Stronger Marriage Connection

How To Have Healthy Money Conversations | Dee Zimmerman | #152

• Utah Marriage Comission • Season 4 • Episode 152

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We explore why money triggers big feelings, how to spot the Four Horsemen in finance talks, and how to turn weekly check-ins into a simple habit. Money coach Dee Zimmerman shares tools for gentle startups, healthy boundaries, and practical next steps.

• different money histories shaping expectations
• money as emotional language, not just numbers
• Four Horsemen applied to money conversations
• antidotes: gentle startup, taking responsibility, repair
• permission to pause with a promise to resume
• weekly money rhythms with simple prompts
• inviting a reluctant partner with humility and tools
• healthy boundaries with self, partner, and outside world
• money styles quiz: Sidesteppers, Sparrers, Circlers, Builders
• building wealth together with clarity and consistency

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Dr. Liz Hale:

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SPEAKER_01:

One of the biggest challenges for couples today is managing money and finances. On today's episode, Dr. Liz and I welcome D. Zimmerman to the show, and we discuss how to have better money conversations. From healthy money boundaries to communication patterns, and even understanding where strong emotions about money stem from, you'll learn practical tips and tricks to help you improve your relationship when it comes to finances. D. Zimmerman is a money coach and strategist for couples and the creator of Wealth Together, a year-long group coaching program that helps couples stop fighting about money and start building a financial future they're both excited about. She combines practical financial education with Gottman's Four Horseman Framework for Healthy Communication, helping couples strengthen both their finances and their relationship. Before becoming a coach, Dee spent years in ministry shaping her heart for helping people grow in connection and purpose. She also contributed to the book Rethink Everything You Know About Financial Literacy for Teens. Outside of coaching, Dee loves tennis, traveling, and time with her husband, family, and friends. And she's a former singer with a master's in voice and opera. We hope you enjoy the show. Hey friends, welcome to another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection Podcast. I'm Dr. Dave here at US Toss State University, alongside Dr. Liz Hale, our licensed clinical psychologist, our therapist. We are aiming to bring you the very best we have in research and resources, along with a few tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. All right, Liz, today we're tackling one of the biggest, toughest topics for couples. At least the research suggests that this is one of the biggest challenges for couples, whether you're married for four weeks or 40 years, and that is money.

SPEAKER_02:

Money, money, money. Oh, yes. Yep. I say it is the toughest. The toughest. Wow.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh man, it can be it can be a really complicated topic. But our guest today is here to discuss this important, this critical topic for couples, the one and only money coach, Dee Zimmerman. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_04:

Thank you so much. You're right. It's a very interesting topic and it's an important one. So I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, we're excited to dive in. Dee, before we we dive in too deep into the money discussion, can you tell us a little bit about your background, your interest in money topics? Why, why do you do what you do with related to money?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, I mean, money sounds like uh on face value kind of boring, but it is not. It is so interesting and it's so dynamic, right? And if it is such a struggle in marriages and conversations, communication, there's a lot to it. And it is very interesting. Um, you know, I grew up um loving organization, loving numbers and organization, bringing order out of chaos. But at the same time, I'm a pretty um emotional person, like the softer side of things. Emotional intelligence is so interesting to me. Um, faith issues, growing character, and a healthy mindset. And so putting those two together, I realized is my sweet spot. Um there's more to it than that, though. Um, I did grow up in a family where communication was bad. Um silence was modeled for me. So I saw that play out in my parents' relationship. And although their retirement started fairly well financially, those communication problems I think continued and it didn't end very well. And there was also bad advice that they trusted or um that led them astray. And so just that just the inability to communicate about money and the misalignment um didn't play out very well. And and so, you know, I just always wanted to, in my marriage uh around money and everything, I wanted to have good communication with my husband. It's been a struggle, of course it is, it is for everyone. Um, but it was important that we would always be on the same page, that we be would be aligned. Um, and so um that was just a commitment of mine. And um so then as life evolved, because I haven't been coaching all my life in this area, um, I was uh, in fact, in ministry work for about 15 years, and I moved out of that and wanted to have more control over what I was doing, tap into this kind of sweet spot and be more creative. Um, but at the same time be able to serve people, you know, serve people while having that fun business and that creativity and that purpose behind it. And then working with couples has evolved because um over the years of coaching, about half of the people that I coached were couples. And about half were singles, some single men, a lot of single women. Um, but I loved the particular challenge of couples, the dynamic of that, of that relationship and communicating with money. And I knew that I had tapped into something that was particularly interesting, more challenging, but interesting to me. And there's something about supporting the men too, um, where they may not feel that they have as many resources, someone that can come in and work with both of them as a couple on the emotional side and on the communication side. And sometimes those men are carrying such big burdens. And so, and the women are too, but there's there's there's some unique burdens that the men have as well. And so um, yeah, I just kind of put all of that together and have sort of refined, you know, my work and the way to work with couples and in their communication about money. That's sort of how it evolved. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Yeah. That's that's beautiful. You know, many couples who love each other deeply struggle still to talk about money without tension. My husband gets a the paperless report on this main Visa card we use, right? We've agreed to use one card. We get the most bang for our buck, supposedly. I don't really know. I let him take care of that. But, you know, just hearing him say, okay, so so who is this company? Like he'll read down the list, right, of charges. And usually he doesn't have the best timing, but I can just feel the tension. I can just feel the tension growing. For one, I'm trying to rack my brain. It's like, that sounds kind of familiar, but what was that? What did I order? Usually it has to do with with a toner or cleanser or moisturizer, right? Some kind of beautifier. Trying to, trying to. Um, anyway, what why do you think money creates so much conflict in our relationships, Dee?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, we grew up. I mean, I think one of the big reasons is that we we have different money histories. Yeah. I mean, Dave, how you grew up around money, what was modeled for you, what was spoken, what you experienced is different than I'm sure your wives. I mean, it's surprising if it's the same. And so we come in with, but we don't think of that so much in the context of money. We seem to be surprised. Why don't we look at things the same way? You know, why don't why don't you just look at things the way I do? And oftentimes I think that people, when they're coming into coaching, they're thinking, you know, if only my partner would change. And so I'll go into coaching, and then that coach will get my partner to change. And no, what we need is just more understanding of where one another is coming from. And and then that can grow the compassion, the understanding, and and and help. So that's one of the um big reasons, I think. But also um we didn't get much education, did we? Most of us.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. About you or marriage or any of it, right? Any of it. You're right. I was listening to your episode with Dr. uh Jeremy Bowden. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you know, things that surprise us, are we marriage ready? Are we money ready? Um so, you know, without that education, we sort of assume that, you know, it just sort of falls in place. Um, but it doesn't. And especially when you're coming at it from two different um ways. And we think that money is just numbers. It's not, it's emotions. It's it's it's money is emotional because it touches everything. And what you tell me, your message, what my husband tells me about money, is a language to me. Like how he said it means something to me. It means something to me about how he loves me. And we just can't get around that. There it money is a language, and I think we just kind of get blindsided by that and don't realize that it really is that weighted.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I love what you're saying here. It because you're saying it's not about money, it's about how you feel about money. It's the emotions, the experience, and what money means to each individual. And that differs on education, background, a host of factors. Do you use the the wealth talk guide inspired by Gottman's Four Horsemen? I think a lot of our listeners have heard or maybe familiar with the four horsemen. Can you explain what the four horsemen look like in money conversations and how couples can recognize them?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. So speaking of language, um, yeah, I I hadn't always used this and I hadn't known Gottman for all my life. But um when I landed upon this and learned more about it, it provided a language. Um and as I've learned more about it and as I've used it in my coaching, I have, I will get into what each of them are, but I just a little context. In my conversations with my own husband, whether it be about money or anything else, I'm like, oh, I just did that. I just used it, it was slight, it was minor, but there's a little bit of contempt in there. There's a little bit of sarcasm, eye rolling, that kind of thing. Um, you know, and so it is helpful to have a framework. I have found this to be very powerful in my coaching. And it gives us in the coaching relationship a language to talk about, and it gives the couple a language. Like, oh, I was just, I just use defensiveness. You know, and yeah, um, we just had a funny story with a client uh relating that story. So, anyway, that language is really helpful and powerful. So the four horsemen, that's the framework I use. It's criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling. And would you like me to just give a brief explanation of which each of those are?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, you could. I'd love to hear the funny story about the person you said.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, yeah, I I could um I tell you what, I'll hold that off until I talk about defensiveness. How about that? We'll start with the first horseman criticism. Yeah. Um, so criticism is not a complaint. We still need to be able to comp complain. We still need to not nag, but we still need to bring up a complaint about a problem, about an issue. But that's what a complaint is. It's focused on the issue, on the problem. But criticism is attacking somebody's personality or character.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, so how might can you give us an example? What would that be?

SPEAKER_04:

Yes, you're like, well, you often hear global language like never and always. Like you you never follow the budget. You always, you know, you you always forget to pay the bills. You know, that you can hear the criticism in there, right? Yeah, yeah. Um rather than saying, I feel I feel um anxious when I'm not sure if the bill's gonna be paid on time. You see the difference? Love it. Yeah, yeah. So, and then a criticism will trigger defensiveness. But before I talk about that one, the second one is contempt. And that's just criticism on another level. You're gonna see um, you're gonna start to see sarcasm and eye rolling, you know, maybe like making noises, scoffing, like, geez, you know, I can't, can't believe. Here we go again. You know, I can't believe you'd be so careless. So criticism is wrapped up in there, but it's just it's just at another another level, and you're kind of um I think communicating moral superiority.

SPEAKER_01:

Name calling. Yeah, you're the biggest right, yeah. Why can't you ever stick to a budget, you ding dong or whatever, right?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or just in the way, even if you don't use a, you know, a uh a name calling like ding dong, but that comes out, right? Um, it's just in the um the way that you say why can't you ever? That would be, yeah.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

So we learn in in coaching, you know, like what does this sound like in your money conversations, too, right? So um then the third horseman is defensiveness. And that's just a natural response. Um, you know, if you're gonna be criticized, if criticism is there, then there's probably gonna be defensiveness as well, the third horseman. But then some of us, or depending on, you know, if it's a good day or bad day for us, we're gonna have defensiveness, even if somebody's brought a legitimate complaint in the right way. You know, and there can be underlying reasons why that, you know, some insecurity or, you know, whatever it is. So that is a horseman all of its own, um, defensiveness, you know, something like, um, yeah, but you, you know, or that, you know, well, that's not true. I only did that because. And and the story, the client example, um, sh this couple is in um my group program called Wealth Together. And uh, of course, we've been talking about the horseman. And uh, she was, they were on uh their way to the airport. She was going to Florida to visit a good friend. The good friend has a lot more money and was gonna, you know, pretty much fund most of the trip, but there will be some expenses for her. And they have been talking, uh, having frequent money talks and really just communicating really well and staying on top of things. And he said, you know, we haven't really talked about what this trip is gonna cost. And uh she said, Well, we haven't talked about what your fishing trip is gonna cost like in October. And she was right away, she realized, oh my gosh, that's defensiveness. And he said, Yes, that is not what I, that was not what I was after. That was not what I was asking, you know. Um, and and he said, Isn't that what Dee was just talking to us about?

SPEAKER_02:

They caught themselves.

SPEAKER_04:

Absolutely right. So they caught themselves because, and I think that having that language is really helpful for them. They were like, Oh, right. That's a horseman, and we don't want that. And we don't need that. Yeah, so that's the story, and then the last one, the fourth horseman is stonewalling, and this really gets into dangerous territory because um you shut down. You know, you're in the middle of a conversation, you say, I just can't talk about this right now. Right? I've done it, and I just walk away, you know, and it's so destructive because it leaves the other person just hanging, and you're like thinking to yourself, Well, are we still good? Are are we going to talk about this? So I one of the things that has been really helpful for me, and I know it's been helpful for my clients, is to give ourselves permission to pause. So a lot of times, you know, the defensiveness or and and worse, the stonewalling happens because we are emotionally overwhelmed. In a moment, we just can't not take the higher ground. We feel defensive, we feel insecure, and we just can't talk about it. We have been emotionally hijacked by what they've said, even if they've said it in the right way. Um and so it is okay. In fact, it's better to take a pause because you're not gonna be in your best. Uh you're not gonna be your best person, right? And so this conversation is gonna go sideways if you're not in the right place. So it is absolutely okay to take a pause, but that's different than still walling, right? It's just it's saying, you know what? I I need it, I need a break. I need a pause, but I'm not leaving you, I'm not leaving this. We will come back to it. I need 10 minutes, or or you know, the day is wrapping up. Can we resume this tomorrow during our lunch break? You know, something like that. A pause and a promise. Then it is not stonewalling. And you know, I don't think that I know I didn't, I never realized that I could that that's okay. And to have the compassion with myself that like sometimes I get emotionally hijacked and I need I need a little I need a little break. I need to work on that. I need to calm down, and then I'll be a better person to myself and to my partner. And it's okay to do that. And it was very helpful for me to understand that about myself.

SPEAKER_00:

We'll be right back after this brief message. And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_03:

Well done. What does a healthy weekly money rhythm conversation look like, Dee? And how can we make those money talks feel like not such a big deal where I start to feel a little tight in my chest?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, in fact, I was on another podcast recently where um the couple um used those very words. The money talks are not a big deal anymore. And in fact, during the um, no, this was actually during a session that we had, she brought up um, hey, it's time for our money talk. We're having the money talk today, right? And you know, after and he goes, Oh, I forgot. Oh, but you're right. Yeah, you know, and it was just a funny moment because it was no big deal. And that's what she said. Well, yeah, they're just really no big deal anymore. But yeah, how do we get there? Um, so my approach with the couples is to um try to normalize them. Um, and there's a way to normalize them. So, first of all, frequency when you're working with me every week. I know that sounds like a lot, but think about the benefits. I mean, if you're talking about money, you're connecting in your relationship in so many ways. So um, yeah, when we're working together weekly, and they have guidance with that. So it might be on a particular practical financial thing that we do, because it's not all about communication, right? Um, or also might be um conversations, um, conversation prompts that I have. So, like you mentioned, the Wealth Talk Guide. Um, there are 52 in there, one for every week, if you wanted. And some of them are structured around the individual horsemen, you know, to sort of use that as a lens. And some of them are just more general. Um, so those are available. Um, you could probably think of your own, but if you're if your conversations have been tense, it might be hard to think of ones that are easy. So the idea is to start with ones that are really easy. You know, like I mean, even just a starter one, like um how do you feel about money? And how do you want to feel about money? But there are parameters to that. You go into it with curiosity. You are just asking. And you can affirm and you can reflect, but you can't yeah, but I don't think it should be about that. I don't think, you know, or well, yeah, but this is going on over here. We're not trying to solve problems. Um, we're only just showing up with curiosity and affirmation is great too. So, you know, I've kind of talked about how to make them no big deal, talk about those rules, those parameters. Um, have some ideas, they can be really fun too. You learn so much about your partner, you know, by asking these questions. And um, so be sure that the um types of questions that you're asking are easy, and then the frequency to really kind of get past what it has been before, and to start not being so afraid and anxious going into them and actually look forward to them. So yeah. I love that.

SPEAKER_01:

So I love the the regularity, right? Being able because the more you do something, okay, the less threatening it is. But if it's been six months and you're like, okay, we haven't done quicken or we haven't looked at the or you know, then that tension kind of builds up, then it becomes more irritable and a volatile uh topic. So I can see right now, D listeners, maybe someone listening in and be like, yeah, we do need to talk about it more. But for couples who maybe have a partner where who avoids or resists that money conversation, uh, how can the other partner invite them in without causing the the defensiveness, right? That that horseman to approach. Uh how does that work? How do you begin, I guess, that that habit of talking about it?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, it's the toughest part, right? Getting over that hurdle.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, getting started.

SPEAKER_04:

Absolutely. And you know, when couples come to me, it is usually just it is usually one who's taking the lead. Like, oh, I just this really has to get better, you know? And the other one's kind of dragging their feet, or you know, I mean, that avoidance is just scary and so um common. Um, you know, it is helpful to have a tool like Wealth Talk Guide, like you actually have something, you know, that you can show. Or yeah, I I I don't have it uh available right now, but I am coming up with a new tool where uh might call it partner share, uh partner share tool or something like that. You know, something that you know, somebody from the outside, they're not working with me yet, but you know, they one of the partners shows up and they want to do something like this, you know, and just have something, you know, easy. There is a starter kit that they get, um, and it could be that, but just something to sort of initiate, hey, you know, I've been listening to, you know, this this coach, and you know, they're talking about this, and it sounds a lot like us. I wonder if you'd want to kind of look at what she has here or, you know, look at what she's talking about. So even that can be like a way to do it, right? Um, and I think it's approaching it, whether it's with that or not, or if it's just on your own with no tool or anything to show, just um having that attitude of humility and curiosity, like I really want us to make a stronger connection. So let's, you know, and I know that we don't have that in our money. And because of our money, it probably hurts other areas of a relationship. I love you. I really want this for for you because I love you. So that's sort of the way to invite the conversation, right? Um, and then again, I mean, like to um, you know, to overcome that avoidance and that resistance. It's very important that the first few conversations be really easy. And that's the reason why, you know, being intentional about it. Like, don't sit down and try to solve a problem. Don't try to solve this issue that's going on. Let's just start with learning about each other.

SPEAKER_01:

That's soft startup, right? That even Gottman talks about it almost into the same conversation. Like, I don't think you'd want to spring this on a, you know, put the kids to bed, and then all of a sudden you open up the laptop, and the person had no idea that this money topic. Okay, now we really needed to talk about this because this is driving me nuts, right?

SPEAKER_04:

It's like it's not gonna go well.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, you bring up timing too. Timing's really important. You said that too, Liz, right? Like, right when you show up, you don't want to uh get home or something. And it's always not a good time, often. Yeah, you know what's interesting. Some of the couples I worked with found that um it helped them to schedule a time. Other ones said, no, uh, it has to happen at the playground when we're out there with the kids where there's distraction and other things that will keep it light and keep it from getting into a fight. So I don't know. Whatever helps.

SPEAKER_03:

I love what works, right? Wonderful. Yeah, right. Because when money discussions come up, those emotions can flare so quickly, Dee, right? And Dave. Oh boy. What what practical strategies do you have for us when things start to escalate?

SPEAKER_04:

Um, right. Um, and that is where the Gottman framework comes in too, because um if you dig deeper into that, there are recommended what they call antidotes. Um and those could be applied right there in the middle of the conversation. Um, you know, you just have to back up a little bit and say, you know, I may not have said that the best way. But let me try that again. I feel worried when. And so you start, it's called a gentle startup. I feel, you know, and um, and then you go straight to the issue, the problem. No criticism, no name calling, nothing like that. Um, and uh, you know, the sooner that you can do that in the middle of a conversation, the obviously the the better, um, and repair that midstream if you can. I also mentioned pausing, right? If it's escalating, pause. Just just stop and say, you know what, I don't want it to go in this direction, but I'm not leaving this hanging, not leaving you. Let's take a break and let's, you know, let's resume uh this. Um, so those are a couple of um examples. I would say too, if you feel defensive and you want to respond with defensiveness, the third horseman, just take responsibility for a part of what was said. Even if you really disagree without all of it or you feel attacked, it can really help to say, I hear what you're saying about that, and I it, you know, and I think that there's something there that could be improved. You know, something like that. Just taking some responsibility, boy, that can go that can go a long way. And again, if you have that language of the of the um horseman, I think that can be helpful. Oh, I think that's coming in right now.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, be able to recognize that those you mentioned kind of these repair attempts too, if we get off track. Being like, okay, yeah, you know, let me rephrase that. I shouldn't have said that. That that way. And that takes honestly, it takes humility.

SPEAKER_04:

I know to be over.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

We're wrong. D you also talk about um boundaries. Boundaries. What does that look like for partners to set healthy money boundaries with each other?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, you know, I have not heard of this of it spoken this way in the context of money. And I don't know why. Because, right, we know, we've read, we've we've we've implemented in our lives probably that notion of boundaries, and we know how important they are for ourselves. They're important to ourselves, they're important to other people, our relationship with other people, and so forth. But I think they absolutely apply in the money area. And so I walk people through setting healthy financial boundaries with themselves. We need some with ourselves, with our partner, and also with like others in the outside world. Um, I'll I'll go in a little bit in a little bit more detail with our partners since that's kind of really what we're talking about here. But when I say the world or outside world, an example of that is, you know, all the marketing that we're vulnerable to. So there are certain boundaries that we can set up in our lives so that we are less vulnerable to those.

SPEAKER_03:

With all those beauty, you're talking about beauty products, aren't you?

SPEAKER_04:

I am, I really am. And that you block those and that you don't get on Amazon maybe at 10 o'clock at night when you're tired. And yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Home shopping shows, I think, is another big one. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Yeah. So that's an example of a boundary that you set for yourself or you're set with the outside world, or or if you have a family dynamic where people are asking money for you in an appropriate way. And that and that hurts your your own, you know, family. That would be an example. But with your partner, um, yeah, I mean, it might be we're trying to work on partnership, right? Building a partnership, working as a team around money. And of course, we have different roles. Some people are better at the nuts and bolts, and some people are better at the investing and the bigger picture stuff, you know, and you figure that out together. But um, you do need to oftentimes need boundaries with one another. It might look something like um, you know, if if either of us are gonna spend over$200, then that's something we're gonna talk about together first. So just be sure that your hair, your products there, Liz, are under the 200. They're not working either. They're not working. I think I'll give up.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_04:

That is one of the biggest areas with a lot of women. And it's kind of funny, I don't do my nails at all. I don't, I don't, I get my hair cut like twice a year. I just don't do any of that stuff, but but I totally get it. I know I'm weird. Um, or it might be, you know, um, we're not gonna talk about money until we've both gotten home and settled and feel like we're in the right place. So we're always gonna ask, is this a good time? So you you know, if you I can I can identify some of the things that have tripped you up, some of the things that can set you off. Um uh then you can put boundaries about that. Yeah. Or it might be one. Um, I could imagine you had mentioned your husband going through kind of the list of the charges, right?

SPEAKER_03:

On the cards, making sure there's no fraud, right? Making sure it's all legit.

SPEAKER_04:

Totally fine. But there might be a situation, maybe not in your relationship, but in somebody else's, where they go through and they they criticize, like, well, what was this for with that tone of voice? Or, you know, how much did you spend on? And so, you know, a boundary would be um, you know, I don't want to be criticized for how I spend, can we just approach it with curiosity first and and and you know, highlight that and make that a boundary?

SPEAKER_00:

We'll be right back after this brief message. And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_03:

You know, there is something about working together. I must say, when I I think it is just um, uh, what do we say? It's just such a pleasure, I guess, to try to grow wealth together as a couple. You know, I really do love that, that whole idea. Um, and it also makes me think twice when I do put something on the credit card, for instance, right? Uh, like, do I really want to um explain this? Is this really worth it? Do I want to take care of this thing? Um I I do find that to be quite a lovely, lovely concept when it comes to building more together, building wealth together.

SPEAKER_04:

Building together. Yeah, that's the name of my group program for couples. And love the name of that. Thank you. Yeah, it can mean so many different things. It doesn't just necessarily mean assets, right? Financial assets. I mean, it is, you do need to build financial security and whatever that financial freedom means to you. But wealth, it can mean, you know, being able to do the things that are most important to us. And that can be so different from one couple to the next.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Is there a way for couples to discover their unique money style talks, Dee?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, yeah. I've actually named them. Um, okay. It's very crude, but I do have four categories. And they can take the money talks quiz and they can find out what category they're in. It's not static, it will change. Um, but yeah, they're called sidesteppers, so they're the avoiders. Yeah. And um, you know, that could be because of fights, or it could just be like, yeah, don't like money, you know, or I don't like how it goes. Yeah. Uh sparring partners. Oh, they get into it. Yeah, they get into it. Um, circlers. And they're the ones that, I mean, they're not necessarily fighting, but every time they have they talk about money, they don't really have a clear objective and goal. And they just go in circles and they leave it going, uh I don't know what we're gonna do, or that doesn't, yeah, I don't know. We didn't solve anything there. Yeah. And then, and then there is a fourth called what I call builders. So they are having positive conversations, they're moving forward. Uh, they're they're getting into a groove, and we just kind of um support that and and build upon that. Um, but yeah, if you take the quiz, it's just a fun one-minute interactive quiz online, and then you can get that. And then they also um get their personalized results and some ways to start shifting. Um yeah, yeah. But um yeah, I mean, people usually do fall into uh one of these, and it's helpful to sort of identify that so they know what work they have at them.

SPEAKER_03:

So just to go over real quick, those are the sidesteppers, the sparrers, the circlers, and the fourth was Builders. The builders. That's great. Yeah, they're on their way. Thank you for that. Do you work at our listers find out more about you and the helpful resources you offer, like this great quiz?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Um, they can go to my website and it's just the uh I know you'll have stuff in the show notes, but um, the letter D, and then Zimmermanfinance.com. Um, but yeah, yeah. And the link I'm sure um we'll have in the notes too for the Money Talks quiz. And they can find the Money Talks quiz right away on the website too. Um important to know that when you do take the quiz, you will be able to get um what I call wealth talk starter kit. So it's not the whole shebang, the wealth talk guide, but it's the wealth talk starter kit, which will give you a few conversation starters and give you a few ideas of how to shift things. Like I think the gentle startup is in there too. And I mentioned earlier that sometimes when you have something tangible like that, it's like, oh, I could show this to my partner. This is what I'm talking about. This is, you know, what she's talking about. Um, and then on the website, you can absolutely find out a lot more about the Wealth Together program. It's online. That part of it is self-paced, but there's weekly group sessions, it's a year program, so they're fully supported because I I love working hands-on with people, you know, that touch, that personal touch, because yeah, otherwise they're gonna listen to lessons and they might have even liked them a lot, but they're gonna get distracted and walk away. So, yeah, to change things, really need that accountability piece and that that uh personal touch um layer so they can find out about that. And it's really about money conversations, there, you know, it that's all throughout it, like that's just the lens, you know, throughout the whole thing. But then there's your personal money mindset, and then there is all of the practical stuff, the stuff, the competencies, the things we didn't learn about how to effectively manage our money and to grow our wealth. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Thank you for all that you offer. We will indeed add those to our show notes. Thank you. Yeah, thanks. Super appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01:

Resources, Dee. Thank you. Um, hey, before we let you go, we like to ask all our all of our guests a couple of questions. The first one, in honor of the name of our podcast, Stronger Marriage Connection. What do you feel like is the is a key based on your uh you know your background, even your ministry work, your communication background, your money stuff. What do you think is a is a key to a stronger marriage connection?

SPEAKER_04:

Uh connection. I don't want to I do agree that it was good to add it to the name. I really do, Liz.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Um, and I don't mean to sound like a broken record, um, but uh seriously, connection. I experienced that in my in my own marriage, and I'm gonna add a daily connection. It is so easy for me to feel disconnected after just one day of not really connecting with my husband. You know, like first thing in the morning, you know, just checking in with him, at least a hug or a, you know, what you got going on today, you know, frequent daily um connections is really what I personally need. And I'd be surprised if if others don't also. Um, and so um, and sometimes we have to be really intentional about that. It's not like it has to take a lot of time, but we do have to be mindful of it and say, this is the person that I love. So I am gonna be mindful of this, and I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna do this. And I would add one other thing to that, and that would be, and I know this has been mentioned too, and and because it's so important is repair, right? And I talked about repair. How do we repair? It's better in our conversations if we can repair midstream in our conversations around money, um, or if we need um to take that pause. So, or if we just blew it, it just went, it just blew up. But repair as soon as we can, because it is for me, I know emotionally, it's a terrible place to be. It's low, it's lonely, and nothing in my life feels good if there is something that needs to be repaired in my relationship with my husband. Um, and I grew up, it is so hard for me. Repair, honestly, is so hard for me because I grew up around silence and it could go on for months. And so repair was not modeled for me at all, at all. And so when I know repair is needed, it is not comfortable for me. I am afraid of it. I'm afraid of bringing it up, I'm afraid of being vulnerable. I know I will cry, which I hate, but that is just the way I am. If I'm hurt or angry, I will cry and I wish I wouldn't. Um, you know, so I think we really avoid the repair because we are afraid of it for one reason or another. The guy might be, you know, maybe he's not gonna cry as much as I would, but he's afraid of it because she's gonna cry. Or, you know, I know that's a generalization, but you know, there are different ways, way reasons that we're afraid, but we if you know the benefits, you know, um, then you push through. And and maybe, you know, knowing some of these things like the gentle startup can help, you know, like you can start the conversation by I feel or I felt hurt when we talked about this. Then you have a few words just to start it. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_04:

There you go.

SPEAKER_01:

Thanks. Thanks, C. Hey, we the second question that I like to we like to ask all of our guests is that their takeaway of the day, is there a take-home message from all that you've shared that you hope will stick with our uh listeners?

SPEAKER_04:

You can do this, I think. Believe in it, you can do it, and now you've got some ideas of how it's just a matter of taking action. And underneath that, undergirding that is I want you to have the awareness that this is normal. You came into the marriage with two very different money histories, you've got scripts running around in your head, right? You have different money memories and things like that. So knowing that it's normal, that you're you're not crazy, your partner isn't crazy, and that if you could understand that and start from that curiosity and get to know them better around this, you think you know them well, but you you maybe don't around this, if you show that curiosity and begin to have those conversations and learn. Um you can have that compassion for yourself and for your partner and start to connect. Yeah, that would be my takeaway. Believe that it can happen and start with that curiosity.

SPEAKER_01:

Powerful. Yeah, thanks, Dee. Liz, what about you? What's your takeaway of the day with Dee Zimmerman?

SPEAKER_03:

You know, I don't know that I've ever heard anyone um suggest looking out for the four horse of the apocalypse with any particular topic, such as money. It's that's a brilliant idea, uh, Dee, nonetheless. So thank you for bringing that to Stronger Marriage Connection. And I do love this sad awareness. And I suppose we could replace money with any other topic, just being aware of the defensiveness, criticism, stonewalling, and contempt. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04:

Absolutely. And because money is such one of those top areas of conflict, why not apply it in here?

SPEAKER_03:

You're right, you're right. And you, Dave, what's your greatest takeaway from our interview today with Dee Zimmerman?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, Liz, I do. I like the the four horsemen. I love the the questions, the simple little um resources that Dee offers on her website. So that'll be helpful for our listeners and her show notes. And then she mentioned a word that I want to repeat that has stuck with me, and that is the word intentional. Intentional. With any kind of change, um, you'll keep doing the same thing over and over. We'll get into these habits, or we don't want to rock the boat, or I don't want to bring something up because it's uncomfortable. In order to make things better, it takes intentional and sometimes almost almost it may be uncomfortable, and you know, maybe end in a blow up the first time or something, but intentional effort um over time that you bring that humility, bring that intentional effort, that work, and then I love the consistency, the the weekly, uh simple little check-ins. Could it be on the drive to the grocery store or whatever it is? Yeah, yeah, yeah. How are we doing or what we have coming up? And those simple little things that uh questions that won't cause the strong feelings. But yeah, get started with intention. So thank you.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, it's great to hear what other people's takeaways are when they yeah, listen to this. So I appreciate your reflecting on that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. Well, Dee, this has been a joy, a real pleasure uh for us to have you on. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing so much wisdom, uh, resources, and insights today.

SPEAKER_04:

You are most welcome. It was a privilege and so fun to talk about this stuff.

SPEAKER_01:

Ah, well, thanks again. All right, friends. We'll see you next time on another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection Podcast. Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_03:

It's been a joy. And remember, it's the small things that create a stronger marriage connection. See you again soon.

SPEAKER_01:

Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us a favor and take a second to subscribe to our podcast and the Utah Marriage Commission YouTube channel at Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the show. Be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment, and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at StrongerMarriageWife and Facebook at Stronger Marriage. So be sure to share with us which topics you loved, which guests we should have on the show next. If you want even more resources to improve your marriage or relationship connection, visit strongermarriage.org where you'll find free workshops, e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys, and more. Each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, Rex Polanis, and the team at Utah State University, and you, our audience. You make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions, and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.