Stronger Marriage Connection
It's often said that marriage takes work. The Stronger Marriage Connection podcast wants to help because a happy marriage is worth the effort. USU Family Life Professor Dr. Dave Schramm and Clinical Psychologist Dr. Liz Hale talk with experts about the principles and practices that will enhance your commitment, compassion, and emotional connection.
More than ever before, marriages face obstacles, from the busyness of work and daily hassles to disagreements and digital distractions. It's no wonder couples sometimes drift apart, growing resentful, lonely, and isolated.
The Utah Marriage Commission invites you to listen and discover new ways to strengthen and protect your marriage connection today!
Stronger Marriage Connection
Understanding Neurodivergent Needs To Deepen Connection | Matt Zakreski | #169
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We explore how understanding neurodiversity can strengthen love, reduce conflict, and turn differences into design features rather than deficits. Dr. Matthew Zakresky shares science, stories, and practical tools to navigate communication, sensory needs, and executive function in marriage.
• one in five partners as neurodivergent and why it matters
• brain differences in form and function backed by scans
• direct versus indirect communication and meta-communication
• sensory needs at events, home, and intimacy
• “easy is hard, hard is easy” executive function gaps
• introvert–extrovert energy and risk–reward lenses
• assuming positive intent and separating intent from impact
• strengths focus, loyalty, creativity, and info-dumping as intimacy
• designing interdependence and interest-based community
• statistical thinking to normalize conflict and repair
• actionable adaptations voice memos, checklists, environment fit
• resources and where to find Dr. Matt’s work
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Dr. Liz Hale:
Why Neurodiversity Matters In Marriage
SPEAKER_04Did you know that one out of five people are considered neurodiverse? In this episode of Stronger Marriage Connection, Dr. Liz and I sit down with Dr. Matthew Zekresky to explore how understanding neurodiversity can strengthen relationships and increase compassion. We talk about common challenges neurodiverse individuals and couples face, like differences in communication styles, sensory needs, and consistency, and why so many partners simply want to be understood, not fixed. Dr. Matt helps us reframe these experiences by reminding us that differences aren't deficits, and that neurodivergent partners often bring unique strengths and resilience to relationships. We discuss why assuming positive intent, increasing knowledge, and practicing empathy can transform misunderstandings into deeper connection. Dr. Matthew Zakresky is a high energy clinical psychologist, professional speaker, and author who specializes in supporting neurodivergent individuals and families. He has spoken nearly a thousand times worldwide and serves the gifted community as a consultant, professor, researcher, and co-founder of the Neurodiversity Collective. Dr. Matt is also the co-host of the podcast Nerding Out on Neurodiversity and the author of the Neurodiversity Playbook, Helping Neurodivergent People Thrive in a Neurotypical World. We hope you enjoy the show.
Defining Neurodiversity And The 20 Percent
SPEAKER_00Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection. I'm psychologist Dr. Liz Hale, along with the beloved professor, Dr. Dave Schramm, and we're so pleased you're here. We wouldn't have a podcast without you. Dave and I, we've dedicated our life's work to bringing you the best we have and valid marital research, along with a few tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. You know, we often say here on Stronger Marriage Connection, this is an ideal time to be married. Why is that? Because we know more than ever before about what makes marriage thrive and what makes marriage dive. But there is one issue, dear Dave. Our well-known marriage research and advice is commonly written for neurotypical couples. It's time, I think it's even past time, right? That we reach out and support those couples who are, however, neurodiverse, facing different neurological profiles like autism or ADHD. No one wants to be fixed. We just want to be understood. It's an interesting topic, Dave, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so besides for our discussion today, Liz.
SPEAKER_00And one I think that goes ununtapped. We don't say enough about it. Well, we're we're blessed by the facts of neuroscience and how our brain impacts our thoughts, feelings, and behaviors here today to discuss the here today to discuss the differences of our brains and how neurodivergent partners can crack the code of living in a neurotypical world. And marriage is the author of neurodiverg. It's a Monday after a long break. Do it again. Here today to discuss the differences of our brains and how neurodivergent partners can crack the code of living in a neurotypical world in marriage is the author of Neurodiversity Playbook, Dr. Matthew Zakresky. Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection, Dr. Matt.
SPEAKER_08It is a pleasure to be here.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for having me. It is such an honor. Let's start with the definition, please. How do you define neurodiversity in the context of, let's say, this long-term relationship and marriage?
Brain Science And Better Diagnostics
SPEAKER_08So neurodiversity is the diversity of all human brains, right? So that's the umbrella term. And you can break that into two categories neurotypical and neurodivergent. About 80% of people are neurotypical. So the world is built for and by them, and their brains largely work the way we'd expect a brain to work. You know, there's some individual difference, but more or less things are as they would expect to be. And then about 20% of people are neurodivergent. Their brain is different in terms of form and function. So we can look on brain scans and we can see different parts of the brain work differently. There's more of them or less of them, as the case may be. And those brain differences manifest in different behaviors, whether those are intrapersonal, how I feel about me, or interpersonal, how I feel about you.
SPEAKER_00And those are brain scans, PET scans? What do we what do we have? What's the research? I'd love to know.
SPEAKER_08Well, and that's why, you know, there's so much to be like, well, why are all these people so uh neurodivergent all of a sudden? Well, the the technology has caught up with our diagnostic tools. You know, um, you know, for a long time, you know, people would say, well, you can't be autistic, you make eye contact with me. And there are still providers out there who believe that. And now we know that autism as it exists as a spectrum is a neurodevelopmental condition that has almost infinite permutations. Not some autistic people will not make eye contact with you. Some autistic people make too good eye contact, like I'm staring into Dave's soul right now, and like that's making him uncomfortable, right? Because I've been socialized to do that. So now when we can see people's brains and on scans and fMRIs and PET scans, what we see is that it's form and function, right? Like, wow, this part of the brain is like hyper prepared to do this thing, and this part of the brain is underdeveloped. You know, a lot of the kids I work with and a lot of the couples I work with, you know, they've got a 2027 Ferrari Tesserosa between their ears. I mean, a brain is incredible and capable of incredible feats of performance, but the brake system on that sports car is like the little Tyques tricycles we had when we were little. So it's a bad combination. You've got a thing that can ramp up to speed incredibly, but doesn't control itself very well. And that can lead to a lot of friction within yourself and in your relationships.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's that's super helpful, Dr. Matt, that and that analogy. So, and that's even a larger group than than I was aware of. So, about 20% uh you're saying, Dr. Matt. So that's a significant right group of couples that are often overlooked, especially I would say in relationship, marriage education. A lot of what I uh focus on, I research, I teach with relationship, family life education. So here's our chance to set the record straight, Dr. Matt. What are the most common challenges that neurodiverse couples face and which are perhaps the most misunderstood?
Three Big Challenges For Couples
SPEAKER_08Oh my goodness. Um so let's break it down into three things. My brain tends to think in threes. So the first thing is differences of communication styles. So, you know, in you know, that we know that um some people are direct communicators and some people are guest communicators, right? It's like, here's what I want, versus like, boy, I sure hope you don't get me this thing for my birthday. And I have to like crack that interpersonal code. It's like, Dave, do you want me to get you the shirt or not? You're like, no, no, no, don't get me anything, so I don't get you anything. And you're like, but I wanted the shirt. It's like, Dave, you have to ask me for the shirt, man. Uh, right? So neurodivergent people tend to be very direct communicators, right? We tend to be very blunt and to the point. And since a lot of interpersonal norms in American culture are based around guest communication, a lot of times we sort of rub people the wrong way. But it's like, what am I, what am I, I mean, when this couple they've been friends, friends of ours for 15 years, they're the godparents to my daughter, you know, when we're when we'll be hanging out, all of a sudden, you know, one of them will get up and be like, all right, I'm done with this now, and she'll get up and she'll leave. And for some people, it rub them the wrong way. To me, it's like she was done hanging out and now she's done hanging out and she left. How often, Dave, have you been at at a conference or a dinner or a conversation? You're like, how does this thing end? Right? Because we're trying to navigate those nuances. So communication is the first thing. The second thing is um sensory needs. Now, sensory things, we could spend the entire hour talking about how neurodivergent people tend to have areas of sensory overexcitability and sensory undereccitability. So, you know, I'm one of those people like I am a sensory seeker. I like spicy food and strong beer and loud music. I'm like a sensory seeker. My wife, who's also neurodivergent, is a sensory avoider. So she's someone she's like, I can't leave the house if my socks are wrong. And you know, and and like for all the listeners out there, like, wait, that the sock thing is real? Yes, the sock thing is real. Um but those are things we don't talk a lot about sensory needs. So if you know, like think of it, like, you know, one thing that couples do is they go to weddings together. Right? Weddings are a sensory nightmare. They're loud, you're wearing uncomfortable shoes and uncomfortable clothes, you're probably wearing makeup, the room is loud and there's loud music, and there's lots of small talk, and it's like sensorally overwhelming. But it's like, but then it's like, but we're supposed to be here having fun together. If weddings aren't your thing, they're not gonna be fun for you, right? So it's a sensory thing. And then the third piece of this is sort of inconsistencies in behavior. And you could you could really distill the neurodivergent experience into this idea that like easy things are hard for us and hard things are easy for us. Right? So if you wanted me to throw a 20-person dinner party together tonight on the fly, I could do that for you. But do I have any idea where my car keys are? I do not. So that can lead to a lot of uh misunderstandings and hurt feelings between couples because if I'm your partner and I've seen you throw together a dinner party on a moment's notice, but then you don't know where you put that folder we really need. It's it's it's easy to judge somebody based on their potential rather than the performance. And that can lead to a lot of sort of hurt feelings and personal attacks.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Oh man. Dr. Matt, that was super helpful just walking through those because I find uh, you know, I I have a nephew, for example, and I a neighbor, you know, and I just can this is all just clicking, and there may be even times, gotta be honest, where I feel like I'm overstimulated in certain, you know, there's just a lot going on, and I can't wait to be like, okay, I just sometimes I'm just a homebody, to be honest. And there's it's just too much and loud and noise. Like, ah, I I got it. Liz, are you that way, or have you ever felt like, okay, I just pretty much so we'll be right back after this brief message?
Sensory Needs At Home And Events
SPEAKER_07And we're back. Let's dive right in.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think sometimes we look at that as introvert, extrovert, right? I mean, is there some type of style in that too, Matt? Well, something to figure out?
SPEAKER_08Many, many neurodivergent people are introverted. And the common understanding of introverts as socially avoidant sort of misses the point. Um, the best way to think about any anything on the introversion-extroversion scale is about how do you receive energy? Adding the energy in like a woo-woo sort of way, but like I'm an extrovert. I'm very extroverted. If I'm tired, I want to go out and see my friends because that charges me up. My wife, if she's tired, she's like, here is my blanket, here is my Netflix, leave me alone for 12 to 16 hours. And then she'll be charged back up. And people say, Well, I can't be an introvert because I get very hype around my friends. I'm like, but see, that's the thing. Once you've crossed into that introvert bubble, then they feel safe around you and they can let that energy out. Um, you know, so I, you know, I mean, I'm a human golden retriever. You put me on an airplane and I'm like, you're my new best friend, and like we're gonna land in Salt Lake City, we're gonna go out and get some beers, or we're gonna you're gonna take me to the really good bagel store, and I'm like, yes. Whereas like it takes a long time for my wife to feel comfortable with that, just like a lot of my clients will feel a long time for them to feel comfortable. But once you're in, woo, you're in, right? So it's really about how you get that energy and where introversion extroversion can rub up against um other people, especially as it pertains to relationships, is that extroverts tend to be reward driven. Introverts tend to be consequence averse. So if we map that onto common neuro neurodivergences, ADHDers tend to be reward-driven. Oh man, I could go try I could go eat that cookie right now. And autistic people, by and large, tend to be consequence averse. I can't ask for that cookie because I might get in trouble. You know, so years ago, when my wife and I lived in Philadelphia, my best friend was in town for a conference and I had to work all day. So I got off work at eight o'clock. I was like, I can go see him now. And my wife is like, it is snowing. It is, there's four inches of snow on the ground and it's still coming down. Um, and I'm like, but I could see my friend. And that's the classic introvert, extrovert, neurodivergent dynamic. Because I'm like, but a good thing could happen. And my wife's like, but a bad thing might happen. We're both right. That's the thing. It's like neither of us is like, you know, making up things here. We're just seeing the thing in, you know, in two very different ways.
SPEAKER_00I love that. So then what happens next? Do you go out and she stays home? Tell me what's an option.
SPEAKER_08You know, and as a psychologist, right? I mean, I always say communication's gonna save the world, right? Because you it's about it's about framing those conversations in a way that doesn't feel personal. It's like, I know you want to see your friend, but I'm worried about these variables. Not you can't go. Because if it's you can't go, it makes me want to go. You know, human nature, right? You tell me I can't do it, I'm gonna find out a way to do it. But if it comes from a place of compassion and empathy, then what you end up seeing is this is how you express care for me. I may not like it or understand it, or even want to receive it. But if I know that comes from a place of good intention, then that conversation is gonna be much more productive. Um, and really like an empathy and perspective taking their skills. Those are things that neurodivergent people tend to struggle with. Um, you know, when I speak at conferences, you know, I usually be like, okay, is anybody in this room like Star Wars? And everybody nods, because I mean, I'm a we're all nerds, right? We're professional nerds. And I'm like, so my favorite Star Wars movie is Return of the Jedi. And Dave, are you a Star Wars guy?
SPEAKER_04I am, I do like Star Wars. I grew up with Star Wars.
Introvert–Extrovert Energy And Risk
SPEAKER_08That was pretty, it was a pretty easy read using all of my doctor skills on that one. Uh so Dave's like, oh, my favorite is Empire Strikes Back. Now, the classic neurodivergent view of this is I'm right and Dave is wrong. But it's but what matters is that we both like Star Wars, right? That's if we zoom out, that's the thing. So, you know, as a couple, that might turn into like, I want date night to be, we're going to a fancy restaurant and we're gonna go see a show, and we're gonna get a hotel room, and then we're gonna have a great night in the hotel room, and we'll leave in the morning. And your partner might be like, all I want to do is see you. Can we order in Chinese and watch something on Hulu? And and so it's like, just because I want it doesn't mean I'm right. It just means that that's what I want of a million possibilities of what somebody might want. So getting out of this I'm right, you're wrong mindset into here's what I believe, and here's what you believe, Liz, and here's what you believe, Dave, that always leads itself to more productive conversations.
SPEAKER_00So, Matt, how do you how does some of the sensory needs, the the routines or the even the burnout affect married life of our couples facing these differences?
SPEAKER_08You know, I mean, I I think that this is where like all like a lot of good conversations start with psychoeducation, right? You know, I mean in the therapy world, we always say we name it to tame it, right? But if I don't know that there's a word for this thing, how can I name it? Right. One of the talks I do is on imposter syndrome, and I always tell the story, it's like I didn't know there was a word for that. So I like I was trying to write my dissertation, right? We've all written dissertation level things that's like, oh, everybody already knows this. I couldn't possibly do this. And you're like, wait, that's imposter syndrome? There's a word for this, and then it helps you frame those conversations. Yes, so it's like a relief, right? It's like, oh so like if your if your partner has sensory needs around makeup or you know, I mean, like, you know, we're all adults here, right? Like, you know, like if you know you're gonna have some adult sexy time, and you and your version of that is my partner's gonna wear sexy lingerie, well, lingerie tends to be lacy and strappy, two things that cause sensory discomfort for people. So, and as one of my clients pop is fond of putting it, he's like, there's no sexier lingerie than I'm naked, right? And you know, so like that might read to somebody as you're not trying. But if I see that through the lens of you have sensory needs, and this is how you're gonna express this part of our relationship, like yeah, I mean, guys, like some of those fancy lingerie kits, it feels like you need like a map and like a keypad and like bolt cutters. I I like who's got that kind of time? I'm old. So, like, you know, like, but these are the ways that those sensory needs might manifest. That, like, you know, maybe your partner doesn't like to be touched while they sleep. It doesn't mean they don't want to share a bed with you. It just means they want to be on the east quadrant of the bed and I'll be on the south quadrant of the bed, and we all move on with our lives, right? But those conversations come are much more successful if they come from a place of shared understanding, which is why we have to have these conversations about all the pieces of the neurodivergent experience.
Communicating With Empathy And Intent
SPEAKER_00So funny, David, Matt. I'm laughing because as a as a baby, the story is told when I was young. My dad would have to lay down next to my crib and I'd I'd stick my hand out of the crib and he would hold it. I needed that touch from a very young age. So, fast forward several decades, my husband and I married late in life, Matt. And um, I I still love to reach out and touch. I love to fall asleep that way. Oh, and he cannot stand that. My, you know, my touch is too hot and usually got lotion on it, doesn't like that sticky feel. So that really took some adjustment that, oh wow, his sensory, he's very sensitive with the sensory. And I crave it and he so I have had to use just respect, right? That I have to respect. I can take care of my, you know, my myself here and realize that this is not personal, but it's about respecting him and how he is put together. So I love this talk about the sensory. Makes such sense. You know, I I think that it it seems that in all marriages, our differences can either be difficult, perhaps, or just distinctive, like that. What strengths do you feel neuro neurodivergent? I have a hard time having that word, Matt. I don't know why. What strengths do neurodivergent partners uh bring into marriage? What do you find?
SPEAKER_08And that's and I love that you're asking that question because so much of the conversation I have with people and partners and and schools in particular is don't be a deficit detective. Search for strengths. Listen, it's easy to figure out the stuff we're bad at. It stares us in the face, right? If your partner is the kind of person who needs to be reminded for your anniversary, it is easy to get stuck on that. But let's also think about the fact that your partner will then compensate or overcompensate by doing the best anniversary surprise ever. Right? Like, because neurodivergent people tend to be outside the box thinkers, they tend to come up with solutions. Or make connections other people wouldn't make. So it's like, do you really want 37 years of scarves for your anniversary? I mean, I'm sure those are lovely scarves, but at some point you want to pivot into something, right? So the idea is, you know, neurodivergent people do well with what we call meta communication, talking about talking. You know, so I might sit down and say, like, hey, I need to have a hard conversation with you. It's not because I'm mad at you, but it's because there's a hard thing we need to talk about. Right. And we've all received the text from our partner at some point in our lives where it's like, we need to talk, and our brains go explode, right? That's but like, so I can use meta communication, be like, we need to talk about these things, and I understand it's bringing up this stuff for you. Right. And like when you have those conversations, it's like it doesn't make it better, but it makes it suck less. And sometimes that keeps us enough in the green zone that we that the conversation doesn't turn into a fight, it just stays an unpleasant conversation. And sometimes that's the best we can do. So like we're outside the box thinkers, we're incredibly, you know, we're incredibly loyal. We, you know, we have strong senses of justice, which can work for us or against us. Um, but you know, I think we're all sort of hungry to learn. And, you know, the best thing about having neurodivergent friends is like we get to, you know, with with what we call info dump. So it's like, oh, tell me about this podcast you're listening to. It's like, oh well, it's you know, it's about the uh evolution of games as Warcraft in the mind people. And I'm like, that's the most coolest series of words I've ever heard in my life. Tell me about that immediately. Whereas like some people in your life would give you this sort of uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. All right, well, time to talk about me again. Like, you know, so um wow. So we need more neurodivergent people in our lives. You know, and one of the one of the really powerful things about understanding that one out of every five people is neurodivergent is that if you're not neurodivergent and your partner's not neurodivergent, I guarantee you you have a friend who is, right? Other people are, and and part of the reason we say this one out of five thing is that it's not this is not some tiny thing that nobody has to deal with. We're all people who have to interact with neurodivergent people, whether it's at, whether it's the IT guy at your company or your sister-in-law, or your, you know, your kid's best friend whose ADHD is the day is long. Like all of those, the we all interact with neurodivergent people. And neurodivergent people can make some parts of your life better and some parts of your life worse. And one of my therapy go-tos is that I'll say that neurodiversity is always context, but it's never an excuse. Right? So, one flavor of my neurodivergence is I'm colorblind. You'll notice I'm not wearing a tie because ties are really hard to match to shirts when you're colorblind. And he's like, Well, why don't you just wear white shirts, Dr. Matt? Because those are me, yes. Well, I have children, and now why are you wearing white around children? It's just sort of a non-starter. Um, but it means when I speak at a conference, I have my shirts and my ties that go together, and I always bring those shirts and ties because I know they go together. I want to look professional. I don't get a pass because I'm colorblind. I have to adapt my behavior to make sure that the thing works. So if your partner is dyslexic, you may not be able to give them a text message to remind them to get the thing at the grocery store, but you send them a voice memo. Doesn't that work? Right here we are, we're just playing to somebody's strengths and weaknesses rather than just trying to jam that round peg into a square hole and wondering why there's friction.
Naming Sensory Needs In Intimacy
SPEAKER_04Man, I love that, Matt. There's just all kinds of light bulbs going on in my in my mind. The whole strengths thing. I mean, can we talk a little bit more about that? Can neurodiverse marriages, for example, be healthier or even more resilient in certain ways than neurotypical marriages?
SPEAKER_02I think they can.
SPEAKER_08And I think one of the ways that we can do this is understanding the power of community and the power of interest. Right? Giving yourselves permission as individual people in a couple, whether it's a couple of two or a couple of three or a polyamorous collective, whatever that thing might be. You know, it's um, for instance, I enjoy craft beer and I enjoy sports. My wife hates both of those things, right? Which means if it's a Friday night, I'm like, hey, I'm gonna go with my buddy who enjoys craft beer and live sports to the pub and I'm going to do those two things. My wife's like, great, I'm gonna stay at home and do my crafts. And I'm an artistic person, but I don't have the energy, I don't have the executive functioning skills for crafting, right? So my wife's gonna enjoy that a lot more by herself. Like I'm gonna enjoy myself. We're not trying to fit each other into each other's lives as a default. We get to fit each other into each other's lives intentionally. You know, we both enjoy the theater, so we'll go to theater shows together. We both enjoy hiking, we'll do that together. You know, there are some shows my wife's you know brought me into the world of. There's some, you know, I'm a big comic book guy. I'm like, I think you'll really like this comic book. And now she's more into comic book culture, right? So there are but like you can like you know, the power of therapy, right, is that we make the unspoken spoken. One of the cool things about being neurodivergent is that since you're outside of the monoculture, you can see it's like what parts of this do I want to opt into and what parts of this do I want to opt out of? And you can take that mindset to your relationship. Are we the kind of people who need to have a date night once a month? Not because we will fall out of love, but because we won't, if we don't schedule it, it won't happen. Right? That's an intentional metacommunicative conversation. Whereas a lot of neurotypical couples would be like, well, we just have we're gonna have a date night at some point, right? And understanding your unique strengths and weaknesses allows you, at least in my professional opinion, to play to your strengths and avoid your weaknesses as much as possible. Right. And if you're doing that from a place of shared understanding, then your feelings are much less likely to get hurt, you know, because you know where that's coming from rather than like, oh, my partner hates my parents, right? Or whatever that might be.
SPEAKER_05We'll be right back after this brief message.
SPEAKER_07And we're back. Let's dive right in.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, man, I'm curious if you could you know snap your fingers or you know, grant a wish here, and uh you know, what changes, I guess, would you like to see in how we as a society can better support neurodiverse marriages, couples?
Strengths, Meta-Communication, And Loyalty
SPEAKER_08The entire neurodiversity movement boils down to this one sentence. And so if I was gonna start anywhere, I'd start here is that differences aren't deficits. Right? So if you're if you go to visit your buddy from work and their partner is reserved and quiet and working on their Minecraft or their um mini figs, or or they want to play a board game with you, they're not being weird or avoidant. They're they're trying to test the waters to see if they can share a love language with you. Right. And that's so it's like, wow, that's different. Well, it doesn't mean it's worse, right? You know, I frankly I would much rather test drive a board game I've never played than having the obligatory conversation of the weather or local sport team, or how about that politics? I like, you know, I don't really want to do those things. So differences aren't deficits, but we've gotta expand that outward from a to a place of having conversations about what parts of those differences are working and what parts of those we might need to change. You know, and you know, like a lot of times, like I had I have a client who's in college right now and he's working on dating skills. And so he will ask girls, um, he's like, hey, are you interested in hooking up with me? And the girls will be like, I don't know, maybe. And he'll be like, Cool, let me take you out to dinner. Because he's like, Why would I take a girl out to dinner if I didn't know she wanted to hook up with me? I'm like, Well, you're either a mad genius or you're gonna get slapped in the face, dude. I I can actually can't tell what the answer is there. Um, but the you know, but our rules are is like you have to you have to practice affirmative consent and you have to you can't be creepy in how you go about this. But if you're like, hey, I'm attracted to you and you're attracted to me, let's see if something's going on here. That's not an unreasonable question. So we've worked a lot on how he's phrasing it. Like, I'm like, you're not gonna ask the girl you sit next to in chem 102 in the middle of lecture. He's like, right, right, because that would be bad. I'm like, right, and why would it be bad? He's like, I'm not actually sure why it would be bad, I just know it would be. I'm like, that's an okay place to start that conversation, dude. Um does the thing, like that may not, it may not work for you, but you're not the main character of that story, right? If it's working for him and it seems to be, then as long as he's not bothering anybody else, we're okay.
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm. So perspective taking, even, you know, seeing it from her perspective maybe may be challenging, right? Is that what you're saying? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And take your responsibility, I think, too. Like you said, I'm responsible for being colorblind, right? I'm still responsible for how I show up or how I um how I come across in in dating and mating. Yeah, I, you know, you've you've touched on this, Matt, but maybe just what what overarching, what is this successful marriage look like when viewed through a neuro, neurodiverse affirming lens? What's the big overarching picture, please?
SPEAKER_08So I really I mean, like if any healthy relationship is two independent people growing together, then that's really we we don't want interdependence, right? Well, sorry, we don't want dependence, we want interdependence, right? There are times I need my wife, there are times my wife needs me, and there are times we do our own thing. And that and all of those things are part of a the kaleidoscope of a healthy relationship. I also I think it's important to it's funny, I'm not a math guy, but um, you know, because like giftedness is a part of neurodivergence, and I grew up as a gifted kid. My gifts are in the humanities, right? Writing, reading, art, that's that's where I hang. I'm not a STEM guy. But one of the things I tell a lot of my families when I do family therapy or my couples when I do couples counseling is neurodivergent brains tend to default to all or nothing thinking. I this relationship is good or this relationship is bad. But like that's not it's not that simple, right? There's much more shades of gray. So what I think is like think of it as a statistical distribution. You are statistically guaranteed to have bad days. You're statistically guaranteed to have a certain number of fights with your partner as the year goes on. Maybe it's money, maybe it's sex, maybe you're just tired, maybe you keep taking the wrong way out of the grocery store. I'm not sure, but you are statistically guaranteed, just like you are statistically guaranteed to have nights of really great sex and really wonderful conversations. And like, you know, you guys both like the same some of the same shows or some of the same books. So, like the idea of like seeing things as statistical inevitabilities blunts the impact of why did we get into a fight? Because it's easy for our brains to get hijacked into that we got into a fight, we're gonna break up, we're gonna get divorced, who are the kids gonna live with, where am I gonna spend holidays? We're all humans, right? We all we all sort of sometimes we screw up and sometimes we say things we don't mean, and sometimes we get our feelings hurt, and that's but seeing that as part of the mosaic of a functional, healthy relationship rather than like the canary in the coal mine that's dying, I think that it helps us to set expectations and keep our emotional reactivity down so we can be more responsive, not reactive.
SPEAKER_04Matt, I've never thought about it that way, but all of a sudden there's another light bulb that just clicked on in my own mind is is seeing, hey, this statistically, right? We're gonna have yeah, good days and arguments and bad days, and all these things are going to happen. And it doesn't mean it's gonna be doom and gloom, but yeah, on average, we're gonna have all of these. And so if I have a bad day, then then my mind can go there and say, yeah, yep, I I can expect that because relationships are gonna have ups and downs instead of I'm doomed. So man, I don't know. I just had not again thought about it like that.
SPEAKER_00It is very reassuring, I think, right? I I just I I love that. Normalizes marriage, normalizes us as people. We're just mere immortals. Matt, you have a generous oh, excuse me, go ahead.
Community, Interests, And Intentional Design
SPEAKER_08And it doesn't mean we have to like it, right? Acceptance and commitment theory doesn't mean like, oh, I'm I'm upset, I lost my job. Well, I'm happy that I'm upset that I lost my job, but it just means this is how I feel right now, and feeling that way is normal and and unvalued, right? It is, I'm not happy when I fight with my wife any more than I'm happy when I have a bad therapy session. But I know that no matter how hard I work, I can't make the rate of that zero. All I can do is take the denominator, which is the lower number on the fraction, make it as big as I can. Right? One of my first jobs was I was a bartender and I was and I tell this story when I talk about perfectionism. I'm like, I had unloaded eight cases of beer, and then I dropped the ninth one and it shattered. And the guy was streaming me, he's like, all right, so today your failure rate's one out of nine. Tomorrow trying to make it one out of 20, and then one out of 23, and then one out of 30, and then and I never dropped another case of beer. So I could never make the the failure rate zero. It was always gonna be a one in the numerator. But you know, I probably unloaded a thousand, fifteen hundred cases of beer when I worked there. One out of 1500 is not bad, right? So if you're gonna have, you know, 30 fights a year with your partner, 30 out of 365 is not terrible. And see if we can make that number a little bit smaller next year. Maybe we go from 30 to 26. But no, you'll never get to zero.
SPEAKER_02I love that.
SPEAKER_00But you'll never get to zero, and it's really quite beautiful and such a picture of hope.
SPEAKER_06We'll be right back after this brief message.
SPEAKER_00You have a generous website, Matthew, and of course, it's this latest book, Neurodiversity Playbook. Where can our friends here on Stronger Marriage Connection find out more about you and all the helpful resources you offer? And then we're going to add that information to our show notes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08So I have two primary jobs. Um I'm a full-time clinical psychologist. So I always say if you need me for you as a person, you go to our therapy practice website, which is the neurodiversitycollective.com. And my team and I, we have um three other therapists, including me. We see people from all over the country all over the country. We do what we can to help people out. Um, and then if you're like, wow, he keeps like, you know, shoehorning the fact that he gives talks into this podcast. Very subtle, Dr. Matt. We love that for you. Um, but I always like to say if you need me for your organization, that's dr. Matt Sakresky.com. And that's where I do consulting or speaking. Um, you know, I'm often at conferences or workshops or webinars. Um, just trying to take the, you know, the this idea of trying to make this concept of neurodiversity tangible and accessible for everybody because it does impact all of us from our households to our workplaces to our lives. One way or another. Yeah. There's a version of me for everybody.
SPEAKER_04That's yeah, man, man. This is uh, Dr. Matt, this has been such a treat. Hey, before we let you go, we like to ask all of our guests uh a couple questions. The first one is what do you feel like is a key to a stronger marriage?
SPEAKER_08I think for me, what unlocks what once unlocked every healthy relationship I have in my life, certainly my marriage, is assume positive intent. You know, I think that you know, one of the things we talked about in the therapy space a lot is the difference between intention and impact. I might I'm like, wow, my wife had a tough day. I'm gonna go buy her flowers. And my wife is allergic to pansies. She's not, but theoretically, in this example, it doesn't matter how good my intentions were if my wife is allergic to panic pansies and now has to use her epipin. And once she's calmed down, she can understand that while the impact of my action was not aligned with my intent, my intent also matters in how we see that, right? So when somebody you love gives you feedback, their intent may not be to hurt you. The impact may be hurtful, but you might say that that might be a place of accountability or support or feedback rather than like, here's just another person who thinks I suck. And so if we assume positive intent, that allows us to have a healthier relationship with the difference between intention and impact.
Differences Aren’t Deficits In Society
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm. Ah, I love that. That's super good. Um, another question is uh, what do you what's your takeaway? Takeaway of the day is what we call a take-home message you want our listeners to remember from our discussion.
SPEAKER_08That to quote Maya Angelo, you do as well as you can until you know better, and then you do better. Like, for some people listening to this, this might be some of the first times they've heard any of these words. And I'm not gonna judge you or shame you for not knowing stuff you didn't know. But you might be sitting there, like, wait, everybody doesn't have mad it mad problems with their socks and bras and and makeup and earrings. Like, no, those might be symptoms of being neurodivergent. And like, there's a whole community around this, and you can get the support you need. I can't blame you for not knowing better. But now that you do know better, then you can do better. And that's you know, I always like we always say knowledge is power, right? I like to say knowledge is empowerment. So if this podcast informed you, empower yourself with knowledge and be a better person and a better professional and a better parent, and most importantly, a better partner. Because if we can't show for the people we love most, then what's the point of all this, right?
SPEAKER_04Ah, super powerful. Liz, what about you? What's your takeaway today with Dr. Matt?
SPEAKER_00Um, you know, of course, I love that differences do not mean deficits. I just think that's brilliant to remember. It doesn't mean that between us as partners or even us as marriages, right? Our marriage compared to somebody else's marriage. I love that. And whatever you focus on grows. Am I going to focus on what's annoying me and my husband forgets the anniversary? I need a reminder, or am I going to focus on um, gosh, when he does remember it, it's phenomenal. Or the other good things that are are in this partnership. And Dave, what about you? What's your favorite takeaway from our time together today with Dr. Matthew Dunis?
SPEAKER_04Man, all kinds of stuff. I I hope, yeah, Matt, that I uh walk away from this, that I now can do better. I know more. Um, a lot of light bulbs I mentioned have have gone on. And so I am just express gratitude, sincere appreciation. Uh, a wonderful topic we have not had. So glad we're able to have you on. It's it's sorry it's taking so long to be able to get this uh to really address this topic well. So uh thank you. Thanks for your time. Thanks for coming on and sharing, for doing what you're doing, um, spreading just awareness, knowledge uh can go a long way. And hopefully, as you mentioned, now that we know better, we can we can be better, we can do better. Uh so man, hats off to you, my friend. This is super helpful.
SPEAKER_08Well, it's my great pleasure. And you guys created the space where I could share it. So that's you know, I can't do I can't I can't be a best guest on a podcast if there isn't a podcast, right? So great job to you two for making this space.
SPEAKER_04Ah, well, that does it for us, our friends. We'll see you next time on another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection Podcast.
SPEAKER_00And remember, it's the small and simple things that create a stronger marriage connection. See you soon.
SPEAKER_03Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us a favor and take a second to subscribe to our podcast and the Utah Marriage Commission YouTube channel at Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the show. Be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment, and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at StrongerMarriage Life and Facebook at Stronger Marriage. So be sure to share with us which topics you loved or which guests we should have on the show next. If you want even more resources to improve your marriage or relationship connection, visit strongermarriage.org where you'll find free workshops, e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys, and more. Each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, Rex Polanis, and the team at Utah State University, and you, our audience, you make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions, and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.