Untangling Codependency in Relationships: How To Heal and Reconnect | Payton Holt | #165

We unpack how codependency hides inside “helping,” why rescuing backfires, and how to build self-compassion, boundaries, and interdependence. Therapist Peyton Holt shares concrete tools for couples and parents to trade control for empathy and create safer, stronger bonds.

• clear definition of codependency and why it’s common
• five core symptoms from Pia Mellody’s framework
• the fix-it cycle and why relief reinforces rescuing
• parenting patterns, enabling, and natural consequences
• shame spirals, taking feedback personally, eggshell walking
• self-compassion as the foundation of change
• rebuilding inside-out self-esteem and saying no
• partner playbook for support and shared language
• “the story I’m telling myself” for de-escalation
• treatment timelines, workshops, and group support

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Transcript

Welcome And Why Codependency Matters

SPEAKER_03 0:03

Today, I'm joined by Peyton Holt to unpack a topic that quietly affects so many couples: codependency. We'll explore where codependent patterns come from, how they show up in our relationships, and what healing looks like in real life therapy. Peyton will also walk us through how partners can support each other and what couples can do to build healthier, more balanced, interdependent connections. Peyton Holt is a licensed marriage and family therapist and the owner of the Relationship Institute in Spanish Fork, Utah. He specializes in helping individuals and couples navigate codependency, roommate syndrome, and the spectrum between high conflict and total avoidance. Peyton also leads community workshops on communication and hosts a women's group focused on healing from codependency. When he's not in the therapy room, he's usually on a ball field, out fishing, or enjoying movie theater popcorn with his wife and three kids. We hope you enjoy the show. Hey there, friends. Welcome to another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection Podcast. I'm Dr. Dave here at Utah State University. And Liz is out today, so it's gonna be me and our guest today, which I'll tell you about here shortly. Okay, it's not often, friends, that we actually have a guest from my hometown of Good Old Payson, Utah. So I discovered we both attended Payson High. I'm much older for sure, but that's a fun connection. So I'm excited for our discussion today. We're joined by marriage family therapist Peyton Holt, who now practices in Spanish Fork, Utah, to explore a topic that touches far more people than we often acknowledge, and that is codependency. What is it? Where does it come from? And how does it play out in everyday relationships? We'll be sure to answer those questions and others today. But first, welcome to the show, Peyton.

SPEAKER_05 2:00

Thank you, Dr. Dave. Really grateful to be here.

Defining Codependency And Core Symptoms

SPEAKER_03 2:03

Yeah, so grateful to have you on. Looking forward to our discussion today. Peyton from Payson. I love it. I love it. Hey, can we start our discussion today, Peyton, by defining codependency? I think it's a word that is tossed around a lot of people hear, but I think it'd be helpful for our listeners. You know, what is it exactly and how common is it in for couples?

SPEAKER_05 2:24

Yeah. Um, great. Let me tackle that second part first. So, how common is it? Um, so codependency is not technically in the the DSM, so it's not a diagnosis that um a therapist can technically give to somebody like you could with depression or anxiety or uh bipolar or something like that. So, because of that, I don't think there's been a lot of research power behind really figuring out what codependency is. So some of the things I'm gonna give you are more anecdotal, like just in my experience. Um, I found that the codependency shows up a lot more often than people are aware of. Um, I've had many people uh that I see who come in and are kind of surprised to learn that they have some of these traits of codependency. Um and it it's actually helpful to recognize it, learn about it. But um I've also noticed uh just in my own practice that tend to be higher rates among women than men. That could just be my own experience. Again, it's anecdotal. Uh still have seen a number of bandwidth codependency as well. Um I'm gonna go into that definition piece because you're you're totally right. Codependency gets tossed around. Um, there's we've got these kind of social media buzzwords. Uh, this kind of fits in that narcissism category, those words we just love to throw out all the time. Um, but not a lot of people actually understand what codependency is. So, first I'll tell you what it isn't. The most common social media definition that I've I've picked up on is people often think that codependency is just I need someone to survive. I gotta have a partner, I can't be alone. And and that's how they define it. So a lot of people, when they look at that definition, they're like, yeah, that's not me. I'm I love being by myself. Um, but there's a whole lot more to it. So uh I've come up with a a two-part definition um that uh has gathered it from a whole bunch of other resources that I've read, tried to really define it in a way that makes sense for people. So here's this definition that I use. First part of this is that others' behaviors and emotions impact me far more than they should, to the point that I seek to manage other people's behaviors by managing their emotions. Um and the second part is I have a need to be needed, meaning I feel value when I do things for others, and I question my value when others reject my offerings, or I don't feel like I've been productive enough. Um this is a they they play into each other, these two parts of the definition. Um, and and hopefully we'll expound on this a little bit more. Like, you know, what does that actually mean? But before we do that, I want to share one other thing that I found very helpful. So a resource, my favorite resource comes from Pia Melody, her work. Um, she's been kind of groundbreaking in this world of codependency and uh wrote a book called Facing Codependence, one I'll reference a little bit throughout this. Um, and she's listed out five common core symptoms. Um this part I I kind of see as like if it were to be in the DSM, it would be like this is how you're gonna really diagnose what this looks like. So um she defines it as struggling with five different things. Struggling with one, healthy levels of self-esteem, two, struggling with setting functional boundaries, three, struggling with owning and expressing your reality, four, struggling with knowing and meeting your own adult needs and wants, and five, struggling with experiencing and expressing your reality. So those are the there's a lot to unpack there, but to answer your question of like how do we define it, those are the the ways that I I've come to define it in my practice.

SPEAKER_03 6:50

Okay, yeah, super helpful, Peyton. I mean, I I I'm not a therapist, right? I'm a family scholar, family life education specialist up here, and so yeah, some of this is new to me, but man, it I I hear some of these and I'm thinking, yeah, in fact, a lot of females that I know, uh a lot of those symptoms and and uh behaviors and emotions, man, it's it's sure I mean true.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

We'll be right back after this brief message.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

And we're back.

Real-Life Patterns And The Fixing Cycle

SPEAKER_03 7:27

Let's dive right in. So, can you dive in, dig in a little bit more with that? I mean, what does it actually look like? Can you give us some examples and and even how would I you know recognize that in my in myself or even in others?

SPEAKER_05 7:42

Yeah. So uh I'll kind of break down those two definitions to give some more specific examples. That the definition that I created than Pia's list of symptoms. Um, first part, um I've got this kind of wheel of codependency that I use as an assessment tool that gives some direct examples of this. So again, attaching to that that first definition of others' behaviors and emotions impact me far more than they should to the point I seek to manage others' behaviors by managing their emotions. So, what that looks like um someone has an uncomfortable emotion. A friend, a sibling, uh a child, your partner, um, someone has it just an uncomfortable emotion, whether it's coming towards you or they're just experiencing it. Um, what that will trigger is this gut response of I have to fix this. I gotta do something. I don't like that this person's uncomfortable. I gotta do something about it. Okay, so that gut response then leads into uh these problem-solving actions. So you start going to work, you're giving out solutions, you're figuring out how to solve things. Um, and sometimes that's verbally, like you're just giving some feedback and saying, Well, you've done this, you tried that. Um, other times it's actually doing things for somebody, right? I'm gonna go out and and take care of this because I know this was this was a stress for you, or this is a struggle, so I'm just gonna go do this for you. Um I don't know, I think an example is you know, your kid calls you up and tells you I just got my first speeding ticket and I don't know what to do. Um this kind of wheel of codependency, your first response is, oh no, I don't like that you're uncomfortable. So uh here's what you gotta do. Or you know what, just stop by my place, hand me the ticket, I'll go take care of it uh later today, right? Um so as it keeps going, there's kind of two branches. One, the person that you're trying to solve things for rejects those solutions, or they they they don't accept it, or they're defensive to it. Um what that leads to is feelings of uh like lack of value, wondering am I good enough? Is there something wrong with what I'm doing? Right, you get really frustrated, and often though you'll find yourself just stewing on that problem. Uh sometimes for hours, for days, you might circle back and start thinking of other ways to solve it, right? It it just it weighs on you. Uh you're owning that uh that person's own responsibility or their emotions. Now the other way this goes is the person accepts it, they accept your offerings, your solutions, um your problem solving, and now they feel better. And because they feel better, ultimately you feel better. And that that's like a a big aha moment for a lot of the clients that I I work with is realizing that that whole cycle is really about me feeling better in the end. It it seems like I'm doing this because I love you and I care about you, and uh right, there's this altruistic feeling, and I'm not gonna say that that's false, because I I do think there really is true care and love there, but ultimately I think it's driven by this desire of to to feel comfortable again. Because I'm uncomfortable when you're uncomfortable. So I'm gonna go to work to figure all that out and help me feel comfortable again. Um that's the yeah, that that's how you look at the the practical application of what does that look like, at least from that definition um that I've created. And you you'll notice in that that it does create this this need to be needed. When you start solving everyone else's problems, people start coming to you more to solve more of their problems. Um, and that makes you feel good because you feel needed.

SPEAKER_04 12:37

Yeah. I can yeah, go ahead.

Parenting Traps And Enabling

SPEAKER_03 12:39

I want to keep that. Yeah, I I can see some of our listeners being like, yeah, this this sounds like parenting, right? This is like this is mothering, but that's what mothers do, right? And and we want to care for or pick up, and and we don't want to see our our children hurt or struggle, and so we want to be there and and help them and save them any way that we can. And I I think you're right, like deep down, it's like you know, from this compassion or this love and and wanting them to uh not have to suffer. Um, but ultimately, I mean, this pattern continues. It could start right even with a a baby, uh, you know, and then younger kids and then adult children. I think you know, some of our listeners would be like, huh, that sounds just like my mom, right? How is this ultimately how does this affect relationships? I mean, because there's there's gonna be some with either way, with you know, the the person saying, no, no, no, you know, don't worry about it, you know, mom or dad or whatever. I I've got this ticket or whatever it is, you know, with relationships or any kind of struggle that they're they're going through, like it's a natural tendency for a parent to oh, you know, want to jump in and and help. So whether they reject that or they they accept that, tell us a little bit about the dynamics. I mean, ultimately, because on the outside, it's like, oh, no, that's that's great. That's what a parent should do. But to walk us through that a little bit more when when that pattern um I mean continues for months, years, right?

Taking Things Personally And Shame Spirals

SPEAKER_05 14:04

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I I think you're you're seeing that, that there's there certainly is a level of dependence that comes with kids. Um, right? When you've got an infant, you have to do everything for them. And toddlers still, you're doing everything for them. Um, but this parenting piece you've brought up, I've I've seen that it is uh it actually like pulls out these, if there are any codependent tendencies, parenting is gonna really pull them out, pull them to the forefront. Um because as you go, it it starts out with these well-intentioned, I don't want my kid to suffer. I don't want them to to feel bad or to hurt. But it what often happens is you end up overprotecting them. You end up doing too much, right? They they come to you, um, and you know, your freshman in high school finally start to focus on their grades, and they come to you at the end of the semester and they say, uh, I totally forgot that I've got this huge assignment due tomorrow, and I really haven't done anything. Uh right. That codependent part of you is gonna want to jump in and say, you know what, don't worry about it. We're gonna run over here and we're gonna do this and that and this, and we're gonna get it all together, and I'm gonna do it all for you, and you're gonna get an A still. Um rather than being able to have a teaching moment where you talk to your kid about procrastination and preparation and allowing them to face some of the natural consequences of their own decisions. And when you save your kids over and over from the natural consequences, you end up doing what we call enabling. You're enabling behaviors that may actually be dysfunctional or harmful. Um, this is uh especially seen in more of the dramatic cases where you've got a child who maybe starts abusing substances and you continue to provide them money because they're requesting money, and they say it's for this, or they say it's for that, and you just never say no to them, um but you end up just enabling more of those negative patterns. So that that's one area that's pretty big and impacts the parent-child relationship in a lot of ways. But now you add in like having a partner, and your partner is seeing some of these overprotective, uh maybe enabling behaviors. And what often happens is your partner will try to overcompensate. So now they'll go to the other side of the spectrum and they'll show up in kind of authoritarian or harsh ways, right? Where they'll they're they feel like they've they have to teach their kids a lesson because over here they're escaping that lesson. Um and now you start getting a lot of tension between the couple, the parents, right, as they're starting to battle between uh you're too harsh, well, you're too soft, and um uh that creates difficulty, right? And now the kids are seeing difficulty there, and um and and now you're uh feeling a little bit more down um because of this tension, and now you're showing up a little different in your relationships with friends, and um that's just kind of one angle. There's a lot of different angles. Um I'll share one other thing that I've I've seen which is common is for people who have um these patterns of codependency, uh they tend to take things pretty personally. Um so every little thing someone says or does can get to them. And that makes it hard for people to give you feedback. People will feel like they kind of walk on eggshells around you, which is ironic because the codependent person feels that way too. They're they're feeling like they're walking on eggshells trying to manage everyone else's emotions. Um but uh what often happens is when you take things, any sort of feedback personally, then it it explodes, it blows up, right? An example, I I had a client uh send an email to their in-laws dealing with some family drama, and their partner simply stated, I wish you would have run that by me before sending that email. Um on the face, seems pretty reasonable, but when you take it personally, like this client did in that moment, it got really intense, right? This activated this kind of shame tailspin. They started questioning, what's wrong with me? Why didn't I do that? I I must have messed something up, I I'm not a good partner, I'm a terrible person, right? They start spiraling and their their partner seeing that do this, and from their partner's eyes, this feels like an overreaction. Um just saying I wish you would have glued me in. I'm not saying you're a terrible person. Um, right, and so it gets to the point where the partner thinks to themselves, man, I should have never said something. So now your your partner becomes nervous or or hesitant to even give you feedback about things because you may just take it personally and and kind of blow it up bigger than it needs to be.

SPEAKER_03 19:53

Yeah, man, these are great great examples. Yeah, that I I've just kind of witnessed even with parents around me. With that first example of the parent, you know, being extra soft and giving everything, then another parent coming in a little bit more harsh. And then so I've even seen some parents just kind of sneakily be like, hey, okay, hey, you know, just so the other parent doesn't find out, or you're slipping some money, or kind of doing some of these almost behind the scenes, you know, don't let them find out because I'm the kind of the nice one or compassionate one, and he he's pretty strict, or or vice versa, with the parents. But um, and then that can that can't be helpful at all. I mean, ultimately, that puts a wedge in the the couple relationship, uh, let alone, yeah, the the parent-child relationship. Again, thinking these are good intentions, and I want to help this this child or this uh uh who's struggling, and I want I don't want to see them yeah, struggle with these these emotions.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

We'll be right back after this brief message.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_03 21:07

I'm curious, Peyton. Um, do you think that some of this stems from um even the parents? Maybe they didn't have it all. Maybe they were raised, you know, didn't have kind uh parents, or we didn't have a lot of money or resources, and I couldn't play sports or do any of these activities, you know, back in my day. So I want to make sure that my child, you know, doesn't have to struggle. They they want to have all these opportunities. You know what I mean? I'm saying it almost kind of the the pendulum is swung, and I just want to give them the world because I didn't have it. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_05 21:38

Yeah. Yeah, I I think it can for sure. We we certainly have that tendencies as humans to go from one end of a spectrum to another. Excuse me. Um, but uh one end of going from one end of this dysfunction to the other is also dysfunction. Um right, just keep swinging it. And yeah, we do that's a generational thing. Very commonly experience one thing, like I'm never gonna do that with my kids. And you end up going too far. And uh I think generally generationally, yeah, you look back um, you know, 50, 60 years, and that generation of parents, broadly speaking, tended to be more strict, um, tended to have harsher punishments, uh, more physical punishments. Um, and you didn't talk a lot about how you were actually feeling. There's a lot of topics that were just taboo, you didn't talk about in general. So I I think we've seen a swing, right? And a common phrase these days is gentle parenting. Right? We've gone from one end to the other um trying to avoid that. But uh I also think uh some of these these traits of codependency uh stem from other things um still related to our childhood. Right? A lot of what we experience as adults are things that are came out of our experience as kids and as teens. So a a really common one that I've noticed is something in in childhood that compares um their value with what they can do for others or their performance. Um and it it's often not intentional, it's not parents who are intentionally giving this message that you're only good if you get A's. There's just kind of something inside that child that interpreted it that way, and so they began to believe that I'm only as good as what I can do for other people or how well I can perform. And that really alters the view of oneself, changes that kind of core self-esteem, um, and leads people to experience a lot of shame if they're not living up to that. Uh, and that becomes a big driver for continuing to do things for others because that that's how they feel good about themselves. Um and that leaks into the parenting piece like like you're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

I'm curious, Nod, thanks for all these I think wonderful examples. I think our listeners are going to be able to relate either as maybe as an adult child and drinking, they're thinking, man, my my this is describes my parent to a tea or whatever, or uh another listener is like, ah, this is me, maybe as a mom or as a parent. Or can you walk us through um, I mean, we wouldn't have time obviously to walk through the entire treatment plan, Peyton, but can you give us an idea almost from the three perspectives? You know, let's say that I'm a 22, 23, 25 year old or whatever, and I'm thinking, man, yeah, this is my, you know, how can I be different? Um, because this this is my parent you're talking about here, or even from you know a parent perspective, if they're here on this, they're like, holy smokes, I didn't I've heard that word, but that that is actually me too. All those those behaviors and emotions, that that is me. Um walk us through some of the, I don't know, the treatment plan or or what does that look like in with therapy? I mean, how do you how do you help someone with that?

Facing The Problem And Self-Compassion

Rebuilding Self-Esteem And Boundaries

SPEAKER_05 25:23

Yeah. Great question. So um my first thing is acknowledgement. I'm a big believer that you really can't change a problem until you acknowledge that there is a problem. Um and that's a big part of uh Pia Melody's work that I've referenced, that book Facing Codependence. That's pretty foundational, I think, um, because it's in the name of the that title, right? The whole thing she talks about is you've got to face it. And I found that to be true with the clients that I work with. You have to be willing to first face it and accept um that codependency is happening. This is actually a really difficult piece for many. Um it's it's very scary because most people who experience codependency are all too familiar with shame. Uh by shame I mean that feeling of like I'm not enough, I'm not good enough. Um, so it's super scary to face this because it feels like by doing so that you're essentially taking responsibility for any dysfunction in any of your relationships. And it's like, oh, well, it's all my fault because of this codependency stuff. Um, and that's too big to bear. And I I believe that it is too big to bear, and it's not all yours. Truth is not all the hard things happening in your relationships are all your fault, but that's just what it feels like when you start to face this. Um so a big part of this treatment process involves self-compassion. Um, being able to to sit with yourself and and be compassionate with yourself. And I found that for a lot of people who experience codependency, empathy is actually one of their superpowers. They're really empathetic. They don't want people to feel bad, and they feel that, they take it on when someone else is hurting, they they can take this on, and they can they are some of the most compassionate people on the planet. The irony is they struggle to give themselves any compassion. Hardly night that inner voice is so critical, so judgmental. Um and so learning to to give themselves the same compassion that they freely give to others by giving to themselves is a big starting point, especially with facing codependency in general and and all the implications. So that leads into rebuilding their self-esteem. Um I think that that this becomes a very core part of treatment. It's rebuilding from the inside out because for most their self-esteem has been outside in. Right? I am I feel good about me when I think others feel good about me. I feel good about me when I'm succeeding, being super productive, and checking off all those boxes on my checklist every day. Um but that's all outside in. Right? The inside out is embracing what what I believe is a spiritual truth that all humans have the same innate value. Not any human comes to this earth with any more or any less value than the next. And there's nothing you can do or not do that will change that inherent value. It's unchanging, stays the same all the time, just for being you and as people are able to really grasp that and not just intellectually, right? I've got a lot of clients who say, like, yeah, I'm I mean, I get that, that makes sense in my head, but I don't believe it in my heart. Um that's the the the difficulty. So a lot of it the actual treatment, the therapy is about getting that message from the head down to the heart, and that comes through repetition, repetition of self-compassion, repetition of uh positive affirmations, um, repetition of challenging every shame thought um or belief that comes up. Um and that that takes time. But as someone is able to do that, then they're able to to feel good about who they are, which makes it a whole lot easier to start developing functional and healthy boundaries in their life. One of the common difficulties for anyone experiencing codependency is being able to say the word no. Um it feels really guilty and hard to say no to somebody. Um and so that often overstretches people and they take on way more than they can handle because they don't want to let anyone down. And um when you don't feel good about you, having boundaries is very hard. It's easy to have it flipped back and you question, am I even right in having this boundary? Maybe it maybe me trying to have this boundary is the problem. Uh but when you feel more secure about yourself, you've built your self-esteem, then it that that kind of powers your ability to have healthy boundaries and to be able to say no in a loving way and not feel all shamefilled or guilty about it. Um so that that I don't know, that's kind of a brief overview of what that treatment process looks like. There's certainly more to it and doing actual therapy and support groups and codependence anonymous, right? There's tons of resources that can all support that. But that's kind of a 40,000-foot view of what that process looks like.

SPEAKER_03 31:37

Yeah, super helpful, um, Peyton. I appreciate that. I I can see that this is um this can be challenging. I mean, like other struggles and problems, because the it takes work and kind of you know the the natural person in us just wants to, it's it's just much easier to have the compassion and call it compassion and just help, help, help, even though it's not ultimately helping and it's not helping me. But man, it takes it takes that real change, it takes work and probably consistency, and then maybe I'm gonna slip and then okay, and then come back to this and boundaries and learning to say no, because it's much easier to say say yes, right? So change, this requires intentional, probably consistent um work and then knowing, yeah, man, I'm gonna I'm gonna struggle and slide down a little bit. But that that persistent, because then I guess when they slide and they you know do give in, then maybe the shame kicks in again because now it's like, oh, you know, I'm going to therapy or I'm receiving, I know I shouldn't have done that, but they just really needed that type do you see those types of shame slides almost when they're even trying to be better?

SPEAKER_05 32:47

Yeah, all the time. All the time. That that's why that really grasping that self-compassion skill is so important because yeah, that's just so easy to slide back and forth, just like you're saying. Um, but as you develop more of that compassion, that kindness for oneself, then you can give yourself a break. Just like you would anyone else, right? There's a your best friend were dealing with the same issue, you wouldn't beat him up. You'd be like, Oh, come on, you're doing just fine. Sure, you slipped. That's okay, that's part of the process. Keep going. That same message you so easily give to your friend is this very message you have to give to yourself.

unknown 33:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:32

Walk me through a little bit more of that. That's interesting because even as a partner, let's say that the my partner, my spouse, is the one who's just really struggling with this, and then maybe I'm I'm at home and I see, oh, here's a situation between my wife, my adult child, let's say, and you know, me as a partner being like, hey, no, no, no, remember what you learned, you can't do that. You know, type of I can see that kind of creating even more contention there. How can partners, I guess, support each other through this? Both both partners, you know, because they both play a role in this.

Partner Support And Shared Language

SPEAKER_05 34:04

Yeah. Um, so I think uh what I'm gonna say is similar to the gotta acknowledge there's a problem to be able to work on a problem. It's super important for partners to become aware of what codependency really is. And that I think that's half the battle, just understanding those patterns and symptoms. Learn about it, read books, listen to podcasts, get educated, um, because that's gonna be a big strength. Um, and so as you're what you highlighted, it's a big part of it. Like, be patient and understanding on both sides. These patterns took decades to develop, they're not gonna disappear overnight. Um, and so just having some assurance that you're both committed to it, that you're you're both working to support each other. And you know, I I tell couples I work with, you need to define specific language that is language of support, right? In that moment where the one partner is saying, Oh, I see you sliding with this kid and you're starting to rescue. You've got to have some language that you've already decided on that you can say that in a way that's not gonna trigger some of that shame or defensiveness, but will be a really a friendly reminder, a helpful reminder. Hey, I'm here and I want to support you, and I see that you're kind of struggling. Um, you know, a phrase I I think this was coined by Renee Brown, um popular one, but I I love this phrase, the story I'm telling myself. I will teach my clients on both sides, person is experiencing the codependency, partner is not, to use this phrase to clarify situations. Um, because often by doing this, you could like nip an issue right in the bud, right from the get-go. Um so it's some examples of what that would actually look like, right? Um partner A, not experiencing codependency, tells to partner B, I've got some feedback for you, and you know, I don't like the way you handle this situation with uh our child. Um tendency for partner B is to take that personally and start to feel shameful about how they they did something wrong and they're not good enough. And if partner A notices that, they can say something like, Hey, the story I'm telling myself is that you're taking my feedback really personally, maybe even feeling like I'm attacking you. Is that true? Um, right? And then you get to deal with it right there in the moment, because partner B can be like, uh, yeah, isn't that what you're doing? You're attacking me. No, no, no, no, right? You can just deal with it. Or on the flip side, partner B can use that same tool to get to uh uh the heart of something, right? They can excuse me, they can say the story I'm telling myself is that you meant to hurt my feelings when you said that. Um and now partner A can be like, uh no, I'm so sorry, that that was not my intention. Or if it was, they can own it, be like, yeah, you know what, that was not right of me. Let me rephrase this. Um so that becomes a really helpful way to create dialogue around these traits of codependency. Because as you use that phrase, the story I'm telling myself, you take out the accusations, you take out the character assassination. You're just simply letting someone into your own inner world, saying, This is what I'm thinking, right or wrong, this is what I'm thinking right now.

SPEAKER_03 37:56

So when you're helping, I'm guessing, Peyton, that this is a couple thing, right? I mean, because they they both need to be aware of this to know how I mean, really they can help each other with those types of conversations and you know, helpful patient conversations rather than the blaming and then shaming um pattern that's going on. Are we talking like uh is this weeks, months, years? I guess it really depends couple from couple, but kind of what's your approach?

SPEAKER_05 38:23

Yeah, you're talking more of like the uh the actual treatment of coupled experiencing this. Yeah. Um so my approach, um months is probably more in that area. Uh again, this is decades to create, so weeks is hard to get real change, but months for sure, yeah. Somewhere in that that three to six month time frame is often how long I'll be working with couples, enough to bring out a lot of these um tendencies, enough to show the patterns, and enough for them to understand and learn some new tools and skills on how to communicate. But I I often build in quite a bit of individual work through that process to help the person experiencing codependency to really recognize it more in their own life and the underlying parts, like why they go through that. Um at times I like having the partner there to witness some of that work, and in other times it's nice to just be able to work with that person.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

Yeah, yeah. We'll be right back after this brief message.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_03 39:53

Wow, this has been uh so helpful. Peyton, you're the the director of the Relationship Institute in Spanish Forth, Utah. Can you tell us about The institute, what you do, any other resources you offer, how people can can find out more about you.

Treatment Timeline And Individual Work

SPEAKER_05 40:06

Yeah, yeah, of course. So um at the Relationship Institute, we try to practice what it says in our name. We're all everything to do with relationships. Marriage, family, um even just individually if you're struggling with certain relationships. Um we offer therapy and all those modalities, individual couples, family therapy. Um we also offer workshops, uh workshops for couples mostly workshops about um learning better communication skills, workshops related to overcoming roommate syndrome. Um and uh I do offer some groups as well. So group therapy, the one that uh we're hoping to get started again here in the new year, is a women's healing codependency group. It's a powerful group where you're able to connect with other women who've experienced similar things, and there's such power being able to hear other stories and recognize I'm not alone. I'm not the only one struggling with this. Um, and that becomes powerful. So, in terms of trying to connect with uh the Relationship Institute, we have our website, uh Relationship InstituteUCon.com. Um, my contact information is on their phone number, my email address. Um reaching out through any of those ways is a good way to get contact.

SPEAKER_03 41:39

Yeah, wonderful. Thanks so much, Peyton. Hey, before we let you go, we'd like to ask all of our questions, uh, or all of our guests a couple of questions. And the first question is related to the the really the name of our podcast, Stronger Marriage Connection. In your mind, what is I don't know the key, but what is a key uh to a stronger marriage connection?

SPEAKER_05 42:00

No, I'm gonna answer this from this angle of codependency that we've been talking about, um, which is to lean into empathy over problem solving every time. Start with empathy. Um there's so many interactions that uh just get we get way off track. They end up becoming an argument when they don't need to be, if we could just start with empathy, learn to listen. Learn to to be able to say like, ah, that sounds so hard. I'm sorry you're going through that. Even asking, what what do you need from me? Do you need some help figuring this out? Do you just need me to give you a hug? Um I that empathy piece is so big and it's bonding. When we express and feel empathy, it it bonds us together. That would be my uh one go-to for a good strategy for relationships.

SPEAKER_03 43:04

Yeah, oh man, you're speaking speaking my language, my friend. Yeah, I love that empathy, compassion. So critically important. Uh and then we'll wrap up with your takeaway of the day. If there's a take-home message you hope our listeners will remember from our discussion today, what would that be?

SPEAKER_05 43:23

Yeah, we've we've covered a lot. Uh codependency can be this kind of really big thing, but I guess my my hope is the takeaway would be that there's hope. There is so much hope. Uh relationships can be so much better when you recognize some of these patterns that are getting in the way. Get in the way of what you really want. They get in the way of that that deeper connection and care. And being able to recognize these patterns helps you actually work through it and and start to do something about it. Um and hopefully you hear from this that there's ways to treat it. There's lots of resources, you're not alone. So I that's my one takeaway is oh things can be better.

Resources, Groups, And The Institute

SPEAKER_03 44:18

Absolutely love it. Yeah, and for our listeners, we'll be sure to put those um links um to the Relationship Institute um in our show notes. So be sure to check those out. I think that's my takeaway uh today, too, is I've been thinking the whole time, and that's exactly yeah. I echo what you're you're talking about. You know, to recognize this, if some of this is kind of um either, you know, I don't know, stings or resonates, or you know, you feel this little nudge or this pull, like, man. I actually I can I can uh relate to some of what he's he's talking about there. And it's been maybe years or decades of of this pattern. There's still, yeah, there is there's time to to change, to become better, to heal um relationships, partner-couple relationships, parent-child relationships, to do things a different way. So yeah, don't give up. We'll give in. There's there's help, there's resources, and we know more now than ever before. Um so it does, but it does. It takes work and it takes consistent effort. Um, whether you're yeah, whether it's therapy or books or podcasts or listening. Um but yeah, it's worth it's worth the effort, those relationships with people that are more important than problems. So um man, this has been so helpful, hey uh Peyton. Thank you so much for coming on, for taking time to share so much about uh codependency and and how we can become um better and and healthier through the first recognizing it and then uh striving for resources to help us improve. So sure appreciate your time today.

SPEAKER_04 45:47

Ah, thank you. I'm grateful to be here.

Keys To Connection, Hope, And Closing

SPEAKER_03 45:51

Okay, friends, that does it for us. We will see you next time on another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection Podcast. And in honor of what Liz typically says, remember it's the small things that create a stronger marriage connection. See you next time. Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us a favor and take a second to subscribe to our podcast and the Utah Marriage Commission YouTube channel at Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the show. Be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment, and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at StrongerMarriageWife and Facebook at Stronger Marriage. So be sure to share with us which topics you love and which guests we should have on the show next. If you want even more resources to improve your marriage or relationship connection, visit strongermarriage.org where you'll find free workshops, e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys, and more. Each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, Rex Polanis, and the team at Utah State University, and you, our audience, you make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions, and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.