in many ways. He stood up, stood her up, began holding her. They were crying, they were hugging, they were whispering to each other.
Speaker 3:I felt really awkward being in the room. It was like a sacred space and I left. 15 minutes later I left. I didn't even ask the third question, which was going to be is there something you feel like you could do for the other person to help make something right? And and we engaged in some real conflict mediation.
Speaker 3:It was, by the way, it didn't solve it overnight, but it put them in the path where they decided they wanted to work on their marriage and a while later, there were things that they had to address, patterns that needed to be changed. They both went back into therapy individual therapy and were working on that as well, but there was a bond and a connection that turned it around in 15 minutes. I got really excited, by the way, and I thought I'm going to write a book called 15-Minute Mediation and it's going to be like 15 pages and it's just going to have these steps in it. And I've actually, by the way, for your listeners to know, I've actually tried it and sometimes this doesn't work at all. In fact, I've actually had a blow up in my face and work the opposite of that, which just goes to show you that every couple is different and everybody's problems are different. And probably what I could say most about that story was it was a moment where I was in tune with us to what was going on that I asked them the questions that needed to be asked.
Speaker 3:But you think about this when we're in conflict, those are not questions we are asking ourselves.
Speaker 3:They're not questions that we're typically thinking about. We're not trying to remind ourselves and bring back memories of warmth and the humanity of our partners. We're not trying to remind ourselves often why we married this person and the good that we see in them. We typically are thinking about our challenges, our struggles, our fears, our problems, and less thinking about what it is that they're carrying with them. We're clear about how the conflict's impacting us. We're typically fairly unclear about how the conflict is impacting them and we're even blinder to the fact that we might actually be contributing to their pain, their suffering, their woundedness right now and then, because we're blind to those things, we don't typically think that there's something that's within our power to do to make things right. Right Because we're so busy waiting for the other person to make it right, we're so busy blaming them and trying to shame them into making it right that we we forget that we have this power within us, um, to change these dynamics in really, really powerful ways yeah, that is just powerful.
Speaker 1:I'm just just thinking about almost breaking it down, the process, something. I mean she felt something right. It takes humility, but she was touched and when we're open to the influence of other people and allow that to actually melt our hearts in a way, melt the wall that we've been carrying, or this grudge or this animosity feeling, whatever it is, it melted. And then she saw him differently. Right, when we see people differently, the authentic them, rather than this annoying person who works too much or does this and this and this, so I don't know. Man, that was just eye-opening.
Speaker 1:Thanks for sharing that Powerful Chad, for sharing that Powerful Chad. Oh, man, we've sure enjoyed our discussion. This has been just all kinds of insights and questions. We'll be right back after this brief message and we're back. Let's dive right in. You write about rolling away the stone. What does that metaphor mean in real life? Conflict Resolution and in some ways it kind of reminds me of that story that you just you just shared that rolling away, yeah yeah, you notice, that man in the moment probably had plenty of stones that he could have thrown towards his wife right now.
Speaker 3:I'm sure I know he had plenty of complaints. Um, I know it in part because when she went and apologized, she listed a long series of things that I'm sure had wounded him, and so he had a choice right in that moment. Right, and I tried to ask the question in a very specific way to avoid that very behavior. Right, but he still had a choice in that moment to actually mishear the question and frankly, I've heard people do it or deliberately mishear the question and say well, I'm not going to talk about that right now. I want to talk about my own woundedness, and here are all the ways that you contributed to it. Rolling away the stones means I see you so clearly in the moment that I'm not interested in giving you what you deserve. I'm interested in giving you what you need Right, you what you deserve. I'm interested in giving you what you need Right. And I think that she turns Dave, in part because it was the first time he had authentically seen her in a really long time. I think it awoke something within her to finally my husband sees me. He sees my pain, he sees my suffering, he sees my disappointment and instead of blaming me for all of that which he could, he rolled away his stones and instead offered me what I needed in the moment.
Speaker 3:And there's an apocryphal story that I love, that I actually tell in the book. It comes from a Muslim, sufi, from the 14th century, but it's about Jesus. It's not in the Bible, but I find it to be like one of my favorite stories about Jesus. And he's walking through this village and there's all these people who are yelling at him and swearing at him and giving him curses. And Jesus responds to each person with a blessing. And when he gets to the next town, his apostles come around him and say why are you doing that? Those people are mistreating you. Why are you giving them blessings To which he responds. I can only give what is in my purse to give. There are no curses, there are no stones to throw. All I have is blessings to give.
Speaker 3:When we respond to evil with good, when we respond to hurt with pain and compassion, it has a powerful way of disarming others and inviting them to roll their stones away as well. The conflict dynamics of this have been studied academically, they're proven it even at an international level about how you de-escalate or escalate a conflict. But when it's so close to home, right, when it's so personal, it's so easy to forget that and it's so easy to get ourselves in a protective mode and our stones are there to push you away and make you say, hey, don't, don't, don't poke the bear here, you're hurting, um, or maybe to hurt you the way that I feel like you've been hurting me, without any recognition that what we really want, what we really need, is embrace. It's really hard to embrace when stones are flying back and forth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is Wow, Chad, so powerful. Hey, as we wrap things up, we'd love to ask all of our guests. You've been on before and I'll ask you the same question, though Chad, as far as the honor of the name of our podcast Stronger Marriage Connection what do you feel like is a key? What is one of the keys to a stronger marriage connection these days, Chadwick?
Speaker 3:Boseman. Yeah, let me get personal for a minute and talk about my marriage. I'm on a second marriage. I actually had a marriage that ended in divorce, and a very painful one, and my wife did as well, and I'm seven years into my newest marriage. It is the single most fulfilling relationship that I've ever had in my life.
Speaker 3:The fire burns brightly between us in really powerful ways, and as I think about what I've learned as I've gotten older, and maybe what I'm doing a little differently here than before, it's that whenever conflict comes our direction now, what I hear from it is um. When, when it's coming from my wife, what I hear from it is um chad, something's not working for me here, but I want it to work, and the reason that I'm frustrated or the reason that I'm bringing this up or the reason that I'm talking about it, this is what I hear. It's not always the way it comes out of her mouth or my mouth sometimes, but this is how I choose to hear it every day. What I'm saying here is I want better connection than the connection I have before, and then I step into that. I get curious, I ask questions before and then I step into that. I get curious. I ask questions, I try to find out how to make the adjustments until the connection is bright, and that's an ongoing process. It's something that I feel like is part of the open communication every day.
Speaker 3:When I was younger, those same conversations felt like attacks to me. They felt like they were questioning me or my character, or questioning whether we should be married or what have you, and they often responded with defensiveness or, frankly, my style was to shut down all the way and just feel very cold and feel bad for myself and feel bad about it. Anymore and I've recognized that this is a key element of my marriage is that I am constantly fine tuning. I am constantly curious, I'm constantly open to how we will work best together and I joke with my wife. Sometimes it's like I have an ongoing user manual for you and I keep updating it as I learn more and more about you because I want to engage with you in the best possible way.
Speaker 2:How cool is that? Yeah, thank you for your vulnerability. That's so honest and courageous of you to share about your marriage with Amanda Ford. Sometimes I will look forward to having Amanda Ford on sometime soon. Yeah, so you have tremendous resources and books, chad. Obviously we're talking about the two books here, but what else? Where can our friends and family in the show go to find out more about you and follow your movement on conflict transformation?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I have a newsletter I published a couple of times a week. Sometimes they're tips on on conflict, sometimes they're tips on conflict, sometimes they're lost chapters. I tend to write much bigger books than the ones that actually get published. They're podcasts and videos and a lot of different things, and you can go to DangerousLoveBookcom and that will take you to my Substack page, or you can go to ChatfordSubstackcom It'll take you to the same place. Sign up for a free newsletter and in your inbox every couple of weeks the conflict styles are there. I have a recent article on boundaries and thinking about good boundaries versus bad boundaries and how to navigate those in conflict, and then you can also find when I'm speaking or events or whatever it is that you want help with.
Speaker 2:Wonderful. And then the waymaker is something different, then right.
Speaker 3:That is the waymaker. That's what I call it all the waymaker.
Speaker 2:Make sure I understood. We will link those resources to our show notes. Thank you so much, Chad. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Chad. As we wrap up, we like to ask all of our guests another question that is your takeaway of the day. We've had a minute in my mind of one of the richest discussions that I recently remember. Is there a takeaway message, a take-home message, a nugget you want our, our listeners to remember from our discussion today?
Speaker 3:yeah, accept that conflict in your relationship isn't a bad thing. It can be a very positive, constructive thing because it can teach us how to better live and love together. Conflict has that really real benefit if we step into it the right way, and if we're avoiding it and if we're doing it badly, it won't have that effect. So skill yourself up, consider it like a requirement. If I'm going to learn how to fly a plane, I would take lots of pilot lessons. Start to skill yourself up on getting better at conflict and watch it dramatically improve the depth and quality of your relationship.
Speaker 1:Love it. Yeah, Liz. What about you? What's your takeaway of the day with Chad for?
Speaker 2:Well, I love both books, as you know, dave, and the standout always for me has been the risk of embrace in 70 times seven. I always want to say seven times 70, but it's 70 times seven and I love that. And then the four steps. I really appreciate the reminder of being open, wait, waiting, and then the embrace and then the letting go. I think that's just beautiful. I mean, that's going to stay with me all day. What about you there, dave? What's going to be your rich nugget? And that you hope all of us remember from our time today with Dr Chad Ford.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Chad, this has been, as I mentioned, just so helpful. I think for me it's the stones it has to do with. Instead of throwing stones at your partner, it's just throwing the stones away. It's that rolling the stone away. It is the not even having them in your little light purse, your little latchel there, to just get away. Yeah, it's not even a part of who you are is wanting to attack or to attack back, but it's blessings, it's kindness, it's compassion, it's love yeah, that dangerous love that you talk about and that includes those open arms. It's a vulnerable position, too, having open arms. You're going to get smacked, possibly, right? So what a wonderful metaphor. So I sure appreciate you coming on today and sharing so much wisdom and tips for us.
Speaker 3:Thanks for all you're doing. It's really important work.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thanks, friends, for joining us for another episode of Stronger Marriage Connection podcast. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2:And remember it's the small and simple things that create a stronger marriage connection. Take good care of you and each other.
Speaker 1:Bye-bye now. Every episode of the show, be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram, at Stronger Marriage Life, and Facebook, at Stronger Marriage. So be sure to share with us which topics you loved or which guests we should have on the show. Next, if you want even more resources to improve your marriage or relationship connection, visit StrongerMarriageorg, where you'll find free workshops, e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys and more. Each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, rex Polanis, and the team at Utah State University and you, our audience. You make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.