Stronger Marriage Connection

How Attachment Shapes Desire, Arousal, And Closeness In Marriage | Marc Cameron | #168

• Utah Marriage Comission • Season 4 • Episode 168

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We trace how childhood attachment styles shape sexual desire, arousal, and closeness in marriage, and why couples get stuck in the sex standoff. Mark Cameron shares practical steps to earn secure attachment and turn emotional safety into better intimacy.

• Key gender differences in arousal and desire
• The sex standoff and how it spirals
• Quick primer on attachment theory and styles
• Avoider patterns and nonrelational sex
• Pleaser appeasing, boundaries, and anxiety
• Vacillator intensity, protest, and withholding
• Disorganized attachment, control, and adrenaline
• What secure partners do differently
• Comfort Circle for empathy and regulation
• Neural pathways, practice, and earned security
• Resources: book, quiz, workshops, radio show


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https://www.youtube.com/@HowWeLove

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Welcome And Topic Setup

SPEAKER_04

On today's episode, Liz and I welcome back to the show Mark Cameron, and we have a fascinating discussion about how our attachment style affects sexual intimacy, arousal, and emotional closeness in marriage. We dive into gender differences and sexual desire and the cycles of frustration that can arise between partners. Mark provides hope and practical help with tips from his new book. Mark is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and Amy is a licensed psychiatric nurse practitioner. Together they lead How We Love, an organization offering attachment-based resources for individuals, couples, churches, and therapists. How We Love was originally founded by Milan and Kay Yerkovich and inspired by their best-selling 2006 book, which has sold over 100,000 copies and introduced readers to how childhood attachment styles shape adult relationships. The How We Love website also features a free attachment style quiz used by more than 5,000 people each month. Mark is a regular co-host on the national radio program New Life Live and is the author of a new book called Understanding Your Attachment Style. We hope you enjoy the show. Hey there, friends. Welcome to another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection Podcast. I'm Dr. Dave here at Utah State University. Alongside Dr. Liz Hale, our therapist, we are aiming to bring you the very best that we have in research, resources, along with a few tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. All right, Liz, last time we had our guests on the show. We talked about attachment styles, and today we're diving into gender differences when it comes to sexual arousal and why husbands and wives get stuck in cycles of frustration. So back by popular demand to tackle this important topic is the one and only Mark Cameron. Welcome back to the show, Mark. So good to be here with you guys. Yeah, thrilled for our conversation today. We love talking about attachment styles. Last time we're anxious to dive into our topic today. Mark, I've I've done some research here at the university, uh, especially early on with my master's and my uh thesis, really diving into uh newlyweds. And not surprisingly, sexual intimacy is ranked at the top or near the top as it relates to the biggest struggles for most couples. And it's not just even newlyweds, my area of studying that, but it feels like throughout uh the relationship, it doesn't matter if you've been married a year or 20, 40 years, it seems to be this underlying issue for many couples, or at least some of the struggles and things that stem maybe back to that area of sexual intimacy. So, man, I'd

Why Sex Feels So Hard For Couples

SPEAKER_04

I'd love to dive right into our topic by first asking why. Why, Mark? Why is sex such a challenging issue in relationships?

SPEAKER_01

Well, it is a challenging issue because we are built differently as male and female, and oftentimes our expectations, uh either as a male or as a female, is that the other will respond in the way that we respond. Um, but it it and that's where we get stuck because we are not the same. And so you're right. I do couples therapy primarily, and I help couples who uh struggle with this, whether they're newlyweds or whether they're several decades. And so um I want to talk about differences between attachment styles and sexual expectations, but I think it's it's important to understand just how we're different, just as the different genders. And so here's a few things that I generally talk about with couples um when I'm talking about sex and and the primary differences between the way male and female are aroused. And so let's get into a few of those here,

Gender Differences In Arousal And Desire

SPEAKER_01

right? Men are typically oriented physically and stimulated by images and sight, whereas women are more oriented emotionally and relationally, and they tend to be more stimulated by feeling, smell, touch, and words. Men are quick to respond sexually and difficult to distract during sex, whereas women have a slower response to become uh aroused and they're easier to distract during sex. A man's orgasm, it's short, it's intense, it's physically oriented in the tip of the penis and it's solitary. It's a one-time only deal. Whereas a woman's orgasm, it's slower. So I've heard here, it's slower, it's more intense, it's emotionally oriented in their brain and it's potentially multiple. Men need sex to relax. Uh, their sexual desire is based on a single constant hormone, testosterone, and they just have a constant build. And when that builds up, it causes angst inside of them. And so a sexual release releases that uh testosterone and it helps them relax. Whereas a woman's sexual desire is based on several changing hormones, it happens in a cycle, so she can be uh more aroused depending on the point uh uh where she is in her cycle. Uh, and a woman needs to relax to have sex. A man's goal during sex is to climax to have that orgasm. If they don't, then it's um it's not feel it's not felt as fulfilling for them. Whereas in a woman, of course, she wants to have an orgasm every time, but she can enjoy the tension of the journey. And if she doesn't have an orgasm, uh the sexual experience can still be satisfying for her. And here's one big, big difference um is that men experience spontaneous desire where they're very quick to get into the mood and more likely to initiate sex, and women experience primarily here, responsive sexual desire, where they get into the mood often only after they start engaging sexually. And so this is several different areas where we are completely the opposite in. And when we don't understand that about one another, these two things create friction and and and we get stuck.

SPEAKER_00

Isn't that fascinating? How different we are put together, if you will, created, right? If if you believe in a God, I mean it really does require us to be open and connecting, communicative, honest, vulnerable. There's really just no other way. Mark, how often do you see painful intercourse as a problem among couples? Problem for women, typically.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, it's a problem for women. Oftentimes women may not um express that. Um, but it but it can happen because even though body parts are the same, they're not exactly the same. And and then especially as a woman goes into um uh pre-menopause and menopause, right? Uh some of that lubrication dries up, uh, or it was not as produced as much as what I say. And so then so sex can become painful

The Sex Standoff Cycle

SPEAKER_01

after the fact. But generally, where people get stuck in what I call the sex standoff or the cycle of sexual frustration is this, right? A wife desires emotional conversations, openness and vulnerability with her husband to feel connected. And a husband desires sex with his wife to become more open and like engaging emotionally and vulnerably with her. If he's emotionally aware and can allow himself to be vulnerable. And and a wife then may pull away to self-protect from the disappointment of not being connected with if the husband's not connected with her. The husband then becomes sexually frustrated. He often sees his wife as the gatekeeper because she doesn't have a sexual buildup like him. Then that can manifest an anger or angst when he's around his wife. The wife's then sexual breaks activate because she perceives the husband being irritable. Remember, women need to de stress and relax to have sex. And then the husband may feel rejected and stop initiating. Um, and then a woman feels uh disconnected and withdraws, and she doesn't initiate because she's more of a responsive desire. And and so the cycle then continues. And I see people who get stuck in this literally uh for decades because they don't know what is happening between them both.

SPEAKER_00

So painful. We're glad you're here to set the record straight on on much of this. You know, we had a great discussion last time on attachment and attachment styles, and we'll save painful intercourse for maybe another segment. Um, because it's in and of itself just a really big deal. I'm

Attachment 101 And Why It Matters

SPEAKER_00

hearing more and more about it. But let's let's go back to why we're talking today, Mark, and remind our listeners, remind us, remind me about the attachment styles. And let's talk about the differences when it comes to sexual expectations and gender with those attachment styles, please.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so I I know last time we we talked a whole lot in depth about attachment. So I won't explain them in a like I did last time. But we all what I will say is that we all have an attachment style. We all have a way of bonding. And that uh attachment style, that bonding style is created from our families of origin, the families that we grew up in. How well did our parents attune to us? How well did they pick up on our needs, how well did they then respond to what we needed, uh both physically and emotionally. And that sets a foundation. It's it's relationship program is what attachment is, and it programs us for what to expect from others. And we take that into our relationships. And so there's several insecure attachment styles, but there's only one secure attachment style. And insecure attachment styles, they attach insecurely, so they don't bond well together, go well together. And so, in order for us to have uh uh secure and healthy relationships, we need to learn how to become securely attached. And when that doesn't happen, it creates a whole lot of problems. And then specifically in the areas of uh sexual uh arousal and sexual connection, we see specific areas where um that people struggle

Avoidant Style And Nonrelational Sex

SPEAKER_01

in. Um, I'll talk about the first one here is the avoider, the avoidant uh attachment. The avoider grows up in a home where there's not a lot of emotional connection. And this person's uh experiences more uh focused on childhood experiences focused on task mastery, uh, getting getting things done, getting things accomplished, and they often have to grow up uh very quickly in their home or become very uh independent quickly, and they learn to suppress their emotions, and so they're avoidantly attached. Um, they they they don't come as close uh in relationships, more uh uh what we might call uh a left-brain logical uh approach to relationships rather than a right brain emotional connecting approach. And so uh so for avoiders when it comes to sex, that they didn't growing up, they didn't have a lot of nurturing touch. And so uh if you look, if you're an avoider and you look at family pictures, you you might not see a lot of leaning on each other or arms around one another in pictures. And so, and but comfort and nurture, that's the foundation of healthy sexual touch, and that starts very early on. All babies need comfort, all babies need nurture. And so we need to learn how to have this before we can be emotionally connected in our sex lives. And so, avoiders they grow up, they don't have a lot of uh self-awareness of what they're feeling, and so they tend not to have a lot of other awareness to others, and so they they're not as tuned in to their spouse and to their spouse's pleasure. Now, there are differences too between the genders for uh for an avoider male and avoid an avoider female. What I often see, and what you may see, is that uh avoider females may not like sex. They may actually, I've heard uh avoidant females say, I hate sex, I don't like it. I don't like it at all. It doesn't feel good. They're not used to that uh tender, uh loving touch, and so they've learned to move away from it. Whereas more uh avoidant men can use sex as a way to relieve stress, um, but they may not know how to touch their wife in non-sexual ways. Now remember, wives, uh, women, uh their sexual desire is more like this, and then uh arousal recovery is more like this, whereas a man's sexual uh desire is more like this, and their recovery is like this. And so women need that emotional connection in order to drive their sexual arousal. And so if you have an avoidant husband who's not aware of his own emotional state, he's not aware of his wife's emotional state. Um, and so um he he he may not seek out his wife in that way, and the wife may not be drawn in to him that way. And so uh avoid it uh avoiders uh during sex, they can uh avoid eye contact, they may uh avoid tender words, um and and they can also become susceptible to um different types of affairs, uh things that are really non-relational, like um maybe even pornography or one night stands, or maybe visiting prostitutes, or susceptible to massage parlors when they act out uh in this way, really in a non-relational way. And so sex tends to be a non-relational event, um, specifically for avoidant man.

SPEAKER_00

That's fascinating. And I guess we'll get into what we can do, right? We're gonna get into that.

SPEAKER_03

We'll be right back after this brief message.

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SPEAKER_05

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_00

That's what we want to do. So, but please clarify for us: do securely attached people also have challenges in their sex life?

SPEAKER_01

They do have challenges. Let me talk about all of the attachment, uh, insecure attachment styles first, and then we'll talk about the good news. Um,

(Cont.) Pleaser Patterns And Boundaries

SPEAKER_01

let me talk about the next insecure attachment style here. This is the pleasure attachment style. So, this person is a more anxious, codependent person. They grow up in homes where they learn to manage a parent's emotions. A parent might be angry or uh or uh critical or maybe a highly anxious or depressed parent. And so this kid learns to manage their parents' emotions growing up and they go into adulthood, becoming uh codependent with others, learning to manage other people's uh emotions. And so when it comes to sex, they can give in and they can appease to maintain connection. Really, sexual touch uh can often become about relieving anxiety because for them, being close to others means others are accepting of me, others are approving of me, others are happy with me. And so oftentimes a sexual uh a sexual desire, a sexual uh connection can really be about reducing anxiety to calm a person's own nervous system. Now, the when it if we want to look at the difference between male and female pleasers, uh pleaser women can lack boundaries, they can lack opinions with sex. Um especially among some uh some uh uh religious communities, uh they they can believe in, okay, I I don't ever want to deny my husband because I don't I don't but really it's about I don't want him to be upset at me or I want to calm him down. And so really it's please and they can they can give in to doing things, maybe even having painful sexual touch or doing things that they're not comfortable with because they don't want to upset their spouse. And now when it comes to pleaser men, please a man can often stay in a sex a sexless marriage. I've seen pleaser men stay stay in sexless marriages for decades because they're afraid of confrontation, they don't want to confront their wife, they don't uh about uh the problems that they're having, the issues that they're having. They don't want to upset Apple card. And so they can really, you know, if they're married to somebody who's who's angry and and who's protesting and withholding sex or who's more avoidant, they can really just stay, stay in that marriage, in that relationship without getting their needs met for a long, long time. Um, let's talk about another one here. Let's talk about the vacillator. So the vacillator uh grows is more of an ambivalent

Vacillators, Intensity, And Withholding

SPEAKER_01

person, they're more idealistic. They grow up in homes where connection is not consistent for them, it's intermittent. And so they might have a parent who engages with them based on that parent's mood, how they're feeling in that moment, or based on the parent's physical availability. You know, we have a lot of different uh custody situations or parents' jobs that take them uh away from a child. And so this person grows up with their longing for connection turned on high, and they uh go into relationships and they're very idealistic. But when they get and so they can often jump into relationships very, very quickly because their longing for connection gets turned on high. And so the dating phase is all about time, attention, and connection, and they're very quick to get into uh sexual relationships oftentimes. This actually group of attachment styles has the highest uh level of uh of unplanned pregnancies because they are very, very quickly and get into sexual relationships very, very quickly. But uh, and and they're idealistic, but when they get let down, they can tend to feel this deep disappointment and then they push away and they protest and they can withhold. And so uh what I see in this attachment style is there's not as much of difference between a male and a female as there are among the other attachment styles, because they both do the same thing. They both can they this is an anxious attachment style, so they can seek uh sexual connection as a way to relieve anxiety, but then they can also both withhold sexual connection as a way to protest to get to see that they're hurt and to pursue them. And if this person gets stuck in a protest, it can be very hard to um and and sexual uh disconnection happens for a long time, it can be very hard for them to get back into sexual connection with their spouse because they're only used to having relationships that um or relational connection or their idea for relational connection comes with intensity. And and so if if if their sexual connection has all of this intensity, all of this dopamine, um uh all of this oxytocin going on inside, and then now they've got to rebuild a connection with with someone because all relationships struggle. And so when they've got to rebuild a relationship with someone, and and you've got to start from a place of sexual connection where we're not in intense connection with one another, they can really struggle, and they can be very susceptible to um long-term affairs with people. They can fall they fall out of love or they believe they fall out of love with their spouse, and then they can fall out of love with someone else.

SPEAKER_00

This is such good information. Pardon me. Okay, so I think there's more, right? We've got the avoidant, the pleasing, the vacillator.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and then and then here's the last one the last two come from the same. Home growing up. It's called disorganized attachment. And somebody who uh grows up in a home with disorganized attachment

Disorganized Attachment, Control, And Risk

SPEAKER_01

is really they have no organized strategy for it. So these people grow up in homes that are dangerous. There's typically neglect or sexual abuse or physical abuse that happened. And so they they learn that the person who's supposed to protect me is also the person who hurts me. And so they get stuck between these two systems, a safety system and attachment system. The safety system says run from danger. The attach our attachment systems say run to a protective figure. But if those two people are the same person, we get stuck in this. And so they can go one of two ways. They became become a controller type person because they learn that in relationships as one person who's in charge, and there's one person who advanced, and and and the controller learns when I'm big enough and strong enough, I'm not going to be in the one-down. So I'm good, I'm going to be in the controlling position. Or the victim learns that I can't stop abuse. And so they learn something called learn helplessness and they learn to be in the one-down position. And these two often find one another in adulthood, not because they want to be in the cycle of abuse, but because that's what's familiar in relationships. And so they often end up in the cycle of abuse. And somebody who is more of a controller, they can be controlling when it comes to sex. They can demand um uh uh uh sexual positions or high-intensity sexual connection with someone that could be uh painful for the other person, could even be humiliating for the other person. Because typically in this hum, what happens is touch is not tender, touch is not gentle, touch is not comforting, touch is adrenalized. And uh and so the brain then pairs touch with adrenaline. And so they can need high levels of adrenaline to feel that sexual arousal. And then somebody in the victim role can then really endure these painful or humiliating sexual experiences. Again, not because they want abuse or because they like abuse, but because they've learned that touch, all touch comes with a certain amount of adrenaline or a certain amount of pain. And so it's just familiar for them.

SPEAKER_00

I remember you uh directing us to um, oh, I don't know, is it a quiz or the questionnaire to find out what style, right? Do you remember that? We were talking about that. And you were so surprised about Vacillator. You were said, oh my gosh, how come I haven't known this?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, I first found out about this by reading a book called How We Love. Um and I when I read the book, it described me. I uh came out of childhood with a vacillator attachment style. Um, but I didn't have words for it, I didn't have language, I didn't have understanding. And then when I read this book, How We Love, it just blew my mind. It uh described the ways that I I was and language that I didn't have for myself. And and at that point, I was getting uh into uh doing my therapy hours. Therapy is a second career for me. And so then that set me on this path to find out more and more about attachment. And

Finding Your Style And Mark’s Path

SPEAKER_01

then I ended up going to work for the authors, Mylene and Kay Yerkovic. And they've eventually retired and uh asked my wife and I to take over from them uh at their business how we love website.

SPEAKER_00

We need to put that quiz back up because I loved it. I took it too after we talked, Mark, and I too am vacillator. That was my quadrant or area of um of attachment. Yeah, so I think it's fascinating.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so so this stuff it helps explain how we are in relationship, but we don't want to remain this way once we know about it. That's right. That's right. Um I've written a book called Understanding Your Attachment Style, and and in there there's uh three sections to it. One is called Insight. So it's explaining, you know, what attachment is, how our attachment styles form, you know, the cycle of bond, why this is a thing. And then the next section is called awareness. It's okay, so so if attachment is a thing and we're all impacted by it, where do I fall within that? And then the last section is called show up to practice. It's not enough just to know that diet and exercise and healthy eating choices lead to physical health. I've got to actually do something about that. We need to learn how to practice something, uh, practice the healthy way of being. Because the this is the bad news about attachment, is that we've been uh subconsciously practicing the unhealthy way of being. And so we become really good at it. Because whatever we practice, we become good at. So we need to learn how to recondition and grow. And so attachment is really um a lens to look at how do we grow in relationship with one another. Um, and as we grow and we show up and we practice these new behaviors, then we will become more secure. And that's the relationship math. It takes two securely attached people to form a securely attached relationship. You cannot

From Insight To Practice: Earning Secure

SPEAKER_01

take two insecurely attached people and expect that there's not going to be problems bonding.

SPEAKER_00

And so let's talk about securely attached people. I got ahead of myself earlier. Do they also have challenges in their sex life, even when they're securely attached?

SPEAKER_01

They do. So let's talk about first how does secure attachment form? So, secure attachment forms when you do have a parent or caregiver who is attuned to your emotional and physical needs. They can pick up on what's going on on the inside of you from your behavior. If you come home from school and your face is kind of downcast and you're a little bit quiet, this uh uh securely attached parent can pick up on that in their child and they can say, Hey, are you okay? You seem quiet today. Is everything okay? You seem sad or you seem upset. And so that they're able to really provide language to um internal states of their child. And and that's how that's how we learn language for everything is we have somebody who teaches to it to us, even in adulthood, if you want to learn a different language, you gotta you you it's listen and repeat. Somebody says a uh a word in the new language and then you repeat it back. And and it's the same. That's how we learn and how we grow as children, how we uh learn language for emotions. And so this person then develops something called emotional intelligence. You know, how my internal state affects the way that I act. And then they also understand what do I need to resolve this emotion? Every emotion has a corresponding emotional need to resolve it. So if I feel misunderstood, I need to be understood. If I feel unseen, I need to be seen. Um, if I feel sad, I need comfort. And so they understand this part. And they more likely get their needs met because they have language for what's going on on the inside, and then they can make requests. And so they go into adulthood with that language and they look for other people who are like them, and that's how securely attached people end up in securely attached relationships with others. And so it's not that these pairings don't have any problems, it's that they know how to describe what's going on, they know how to um bring the topic up in a productive way without it feeling confrontational or attacking, and they know how to listen and resolve. And so, yeah, that I mean, genders have there's the

What Secure Partners Do Differently

SPEAKER_01

different gender differences, as I've explained. And and secure attachment too, I should clarify in this way. All secure attachment means is that I I more often behave in a secure way than I do in an insecure way. And so uh if I'm 51% of the way somewhere, then I've still got you know a long way to go. I've still got almost half of the way to go. And so attachments really rated on a spectrum. You can be mildly, moderately, or very much like one of these attachment styles, but all can continue to grow, even if you happen to be a securely attached person. And so what happens with with securely attached people is that when they have challenges in uh their sex lives, they know how to approach that in a healthy way. Okay we start the the our very existence right out with touch, as I as I mentioned. Babies when when they don't get touched, they they don't thrive. And so when touch is comforting, when touch is gentle, when touch is affirming, it releases neurobiological chemicals inside of us, dopamine, um, which is a reward chemical, oxytocin, which is a bonding chemical. And and so uh securely attached people know that um it in order to have good healthy sexual connection, we also need to have good, uh, strong emotional connection. So they can be emotionally vulnerable within one another, not just females, by the way, males can be this way too. They're open and they're honest uh with their communication about preferences. They also have good boundaries uh without rejecting one another. And so they can have healthy discussions, they can talk about what they like and what they dislike. And when that is opposing to what uh their partner wants, they don't say things like, ooh, that's really weird. Why would you want that? They can say things like, huh, I can see how you that might be enjoyable for you. For me, that's not as enjoyable. What can we do to find a way where both of us enjoy this experience? So that so they're able to say no in certain ways, they're able to hold boundaries, but they're also able to be vulnerable and open and explore one another's experiences. And and and we know not everybody is in the mood all of the time. And so when they when they let uh not that they let their partner down, but when their partner initiates and they're not in the mood, they also know how to do that in a non-rejecting way and also to invite uh for a future time. I'm you know, right now I'm not in that headspace. Um, but maybe if you give me a couple of hours, I might be, or maybe if we go on a walk together uh and let me talk to you about my day, that might help. And so that they know how to negotiate, they also know how to rein in their impulse control. Um, but they but they also realize this is that it's emotional, the emotional connection that drives the sexual desire ultimately in the long term. In in the short term, when we first meet one another, it's usually the sexual tension that drives the emotional connection to get to know one another. But as relationships progress, as they develop, it flips to the opposite way. That it it emotional intimacy drives a sexual connection. It's not that if we just have loads of sex, then we'll feel emotionally close to one another. And so they understand those things uh about relationships and and and they can flex and they know that good sex is congruous, meaning that um we're both in an emotionally connected place. Uh they they build emotional intimacy, they don't demand, they don't pout, they don't withhold. Right. And and they understand too that sex is oftentimes a negotiated event. Our minds get primed by pornography and by Hollywood uh as to what sexual connection should look like. Uh and oftentimes

Media Myths And Desire Mismatch

SPEAKER_01

females are depicted um as the sexual aggressor. They're the Hollywood's mainly run by men. And so when men, uh so when Hollywood shows a sexual encounter, really a woman is is masculinized in the way that she her desire levels work. She's quick to get into the mood, even if uh a fight has just occurred, she can she can separate that emotionally and and go ahead and and have sex. Um and and that primes women to can prime young girls too to believe that they're broken when they don't react in the way, but respond in the inside. We'll be right back after this brief message.

SPEAKER_05

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_00

Wouldn't it be great if Hollywood came out with a movie that showed secure attachment? How to respond, what it sounds like, what it doesn't. Oh, it'd be beautiful.

SPEAKER_01

Well, it would. I mean, how often in Hollywood do you see somebody saying, well, you know, not right now. Um could we try again later? Oh, my boobs are just really tender right now, or I'm on my period. That that doesn't happen. It it doesn't, you don't really see those things in in storylines. It's an idealized version, and men can also then be primed of this is how a woman should um behave. And when she doesn't respond this way, when she's not behaving that way, then something's wrong. He's broken.

SPEAKER_04

Mark, this is I'm just soaking all of this in here. I'm thinking maybe I can summarize for our listeners that I mean, last time we talked about attachment, so I think it's it's important for uh kind of almost as a foundational first step,

First Steps: Awareness And Growth Goals

SPEAKER_04

right? Understand attachment and maybe start to understand, okay, where some of this came from my relationships with the caregiver or parent, and then think, oh, okay, now in my um in my sexual relationship with my spouse or my partner, you know, how how can I guess what can they do next? I can I can see a lot of listeners, you know, light bulbs going on, and they're thinking, okay, yeah, I'm an avoidant or uh a vacillator, and yeah, we've really had um struggles here and touch doesn't feel good, or whatever that is. And so it's like, now what? What what should listeners do next, I guess?

SPEAKER_01

Well, uh, as I said, the the first step is to growth is awareness. We can't purposefully change something that we are not aware of. So we've got to become aware of this, right? Attachment is a real thing. It's been studied for decades. For 80 years, attachment has been studied all over the world. It is undisputed that everybody has an attachment style. Um, the the famous attachment experiments we show that you can see a baby's attachment style from as early as one year of age. You can see the attachment style developing. And and the attachment, our attachment styles are the number one predictors of how our relationships are going to go because they shape all of our expectations. So once you understand that this is a thing, uh, and and and then you can see where you fall into that, then you've got to learn to practice specific growth goals to recondition. Just like if you were reconditioning your body, if you're going to the gym. I mean, you you have to understand, you know, what my eating habits are, right? Uh, you know, what are good foods for me that are going to promote physical strength or that are going to give me energy? And some for some people, it's also what are the right times of day to eat this at? But you also have to recognize, you know, what are my eating habits? You know, it's not enough just to know that. You you've got to recognize that uh and face reality that I am this way. I I I'm not a gym person or or I I lack impulse control. Um, and then and then you need to practice the new habits. And just like going to the gym, like if you eat right and you exercise, it does not matter whether you are trying to get thin, fit, strong, and healthy. I guarantee that you will, because that's the way bodies are designed, that's the way bodies work. And so it's the same thing with attachment. You know, the bad news is, as I said, we've been practicing these ways uh unintentionally and subconsciously. And so we have become programmed this way. But if you practice secure, uh securely attached behaviors, and in my book, Understanding Your Attachment Style, I outline growth goals for each of the insecure attachment styles. These are the daily practices of reconditioning that if you do these over a period of time, you will work your way. It's called uh so the here's the good news: it's called earn secure attachment style. If you don't have childhood with a secure attachment style, learn secure attachment style,

Neural Pathways And Changing Habits

SPEAKER_01

you can the research says you can earn a secure attachment style in two ways. One, you've got to practice these um uh securely attached behaviors. But number two, you've got to become aware of how did how did my childhood experience shape me? And that's called in the research language, we call that building a coherent narrative. Coherent is something that that's narrative a story. How did my uh childhood experience shape me? Because if you don't see it, it continues to be a blind spot, and then you just justify your behaviors, you justify the way that you're reacting. You say, well, anyone would feel this way around you because look how you are. But if you if you don't see what is being, you know, many people will say this, I'm being triggered right now. And what they mean by that is I'm getting upset. But what a lot of people don't stop and ask is, well, what is actually being triggered inside me? A trigger is an association in the present to a past experience where we've learned to react, we've learned to re-enact. React to it comes from the Latin reactio, it means to act back. So we've learned to react in a certain way. And until we can see that about ourselves, then we can learn how to uh pause our reaction and then respond.

SPEAKER_04

And that's so challenging, Mark, because coming back to what you that word that keeps coming to my mind is familiar. It's and that's almost the easy path. The easy path is the familiar one, the way things uh you know, whether it was the the harmful touch or if it's familiar, so this earned attachment is it takes work, right? First, kind of this awareness, this attunement, like okay, this is kind of some of the struggles. Uh but I've got to really gotta work on this because it's easy to go down the familiar slide, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01

Mm-hmm. Oh, it absolutely. I mean, we we are going to, you know, this is the way brains work. Brains work by something called neuropathway building. When we do something, you know, our brains wire together that there's there's a whole but billions of neurons in our brains, or we call them brain cells, and they connect to one another with electrical impulses. And so when when we have an experience, you know, who what was the environment? What was the experience? Who was there? How did I feel? Um, what sensation did I have in my body? What, you know, did I feel unsafe? Did I have to protect myself? What did I have to do? All of those neurons wired together through electrical impulses and it builds something called a neural pathway. And when we have familiar experiences over and over again, right? We most of us have the same caregiver for almost two decades of life. That's a long time. And you come to know how my parents are going to react in certain ways to different things. You know, are they going to be okay if I spill their milk, or is my dad gonna get like really upset about that? And so we what so our brains wire together these neural pathways. And then all it takes is one element of a neural pathway to refire the rest of it. Our brains work by shortcuts.

Payoffs Of Secure Bonding In Marriage

SPEAKER_01

So this is why, you know, familiarity is actually an adaptive process in our brains, because it's like, oh, seen this before, know what to expect. But it happens on a subconscious or an unconscious level where we are not aware of it and we get triggered by that. And so that's why when we build that coherent narrative, when we make sense of our childhood stories, when we have especially a therapist who helps walk us through, you know, what our experiences were with our parents, how we felt in those moments, how and we understand how that shaped us, then all of a sudden we bring everything from the subconscious into the conscious, and we can start to see it playing out in front of us. And I'm sure most people. Have had that experience where you've learned something new, and all of a sudden, when you've learned something new, uh all of you can see it, and it's like, oh my gosh, I can see this happening now. Uh I'm I I've become aware of it. I I know what what's going on, and then when you do that, then you can adjust.

SPEAKER_04

It almost feels like it creates this upward uh spiral. I compared to me going to the to the gym. If I haven't been to the gym in a long time, it's it's work and I don't like it. But as soon as I see some results and I think, oh, I don't crave the sugar as much, and I want to be better, and I want to eat uh better, but man, it takes consistent work because it's much easier than to not go to the gym, right? So it is, it's it's relearning and being patient through this process. I want to just emphasize to our uh our listeners that yeah, that it's not a you're not stuck at where you are, but it does take uh work and conscious effort, and maybe some uh a therapist or a grade book, some information to relearn some neural, yeah, neural pathways.

SPEAKER_01

And it's like anything, you know, it's it it is. I don't use a lot of absolutes here, but I will here, it is always easier to not do the work because it's work, right? We we we tend not to want to do work because it's it's effort. We we are drawn more to relaxing, and especially, you know, we've got a lot of conveniences in life right now. You know, if you got to wait in a line for more than two minutes, more than five minutes, right? You're like, what is going on? Why is my food not ready? And you don't realize, like, hey, the rest of the world doesn't have inner now. Okay, you're actually blessed right now that you can you can wait in this long line and get your food writ uh made for you. So we resist it. But the thing is, is both have pain and both have discomfort. Okay, staying stuck is painful and it's uncomfortable. Doing hard work is it there's a a measure of pain and discomfort too. When you go to the gym, what happens? Your muscles tear, it feels uncomfortable. You you know, if you really want to build up stamina, then you've got to just do a little bit more than you did last time and then a little bit more, otherwise you're just maintaining. So if you want to grow, you've got to push. And it's uncomfortable,

Comfort Circle And Repair In Action

SPEAKER_01

but you but the pain of growth actually leads to strength, and the pain of staying stuck just leads to the same pattern. So one is a good type of pain and discomfort. Uh, and the other one is is one that would just keep you stuck. And so you got to pick your pain. And like you said, Dave, that was a really interesting insight that you said is that when you learn to eat right and you exercise in a certain way, actually those cravings go away. You you don't have those sugar cravings at night. And so then it's like, well, if I don't have the sugar craving, it becomes easier. And and and these are reinforcing patterns. When I don't feel as reactive inside, I'm not gonna react. I'm not gonna have an outburst. Uh, and and it and it becomes easier to build upon this.

SPEAKER_03

We'll be right back after this brief message.

SPEAKER_05

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_00

Well, what's the payoff? Let's talk about payoff for two people working on becoming more securely attached. The pay, what's the what's the what's the result of that?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so glad you're asking that. And and there's a way that so there is individual growth because one person can't earn attack the secure attachment of another person. We we've got to do this growth together. But you in couples therapy, what you can do, and and we uh Mylan and Kay, who wrote the book, Iron and Kay Yokovic, who wrote the book, How We Love, that I read that is my life and my way of being, um, and that I took over from them. They they created a uh therapy style called attachment core pattern therapy. What kind of uh core conflict pattern when two different attachment styles come together? It's very predictable. And we use something, a tool called the comfort circle. And what the comfort circle is, it's how do we have a conversation? And instead of arguing back and forth, we can take these two roles, a listener role and a speaker role. And there's a way that we can speak to encourage someone to listen. And there's also a way that we can listen and not just like, okay, go ahead, it's your turn. You speak right now. You know, how can I speak in a way that is active and involved in what you're saying? And that draws you out and that shows empathy and validation. And the goal is really understanding what you're experiencing, even if that experience is not the same for me. Most people are seeking agreement, but the comfort circle is about understanding. And so the goal the comfort circle does is it exposes this regulation and it gives you an opportunity to teach regulation. And so two people can learn to put a secure, a secure attachment, a response on for one another for just it starts off with by doing that for short periods of time. And then the longer, uh, the more you practice that, the longer and longer you can keep that on. And so two people in a marriage can actually grow closer together and and learning. And what I'm talking about is something called the cycle of bonding. It's it's mimicking it, it's imitating what should have happened to a person growing up with a parent being attuned to them and responding to them. And if you and if you can do that for one another, it a reparative process happens and new neural pathways are built in your brain. And then the more you walk that

Resources: Books, Quiz, Workshops, Radio

SPEAKER_01

new neural pathway, so to speak, in your brain, that then becomes a default pathway. And the other one can actually diminish. So it's neuroscience.

SPEAKER_00

There's nothing more satisfying than when two people can do that individually and do that collectively. I think your book is really the answer. Mark, when we talked last time, I just did a deep a deep dive into this. Guy, I find it so interesting. I didn't know enough about attachment, even though you have to say no, James Bowlby, and we attachment's been a long, long time, but attachment and marriage. But your book, Understanding Your Attachment Styles, a Path to Overcoming Unhelpful Patterns and Building Healthy, Secure Relationships, it's brilliant. And I I hope listeners will take that to heart. But can you share with us um any resources related to attachment and sex specifically?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so on our uh the website, How We Love, we actually have resources for individuals and couples. Um, we have resources for parents, and then we also specifically have resources regarding uh sex or what we've been talking about here. You know, how do we learn how to bond in this way? What happens when it's not uh going well? And so we have recordings of the workshops that we put on, and one of the uh workshops is called How We Love Sex or Don't. Or don't or don't, right? And so it's explaining, you know, what happens when uh when we don't understand these gender differences and and how, you know, as I explained here briefly, how our attachment styles shape the way that we approach sex and our sexual expectations. Um how do we recondition? And you and you recondition as a whole person. It's not like, oh, okay, I'm just gonna recondition in my sex life. No, it doesn't work that way. You every aspect, right? Every aspect. We're we're we're inside of us, we're all we're interconnected. Our brain is kind of you can't separate one part of your brain, it's all connected to one another. And our brain works when we take a whole brain approach, when our brain integrates, when all of it is working and firing uh in in a healthy way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That's where I took that free attachment quiz, was how we love.com. I love it from our last conversation. Can you also remind listeners, Mark, about your national call-in radio program? New life live. Good for you.

SPEAKER_01

I'm on uh the a national call-in radio show. It's the largest Christian call-in radio show. Uh reaches over two million listeners. And so uh I'm on there typically every Monday and and and usually uh Thursday or Friday on there. But it's a it's a call-in show. There's several co-hosts who are all licensed professionals, and and you you know, any one of your listeners can call in. Anyone can call in. We record at certain times and you call in and you just tell us what you're struggling with in relationship or what's the relational problem. And two of us will answer answer your question and give you some brief advice and then maybe direct you to another resource. And you know what? Human beings aren't that inventive. Uh we all struggle with similar problems, similar issues. So even if you're not calling in, if you listen for more than a couple of episodes, you you'll hear something that you are struggling with. Uh, and then you'll hear some relational wisdom on that.

SPEAKER_00

That's beautiful. Good for you all. That's very cool. Two million. Holy smokes.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that's a bunch, that's a bunch. So for our listeners, we're gonna put those links in our show notes. So be sure to check those uh those out. Mark, man, just like last time, the time goes so fast and because my head is just filling up with all these ideas and so much great um information, my friend. I know last time we talked about you know your your takeaway of the day, so maybe we can end this time. Um, or as far, sorry about the the keto starter

Final Takeaways And Hope

SPEAKER_04

marriage connection. I'd love to hear your takeaway, take-home message for our listeners, something you want our listeners to remember from today.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, this may have been my my one last time, and and I uh forgive me if it is, but uh but I think good news of it is that we don't have to remain this way, right? We don't have to remain stuck. And so if you're feeling stuck in your relationship, um, if you're feeling uh stuck in your sex life, and and even if you're divorced or if you're single, if you're just feeling stuck in other relational patterns or you want to learn a better partner, learn how to earn a secure attachment style. It will it will transform you and it will transform the way you connect to others. And so there's hope, there's growth.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, hope and growth. I love those, Mark. Liz, what about you? What's your two?

SPEAKER_00

Mark just Mark just took it. Just that we can learn and earn. I think that's just so beautiful. Talk about just a hopeful message, you know, that I don't have to stay this, this, this vacillator and um worked hard on that through my life. But it's really hard. It was really lovely, Mark, to be able to have a name to it. It's like, oh, that describes it beautifully. Right? So I think I felt the same way you did. It's like, oh, now I now we got a word for it. So thank you for that. I'm so glad you took work that was already good and you've expanded upon it. I think it's great. What about you, Dave? What's your greatest takeaway from our time to get with Mark Cameron?

SPEAKER_04

The learn, the earn attachment styles. Never before, I think. Mar Mar, I mean, I grew in in high school, maybe you know, learned about attachment and then for certainly with my degree uh in family studies, learned about attachment style. But never before until this episode right now have I actually ever consciously thought, okay, attachment styles and then sexual relationship and kind of merge those together. And so, yeah, my my mind's kind of blown. I can actually go back and relisten the episode so I can soak more of this in. It's super um helpful, helpful ways. I love the way that you you explain all this, um, Mark. So man, couldn't thank you enough.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean that's the thing. Once once you have a diagnosis, you can do something about it. Yeah, do you have a name to it? And not always bad things, yeah, right? Right, right, right. Categorize and understand.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's a description, it's like, oh, that's what it is. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's not it's not a label that you and that's the great news. It's not a label that you're stuck with, it's just a category for understanding. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah. You start with it's awareness, is the start. And it's this this journey. And uh man, you've been able to provide so many helpful resources to help people on their journey, Mark. So again, thanks so much. Thanks for coming on. We always appreciate you and the wise words that you share, my friend. Thanks for having me on.

Credits And Calls To Subscribe

SPEAKER_04

Okay, that does it for us. We'll see you next time, friends, on another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection Podcast.

SPEAKER_00

And remember, it's the small things that create a stronger marriage connection. Take care now.

SPEAKER_04

Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us a favor and take a second to subscribe to our podcast and the Utah Marriage Commission YouTube channel at Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the show. Be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment, and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at Stronger MarriageLife and Facebook at Stronger Marriage. So be sure to share with us which topics you love, which guests we should have on the show next. If you want even more resources to improve your marriage or relationship connection, visit strongermarriage.org where you'll find free workshops, e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys, and more. Each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, Rex Polanis, and the team at Utah State University, and you, our audience. You make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions, and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.