Stronger Marriage Connection

Unpacking Bad Marriage Advice | Monica Tanner | #144

• Utah Marriage Comission • Season 4 • Episode 144

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Relationship coach Monica Tanner returns to discuss her new book "Bad Marriage Advice: 15 Myths That Are Keeping You Miserable" and challenges conventional wisdom that may be damaging marriages. She explores how common advice like "happy wife, happy life" and "don't sweat the small stuff" creates imbalanced relationships, poor communication patterns, and prevents couples from addressing issues before they become serious problems.

• "Happy wife, happy life" places too much responsibility on women for the emotional atmosphere while encouraging men to silence their own needs
• "Divorce is not an option" can prevent couples from growing and making necessary changes when they believe they're stuck regardless of effort
• Instead of compromise where nobody gets what they want, try collaboration through curiosity about each other's underlying needs
• Newlyweds should establish a relationship with a coach/counselor early as prevention rather than waiting for crisis
• "Don't sweat the small stuff" ignores how minor irritations become major resentments—address issues while they're still small
• Most relationship patterns stem from childhood programming and past experiences that shape automatic reactions
• The key to stronger marriages is consciousness (understanding yourself and your partner) and effective communication
• Happily ever after is possible when couples view marriage as a "people-growing machine" that helps them become their best selves

Find Monica Tanner's book at badmarriageadvice.com or learn more about her work at monicatanner.com.


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Dr. Dave Schramm:

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http://drdavespeaks.com

Dr. Liz Hale:

http://www.drlizhale.com/

Speaker 1:

We've all given or received marriage advice at some point. But what if some of that well-meaning wisdom is actually doing more harm than good? On today's episode, liz and I are thrilled to welcome back relationship coach, podcaster and author Monica Tanner. She's here to share insights from her brand new book Bad Marriage Advice, where she unpacks popular but problematic tips like don't sweat the small stuff and happy wife, happy life, and offers smarter alternatives instead. Monica Tanner is a relationship coach and host of the Secrets of Happily Ever After podcast. She's on a mission to lower the divorce rate and boost marital satisfaction through practical tools for communication, connection, conflict resolution and commitment. Her programs, podcasts and vibrant online community have helped thousands of couples ditch resentment and roommate syndrome and reclaim their happily ever after. We hope you enjoy the show.

Speaker 1:

Hey friends, welcome to another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection podcast. I'm Dr Dave here at USU, alongside Dr Liz Hill, our therapist, and we're aiming to bring you the very best that we have in research and resources and tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. Okay, liz, as you know, our second daughter was married back in April. I was talking with her not long ago about some marriage tips Everyone loves to offer newlyweds especially oh, I do this or do that, or make sure you don't do this. And she received from people and it was all over the place, honestly this advice. It sure seems like people are still stuck in ways of thinking that lead to just plain bad marriage advice. Well, our guest is back, by popular demand and she's written a book. I love the title oh, bad Marriage Advice 15 Myths that Are Keeping you Miserable. Welcome back to the show, monica Tanner.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be with you guys, today Good to have you back, Monica.

Speaker 3:

Thank you yeah.

Speaker 1:

Thrilled to have you back. I'm curious. Let's jump right in, monica. What's the story? Can you give us a little bit of background story to your new book Bad?

Speaker 2:

Marriage Advice. I'm eager to hear how it all came about. Yeah, so it was really crazy.

Speaker 2:

So my son returned home from his mission and very shortly thereafter announced that he wanted to marry this girl, and my husband and I were super excited about it.

Speaker 2:

We met her and no red flags or anything like that. We were very excited, except for the fact that they were both very young, and so I thought, wow, they are going to get so much marriage advice, but what could I give them from my heart in 23 years of marriage and also working with couples? So I sat down to write kind of a letter to them for their wedding and it turned into a book and really it was about me combating so much of the bad marriage advice that not only my husband and I received when we first got married, but also working with couples who are very attached to certain ideas that I can see is wreaking havoc, so things that we've had to unwind in their minds and work with, so things that we've had to kind of unwind in their minds and work with. I wanted to kind of set them on a firm foundation of just solid principles that were going to help them succeed in their marriage, and so that's how Bad Marriage Advice was born.

Speaker 1:

I love it. Yeah, I love the title and yes, you're right, that must be one long letter. He's probably like mom, are you serious? But amazing, I mean, you turn this into a book, man. I'm telling you it is so needed, so I can't wait to dive in and learn more.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, you and me both. What a gift, what a gift to give your son and daughter-in-law.

Speaker 2:

So they've been married now how long They've been married a little over a month and I feel like I set a pretty powerful precedence because I still have three more children who get married. I'm like, well, I hope I have three more books, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Just keep adding to them, because this has got to be a winner. I can't wait to get my hands on it. Quite honestly, what's some of the worst marriage advice that keeps us stuck, monica? What have you heard through the years? I'm sure you've kept track, and what are some of those zingers that you think, oh boy, we got to put an end to this one.

Speaker 2:

It's interesting because you'll recognize there's a lot of cliches. When I pulled my audience and I was like what's the worst marriage advice you got? And so many people said happy wife, happy life. Because that's still such a cliche that you are all. I see it all over social media. You've got the guy walking around with the microphone and he's interviewing couples and he'll stop them on the street and they're like she's the boss, she wears the pants. If she's happy, we're all happy, all in the. It's like I sometimes cringe and I'm like I wonder if that guy really believes that if they really operate like that, because it sounds really good, it's really romantic, like, oh, how sweet, he's always thinking about her feelings.

Speaker 3:

But what a terrible precedence to set that we only care about one partner's happiness precedence to set that we only care about one partner's happiness, because I've been known to kind of think along those lines, but not so much that the husband's happiness is not important, right. But it just seems, like men in general, they really. It's like a woman's happiness is really imperative to them, right, they really want to be her hero. So, oh gosh, sometimes there's another way or another meaning, but I nonetheless, I really get what you're saying.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, because a good man does worry about his wife's happiness, right, and that is important. However, there's two sides of this One. You know, that's a lot of responsibility for a woman to be in charge of the emotional atmosphere of the marriage. So if she's not happy, well then nobody's happy. It's like we got to keep Mom's crazy. So as long as we keep her happy, everything else is going to be okay.

Speaker 2:

So there's the negative connotation there for the wife, the happy wife, but also for the husband who's like constantly just working around his wife's happiness, revolving around her happiness. Eventually, like once he's not getting his needs met as well, he's going to disengage, he's going to withdraw, he's going to be like it doesn't matter what I want, we always do what she wants, right. Another really important aspect of why this advice is just a recipe for disaster is this idea that if he's not communicating, it engenders lazy communication. Because if he doesn't have to think about his wants and needs, if he doesn't have the opportunity to express them because he's constantly just worried about hers, then he's not getting what he needs, he's not getting what he wants and eventually that's going to fall apart. Okay, good point. I got it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So I like to replace that with happy spouse, happy house. We care about both partners and their happiness and we want to make sure that that communication, where both of us are stepping up to the plate, showing up and making our needs and wants, heard.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's clever. That is clever, thank you for that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yes, love that. Actually, monica, tell me about toxic advice. What is it that you see older couples struggling with in your practice? Is it similar things or is it different?

Speaker 2:

I think, especially a lot of times I work with couples who ascribe to this advice that divorce is not an option, and that can be really, really toxic, in that it keeps couples from really working to make adjustments, to make themselves pleasing to their partner, to really grow into the relationship and to keep on putting into the relationship Not only that, but kind of like the happy wife, happy life, stepping up to the plate and not standing up for themselves, being able to say these are my wants, these are my needs, these are my preferences. How can we get more of what we both want out of this relationship? Because this idea that divorce is not an option kind of you're kind of stuck with me so I don't really have to try, or I'm not going to get what I want here because there's no out. We made a commitment, however, many years ago, and so what happens is I see a lot of couples who they've raised their children and now they're at a crossroads.

Speaker 2:

They're like we don't have much of a relationship. We kind of we didn't connect very well. We kind of built our family around our kids. Now our kids are leaving. We don't have very much left. So do we try and make this a good scenario for both of us? Or do we just kind of lay down and live out the rest of our lives, or do we consider moving on? And so a lot of the couples that come to me. They haven't really cared for their relationship. They did more of building their family around their children and their wants and needs, and now they're left in a precarious situation where they're not sure how to move forward.

Speaker 3:

Let's talk next to Bell. Let's talk about compromise. Yeah, you say you're not a fan. Why is compromise so destructive to a healthy marriage and what do you suggest is the alternative?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So that's another one. When you ask couples like older couples who have been together for a really long time, they'll say well, you just have to learn to compromise. And when I hear that word, I think of I give, you give, we take turns giving. Nobody actually gets what they want.

Speaker 2:

Here we have to sacrifice so much, especially when I think about women who have sacrificed their dreams for the relationship, or the man who has subscribed to that idea of happy wife, happy life. They've compromised so much of their own needs to keep their wife happy and it's really unfortunate, but I do think that it's well-meaning advice. And back in the day, when we didn't have so many options, maybe compromise was necessary. But we have so many options now. There are so many resources for couples to go to. When it comes to how to live, how to work, there's so many different. I mean, we can do all of our work online now. How to educate the kids these are big topics that couples usually compromise on. But because there are so many resources and options and there's not just one right way to do things, there's no reason to ever compromise. What happens when we compromise is it again allows for this lazy communication. It's like all right, well, I'll give this, I'll give a little, you'll give a little, we'll meet in the middle and really neither of us gets exactly what we want versus what I like to call collaboration.

Speaker 2:

This requires some curiosity. So when you find yourselves having two different opinions, if you will stop and get curious why do I feel so strongly about my position on this issue? And then get curious about your partner. I wonder why they feel so strongly about their position. What is so important to them and what feels very important to me?

Speaker 2:

And then, if you communicate about those things, there's really no reason why, once you have a better understanding of your partner and yourself, like what are my reservations about my partner's position as well and what are their reservations about my position? Once you're armed with all of that knowledge, then you can go to, like, let's say, ChatGPT or YouTube, and be like what are all of the options that are available with keeping these things in mind, these core things that are really important to me and really important to my spouse, and how can we come up with a collaboration and a cooperation that both of us feel really good about? So compromise is kind of out. That's kind of like the old way of doing things. Collaboration is what's in now. I like it.

Speaker 3:

I love it actually.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that is good. I know I'm jotting notes down here. This is good stuff you mentioned about getting. I love the C's right Compromise to collaboration, cooperation and getting curious as well. It's just that whole idea of pausing. It feels like in recent years, instead of being I call it a nuclear reactor just reacting, it's this first responder slow down, get curious, assess the situation and then purposely respond rather than react.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's so good.

Speaker 1:

I love that, monica. I mentioned earlier our daughter, one of our daughters. We're going to actually be grandparents next month. Yeah, with our oldest daughter.

Speaker 2:

Oh, that's so exciting.

Speaker 1:

Grandparents for the first time. She got married in April and for her and others, do you have some go-to advice for newlyweds?

Speaker 2:

Yes, and I feel so strongly about this and the more I've gotten into this newlywed space and I've watched my own baby get married where I'm just like oh my goodness for newlywed couples is to get in with a really good coach or counselor and just have a few sessions where you really think about and talk about the different dynamics, your different experiences, how to talk about and share about the different experiences you've had in your life, especially around some of those sensitive topics like sex and money and how to raise kids and how many kids you want. Figure out what your dynamics look like, kind of do an assessment has there been any trauma? Are there going to be any big challenges that are easy to spot from here? And then get some really good conflict resolution, repair skills, communication skills, so that when you do bump up against those issues, you can talk about them without the communication breaking down. And then not only that, but once you've established before there's a problem, you've established with somebody that you trust, that now knows the relationship, you can go back.

Speaker 2:

So there's a statistic that says that couples wait six years in a miserable circumstance before they seek help. Now, really, what are the odds that someone's going to be able to go six years into the problematic dynamic and unwind all of that. But now you have a new couple that's already established with somebody they trust. They're familiar with the individuals and their dynamics and now, when they do come up with an issue like where should we move, how do we educate the kids? We're really struggling with money, or whatever the issue is, they can go to this person who already has like a really clear vision of that relationship and quickly work through their problems prevention, prevention it's like an insurance policy that you don't have to pay into all the time.

Speaker 2:

Right, you just set it up in the beginning of the marriage and then it's like an insurance policy that you don't have to pay into all the time. Right, you just set it up in the beginning of the marriage and then it's there when you need it oh so smart yeah, getting that support right, yeah, can we just there?

Speaker 3:

just isn't enough because we have blind spots. We can't really see straight either, you know, so I like that. Then, of course, if somebody retires, right, you have to start over, but nonetheless do start over. If you have to, right, always have that supportive person in your back pocket.

Speaker 2:

It's great advice, yeah, and I just think like there's so much strength in knowing when to ask for help. You know, couples all the time will say how do I know when we need help? And I'm like, well, it's when you can't do it on your own right, when you're keep having the same argument over and over and over again, when you feel so disconnected, when you're not able to work it out on your own, why not go to somebody who's trained to be able to help you, look at these dynamics from a neutral perspective and give you the skills to work through that? Yeah.

Speaker 1:

We'll be right back after this brief message. And we're back, let's dive right in.

Speaker 3:

In your book, monica. We're curious which of the 15 myths do you think couples find or believe most strongly, and why do you think it has that kind of staying power?

Speaker 2:

I mean, there's so many, it would be so hard to pick just one. But I really like the cliche that I hear all the time is don't sweat the small stuff. And again, I think it's very well-meaning advice. Right, you've got this brand new couple. They're so in love they can't imagine anything ever going wrong. And then you have this older, established couple that's like hey, don't sweat the small stuff. If he leaves the toilet seat up or don't bring it up, it's not a big deal, just push it down, don't sweat the small stuff.

Speaker 2:

And I cringe because I'm like where do you think the big stuff comes from? It comes from the small stuff. So do we want to deal with it as a seed or do we want to deal with it as a weed? So important, let's talk about the small stuff, but let's get some skills to be able to address the small stuff in productive ways, where your spouse isn't going to get defensive or feel criticized or you know what I'm saying. So let's learn the skills to deal with the small stuff, or sweat the small stuff when it's still small.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, that's why I knew, dave.

Speaker 3:

You know, before we had monica on, I knew that I was going to hear some of these myths, this damaging advice that I was guilty of. I knew I would hear it. I just knew it. I know what I mean when I say it. Right, but then to hear monica explain, it's like, oh well, yeah, of course you're right, that's not what I meant, so thank you for that perspective.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, this is very insightful for sure, monica. Monica, I'm curious how do you help couples, I guess, unlearn these deeply ingrained beliefs about marriage? What does that process look like in relationship coaching?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, this is such a great question. My husband and I were just talking about this. We were talking about a family that's very close to our hearts. We've known them for a long time and they're really, really struggling. And the reality is is that most people just live most of their lives out of their programming. Right, they do what they saw their parents do, they do what they learned how to do as children to kind of survive their environment. Right, they just are kind of on autopilot and they don't see a problem with it until somebody holds them accountable, until they realize the impact that it's having on either their spouse or their children or their family members, friends, until they lose their job, whatever.

Speaker 2:

It usually takes some sort of event to make somebody aware that they're just living out their programming. And so what happens is a lot of times I'll get one spouse who will come to me and they're upset with the relationship. They want to improve it. It's always like if only my spouse would and we could be happy. But again, where this is so important and where coaching is so important is we have to show the spouse and this sounds awful, but we have to make the spouse uncomfortable. So if you are uncomfortable in the relationship, usually nothing's changing because your make the spouse uncomfortable. So if you are uncomfortable in the relationship, usually nothing's changing because your partner is not uncomfortable. They don't understand even that there might be a problem. So it's working with the uncomfortable partner to A ask for what they want. But if the spouse isn't willing to give it to them, it's about making them uncomfortable enough to be willing to come and work on the relationship. So you can spark change in a relationship. Just one partner but you can't sustain that change over time without having both partners come to the table. So it's about really bringing both partners in and having them both look at their programming, their impact on each other, the dynamic or the dance with which they relate to one another, and then changing it. And so Dave brought up a great point is that earlier when we were talking, you don't realize what it is that you're doing. You don't realize what it is that you're doing, you're just reacting and you're not taking a beat, seeing your impact and then choosing your response. So that's a lot of what we do, especially in RLT.

Speaker 2:

The modality that I'm trained in is we look at the couple's dynamic or their dance, then we think about their trauma, what is, is their knee-jerk adaptive child response and what is that impact on the dynamic. And we can go back and find out. Typically, terry Real, my mentor, says show me the thumbprint and I'll tell you about the sum. And that's really like seeing what in their programming, what in their upbringing, set them up for those types of responses. And then when you show those to people and you show them the impact that it's having not only on them, their spouse, on their posterity, this reaction, this response that they're doing a lot of times, that will spark change really quickly. And I've seen people that are prone to aggression and abuse change it in an instant when they realize the impact that it's having on their partner and on their children. So it's really, really powerful.

Speaker 2:

And then once we deal with that adaptive child part of them, the part of them that won't access skills. So what happens a lot of time in traditional therapy is a couple will come in and they'll learn skills, but in the moment of triggering they're not going to use those skills because they're in that fight, flight or freeze response, fight, flight or flee or fawn response. Their only concern in that moment is protecting themselves. They don't want to access the skills they're not thinking about how can I make this relationship better? They're thinking about how can I protect myself right here. So once you show them that, once they get better at moving out of that initial response and into more that initial reaction and more into a thoughtful response, then you can start giving them really impactful skills that they can use. But they won't be able to access those skills until you deal with those adaptive child parts of them that only care about protecting themselves.

Speaker 1:

Really, yeah, wow, that's great. Thank you, and.

Speaker 3:

Terry Real's program. What does RLT stand for? Again, it's called Relational Life Therapy. Relational Life, that's the one. Okay, relational Life, relational life therapy isn't that so cool. Every time I talk to someone who has this, this great insight about years gone by, right, either childhood or something that we're, we're struck from, right, we have that the reaction um, I think, how gosh, I just don't spend enough time really giving um respect to past things that trigger, right, that upset us in the here and now. So I really I always appreciate that. Monica, thank you for that. What about some of those cultural, generational differences along these lines, these marriage myths that people tend to hold on to? And I realize we're all from multicultural, we're all in multicultural marriages, right? Even if we've married someone down the street.

Speaker 2:

We have our differences, our families, we do, and I think we expect a lot more from marriage than they did historically right, it's like before marriage was just about convenience. It was about getting the work of life kind of accomplished and, like I said, there weren't as many resources as there are now. But now we expect our spouse to be our best friend, our lifetime lover, somebody who challenges us, somebody who helps us grow, somebody we adventure with, somebody we grow old with. We want that intimacy to last forever. We want that intimacy to last forever.

Speaker 2:

There's so many things that we want from modern marriage, but there's also so many options. It's not about beautiful thing that you have two different perspectives and so there's two ways to look at it. Right, you can be like, oh, this person is so different than me, they always have a different opinion and now we have to figure out how to like meet in middle, which is compromise versus. Look how cool it is that we have more perspectives, more experience, more opinions to draw from and more ideas from which we can come up with something together that's better than either of us could have created on our own well, and monica, you have um a podcast called secrets of happily ever after, and now this new book, bad marriage advice 15 myths that are keeping you miserable.

Speaker 3:

Tell us where our listeners can find your book, your podcast. Learn more about the other great resources and information you offer, and you offer so much. Thank you for all that well.

Speaker 2:

Thank so much. The easiest way to find me, my podcast and the ways to work with me are at my website, which is my name, monicatanercom, and then you can get on the wait list for the book, or actually, by the time this airs, it will be out. You can find out all about the book and how to get your hands on a copy at badmarriageadvicecom.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's pretty great oh thank you.

Speaker 3:

We'll add that to our show notes, Dave right, and so people will have that easily accessible.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, that's right. And, Monica, before we wrap things up, you may recall, right, the questions we love to ask all of our guests, the first one being in your mind key. What is a key or the key to a stronger marriage connection?

Speaker 2:

I would say the key to a stronger marriage connection is consciousness and communication. It's really understanding yourself and your spouse and being able to communicate the things that you're learning about yourself and about each other. I think that creates a passionate, thriving, alive relationship for all the years that you're both alive is to just really stay open, stay curious about yourself and about your partner and be able to communicate those things to each other.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well said, well said. And this may be the second question, maybe a repeat of what you just mentioned, but is there a takeaway, a take-home message you want our listeners to remember from our discussion today, from your book one of the myths, or anything else?

Speaker 2:

from your book, one of the myths, or anything else. I think just believing that happily ever after is possible will open up lots of different avenues for you to get there. So I think the idea behind marriage is that it's a people growing machine. It's where you get to learn and unlearn behaviors that will make you better, and so to just embrace the good, the bad, the ugly and everything in between, just knowing that you can create an intimate, passionate forever after marriage. But the first step is to believe that it's possible.

Speaker 1:

Mm-hmm yeah.

Speaker 2:

Wow, Liz what about you, don't compromise.

Speaker 3:

Don't compromise. That is my takeaway, dave Don't compromise. I love this whole element of hope, monica, that you bring to the table you did it last time and bring it again today about the collaboration, the cooperation and being curious. Never stop being curious, about self and about partner, I think that's just so beautiful. And the possibilities that you can create, and the possibilities are really endless. Yes, yeah, thank you for that message, dave. What's your greatest takeaway, my friend, from our interview today with Monica Tanner?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love this discussion, can't wait to get a hold of the book. I've loved this discussion, can't wait to get a hold of the book. I'm a big fan. Yeah, just getting all the resources we can to improve our marriages, our lives. I think it probably goes back to just getting out of these learned habits, especially early on.

Speaker 1:

I know some of our listeners are in the first few years of marriage. Few years of marriage, even if you're not being consciously aware, like pausing and say, okay, what are kind of my. When someone says something, my spouse or partner says something, I tend to react or get very defensive inside. Instead of that pause, yeah, I get curious. Instead of reacting, I choose a response that I learned through these habits whether we grew up with that way and our parents are nuclear reactors. That's what we've seen modeled. We can do things differently. It does take work.

Speaker 1:

And probably another takeaway is I love what you said about newlyweds Early on, find a coach, a counselor, someone you can turn to. I think the walls are coming down, the stigma walls of oh, therapists are only if you're at the very end and you're a last-ditch effort, but man help along the entire way. There's mentors and coaches and sports and everything else. I'm a big fan of finding someone that you can turn to in times of need, when you need help. So great reminders, great information, great nuggets, things to think about that I haven't thought about, monica. So thanks again. Thanks for making time to come on and share with us today.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, my pleasure Anytime.

Speaker 1:

Well, friends, that does it for us. We will see you next time on the Stronger Marriage Connection podcast.

Speaker 3:

That's right, and remember it's the small things that create a stronger marriage connection. Take good care of you and each other. See you soon.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us a favor and take a second to subscribe to our podcast and the Utah Marriage Commission YouTube channel at Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the show. Be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at Stronger Marriage Life, and Facebook at Stronger Marriage, so be sure to share with us which topics you loved or which guests we should have on the show. Next, if you want even more resources to improve your marriage or relationship connection, visit StrongerMarriageorg, where you'll find free workshops, e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys and more. Each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, rex Polanis, and the team at Utah State University and you, our audience. You make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.