Stronger Marriage Connection

Why Relationships Feel Hard And How To Make Them Safe | Dr. Stan Tatkin | #162

• Utah Marriage Comission • Season 4 • Episode 162

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0:00 | 43:45

We explore how to design a fair, secure-functioning relationship that protects both partners, repairs fast, and prevents repeated harm. Dr. Stan Tatkin explains why instinct fights intimacy and how governance, PEPPER, and daily presence keep love strong under stress.

• human nature as difficult and self-protective 
• difference between difficult and too difficult 
• clean repair and real apology without excuses 
• attachment biology, pair bonding and threat memory 
• the ick as a distancing threat response 
• limits of labels and misuse on social media 
• why “never again” fails and the value of yielding to reminders 
• PEPPER prevention model and post-mortem revise 
• social contracts, shared leadership and putting the couple first 
• daily micro-connection and ongoing courting 
• stop repetition of injuries with systems and agreements

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Dr. Liz Hale: 

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Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_02

On today's episode, Dr. Liz and I sit down with Dr. Stan Tatken to explore what it really takes to design a relationship that's both happy and secure. He reminds us that perfection isn't possible. We're human. We'll disappoint and irritate each other, but what matters most is how we repair and reconnect. Through communication, mutual respect, and daily effort, Dr. Tatken shows us how we can create a partnership that feels emotionally safe and continuously rewarding. Dr. Stan Tatken is a clinician, researcher, teacher, and developer of a psychobiological approach to couple therapy. He has a clinical practice in Calabasas, California, and with his wife, Dr. Tracy Tatken, co-founded the PACT Institute for the purpose of training other psychotherapists to use this method in their clinical practice. He is on the board of directors of Lifespan Learning Institute and serves as a member on Relationships First Council, a nonprofit organization founded by Harville Hendricks and Helen LeKelly Hunt. We hope you enjoy the show.

Why People Are Difficult By Nature

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection. It's so great to have you here. I'm psychologist Dr. Liz Hale, along with the beloved professor Dr. Dave Schram. Together we have dedicated our life's work to bringing you the best we have in valid marital research, along with a few tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. So I've really been looking forward to this interview today, Dave. Dr. Stan Tatkin. I lifted off something from his TED talk and where he says something along the lines of marriage is difficult. Everybody knows that, right? And most people think it's why? Because of money, sexual intimacy, kids' work, or who picks up the socks or who doesn't. Some people think it's because we're just not right for each other, or we don't have enough in common. Truth be told, there is nothing more difficult on the planet than another person. We are all difficult. Here to tell us why is the one and only clinician, author, and researcher, Dr. Stan Tatkin. Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection, Stan.

SPEAKER_07

Hi, both of you. Thank you for having me on.

SPEAKER_00

It is such an honor to have you here to inspire us with your knowledge of all things marriage, but especially in the areas of attachment and neurobiology. So let's just jump right in, my friend. You say there are numerous reasons, first off, as to why I'm difficult. Probably name a few of your favorites. Why are we difficult as people?

SPEAKER_07

We're difficult as a species. We've always been since our first time on the planet. We're tend to be warlike and aggressive, moody, fickle, opportunistic, easily influenced by groups, uh xenophobic, uh exploitive. Uh you know, what could go wrong with us? Yeah. And so that's all of us, the no exception. It has no uh it knows no difference between male, female, uh uh, or culture or where you are on the planet. Uh we're all difficult and we're all lovely on a good day. It's the bad days we want to watch out for.

SPEAKER_00

We're all very self-aware, aren't we? And the key, I suppose, at least how I look at life's. We're not all self-aware. Oh, we're not. Oh, self-involved is the word I meant, I guess.

SPEAKER_07

We're all selfish and self-centered and self-involved, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, self-involved is what I meant. And we're here to learn how to not be, at least that's how I look at life. Or learn how to to to to be other involved and to understand ourselves.

SPEAKER_07

Oh, that's that's a good really both to be pro-self and pro-relationship at the same time, which is basically how teams operate. Um, but only couples don't operate that way. They don't operate any way, that is organized or structured uh relationship. Any relationship is a mythology, it's an invention, something we make up. And yet couples do not design their relationship from the ground up. They come to the table with their own ideas. Many times they're pointing in different directions, and their ideas are not complimentary, and they don't uh they don't declare who they are or why they are, or what's the point of that relationship, who or what do they serve, and where are they going. So again, what could go wrong? Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's right. Dr. Stan, I'm so excited to have you on. I mean, the the ways, the number of ways that we can be difficult truly are limitless. However, you've mentioned in your work that the fact that you and I are difficult is not the problem necessarily. It's when we cross the line and become too difficult. Uh what does my being too difficult look like?

Too Difficult Vs. Difficult: Governance

SPEAKER_07

Well, too difficult is is defined by uh taking uh uh taking uh entitl, uh taking something uh that uh the other person doesn't also have to give up. Um uh you know, uh losing your formalities and it's good to be king or queen, um, thinking you're family, uh, and therefore you can get away with things because you have a right to, or because you've had trauma or a drug addiction, that you have a special benefit or special uh, you know, get out of uh jail free card where the other person doesn't. And that's being too difficult. So if if secure functioning, which is what I'm gonna try to sell everybody, which is basically anything you want your relationship to be, you decide it's your gig, you just have to agree, right, on the big ticket items. So let's say you have social contract around protecting each other in public and private, right? That's a good one. And one of you uh um uh uh doesn't do it. And when reminded, based on your agreement and permission to enforce, reminds you, hey, that's not taking care of me. And the other person doubles down. That's being too difficult. So we're automatic creatures, most of our day is automatic and memory run. Uh, we're gonna do the same stupid things because it's a reflex and it's memory-based, and we're not thinking most of the time. But I can forget based on an agreement. But when you remind me, I have to cooperate. That's governance. That's our agreement. Otherwise, it's the Wild West.

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm. How does that look? I know we hear so much about repair, right, Dr. Stan, and how crucial that is. The reparative attempt is so crucial in marriages. How can we do an about face to avoid going in deeper into difficulty? Let's say that our partner says, up, across the line. Can you give me an example of how that would look? How would I repair and not be more difficult?

SPEAKER_07

The art of falling on one's sword that was invented uh to save relationships, keep us from going to war, keep us from a duel to the death, uh, keep us from being sued today, right? It is what everybody needs when they feel something has been unfair or unjust, or they've been hurt or misunderstood grossly. They are looking for some kind of repair apology. And that would be, I'm so sorry, that was stupid. I shouldn't have done that. And I do not blame you for being upset with me. I probably full stop. Now, why is that hard and why is that the right thing to do, even though it's the most difficult thing to do? Because we're inclined, me included, to say, but I wouldn't have done that had you not. Or um, I didn't intend to do that, or I'm sorry you took it that way. Or what about what you did? Or what right? Um, or I explain myself. Um that doesn't work in the real world. You do that and it makes the other person angrier, and that and also feels that the other person is more threatening. So we expect this as a matter of fairness and justice, and that's everywhere we go, right? You don't want to hear that. You don't want to hear that it hurts me that I hurt you. You don't care how I feel. You want an apology. Full stop. And that's a hard thing for most of us to do, unless we understand that is the best thing to keep our relationships intact. If it's not somebody you don't you don't care about, then do whatever you want. But if it's your child or your partner or any uh any you know valued relationship, you better do this or you are eating away in the relationship because that's threat.

The Art Of Real Repair

SPEAKER_00

It's crucial. And when my partner actually says, Oh gosh, that was a little harsh, I apologize. It's it's just like music to my ears. Everything is better again, right?

SPEAKER_07

Yes, he has if you say that was harsh and your partner says, No, it wasn't, that partner's in trouble. Yeah, that's right. Tactically, that's a huge error in friendliness, and putting fire.

SPEAKER_00

We are so powerful as partners, Stan, aren't we? We for better or for worse, I I often say we can make things better.

SPEAKER_07

That's because the attachment biology. So the attachment uh biology is nature's glue. It holds us together, it makes us pack animals, it makes us stick around to take care of a baby. But it also keeps us together when we shouldn't be. If we're in a bad relationship or it's unfair, or it's a bad deal, we have a hard time. It's the I can't quit you biology. Um we think it's love, but it actually is an existentially felt matter of uh life or death. It goes back to our earliest attachment relationship. So why is the adult pair bonding, romantic pair bonding, the most difficult? Because it's most like the earliest attachment bond with the originals. And so it has a long memory and it's a very projective system, right? We bring to the table a lot of memory. You know, we're populated with a lot of people, so uh most importantly the first important people in our lives. It could be a teacher, it could be our parents, could be a building, uh, it could be the kids that uh that uh taunt us in school. Uh but these are remembered and they are threat memory. These are threat memory, and we bring those to the table as well. So it it is, you know, we uh we remember these relationships and and they'll come up because we pair bond by recognition and familiarity. So the likelihood that we each have the bite that fits the other person's wound is very, very high. And so we'll we'll play those things out, even though we're not those people, we just play them on TV, right? Uh and it's very compelling, which is why we are also going to make each other worse. Um uh as an is natural unless we understand the animal we picked. We naturally make each other worse because we don't understand the defenses, we think they're threatening.

SPEAKER_00

That's called the pair bond. And we're not just going to bond with just anybody, right? Only someone that has the ability to help make things worse and better. That one's understand. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah. Nature doesn't care about relationship. It only cares about survival of the species and survival itself, right? Which means we're up against nature that is not pro-relationship. It's pro-continuation of the species and survival.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, very good. Getting deep here, Dave.

SPEAKER_01

We'll be right back after this brief message.

SPEAKER_04

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_02

You you talk about the case of the the ick uh factor. Everything's, you know, seems to be going great. You're both happy, and then seemingly out of the blue, one or both of us are stuck with a case of the of the ick. It's an it's this undeniable feeling, right? And it's hard to shake off once it settles in. But can we recover uh from this kind of ick feeling?

Attachment Biology And Pair Bonding

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, if the ick is sensory, um, which which it is most commonly affects people in the distancing group of attachment, insecure attachment. Uh, it has to do with being too close and remembering what it's like to be in one's family of origin. That was distancing. And so I automatically feel that I'm losing my autonomy, my freedom. I'm feeling trapped, I'm feeling confined, and I can't really do anything about it because I'm also conflict avoidant, which takes away my agency. And so because I'm afraid to engage, I have the only uh only way to protect myself is to flee. Uh, and that is where that person is stuck between a rock and a hard place. And so what will happen is that subcortically um there's an alteration in in perception and sensation and visual perception and gustatory, that's taste and smell, right? In the near senses, where it's a kind of amygdala disliking, right? I begin to uh uh dislike on a sensory level my partner because I'm threatened. I don't know this. I think it's them. Uh it's not, it's in my head, it's happening. And we know this because once they once this couple separates, um, it goes away. And when they get back together again, it's not there. And then when they stay together, it comes back. So it is a function of that person's threat system, memory system. I don't know how to have agency in this relationship, and I begin to have aversions towards this person because I have no I have no way to actually engage and and have boundaries, right? That's the distancing group that's more likely to have that phenomenon.

SPEAKER_00

So this is all about attachment.

SPEAKER_07

This part, yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

This part, yeah.

SPEAKER_07

Because you don't you don't pair bond with somebody from the beginning if there's ick. Right? Right, right. It starts to happen with commitment or shortly after that.

SPEAKER_00

How do individuals and a couple, how do they determine what their attachment style is? Do you have a quiz? Do they have can they read something in one of your books? You know, are there four attachment styles?

SPEAKER_07

There, well, uh there's really the three. Uh and then there's then there's disorganization, which is not not a style. It is an overlay of what is the foundation of your attachment organization at that time. So it's not personality, attachment is really just adaptation to one's uh uh uh originals who did or did not have attachment values in their repertoire. So that's what we're talking about, the lack of attachment values, which is uh starts at infancy. And so we adapt, we adapt to the environment we're in, and we adapt to what we already understand is what is uh what is allowed and what is discouraged, or what isn't offered. And so that's all that is. It's a memory. And so we come to the table remembering that, and then we protect ourselves with I know what's going to happen, I'm gonna be abandoned, you're gonna reject me, you're gonna not find me attractive anymore, or I'm going to uh be trapped, I'm going to be smothered and right and engulfed. And so I begin to behave in a way that protects me but appears threatening to you, which causes you to respond in just the way I anticipate. And this is why attachment is resilient, because I'm getting the environment starting with childhood to respond as I would expect, which is negative.

SPEAKER_00

And so the three attachment styles on insecure attachment, um secure and insecure.

SPEAKER_07

One side is a clinging group side, which you could say is anxious and ambivalent, the other is a distancing side, which we could say is dismissive, derogating of attachment values, avoidant. Uh and in the in the second book, we changed it to friendly names, Island, Anchor and Wave. Uh but to answer your question, since that time I've been unhappy with the decision to to uh to categorize because people today in social media use co-opt psychological and psychiatric terms to be a as a cudgel against each other, to blame each other, to pathologize each other, to other ize each other. And that part isn't, I don't think is good. Uh it's for understanding, not to blame, not to go, oh, I know. Uh I've been around narcissists this whole time. No, you don't know what you're talking about. You've been around someone that you recognize again and again. They may be, uh, but they're difficult like you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's right. They're just a different, just a different difficult, maybe.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, we're all yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02

Stan, you let's go over a few key truths here. When we when we hurt each other, it's usually uh without malicious intent, right? But we also need to be clear with our our partner about our needs. So we're curious here, why is it ineffective to tell our spouse, for example, to never again, you know, embarrass us in in public? Uh you know, if that's it sounds kind of like a true request, hey, will you do this? But what are your suggestions with those types of things?

The “Ick” Factor Explained

SPEAKER_07

Well, just like I, if I I can't really effectively promise I'll never do something again. The reason is that uh uh because of here's another nature thing that's against happiness. Uh the biological law of conservation, uh uh, you know, energy conservation, uh, which demands all living things to do the least amount necessary and preserve uh uh resources, energy for what is necessary in the moment. So we no longer think things are necessary uh in the moment after courtship, after we automate each other because we think we know each other. We we now um uh turn our attention to things that are that we don't know so much, novelty, and work, which has a lot of novelty to it demands, and away from the people we live with because um uh we go to sleep. We're automatic. We're doing everything automatically. That's where the trouble begins. And so so we feel better, but we're more likely to hurt each other because we're doing stupid things that the other person feels is insensitive or against their sensibility. Are unfair. And so I can't say I'm not going to do that because I will if it's automatic and repeats. Here's what I can do. Here's what we can do. This is a two-person system. I can incorporate you, Liz, and say if I do anything like that again, I give you full permission to cue me, prompt me, remind me, and I hereby pledge, when reminded, I will yield. I will cooperate immediately. I will change my tone. I will change my uh my attitude. I will uh I will apologize if needed, but you will have no pushback from me and I will learn uh this real time because you're gonna correct me in real time, I'm more likely to remember the next time now. So it it's when it's win-win. That's why I said being too difficult is not cooperating with reminding, being reminded. That's true.

SPEAKER_00

And you've a suggestion, Stan, if you're like um with the group or your family and a partner, it does something hurtful, was like, ah, that hurts. Like, I don't know, any clever ways couples have kind of gotten each other's attention without saying they have a sign, a signal?

SPEAKER_07

Yes, I I would say in general, um uh you your audience might rem just think of the word pepper with the the three Ps capitalized and the R capitalized only. That stands for predict what could go wrong with what's coming up, plan by taking everything that could go wrong together off the table so your good time will be insured, and prepare just before you walk into that event, right? Whether it's talking to your kids or entertaining people, going on a vacation, uh, whether it is having uh your parents over, whatever it is, um always plan for your devils, because devils we are if we're under if we're under a certain amount of stress. That's when we there's a brain change, and that's when we are gonna go live, just like performers. And if we're not prepared for going live, we're gonna repeat and we're gonna do what we do, which is usually pro-self-only, unfriendly. So great, you predict, plan, and prepare before you go into anything, and you get better and better at handling everything and everything, and repair it or revise as needed.

SPEAKER_05

That's the R. It does work.

SPEAKER_07

But we don't we we we don't uh work on prevention.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that is a that's huge. Yeah, I've never thought about prevention. That's beautiful. I love it.

SPEAKER_07

Energy conservation, that's why we don't think uh it's important enough to spend our time.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I've already told you about it, right? I've already told you I'm sensitive to XYZ, for instance, right?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, you're a different animal. I have to deal with the animal I'm with. You're different than you're different from Dave. Uh right if I don't know who I'm dealing with, uh I'm not gonna have an audience, and I'm not gonna get anything because I'm obviously incompetent in dealing with.

SPEAKER_01

We'll be right back after this brief message.

SPEAKER_04

Number two, ready.

SPEAKER_00

And we're capable of making huge mistakes, errors in communication, memory, perception. The key you say is a term you used earlier. It's a simple concept to be a loving, secure functioning partner. Tell us what we're going for. How does that look, please?

Attachment Styles And Misuse Of Labels

SPEAKER_07

We're you and I, whether it's you and me and Dave, if we're a thruple, doesn't matter. If we're if we're in charge of this thing, right? This thing called a relationship, we're creating it bespoke to each other, right? Uh it can be anything we want. We just have to agree and say the truth, because uh we're going to expect each other to do what's best or right or good. That's those are the three, even when it will be the hardest thing to do. So these are purpose-centered principles or rules, laws, whatever you want to call them, that we adhere to um because in advance we've bought into what the purpose is and that it's going to be good for all of us, even though it could be hard to do because of our nature. Stubbornness, righteousness, we need to be right. Um, we're in a bad mood, we're feeling sick, uh, any of those things that will cause us to act according to how we feel in the moment, which is what puts us in danger actually in relationships, always. Uh we do what's easy and what feels good in the immediate rather than what is best uh for us downstream. Right? We don't think of the consequences or of our behavior when we're trying to protect ourselves, which is happening all the time because we have an always-on survival instinct. Always there, always working. And all it does is sweep up anything we consider uh-oh, uh, and now we're looking for it subconsciously or subcortically. Because subcortically we scan for threat uh based on pattern recognition, not critical thinking.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And oftentimes the threat is the very person we love the most. It's going to be.

SPEAKER_07

Yep, it's going to be. Yeah, because they're the most, especially a primary attachment figure, they're most in line to harm us because we have been. Yeah, there's no other way. In that kind of relation.

SPEAKER_00

And sadly, this is where couples think, oh, I just married the wrong person. I need to go find somebody else.

SPEAKER_07

No, you didn't. You it but nature it doesn't make that kind of mistake. Psychologically, maybe you did. Maybe, maybe you still never learn how to deal with the anger that came from your father, but you keep finding uh uh, you know, angry partners. Maybe you have a hard time expressing anger, and that is making your partner angrier because you won't express it. You we know this as psychologists. This is called projective identification. It's human, it happens, it is what it is, right? But this is this is how we roll, and especially under stress. So we're we're dealing with our nature, which on a good day is lovely, on a bad day, not so much. We have to actually use executives to be better than the average primate, and that is to use what we have, the ability to predict uh things based on past data, the ability to hold and wait for something better than the immediate. That means tolerating pain without acting on it, uh, right? Uh being able to tolerate differences. You're different than me. That's just fine. It's annoying, but if we accept our differences, that is our superpower. It is. That we're able to uh we're able to uh uh um realize our losses, very important, and we're able to grieve them. A lot of angry people because they won't grieve loss, and they're still angry as if they're entitled to get what they didn't, and they make other people pay for that. And so these are the important things. Really, what I'm saying is it's about being an adult, it's about growing up, growing up, yeah. And it's energy expenditure, which is something, again, we'd have to put in place because we're nor we're not likely to do that uh by nature. We're likely to just forget or do what's in front of us. Yeah, do what's in front of us. That's what we're we're all up against this. And that's why I'm saying this so we give each other somewhat of a break here. Um that that yeah, that yeah, and and to look at ourselves rather than the other person because that's another aspect of our human nature. I don't know why I'm unhappy. I mean, let me think here. Oh, yeah, it's you. It's you. Again, energy conservation easier.

Why “Never Do It Again” Fails

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Uh Stan, you we love this idea of creating social contracts in our relationship. What are some of the golden rules that you suggest?

SPEAKER_07

Well, we start, uh, let's say Tracy and I, my wife, we we start at the top. Who are we? Are we uh are we sharing power and authority and responsibility? Are we casting each other in ourselves as two generals or two leaders or two executives, um, two bosses? And if that's the case, that settles a lot of other things that are below that, right? So if that's at the top, we are in charge of everything and everyone, including each other. That says a lot for other things that we're gonna place just below that. The next thing would be what, you know, what are we in terms of our purpose? Are we the most important thing to think about, the couple, this thing that is greater than ourselves, this invention that we've created that protects us from each other and everyone? Is that going to be at the top of the food chain decision tree that has to be considered before anything below it, children included? Well, why would we do that as a strategy or as a logistical thing? Because everyone and everything depends on us being happy, happy parents, happy kids, and working well together as a team, collaboratively and cooperatively, or nothing else will work as well. Our health, financial well-being, our children, friends being around us because we're not pleasant to be around. Um, and just being able to get things accomplished and create things, everything hinges on our teamwork. We have to be allies, can never be adversaries, because adversaries are outside of our world, a world that doesn't care about us, never will, never has. Uh and we create our world of safety and security because we can by agreement, and the alternative is not good. That's why. So that comes, so we're gonna make decisions. We come first, our good time comes first. We're the most important people in this in every room, not as arrogant, but it but that we protect our time first so that we are as effective with people as we can be. Otherwise, we're not. And so we predict, plan, and prepare for everything because our good time is gonna come first. And other people's mileage may vary. But ours is assured now, what will get in that way? And we we've been practicing this, and I gotta tell you, I wish everybody would do it. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you're you're convincing us. You've written several books, Dan. Do you do you have a favorite? Is it always your your latest book? I really, I really love, by the way, your recent book, In Each Other Scare. Do you have a favorite? And and what's what's most meaningful to you just sitting here right now? What are you most proud of?

PEPPER: Predict, Plan, Prepare, Repair, Revise

SPEAKER_07

Yeah. I, you know, it's odd because I'm always thinking, I'm always learning. You know, my students help me learn, preaching helps me learn. Um, that keeps me uh enjoying this, right? I'm always researching. Um, so I would say um for me, in each other's care, which was actually wasn't going to happen because I was in a three-book contract, and I it's a long story. It was during COVID, and I decided to do this book of common uh complaints heard in the clinic. Uh and and that's when I really started um pushing the justice and fairness theory issue and also the social contract issue, but also in the second reason we mostly are unhappy and don't get along, and that is the manner in which all of us, all of us, will interact when one or both of us is under stress. That is that's why I say plan for your devils. That is going to be the problem. If we're not training our couples to be fully collaborative under the greatest stress, then we're not doing, I think, our jobs, right? Because this is not individual therapy, this is survival first and foremost. It is. And in other worlds, we would know that. In other situations like the military or Ukraine or Gaza, we would know this. Uh, we have to survive together. That's uh but we also do in this world too, because again, we think we're safe. We're not. Anything can happen and does, and uh, we're not prepared for what's coming ever, because we don't do that as couples, partners. So I would say this is based on reality, on where the way the world works, not the way we wish it would, not the way we wish our family would. This is uh being an adult in this world, knowing that your relationship can be by design happy continuously and safe and secure, absolutely by design in agreement. Is it perfect? No, that's what apologies are for. Will we still annoy and irritate each other? You bet. Will we still feel disappointed? Yes, because we have brains that are always aware of what we don't have. That's a feature in survival of bug and happiness, and that's also in one's head only. So, yeah, these things are real, but this is earning love, earning respect by doing the right thing when it's the hardest thing to do. And that, by the way, for nerds and neuroscience, that's the this area here, the one we rarely use, uh called the dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex.

SPEAKER_00

Uh-huh. Yeah, like you said, it's all about growing up. Dr. Stan Tatkin, where can our listeners find out more about you and your resources you offer? I love the blog that has been coming through.

SPEAKER_07

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00

My email right now. Thank you for that. That's rich.

SPEAKER_07

Thank you. Um I really, this is this is people make make up their theories based on what they need, right? Uh, and I've always been very fear-based. And uh what's always uh what has comforted me is science, is uh is understanding, is uh anthropology, is history, because I know that uh there's meaning in this world when it comes to human beings, right? Everything repeats and we all do the same things. So um the the PACT the pactinstitute.com. That's P-A-C-Tinstitute.com. That's for people who want to train with us. They started off as training therapists in Psychobiological Approach. And now we're direct to the public also. We do couple retreats.

SPEAKER_00

Terrific. And where can couples where do where do people sign up? Like the blog that I have? Can't remember how maybe the same place, packinstitute.com. Everything is excellent. We will add these details to our show notes. Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01

We'll be right back after this brief message.

SPEAKER_04

Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_02

Dr. Susan Tacken, uh, in honor of the name of our podcast, Stronger Marriage Connection, what do you believe is the key to a stronger marriage connection?

Secure Functioning And Adulting Skills

SPEAKER_07

Teamwork. Absolute teamwork. Absolute teamwork. Um, three-legged race. It would be as if I bound your legs together for your for a month. You would know exactly what it must be. Nothing else. We cannot do anything without each other's agreement and permission to move, or we will not survive. Full stop.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. Yeah, love that. Love that.

SPEAKER_07

It's not it's not a solo sport.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's no way. Yeah, that I win, yeah, without without you, without my partner.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, if I win at your cost, I'll pay for it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. Then ultimately I lose. That's right. Um, as we wrap up, Stan, what do you feel like is a takeaway message? We call it a takeaway of the day. Is there something you want our listeners to remember from our discussion today? What would that be?

SPEAKER_07

I I would say be, you know, fight energy conservation by really thinking critically and not just sleepwalking, right? That includes denial that we could lose our partner at any minute. Wake up and realize that we're being pushed around by forces we don't know, but they're they are determining our behavior all the time. And so if a part of us is awake and we're present and attentive throughout the day at points with our partner, do that. That that counters our tendency to be automatic. It's the only thing that does. Moments of real presence and attention in the eye. There's a lot to say there, also neurochemically. Uh, that's a bonus, but just do that. Just do that throughout the throughout the day. Take seconds. Take seconds. Watch what happens.

SPEAKER_00

Take seconds and just do what exactly?

SPEAKER_07

Moments of uh with your partner, full presence and attention. Looking looking like at them like you love them. Hey, I love you. I'm so happy I'm married to you. These little things, this is for another time. Um, uh, we get a mutual dump of uh oxytocin, vasopressin, and and dopamine. Just by doing that. Just a little bit. That's all you have to do. No date night, just do this throughout the day at different points and watch and watch what happens.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_07

Remember, one of the one of the because of because of energy conservation and automation, we stop courting. We stop our formalities. We don't do anything. We don't need to. We got the gig, right? We're familiar. Yeah, we don't need to. We forget we have to keep the gig. And that means always court, continue to court to the end of death, the end of life. Court.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's great. Liz, what about you? What's your takeaway today?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, you know, I love pepper. I think that's just so brilliant about predicting, planning, preparing. And then when we goof up, it's the repair and the revise. You know, and it can happen so quickly instead of going days on end, hours on end of bitterness, resentment can be quite.

SPEAKER_07

Also, don't allow repetition. Uh, repetition is not your friend. You have a duty, repetition of doing anything that one person is unhappy with that has to be stopped immediately. Otherwise, it snowballs uh because there's a neurobiology to this threat. And and it makes that person angrier and more threatened uh with each repetition. How do you do that? You uh you apologize and then you put something in place where neither of you can do that thing again, like a post mortem, like everyone else does in uh in uh areas of science that mattered, medicine, whatever. Don't repeat it.

SPEAKER_00

Well, because there are so many things that repeat. Pardon me, Dave, just just to uh throw this at you, Santa Capitania. Don't mind. So I see often and I hear often about the couple in the car, right? Husband driving and he's yelling at the cars and she gets intense and then she kind of corrects him. That's a pattern, that's repetition. It's probably gone back to the buggy days, by the way.

SPEAKER_07

What can that couple do? Um remember, driver, that you have a passenger who has no control. Um they're they're uh they're only as safe as as they feel you are, and uh they have a right to complain, dude. And so if you care about your person, you pay attention to that, uh, or be right at your own expense, right? So this is about thinking, right? I am in the control seat. So if my partner is not feeling safe, take care of it. It's not it's not about you. And and so but also predict this ahead of time before you get back into the car. Uh remember, uh let's agree that you're not going to do this, right? And I won't do that, right? Agreed. Okay. Um taking care of it. So again, again, prediction and and preparation.

SPEAKER_00

Lovely. Thank you. Thank you for that. I'm glad. And Dave, what about you? What's the golden nugget, my friend?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you know, a couple things I uh I wrote down, Stan. One is accepting differences is our superpowers, one thing is something that you said. And then you said everything depends on teamwork. And I I I really like that. That's the key.

SPEAKER_07

Two are always better than one everything, unless they don't work together, in which case they're not better. They're worse. And um we heal faster with people, we uh recover faster with people, um, we um uh we think better with people, more creative, as long as the conditions are correct. Conditions are the key.

Social Contracts And Shared Leadership

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, such wise words. Well, Stan, thank you again for joining us for your endless uh contributions to the field of marriage, for the books, the wisdom that you continue to share to help individuals and couples in this in this journey. Uh, we sure appreciate your time today.

SPEAKER_07

And be sure I'm just as much of an idiot, maybe more than a lot of most people, um, and I do this. So it it's worth it. It may be hard, but it's worth it.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I love it. Yes. Well, that's it. Now for uh us friends, thanks for joining us. We will see you next time on another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection Podcast.

SPEAKER_00

And remember, it's the small things that create a stronger marriage connection. Take care now.

SPEAKER_03

Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us a favor and take a second to subscribe to our podcast and the Utah Marriage Commission YouTube channel at Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the show. Be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment, and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at StrongerMarriageWife and Facebook at Stronger Marriage. So be sure to share with us which topics you loved or which guests we should have on the show next. If you want even more resources to improve your marriage or relationship connection, visit strongermarriage.org where you'll find free workshops, e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys, and more. Each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, Rex Polanis, and the team at Utah State University, and you, our audience. You make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions, and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.