Stronger Marriage Connection
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Stronger Marriage Connection
How Grief Reshapes Identity, Love, And Daily Life | Alexandra Carroll | #153
We explore how grief moves like a spiral through life, how it reshapes identity and marriage, and why presence matters more than platitudes. Alexandra Carroll shares her story, reframes the stages, and offers practical tools for self-kindness, attunement, and meaning.
• stages as observations, not a rigid program
• grief as spiral with triggers across the year
• why each person grieves differently
• words to avoid and what to say instead
• talk less, listen more as core support
• setting a place at the table in marriage
• self-kindness through outsourcing and rest
• quiet, social media fasting, grief fasting
• building a grief calendar and planning care
• finding meaning after acceptance
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Dr. Dave Schramm:
Dr. Liz Hale:
On today's episode of Stronger Marriage Connection, Dr. Liz and I welcome Alexandra Carroll, and we dive into the deep emotion and power of grief and how it can impact our personal lives and our relationships. Alexandra shares her personal story of losing her mom unexpectedly at a young age and how that traumatic loss continues to affect her and her relationship story, including writing a book about grief entitled Untangling Loss After Grief. Alexandra Carroll is a grief advocate, author, and former professor with a PhD in theology and religious studies. After the sudden loss of her mother, Alexandra turned her focus to helping others navigate grief with honesty and compassion, inviting us all to talk more openly about death, dying, and healing. We hope you enjoy the show.
SPEAKER_00:Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection. I'm psychologist Dr. Liz Hale, along with the esteemed professor Dr. Dave Schram. Together, we have dedicated our life's work to bring you the best we have in valid marital research, along with a few tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. We're so glad to have you here. You know, the topic today is grief. Maybe a little heavier topic, but it's inevitable, right? However you look at it. There have been plenty of recent life experiences to grieve over as a nation, a community, neighborhoods, and even families. There has always been and there will always be grief. Dave, you know, I think most people have long accepted, expected that grief comes in stages, right? You've heard them. What are some of them? First one, denial.
SPEAKER_04:Denial. Yeah. And then bargaining and all those, yeah, bargaining, graduate school. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes. In other words, the idea is that grievers complete each stage at a time, like climbing a staircase. Once they reach the top landing, grief should supposedly end. But does it? Our guest today, Dr. Alexander Carroll, shares that while we appreciate when things can be wrapped up neatly, our insistence that grief tidally fit into a finite program may propel our unhealthy move on and get over with it tendency. Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection, Alexandra.
SPEAKER_06:Thank you for having me. It's lovely to be here.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for writing a book on this very key topic. Would you please take us back to the beginning of when grief became your focus? Probably what, 10 years ago?
SPEAKER_06:About 10 and a half years ago now, yes. Um well, 10 and a half years ago, I was a relatively newly minted PhD um in theology and religious studies, of all things. Um I was studying um suffering and healing and how people use art and literature to um facilitate the healing process, really. And I was an adjunct professor in Washington, DC, um teaching peace studies and convict resolution, which kind of it ties in where you're big subjects, you're learning how to use different tools to heal really big divides. Um so I was teaching, you know, college students how to, well, protest and do all these other things, but also giving them strategies for how to talk to people when you don't agree and when things are really fraught. And it's it's really all about the healing at that point. So at that point, um, my mother, I was living with my parents in Virginia, Richmond, Virginia. And my mother um was having heart surgery. And um, you know, it was one of those things where it was, she wasn't looking forward to it, nobody was, and this was her second bypass surgery. And so she went in and we all went in together, which was great, actually ended up being great that we all went in with her, um, my dad and I. And she had surgery on a Monday, and surgery went well. And then 4 a.m. on Tuesday morning, we started getting phone calls about how the recovery was not progressing in a really good direction, and things were going, you know, from stable to unstable to more critical over the course of the next three days. So she was put on life support um on Tuesday, and by Thursday, it was clear that there was no coming back um without like severe um in uh interventions, like amputating all of her limbs. Like that, that's where we were. And um uh it's a little bit probably too much detail. But anyway, so um we took her off life support on Thursday, um, and we had the family come in. My mother's sister and her niece and nephew were there. Um so yeah, and uh that's that's I had three days, we had all had three days to really digest this and and come to terms with the fact that this was happening. Um, and so I had an academic response, um, which was to go research, to go look and read about grief and find out what exactly I was getting into. Um, so I found some books, I started journaling a lot, writing about what I was reading and thinking and feeling. I talked with a lot of people, family members, friends, um, who had lost parents, um, mostly parents, um, at various ages in their life. And um, I tried a writing class as well just to see how that would work, but I it was too soon to process everything. Um, so that that didn't go anywhere. Um, and then I was still looking for a full-time position, so I ended up becoming an academic advisor in Washington, D.C. and moving to Maryland. Um, and my dad stayed in Richmond. And so I was working with um kids, with students in college and listening to, you know, their life stories too, and they're having experiences similar to and somewhat different from what I was having, but they were still going through trauma and suffering and trying to deal with all of that stuff while being at school at the same time. And so I just was making mental notes of things and really felt like I'm working on these academic articles, but I'm not really in that anymore. I feel like I might I want to write about something else. And so um, I just started making notes. My journal was just full of notes of things I wanted to write about and things I wish I had known and advice I wish that somebody had given me that I wish I could pass on to the next person. Um and then I really found myself advocating for my students too, both with their professors and with the other administration uh members, because um, you know, they weren't really being listened to as well. Sometimes they were just sort of dismissed for just being kids having problems. But it's a little bit deeper than that. And it really permeates everything that you're doing. And um, and so in 2017, I found myself engaged and we were debating where to live. And so it was, well, we could move to Washington, D.C., where I could keep my job, and my soon-to-be husband could have found a different one in consulting, or he could keep his job in Vermont. And I'm from New England and was kind of interested in going back, and but there weren't any jobs there. So I could look for adjuncting and write. And so that was where I fell was into that category of okay, I'll move and I can write my book. And so it just kind of came out there. It just I finally had the chance with nothing really to do but write. And so I just it took off, and that really became the focus of of kind of the next volume of my life at that point was grief.
SPEAKER_00:Mm-hmm. Wow. And you and your mother were obviously very close. Yeah, we were. I mean, this is a devastating loss for you. I remember, I remember the loss of my own mother, yes.
SPEAKER_06:Especially at that point in time, too. I mean, I you know, I wasn't young, but I wasn't older. I was sort of still trying to find my footing. And um, I remember saying when she was in the hospital that I just wish she would see me settled. That's the only thing I wanted, and it didn't happen. So But I unfortunately have her to thank for this new trajectory, which is so it's very bittersweet. If it weren't for her, I wouldn't have this. So I don't know. You know, it's one of those things. But yeah, that's the the unfortunate trade-off.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Wow, what do you uh that's a great perspective on that, uh Alexandria? And as Liz mentioned at the the top of the show in this introduction, just with there's so much, it feels like right now in our country with um grieving, with loss, with with death, dying divorce. I have two two friends who called me um yeah, just last uh was it two weeks ago? Two friends were going through a a divorce. I'm going to a funeral actually this Thursday um for a friend who passed away after a long, yeah, like 10-year battle with uh with cancer. Uh so yeah, just very timely. It feels even very I mean heavy, but man, what an important topic. I'm looking forward to hitting a head on because people are, Alexander, looking for resources for for help. So uh looking forward to our our discussion. Um, I learned in grad school uh about the stages of of grief, right? The five stages, Elizabeth Kubler Ross, I think it was widely known. How accurate or helpful uh, you know, the things involved. I haven't, this is not my area. So I'm curious, you know, have we moved on? Is it still being used, that framework today?
SPEAKER_06:Um it is, and I still it's still very relevant. I think um so the five stages Kubler Ross developed while she was working with people who were just given terminal diagnoses. So she was following their response and their reaction um to that diagnosis and the understanding of what's going to happen to them um for however long they had left. And so what she noticed was this cycle of denial um that progressed into anger, the bargaining, um, uh the depression, and then finally the acceptance. And if any of us have known people who were going through this, you know that they get people get to a point where they're like, I'm okay, I'm at peace with this, I know this is gonna happen, I don't want it, but I'm I've accepted that it is, and I I'm it's I'm okay with it, which you kind of think is a little strange because how why would you be? But you do get to that point, I think. And uh, I my family members have um that I've experienced it gotten to that point as well. And um, so what happened was that she it uh then noticed that some of these same things were happening with the family members um during the diagnosis process and after the loss as well, which is kind of to be expected. They seem, you know, the denial of I can't believe this is happening or I'm not ready for this. I know I certainly went through that. Um and uh in the hospital too, of all things. And so later what happened was that it really became codified later on as a very rigid process that she didn't really intend it to be. It was just sort of an observation of how people move through different things. Um, but for her, she was looking at the experiences rather than moving from A to B to C to D and then finally being done with the process. Um, so I think when it comes to the accuracy of how she captured the grief process, whether it's through because you've got a terminal diagnosis or you're dealing with a loss or a divorce or loss of a job or anything like that, it's really accurate in terms of the experience of the grief process, um, but not accurate in terms of the model of step progression that you might go through. So you're not gonna feel a denial one day and then the next day feel anger and then the next day move past that into bargaining and be done with everything. Um, it's really a cycle. You know, I still 10 and a half years and I still can't believe my mother's dead. You know, it's it's it's there are days when I think, oh, I have to call my mom. And I forget that she's not here. And so it happened, it still happens. So it's not something that happens and it's done with. Um, but that the process, the description of this cycle is really helpful as well, I think, because we can all understand what we might expect. And to know that what's even more helpful, that we're still going to go through this for years. It doesn't happen once, it doesn't even happen twice. It's a cycle that continues throughout the course of the rest of your life, really. Um, it just gets duller maybe over time. The anger subsides, it's not as sharp, but some days I still feel it. So, yes, there are I find them very helpful. Um, David Kessler, who is a co-author with Elizabeth Kuba-Ross and also a grief expert in his own right, he suffered some tremendous losses. His mother, his son. Um, he's he's a wonderful resource at grief.com. But he um recently wrote a book that talks about the sixth stage that he has wants to add to this experience. I haven't read the book yet, but it's about finding meaning in life, which I think is a really important thing to add to this because once you go through all of these things and you, yes, you accept it, but now what do you do? And that was sort of my question, a question that other people ask is okay, this happened. My life is totally different. This isn't even a different chapter in the same book. This is a whole new volume. What am I supposed to do now? Who am I now? What experiences do I want to have now? Where is the meaning in my life when the person who was so much a part of my making meaning in my life before is not there to experience it? So his adding that sixth stage, I think, is really important to the discussion. Um, and I'm surprised it hasn't been talked about earlier. I think it's it's kind of gone around in other um areas, like with Holocaust studies, and Victor Frankel talked about the real importance of finding meaning to be able to survive and move through a period of horrendous suffering to be able to come out the other side and survive it. Um so I do think that adding that to the five stages is really important. Um, one of the books that I found very helpful was a book called Grieving Mindfully, and it's by Samit M. Kumar, who is a Buddhist. Um, and he talks about this idea of experiencing these, the cycle as a spiral. So it just goes, it's like a seashell, it goes around in circles and it never really goes away, but it goes from being very tight and very painful and very strong in sensation to moving out and kind of dulling, not um evaporating and becoming erased over a period of time, but just stretching out and becoming less sharp and less painful, but it's still there on a daily basis. And that I think is something that really helped me in thinking about these five stages as less of a ladder to climb and more of is just a spiral to kind of some days are going to be worse than others. One day is going to be more painful, one day will feel a little better. And it's um the closer you come to certain moments of your calendar, birthdays, holidays, special, you know, I don't know, anniversaries, special days that you celebrated with somebody, that's when you feel that that stuff coming back a little stronger. But then when that passes, the spiral kind of gets larger. And so um I think how adding that the spiral to the discussion helps a lot in in and um making it a workable and helpful framework for people.
SPEAKER_02:We'll be right back after this brief message.
SPEAKER_05:And we're back. Let's dive right in.
SPEAKER_00:Something just surprised you still, right, Alexandra? Yes. And I think a common misconception is that we all grieve the same.
unknown:Right?
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Even though we both lost our mothers, and maybe that's where the commonality ceases, although I can find a lot of myself in your story, quite honestly. Um, you know, you know what uh catches me off guard, Dave and Alexandra's. So it's been trying to think, 14th years since my own mother's past. Maybe longer than that. Goodness, goodness, closer to 20 now. Um, it what surprises me is when I'm out, let's say TJ Maxx or somewhere, and women, adult women are shopping with their mothers, and I'll hear one call to the other, Mom, hey, mom, look at this. I don't know what it is about that that just makes me grieve inside. Just like, oh, I wish I had that option.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, I I've the first, I think the first time I went grocery shopping after my mother died, I felt like I had a bullseye on me. You know, like there's a big knee on sign that saying, dead mother. And um, because I felt it so acutely. And every time I I couldn't, it took forever to be able to go to places that she and I used to go to because I would walk in and I would see, like you said, mothers and and daughters. And it it still hurts. It's still really painful when people talk about, you know, going to visit family members. And I think that's really nice. I I love that for you. I think that's great. Um, and and yes, it it's um it's not the same for people. And we share the commonality, the experience in terms of the loss of a person that's close to us. But there are a lot of different factors that come into play. Um, like talk about some of those, please. Yes, go ahead. Um, you know, who the person was to you. You know, my dad and I lost the same person, but my father lost his wife and life partner. I lost my mom and my, you know, my ride or die best friend right there. Um, and so there were different expectations for that person in our lives. And so we weren't feeling the same way about it. He he has different experiences with like moving that I didn't have because I'd been, I'd moved by myself before, but he hadn't done that in 46 years, I think. Um, you know, how the loss happened is is different. A lot of people have, you know, not everybody has somebody who ended up in the hospital the way I did. Um, and the so it was sudden, maybe tragic, maybe it was an accident. Uh, maybe, you know, there was some violence involved, maybe it was natural. And everybody's um that, you know, that aspect of it does matter too, because that affects how you feel about it. Did you get to say goodbye? Did that person get to say goodbye? Um, were you able to fight some sort of not quite closure, but you know, way to kind of cap that moment as, you know, I don't even know how to describe it, but I guess maybe closure is the best word for that. Um what is your relationship? You know, not everybody likes their mother. Some people don't get along with their mothers. And some people would be like, great, glad she's gone. But even if you don't like somebody, there's still stuff that you have to deal with. It's different than what I have dealt with and maybe what you've dealt with, but there's still other trauma maybe to go through. Um, what is the view of death that your family had? How did you talk about it? Did you talk about it? Did you ever experience a death before, or is this the first one? Um, what coping mechanisms have you been taught as a family? What have you picked up along the way? Are they healthy or are they unhealthy? Um, what's your own temperament? Are you a person who likes to talk about things? Are you a person who hides everything inside and doesn't ever verbalize it? Or, you know, how do you deal with the loss? Um, how old are you? You know, are you 16, 12, 21, 40? Um, you know, I was 38. My mom lost her parents at 21 and 14. Um and she's still, you know, 65 years old. She was crying because it was her birthday. Um and you know, age, how old you were at that point when you really needed your mother, I think matters too, or needed that person in your life. Um what how well do you bounce back from stress? What's your resilience level? Was that really something that was bolstered in you by your family? Did you find a way to bolster it in yourself? Um, and what meaning do you think you can make of this? It's really hard to figure out what you're gonna do. Um and some people would get stuck in that complicated grief where that meaning just they can't get past it, they can't get into that and forget that there is meaning um after life. It's hard, I mean, after death. Um and it's hard to cope with that in the beginning stages of it. You know, what do you what is gonna happen now? What do I do? Who am I? So there are a lot of questions that people ask, and they all have different answers to them based on where they are in the world, who they are, what their job is, where they're living, what their priorities are. And it's it's just um something that everybody has to be patient with because you there's no one size fits all thing. Like grief itself is universal in the experience, but the experience itself is really custom to that person and where they're coming from. So personal.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.
SPEAKER_04:Wow. Alexandra, in your book, uh Untangling Loss After Grief, you have a section designated to quote the right to fall apart. You added that you felt criticized for grieving after your mother's death. It appears that death and our emotional response to it induces this fear and anxiety in our friends and family. Interesting. Why is that?
SPEAKER_06:Yes. Um I felt a lot of pressure just to keep everything inside and kind of move on and not be emotional about it, not be sad. And so um one of the things I think happens with horror well, life in general, if you think about um, you know, horror movies, thrillers, anything that scares you. It's it's October, so there's a lot of, you know, horror movies up right now. And horror movies, horror TV shows, the dreadful thing you're watching is far removed from your real life. So you are observing it, you're witnessing it, you're not experiencing it. You can think about it from a safe distance and you can talk about it with people and laugh about it with people and be like, oh, do you believe this actually happened? That seemed a little bit too much, that was that would never happen in real life. So you can talk about it when it's at a distance, but the second that it happens in real life, because death is the realest of real experiences, there is no coming back. You cannot change it, you cannot fix it. There's nothing anybody can do. And it forces people to really deal with the scary things in life. And it's hard to talk about it. Um, it's really easy to watch it, but it's harder to sit with somebody and feel like they're really going through that thing. And this is real. This isn't something I can put on pause or shut off if it gets too scary. I have to deal with this. And this other person who's grieving, I don't know what to do with this. Um, you can't help anybody. And I think that helplessness bothers people who are trying to support grievers. I can't do anything. So I'm just gonna tell you to what I got was just go get on medication, just go to therapy, and you'll be fine. And it was like that works well for you because it puts me in a separate place where you don't have to deal with my anguish. But that doesn't change anything for me because I still have to deal with it. Um, and you know, the coping mechanisms that we have, they're built for short-term experiences. They're not really built for an entire lifetime. You can use them for a couple of days, for an hour, for a month, maybe, maybe even a year, but 30, 40, 50, 60 years. It's a long time to deal with, use a coping mechanism and to make sure that it's structurally sound. I mean, that has to be rebuilt too. And um, frankly, we're not taught as well, I think, to include death as part of the life cycle. We have life and there's death. And sometimes it seems like this is a punishment. Like if you die young, you must have done something. Or, you know, you were saying you must have done something where you know, people look at what people experience in life. That's got nothing to do with it. All of this stuff is just random. It's maybe attached to lifestyle, but that's you're not going to blame somebody for their death. That's not, it's not their fault. The circumstances just led to that, and you can't do anything to change it. Um, and so it's not as readily accepted as part of the life cycle. Um, we were a little different in my family because I had, you know, some relatives who were in Auschwitz, and we talked about the death as part of life cycle often. Um, you know, my mom went through loss early as well. And um, so I learned about this at the at the kitchen table, and this was not what my friends were doing. And so it was a shock to me sometimes when I would talk about these things and they'd be like, So how's the weather? And it's like, oh, okay, I guess we're not at that point to talk about that. Um yeah, but death also is a change. It's a change, and you know how well we deal with change. Um we don't love it. We especially don't love it when we have no control over it. And not only does the circumstance of that person, that griever, change, but their life changes too. And for a grief supporter, they might not be able to handle the change they see in that person at all because they're seeing maybe that person is becoming someone they don't know and they don't know if they want to get to know that person. So they have to change themselves to adapt to a situation in order to be a good supporter. Um, you know, lifestyles change, grievers change, and then our relationships change in accordance with that. It's just a natural kind of flow of everything. Um, and people have a lot of difficulty with that. They don't want things to change. And so we try to say, I'm not gonna deal with it. You just it's you're done, it's worth your fixed end. Let's just move forward as if nothing happened. And so I think that those are the main areas where the trouble really lies of really being able to accept it as a as real. It's too real.
SPEAKER_00:You talk about being a good supporter, Alexander. How do we do that? Let's say someone we know when love is going through grief, someone close to them, maybe maybe that we're not as associated with, but what what can we say? What should we avoid saying? Do you have some tips and tools for us? Well, I have many.
SPEAKER_06:That this is my next book, I think. Um I am going to borrow a phrase from Hamilton, the musical. Um, talk less, listen more. And that's really all it boils down to. Don't say stupid stuff. You know, you don't need to to try and and match the experience. You know, some things that I think people should avoid. I know exactly what you're going through. Someone said that to me. Her mother was still alive. And I was like, I don't I don't think so. This was at the wake. I don't, I don't really think you do. Um, oh, they're in a better place. I love that one. Really? You don't think the better place would be at my daughter's sixth birthday party? I kind of think it would be different. Yeah. Or what the priest at the funeral said to me, which uh made me want to punch him, which I know is not the reaction you want to have, um, was oh, this is part of God's plan. Really? My dad's a mess. I'm a mess. People are being rude. This is this is really all of it? Are you serious? Um, there's a reason for everything. That's one of my favorites. I mean, I know that's come out of my mouth for uncertain things, but what's the reason? What's seriously? So I could write a book about this? I'd rather have my mom. Um, you know, oh, another one that's great is you're not over this yet. It's been six months, it's been a year. And um, you know, my my insert person here, my spouse, my sibling almost died once, so I know almost is not the same as the actual thing. My mom almost died a couple of times before. Not the same, not even in the same ballpark. Um, and the funny thing is, those last two things a doctor said to me, one of my mother's doctors said to me, and I was just thinking, oh, okay. You know, they when they asked how my dad was doing, and this was maybe three or four months after uh my mother passed, and I said, Well, he's devastated. And she said, Still? And I looked at her like it's been four months. This was his life partner, and she's she said, Oh, oh, I'm I'm so sorry. And but really, you know, um so the it's really, I think it's a little bit easier. Well, not easier, but the thing to do, honestly, is just to sit there. Just sit and listen. If they want to cry, let them cry. If they just want to sit and say nothing, let them sit and say nothing. They there nothing has to be said. But I know what I wanted most was just someone to sit next to me and hold my hand or hug me and just let me cry. And that's all I wanted. And that's the one thing I feel like I missed out on. Um, I had some people who did that, but not everybody. And that's really it. Just sit and listen and let them do what they need to do. Um, and if you really feel like you need to say something, something simply as um, I'm sorry that you have to deal with this. I'm sorry you're going through this right now. Um, I don't know what to say. Just be honest. I don't know what to say about this. This is too big for me. I don't know what to say, but I want to be here. So I'm just gonna sit. Um, you know, ask for ask to see pictures. Ask for stories. What's their your favorite memory of this person? Tell your stories of your encounters with this person. Um, one of the best things that happened in my grief experience was my boss actually. Um, he was the head of our department in the religion department at GW. And he, I had been emailing with you know the administration and I emailed him, or actually, he emailed me and asked to meet with me. And he said, please bring some pictures of your mother. And I showed him pictures and we talked about her for half an hour. He'd never matter, but we had a great conversation. And that made me feel really seen. It made me feel like she mattered to somebody other than me and that the experience that I was going through mattered. And he was like, wow, you know, she was. And this was actually the picture that I showed. Um, one of the pictures I showed him was the one sitting behind me. And he's like, wow, you know, she was a beautiful woman. And we talked about growing up and and the the actual experience, you know, I had with her. And it's as simple as that. We like to talk about the person we lost. We love it. We absolutely love it. And it does not make me sad to talk about my mom at all. I may cry, but that's because I love reliving the experience. So asking for stories is really helpful. Um, and it can bring uh, you know, connect to you in a way that you maybe weren't expecting. Um, so I think yeah, listening a lot more than talking is is probably the better way to go, as opposed to inserting, you know, your foot in your mouth and saying something. We can never underestimate just showing up and being there. Exactly. Right. Just come over, just sit. Hey, let's watch a movie. Whatever. It doesn't have to be anything spectacular. It just has to be presence. Or just call over the phone. You know, I had a friend who had a miscarriage once, and I called her and I said she was crying. I said, I'm just gonna stay on the phone with you. I'm not gonna say anything. You can say something if you want to, but I'm just gonna sit here with you as long as you want. And she just cried and that was it. And it was great. You know, it was it was helpful for both of us because I didn't know what to do.
SPEAKER_04:So those are great, yeah, great tips. Very concrete, helpful tips, Alexandra. Thank you. After your mother's funeral, the many uh you know, kindnesses and people being nice and the calls and things, uh they slow down and you realize that you needed to provide your your own kindness. Um we can't outsource uh self-care, or or can we? What suggestions do you have for those who need uh self-kindness today?
SPEAKER_06:I think you can outsource some things if you really think about it. So uh for example, this week um we finally hired a cleaning service. Yeah. You know, it's it sounds really basic, but I get five hours of my life back this week. Yes. And that's five hours that I can choose to do what I want. I can work a little bit more, I can rest maybe, I can go for a walk, I can take care of myself. It's it's five hours I didn't have last week. And it's small things like that. They don't have to be huge. You know, we also have a handyman company coming in to hang up some shelves because we just don't have time. And I mean, everything is just sitting on the floor, and it's making my peace of mind crazy. I don't have peace of mind. Well, helping having somebody come in and take care of the mess will help my peace of mind, help me be able to relax a little bit, take some of that mental load off of, oh, I haven't gotten that done yet, or oh, I still need to do that to keep forgetting. Um, you know, small things like getting my hair colored. I did it by myself for a long time and we moved, and I was like, I am not doing this anymore. I'm going somewhere. That's the first thing I did when we moved. I found a colorist. I'm going. Nobody can reach me. I can sit there, I can read a book. This is for me. Somebody's gonna take care of me for an hour, and that's all I really need. You know, getting my nails done. I go more for um the relaxation of it and being out of the house and not having to deal with anything. Nobody can, again, I can't talk to you. I have wet nails. Sorry, can't do anything, can't answer the phone. Um, you know, getting a grocery delivered. There's sometimes when we first moved, and my daughter was, I could not take her to a store. She's very active, and it was like a four-hour process. And so I just was able to do a couple of grocery deliveries over the summer when she was here and not in school, and it helped. It took that mental load and that stress off. So there are certain small things you can do to outsource um some of and treat yourself well that way. You know, get takeout. Some days, some weeks, it's just too hard to cook. And some days you just don't feel like doing it because you're exhausted. Get takeout. It takes that responsibility and that stress off of you. So there are small things we can do, but large, you know, larger things. Um, I think in this day and age, that um this self-care market has become so saturated with over-the-top self-care that nobody can actually do this. I can't go for a massage every day. I can't go for like a four-hour pedicure. I do like the 30-minute and I'm out thing. You know, I can't go on vacation every two weeks. I can't take a long weekend anytime I feel like it. Um so we really have to look at the basic things that we can do. And people will say things like, oh, but that's just basic needs. You should be doing that anyway. Well, yeah, that's how you take care of yourself. You know, take a shower. Take a shower at a time when you don't have to rush out the door. Take one at night, take a longer one than usual, take a bath, something where you don't have to hurry up. And you can actually just sit there for a little bit longer, even if it's five minutes longer. Um, you know, go to bed early, one or two days a week. Take care of that because your sleep really matters and it really matters for your mental health to get enough sleep. Um, go for a walk. If if things are just getting too much, you feel stressed out, just take a walk. Five minute, 10-minute walk doesn't have to be 40, it doesn't have to be an hour. You don't have to do a marathon. Just go for a walk. Quick walk around the block, shake it off a little bit, you know. Don't, you know, no phone, no music, nothing, just walk. Um I think like one of my go-tos, if my husband's going to a basketball game and my daughter, we were able to maybe like take her to one of those parents sign out things. I will get taken out and I will watch a Hallmark movie. It's just, you know, just it's something, just something small like that. Um, shutting off your phone. You know, that's something that's really important. I there are days when I just don't answer my phone and I just shut it off, put it away, and I'm done with it because I don't want to have to deal with, you know, notifications of things that really don't matter. Um so it's really about taking the pressure off yourself so you can take a breath. It's not about three hours of meditation or, you know, going on a three-month cruise. It's it's small little things you can do every single day just to tell yourself that you matter and you care about how you feel about things. You care about your own stress level. Um, so it doesn't necessarily have to be, like I said, these giant things, just small little things you can add to every day. Getting a coffee, going for an ice cream just because you had a bad day. Small things add up to really big changes.
SPEAKER_02:We'll be right back after this brief message.
SPEAKER_05:And we're back. Let's dive right in.
SPEAKER_00:Love your recommendations, Alexandra. On just finding the quiet on the daily and even fasting. You mentioned fasting from the grief, fasting from social media. Tell us a little bit more about how you do those.
SPEAKER_06:Well, quiet is really underrated. Um, it's another one of those things that people try to glamorize and maybe market a little bit more is here's a special quiet time you can go to a retreat, or here's a special app you can use for your quiet time. But it doesn't really facilitate quietness, really. Um, and quiet is scary because you have to face yourself. And let's, you know, there are parts of us we don't like, parts of us that we don't want to have to deal with. And quiet brings up all those feelings sometimes. Um, I taught a Buddhist, a Buddhism class over the summer once in uh before I finished my degree, and and it was an online class, and I had them meditate once a week. And one of the kids was like, Oh, I can't wait to do it because I'm gonna find out this mathematical and solve this mathematical problem. And I was like, oh, okay. And so when I saw their journals, he was just like, I had the worst time because this was so stressful. I couldn't even think about math. All this stuff was coming at me. It does, it really does. And it's hard to sit with yourself in quiet and um focus because what do you focus on? There are so many different things to think about. Um, and so being able to get that quiet helps you slow down your brain a little bit. And so the items start to reduce in their frequency and in their intensity too. Um, because they don't have to battle with social media. They don't have to battle with work, they don't have to battle with the TV or with music. They can just be come to the surface as they need to be, and you can deal with one at a time. Um and I think social media is something that we I'm I'm guilty of doom scrolling. I do it. And I I every night I think I'm not gonna do it. And then my daughter falls asleep and I think, we, I have, you know, 10 minutes. I'm just gonna 10 minutes turns into 30. And so getting away from that, I think is really helpful because it's it's it doesn't do anything but waste some of our time. Yes, some of the stuff is fun to look at and some of it's it's helpful. But then there are website or um, you know, content creators that do a lot for, let's say, motherhood, for example. And I look at those and I feel like a terrible person because I didn't, you know, make my daughter lunch from scratch today, or I didn't give her like a three-tiered cake for snack that was handmade or whatever. Um, so social media can be informative at times, but it can also make us feel like we're just not living up to what we should be doing. And we forget that people stage things. People will stage their children doing certain things and looking perfect and look making them look like the perfect mother. People will stage um how, you know, make them feel better. And this is the product I use to make me feel so much better. And then you try it and you're like, this is the worst. Um, so it can lead us into different directions that we may not want to go. So just putting the phone down and stopping with that, even for a week, um, if you can, an hour, a day is great because it brings you back to reality. Um, but also, you know, grief needs a break too. This is, you're gonna be with this thing forever for the rest of your life. You don't have to rush it. You know, it's like it's a long-term relationship. There is no need to rush everything at once. Um and frankly, grief probably gets bored with having to be on you all the time. It doesn't have to be serious 24 hours a day. You can have a laugh. You can go out, watch a movie, watch a TV show, do something fun. Um, you know, you're gonna be living with grief for the rest of your life. It's okay to take it out for a date night. Like it's fine. The logistics will still be there. You can deal with that tomorrow. Go out, have a break. And that actually, when you come back, it's better. It makes it better, it makes it more able to deal with the grief from a different perspective because you've relaxed, you've found a piece of quiet, you realize there's something that's been bugging you that you need to deal with, and you can, and then you do, and you can move to the next thing that's on your list. Um, so yeah, quiet is one of those really very underrated, but very necessary things that have difficulty finding in this day and age.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, thank you for that. So I realize we were you're 38 when your mother passed, and only then after then did you find love, marry, have your daughter who just turned six. And the loss of those events, or rather, the um the loss of your mother had an enormous impact on those events in unexpected ways, you say.
SPEAKER_06:It did. Yes. I, you know, you don't think about those things. You just think about the person not being there, but then you think about all the things that they're not a part of and all the ways that they would have been um integral or just influencing that moment. And so, yes, my mother died when I was 38. Um, I got married when I was 41, and I had my daughter that just a week past turning 43. Um, and so, you know, when it came to getting married, I really wanted to elope. Like why? The person who would have really, really enjoyed this in my life at least, wasn't there. So why not just elope? But um, you know, I thought there, my my husband's family, my dad really would have missed out on that, and that would have been a heartbreaking thing for me to exclude him from. So we did go ahead with the wedding, and it was um I didn't have any flowers. I didn't want any flowers because I'd been so like the house was full of flowers for so long that all I could think about was a funeral. So I didn't have any. Um, I carried a bouquet made of paper flowers instead, and we just had we had books as center pieces instead of flowers. Um, you know, dress shopping was something that I couldn't do with my mom. And she had all these plans. She always talked about all these plans about going to New York City and getting a dress. And I was like, oh, okay. So I was in for I wasn't living in Virginia, but I went to Virginia for that was where our wedding was. And so, you know, I my friends weren't there, my bridal party wasn't there, some family members were, but I didn't really want to invite them. It was a little bit stressful to invite some of them. And so I just happened to be talking about it to a neighbor of my parents who I had become friends with. And she's like, Do you mind if I come with you? And I thought about it and I said, No, I really don't. I don't mind at all. And she came and it was great. Um, but it was one of those things that you don't think about, like, who am I supposed to bring? I don't know. Um, and then, you know, I cried the whole way down the aisle, and people probably thought of, oh, it's the wedding. And it really wasn't. I was just really missing a big piece of myself that day. Um, and there are aspects of me that my husband will never get to know. He will never see me and my dad and my mom together, you know, as we used to be, um, just on a random day or on a holiday or for a birthday. So he missed out on all of that stuff. Um, so like I said, there's a piece of me he doesn't really know because of that. And I tell him about it, we talk about it, but unless you really experience it, it's not really there. You know, he knows my dad, obviously. He is we've been to my the house that my parents lived in. Um, and but while we were getting ready to sell it, so he experienced it from that point of view, but not full of life. Um, you know, so when we go to his family, I feel a little bit of a pang of like, oh, I you know, I don't have this to go to anymore. And, you know, I've talked to him about not having my family home. And he's like, well, I don't have money either because my parents aren't living in the house I grew up with. And I said, but it's it's different. My dad's an assisted living, I don't have a home to go to anymore. So I feel a little bit um disconnected, lost at sea, if you will, because I don't have that anchor anymore of that family home. And my, you know, I have my father, thank God he's still here because that that he is that anchor for the time being. And but even he feels the same way. We don't really have a home. It's just his apartment. Um, so you know, there are random experiences of me bursting out in tears and my husband having no idea what's happening. And um, one of the most random things, which wasn't, I guess, random for me, was we were watching a show. I think it was the haunting of Bly House or something like that a few years ago. And it was, it was a you know, limited series. And um, I realized in the very last episode, this whole thing was just one giant meditation on grief. And I was hysterically crying for about an hour, not from sadness and and pain, but because I really felt like they got it. And I felt like I watched my whole experience play out on the TV. And he's like, Can I do anything for you? And I said, No, this is actually a good thing. Like, this is a good release because this is exactly how it is. And so this is you're it's okay. I know I look crazy right now, but it's I'm this is really a good thing. Um, and this calendar of emotions that comes through the year, you know, I always loved my birthday. I loved September and I dread it now. I hate it. I I kind of try to forget about my birthday because the person who made it special, really special, isn't here to do that anymore. You know, my dad does, but it's not the same without both of them together. And um, so I focus on my daughter's birthday and I I overbuy, you know, I'm over consumption, I think is the thing that people don't talk about where it's that that shopping therapy, you know, like, why do you need to have a thousand lights out for Halloween? Well, because it just makes me feel better right now. And and my husband's like, oh, okay, to do what you need to do. But like there are lights everywhere. It's like a Rockefeller Center for three rainbows from Halloween until the end of January. But it makes me feel really good. And last year was a really hard year, and there were more lights than usual. So, you know, it's it's things like that that you don't really expect. And and as far as having a child, I was not at all ready for for doing that without a mother. I thought that I understood it and I, because my mom did it without her mother, so I know I had model, but oh my God. Um, you know, there was the unexplained infertility, which really was unexplained. I was 41, you know, like let's be real. But uh it took a while, it took a long time. I started the process at 39, three years to get there. And I didn't have anybody to really talk to about it who would really sit with me and talk about it for a long period of time other than five minutes. So you really need a mom at that point. Um, you know, we did the plan A and the nesting alone because our family wasn't there, but my mom would have come up. She would have come to visit, she would have even moved to be, you know, near us. Um, you know, I was really looking for stories after my daughter was born of my infancy and of my mom and what she did. What did she go through this? What how does she deal with that? And my dad could provide some context, but um, it was really my mom that I was looking for at that point. So that was really hard. And um, the holidays. The first Christmas was horrendous. I I cried, sobbed for a week every day for a week. And I just like my father did his best to try and calm me down, but I was hysterical because this was too much to have this little thing and not have my mom there to celebrate that. Like that Christmas, she would have really, you know, really just the gifts would have been like cascading through the doorway. Um, and so I do find that overcompensation to kind of make up for that, that lack of of her at holidays and birthdays, where I buy too much for my daughter because I'm making up for I don't want, I want it to be really special for her not to notice this gaping hole that I feel. She doesn't feel it. She doesn't know. She never met her, so it's okay in that respect. But yeah, there are lots of things you don't anticipate. Um, and I do talk to my daughter about my about her all the time, my my mother all the time. And so she's comfortable, she talks about her, but then she brings up questions about death too. So it's like, here's this four, five, and six-year-old who's trying to process this thing. And I'm thinking, am I is this am I doing too much talking about it? Is this okay for her? Um But yeah, then there's just sort of the daily, you know, oh, I need to call my mom. Oh, I I can't. And just just things like that that that crop up in in life that my husband is like, okay. So he just sort of sits there and that's really his response is like, okay, just do what you need to do. Um, so yeah, it was not not something that you really think about. You think about just them being not being there in the broader terms, but the small little things that you forget that they could have been a part of that they're not anymore.
SPEAKER_04:That's powerful. Wow. Alexandra, what transition kind of shifting to to couples? You mentioned, you know, you you married. Do you have advice for you know spouses, partners who where one has had a loss uh and they're like could be a parent, someone else, um to keep that connection strong. You know what I mean? Because that can be a it can be a wedge, it can be a stressor that they tuck away, or what you know, can they say what what tips or advice do you have for couples, I guess, who are going through that one of them is really creepy.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, I think again, kind of going back to that talk last, listen, more thing is really helpful. People just want presents, they just want you to sit and be with them. You might not understand everything, and you don't have to. Um, but you do have to be willing to support them and you you can't try and brush them through it. Um, you know, you see a lot of things in Hollywood where, oh, people will say in the in the storyline, it's been a year, you should go date, or it's been a year, you should go do this, or it's been a year, you should be over it. That's that's a really unrealistic way of looking at it. And so we can't put that in our relationships. It's been a year. You shouldn't feel this way at Christmas every every year. It's been a year, you shouldn't have to worry. You know, your birthday's coming up. Why is it such a big deal that she's not there? Um, or her birthday, or your that person's birthday is coming up. Why do you mean you still want to buy them a card? Um, so I think the willingness to accept the ways in which that person has to make room for that presence. Um, in the book, I call it setting a place at the table. And so really being willing to accept that there is going to be an empty place at the table for the rest of your relationship or the rest of that person's life and the rest of your life with them, and being willing to accept that that's that person's gonna be there and that grief is gonna be also a new part of your marriage. It's it's there. You can't excise it. It's just, it's always gonna show up. Um, and I think also a willingness to change, to change with your partner. We always you know, talk about being willing to change anyway in a relationship as people grow, because life, you know, you mature, but grief really forces growth in a lot of different directions. Um and, you know, your partner's priorities may change in a way that you had not planned for. You know, they may have, maybe they're in finance and they're like, I want to go be a park ranger now because I want to spend more time at home. And I don't feel like I get that with this current job. So I'm gonna, I want to go do this, and it's not gonna bring the same amount of money. Well, you have to talk about that. You have to understand where they're coming from and figure out how if that's gonna work, how it's gonna work. And if it can't, how can you facilitate that need still without losing something, you know, that financial footing? Um, lifestyles are going to change. You may want to do certain things at certain times of the year now that you didn't before. Um, you know, um people may want children when they didn't want them before. And that's something that's a big thing to think about. They may want more, as a friend of mine once put it, they may want more life in their life. And, you know, relationships make have to come to a very crucial decision-making point if you, you know, if this was the foundation of your relationship, we're just gonna be the two of us, or we're not gonna have children. Do I want to do this? Can I do this for my partner, or is this something that unfortunately we have to move apart because of it? Um so and having that understanding that things are going to change unexpectedly. Um, and you have decisions to make for yourself and for yourself as a couple. Um, and understand that you cannot fix anything that's going on. Um, I think especially for a male partner, you can't fix your wife. You cannot fix your spouse. And you just have to be there. And that's hard for it's been hard for both men and women to not fix stuff. Um, but you have to live with it. It's a lifestyle now. It's not a problem to be solved, it's a lifestyle change. And I think one of the last things is really just to be aware of the grief calendar and aware that there are certain times of year where you may need to step it up a little bit more and be a lot more empathetic, more compassionate than you may have had to be in the past, like holidays, for example, or birthdays. You may need to start bringing it up to 150% for a while. So that person feels special in the way that they that their lost person made them feel, and that they don't, they have that gaping hole now that just reminds them of how much love they did lose. So you can't replace it and you can't fill that, but you can try and bring some of that specialness to them in ways at certain times of year. And understand that even like the death anniversary, that person's probably going to be miserable, whether they realize it or not. You know, every March I think, why am I so tired? Why can't I do anything this week? It's always March. It's always that week. And so I, you know, my my husband has to be like, okay, um, like I'll just do, you know, we'll get takeout tonight, don't worry about it. Um, or we'll just do this, or like you go rest, something like that. So it's um a lot of of being attuned, more attuned than you may have thought you needed to be in the in the relationship. So it's kind of like taking everything, but like adding it to a next level, leveling up in a way.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, very helpful tips. Thanks.
SPEAKER_00:And before we start our wrapping up questions, Dave and Alexander, I just wanted to ask you uh a slight transition. Um, Terry Real talks about this a bit of from his relational life therapy. It's known, he's known for sharing the belief that none of us gets everything we want from our marriage partner. So he states that grief is an important, inevitable skill. Digesting grief is a hallmark of a mature person in a functional long-term relationship. I think that's just so interesting. For instance, I would love to have long drawn-out conversations with my Ben. My Ben, not so much. That interests him, Nada. So Terry suggests that we grieve what we don't have and embrace all that we do. What do you think about grief inside of a good marriage?
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, that's that's a that's a tough question. That's a big, a big one to to think about. Um, you know, everything has good days and bad days. Um, and I think about my parents, my parents' marriage, and um, you know, they definitely went through ebbs and flows, and there were jobs that were lost and and family members who were who died, and um, you know, I guess kind of communicating that that need that that thing that's missing, maybe not to the point where you you're like, I need it, I desperately need it, and I'm gonna wallow in this forever, but just being able to discuss that this little thing is maybe missing from my life, or I lost this job, and you know, this is making me feel this way about it. Um, not because you're trying to fix it, but just because you you do want the person to know what you're going through so that they understand where you are, um, and not becoming a victim of it either, but just, you know, this thing's making me really sad today. Um and knowing that we sometimes get really focused on the process of how we get certain things, and we forget that the result is what matters. And there are many different ways to get that thing that's not gonna look the way you thought it should or that you wanted it to look. You know, like I did not at all envision about having to deal with IVF to have my daughter. And that sounds like a small thing, but it really is. And you think about, oh, okay, this whole experience is going to be different from that respect. So I have to grieve that aspect of it and really like, okay, but I'm still gonna get hurt. I still get to be a mom, maybe not the way that, you know, would have been more fun and less stressful, but I still get to, I still get to do, I still get to do that thing. So um, you know, I I may not, I had to, my academic career kind of crashed and burned because of, you know, grief and life changes. And okay, so I don't get that, but I'm still getting to write books in a total in a different context, but I get to do the thing that I still want to do. It just looks different than I had anticipated or planned on. So I think we have to kind of allow the process to be different and accept that the result can still be a version of what we wanted. It may not be the fullness of it, but that's kind of part of compromise. You know, one person brings something to the table, you bring something to the table, and you make the third thing that satisfies both of you in that way. Um and so honestly, having a good enough friendship where you can talk to a person and be honest about that. Um, and that in that relationship, you know, wanting to hang around with that person, even despite the fact that you may not have this thing. Um, you know, I might not be living where I really wanted to live, but this is a great place. I love Portland. I'm happy that we moved here. Maybe not where I thought I'd be, but you know what? It's got everything I need. And it's a different version of what of what I thought my, you know, late 40s going into my 50s was going to be. But this is pretty good. I can accept this. I like this. I like what's, I like the path that it's moving toward. Um, so I think there's a lot of acceptance in there, you know, moving through those five stages we talked about. And that fifth, that sixth thing that Dr. uh David Kessler brought in, which was finding the meaning in it, which is the important thing that can help you not get stuck on the process that you're missing or the thing that you didn't get exactly the way you wanted, but finding the meaning in what you do have and how that can still work for you and provide you with a very beautiful, full life.
SPEAKER_02:We'll be right back after this brief message.
SPEAKER_05:And we're back. Let's dive right in.
SPEAKER_00:Dave, anything you'd add on on finding the good and focusing on the good in marriage?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I I do like that. That acceptance. You know, Goblin and others have talked about we like about 80%, you know, of characteristics and things in our marriage. There's about 20% maybe that bugs us or or wishes was a little bit different, or they the their personality was this way instead of that way, or whatever that is. But I like the the acceptance and those who focus on the 80% instead of dwelling on the on the 20% that can't change, won't change, or not willing to change, whatever that that is. But uh Alexander, I like that. That yeah, focusing on what you do enjoy. And this isn't you know, Portland Main, this isn't what I maybe thought was, but hey, I can find the good in this. Look at these things that I that I do love about where I'm at, where physically, mentally, spiritually, yeah, whatever that journey is. So that's that's really helpful. Thank you. Well, um, Alexandra, as we um in it first, I want to talk about your resources, right? In addition to your book that is really a griever's guide for for creating a self-care plan, you also have a social media presence. Can you tell us where our friends here can find you most easily and and we'll add that to our show notes?
SPEAKER_06:Sure. Um, I'm mostly on Instagram. Um, and so my handle is at Alexandra Carroll, but there's no E. So it's A-L-X A-N-D-R-A-C-A-R-R-O-L-L because there is already an Alexandra Carroll. And um, so you know, beggars can't be a chooser, so I just decided to get rid of that letter. Um, and so and that's really I so Instagram is really kind of my home base. Um, I I'm kind of trying to follow my own, you know, advice about not being on social media too much um and having that take over. So Instagram is where I try to do a lot of stuff. I have a Facebook page as well for AN Carol and a website of the same name, ancarol.com, which is woefully out of date. So I do have to update that. Um so hopefully people can have patience with the content. Um, and I'm on Pinterest as well, uh, because I I put a lot of stuff on there that um relates to what I've talked about, ways to volunteer, ways to find self-care, ways to give yourself a break, ways to journal, different things like that that I bring up in the book as ways to approach grief and healing. Um and so that is also Alexandra Carol minus the E on Pinterest as well.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, yes. And for our listeners, we will add those to our show notes, all of those links and social media uh handles. So please check those out. Uh we'd like to end with a couple of questions that we ask all of our guests.
SPEAKER_03:Um first, Alexander, what what do you feel like is the key to a stronger marriage connection?
SPEAKER_06:Not killing your spouse. Um, but seriously, um oh um active listening. I mean, really listening, not just listening to say what you want to say, but listening to hear exactly where they are and responding to that need and what they're saying to you, even if you don't want to hear it. Um that willingness to grow that I I mentioned in the context of grief, really being willing to grow and change as a person and mature, um, and take advantage of opportunities that don't feel like opportunities when your spouse may be pointing out some things to you that you are like, wait a minute, I'm fine. Um, but these might be places where we can grow. And somebody else is reflecting that to us. And um, you know, we do have to look at ourselves every now and again. It's easy to look at other people. Um, but willingness to grow together, willingness to let the other person grow too and not be scared that they're growing away from you because they want to do something different. Um, and I think honestly, having a really good friendship, um, just being really good friends helps because you can talk to people in a way that you don't take everything personally. You know, you you can be observant in ways that um doesn't cut too hot too much. Um, and honestly, laughing at the absolute absurdities that happen in life because life is really stressful enough, but then there are stupid things that happen, really ridiculous things that happen that you can't do anything but laugh about because what else are you gonna do to get through that? And some of the absurdities are stressful, some of them come in the context of something that's really traumatic and hard. But sometimes there are things to laugh about, and you have to have a good laugh now and again because otherwise it's too much to bear.
SPEAKER_04:Man, amen. Well said. What about uh a takeaway message? We call it our takeaway of the day. Do you have a take-home message you want our listeners to remember from our discussion today?
SPEAKER_03:I dropped my note for that, I wrote that down somewhere. Um, what was my takeaway for the day?
SPEAKER_06:Oh, yes, okay. So a takeaway for the day. I think um maybe there are three three things when it comes to grief and in particular, particularly having uh to deal with grief in a relationship. Um patience. Everybody needs a lot of patience because this does not end. Um it's it's like a lifelong thing, and so the more patience you have with it, the better off it might um work for everybody involved. Um again, that willingness to grow and change, to let grief grow or let grief give give give grief permission to to change you a little bit. Um and for your spouse to or your partner to be able to change with you or let you change and not be afraid of that. Um and I think lastly, that to remember that grief really isn't pain, it feels like it. It's really love. It's love that has lost its home, it doesn't have a physical place to land anymore. And to remember that what your partner is going through is really trying to handle an enormous amount of love that no longer has a place to live, and it is bursting them at the seams because they're now housing it, and it's a lot to take on, and it can rip you apart in uncertain days when that love is just it's it's too big and doesn't have a place to go at that moment.
SPEAKER_04:Wow, grief is love that has lost its home. I have never that's profound. Uh thank you, Liz. What about you? What's your takeaway of the day?
SPEAKER_00:Besides that one right there. Yeah, yeah, it's just powerful, all right. You know, I I think we can never underestimate the power of just showing up, of just being there, attending the funeral, sitting with someone who's crying, holding hands. That's really a lovely Alexandra. Just just being there and talking less, listening more. You know, I love that acronym WAIT W-A-I-T. I have it everywhere. Why am I talking? Um, to remind myself that. And Dave, what is your top takeaway from our conversation today with Dr. Alexandra Carroll?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so helpful. So many just practical tips, the stories, the examples you've opened up and shared. Thank you so much for for your sharing your story and then so many helps. It's kind of the so what, and you've shared so many so what's and what's next tips. I think uh I had never heard of the so much, but the one that sticks out is the grief uh calendar, a grief calendar, and then the atunement. I love that word, attunement. Just being in tune. Mother's Day, Father's Day, birthdays, these anniversary anything that uh that I need to be aware of, or my partner or whoever, I need to be aware of what's happening in this person's uh life. Yeah, that is um I'll I'll just gonna shout out Liz right here. She's so aware of of things that are happening, she's so thoughtful and mindful. I don't know if she keeps it on a calendar somewhere. I need to do better of that, of just noticing, being attuned, awareness of what's what's going on in another person's life. But love the idea of a grief calendar. Thank you.
SPEAKER_06:Well, thank you.
SPEAKER_04:Well, Alexandra, you've been uh more than generous with your time, with your expertise. Um, thank you. Thank you, thank you sincerely for having me with us today.
SPEAKER_06:It was a wonderful experience. Thank you so much. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. All right, friends, that does it for us here at Stronger Marriage Connection. We will see you next time. Thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER_00:And remember, it's the small things that create a stronger marriage connection. We'll be seeing you soon.
SPEAKER_04:Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us a favor and take a second to subscribe to our podcast and the Utah Marriage Commission YouTube channel at Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the show. Be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment, and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at StrongerMarriageWife and Facebook at Stronger Marriage. So be sure to share with us which topics you loved, which guests we should have on the show next. If you want even more resources to improve your marriage or relationship connection, visit strongermarriage.org where you'll find free workshops, e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys, and more. Each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, Rex Polanis, and the team at Utah State University, and you, our audience. You make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions, and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.