How Emotional Safety Transforms Your Marriage | Shane Birkel | #163

We explore how emotional safety fuels connection and why consent, validation, and nervous system awareness transform tough talks. Shane Burkle shares RLT’s “truth with love,” a six-hour intensive model, and a simple exercise couples can use today.

• connection seekers vs safety seekers and the push-pull loop
• what emotional safety looks like in practice
• validating language, curiosity, and accountability
• consent in conversations and setting parameters
• timeouts, check-ins, and nervous system regulation
• RLT’s truth with love and compassionate confrontation
• inner child work that reframes defensiveness
• therapist grounding, client vision, and clear goals
• full respect living and everyday repair
• where to find Shane’s exercise and resources

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_03 0:03

On today's episode, Dr. Liz and I are joined by therapist Shane Burkle. We'll dive into the personal growth that happens inside relationships, the dynamics of connection seekers and safety seekers, and what it really means to create emotional safety with your partner. We'll also explore practical communication strategies, the role of consent in conversations, and how couples can deepen their connection by understanding each other's emotional reality. Our guest Shane Burkle is a licensed marriage and family therapist and works primarily with couples and emotionally avoidant men. He hosts a weekly podcast called The Couples Therapist Couch that is all about the practice of couples therapy. He is the creator of the Couples Therapist Inner Circle, which is a membership site supporting therapists in their work with couples. We hope you enjoy the show.

Why Relationships Drive Personal Growth

SPEAKER_04 0:57

Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection. We're so glad that you're here. I'm Dr. Liz Hale, psychologist, along with the professor Dr. Dave Schram. And together we have dedicated our life's work to bringing you the best we can find in valid marital research, along with a few tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. Dave, you know what I love most about our podcast, in addition to working with you, of course, is meeting other professionals I never would have had the honor of meeting otherwise. And our next guest is just that person. Here's what I value about Shane Burkle. He he pays attention to the research and the science of love. He's not only a trained marriage and family therapist, but has extensive training with some of the best of the best in our field. He certainly honors them and pays attention to them anyway, from Gottman to Sue Johnson, Sue Johnson, and especially Terry Real. I thought my two-hour sessions were, well, hopefully helpful anyway, but wait until you hear about the length of Shane Burkle's sessions. This might just be part of a secret sauce. Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection, Shane Burkle.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Oh, thank you so much, Liz. It's great to be here and great to see you too, Dave.

SPEAKER_04 2:11

It's just such a pleasure. You work with couples every day, Shane, as well as therapists who work with couples every day. What continues to inspire you about marriage even after all these years, my friend?

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Yeah, it's a great question. And I just think that uh being in a relationship is such a great opportunity to learn more about yourself and to grow as a human being. And um, you know, I think I actually think that it's one of the best ways to change the world, right? The way that we behave in our relationships with other people influences if if people have children, it certainly influences the person you're in a relationship with, and I and I think it has the potential to change the world in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_04 2:59

Can you remember a moment maybe early in your career when you realized this is what I was meant to do?

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that um, you know, very early on when I was thinking about becoming a therapist, I, you know, just I think I was trying to figure out my own self in a lot of ways. I think I I was, you know, confused. I thought psychology was always interesting because it felt like a way of understanding deeper stuff that was going on within me. And um, but I think when I started working with couples, I really saw the potential for growth and change. And I had these experiences, you know, where I would be working with individuals and it would feel like I don't feel like I'm getting quite the whole story. And then once I started working with couples, it felt like, oh my gosh, we can make progress so much more quickly when we have the whole picture here.

SPEAKER_04 3:56

I have thought that so many times. It feels like for me sometimes, Shane, that I have a co-therapist in the room, right? Somebody else who can say, Yeah, you know, I kind of agree, and that's really how it feels for me. Oh, it's like magic to me. I I feel a little frustrated sometimes doing individual therapy for the for that very reason. And okay, so Shane, please go ahead and tell Dave and our listeners and viewers about the length of your sessions.

Six-Hour Intensives And Traction

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Yeah, absolutely. I try to encourage everybody to start with a six-hour intensive. And I mean, we'll sometimes we'll take a lunch break in the middle there. But um, to me, it just helps get traction for people, you know. And I I think a lot of people have the mindset that, you know, you're gonna meet every week for 50 minutes or something like the traditional therapy setup. And and I do that, I do do that with a lot of people. And um, but I feel like oftentimes, you know, the second week, the third week, the fourth week, you know, it takes us half the session just to sort of like recap and start getting back into what we had talked about before and getting into the deeper themes. And when we have those six hours, it just feels like we we gain traction and we can keep getting deeper and deeper. And it feels incredibly helpful for the couples.

SPEAKER_04 5:14

Uh I love it. I love it.

Connection Seekers Vs Safety Seekers

SPEAKER_03 5:17

Yeah, that's awesome. Shame, we've seen your work, Shane, that you talk about connection seekers and safety seekers. Can you please explain these roles and and how partners can begin recognizing themselves in these patterns?

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Yeah, absolutely. And I well, and I think it's it's a great question. I think all of us are as an individual are seeking how do I how do I connect with someone and still feel safe? Right. So we have both of those things going on at the same time. Now, I do think some people have um a harder, like harder, maybe it's like a spectrum, right? There are people who are a little bit more avoidant or uh protective of their emotional reality, and there are people who are a little bit more uh pursuing and um looking for that connection with some someone else. And I think it becomes a challenge for a lot of couples. I mean, I think it it can create a um uh a dynamic that's that's not healthy. I mean, I think these people find each other for a reason because when it works well, it's great, but sometimes uh it can create that dynamic that doesn't feel super healthy for people if they don't have the skills to communicate about it and and notice it and kind of step to the outside and and look at it. Um but a lot of times, you know, one partner will will be seeking that connection, we'll want to talk more about the problems, talk more about the issues, let's get to the bottom of things. The other person will interpret that as conflict and they'll feel like I I this this means that there's something unsafe happening if you're talking about all the problems. So I'm gonna try to avoid that. I'm gonna try to keep the peace, right? And and neither person is right or wrong, right? They both have good intentions, but oftentimes it creates this dynam, this sort of push-pull dynamic where you know one person is the more one person tries to seek those conversations, the more the other person pulls away. And the more the other person pulls away, the more anxious the other person becomes and wants to talk about it. So it's important for couples to sort of recognize and acknowledge it. Yeah, well said.

What Emotional Safety Looks Like

SPEAKER_03 7:29

Yeah, what if describe that a little bit more? I mean, that that safety. Um when I do relationship and I talk about happiness and even positivity marriage stuff, I talk about the three needs of safety, satisfaction, and connection. What does that safety look like? I mean, for partners to create the safety for each other in those moments of uh vulnerability, really.

Validating Language And Examples

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Yeah, absolutely. And um I would say the way the way I would say it is that we have to create safety for ourselves first and foremost. And so, you know, different people are are have more or less skills than I think it depends what you grow up with in your family. I think it depends what you know how much knowledge you have of what healthy relationships look like. But I definitely think the more safety I can create in myself, the more I can create it for my partner as well. And, you know, one of the things that I that I talk a lot about is uh um receptivity in the communication. So if my partner, let's say my partner, or I talk about like each person has their own experience and their own reality. And those could be very different from each other. And what happens a lot of times, let's say, you know, my wife is just having a bad day and she's trying to talk to me about it, and she's saying, um, you know, I I feel really hurt because of something that happened. It may or may not even have to do with me, but it starts making, depending on my personality, and this is actually true for me, it starts making me feel really uncomfortable that my wife is having a bad day, right? So I'm gonna try to fix it or explain it away. And I'm gonna try to say, well, what do you mean? We well, we we had breakfast together and then we did this, everything should be fine. What's wrong? And and it can it it starts to it could feel very invalidating of her experience, right? Or or if she's giving me feedback about me, I could say, Well, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. You shouldn't feel hurt, I didn't mean to do it that way, right? And um, what happens is she feels very much unheard, unseen, um, misunderstood. I I start feeling misunderstood because I'm like, well, I didn't have the intention of hurting you, so let me explain to you why you shouldn't feel that way. And I think people get really stuck in that and then they don't know what to do with the communication at that point. And I think you know, one of the things I try to teach people is about that receptivity. Like my partner's reality is her reality. It doesn't matter whether I agree with it or it doesn't matter whether I see it the same way or remember it the same way. She has the right to her experience and her reality. And my job as a listener, if I want to create safety for her, I want to do everything I can to try to, at least for the moment. I mean, my my stuff is just as important as hers. But if she's distressed, in that moment, do I have the ability to kind of set aside my stuff, the things I might be hurt about or whatever, and to tune in to what's going on for her, to be able to say, I want my job is to take in her reality, to create space for her to have whatever feelings, whatever things she's experiencing in that moment, to come to it with compassion, with curiosity, and try to make her feel heard and seen and understood. It doesn't mean I have to agree with her, it doesn't mean I have to agree to do anything I don't want to do. Um, but it's just about how do I make her feel heard as the first step in the conversation. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 11:11

Very helpful. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 11:12

And so that might look like what shame do you mind, besides saying, what? What do you mean you've had a bad day? We had breakfast, we had this, that. Can you just give us a quick example of what the other would look like, please? The validating.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I might, I might say, Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry you're having a bad day. What's going on? Right. I I want to move into I want to validate, right? Or I could say, you know what, it makes sense that you're upset. I will I was running 15 minutes late. If I can add some accountability, that's always helpful. There's that option. You know, I could say, you know what, it makes sense that you're upset. I was running 15 minutes late. I know how important to you it is for us to be on time. You know, or I or I could say, um, you know, I'm having a I could be honest. I could say, I'm having a really hard time taking this in. Can you tell me more about what that feels like for you? But I'm keeping the energy on her reality and her experience. Right. And I and I try to tell people like, you don't have to be a mind reader. You don't have to say the right thing. But like, how do you keep that energy on that person's experience? Right? Curiosity is a great one. Sometimes mirroring back what they're saying is incredibly helpful. So I could just say, I could simply say, what I hear you saying is, and I could just repeat back exactly what she said to me. Right? That that validation, it makes sense that you're feeling that way. The accountability, the curiosity, though, those are all really helpful ways to stay present in the conversation.

SPEAKER_04 12:44

Thank you, Shane. Yeah, being curious, not furious, right? One of my daily, daily pieces of advice.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

We'll be right back after this brief message.

Consent In Conversations

SPEAKER_02 13:05

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_04 13:09

Well, what's the number one communication habit? You wish that every couple would break just immediately, right now.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Well, that's a that's a great question, too. I've thinking of a few different things. I mean, I feel like when we're talking about communication, I think one of the a really important thing is consent. Consent, like each person feels like they're consenting to the same type of conversation. You know, so let's flip the script. Let's say I'm feeling really upset and I approach my wife because I want to talk about it. Like, I think it's really important that I make sure that she understands what I'm asking for in that communication. I could I could say, you know, honey, I just had a really hard day at work. I'd love to vent for 10 minutes. Is this a good time for you? Right. So that she knows she's she's then has the ability. She she could say, you know what, I'm in the middle of a bunch of different things. Can we do this a little bit later? Right. Or she could say, sure. And now if she agrees to it, she knows, okay, he's looking to vent, right? He's not looking for a problem-solving conversation, which is something I could ask for. Um, but I think just saying, like, like, well, it's good to recognize like there's a speaker and a listener. And the the speaker well, let me say this the the listener, the job of the listener is much more difficult than the speaker. The speaker is the one who's sharing their reality. The listener is the one who needs to tune in to give to create space for the speaker. And so if I want to be the speaker, it's really important that my partner knows what's happening here. And you know, I sometimes it's helpful to put parameters around it. And I know this can feel kind of artificially constructed to some people, but it's important so that we know what we're consenting to. Like, hey, for the next 30 minutes, you know, do you have the ability to be present because, you know, or to be the listener for me because I'm really experiencing a lot. And I think even if I'm the speaker, I need to take responsibility for the way I'm sharing things and make sure I'm speaking from the place of this is my reality, this is my perspective, this is what's going on for me, this is how I feel, uh, in instead of the blame and criticism and judgment that might creep out.

SPEAKER_04 15:38

Yeah. Oh, that's nice. Very good. You know, when when those emotions do run high, uh, like in a fight, what's what's your favorite pause button technique that you find works really well, Shane?

Timeouts And Nervous System Resets

SPEAKER_00 15:52

Yeah, I mean, sometimes I tell people that, you know, I well, I think it's important for people to understand how our nervous systems work. You know, when if it's starting to feel like an argument or even a fight, and and I'm saying things that I normally wouldn't say to the person who I love more than anyone else in the world, it's important to recognize that and say, you know what, there's nothing helpful is going to happen at this point. You might say there's two speakers and no listeners happening at that moment. And and possibly, I know there are times where neither neither person has the ability to be the listener, right? Both people's nervous systems are heightened, uh, it just feels too stressful. And if if we're not treating each other with full respect, then uh, you know, I would say it might be the most helpful thing might be to take a time out. And one of the things I tell people that it taking a time out is very different than turning your back on someone and sort of like stomping out and slamming the door. That's different, right? Where I'm almost doing it to punish my partner. Taking a healthy time out is something that I think it's helpful when when you're calm and relaxed, like when things are going well in your relationship, that you and your partner sort of discuss, like, hey, you know, maybe that was a tough argument a week ago. Let's talk about what happens if we were ever to get in an argument like that again. Let's talk about what the timeout plan looks like. You know, where if I start getting heightened and I'm saying things that I really wish I wasn't saying, it's probably better that we take a timeout. And what it means is I love you and I care about you, and I don't want to keep going down this path in the way we're talking to each other. And sometimes I encourage people to think of a word, like like some just random word. Like I remember this couple came up with watermelon, that was the word for them. That if they because because they can't, they can't think of the right things to say in the moment. And so if they said watermelon, what it meant was I love you and I care about you and I need to go take a time out because I'm not showing up in the way that I want to right now. And the the other really important thing about if you if you request space to take a time out, the important thing is to come back to the conversation or to at least check in. You know, so I recommend within about 30 minutes to at least check in. Now, in 30 minutes, I can still say, you know what, I'm still really heightened. I don't think I can come back yet, but I I'm just checking in. I hope you're okay. And and then maybe come back to it in a couple hours, or if you have to wait till the next day. But there's that checking in process because some people who are more on the emotionally avoidant side of things um just sort of disappear and and and they don't you might not hear from from them for a few days, and and their partner tends to have a lot of fear. Like, when are we ever gonna come back to the conversation? What's going on? We didn't repair, what's happening? And um, so it's good to have that as part of the plan that we're gonna keep checking in with each other.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Yeah, excellent.

Speaking Truth With Love In RLT

SPEAKER_03 19:13

Shane, you're a a fan of Terry Real's relational life therapy or RLT. What makes RLT different from traditional marriage counseling?

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Well one of the things that I love about RLT is the idea of speaking truth with love. I think there are a lot of um in my experience, there are a lot of therapists who sort of have this idea that we're gonna spend several sessions building rapport. Right? I don't I don't want to offend anyone, I don't want to say the wrong thing. So I'm gonna really like make sure that I'm avoiding conflict with the people I'm working with. And Sometimes what happens is um well I would say I I I want to honor my clients enough to tell them the truth about what I've what I'm seeing. And the more I can do that with love and compassion, the better. Right. So the first thing I I want to ask people is what do they really want? Because once they tell me what they really want, then like when I want when I want to tell them something that's going to be hard for them to hear, if I want to tell them like, hey, listen, you're doing these things that are completely ruining your relationship, um, I I want to connect it to what they told me they wanted, right? So then I want to say, you know, you mentioned that you wanted your partner to be a lot more warm and connected with you. I have some ideas of the things that you're doing that's getting in the way of that. Would you like to hear more about that? So I'm not going to back down from telling them the ways that they're messing up, so so to speak. Um I I really want to, those are the things that are going to move the needle in their relationship, but I'm trying to figure out a way to do it with compassion and love. Like, like, you know, because I feel like I I'm on, I want them to know I'm on their team. Like I want the same thing they do. And if I hold back because I'm afraid of their reaction, then uh it's not going to be helpful to anybody. Now that being said, I you know, I've had people walk out on me because they don't like the feedback I'm giving them. But to me, it's like I feel better about the way that that, you know, I can say that I did my best and I and I tried to express truth to them, and maybe they're gonna take that and you know let it sort of sink in over time. But um, I think it's more I want to give them, I want to honor them by giving them the truth of what I'm seeing in front of me.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

Can you walk us through a a transformation maybe that you've seen in a couple of you know, no names, of course, but it shows how this is possible and how this works.

A Take-Home Exercise For Couples

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Yeah, absolutely. So let's say that it's it's a husband and a wife. Um, this is this is a couple that I had a uh a few weeks ago. And um let's say, you know, the wife is complaining because she feels really disconnected, she feels really unheard in the relationship. She feels like whenever I bring up what I want to talk about, he gets defensive, he minimizes my emotions, he tries to fix things, and um, she's just feeling really disconnected and like there's there's no way to get through. And and people start, you know, people go through this for years, as the two of you, I'm sure you know, you you hear from people, like, and it just creates this distance, like we can't even talk about anything, we can't even talk about the truth of what's going on without people getting hurt and things like that, right? So, in this situation, I I can't remember exactly how we got here, but I ended up asking the husband, I said, Who encouraged you to talk about emotions when you were growing up in your in your family? And and he said, Well, nobody nobody did that. Nobody was encouraging me to talk about what was going on for me. In fact, my parents were just fighting all the time. And and then that that's an opportunity where so he's he's constantly feeling criticized and blamed by his wife because he's not very good at connecting emotionally. And now he's telling me about his childhood. Now I can I can do something different, which is move into compassion for him and say, Oh my gosh, nobody was listening to you when you were when you were a kid. Your parents were fighting all the time? That's awful. What was that like for you? You know, and and in this case, he said, um, you know, he remembers being seven years old, and he was in his bedroom by himself, and he could hear his his parents screaming at each other uh outside his bedroom, and he was just like so scared and so afraid and so worried about them, worried about whether they were gonna stay together. And you know, he's just a this little seven-year-old with no feeling like he had no power in the situation to do anything about it. And um, you know, a lot of times I'll do inner child work, and this is um kind of part of RLT, but uh I've had I've had more training in how to do this. But you know, I might ask him, in this case I did, I asked him to uh imagine bringing that little seven-year-old in front of him as his you know, 40-year-old adult self, to bring that little seven-year-old in front of him and to have a conversation and talk to that little seven-year-old the way that that seven-year-old, you know, tell him what he needed to hear. And um, you know, it's really beautiful work, and and it's amazing to me how much people end up connecting to their emotions in those situations in a surprising way. And um, you know, so so then we can say, well, oh yeah. And one of the insights that he came to himself, he said, whenever my wife comes to me and she's upset about something, I just think about my parents fighting, and I the I just want to avoid that at all costs. Now that's a completely different meaning and insight for his wife to understand. Like he's trying to preserve the peace. He's not trying to make you feel minimized or invalidated or dismissed, you know, to to understand, like, of course, you know, and and then I can say, of course, that's what you want to do. Of course, that little boy just wants to protect the peace at all costs. That makes so much sense. Right. And then um, I can, you know, I often teach people, and and I was teaching him, so when you're in a conversation with your wife and she's talking about how upset she is, what I I want you to make sure that you're taking care of that little boy so that you can tell him he's safe and sound. This is somebody who loves me and cares about me. Um, and you're gonna stand behind me as I, as my adult self, am going to have this conversation with my wife. And so that, you know, you're sort of bringing people into their best self or their conscious self, I would say, that as an adult, uh, I can see that my wife talking about what she's upset about is not a threat, you know, and and we sort of reframe that. This is something that's that she's trying to share with you to be helpful to the relationship. And then I taught him about good listening skills, like we talked about a few minutes ago, about how to take in her perspective, how to listen to what's going on for her, that that's his job. And that's what will lead to the peace that he's seeking, right? And then I can turn to her and I can say, hey, listen, now now you know a little bit more about what happened for him growing up. Here's how, excuse me, here's how you can be really respectful as a speaker. Here's how you can share what's going on for you in a way that's not criticizing, it's not blaming, but you can simply share this is my reality, my perspective, this is what's going on for me. And then you can kind of just work, you know, you're working that communication. And that's why I love doing the six hours. You know, sometimes we have we have time to go into both people's childhood realities, like understand more about each of their woundings and how those are showing up in that couple's dynamic. And how do we teach each person how to take care of those parts of themselves so that they can show up as their full adult conscious selves in the relationship with each other?

SPEAKER_01 27:56

We'll be right back after this brief message.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_04 28:13

Do you do you have an extra size, Shane, that maybe after listening to this episode today, couples could could practice to increase to increase their closeness and connection?

SPEAKER_00 28:25

Yeah, absolutely. I think I have one on my website, shaneberkle.com. It's um it's this process of speaking and listening. It talks about the the roles of the speaker, the roles of the listener. It it helps uh give people wording that they can use to um have this type of communication with each other.

SPEAKER_04 28:47

Sweet. All right, excellent. I'm gonna love that. We will definitely link that soon and and want to know more about where to find you.

SPEAKER_03 28:56

And Shane, since we have listeners who are both uh marriage therapists and we have listeners who uh go to marriage therapy, what common mistakes do new therapists make and what advice do you give to avoid them?

How Clients Get The Most From Therapy

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Yeah, I love that. I love that question. And one of the things that I I believe and I talk about sometimes is that, you know, as a therapist, I don't know if the if the two of you can relate to this, but like when I'm working with an individual, um it feels so much easier. And some like I'm not, I'm not, you I'm not usually getting triggered, right? I'm just staying connected. I'm listening to their story, I'm validating. I'm uh, you know, it feels like I can stay present with that. When I'm working with a couple, all of my own stuff uh sometimes starts coming to the surface, and I'm getting triggered, and I'm and I'm like noticing myself kind of getting wrapped up. So one of the things I tell people, and this is my belief, is that the more work you do on yourself, the more you can show up as a as a good therapist for the people you work with. And the other thing I'll say is that it's important to stay grounded in your chair as a therapist, right? Especially when you're working with a couple, that one, you know, oftentimes I remember um this person I had on my on my podcast one time, he told me that you know, when when couples come in, they're going, they're each going to tell you why the other person is 95% of the problem in their relationship, right? And the math doesn't add up. And so it's you know, that's why you have to stay grounded in your chair, right? I want to make sure that I'm taking in each person's perspective, but like it would be easy if one person said, Well, you know, my partner's always late. Uh, you know, can you believe it? And then I can turn to the partner and say, Well, why don't you just be on time, right? And the other partner says, Well, they're always mean to me and criticizing me. Well, why don't you stop being mean and criticizing? And it's it's sort of like I can kind of like follow the thread of wherever they're going to take me, and that could be all over the place. And and sometimes it starts to feel like they're having the same argument that they do at home, and I'm just part of it. And it's like, I think we really have to stay grounded in our chair, meaning like I'm going to fully uh do use the listening skills that I was talking about as a therapist with the with the one person at a time who I'm talking to, but I'm really going to encourage them to use language like, this is my reality, this is my perspective, this is what's going on for me. This is what I think would be really helpful. These are the requests that I have for my partner. And I'm going to say, great. And I'm going to look at the other partner. I'm going to say, you know what, this is their perspective. You may have a completely different perspective, but right now I'm just, I appreciate you being patient. And right now I'm just listening to their perspective. I want to make sure I understand it. And you're going to have your turn too. And then I'm talking to the other person. I'm really taking it in, you know, and I think um we want to sort of make their realities collide in some way. Because in my mind, there's always a way to get them unstuck. They're creating, they're creating the stuckness, and I do it too. I'm not saying they as like I do this in my own relationship. I create the stuckness by the meaning that I make up in my head about what's going on. Right. Like, if let's say I have a trigger about my partner being late, just to stay with that example. Like, what is the meaning I have about that? Why do I feel so offended by that? Right. There's always an opportunity for me to explore myself in that. Well, what did being on time mean for my for me and my family growing up? Right? What, why am I feeling so offended by my partner just because they're not on time? Why am I not able to move into compassion for my partner's reality, right? Who grew up with something completely different that probably makes it make sense that they're they don't worry about being on time. Right. And there's there's these ways that I think we're always looking for opportunities to move into compassion and understanding to help people see like there's some reason why it makes sense. And if I'm getting triggered, that's my problem. And and I say that in a way to be empowering. Like I'm not waiting for my partner to change in order for me to feel okay in the world. I want to figure out how do I take full responsibility for myself because that's what's going to feel the healthiest in a relationship when I can start showing up in that way.

SPEAKER_03 33:43

Mm-hmm. Yeah, really powerful, Shane. How can I now on the flip side, how can clients? We have a lot of listeners who thought about therapy or going to therapists, how can clients get the most from their marriage to therapy? You know, what what's fair to request from their therapist?

SPEAKER_00 34:01

That that's a great question. Um, you know, I think that um there's part of me that wants to say that um, you know, hopefully you find a therapist who has the skills to guide you and navigate you in the right direction. You know, I I think that uh again the more you're focusing here here's how I look at it. Like there are a lot of I was just talking to this couple read um yesterday, and um you know, they were they were talking about uh drinking, and the um the there had been a number of situations where the wife felt unsafe in situations where the husband had been drinking. And the um the husband's doing an amazing job. He he had given up drinking for the last four months, and it was making the relationship feel a lot better, a lot safer. That was really working well. And he was talking about, well, I really want to um maybe incorporate drinking into my life again. And the um the wife was like, Well, that makes me feel really unsafe. And the the husband said, Well, I don't want to feel like I have to ask permission to if I if I'm out with my friends, I want to have a drink if I want to have a drink. And I said, It's it's not, you know, so that's the meaning that he's bringing to it.

unknown 35:36

Right.

Rapid Fire: Myths, Questions, Respect

SPEAKER_00 35:37

And I was able to sort of reframe the conversation because, and I use this example. If if I wake up on Sunday morning and I want to go to the hardware store, um I have a conversation with my wife about it. It's not because she's in charge, it's not because I have to ask permission, it's because I have made a decision to be in a relationship with another human being. And we have children together and we have a lot of considerations about what's going to happen that day. And it's just uh it's just part of being relational to say, honey, I'd really like to go to the hardware store today. What does our schedule look like, right? Or what did you have in mind that you wanted to get done? Or would you like to go with me? Or, you know, I can take the kids during this time, if you can take them during this time, so I can go to the hardware store. You know, however that looks, it's just being relational in the conversation. It's not because I'm being controlled. Now, I'm giving this example to sort of shed light on the fact that all of us have these triggers or meaning that's going on in our head. Like, here are the things that my partner is doing that's preventing me from what I want in my life. And I think there's always ways we can change that meaning. So, back to your question. If if I'm a couple, I'm going to therapy, I want to get the most out of my therapy, I want to be really responsible about how I'm sharing what's going on for me. I want to share with the therapist, this is my perspective, this is my reality, this is where I'm having a hard time, this is what I really want. And I would encourage people to be honest. Like, like, even if you think it feels out of reach, like tell the therapist what your ideal relationship would look like if you could just have it all, what that would look like, right? Because I think that's important for your therapist to know. And don't hold back on that. And if it feels like there's too many things that have been getting in the way of that, that's okay. Right. I think it's important for people to have a vision and hopefully that the couple can create a shared vision that might be more difficult, but hopefully the therapist can guide you toward that so that um you both have a clear sense of like, what are each of like like when we leave this therapy office, going, we have to go back to our day-to-day lives for the next week or two weeks or whatever. Like, what is my what are my what's my job? What are my goals? What are the things that I'm doing to work on to make sure I'm showing up in the relationship? And the things that my partner is doing might be very different. They might have very different things that they're working on than and that they're doing, and that's okay, but I'm only focusing on what I success is defined by whether I'm following through on myself, not whether you know my partner is doing what they're supposed to do. We'll be right back after this brief message.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_04 38:44

Okay, Shane. So here's just um towards the end here of our interview, I'm just gonna do some rapid fire questions for you, okay? Just quick answers. You ready?

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Great. Great.

SPEAKER_04 38:53

What's a relationship, what's a relationship myth you wish would disappear forever?

SPEAKER_00 39:00

Oh, yeah, I think I think I would say that my partner is responsible for my feelings. Ah, good job. Right? Um if I if I come home and at the end of the day, my wife and I have both been working all day. I walk in the door, and I just want a hug, right? And my partner, the last thing that she wants at that moment is a hug. And and she's in the middle of in the middle of 10 things and doing something else that I would encourage people not to play the blame game. It's not like there's a right or wrong, right? Like me feeling bad that she doesn't give me a hug. The solution to that is not getting a hug. The solution is for me to take a look at myself and to say, why am I feeling upset about this? And how can I I can probably do things to create more hugs in in my life with my partner, but it's not coming from a place of blame or judgment or right or wrong thinking.

SPEAKER_04 40:00

You should do this for me, right? That kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_04 40:04

Yeah. Okay, next one. What's your favorite question to ask a couple in session?

Where To Find Shane And Closing

SPEAKER_00 40:10

I guess I was just saying it like I love asking, what do you what do you really want? What are you really hoping for? You know, I love to get a vision of um what their ideal looks like. And sometimes couples have been stuck for so long, they've forgotten what that looks like. It's also really fun to ask people what was it like when you met each other? Um to to to get them back into some of the memories of what they like about each other.

SPEAKER_04 40:37

So true. All right, last one, my friend. What do you hope couples remember most from your your work long after the sessions are over?

SPEAKER_00 40:47

I I mean I I think that um I talk I talk to people sometimes about making a commitment to full respect living. Um that I have like I won't like most of us have made a commitment, for example, that I will never punch another person in the face. Right? Like that's that's kind of an easy boundary that I've that that's easy for me to follow through on for the most part. That um, you know, as I'm walking through the world, like I am not going to impart physical harm on another human being, right? And I would take that a step further to my intention is to never impart even emotional or psychological harm on another human being or or myself in my own head. Uh right. And so the problem with that is that, or it's not a pro it's not a problem. I just want people to have flexibility around that because inevitably I do things that are hurtful to my partner or to my kids or to other people. And I don't want people to be too hard on themselves. Everybody makes mistakes, but I have a commitment. If I do that to someone else, I'm not going to try to convince myself that I that I didn't do it. I want to try to be accountable and show up in a respectful way and listen and repair and apologize. And um, but but I'm trying to make a commitment as I move through the world, no matter what, you know, no matter how my wife is talking to me or how I perceive that she's talking to me, I'm not going to move away from my commitment to being fully respectful in the way that I show up at all times.

SPEAKER_04 42:34

To self and to others. I think that's really very cool. You have so much to share with the world, dear Shane. Where can our listeners go to find out more about you and the tremendous resources you offer?

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I have a podcast called The Couples Therapist Couch that people, you know, there's I've I forget over 250 episodes at this point. People can go and uh look at the titles and see what resonates for them and learn more about how to have a healthy relationship. Or if you're a therapist, how to work with couples. And um, for therapists, I do I also do a lot of teaching of therapists. I have a membership called the Couples Therapist Inner Circle, where uh I teach therapists how to work with couples. Uh and the website is couples therapist couch.com.

SPEAKER_04 43:20

I love that. We're gonna put that on our contact or we're gonna put that contact on our show notes for an easy fine, Shane. Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_03 43:28

Hey Shane, as we wrap up, we'd like to ask each of our guests a couple of questions, starting with the first one in honor of the name of our podcast, Stronger Marriage Connection. What do you feel like is a a key to a stronger marriage connection?

SPEAKER_00 43:41

Yeah, absolutely. I mean I think that that I think one of the challenges is like, how do I feel the freedom for myself as a human being in the context of being in a relationship like the hardware example I I described? Right. And I think that can be a challenge for people. So how do I uh have a lot of consideration for my partner and try to move into compassion for their reality? But also how do I have a voice about what's important to me and how do I do that with respect?

SPEAKER_03 44:18

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's really wise. Love it, love it. And the second question, uh, we call it our takeaway of the day. If you have a take-home message from our discussion, something you want our listeners to remember, what would that be?

SPEAKER_00 44:31

Yeah, I guess along the lines of what we're talking about, I think part of it comes from the idea that I believe every single human being is inherently valuable, right? So every single human being is worthy. And so, you know, especially if you're talking about the person that you're sharing your life with, like how do I make them feel valued? How do I be considerate of what's going on for them? And also on my side of it, how do I value myself and feel worthy enough to have a voice about what's important to me and what I want and have boundaries, right? If I do feel hurt by my partner, to have healthy boundaries and say, hey, this isn't working for me, because that's a very uh authentic, respectful thing for people to do as well. And that's an example of valuing myself in the context of the relationship.

SPEAKER_03 45:21

Mm-hmm. Yeah, love it. What about you, Liz? What's your takeaway of the day today with uh Shane Burkle?

SPEAKER_04 45:27

Yeah, it's there's many things here, but I I really love that phrase of full respect living. You know, as doctors often make that that promise of doing do no harm, right? And I think for all of us as therapists, even we want to do no harm, whether that's to ourselves or to another. I really love that. When I, you know, I'm on my partner's back. Usually it's kind of because I'm on my own back too. So to kind of get off my own back to be a better partner, it seems like. What about you, Dave? What's your greatest takeaway from our time today with Shane Burkle?

SPEAKER_03 45:59

Yeah, Shane, this has been really helpful. I I love this as I've been kind of thinking about stewing on this idea that each of us has a story, right? A story from the past or story, we're creating a story right now. That example that you shared of the husband, you know, not wanting to really it's difficult to emotionally connect and sharing my emotions. But for her to hear that story, I think it creates um understanding. And I think understanding can lead to empathy and compassion and seeing someone differently, we then feel differently, we treat them differently when we can aim for understanding of each other's um stories. I think then sometimes we can get stuck on behaviors and not look at some of this vulnerability these deep uh needs, right? And some of those stem from from our stories. So uh that really stood out to me uh today, Shane. So thank you. Absolutely. Well, Shane, you've been very generous uh with your time and your man your expertise. Uh, we could go for hours and hours, my friend, but we uh thank you sincerely for coming on and sharing so much wisdom with us today.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This has been a great conversation. Uh so fun to talk about relationships with other uh uh people in the field.

SPEAKER_03 47:12

Yeah, yeah, it's a joy for us as well, my friend. Well, all right, friends, thanks for joining us this time, and we will see you next time on another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection Podcast.

SPEAKER_04 47:22

And remember, it's the small things that create a stronger marriage connection. Take really good care of you and each other now. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_03 47:32

Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us a favor and take a second to subscribe to our podcast and the Utah Marriage Commission YouTube channel at Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the show. Be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment, and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at StrongerMarriageWife and Facebook at Stronger Marriage. So be sure to share with us which topics you loved, which guests we should have on the show next. If you want even more resources to improve your marriage or relationship connection, visit strongermarriage.org where you'll find free workshops, e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys, and more. Each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, Rex Polanis, and the team at Utah State University, and you, our audience. You make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions, and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.