Stronger Marriage Connection
It's often said that marriage takes work. The Stronger Marriage Connection podcast wants to help because a happy marriage is worth the effort. USU Family Life Professor Dr. Dave Schramm and Clinical Psychologist Dr. Liz Hale talk with experts about the principles and practices that will enhance your commitment, compassion, and emotional connection.
More than ever before, marriages face obstacles, from the busyness of work and daily hassles to disagreements and digital distractions. It's no wonder couples sometimes drift apart, growing resentful, lonely, and isolated.
The Utah Marriage Commission invites you to listen and discover new ways to strengthen and protect your marriage connection today!
Stronger Marriage Connection
Relational Life Therapy | Kristy Gaisford | #149
We explore how Relational Life Therapy helps couples move from harshness to loving firmness, from accuracy wars to curiosity, and from quiet withdrawal to active repair. Kristy Gaisford shares personal lessons, the five dysfunctional patterns, and practical tools for daily change.
• the five dysfunctional patterns: being right, controlling, unbridled self-expression, retaliation, withdrawal
• start with self: sturdiness, humility, owning impact
• customer-service rule: turn-taking and sequencing complaints
• the feedback wheel: story, feeling, request, future
• loving firmness over harshness in tough talks
• the adaptive child versus wise adult self
• relationship reckoning: grieving the ideal and choosing the real
• harmony, disharmony, repair as the normal cycle
• questions that open repair and end defensiveness
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Dr. Dave Schramm:
Dr. Liz Hale:
Have you ever felt stuck in the same old patterns in your marriage, struggling to communicate what you feel deep inside? Harshness, frustration, resentment, or just feeling emotionally distant? On today's episode, Dr. Liz and I welcome Christy Gazeford to the show, and she shares all kinds of helpful and practical tips from relational life therapy, things you can start doing today to improve your relationship connection, starting with yourself. Christy Gazeford has a master's in social work from Columbia University. She has a private practice in Salt Lake City and she specializes in relationships. She runs relationship boot camps in Salt Lake City and New York City. She's passionate about relationships, the anagram, learning, and being outdoors. We hope you enjoy the show.
SPEAKER_01:Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection. I'm Dr. Liz Hale, the psychologist, along with Dr. Dave Schram, the professor and my esteemed colleague. Together, we have dedicated our life's work to bringing you the best we can find in valid marital research, along with a few tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. Well, Dave, finally I have seen the light, right? I don't know what took me so long, but I have loved adding the tool of relational life therapy, RLT for short, to my practice, especially with the couples who are on the brink of divorce. And this is not a new name to you, right, Dave? You've heard of Terry Real.
SPEAKER_05:Absolutely, yes.
SPEAKER_01:Oh gosh. Well, wish I started it earlier, but I'm here now. Well, I'm thrilled that we have this opportunity, you and me, to sit down with Utah's own Christy Gazeford, a licensed marriage therapist and expert in RLT. What I love most about this model is its bold honesty with couples, individuals. It's deeply compassionate and the powerful outcomes for couples. Well, Christy has been transforming relationships through this work, and we're blessed to dive into her personal and her professional journey. So, Christy, welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. What a treat this will be. Can we please begin with a little of your own personal marriage journey and what drew you to relational life therapy? Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Um, well, you hear that we often teach what we needed to learn the most. So my personal journey is I was uh really struggling in my marriage and I didn't know what to do. And I'd read tons of books and nothing seemed to help. And I got this email that said, this man named Terry Real was coming to the University of Minnesota to talk about how to have the new rules of marriage, how to have a better marriage. And so I thought, okay, I should go. I'm looking for help. So I went to hear him speak. And I remember just feeling like he was talking to me directly and just furiously taking notes all day. And there's two things that he said that really changed my life. And the first one was, you don't have a right to misbehave, no matter what anyone else is doing to you. And that really rocked me because I had been misbehaving really badly. And I had been justifying it. Like, what am I supposed to do? Just not do anything when my husband's acting like this, or am I just supposed to take it and not defend myself? And but the problem is I really didn't like who I was becoming, and and I really didn't, I really didn't like myself when I acted that way. And so that day I decided to stop doing that. And um the next thing he said was, if you don't dare to rock the boat, nothing will ever change. And he said, Many women that are pleasers that continue to stay in unhealthy relationships end up getting physically ill from taking on the stress, and then they lose their life or their relationship anyway. So um that's kind of my introduction. And so I did both of those things. I stopped reacting poorly and I and I did rock the boat, and I did get divorced. Um and but that was that was the right thing for me after trying and trying and trying. Um, but then I started training with Terry and um figured if it changed my life and then I could it would help me in my in my career to help other people as well. So I got certified in relational light therapy and I got remarried. And we, my husband and I use these skills every day. And when we don't, we look as bad as everybody else. But when we do, it really helps.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I think that's a beautiful introduction to RLT. I've I've just been so impressed with it. It's really made a difference in my own practice already, Christy, and I'm pretty new with it. Uh, it's I find it really powerful. I don't know. Dave, you already knew about it. You were way ahead of me.
SPEAKER_05:No, I'm I'm anxious to learn more about this uh today, Christy. You say that the the first relationship to work on is the one you have with yourself. And I really like that. We say you know quite a bit here on the podcast, you know, a happy, healthy we starts with a happy, healthy me. Uh, what's your take on that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think it's it's essential to have a good relationship with yourself because if you don't, it's I like to think of it as being sturdy, being sturdy enough to handle difficult feedback, being sturdy enough to be able to say, this is hard, but I can see my partner. You know, if you're if you have an unhealthy self-esteem, you're gonna be way too dependent on your partner to make you feel good, and that doesn't lead to a good relationship, or you're not gonna be able to handle closeness and you're gonna withdraw and just not be able to handle intimacy. So it really, it really is essential that we can be kind enough and and be sturdy enough in our own self that we can interact with others in a healthy way.
SPEAKER_01:I really love that. Be kind and sturdy, internally and externally. Yes. I, you know, there's uh you talk a lot about the five dysfunctional patterns in RLT. Could we do a quick rundown of them, please? Though where do you start to help people unravel? What areas? Yeah, there the first is being right.
SPEAKER_00:So just the whole, yes, the whole objectivity battles, you know. I'm you said that, no, you didn't. You said this, no, I didn't. But you know, the things where you could just go around and around. And if there's one thing I've learned doing years of couples therapy is that there is no objective reality. We see things so differently that you could argue for the rest of your life and not agree on what happened because you saw things or experienced them differently. So that's the first the first one. The second one is controlling your partner, and that can be direct control or indirect control through manipulation. But people, it's it's an illusion that you if if you get people to do what you wanted them to, it always comes with resentment. So controlling your partner. The third is unbridled self-expression, just saying things that are not helpful. You know, that could be anywhere from saying opinions that are hurtful, like I'm just not as attracted to you as I used to be, or or just like screaming and yelling and name-calling and swearing and all of those things, or just bringing up things that happened five, 10, 15 years ago and just completely rehashing. And it's anything that is not productive, it's just kind of hurting your partner. Is that where harshness comes in? That line. Yeah, there's nothing harshness does that loving firmness can't do better. Right. It's there's no there's no room for harshness in a relationship, it only harms. And then the fourth is retaliation. And you know, retaliation can be huge. And those stories make the news, you know, like the man that gets broken up with and burns down his girlfriend's house. Like I'm I'm saying this facetiously, but it does happen, right? But it can also be very subtle, like a withdrawal of attention or a like, I'm not gonna be as warm to you because I don't think you're being very warm to me. And it's like we match each other's energy and until we continue to both withdraw. That's a form of retaliation. And then the last one is withdrawal, which is just checking out of the relationship. I'm just not even gonna really be here. I might be sitting here, but I'm not really here.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Oi, those are powerful. Thank you. Thank you for running down those. So we've got um being right, right? Being controlling, unbridled self-expression, retaliation, and withdrawal. Powerful. Thank you for explaining those.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. It I love that you break those down like that because sometimes we hear broad words like communication or you know, conflict or something. But actually going down into those and then giving examples, it's like, oh yeah, I can relate, or I've seen that, or man, yeah, I need to look in the mirror and like, oh, I can see how hard to look in the mirror, Dave, sometimes.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, sure is from here if you're sitting in my seat.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, that's right. Christy, you say that it's it's actually good to, let's say, quote unquote, rock the boat a little bit. So you want couples to lean in and and deal with each other, right? Does so does this mean that too often we disengage in a way that's that's harmful to the relationship?
SPEAKER_00:Yes. It's like um people try a few times to address something difficult and they'll get a big defensive reaction. And so they start to give up. Like I don't I don't know how to bring this up because every time I do, my partner gets upset. So I guess I can't talk about it anymore. And then then the people just start to slowly withdraw and avoid tough conversations, and then it can turn into a situation where the couple just feels like roommates. Like we're not fighting, but we're we're not close, and we're both keeping a safe distance so that we don't start fights, but it's nothing's being addressed, and it's like the marriage is slowly dying, where but it looks okay on the surface.
SPEAKER_05:I even think Christine, man, you nailed it. I feel like um just again, I'm not a therapist, just an observer. But more people more relationships kind of uh end by that slow leak in the air rather than a blowout tire type of a thing. Is that me? And it sounds like that this is what you're talking about. It's I I'm not gonna risk it anymore. You know, it's just not worthwhile. I'm not gonna bring that up. I'm not gonna share because it blows up or it's a yeah, it's uh it's it is, it's risky uh safety putting up that wall. I'm not even gonna bring this up because it yeah, every time it ends in a in an ar he winner fight. So I may as well not bring it up. And that and in my mind it makes sense. Yeah, I'm not gonna I'm just gonna pull back. I'm not gonna bring that up anymore. But yeah, you say that that it's that's a pattern that, yeah, you'll slowly just kind of drift apart.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I actually get a lot more worried when when I see a couple and that it just feels like there's no energy in the relationship than when somebody's fighting a lot, because at least the fighters are still passionate enough that they care. And the ones where they've kind of just lost the energy, it's almost like they've they've given up.
SPEAKER_01:Oh boy. Well, I I also love this next aspect of RLT relational life therapy of who's right, who's wrong, and who cares, right? It's but it's not always easy to let go of accuracy, is it? And yet you say it's so important to do so. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Um, is kind of what I started saying before, but it it truly is people have such different lenses that they see the world through. I mean, if you think about our childhoods were different, our family of origins were different, our personalities are different, our life experience, so many things are different. And so when we start to argue about who's right or wrong, it it's it's never gonna get us anywhere. So the the thing to break it is curiosity. Okay, I don't see it that way, but it's so interesting that my partner does. I wonder, I wonder how how my partner does see this. I'm gonna be very curious. Like, help me understand how you see the situation. Help me understand how that makes you feel. And if I can understand, then I can I can reach through to my partner, go, okay, now if I saw it that way, I would feel that way too. I can I can see that. Do you have a moment to let me under explain to you how I see it? And can we come to an understanding of each other's differences rather than who's right or wrong? Because there is no right or wrong. It's just different.
SPEAKER_05:I love that. The understanding, the compassion of trying to put yourself in their shoes. Yeah, it's not a right or wrong, but it's like, oh, I can see why you do the things that you do or think the way that you think, because now I can I can understand it.
SPEAKER_01:Oh okay. Like no wonder, no wonder you feel that way.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes, it is. And it's nice to remember that people do what people do makes sense to them. So I I often tell my clients, assume good intent and then ask from that place. I assume you did this with good intention. So can you help me understand the way you saw it?
SPEAKER_02:Yep. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Because I don't see it that way, but I'll leave that one up, right? Right.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_04:Um we'll be right back after this brief minutes.
SPEAKER_03:And we're back. Let's dive right in.
SPEAKER_05:And that taking turns with expressing feelings is similar to coming up to the customer service window. Okay, so this has me really intrigued. Tell me more.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, this is something Terry, Terry says. He said, if going, it's like going to a customer service window and saying, hey, this toaster I brought, I bought broke. And the person at the counter saying, Oh yeah, well, my microwave broke. And then you're just sitting there going, well, now what? We both have problems and we both have complaints, and no one's gonna be heard. So the the rule of the relationship therapy really is the person that comes to you with a problem or an issue, they're in the speaker role. And it's your job as their partner to be the listener. You're there to help resolve the concern that they brought to you. That's not the time for you to say, oh, it's time for concerns. Let me go get all of the ones I've stored up, which I used to do, and it doesn't work, I can tell you that. So um it has to be different roles and it has to be at different times. So many, I mean, I see this every day. Somebody comes with a with a complaint, hey, it really hurt my feelings when you did this. And the very first sentence out of their partner's mouth is, well, you did this, or well, what about last time when you did it? And it's like the person's never heard, and then you can see what happens, right? It just goes on and on. So if you can really remember that it's two different roles, and it and you if you have a complaint, you have to bring it up. You can't piggyback on your partner's complaint.
SPEAKER_01:I really I do. I can I can imagine that customer service hat, right? I just I try to think about okay, I'm gonna go first or I'm gonna be the listener. I'm gonna try to fix this broken microwave without talking about my broken toaster. I think I thought that was just brilliant. I've even had my clients wear a hat, like take turns wearing the hat. I that's what I that's what I envision is a great little hat. Customer service. How can I help you? Oh here, here's a bold statement that we really need some help with. I think it's just so cool. But um, here it goes, Dave. Learn to work with the partner you're with instead of the one you deserve. Let's explain that, Christine. Oh, you're the one to do this explaining to me.
SPEAKER_00:Well, there is a certain there, there's a certain amount of grief that comes with intimacy. And what I mean by that is that at some level, we all long for the divine. We long for this partner who will completely complete us, who will um who will satisfy all of our needs, who will say all of the right things and comfort and heal us. There's a part of us from childhood that longs to find this person, right? And what we get is a willfully limited human being. And the difference between what we long for and what we get is called grief. And learning, knowing that that's something that will come in any relationship because no one's perfect, and being able to grieve that is maturity. And one thing that Terry teaches, I think is one of his most powerful teachings, is the relationship reckoning. And what that is, is when you have asked and asked for something, and you're it's very clear that even though I've asked for this over and over, it's clear at this point that I'm not gonna get it. You need to ask yourself, am I getting enough from this person to make it worth my while to grieve what I'm not gonna get? And if the answer is yes, then you you do the work of grieving that and you let it go. And then you focus on all the reasons you chose to stay, and you realize that you're not a victim of the relationship you chose to stay for these reasons. If if you don't do that, you can carry that res you can stay anyway, but carry that resentment with you throughout your relationship. So I think that's really powerful.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. And so would you uh most couples you work with are have to do a relationship relationship reckoning?
SPEAKER_00:Um, I I believe we all have to do it at some level. You know, am I gonna continue to be upset and resentful that my partner's just not giving me this thing? I mean, I don't know everyone who anyone who got everything that they dreamed of. And at some point, you do have to let that go and say, yeah, but I got this and this and this, and it's worth it for me. And if it's not, that's when you have to make another really difficult choice. You know, I know it isn't worth it for me. So what do I do now? Because I'm not gonna be a victim of my relationship.
SPEAKER_01:So learning isn't that cool, Dave?
SPEAKER_05:That's a powerful excerpt. I never really thought about it sitting down and actually going through that, kind of working through that, because I I think that's probably pretty normal for for all of us to think like, oh, I wish they were a little less like this, or more like this person, or see this or that, and kind of harbor that for yeah, years instead of being like, okay, they're not like that. But this is these are the qualities. I'm gonna focus on the 80% or whatever it is that I truly love and admire and and work through or let go of that 20% and quit trying to make them into that, uh but really accept and love them for who you did marry, not who you thought you married.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes, and think how much stronger your relationship would be if you could do that. It's pretty powerful.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, really cool.
SPEAKER_01:Ah, I like that so much. Um wow. You know, so many of us, I think, still think that if we're in conflict, there must be something wrong, or I married the wrong person. But I I love this of RLT that we're constant in constant flux of harmony, disharmony, and repair. That's really the good news, isn't it, Christine?
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Yes, it is. Um, we're if you're in in disrepair at times, you're normal. But that is the state of relationships, and and it starts when we're born. Our first relationship with our mother is a constant state of harmony, disharmony, and repair, right? The baby the baby cries and the mother comes. Um, so when we can accept that that's just part of being in a relationship, it's really powerful because we can stop catastrophizing when things are in disrepair and making it worse because it's easy to go, oh, here we go again. I knew it. I knew they were like this or doing it again, and just kind of catastrophize until we go off the rails. Um, I think the biggest problem I see is that none of us really learned how to have a healthy repair. So there's a lot of couples that have harmony, disharmony, shove it under the rug after a little while. Harmony, disharmony, shove, you know, and the the bigger issues are are not actually repaired. But yeah, it's normal in every relationship.
SPEAKER_01:The repair is the most crucial part of that pattern.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Yeah, it does. It feels like that's almost become a theme, right, Liz. We've talked with another another guest recently about the importance of a repair and how that goes because we all need to do it and we need to do it better because we can think we're doing it better, but it's almost almost selfishly, right? Or making more of a mess or creating more of a mess. And then we complain about the mess because we provoke this person to say or do these things.
SPEAKER_01:Um Christy, do you mind if we jump into what is some of the repair with RLT, Christy?
SPEAKER_00:Um well, one of the most powerful tools that we teach is the feedback wheel, and uh and what that looks like is this. Um when you I'll do an easy one. When you uh showed up late, when you came home at 6 30 and you told me you'd be home at 5 45, the story I told myself, or what I made up about it, is that you are disrespectful of my time and that you think your time is more important than mine, and I made up that you're selfish. And that makes me feel sad and frustrated and kind of angry to be honest. Um in the future, I would ask that if you're gonna be late, that you text me and let me know, so that I'm not sitting around in limbo for 45 minutes. Is that something you feel like you could do? And the reason this it's powerful is because you you're you're telling your partner your story. You're not saying it's true. You're owning that this is the meaning I gave it, this is how I felt, and you're ending with a chance for your partner to get out of it. It's a future request. It's not getting stuck in the past in something they can't change. You're always late, you always do this to me, you you're never on time. You didn't, you know, then the partner's like, oh, I there's nothing I can do. Um, but that's one way that can be used in many different scenarios. Love that.
SPEAKER_01:Feedback wheel. And then isn't there a statement? I love that statement of what like maybe with the customer service hat, like what what can I do to make this better for you? Right? If I am the listener, is that do I understand that right? Yes, I can do it. Yes, yes. What can I do right now that would help you feel better? What can I do right now that would help you feel better? I love that too. What can I do right now that would help you feel better? Oh, cool.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, just the way that we slow down and instead of that that meanness or the that harshness, you brought that harshness um a few minutes ago. I I really feel like, yeah, some of that I once heard, you know, the difference between a happy now and happy marriage is leaving a few things left unsaid each day. You know, just like don't don't say those those mean things that that stir that that pot again. Um I I love this common RLT phrase, Chris, you said harshness does nothing that loving firmness doesn't do better. Ah, I love it. What what's your take on that?
SPEAKER_00:I think you can be very firm, but uh in a very loving way. Like this I'm telling you right now, I'm really upset and this doesn't work for me. And I'm I'm I'm asking that you change because if you don't change, I'm gonna continue to be hurt by this and I mean it. And I don't think we are we're taught how to say firm things in a loving way, and so usually by the time we're we're at the breaking point, we we say them in a very angry way. Or um, like I didn't realize until I found RLT that you can say things without emoting them. You can tell someone you're angry without emoting anger, which really turns people off, right? And I really didn't even know that. I thought if you were angry by that point you were gonna show that you were angry, you know? But you can say really firm things in a very loving way. I love you and I'm really unhappy. And I need I need to I need to see some change in this area.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, firmness with in a loving way, with kindness. Uh yeah, that's powerful. Man. This is great. Let's go for a uh Liz, you have three more hours so we can just keep talking about it. I know, I know it.
SPEAKER_01:I do. I love this so much. I really do. This is it makes some sense, right? And I don't know if anything is really too new, but yeah, I don't know how he's just been able to kind of I don't know, narrow it down, really, really give some strong sentiments, and he's not afraid to tell individuals the truth either. Of like, do you want the good news or the bad news? Yeah, right. The good news is I really love, I think you're a good man. Bad news is you're wrong. You're wrong. Yeah, you're you're hurting a lot of people. You're hurting a lot of people.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:How does that does that go very well, Christy, when you're doing it with an actual couple? You've had to, I'm I'm sure, call people out.
SPEAKER_00:It actually does work really well as long as they can tell that you really do love them and you really are rooting for them. And you really are separating them from their bad behavior. Like, I know this isn't who you really are at your core, but there is a part of you, this adaptive child, that is causing a lot of pain. And so you're you're separating them from this part of them because it isn't all of them, there is a really good part of them. But when their adaptive child takes over, it's not a great part of them. And it does cause harm in the relationship. But if you can start helping them see the difference and creating this allergy to the bad behavior and integrating it, yeah. Um, they can start to change because they don't want to be like that anymore.
SPEAKER_04:We'll be right back after this brief message.
SPEAKER_03:And we're back. Let's dive right in.
SPEAKER_01:Adaptive child is going to be a new term to our audience. Do you do you mind just expressing what that is a little bit? How adaptive children become maladaptive adults.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, it is a big part of RLT. And it's the adaptive child is the part of us that was hurt in childhood in many different ways, and we all have one. And it's the part of us that had to adapt in childhood to survive. So maybe we had to become very pleasing and go along to get along so we don't rock the boat, or maybe we had to really stand up for ourselves and be kind of aggressive because nobody respected our boundaries. Or there's many ways, but that part of us that that adapted in childhood is maladaptive in our adult relationships. It never is helpful to be the child that's so pleasing that your partner doesn't even know what you want or who you are, and you start getting walked over and then resentful. It doesn't help to be super harsh and controlling or dominating in an adult relationship. So it's learning to see your own dysfunction and where it's coming out in the relationship and taming that part of you. Oh, I see you. I know you want to come out and take control right now, but I it's okay, I got it. This wise part of me, I'm gonna take control. You can you can take a seat.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, to the um adaptive child. So Okay, I got that. She can just yeah, stand behind me or that's pretty cool. I used to kind of, I don't know, I I would used to poo-poo if you don't mind. I can't think of another word for that um inner child work, you know, that was so popular back in the day with Bradshaw. I just didn't really understand it or get it. But the the more I work with couples, especially those that are really stuck, where they are at that crossroads, we we stay or we go. Um I I get it. I really I need I needed more tools to help them get unstuck. That's where LLT has really been a gift. Yeah. I agree. It's very powerful.
SPEAKER_05:Christy, it's a tradition here on our show, Stronger Marriage Connection, um, that we love to ask a couple of questions. The following question: what do you believe is the key to a stronger marriage connection?
SPEAKER_00:So I'm gonna tell a very quick story. There was a man who'd been married like 60 years, and somebody asked him, What's the key to a happy marriage? And he said, It's really easy. I just get up every day and I look in the mirror and I say to myself, You're no prize either. And I I do think that that is the key on some level, because I think it takes humility and curiosity and the ability to really know yourself and the good and the bad. And it's hard to be able to take negative feedback, but as soon as you can learn to say, you're right, I can be like that, and I did do that, and I'm really sorry. You you can stop any fight. Like as long as soon as your partner admits what they did, it's like now I can move on. Like I can let this go now because you get it. Like so many of the fights are just wasted energy defending our bad behavior. But if if you can if you can see your bad behavior and it and own it and work on it and mean it, I I think you can you can repair anything.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. When a partner can just say, Oh gosh, you're right. I you're right, I do that. It's kind of like the dark clouds part and the sun comes through, and it's like, oh thank God. I don't have to keep hitting him over the head with it. He gets it or hitting her over the head with it. Yeah, that's the kind of gift we can give our partners in return. You have some great resources for our podcast, dear Christy. And where can our listeners, viewers go to discover more about you and the relationship boot camp that's coming up the end of September? We'll add that to our show notes for easy access.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, uh, my website is relationallifecounseling.com. So you can find me there in my yeah, I'm doing a boot camp the end of September for couples using all of these relational life therapy tools. It was it was designed by Terry Real and it's it's really powerful. Two days.
SPEAKER_01:Two-day boot camp, gosh. And is there something powerful being with other couples? Because part of me is cry about that.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's so powerful because it takes away the shame. You're just sitting in this room with strangers, and after it only takes a few minutes to realize, oh, we all do these things. We all experience these things. It's not just us because I think way too often we're so alone in our own relationship because you've you can't go talk about it to people. You can't, you feel disloyal, like saying bad things about your own partner. And so you're kind of like suffering in silence and feeling like the only one. But in in a boot camp, you just start realizing it's okay that I'm flawed, because everyone else in the room is too, and everyone else in the world is, and we didn't learn better, we didn't, we don't know better, but but now that we can learn, we can change and we can do better, and also you can see like beauty and and the beauty in other flawed human beings, and it helps you see the beauty in yourself and the flaws, but it's like it's all okay. There's no shame in this. It's like let's just figure it out so we can be happier.
SPEAKER_01:It's beautiful.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, yeah, this has been super helpful. I've learned a lot, um, Christy. Hey, before we let you go, we like to end with our what we call a takeaway of the day. Is there a take-home message you want our listeners to remember from our discussion?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I would say um to remember, the only person we can really change is ourselves. So it's so tempting to learn about new tools and think, I wish my partner would do this. You know, I I hope he heard that or something. But if we can start with ourselves, and it's it's such a skill to be able to receive difficult feedback. But if you could ask your partner, what is it like to be with me? What are the good things and what is the most challenging thing about being my partner?
SPEAKER_01:That's a great question, isn't it? It takes a lot of courage to ask that and to hear the answer and to speak the answers. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So say that again. Tell say that again. What is it like to be my partner? What are the good things and what are the hardest parts about being with me? And it does take a lot of courage, but if you can ask that and sit with the response and really kind of metabolize it and go, okay. Because we cannot change what we can't see. And part of our growth path has to be seeing all of ourselves, the good and the bad. If we can't see it, we're just gonna keep repeating it.
SPEAKER_02:Wow.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so much uh to take away. Liz, what are you taking away from our discussion with Christie?
SPEAKER_01:Wow. Well, you know, I this is part of RLT, but it was a little bit more of a story, but just the mirror work that you're suggesting, right? The the the man, the woman in the mirror, and uh making peace there, and not being harsh with that person either any more than we don't want to be harsh with our partner. And so that that quote of you're no prize either. We are just all mere mortals. Mm-hmm. And what about you, Dave? What's the golden nugget that's gonna stay with you long after our visit with Christy Gazeberg?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, you know, it's maybe this whole idea of this humility versus harshness, you know, this humility to to look inside, to let some of those things go that we wish our partner was more of or less of. And then, yeah, and then say, hey, yeah, I'm not I'm not a jay. What's the hardest part of living with me? Uh I I can't imagine, but honestly, just asking that question, not not in a self-beat myself up way, right? But in a in an honest um look in the mirror and just pause and reflect and say, okay, yeah, I I do have my it's hard to see our own flaws, quirks, you know, biases, all of those, those things that we're often blind to. Um but yeah, some of that re that reflection, that mirror work is critical, but it's man, it starts with starts with humility. I love it.
SPEAKER_02:Nice.
SPEAKER_05:Christy, this has been um this has been awesome. I wouldn't mind another round two someday of having you come back on and uh and uh and sharing more yeah wisdom and uh man some of these nuggets that you've been you've been sharing today. So thank you so much sincerely for for coming on and sharing so much.
SPEAKER_01:Well, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it. We do too.
SPEAKER_05:All right, friends, that does it for us. We're so glad that you're here and that you're listening. We hope it's helpful. We'll see you next time another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection.
SPEAKER_01:And remember, it's the small and simple things that create a stronger marriage connection. Take care now.
SPEAKER_05:Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us a favor and take a second to subscribe to our podcast and the Utah Marriage Commission YouTube channel at Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the show. Be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment, and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at StrongerMarriageLive and Facebook at Stronger Marriage. So be sure to share with us which topics you loved, which guests we should have on the show next. If you want even more resources to improve your marriage or relationship connection, visit strongermarriage.org where you'll find free workshops, e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys, and more. Each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, Rex Polanas, and the team at Utah State University, and you, our audience. You make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions, and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.