Stronger Marriage Connection
It's often said that marriage takes work. The Stronger Marriage Connection podcast wants to help because a happy marriage is worth the effort. USU Family Life Professor Dr. Dave Schramm and Clinical Psychologist Dr. Liz Hale talk with experts about the principles and practices that will enhance your commitment, compassion, and emotional connection.
More than ever before, marriages face obstacles, from the busyness of work and daily hassles to disagreements and digital distractions. It's no wonder couples sometimes drift apart, growing resentful, lonely, and isolated.
The Utah Marriage Commission invites you to listen and discover new ways to strengthen and protect your marriage connection today!
Stronger Marriage Connection
Finding Love Through ALS | Lisa Valentine Clark | #140
Lisa Valentine Clark shares her extraordinary journey of love and resilience through her husband Christopher's battle with ALS, offering profound insights on how their marriage was strengthened through humor, sacrifice, and intentionally seeking joy amid terminal illness.
• Starting as friends performing in a comedy play at BYU—Lisa as a chicken, Christopher as Satan—created a foundation of laughter and friendship for their 25-year marriage
• Humor played a crucial role in their relationship, making each other laugh even through the darkest moments
• When Christopher was diagnosed with ALS in 2020, Lisa describes entering "go time" mode, committing fully to caregiving while he continued creating art until his final days
• During COVID lockdown, Christopher invited friends to entertain him through their living room window, creating unexpected moments of connection and joy
• The diagnosis shifted their marriage from equitable to sacrificial, with Lisa caring for Christopher and him focusing on leaving meaningful legacies for her and their five children
• Christopher orchestrated a surprise 25th wedding anniversary celebration two days before his death, demonstrating his outward focus even when dying
• Lisa emphasizes loyalty to friendship as the key to a stronger marriage—seeing your spouse as your best friend and being their biggest cheerleader
• Being fully present in the moment allowed them to find unexpected joy even during the most difficult circumstances
• Lisa's advice for couples facing health challenges: "Go all in" on caregiving without worrying about consequences
• For those who have lost someone: "You don't honor love by ceasing to exist—you honor it by loving, creating and living"
Listen to Lisa's podcasts, The Lisa Show and Council of Moms, wherever you get your podcasts.
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Dr. Dave Schramm:
Dr. Liz Hale:
Her husband was diagnosed with ALS in 2020. And for the next four years, lisa and Chris learned more about love, life and sacrifice than most couples learn in a lifetime. On today's episode, dr Liz and I welcome Lisa Valentine Clark to the show and she graciously walks us through how their marriage was strengthened through the struggles, walks us through how their marriage was strengthened through the struggles. She teaches us about humor, patience, kindness, gratitude and intentionally seeking out and soaking in joy. Lisa Valentine Clark is the executive producer and host of the Lisa Show podcast and the Council of Moms podcast. She works as a freelance writer and actor, including the Real Mom in the viral videos for chatbooks. She wrote Real Moms Making it Up as we Go, hosted the TV show Random Acts and headlined the musical improv TV show Showoffs. She has starred in movies Stalking Santa, once I Was a Beehive and Once I Was Engaged. Lisa is the mother of five mostly grown children. We hope you enjoy the show.
Speaker 1:Hey friends, welcome to another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection podcast. I'm Dr Dave here at Utah State University, alongside Dr Liz Hale, our therapist. We are aiming to bring you the very best that we have in marriage research and resources, along with a few tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. Now, today, I couldn't be more excited for our guest. She has entertained audiences for more than two decades with her quick wit and personality. Then, in March of 2016, her husband, christopher, was diagnosed with ALS at age 43. Over the next four years, they lived life to the fullest, with love and laughter. And here to discuss more about the magic in their marriage is the one and only Lisa Valentine Clark. Welcome to the show, lisa.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me. So great having you here.
Speaker 1:Thanks. Such an honor. Now, Lisa, every relationship has a story. I love stories. Stories are powerful and we love hearing people's marriage stories. So you met at Brigham Young University performing in a comedy stage play. That's pretty funny. Tell us a bit about your story and how it laid the foundation for your 25 year marriage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you bet. Thank you for asking. You know, it's a tale as old as time where you do a dramatic interpretation of the Bible like you do. It was actually supposed to be a drama but my memory now sets it as a comedy. And I was cast as a chicken on Noah comedy. Um, and I was cast as a chicken on noah's ark and christopher was cast as satan, he got the best role um so oh so we, we, we met there his best friend at the time I had known.
Speaker 2:anyway, the three of us started hanging out and then eventually it was just Christopher and I hanging out. We were friends for about a year and then dated for months after that and then got married in 1995.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great. I love hearing stories like that. Thanks so much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we started off as friends. I think that's the thing that I think of or remember the most doing something ridiculous and just making each other laugh behind stage and on stage, and then, when the play was over, just thought, oh, this is fun, let's just keep hanging out.
Speaker 3:So yeah, that's a fun, fun way to start a relationship, for sure, yeah, it's a fun way to start and it sounds like you really continue and be ridiculously happy and having fun with each other throughout those 25 years.
Speaker 2:I mean, there was always fun, for sure, but yeah, what?
Speaker 3:would you say what role did humor and laughter play in your marriage? I mean, were you two constantly just having a great time at home as well, with your kids Going?
Speaker 2:to different, like going on dates, like we saw this production of Macbeth Again, not a comedy, but laughing so hard. And I remember that I would come home and my cheeks and my stomach would hurt so hard because I find that I was like laughing the whole time. And so just I just think, you know, we always remember how, you know, people make us feel when we're around them. And it's not that we were never serious, because of course we did, but I like that that our relationship started off like look at this ridiculous thing, what do you think about that? And it was based on that kind of joy. And then the serious stuff and the business of life came later.
Speaker 2:But we were also able to do that. We just didn't always want to live in that and I realize a lot of people want to just be serious all the time, right, take life seriously. And it was nice finding or being with somebody who, um, knew that there was a time and a place for everything you know and and that was that was part of it but definitely leaned into that. If you can laugh about this situation, then let's choose that, if there's a choice right and not really.
Speaker 3:It really is, I suppose, a choice.
Speaker 2:You make a very good point about that yeah, how everybody gets to decide how they want to live yeah, in this moment right in this moment, right now that's true.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know when it, when it came to my friend, some of the dark and tough times, how were you in?
Speaker 2:well, two years, here were then well again, I think, really, you know, I think a lot of people look at at the marriage. I mean, nobody really knows somebody's marriage except for the two people in it, and even they have a different perspective than what on. Like, you know, look, look like. And I think from the outside, looking in, it would be really easy to just to say, oh, you laughed all the time and it was great. You know, we laughed every day, even on the horrible days. But there were a lot of really serious, sobering moments that we went through because we were present, right for each other, and I think that's such a gift.
Speaker 2:And as I look back about the things that I miss the most about that marriage, just being seen by another person, you know he didn't make you know, humor is such a broad word but he never, like we teased each other, but he never made fun of me. It never hit below the belt. He like it was always something that we did together and not at the cost of the other person. You know that kind of stuff. So when the serious and the the difficult times came, we had this deep, abiding, like trust in each other of like, oh, I'm your person and I'm on your team and I see you and I know that this isn't the time to like that. You need, you need this right now that that loyalty was always there first. You know it. It wasn't like humor, or was the the thing?
Speaker 3:yeah but it might look like that you know yeah, you know one of my favorite stories just real quick along. This is you kind of incorporated humor with your friends and family who wanted to do something for you and Christopher, and I can't remember what was Christopher's request to sit and look out the window at home and then have different people come by and entertain. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Speaker 2:Lisa, I know exactly what you're talking about. Life's changing. So in 2020, during the pandemic, when we had to be socially distanced, this was a time when Christopher's health was declining quite rapidly. So he was living with ALS and at that time he really couldn't move very much at all, just his neck, a little bit and one thumb, because he was typing things out with this eyewear, like a Stephen Hawking kind of like setup, and that's how he communicated. His health was declining. He had a feeding tube and he was on his trilogy-like machine to kind of help expand his lungs Most of the day, totally exhausted, just to exist.
Speaker 2:He was on hospice and then the world shut down, if you'll remember. So all of our CNAs, our hospice nurses and help and therapists all went home and so all of his care was up to me and our five children who were living at home, and it was really scary because he couldn't even get a cold. We thought, well, if you get a cold, you could probably die, because he had been living with ALS for about four and a half years and you just don't get better, you don't recover. Every day that you live with it is your last. So it was a pretty dire situation. I thought the situation was absolutely ridiculous because, um, you know, I needed so much help but just keeping them alive and and my five kids and I was working full-time and I just thought this is ridiculous anyway.
Speaker 2:So chris's response was, oh, it'll work out, and I was like, yeah, because I'll do it yeah and he was like, yeah, you will and you'll love it and it'll be fun and I'll be like. I was just like that's so easy for you, even saying and, um, unbeknownst to me, he had posted on social media. He's like Lisa's doing a really great job of keeping me alive. Um, it took me about like two and a half hours like every day to like get him ready, to get him like showered and dressed and all the therapy and stretch. Anyway, it was a kind of a laborious thing. And and he said and um, so she's gonna park me in front of we had these three big windows in our living room from the hours of one to four if anybody wants to come by and entertain me. And it was such a funny. I remember, like looking on social media and going what did you do? Holding up the phone, like what? And he was kind of laughing to himself and he's and he types out this message. He's like this is my service and this is how I help people in the world. When they serve me, a crippled man, then they feel good about themselves. So I'm very selfless for asking people to entertain me. And I was like, yeah, you're, you're a saint, and it was really funny. But that invitation spoke so much to his character because he was like you know, what are you going to do? This is so ridiculous, I want people to entertain me. He was thinking outside of the box, for sure, and he wasn't just thinking, oh, we're just going.
Speaker 2:What happened was quite remarkable. We had friends, you know, we had cute little neighbor friends. Come and do their dance routine for him or come and read him poems, like put messages on their window tape on the window. We had a friend come do magic tricks, one of our friends. They were like oh, our baby just learned how to walk, we're going to show you. Another one of our friends had got baby goats and came and brought them in front of the window. We had a friend that did like this whole lip sync, like a performance, and changed wigs and everything.
Speaker 2:Like it was so fun and people were, were just and I just was overcome with love and we would just sit there with my kids, with Chris, and just watch it. And you just felt so much love because I mean it was a horrible time. Everything was shut down and my husband's dying on hospice and here we are just like laughing so hard and I just felt so much love. Sometimes I had to excuse myself and go in the other room and just thought much love. Sometimes I had to excuse myself and go in the other room and just thought, oh, my heart's going to burst. Like people are so good and we just had friends come by and do that.
Speaker 2:They were socially distant, didn't get him sick, and it just was so indicative of his attitude and this was his way of helping me too, like in our marriage, where I was like I can't do this, I can barely lift you up, and now I have to lift you up several times a day and do everything and I'm so tired and I'm mourning and I'm mad and all the things. It was just horrible and he was like I know, but I'm still here and also this is happening too, and I think about that a lot of. We find happiness, we find joy in relationships and in our connections and there's lots of ways to connect with people. And also we find it in the present right. We find it by being present in our lives and not worrying about the next thing. I knew what was coming next. He knew what was coming next, but we couldn't do anything about that. But we could do that, we could make some good memories for our kids, we could make some connections in an unusual way and, yeah, that experience has really stuck with me.
Speaker 3:All these years later it has stuck with me too, irina, and it's such a great way for your friends and family to be involved. It was really very selfish of him, selfless of him. I thought Very lovey, yeah, it really is.
Speaker 1:I love that. Part of that speaks to a couple of principles. Even positive psychology talks about learning to slow down and savor the moment or the stage or the relationship or whatever. It is kind of soak it in a little bit if you will, rather than kind of letting that go by.
Speaker 1:Lisa, many of our listeners are working through the early years of marriage and the relationship and they can find it pretty challenging. In fact, a lot of the research shows that the newlywed years, you know after the kind of honeymoon effect, they can go through a lot of challenges and think challenges and think wait, what's wrong with me? You mentioned creativity as well. Are there ways that you two manage the stresses and the challenges that inevitably come up? Are there intentional practices that help strengthen your connection during that time?
Speaker 2:as you think back to those early years of marriage, yeah, I think in the early years, the thing that those earlier years were I don't want to say easy, but they were not as difficult because we were just two best friends that got to hang out all the time. And I look back at that and I think about over our 25-year marriage and what I've learned about marriage and in those early years we really set the foundation for what would be my favorite parts of our marriage and that is that it was a friendship. I think sometimes I hear people talk about their spouse in a different way, that they talk about their friends, and I love the idea that your spouse is your best friend and so you do things for your spouse like you would for a best friend. You give them the benefit of the doubt. You're invested in helping them be happy. You're invested in helping their dreams to come true about what makes them happy and how they want to live, in a way that isn't competition but is just like fulfillment.
Speaker 2:Like we always used to tease he used to hate it when I would tease him about like that. It was just really hard to be the one that loves the most right. Like the one that loves the most right, like, like, like that I just, and he'd be like, no, I do and don't say that and, um, I kind of love that that you don't hold back, right, like that. I think a lot of people in friendship and in marriages hold back because they don't want to be seen as being, um, a fool, right, like what if it's so hard to be vulnerable and it's so hard to like be all in being a fool? Right, it's so hard to be vulnerable and it's so hard to be all in in a marriage and in a friendship, because what if you get hurt? And what if they don't love you as much as you love them? Or what if it becomes embarrassing? And all of those what ifs that we fear that keep us from like true intimacy.
Speaker 2:And I just think when you're, if you've decided to marry somebody and you're in it, be in it like, be the one who loves the most, who cares, don't keep track. Be the one that's the biggest cheerleader, be the one that's like, yeah, how do you want to live? Let's live like that, like and and. When you have two people who are like that for each other, it's that's. That's what that's the thing, that's what it is, and and I love that christopher gave that to me and I tried to give that to him and, um, I think that's what we did, established in the early years, I think one of the benefits of me getting married so young, because I know there's a lot of criticism about it and I get it and like that's fair, but I just didn't worry too much about being the one that was too in it.
Speaker 2:I just thought, no, just do it, give it your all, and some people might look at me and think, well, that didn't work out very well for you, but but they would be wrong. You know, even everything that I've lost and all of the horrible, excruciating pain that I've been through and continue to go through and suffering. It's totally worth it and I don't have any Like regrets about that, and I think Christopher's death especially taught me about regret, because you replay things in your mind a lot about how you live, and I think there are a lot of people who are living with a lot of regret, especially my age, surrounding their marriage right and their marriages where it went wrong, and so this is my long way of answering your question. It went wrong, and so this is my long way of answering your question, but I hope I'm answering it kind of fully is that if I could go back and do it again, I would do it the same.
Speaker 2:And in the early years of those marriages you are saying to the other person you can trust me 100%, I am all in and don't hold back on that and be their biggest fan and their biggest advocate and best friend and fun, and think about you are living your life. You're not just building something for later, although you are, but you're living it now. You're doing it now, and hardships and good times and everything are always coming and going, always, always. But can you be that safe place for someone else, can you be that home for someone else? And trying to create that, instead of trying to measure it out and make sure that it's fair and make sure that everything you know goes your way, isn't the way to do it.
Speaker 3:Do you see, Lisa? Some people were critical of how, what a big fan and cheerleader you were. They get that right.
Speaker 2:Oh, I don't know, I didn't really much care for other people, but I know, like their opinions. But yeah, like there, there's always this when you sacrifice for another person, there's always a like a little raised eyebrow, right. Like so, for example, like I want, we both wanted to have a lot of kids. I wanted to as well, and I and I wanted to. Anyway, you make decisions in your marriage, right, like which career is going to go first and who's and how, and all of those things are based on a lot of personal decisions, right, and they certainly are for me, and I could go back and tell you all the personal decisions and why we chose this and not that and the other. But the important thing is that I made the decision on what I wanted to sacrifice and why, and he made the decision for what he wanted and why, and we looked at it as a marriage. I wasn't just thinking about my personal goals and he wasn't just thinking about his personal goals either. We were thinking about it of like, how can we build and create the kind of life that we both want, that allows us to both be creative, that was really important to us to use our talents but also to have a family life that was rich, because, at the end of the day, christopher had a really intense international career and nothing was more important to him than me and the kids. And I know that and maybe from the outside it didn't look like that, but I know the truth of it and he didn't care about all it. We had his priorities and they're aligned with my priorities and and that gave us a lot of and it was just really fun when other things like worked out.
Speaker 2:You know, it was just like well, we just I don't care if we live under a bridge, as long as we're like happy and it's just like the two of us. And then we've got these fun kids that we really love, like that's the thing and that focus. And then everything else is gravy, as the kids say right, like everything else is sort of extra on top of that. Like, oh, you have a career that you love or you get to do X, y, z. It's just like it just seems like a fun and great surprise.
Speaker 2:Z. It's just like it just seems like a fun and great surprise. So I'm glad that you know our marriage is traditional in some senses, but untraditional, you know, I think in that sense. And so there were some people that were like why are you doing that? Or why are you moving to England with two little kids and no job, and why are you getting this degree and why are you getting another degree and why are you doing this job on the side? That wasn't traditional, but, man, we had a good time doing it.
Speaker 2:That's just pretty cool, no matter how busy it. Yeah, we should do it, but that's not for everybody, but for us it was, and it felt like we were in on something and I think really good. Strong marriages are like, okay, are we doing this thing together? Not just like you do your thing, you do your thing and then we'll come together at the end of the day, but it's like, well, what are we doing creating together, like the whole thing, not just the career, but like the whole life, like how are we creating this together? To me, I feel like those marriages that I admired and the one that I tried to create was based on that, on a shared vision and excitement for each other. Well said, thank you.
Speaker 1:We'll be right back after this brief message and we're back, let's dive right in. Actually, liz, I just want to kind of recap a little bit of what you've said, because Liz often says this as far as the, what you focus on, you know, grows, you could focus on the challenges in the early years, really at any time in your relationship, but you had an outward focus, if you will, and it was focused on friendship and the fun and being their biggest fan. I love those ideas of it's not about me, it's about you and we and us. And marriage is an adventure. Life is an adventure, yeah, and being your biggest fan, I love that. And the foundation it's no surprise really that John Gottman you probably heard of him, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:He's a guru that says the foundation? After all these years he has this great quote. He says the foundation is friendship.
Speaker 2:People, they just like each other, they treat each other. You just, we started having a conversation when I was 19 years old, right, and when he died and I, um, you know, uh, the thing that I immediately missed the most was I have so much to tell him. I remember having a panic attack two days after he died because I was like it's only been two days and I have so much to talk to him about, and now I have to live like this with this feeling, and what a great thing to miss, right? You know everyone's like oh, don't you feel relieved because he was in so much pain or like it was a suffering. And I just thought this is just a different feeling. When you have an ongoing conversation with somebody for most of your life, like to me, man, I think that is that's the best marriage, right?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, and I'm curious, lisa, in what ways did Christopher's diagnosis of ALS change your marriage, if at all? For example, we know from the research that health issues it could be really hard on marriages. So I'm curious if you used it as a gift almost in a way, did you intentionally make more time for each other? Did you treat each other differently? Not let little things bug you anymore, more kindness, more gratitude, those types of things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it totally changed our marriage. When you get a terminal diagnosis, everything changes Like it is not business as usual, and I remember it shifted right in the beginning where it was like, okay, it's like go time, for me, he will deteriorate every day was the reality of it, and so I need to get stronger every day. I need to balance that. We talk so much when we talk about marriages and relationships, of them being equitable. I just don't even know what that means anymore. I think that's the wrong focus. I saw some statistic too that really depressed me just recently about when men get terminal diagnoses. It was something like 2.1% of the spouses of the women leave, or whatever. And then it was like when a woman gets a terminal diagnosis, it was like. It was like a like oh yeah, it was really high.
Speaker 3:It was like a 600 percent more like they're more likely to leave than they would not have.
Speaker 2:It was like, um, the most ridiculous statistic. And I just like, couldn't like really look at it, because I just thought, here's my perspective when he got that terminal disease. And I looked at, I just, and I said this to a friend he had been such a good husband and such a good friend to me that there was no like, there was no hesitation of like, of what I wouldn't do to make him comfortable. And I realized that you know everyone's like oh, you're such a saint or whatever. And I was like, no, it's not that, I'm really not, it's. We had had a pattern in our marriage. He'd been such a good husband that I knew he would do that for me. I know he'd do anything for me and I know that he would have taken care of me if the roles had been reversed. So I just it made me want to take care of him all that more.
Speaker 2:And what was really kind of cool in a horrible situation is that our love wasn't, it was totally proved, it wasn't theoretical, like everyone's like in sickness and health. No matter what happens, I'll be there for you. I'll you know. And it's like, will you? But will you when you have to wipe know? And it's like will you? But will you? When you have to wipe up the drool off their face, will you do? You know what I mean when they're you know, when you know it's going to end badly, like what will you do? And now I, now I know what I would. It will do and I did it and I and he deserved it. He deserved the best care and I did my best and it was.
Speaker 2:It was like frustrating and humiliating and it was everything, the most extreme situations, and we got to experience that together and we got to say I'm sorry and we got to just be in it and I just I got to make promises to him that I wouldn't let him suffer and that I would take good care of him and that I would take good care of our kids. And I kept my promise to him. And there's just something like I'm, I'm just so like that's my greatest life work, right, and it's not theoretical, you know. And the way that he treated me, the things that he said to me, how he treated me when he knew he was dying, I just again, it's not theoretical anymore. He did it and it's not theoretical anymore. He did it.
Speaker 2:He was such a good, kind, generous, loving, human and partner to the end. And we have that and I know it's possible. And so it's so weird, having been widowed and being single for five years almost, to talk about marriage, because I feel like no one really asks me about what a good marriage is and I just want to say I know what it is, I had it. It's possible anybody two weirdos can have a great marriage. It's like it's the greatest joy, it's the greatest thing, and he gave that to me.
Speaker 3:When he was diagnosed, Lisa, I couldn't quite hear if you said it's go time or no time for Lisa Go time.
Speaker 2:It was go time. It was like my role in the marriage became so clear to me. You know, like I said, said earlier a lot of times, immature relationships you're like, well, did they call back? Well did he, you know, did. Well, he did. What did he do for my birthday? Well then, this is what I'll do, and we just kind of keep scoring stuff and like I'm just not interested in that kind of relationship. Um, I just think it's so immature.
Speaker 2:But but like we had practiced and we've been each other's friends, that and and had sacrificed for each other, like sacrificed big things for each other, both of us had. And then, when it came to and you get a diagnosis, you will live on average between two and four years. This is it. And then, and it just changed everything because I just thought it's go time for me. This is the time that I turn it up and go into overdrive to help him more than I ever have, because he is dying.
Speaker 2:The best person in the world is dying and I'm not having that experience.
Speaker 2:We're having two totally different experiences and I'm not having that experience. We're having two totally different experiences and that's hard in a marriage and that was hard because he was preparing to die and to leave and I was preparing to help him do that and then to be able to continue our family on by myself, which I didn't know if I could do, and so I was going through a morning process, he's going through a morning process and we're trying to help each other and we're on two totally different paths. Because of the nature of that, and that is a hard, hard thing. That is probably one of the hardest things that I've ever had to do, because your person is going through something different and you're so used to being totally aligned but they can't.
Speaker 2:It's so cruel for me to be like, well, help me know how to live without you. Like, okay, you know. It's just like him saying to help me know how to die, okay, I'll try. And so we just were very I just thinking this isn't about you at all and that's okay. This is just how it is and he deserves that. So just give it to him and worry about the rest later.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean, yep.
Speaker 2:Well, I can't even imagine actually, but I hear you world, Because sometimes we would, you know, be able to help each other, like I'm having a really hard day and thinking about this and we would still be there for each other. But there are some moments where you're just like, oh, I'm not going to put this on him at this moment, because it's happening to him so. So it did change our marriage in that sense, and in that way it's so hard because nobody I had known had ever gone through that, and so I felt really alone. I can imagine you were alone.
Speaker 3:But you know, I've kind of forgotten hearing that a lot of that onus responsibility of caregiving fell on your shoulders regarding the time of COVID, a huge, huge burden for caring for him, for your children, and so I was wondering, if you know it was go time and actually no time for Lisa as well? How did you take?
Speaker 2:care of yourself. I didn't, I didn't, and it's okay because I mean, I did the best I could under extraordinary circumstances. Um, then then came years later and then came, you know, health problems and things like that because of the consequences of that, which are fine, like okay, great. But um, you know, life is long, long and for some of us and that was an extraordinary time, and I did receive strength beyond my own I still don't know how all of that happened, but I give that to God. It was me and God, and I was like, well, I have no solutions to offer and I'm going to need a lot more help, and I don't even know what to ask for, because this is the most ridiculous situation. And, um, and so my faith, uh, really, really kicked. In. Um, I mean, it was always there, but it was just like, okay, it was like walking off a cliff and trusting that somebody was going to catch you and uh, so so that was the, the next part of that, for sure it's the ultimate trust, isn't it?
Speaker 3:oh yeah, again, not theoretical anymore right during that time, how did you help your five children stay involved and connected with each other through their dad's illness and they? They took turns helping you care for him.
Speaker 2:Like you said it, was really tricky because they were all at different levels developmentally and so different ages, and it was a family affair to take care of dad and he would tease them and write him little messages on his screen so they communicated and he would share different things with them share, you know, he's really into film and one of my kids is really into film and so they would watch all these old films together. Other kids, like my oldest, really became the second caregiver and would take the shift from 10 pm to 10 am and I would take 10 am to 10 pm and we just kind of helped each other that way and so that was very tender and the other children would come and help him. It was really hard because with different developmental things happening and also during COVID, a lot of them were very depressed and anxious and we tried to create regular days. We tried to create oh, we get up and have breakfast and do our schoolwork and laugh and do something fun and then do this and then talk together and try to keep it like those ordinary days. Those ordinary days of family life are where it's at right. That's better than a trip to Disneyland, that's better than a deathbed confessional. It really just is. There's nothing like the ordinary day of just being with your family. It's the most precious thing in the whole world. And so that COVID time gave time.
Speaker 2:My kids most of them were teenagers at the time and I think had they not been forced to, would have, like most teenagers, been with their friends a lot, been outside and, because it was pretty intense, your dad's dying of a terminal disease Like who wouldn't want to escape that and developmentally they're not thinking about how that's going to affect them, but because of later down the line, but because it was COVID, they had to, and now they have no regrets that they didn't spend enough time with their dad, and so I like to remind them of that. You spent a lot of time with your dad. He knew how much you loved him and we talk about the funny things that he did and said, we talk about the meaningful things, but they have good memories and he gave them that. He could have made it so traumatic and crying every day, and he left them with some fun memories, with some good memories, with some clear advice. Such a gift, yeah.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, not everybody gets that, so they get that?
Speaker 1:No, yeah, wow, lisa, I'm guessing that taking care of Christopher for these several years wasn't just a one-sided effort, if you will, you talked a little bit about that, but I love this theme of turning outward. And in what ways did christopher, you know, while he could turn outward and and focus on you, you know he saw the sacrifice, maybe you wearing down, you getting tired. I can only imagine, from the character that you've described him, that he's like I'm gonna do whatever I can for. Oh, he totally did, yes oh, so many things.
Speaker 2:You know he would make me laugh. He would write me messages, text me funny things that he was thinking about. He always had something to like, for us to like look forward to, would need later. Like when he told me about what, uh he wanted, uh, my life to be like when he left, I just I, it was the worst conversations and he'd say, I know, but I want you to hear this, and he would tell me, um, great thanks and and um, that was very generous. He uh talked to my friends and that was very generous. He talked to my friends and gave them advice on how to take care of me when he was gone. He did the same thing with our children. He made sure that everything was in order.
Speaker 2:Soon after his diagnosis, we went and got everything in a trust so that when it was like end of life care and those decisions he wanted to make, those when he was coherent what a gift. He wrote his own funeral. What a gift. He said this. He wrote his own life story, what he wanted to be remembered for. What a gift. All of those things that cause so much like stress and grief and heaviness he was able to say, and I think the biggest thing is he gave me those ordinary days like I was talking about. We still are going to go out on date night, we're still going to have those intimate moments and he wanted to be able to be just adapt as much as possible so that I was happy. He planned an elaborate 25th wedding anniversary surprise two days before he died. He couldn't move or speak. He called in favors. He called our friend in to cater a meal and I'm like you can't even eat. He's like I'll just watch you eat. And he called our brother-in-law that and had him make me a silver brace because it's the 25th anniversary of silver, a silver bracelet. He had one of our friends come and sing, hey, who was on American Idol. I was like Ryan and he was so great. He had another one of our friends you know our theater friends come and decorate the backyard and this elaborate so it looked like an Italian restaurant.
Speaker 2:Of course, all of this during COVID, so that we were all socially distant, just sobbing, separated from each other, just being like what is happening, and he was in a lot of pain at that time. But he wanted to give me a big anniversary present. He wanted to tell me how much he loved me. And who does that while they're dying? Chris Clark does that. And I just was like, oh, you're making this hard for me that. And I just was like, oh, you're, you're making this hard for me.
Speaker 2:But so to say, that's just one example of a lot of of like, really like tender, sweet things that he continually did for me. He would say you're doing such a good job of keeping me alive, like I know I've lived years extra than I would have if I didn't get such good care and you take such I don't worry about our kids at all because you're going to take care Like. He just had such a confidence in me that I just didn't have. And that was really sweet. He just was my biggest cheerleader and thought I could do anything, even when I was like I, I can't, I'm really grumpy and I'm kind of a horrible person. And he'd be like, no, you're not. You know, when someone sees the best in you, is that the best marriage right? Like sees the best version of you to give you the benefit of the doubt. It makes you want to be that person.
Speaker 3:You know it just does so she was your biggest cheerleader fan, yeah, up to his dying day, literally in his last, his last, oh yeah, oh, I had not heard of your 25th wedding anniversary that sounds.
Speaker 1:That's very special wow yeah, portable.
Speaker 3:It was amazing, yeah, and then he went into a coma and passed like a movie yeah, like yeah, yeah, and I was like okay, chris, I will be happy for you then you said earlier in our interview about how we really are responsible for our thoughts and our, our actions and we we have control over how we respond, and you use that, um, literally individually as well as collectively in in marriage. Tell us more about about that you really took ownership of how you showed up every day.
Speaker 2:It sounds like lisa well, uh, you know, that's life, right? I, when chris got his diagnosis, we were both in the middle of like a very busy time for us, um, and I remember he had to go speak at a conference for his work and I had a job I had an acting job that I was gonna go to california, and I remember we got this diagnosis and it was it takes kind of a long time to get diagnosed and in that time we're just an absolute mess and there was a little bit of a relief in, okay, this is what it is, this is what we're facing, right. But also like, okay, this is literally the worst case scenario, like we can't fight this, like we can't get chemo or treatments, or like we can't do anything. And so I I was like and, chris, we were dealing with it and trying to figure out how we tell our kids and our friends and family. And and then I was like, well then, obviously you're not going to your conference and I'm not going to go to california, and obviously we're not gonna, you know. And he was like not going to go to California, and obviously we're not going to, you know. And he was like what are you talking about? And I was like, well, he's like well, what should we do, like stop living life? And I was like, yeah, kind of I, I was like I don't want to leave the house, I want to get in bed. That seems like I don't think I'm wrong here. That's actually seems like the appropriate response.
Speaker 2:And I remember he looked at me and he said well, you can do whatever you want, obviously, but I'm not going to live like that. I'm going to like we had some friends that were getting married and he was like I'm going to the wedding and then the next day I'm going to work and I'm going to go to this conference and I'm going to live my life. We've got, because that is the only way that I can do this, lisa, he's like I, I, I'm going to live my life and live it to the fullest, now that I know that there's a there's a clock on it and you can do whatever you want. But that's not going to make you happy, just so you know. And it was kind of a little bit of this tough love of like, not like oh, honey, it's going to be okay. It was like I don't know if you're kidding, and I actually don't think you're kidding, but I'm not going to, I I'm not doing that. And I was like, okay, I guess I'll go act and be funny like and and. But I like that because it really put into focus of I can, I could do whatever I wanted to do. I could have gotten back in bed, and there have been days that I've done that, of course, and just felt sorry for myself. It's not how I want to live. It actually doesn't make you feel any better and it doesn't do any good. I've learned doesn't do any good. Um, I've learned. Um.
Speaker 2:But what he did, which was, well, I'm going to keep directing and and and creating art and being with my friends and being in a good dad and husband and, um, I'm going to do those things and I'm just going to adapt it until I die. And that's exactly what he did, because when he died, he was he. When he died, he had stopped doing some things that he could, but he was still creating, he was still writing plays, he was still on Zoom and pre-production for a couple of things. He was our kid's self-appointed seminary and theater teacher during COVID and he was typing out blessings for our kids and he was typing out his life story and getting his pictures like he was still creating and doing every single day of his life. He never stopped. You know, when he couldn't play the piano anymore he was like, okay, well, then I'll just keep directing. And when he couldn't speak anymore he stopped directing and teaching and then he just was producing and he just kept going and he really lived that.
Speaker 2:And it's been a good example to me, because after he died and the lights went out and life was just stupid, I thought I can stop and disappear or I can keep creating and doing like Chris did, and then maybe that will create something new.
Speaker 2:And it did. It created some hope. And so when I say that we get to choose how we live our lives and I think about Chris and within a marriage, it's absolutely like you are responsible for your own happiness. If you are looking for the other person to make you happy or to give you meaning, that's too heavy to put that on a burden on someone and it's just not how we live life. At the end of the day, we are born alone, we die alone. Even if we're surrounded with our loved ones or whatever, is it a solitary thing and you're still alone. And what a gift. It is to be in a marriage, though, with someone that says I am responsible for my own happiness and I'm actively choosing to be happy as much as I can and be in it with you, no matter what you choose, what a gift.
Speaker 2:But we don't talk about marriage. I think a lot in those terms, do we?
Speaker 2:No, we, talk about it in terms of being equal and what you can give and holding and withholding. And you need to make me happy and you need to do these lists. And I'm looking for this kind of person that checks off these and it's just like what is that list? Listen, I'm looking for this kind of person that checks off these and it's just like what is that list? Who do you want to be and who do you want to have? Come along for the ride. It is a little bit more inviting and it's creating something together that you don't know the future of, but you're creating it together, you're not dictating it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll be right back after this brief message, and we're back, let's dive right in. I love that. Emily bell freeman has actually described your love. Uh, at least for each other. Is this brave love right? This kind that isn't afraid to, to risk to, to give, to sacrifice? It's not focused on the tit for tat, the equal, no, and I love that about you, has it always kind of just been that way? Is the outward focus this brave love? We're all in on this journey.
Speaker 2:I think we learned it together right, like a lot of things in a marriage. We stumbled into it and I just remember early, especially early on in his diagnosis, a friend asked me point blank if you knew, if you knew that he was gonna this was gonna happen to you and to your family and to him, would you go back and you I won't tell anyone, I won't tell him, I will not tell a soul would you go back and marry him again? And I said yeah, like no, doubt 100%. And she's like okay, there you have it Now you know, and you don't ever have to doubt. And I thought what a gift it was that she asked me that, like right, when everything was raw and I was trying to figure out what was going to go on, because we all know that something happens to when you are a caregiver to somebody. You love them, you love who you serve. Right when you are a caregiver, like a mother to a child who literally cannot survive without you, and then you turn that and I knew that that's what I was facing with Chris. Chris is that I would be giving everything that I have to keep him alive and for his comfort. I knew I would fall deeper in love with him, and I knew that that would hurt me even more because I loved him so much.
Speaker 2:And the thought of losing him, I couldn't even think about it. I couldn't even think about the future. It was like so dark. Losing him, I couldn't even think about it. I couldn't even think about the future. It was like, so dark and I was like, if I care for him a hundred percent, like as much as I can and more, it's going to hurt me later.
Speaker 2:And I still did it, and he still did it, and he did that for me. And it was like, and I remember thinking I've got to make the choice Am I going to keep a distance, you know, so that it doesn't hurt so much, and so that I care for him? But it's like, or am I just gonna just let myself just go deeper? And I just was like I don't want any regrets. I don't know what will happen, what emily meant, but that's what I took it as is. We looked at each other like, okay, you're it, let's do it, and we did just give everything to each other. It wasn't one-sided at all, but, um, it was life-altering and um, I don't regret it, but, um, it has a cost yeah and, and I'll just say that yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3:Well, no doubt all of us will face something in life, right, it's serious, life-altering health or some other challenge. We're going to be going through it. What advice do you have, especially for those couples maybe, who right now are facing serious health challenges Lisa, or maybe someone who's lost their sweetheart?
Speaker 2:I think the advice would be different. If somebody is going through something with that's life threatening with their partner, I would I would say just go all in, just take care of them. Just go all in, just take care of them, don't worry about the consequences of that. Uh, that kind of service creates a deep love that is hard to describe and, um, it's worthy of, like a life focus. It has value. It is worthy. Um, we don't value it as a society at all, but that doesn't matter. It's still absolutely worth it. Don't worry about what comes next For those who have lost someone.
Speaker 2:I think my advice is the advice that Christopher gave me before he died, that I didn't want to hear that. Now I hear loud and clear that you don't honor the love that you had with someone, the relationship that you had, by ceasing to exist, by giving up, by swearing off love and life and good memories and personal development. You don't honor love and that relationship that way. You honor it by going out and loving and creating and living and being present in your life. And it's not a betrayal. You never forget. It has already changed you. You can, can't. The memories are you. You are a result of that relationship, you will be more equipped to love people in the future. Because of that. That's the whole point. So I would just say just don't give up um the idea of living and and loving because, uh, you've done it so intensely. You honor that by continuing to do it Beautiful advice.
Speaker 1:Lisa, you've talked in the past about finding joy in life, you know, and that involves hope, it involves being present in the moment we talked about earlier. It involves gratitude. Tell us your thoughts about finding and kind of just soaking in joy. Right, this life is about joy and happiness and, yes, there will be challenges. How have you been able to almost like slow down and say, hey, let me just appreciate right now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I mean implicit in your question is this idea of recognizing where it is now.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of times we have this expectation of what it will look like for us, so that we miss what it actually is when it shows up.
Speaker 2:And I think the first thing is to recognize that you're worthy of it, that no one is excluded from the idea of joy. I think we try to exclude ourselves or other people from who gets to have joy and under what circumstances. I mean, during a global pandemic, when everything's shut down and your husband is dying of a terminal disease and you have five teenagers at home who are super mad and depressed, should you have joy? No, you shouldn't. But guess what we did? You know what I mean, and if I had clung to this idea of what it should look like instead of just recognizing what it actually is in the moment, which was totally different than I thought it was going to be I would have missed it.
Speaker 2:Joy is our birthright. I just believe that it is our birthright that men are, that they might receive joy. I think everything that has been given to us by our Heavenly Father is for this ultimate joy, which doesn't mean and what is actually happening and you feel the depths of sorrow and the injustice of life. And I think it gives you a superpower to be able to see the light and to see joy and recognize it, because you're more desperate for it, and to feel it more deeply and to appreciate it. And so I think if people are not feeling that kind of joy that they want to, is just to maybe like recognize. Do you think that this is part of your birthright? Is this why you're here or not? And then being able to say, well, where might you see it that you might not have have recognized it before, does it make it any less true?
Speaker 2:you know, yeah, and I think you only recognize that by being in the present right, like being in your life, being in your body, experiencing what is actually happening, instead of being haunted by the past or fearful of the future that you have to be present, and that is a mental game yeah, it really is, because our brain wants to go to the past with anger, regret and or the future was stressing well, and honestly, too, if you've been through trauma, intrusive thoughts too, right, like that's a real thing, and and and taking care of your body means taking care of your mind and your mental health and and um, I have some experience with that of like, trying to, like, you know, having horrible dreams and intrusive thoughts and panic attacks and things like that, and being able to take the time to heal.
Speaker 2:That. To recognize this doesn't mean that it excludes me from joy and it doesn't mean that those things are true, but it does mean that I need to get healthy right like so yeah, but realizing that it's possible and that it's going to look a little bit differently is, I think, the way that that door sort of opens.
Speaker 2:It did for me when I had no hope for like a happy future or anything. I was just like, well, it's over, I don't even care individual thing for everybody. But by being present and recognizing all of the things that I didn't know and acknowledging that was a start to that and realizing, no, this is actually is this is actually important to God, this is actually an important idea to to me, for my children. So this is something that I need to give the time to really think about.
Speaker 1:Wow, Lisa, before we let you go, you've been so generous with your time and all kinds of insights and tips and things for us to think about. We'd like to ask all of our guests a couple questions. The first one is what do you feel like is the key to a stronger marriage connection?
Speaker 2:I think the key to a stronger marriage connection is a loyalty to friendship for each other. I do Loyalty.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:A loyalty in friendship, I think, is the easiest way I can say it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great. Second question is we call it a takeaway of the day. Do you have a takeaway of the day for us, a parting counsel, something you want our listeners to remember from our discussion today of the day for us, a parting counsel, something you want our listeners to remember from our discussion?
Speaker 2:today. Yeah, I think my takeaway today is that and this may sound really cheesy- but I don't care, I can't wait.
Speaker 2:That's delicious.
Speaker 2:Love is a gift, right, and you can categorize it however you want Charity, pure love, romantic love, friendship love, whatever.
Speaker 2:I do think that there is that love. Anytime you decide to give that to someone, it is such a gift and by seeing it that way and not just assuming that it should be there, not just assuming that it's just how we live, but like seeing it as something special, helps us to not take it for granted and helps us to give it to people more intentionally, in a way that they can feel it, not just the way that we want to give it to them. I think that improves all of our relationships and I think having strong relationships like with friends, with your family, with your children, actually helps your marriage become stronger, because you're just practicing love in a different form and that one person that you've chosen to really focus most of your love on benefits from that. So seeing love like that and like it's a gift, that it's not a wasted thing when you do that, but that it's an actual, intentional thing, I think could change a lot of people's lives.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful. Yeah, thank you, Liz. What about you? What's your takeaway of the day? You?
Speaker 3:know Dave and Lisa. Before our interview I would have said if people had asked, why are you kind of all in on your marriage? I would have said, oh yeah, of course I am. And now I'm thinking, gosh, I think I've got some area of improvement. Obviously I don't know if I need to get a big B on my t-shirt for Ben or what I need to do about Lisa. You're making me think about how that could look even better to be all in marriage, to be loyal to that friendship. I'm really grateful for your beautiful words of wisdom today, dave. What about you? What's your richest nugget? You hope that all of us remember from our time together with Lisa Valentine Clark.
Speaker 1:Yeah, super powerful. Lisa. I think your story talking about Chris, when he turned outward, he would focus on you. I don't know. For some reason this really touched me because I feel like when we are suffering, when we're going through it, when we're stressed, when we're mad, whatever it is that we're going through, to have an outward mindset, to turn outward is really hard, because when we're feeling that, the natural response is to turn inward and when I'm inward I can't even see you or see what you need me. But I am just moved by Christopher's when he's going through it. He's dying and yet he's like kids and you and I'm going to take care of that. That 25th anniversary, it leaves me speechless honestly, I know.
Speaker 1:For him to think ahead and to plan. Just that outward mindset of him planning and thinking, it's powerful. If we could all live like Chris holy smoke when we're going through it, that is the ultimate. It feels like this charity, this that love, it's mind boggling to me.
Speaker 3:You're right.
Speaker 1:You're right, powerful. Thank you, lisa. Lisa, where can our listeners go to find out more about you? You've got podcast resources, please share.
Speaker 2:Thanks. I host the Lisa show, where we talk about, like living a good life. It's like going to lunch with a friend Right and and and sharing this kind of stuff about relationships, but also you know parenting and and ADHD and you know estate planning. I mean, I mean a million different things. I'm looking at Like we, we talk about sleep hygiene and family culture and you know all this stuff that goes into living life. So the Lisa show wherever you find your podcasts. And I also host another show called Council of Moms, where we get a bunch of moms together and we're like, okay, what are we doing about this to help you feel like you're not alone in all of it when you the most important job that you're doing. So that's really fun too, and you can find that wherever you get your podcasts as well.
Speaker 2:And we'll be sure to put links to those for our listeners.
Speaker 1:We're going to put links in our show notes for Talisa, her podcast, the great work that she's doing, and, of course, I've seen her many times with John, by the way, hank Smith, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:We have such a good time together. Yeah, it's such a good time. You, you guys look like you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's such a good time. You're laughing as much as we are in the audience. It's so fun to see you guys perform. Thanks, such a fun time. Well, lisa, thanks so much for making time, for opening up, for sharing with us and our listeners.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thanks for having me, thanks for letting me talk about Christopher and marriage.
Speaker 1:Thank you what a blessing.
Speaker 3:Thank you for sharing your heart and your love.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, we appreciate you and our friends. We will see you next time on another episode of stronger marriage connection.
Speaker 3:And remember it's a small things that create a stronger marriage connection. Take good care.
Speaker 1:Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us a favor and take a second to subscribe to our podcast and the Utah Marriage Commission YouTube channel at Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the show. Be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at Stronger Marriage Life, and Facebook at Stronger Marriage, so be sure to share with us which topics you loved or which guests we should have on the show. Next, if you want even more resources to improve your marriage or relationship connection, visit StrongerMarriageorg, where you'll find free workshops, e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys and more. Each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, rex Polanis, and the team at Utah State University and you, our audience. You make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.