Stronger Marriage Connection
It's often said that marriage takes work. The Stronger Marriage Connection podcast wants to help because a happy marriage is worth the effort. USU Family Life Professor Dr. Dave Schramm and Clinical Psychologist Dr. Liz Hale talk with experts about the principles and practices that will enhance your commitment, compassion, and emotional connection.
More than ever before, marriages face obstacles, from the busyness of work and daily hassles to disagreements and digital distractions. It's no wonder couples sometimes drift apart, growing resentful, lonely, and isolated.
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Stronger Marriage Connection
How To Navigate Sexual Mismatch And Rebuild Intimacy | Jordan Rullo | #154
We sit down with Dr. Jordan Rullo to unpack why sexual desire often misfires, how brakes and gas shape intimacy, and why responsive desire is just as healthy as spontaneous desire. We share practical tools to manage mismatch, avoid pressure, and build trust through small rituals.
• Brake and gas model of sexual function
• Causes of low desire across biology, psychology, relationship, culture
• Spontaneous versus responsive desire explained
• Desire discrepancy as a perpetual problem and acceptance
• Why scheduling sex backfires and scheduling connection works
• Avoidant dynamic and how rejection spirals happen
• Consensual unwanted sex and bodily autonomy
• When to involve medical providers and rule out health issues
• Friendship, trust, and Gottman’s Magic Six Hours
• Weekly State of the Union and sexual communication habits
• Prioritization, maintenance plans, and recommended resources
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Dr. Dave Schramm:
Dr. Liz Hale:
Let's face it, sexual intimacy can be one of the trickiest parts of any relationship. Today, Dr. Liz and I sit down with Jordan Rulow, who helps us unpack why intimacy can sometimes feel frustrating or out of sync. She shares relatable examples, including her gas and breaks metaphor for desire, and offers practical advice on navigating differences in sex drive, overcoming common barriers, and improving communication and connection. Dr. Jordan Rulow is a board certified clinical health psychologist, certified sex therapist and supervisor through the American Association of Sex Educators, Counselors and Therapists, and certified Gottman Therapist. She's an adjunct assistant professor in the Department of Clinical Psychology at the University of Utah, has a private practice in Salt Lake City, founded www.jordanrulo.com, and teaches online sexual health courses at sexual health solutions.com. Her areas of specialty include couples and sexual health, sexual dysfunction, and sexual health related to menopause and cancer. She presents on sexual health nationally and internationally and has published over two dozen peer-reviewed articles on the topic of sexual health. We hope you enjoy the show. Hey there, friends. Welcome to another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection Podcast. I'm Dr. Dave here at Utah State University, alongside Dr. Liz Hale, our therapist. We are bringing you the very best that we have in research and resources, along with a few tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. Okay, Liz, today we are tackling one of the toughest topics for couples, at least the research. A lot of the research shows that the research that I've done, uh newlywed studies, all kinds of research is showing that one of the biggest challenges for couples, whether you're married for six days or 60 years, and that is sexual intimacy.
SPEAKER_00:And it changes, right? It changes over the time, too.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. It does. It does. It changes over time. Our guest to discuss this important topic today is the one and only Jordan. Rulo, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I'm excited for our discussion today. Uh, Jordan, first, can you tell us a little bit of just your background, your interest in sexual health, sexual intimacy? Why, why do you do what you do?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I um, so I actually went to undergrad at Indiana University, which is where the Kinsey Institute is. And I didn't know that at the time. I'm like 19 years old. Uh, and so I started doing research just to get some research experience at the Kinsey Institute. And my first research experience was entering sexual pain data, but in the institute, so I'd walk in the institute and there's just like photos of erotica and statue, like erotic statues. I'm like, what? And like an 18, 19, 20 years old. I'm like, this is amazing. And so I thought it was the coolest job. And then I learned that people can actually go to school to do clinical research, sex research on sexual health. And I'm like, this, you can get paid for this. This can be a job. This is the coolest. And then that was it. That was my trajectory. And I uh got into I became a certified sex therapist and then realized that you can only really do good sex therapy if you can also do good couples therapy, because most sexual health issues are relational issues. And so then I became a certified Gottman couples therapist, and now I'm in private practice, and I only see couples for whom sexual health is a primary concern. And that is my jam and it is my favorite thing to work on, and I cannot believe the job that I have. I just love what I do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's so cool. And you're always busy, Jordan. We need uh we need duplications of Jordan Rullo. That would be so nice.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Super busy. And I mean, what that says is there are a lot of couples that have sexual health concerns and sexual relationship concerns.
SPEAKER_00:I've tried you a couple of times for couples and and you've been booked, but we're gonna keep trying. We'll get on your wait list, okay? I think low desire is often called the most common sexual health concerns, especially for women. Uh from your work and your research, what are the most surprising or maybe even underappreciated root causes you see behind low desire? And it's not just women, I suppose, but mainly women.
SPEAKER_01:Not just women. Um, I would uh absolutely say from the research and in my practice, predominantly it's women versus men who come in with low desire. But that being said, I mean, we can have a large conversation about uh the stigmatization of sexual health and how women are probably gonna be more likely to say they have low desire than men, men are, because men in society, I think, are often told like you're supposed to be virile and have passion. And so if a man has low desire, that feels incredibly shameful. Not that it doesn't feel shameful for women, but I often think men are gonna be less likely to uh admit or endorse that they're experiencing that. But if we back up to your question, I kind of want to do a little bit of a 30,000-foot view before I go into the more specifics. Uh, so there's this really cool model called the dual control model. It does not sound fun, but it actually is really cool. And it's based on this idea that for everyone when it comes to their sexual function, your sexual function is comprised of a brake pedal and a gas pedal. And so, in order for you to have sexual function, and when I say sexual function, in order for you to have sexual desire, but it's not just desire, arousal, orgasm, in order for these systems of your sexual health to work, you need to have more on your gas than on your brake. And so when you ask this question of what are the main causes of low sexual desire, really I want to reframe that question of what are the main things that hit the brake pedal? Uh so main things that hit the brake pedal when couples come in to see me, it could be physiological factors. So maybe you're on an SSRI and antidepressants are known to have some really significant sexual side effects. Uh, other physiological factors, maybe your health is declining, maybe you have a recent injury, maybe you are just tired. I'll ask my couples at the end of the day. So at the end of the day, if someone handed you a platter of sex versus a platter of sleep, which platter are you going to take? And they're like, oh, I'm gonna take in the sleep platter, then yeah, fatigue is probably hitting that brake for you. So so as you're kind of thinking about uh the listeners, what are the things that are hitting your brakes? First of all, ask yourself, okay, are there physiological, are there biological factors that are hitting that brake pedal? Then the second question is, are there psychological factors that are hitting that brake pedal? Anxiety, anxiety is such a uh a dampener of sexual desire. Because when you're anxious, you are scanning the environment for threats. And if you're scanning the environment for threats, that does not mean that your body is relaxed. And if your body's not relaxed, then it's not gonna allow for blood flow, it's not gonna allow for sexual interest. So if you're super anxious and everything is a potential threat, that is gonna shut down desire. Depression. If you're depressed, not only is your energy low, but your motivation is low. And things that used to feel pleasurable, they don't feel that pleasurable anymore. And that's sex fits in that category. So anxiety, depression, body image. Uh, if you're not feeling sexy, it's gonna be hard to want to be sexual. And you know, Liz, you mentioned aging, right? Especially for women. True for men as well, but especially for women, um, like our bodies change as we age. You hit perimenopause, you hit menopause, your body looks different. So that may be impacting sexual desire. So, again, if you're gonna look at physiological factors that are hitting those brakes, take a look at the psychological factors that are hitting those brakes, and then we get to the couple stuff, the relational factors that hit those breaks. Uh, most simply put, if you don't like your partner, you probably don't want to have sex with them. Um, but also if there's just conflict in the relationship, if your partner has sexual health concerns, so let's say you have a partner who has uh low desire or erectile dysfunction or premature ejaculation, the research actually shows, and I see this in my practice, you then are more likely to have sexual health concerns if your partner has a sexual health concern. And then the last uh factor you want to look at is just sociocultural, societal factors. Uh, you know, like I mentioned before, maybe society says that your body shouldn't be this way, your body should respond this way. Well, that's absolutely going to bring in probably some shame and embarrassment and shut you down, and and that may reduce desire. So, so many different things that hit the brake pedals. Uh, oftentimes couples come in and uh I'll say and they say, you know, I've low desire, one of them has low desire, and I'll ask, um, what have you tried so far? And they typically always say they've tried stuff to put on the gas pedal. Ah, we've tried date nights and we've tried lingerie and we've brought in toys. But here's the thing that I want every couple to know if you start with the gas pedal, it's probably not gonna help. Because if we think about this brake pedal, gas pedal analogy as a car, like imagine this is your car and you have your foot all the way on the brake and your brake is pushed to the to the ground. What is going to happen to your car?
SPEAKER_00:Stays put.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, not gonna go anywhere. Maybe the engine rubs a little, but it's not gonna go anywhere. And let's say you put your foot on the gas, what's gonna happen to the car?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I guess you're gonna surge forward a little bit. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, maybe a little bit, but you still have your foot on this brake.
SPEAKER_00:So now it's gonna be foot in the brakes, so not too much. Yeah, put stuff on the brakes.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. You hear the revving. So put the foot on the brake, car's not gonna go anywhere. Then add some gas, car's gonna rev a little but not go anywhere. So, what this tells me and tells us is the gas pedal is pretty irrelevant when you have so much weight on the brake pedal. So when I ask couples what are the what are the things that you've tried with desire, when they tell me they've tried gas stuff, but the brake is on the ground, gas stuff is irrelevant. So we really got to shift and go, okay, wait, let's set the brake, let's set the gas aside, let's take a look at the brake, what's on the brake pedal? Let's remove as much as possible off that brake pedal. And then once your brake is lifted up a little bit, then we can start look at gas pedal things. Then we can start to look at date nights and lingerie and toys. So I think kind of going back to your question, there's so many different factors that can impact desire. And that's maybe the answer. You said what are the more unique or more uncommon factors? I would say the more uh uncommon thing is people think it's one thing. Oh, my desire is low for this reason, but it's multifactorial. It is a perfect storm of many, many different things that fit in those four different categories. And then not only is it the perfect storm of those things, but it's also the perfect storm of that balance that there is more on the brake than there is on the gas. So you've got to try to first work with the brake, remove as much as possible, and then you can play with the gas.
SPEAKER_00:I think that's a brilliant idea.
SPEAKER_01:Very long answer to your simple question.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. You have to really be a scientist of rules, don't you, Jordan?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yeah. The assessment session is I've got a big whiteboard in my office, and it really is let's go through all of these areas biological, psychological, relational, sociocultural, and let's just put down everything on the brakes. And then we'll take a look at the whiteboard and go, okay, of all these 45 different things that are hitting your brakes, what are the things that have the greatest weight? And we'll circle those. All right, that is the start of the treatment plan. We're gonna work on trying to remove those as much as possible.
SPEAKER_00:That's brilliant. That's I love that. How do you how do you know, Jordan, when low desire is simply normal versus a more of a clinical issue that deserves some further professional attention?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, that is such a great question. Uh, I'm gonna go into another little bit of a spiel to answer that question. There, there are actually two types of desire. And if any of us were lucky to actually have sex education that talked about desire and sexual function and pleasure, we may have learned about one of these, but I but most of us have never heard about both of these. So the first type of desire, the one that some of us may have heard of, or or this is the one that we absolutely see in the movies and the media, is called spontaneous desire. And this is that type of desire where you have that uh that internal drive, that internal craving, and just spontaneously you're like, oh, I really want to have sex right now. So spontaneous desire. I described this one, this is a microwave. Like you put the food in, you hit a couple buttons, beep-bit beep, and it's hot. Like this is quick. So spontaneous desire. And again, you see this in the movies and the media, they show spontaneous desire. But the second type of desire, which is equally important, that we do not learn about, is called responsive desire. And responsive desire looks like this: you are sexually neutral. Sex is not on your mind, you're not thinking about it. But the right ingredients are in place, like that mix of brake pedal, gas pedal, that allow you to be open to sex. And so maybe those right ingredients are you've got good energy, there's privacy, you're feeling emotionally connected to your partner, your partner initiates sex, and you're like, huh. Well, I wasn't thinking about it, it wasn't on my mind, but uh yeah, I could be responsive, I could be open to it. And then once the touching actually gets started, the body gets aroused, and then the mind goes, Oh, yeah, this is nice. Why don't we do this more often? This is nice. So that's responsive desire. And the way I describe that, like that is a that's a slow cooker, that's a crock pot. The ingredients get put in and it takes some time for them to simmer, and then eventually over time, they get hot. So we got spontaneous desire, that's that microwave, and then we've got responsive desire, that is that slow cooker or that crock pot. Okay, so now let's go back to your question of how do you know if your desire is just kind of normal and normal's hard. It's a hard word to use, but how do you know if it's if this is really a clinically diagnosable sexual health concern or not? This is where one of the first questions I ask my couples when we're in that assessment phase is I want to hear about their spontaneous versus their responsive desire. Because most of the couples that come into my office, they are expecting that their desire should be spontaneous. And it is, and if it is not spontaneous, then they have a problem. And then I share, wait, wait, wait, there's a second type of desire that's equally important. It's called responsive. And I'll explain what responsive is. And a large percent of time, once I explain responsive desire, individuals who are in my office will go, oh yeah, yeah, I have that. Okay. Well, if you have one of these, either spontaneous or responsive, and of course you can have a combination of both, but if you have one of these, then this is not a clinically diagnosable sexual health concern. If you have one of these, but so many couples, uh particularly women and men for that, for that matter, demand or expect, I think expect's a better word, expect that to truly have good desire, it needs to look like the microwave. You should have good microwave desire. Nope. Good desire could be either microwave or crop pot or a combo of both. And if you have one of these, then you do not have a clinical diagnosable sexual health concern. If you do not have either of these, and you have not had either of these for six months, that is a clinically diagnosable sexual health concern. So oftentimes when couples come into therapy, really it is just some good sexual psychoeducation and learning, oh wait, I do have desire. It's response, my main desire is uh responsive desire. Okay, great. Now we have a larger discussion of if your partner's a microwave and you're a crock pot, how can we manage these two? And how can you two get the same language and find a different way to navigate around the fact that you the way you each approach sexuality is different?
SPEAKER_00:Very good. Well, you took something rather complicated and made it so simple. Jordan, thank you very much.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, Jordan, I love the way that you're explaining all of this and just very practical and easy to understand uh ways. It's so helpful.
SPEAKER_02:We'll be right back after this brief message. And we're back. Let's dive right in.
SPEAKER_03:Um, desire mismatch, right? We're talking a little bit about that. That can be one of the most common, probably one of the most probably frustrating uh experiences that couples face when they're when they're dealing with this. What do you consider the most helpful way partners can approach that mismatch, especially when one partner feels um you know pressured or ashamed?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Okay. Got lots of things to share on this topic. Um, but that's a really great follow-up question because it relates to this microwave crockpot. Sometimes couples will come in and say, yeah, we have a sexual desire mismatch, which just to simply define that, meaning one partner has higher desire than the other. Uh and it's it's not actually a desire discrepancy where one partner has higher desire than the other. It is simply one partner is microwave and one partner is crockpot. And so there is not a mismatch in their interest or level and desire. It is just that they approach their sexual desire differently. They respond in their sexual desire differently. So it's having that discussion and realizing, oh, well, you're a microwave, so this is how you work, and you're a crock pot. So we need to figure out what ingredients need to be in place to get the to get that crock pot to simmer. Uh so sometimes it is simply a microwave versus crock pot. It is different, and there we have a communication, we talk about it, and then we figure out what ingredients need to be in place for the crock pot. So that could be one possibility. But sometimes it's not just a microwave versus crock pot. It really is a discrepancy in desire, where regardless of whether one's a microwave or one's a crock pot, one partner just simply wants sex more than the other. So if that is the case, and that is how it has always been, and when I say that's how it's always been, when I do my assessment with couples, I want to know one of the main questions I ask is when did this start? So if they say I have low desire or a desire discrepancy developed, when did this start? It's a key question. Was something going on at that time? Did you discover your partner, a partner having your partner having an affair? Is that what kickstarted this? Is this when you first started? Did you have your first child? Did a health condition start? Was this the start of menopause? So I want to know when did this first start? Uh so if there wasn't some major triggering event and this was just kind of a natural decline that happens when you know couples get together, you no longer have that honeymoon phase, that first 12 to 36 months, and then you go into what I call sweatpants phase. So if this is just kind of a natural decline to sweatpants phase, then this is probably your more kind of natural level of you and your partner, this is your natural level of discrepancy. It's not caused by some sort of triggering event. So this is your natural level of discrepancy. I use a Gottman term to help couples understand this. Um, this is called a perpetual problem. So Gottman in his research, uh, and that for those of you who are listening, if you don't know who Gottman is, famous uh marriage researcher and he's followed couples for decades. But what he's found is that most problems that couples have are called perpetual problems. Actually, in fact, 69% of problems that couples have are perpetual problems, meaning they will never get solved because they're due to some sort of lifestyle or personality factor. So, if, for example, if your partner is always on time and you are always late, it's probably gonna always be that way. If you were always very neat and your partner is always very cluttery, and that's how you two have always been before you ever met, that's probably not gonna change. And so that fits in this perpetual problem category. You are not going to fundamentally change your partner's personality or the way they live their lifestyle or if they're more on time or more cluttery. So if this is a perpetual problem, then you learn to adaptively cope with it. You have to accept that, hey, this is the person I married, or this is a person I'm in a long-term relationship with, this is their personality, this is what I'm signing up for. But then you learn to adaptively cope with it. And desire discrepancy fits in that category. It is a perpetual problem. Your partner may just naturally have a higher level of desire than you, and that is part of their biological makeup, and that is not going to change unless there is some major like health issue or maybe aging, it can kind of bridge that gap a little bit. But that fits in that 69% of perpetual problems. So if it's a perpetual problem, one, you learn to accept, okay, this is a difference that we have. And then two, you learn how to adaptively cope with it. And that is where communicating about sexual wants, needs, desires. Uh, maybe you're maybe you're scheduling, not sex. I never tell couples to schedule sex. If you schedule sex, that adds a ton of pressure that is unnecessary. What I do recommend is you schedule a time to connect. And that connection could be hugging, cuddling, it could be talking, it could be playing a game. You get to decide in the moment when you're after you schedule that time of, hey, we've scheduled this time. What do we want to do in this time? So maybe that is a scheduling connection to make it a priority. Um, so those are examples of ways to actively cope. You accept, hey, this is a perpetual problem. We're not gonna solve this, but can we find strategies to try to bridge this gap so it works better for both of us?
SPEAKER_03:Man, so very uh helpful. Let me a follow-up question to that, maybe Jordan. What are there common mistakes? What are couples when they're trying to fix these desire differences? Sometimes we'll keep doing something that's not working, but we just do it more, or we'll become silent. We have this. Ah, what what mistakes are couples making that need they need to hear it or listening to this podcast?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yes, yes, yes. One, which goes back to what I said just a moment ago, one of the most common mistakes that I see that's kind of heartbreaking is couples will schedule sex. And I have seen way too many couples where they have been told on the advice of a like a therapist to schedule sex, and then they say, Well, I guess we have to do this. Our therapist told us we have to do this, and so they're having sex once a week or twice a week, even though they do not want it, or one partner really doesn't want it, but we're supposed to do this, this is supposed to keep us connected. And then over time, typically the partner who does not want the sex uh starts to get really resentful. Uh like I feel like I've been pressured or made to do this when I haven't wanted to for so long. And now I just kind of get like the ick. I just I feel kind of repulsed when you even want to reach out to me because like this has not felt good. And haven't you noticed that this has not felt good to me? And then the other partner, the one who's wanted sex more, the higher desire partner, they also feel awful because they're like, I don't, I'm not trying to force you to have sex. I I'm I want us to have connection. I'm doing this so we can be connected, but clearly it's actually causing disconnection. So years and years of unwanted sex because it's been scheduled and you feel like you have to do it, can be so incredibly damaging. So I would say that's one major mistake. The other major mistake is uh let's say you're the higher desire partner and you initiate sex and the lower desire partner says, no, no, thank you, or however they say it, or I'm tired, I have a headache, or whatever it might be. And um, so eventually over time, you have initiated so many times that you are just tired of getting rejected. So you say, you know what, I'm just not gonna initiate anymore. You tell your partner who has a lower desire, you just come to me. When you want to have sex, you just come to me. But here's what happens: if the higher desire partner just stops initiating sex and puts it on the lower partner, you just come to me. The lower partner, for whatever reason, is not interested in sex, so the lower desire partner is not gonna just automatically start initiating. So now nobody's initiating sex. And this really gnarly ripple effect happens. So no one's initiating sex, and then let that go on for longer and longer and longer, and then that ripples to the non-sexual physical connection. So now this couple stops touching and cuddling and kissing because the higher depart desire partner says, Well, if I go up and hug and kiss my partner, they're gonna think that I'm initiating sex and I don't want them to feel pressured. So I so I'm not gonna do that. And the lower desire partner says, Well, if I go up and hug and kiss and cuddle my partner or cuddle them at night, they're gonna think I'm initiating sex and I'm not, because I don't want to have sex, so I'm not gonna touch them. So now not only this couple is not having sex, but now they're not touching each other. And then this has one last ripple, and this one last ripple is into the emotional connection. So no sex, no touching, and now they're getting farther and farther apart that they say we just feel like roommates. We just feel like roommates. This is called um in the research, uh, this is called the solicitous dynamic. But the way I say this with my couples is I um I just call this the avoidant dynamic. It's an avoidant dynamic. It starts with avoiding sex and then it ripples to avoiding touch, and then it ripples to avoiding even emotional connection. And the couple says, we just feel like roommates. So I think that's a second massive mistake. One of those the most common dynamic I see with couples is this avoidant dynamic where you just say, I'm tired of uh initiating, I'm tired of feeling rejected, you do it. But if we put this in God's terms, when you say, Hey, I'm tired of this, you just initiate when you want to, you are turning away from your partner. You're turning away from your partner, you are not turning towards them. The antidote to that is to turn towards them and say, Look, I really still want to connect. And I know the way that I'm reaching out to connect isn't working for you. Can we, as teammates, figure this out together? Let's talk through this. What's a way that we can still have some level of intimacy that works for me and works for you? That is turning towards your partner. So that's the second, I would say, most common mistake. And then a third, if you can let me just keep rambling on to this question. Uh the third is let's say the higher desire partner is initiating, they feel rejected, but in feeling rejected, they pretty harshly turn away from their partner, kind of to in a way to punish their partner. Like, hey, do you want to have sex tonight? No, I don't, fine. I'm turning over and I'm just gonna just look away from you and just sleep on the other side of the bed because I'm so hurt and I'm so mad at you. When the partner who's initiating sex is told uh no, and they turn away and they punish their partner, like think about this, just rationally think about this. Do you think that increases the likelihood that the partner that you just asked for sex is gonna want to have sex with you in the future? No, it just makes it worse. So if you're the higher desire partner and your partner says no, the best thing you can do is go, oh, okay, well, thank you for telling me that. Is there another way we could connect or another way we could be intimate, or what would work for you? Not punish them, not turn away from them. Because as soon as you turn away when they say no, what they have learned is, oh, I don't get to say no. No comes with consequences. My own bodily autonomy comes with consequences, and that is incredibly damaging in a relationship. I could go on, but I would say those are probably the three most common.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Oh man, that's super helpful. Or even in that third scenario, Jordan, where now, okay, I will, but it's this guilty, you know, I have to. And then the other partners like, well, if you don't, yeah, this feels like four sex, and this is funny here.
SPEAKER_01:So uh there is this, um, there's this concept that I only just learned about, uh, I think it was like a year ago, and it has not uh been, there's not much published on it. It came from actually this uh woman's dissertation. But I read her dissertation and was like, oh, this is amazing. So this concept is called consensual unwanted sex. And uh I I had and I'll try to explain this, but I've had a lot of couples with Dave, exactly what you're describing, they've acquiesced to their partner's sexual advances. They've said, uh, okay, well, I might as well have sex even though I don't want to because my partner's gonna get mad or they're gonna turn away and I don't want to deal with those consequences. So fine, we'll just have sex. And is the lower desire partner who agreed to sex, are they consenting? I mean, yeah, they consented. They consented out of not wanting bad consequences, or they consented out of feeling like it's duty. This isn't something they genuinely felt like they wanted, but they consented out of not getting bad consequences. But it is consensual, unwanted. They consented to it, and at the same time, it was still unwanted sex. So that term consensual, unwanted sex, I find it'd be incredibly helpful to share with my couples because I will have uh couples I work with where the lower desire partner says, and I know this language is harsh, but they will say, like, yeah, I kind of feel like it has been like rape. Like, I have not wanted this. And then the, of course, the higher desire partner is like, oh my gosh, I am not a perpetrator. I feel awful. I've only wanted to do this to connect with you. So this term consensual unwanted sex really captures, I think, what's happening there. I consented and I also didn't want it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that is that's that's excellent, isn't it? Oh I like that insight. Wow, Jordan. Hmm. So, you know, you would mention women's hormones, maybe medications, life changes affecting desire. How do you help women or even a couple sort out the factors that are modifiable versus not? And when is it time to seek a medical professional?
SPEAKER_01:Uh so I would say just the way I practice, so I'm actually uh a board certified clinical health psychologist. And I got that board certification because, again, the same way when I became a sex therapist, I was like, oh, wait, I can't become a good sex therapist unless I'm a good couples therapist. And then I'm like, oh, wait, I can't be a good sex therapist unless I truly understand the health system. Because sexual function is a function of physical health. That's a large portion of it. So to be a really well-rounded sex therapist, you have to know this, the biological component. Uh, so the way I practice, again, as a health psychologist, is everyone should everyone who has a sexual health concern should see their medical provider and be talking about the sexual health concern and rule out any physiological or biological factors. Um, this is a this is especially true. Anything um erectile dysfunction, especially true with erectile dysfunction, the the penis is one of the best barometers for heart health. So anytime I work with a man, regardless of age and he's having erectile difficulties. I one of the first things in our assessment session is when is the last time you saw your medical provider? When is the last time you've seen a urologist? I need you to go do those appointments because I cannot provide you an accurate treatment plan unless you have seen a medical doctor and we've ruled out any physiological medical issues. So that is the same for every sexual health concern. Um if someone has difficulty with orgasm and it's uh, you know, they didn't before and now they do now, that could actually be a sign of something like multiple sclerosis. So sexual health concerns can actually signify overall health concerns. So the way I practice is everybody, everybody needs to be meeting with their medical provider and mentioning their sexual health concerns to rule out any other major physiological issues.
SPEAKER_00:That is exceptional advice. Thank you for that.
SPEAKER_03:Wise words. Thanks, Jordan. Jordan, the name of our podcast, Stronger Marriage Connection, you know, emphasizes this intimacy, this closeness, this wanting to be together. I'm curious, intimacy beyond sex is it's often overlooked. So are there small, reliable practices, or there are rituals that help couples maintain that emotional connection and in turn keep that desire alive?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. And um, so as the theme of this podcast, I'm going to give you a very big answer and then circle back to a very specific answer to your question. Uh so again, the type of couples therapy I do is called Gottman Method Couples Therapy. And what Gottman has shown, and he's got this great, it's my favorite book that he's written called The Science of Trust, although it is so thick and a little bit painful to read. But in the science of trust, what he talks about is uh friendship, respect, and trust. Those three things are the foundation to having a healthy sexual relationship. If you don't feel like your partner is friends with you, if you're not friends with them, it's gonna be difficult to be vulnerable enough to have a sexual relationship. If you don't feel respected, you probably don't want to have a sexual relationship with them. And if you do not trust them, again, how can you be vulnerable to have that relationship with them? So, Dave, going back to your question about the emotional intimacy, friendship, respect, and trust, which is a big part of the emotional connection. If that's not there, then we're dead in the water when it comes to sex and sexual health and sexual intimacy. That emotional piece has got to come first. I'm actually, even the research uh supports that you need to work on the emotional connection, you need to work on that foundation of friendship, respect, and trust before you can get into working on the sexual health piece. Um, so all that being said, this emotional connection, friendship, respect, and trust are core. They are core. We can't even be talking about sexual health and sexual intimacy unless these factors are in place, that foundation is in place.
SPEAKER_02:We'll be right back after this brief message. And we're back. Let's dive right in.
SPEAKER_01:Uh, one of the concepts that Gottman has that I really love is called the Magic Six Hours. And the Magic Six Hours are the six hours that you spend a week with your partner, and many of them are just tiny things, tiny little trickles you put throughout the week, but those six hours help maintain that connection. So you can Google the Magic Six Hours Gottman, but I'll tell you a few things that are on there. Uh, the one that was going to take the most amount of time is a weekly date night, a non-negotiable weekly date night date night. And when I say non-negotiable, so many couples say, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll have a date. Yeah, oh, we'll do something. And then Friday rolls around, I'm tired. Oh, let's not. No, non-negotiable. Put it in the calendar and make it a priority. So that's one of those magic six hours that takes the most amount of time. But let me give you some other examples. Uh, one is reunions and departures. So at every reunion at the end of the day, at every departure at the beginning of the day, either a six-second kiss or a 20-second hug. And so really think about this: a six-second kiss. Imagine locking lips with your partner, one 1,000, two 1,000, three one. That's actually a while. And I don't, I think most of us don't do this. You just do a peck and you're done. You do a one-second kiss. This is a meaningful six-second kiss. Put that time, add that. That's six seconds in the morning, six seconds in the evening. That's 12 seconds in the day to really uh maintain that connection. Then there's something called stress-reducing conversations. These fit in these magic six hours. A stress-reducing conversation is a daily conversation that you and your partner have. It's no more than about 20 minutes where you just get to talk about your day. You don't talk about the relationship. These aren't relationship conversations. You just talk about the stuff that's going on in your day, and your partner asks you a series of questions to just to help you relieve some stress and know that you're less alone in the stress that you're in. These are just examples of what fits in those magic six hours. And they're small. Six second kiss, 20-minute conversation, one date night a week. Uh, put all of these together and some of the things I haven't mentioned, and it ends up being a cumulative, accumulation of six hours per week. So when I do my um, when I finish treatment with a couple, we uh have a maintenance plan. So part of our last few sessions is to work on a maintenance plan. And in that maintenance plan, it's how are you gonna maintain this connection? What are the things you're gonna do every week, the small things to maintain this connection? Because again, you got to keep that foundation, friendship, respect, and trust to try to keep the gains you've created in your sexual relationship.
SPEAKER_03:So helpful. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:And if you could give couples, let's say maybe two realistic evidence-informed habits that we could all improve intimacy starting today, what would they be?
SPEAKER_01:Ooh, two evidence-informed habits. Uh well, ooh, okay. This is another, this also fits in the magic six hours, but I love it because it helps with the sexual relationship. There is something called the state of the union. This is another Gottman concept. And the state of the union is once a week, you and your partner meet, and you, it's not not necessarily very long, definitely no more than an hour, but you have, you give each other some, you ask each other some questions about the state of your union. And it starts with gratitude. Uh, what are five things over the past week that you're grateful for about your partner? So each of you share these five things, and then you ask can ask a number of questions. Uh, the questions that oftentimes I recommend my couples do are one, is there any way of unintentionally hurt your feelings over the past week? And two, how can I help you feel more loved and connected over the past week? But then I add when uh I do my maintenance plan with my couples, asking a question about their sexual relationship. How are you feeling about our sexual relationship or our sexual connection over the past week? Imagine if every week you knew you had a safe space, a dedicated space to ask each other that question. I think communicate, I don't think the research shows, and I see this in my practice, communication is one of the best, good communication is one of the best predictors of a good sexual relationship. So if every week you were asking each other that question, hey, how are you feeling about our sexual relationship this past week? It opens up the door to be able to talk about how you're both feeling and what you do need and what you would need to feel more loved and connected. So that would be, I would say, the state of the union, but specifically asking a question about the sexual relationship would be one of those key uh factors. And then the other thing, and this relates to the state of the union, is communication. Like I said a moment ago, communication, good communication and sexual communication is one of the best predictors of a good relationship and a good sexual relationship. You need to be talking about it. And I say this, and I can imagine so many listeners are like, uh-huh. Like oftentimes it's harder to talk about sex than it is to have sex. Um, because talking about sex is a skill, and most of us don't learn it. We grew up in families that either told us not to talk about it or it was silence on the topic. And so we don't learn how to talk about it. Um, I would say, get a book, one of my my favorite book, my favorite sexual health book out there is called Come As You Are. Uh, although it's written toward women, the information is evidence-based and I actually practical with toward men as well. So I would say get that book, Come As You Are. It also has a workbook and do this with your partner and talk and um read the every week, read a chapter, and then grab the workbook and do a chapter in the workbook together, and that will get you to communicating. It will be a nice guide to kind of teach you the skills to start to communicate about a topic that maybe's been hard to communicate about.
SPEAKER_00:Love it. I was just gonna ask you, what do you recommend the way I'm reading, Jordan? So I thought that might be one of your favorites. It's excellent. Thank you for that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's excellent. Jordan and I we talked about you know trying new things and scheduling uh, you know, well, you know, date nights and uh communication exercises, all that. And then all of a sudden life's gonna get busy again, and you're gonna have a soccer game, you're gonna have you know the craziness, and even you get them on their maintenance plan. Do you get couples, I guess, that it's like, oh man, we've fallen off the rails again and and come back and and see you. How how do we kind of keep this going? I guess is it's this ongoing communication? It's this Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_01:Um, it's prioritization. It is prioritization. Uh yeah, life gets busy. And how much of a priority is your relationship with your partner? It is prioritization. Uh, one example I'll give is if you uh I don't know, if you wake up and realize that your basement's flooded, you're gonna prioritize it. You are probably going to find the time during your day where you thought you didn't possibly have the time, and you're gonna figure out how to address this flood in your basement. So I think so many of us say, no, no, no, I don't have the time, I don't have the time, life is too busy. If it's a priority, you will make time, even if it's something as little as a six-second kiss in the morning at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, man, I love it. It really is. It comes down to those little things, and I like to say on here, lack of attention leads to loss of connection that you've intentionally uh doing these small little things um through staying emotionally connected in your day, sending a little text, or you know, how are things? Or you'll drift apart if if you don't wise.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think so too. Well, Jordan, I'd love to know where can listeners find out more about you and the helpful resources that you offer?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so my website is just my name. It is JordanRulow.com. And so you'll see information about my private practice, which is in uh Salt Lake City. And then I also have, for those of you who are listening who uh maybe are therapists and want to learn more about this, I teach sex therapy training to therapists. And I don't just teach it to sex therapists, I teach it to couples therapists, therapists who are not sex therapists, because one of the, you know, getting on my soapbox, I think every therapist who works with couples needs to be able to address sexual relation dynamics. And unfortunately, uh therapists who are not certified sex therapists go, oh no, it's about sex. Oh no, no, I'm gonna send you to a specialist. No, these sexual health issues are relational issues. You don't have to have special training to address with relational issues. I mean, you do need to be you need to have training as a couples therapist. But every couples therapist, every therapist should have some basic uh training information to address sexual health issues. So sexual health solutions.com, that is my um training business. So if you're a therapist and you're interested, I've got a lot of free courses you could do at sexualhealth solutions.com.
SPEAKER_00:Good for you. You're so so needed. It's really not become a you know, as a marriage abandonment therapist is not really um information. You have to really go seek it yourself. You know what I mean? You're not going to get done in school, that is for sure. And then sex therapists, they're hard, like I said, hard to get into. Hard to get into.
SPEAKER_01:There aren't many certified sex therapists. And insurance will, I don't know. I don't think I have ever ever, ever, ever come across an insurance that will pay for sex therapy.
SPEAKER_03:Hmm. Man, that is too, that's that's sad, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Uh well, Jordan, as we wrap up, we like to ask all of our guests a couple of questions. The first one is uh in honor of the name of our podcast, Stronger Marriage Connection. What do you feel like is the is a key to a stronger marriage connection?
SPEAKER_01:Uh, I would go uh so I've been referencing Gottman a lot as the type of therapy I do. Um I think Dr. Hale, you do Gottman as well. The the bottom of what's called the sound relationship house, there are nine areas that make a sound relationship. And the foundation of that house, for according to Gottman's research, is friendship. And so if you really think about your relationship and think about how you, what kind of friend you want to be, and how you like your friends to treat you and how you like to treat your friends, that like your partner is your is maybe your best friend. How do you want to talk to your best friend? How do you want to treat your best friend? What time and prioritization do you want to give your best friend? You really kind of think about that. That this is your this is friendship is the cornerstone of what kind of friend do you want to be? That is kind of a guiding value.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, love it. Absolutely. Yep, agree. Friendship is so, so critical. And then um, Jordan, another question is your takeaway of the day. Is there a take-home message you want our listeners to remember from our discussion today?
SPEAKER_01:Ooh, I would say takeaway of the day is maybe something I didn't mention, but so I'm gonna I'm gonna give a takeaway that's new. Uh, and it would be like sexual health concerns and sexual relationship concerns are absolutely treatable and can be addressed. And if you're experiencing any of these concerns in your relationship or any, like that avoidant dynamic, anything that I mentioned in this podcast today, talk to your provider, talk to your therapist, talk to your provider. And if they don't know how to help you or they seem like embarrassed or they just dismiss the conversation, then uh-uh, say, uh-uh, then refer me to someone who can help me because these issues are treatable. You deserve help, and there are people out there who are who are trained to help you.
SPEAKER_03:Wise words. Yes. Thanks so much. Liz, what about you? What's the takeaway with uh Jordan today?
SPEAKER_00:Gosh, so many things. I've copious notes here, Jordan. It's it's been lovely. Um, schedule a time to connect. I like that. You know, sometimes my couples will be the ones who choose who will say that, oh, we schedule sex and that works for us. But I love this idea. If it's coming from me, especially is how about just we schedule a time to connect? It could be cuddling, hugging, it could be playing a game, but making that a priority. And then I suppose, Jordan, things can go from there, right? Or not. But the goal is connection, whether it's a sexual connection, intimate, physical, okay, emotional. I think it's I love I love that. And Dave, what about you? What's your greatest takeaway from our interview today with Jordan?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, Jordan, so insightful. I'm gonna, I mean, we're just gonna blast this this episode out to so many. It can be so very helpful if they only knew some of these things. I think for me, I love the we started with the with the break and the gas. I just that analogy of of and I and I hear, oh, it's just so much, you know. It looks like in the movies, just do more and more and more of this and new and novel things with the but if your foot is on the break, yeah, you're just gonna rev that engine, you're not gonna go anywhere. And it may, you know, feel like this is this is the answer. This is the answer, but uh without addressing the break as well. That was that was very helpful for me. So thank you.
SPEAKER_01:You're welcome.
SPEAKER_03:Well, Jordan, Dr. Jordan Rullo, thank you again so much for taking time to be with us, sharing so many uh nuggets and your wisdom with us. We really appreciate you coming on today.
SPEAKER_01:Well, thank you. Thanks for having me. I love talking about sex. I still can't believe it. This is my job.
SPEAKER_03:And you're so darn good at it. So good at it, Liz and I say that's right. That's right. Well, friends, that does it for us. We will see you next time on another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection Podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, thanks for this honor, Jordan. And remember, friends, it's the small and simple things that create a stronger marriage connection. We'll see you soon.
SPEAKER_03:Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us a favor and take a second to subscribe to our podcast and the Utah Marriage Commission YouTube channel at Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the show. Be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment, and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at StrongerMarriageWife and Facebook at Stronger Marriage. So be sure to share with us which topics you loved, which guests we should have on the show next. If you want even more resources to improve your marriage or relationship connection, visit strongermarriage.org where you'll find free workshops, e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys, and more. Each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, Rex Polanis, and the team at Utah State University, and you, our audience. You make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions, and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.