Why Dating is in Decline & How to Fix It | Brian Willoughby | #172

We explore why dating feels harder, how on-demand culture reshapes expectations, and what AI companions and pornography are doing to our ideas of love. Dr. Brian Willoughby shares research, skills, and hopeful strategies for parents, teens, and singles who want real connection.

• falling dating rates and fading norms among teens and young adults
• benefits and costs of dating apps, including rejection mindset
• updated divorce data and how agency and skills shift risk
• on-demand expectations versus the effort of real relationships
• rise of AI companions and the “sugar high” of synthetic intimacy
• pornography’s impact on expectations, satisfaction and stability
• practical skills for starting relationships and building resilience
• guidance for parents on modeling, monitoring and positive messaging
• keys to stronger marriages through mutual focus and sacrifice

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Dr. Liz Hale: 

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Transcript

Brian Willougby Introduction

SPEAKER_03 0:03

In today's episode, Dr. Liz and I welcome Dr. Brian Willoughby to the show as we dive into the deep waters of modern dating. We explore everything from the rise of AI companionship and on demand relationships to major cultural shifts in dating norms, to why dating feels harder than ever for young adults today. We also talk about the hidden influence of pornography, what parents need to understand about today's dating landscape, and practical guidance you can share with your children. Brian brings research-backed insights, cultural awareness, and actionable advice that will open your eyes to what's really happening in today's dating world and what we can do about it. Dr. Brian Willoughby is a professor of family life at Brigham Young University. He earned his bachelor's degree in psychology from BYU and his master's and PhD in family social science from the University of Minnesota. Brian has published over 100 research articles on young adult development, dating, marriage, and sexuality, and he's the author of two books, The Marriage Paradox and The Millennial Marriage. His work has been featured in major media outlets like USA Today, The Washington Post, ABC News, and Psychology Today, and he serves in editorial roles for leading academic journals. We hope you enjoy the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection. I'm psychologist Dr. Liz Hale, along with the beloved professor, Dr. Dave Schram. Together we have dedicated our life's work to bringing you the best we have in valid marital research, along with a few tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. Okay, Dave.

SPEAKER_03 1:49

Yeah, yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Yep, yep. And the research spells it out today, anyway, about our dear millennials. And um I, you know, I was older when I married. It wasn't purposeful. I sure tried to get married younger. It didn't work so well. Um, but more millennials, it turns out, are waiting to get married, even here in Utah, where members of the LDS faith typically marry younger than most young adults in other states, but we're kind of catching up to the norms, it seems like. Across the globe, we're delaying marriage and delaying having children. Have you ever wondered what's behind the love weight? Let's stop I'm gonna try that again. Have you ever wondered what's behind the love weight relationship and the recent trend to putting off saying I do? Well, Dr. Brian Willoughby, professor of this Dr. Brian Willoughby, professor in the School of Family Life at Brigham Young University and then at Brigham Young University and an expert on young adult relationships is here to tell us all about it. Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection, dear Brian.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

It's great to be here. Thank you, Liz.

Why is Dating In Decline?

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Pleasure. You have such a thoughtful, meaningful voice on dating research and deciphering what we think versus what predicts long-term stability. Two years ago, you spoke at the United Nations in New York about why marriage and family matter most. Well, you're making a difference for good in the world, Dr. Brian Willoughby. But it seems like today dating is just different, to say the least, isn't it? And in some situations, I think dating is not happening at all. Like you said, maybe not even in high school yet. Why is dating harder now than ever before, ever before?

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Yeah, there's a lot that's going into it right now that's making it hard. And that's the thing I hear a lot from from millennials, from Gen X, from teenagers, from young adults, is it's hard. Dating feels so much harder. And I think a lot of us are like, well, dating's always been hard. It's, it's, it's always been something that's had difficulty and challenge. But there's some very unique challenges to dating now for young adults and teenagers. And a lot of it, and I'm sure we'll get into a lot of the specifics, but a lot of it comes down to a lack of norms. We used to have a pretty clear template for what dating was supposed to look like, when it was supposed to happen, who was asking who, what a date even looked like, what a date even meant, um, what it meant to be dating someone. Uh, and and now, like in a lot of parts of our lives, when it comes to family life and marriages, a lot of those norms have really disappeared for young adults. And in the absence of those norms, they are left to figure things out on their own with an almost infinite number of choices in a culture that has started to really de-emphasize both romantic relationships, marriage, family, human connection. And so a lot of them are really struggling with how do I continue to maintain an emphasis in my life on dating and marriage? How do I even navigate that when I don't even know what it's supposed to look like or how you do it anymore? Um, and so all those things combine to uh not just a challenge of dating, but a lot of exhaustion, a lot of fear, and more and more young adults kind of putting their hands up and saying, you know what, I just don't even know if this is worth it anymore.

Dating Sites

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Yeah. Yeah. I may just wait for the next phase of life, right? In the millennium, I heard some of my friends say, and I just, you know who are LBS. I just kind of wanted it for this life, right? And um, what do you what do you think of um single sites, right? The dating sites.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Yeah. So it's the dating sites do do one really helpful thing. Um, and then a lot of things that are are are not as helpful uh to singles. The the one thing I always like to start with the positive, uh, before it sounds like I'm just gonna bag on all these dating sites and dating apps. Um, the one thing they do that are is actually really helpful is access. Um, you know, one of the first hurdles in dating is how do I meet people? How do I find people? Um, a lot of singles, particularly in their 20s and 30s and 40s, uh, will talk a lot about dating burnout, first date burnout. I I can't go on another first date. I can't go on another second date. Um, that doesn't go anywhere. It costs money, it takes time. And so online dating and these dating websites and dating apps, they do allow you to get access to more people and do some helpful filtering. Um, those first dates that probably weren't going to go anywhere, you can probably filter some of those people out through uh ideally looking not just at their picture, but actually reading their profile, talking to them a little bit uh online. Uh, you can do a little bit of that filtering. And I do think that's that's helpful. Um, having said that, um, one of the other things that they do, though, that feeds into some of these unique challenges of dating is they offer someone a lot of very high frequency access to rejection. That's one of the things that comes out in the research on dating apps and dating websites. One of the reasons why we're actually seeing a pullback from these sites for a lot of singles is when I'm swiping, a lot of them are swipe-based, or even going through profiles. Um, I might do that dozens and dozens, maybe you know, a hundred times over the course of a week or two. And maybe I get a couple matches. And and and from an outsider's perspective, that's great. You match with a couple people, but psychologically, I just got rejected 97 times. Yes. And people feel that. It creates what's called a rejection mindset that I'm just kind of used to getting rejected. It increases our anxiety. And as as we see a lot, one of the biggest dating barriers for singles right now is that fear and that anxiety of the process. And so a lot of times these dating apps just feed into that.

The Fear of Dating

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Just last thing, Dave and Brian, if you don't mind. So I met my husband on a dating site. So I was really grateful for that. LDS single is not very popular these days. Um, but it's you're trying, you're right, because I had to go on for a while and then I have to just get off. I just couldn't, heart couldn't take it. So it was back and forth. So I know exactly what you're saying.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

Yeah, Brian. Let's keep going with that fear a little bit because that's that's interesting. Kind of the this fear of uh of rejection, this fear of maybe not working out, and this 97 people that just turned me down. I mean, uh these fears, they sound absolutely I mean, they they are realistic, that they can be paralyzing, they can be uh even somewhat damaging a little bit, right? What I mean, talk a little bit about broadly the the stats, the statistics for people. And it feels like this is you know, they're all over the place or last decade, things have changed and they're up and down. I mean, really, what is the the the likelihood of of their dating turning into marriage and then their marriage working out? Is it the fear of you know rejection, the fear of things not working out, or the fear of divorce? Where share some of the stats that you're aware of?

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Yeah. Well, I think starting at the end, like you said, Dave, in terms of marriage statistics, um, I think sometimes when people learn the marriage statistics, it actually surprises them because uh our divorce rate has been generally coming down. I mean, it peaked uh back in the 80s and 90s. Uh, it's been coming down, it fluctuates. Um, but we haven't seen a massive change in the amount of marriages that are successful. Um, and we always have to remind people, because people still kind of hold on to this 50% of marriages fail. Um, but for for most people that have you know good education, some family support, uh, you know, decent interpersonal skills, the rate of divorce is actually for most people much lower than that. And so a lot of people that actually make the transition to marriage have success. We still have a lot of research that says that healthy marriages are still one of the best, if not the best, predictor of lifelong happiness and physical health and mental health. Um, and so the marriage stats are actually pretty good and pretty healthy. Now, the one marriage stat that that is going down is just the number of people getting married. The marriage rate continues to decline, um, even if the people that are making that transition to marriage are still generally having a fair amount of success. And that's a trickle-down effect of what we see with the dating stats, which is over the last particularly 15 years, almost every marker we have of human connection has been decreasing. So marriage rates have been going down, uh, but we've also seen dating rates uh go down. Uh, it was just part of a large national study. Uh, we released some of our findings actually just a couple weeks ago uh that we did as part of the joint project with the Utah Marriage Commission. And we were looking at national statistics on dating. And one of the numbers that really stood out to us, this was a national sample in the United States, 22 to 35 year olds, uh, so really wide range of people that uh said that they wanted to get married. That was one of the things. We we didn't want the people that said, I want nothing to do with marriage. These are all people that were single and said at some level they wanted to get married. The number of serious relationships on average that these people had in their entire life was three. That was the average number of committed relationships, it was about three. Um, and most of them said that they had not been going actively on dates in the last year. And that mirrors some other research that we've seen where just dating is slowly, you know, disappearing sounds like a strong word, but it kind of is in a lot of ways, is dating rates are down. Um, even if you look at things like sexual activity rates, there's there's been a lot of things in the research in the news about sexual recession. Because we used to see, okay, well, people are pulling back from marriage and dating, but they're still having casual hookups and they're still kind of engaging in in casual relationships. But we're even seeing those rates come down, teen pregnancies down. Again, almost anything that you look at suggests that people are pulling back. And and tied into the question you asked, one of the number one things we see when we ask people why is fear. Um and I'll add one more thing to that, because another thing we found from that study when we asked them specifically about, well, what are you scared of? Is it a fear of divorce? And that was there for some people. Um, but for a lot of singles now in their 20s, a lot of young adults, a lot of teenagers, what they're telling us now is it's not just a fear of divorce, a fear of making the right or wrong choice with marriage. Um, the number one fear that they were talking about where they lacked confidence and had anxiety was simply starting a relationship. They didn't feel like they had the skills to go on a first date, ask someone out, and start a relationship. Um, even that now is a very scary proposition for a lot of singles in their 20s.

SPEAKER_03 12:26

Does it do you feel like it uh I don't want to dear derail us too much, but it feels like backing up in a bit in a few years. I have a son in high school, for example, yeah, uh, Brian. So yeah, the teenagers and the dating scene, and they just thank goodness they still do, you know, dances, these these dances, because it it's like the only time that they ever go on go on dates, it feels like, are these and even at the dances, Brian, they have they play like one slow slogan song or two slow songs, right? It's just this big dance party and they get all hot and sweaty and stuff. It's just a very different experience than when than when I grew up. Um dating, dating others and actually taking going to them and and taking to going to dinner or doing something. Now it just feels like groups and just a lot of fun, but not a whole lot of dating. Do you do you are you seeing that trend in teenagers or is it is it just us?

Texting and Digital Communication

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Yeah, yeah. In fact, when we've tracked dating behavior in high school, um, that's been one of the biggest things that's moved in the last 10 or 15 years, is the percent of high school seniors that say that they've gone on a date is is a very small percent now. You know, it used to be 80, 90 percent. In fact, I for one of my classes uh a year or two ago, I went back and I found a research study from the 50s where they had polled um high schoolers um in high school and asked about dating behavior. And I think I'm not gonna remember the exact numbers, uh, but I think the average 98% of high school seniors in that study had gone on dates multiple times. Um, I think the average high school senior reported that they had gone on something like 150 to 200 dates in the last year. Um, and now we're getting about 70, 80% of high school seniors that say that they've haven't gone on a single date their entire high school experience. You know, outside of, like you said, maybe some formal dances that most of them don't really consider a date. It's more of a fun kind of social, social gathering. Um, and that is key to this process that we're talking about because, and this is actually one of the big things I have to talk to parents and grandparents about to help them understand where they can help their kids and their grandkids, is there used to be this assumption that because you were dating and figuring things out in middle school and high school, that that's where you kind of got your awkward dating phase out of the way. You figured out how to break up with someone or someone rejected you or how to have your awkward first kiss. Um, now most people don't get those. And so now they're getting into their 20s. They're all of a sudden launching into more serious dating for a lot of them, but most of them have very little dating skills because they didn't naturally learn them like previous generations because everyone kind of just went through this normative process of awkward dating in middle school and high school. They don't have that. And so now all of a sudden they're they're left in this vacuum in their 20s and even in their 30s, where I never really got the skills. We don't have, we can go on another tangent about relationship and dating education. We don't really have it for most people. I don't know where to learn this. And now I'm just expected to jump on a dating app or go up to someone and ask them on a date and know what to do on a first date. And no one's ever taught me how to do this. Um, and like I said, that's a that's a really important message now for parents to understand is that your kids need dating skill education. And and you, as a parent and grandparent, are one of the only places that they can get it. I there's lots of great resources out there. Um, but they need help. And most parents are like, why do you need help? Like it's not that hard. You just go ask someone, you go on a date, you get to know each other. Um, but but have to understand that in the rising generation, that's a new skill set that they've never really had to do before in their life.

SPEAKER_03 15:57

Because it's so easy to text, probably. I mean, one of the reasons, but they can communicate right here instead of actually face-to-face with a person.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, there's digital communications uh that are very limited communication. It teaches you some communication skills, but not how to read nonverbal cues, not how to read tone with someone. Um, it's a whole nother set of skills that fewer and fewer people have now.

SPEAKER_03 16:22

And it's safe. Uh much more safe to do this than in front of a person, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 16:28

We'll be right back after this brief message.

SPEAKER_05 16:40

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

The bachelor and bachelor, they don't teach us too much about dating, do they?

SPEAKER_01 16:48

I know. Yeah, there's there's some research that suggests that one of the worst things you can do for dating is to watch reality dating television. Um, I share with my students sometimes when we talk about norms and we talk about scripts and talk about unrealistic expectations. Um, I have a slide and I say, you know, what do you think researchers have identified as like maybe the worst possible thing you could do in terms of creating unrealistic expectations? And I throw up the bachelor and the bachelorette, and there's been some fascinating research that uh suggests that the most common thing you're learning in those shows is that kissing and hot tubs are the two most important things. Kissing and hot tubs. Because those are the two things that are shown the most, including then also some uh problematic gender uh expectations. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

We are in trouble a little bit, aren't we?

unknown 17:36

Yeah.

Divorce Rates

SPEAKER_00 17:36

Trouble and river city, my friends. So when Brian, Brian, when people ask you what is a divorce rate, what do you say then, please, today? What's the divorce rate?

SPEAKER_01 17:43

I I'm always really hesitant to give a number. Um I usually start with that 50-50 number because people have heard that, you know, in in the in the in the uh pop culture, cultural uh um area, somewhere along the line, someone said that to them. Uh but I I always help people understand that that one, um, the risk of divorce is is just a number. Um, it is based on a lot of demographic background factors that if you're aware of them, don't have to have that much impact on you. Um and and two, it really, really varies. I mean, like one of the biggest things that that really impacts the divorce uh probability of a couple is education. Um, are one or both of you college educated? Um, you're talking something that can swing that average number 20, 30%, just based on um if we're college educated, you add religious attendance on top of that, and it changes another 10 or 15%. Um, and so for a lot of people, you know, I teach a lot of college students um, obviously, that that are fairly religious. And so a lot of students that come to me, young adults, that are concerned about their divorce and their likelihood of divorce, you know, one of the first things I'll help them understand is, well, you know, as is a college-educated religious young adult, you know, your average divorce rate is probably already down closer to 10, 15% already. And then if you take that and add some positive skills on top of that, interpersonal skills and and relationship virtue skills and other things, um, you know, you're you're talking about a divorce risk that you don't have to worry about anymore. And this usually how I want to answer that question is to empower the person and say, when we talk about the risk of divorce, we're talking about everyone except you because you have agency to decide what your own divorce risk is based on what you bring into the relationship. And sometimes I always share with them, I like to share with them too, that when it comes to divorce risk, a lot of these things, um, I have most of them. My my parents were divorced multiple times. Um, you know, I I have a lot of those, those core divorce risks, but my wife and I have been married for almost 25 years. We have a great marriage. Don't feel like it's going south anytime soon. Um, and so I I do think that agentive part of relationships is something that's really important for singles and people in relationships. Uh, because that's the core thing the research tells us is that it's much more about what you do than some intangible broad risk that you're bringing into the relationship.

On-Demand Relationships

SPEAKER_00 20:11

That brings such hope to the picture, Brian. Thank you for that. We've also heard you use the term on-demand relationships. Describe what you mean by that, please.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Yeah, so this is getting into another, another area of our culture that's really influenced dating uh from their first date to committed relationships to marriage, uh, which is we live in an on-demand culture, uh, particularly young adults now in their 20s. They grew up in a world where everything was on demand. You know, I can remember just even back to TV shows and movies, you know, back in the day where you had to program some reminder if you wanted to watch a TV show. And I can remember, oh, it was so great when we had TiVo and you could actually record a show and you go back and watch it. Um, but but young adults in their 20s now, they grew up in a world of Netflix and YouTube where any show or movie that they wanted to watch, they could watch it right now. Any music that they wanted, they could get it right now. Any food that I want, I can order through Uber Eats or DoorDash, and it's brought to me. Everything is brought to me. So everything is on demand when I want it, how I want it. It's a customizable world. And where that's really influenced relationships, when we talk about this concept of on-demand relationships, one of the other barriers for a lot of singles now is they want their romantic relationships to be the same as every other part of their life. Meaning I want it to be completely customizable. I don't want to have to deal with anything that I don't like or is less than uh ideal in my world. Um, and and this is really key when it comes to relationships, I don't want to have to put a lot of effort or energy into it. Because I'm not used to having to do that in so many other parts of my life, especially the parts of my life that are supposed to bring me happiness or entertainment. I don't want to have to put much. Into it. And so they bring that into relationships. And it's one of the reasons why we think we see so many singles struggling with the dating process and with the transition to marriage, is because those relationships naturally require sacrifice and effort. And that's hard for a lot of a lot of young adults. I want to go find someone that it's simple, it's easy. When I talk to a lot of people in their 20s now and they tell me about their ideal partner if they're single, a lot of times they'll say, well, I just want someone where it's easy, where we don't have to worry about stuff, that when we're together, it's just relaxing. It doesn't create stress. And the reality is that's not what a lot of long-term healthy relationships are based on. And so that's hard for them.

Alarm Bells

SPEAKER_00 22:46

It ain't easy. That is so true. So would you would you say then, Brian, that AI is a part of this on-demand dynamic? What are you seeing that's setting off the alarm bells?

Liz's Takeaway

SPEAKER_01 22:55

Uh yeah, the this dude, and we're going to get into the doom and gloom stuff pretty quick here with the with the AI. So I've spent a lot of my time in the last year and a half studying AI, uh, particularly when it comes to AI companions and chatbots, um, that we we we hear more and more in the news, uh, but really trying to understand its place in modern relationships and dating. Um, I did a study about a year and a half ago with the basic question of just how how prevalent is this? Is this something that's starting to come up? Is it something we need to start to pay attention to? And the big headline from that study is that we were already finding about one in three um young adults, one in four, one in three young adults were already regularly starting to engage with an AI girlfriend or boyfriend.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Oh, that's high. Those are high numbers.

Dave's Takeaway

SPEAKER_01 23:42

Really high. Um, uh unfortunately, if you think that was high, we just did another study um last year, and we're working on a report that actually should hopefully come out in the next couple months, uh, where we we just focused on young adults, so 18 to 30 year olds, because that's really where we're seeing this behavior kind of take off. Uh, the number was already up to about four out of 10. So about 40, 50 percent um just in in about a year. Um we're seeing about 50% of young adults that are in committed relationships are also talking to an AI romantic companion on the side. Um, and and I think there's a couple of reasons why that's becoming so popular so fast. And part of it is this ease that we're talking about, that that the appeal of an AI romantic companion is it is completely customizable. I don't have to to to sacrifice anything. And it's effortless. It's a completely one-sided relationship. Um, and we think that's why we're seeing it even actually more popular in people in a relationship than singles. Uh, the rates are high for both. But when I'm in a relationship and I'm going through the normal conflicts and hardships of a dating relationship, rather than have to deal with that, I just have an AI companion that I can vent to that always takes my side. It tells me that I'm right, it makes me feel better, and then I don't have to deal with my relationship conflict anymore.

unknown 25:06

Wow.

In Your Own Image

SPEAKER_03 25:07

Man, that blows me away because it's it's programmed to kind of tell you what you want to hear, right? Or at least kind of yeah, give you that boost and those feelings. Is that what you're finding? Is that it's comforting?

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Exactly. These these these AI companions, and then there's a lot of different platforms and programs out there. One of the things that we were asking about in our last study was what what are the platforms people are using the most? And and they're the most common ones. They're ChatGPT, um, their character AI, their Gronk, their Gemini, you know, these these platforms that aren't necessarily specifically programmed to be romantic companions, but most have the capability to do it. Um, and they are large language models, which if if you if you understand the programming, they're predictive text models. They're completely programmed and designed to tell you what it thinks it wants you want to hear from it. And so if I start to talk in a romantic way and start to train you and say, I want you to be my romantic companion or or my emotional companion or my sexual companion, uh, it 100%, Dave, it will just tell me what it thinks I want to hear. And and so the relationship, the you know, air quotes relationship, uh, is a completely one-sided one. And then that feeds into how many people already want relationships to be today. I don't want to have to put in effort, I don't want it to be stressful, I just want to get what I want out of it. Uh, AI companions provide that, which is why they're becoming very popular very quickly, uh, which is concerning for those of us that are studying it, because on the other side, we're also starting to see um very quick indications of addictive and compulsive use becoming a problem for a lot of people, links to depression and mental health problems. Um, so we're seeing a lot of the negative things that we kind of expected, but then because it's becoming such a popular thing so quickly that so many of our young adults are starting to experiment with, without a lot of good information or or or education about the pitfalls of that, um, we've got a lot of people like myself that are pretty concerned about it.

Advice about Ai Relationships

SPEAKER_03 27:08

Mm-hmm. You could raise a uh you know a warning, you know, even like a one to two minute what's your message, I guess. Not not a maybe a doom and gloom, but maybe kind of a red flag or a warning with with this trend. And you have a message, you know, you can you can share with listeners right now, to parents or to those who are experimenting, or maybe I'm going down that with the AI campaign. What would it be? What would you say? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Well, I I think first and foremost is it's so important to understand that it's happening. Um, and and it's happening for a lot of people. It's it's not quite on our radar yet. But like I said, we're already talking about close to 50% of our young adult population is not just experimenting, but regularly engaging with some sort of AI chatbot. Um, so we just need to start talking about it. That's that's first and foremost. But I think in terms of why it matters and why we should be concerned, goes back to what I shared a little bit earlier that you two are well aware of. That if my end goal in life is happiness and health, that's most of us are would be okay with that. You know, when we get into our 60s, 70s, and 80s, if I'm happy and healthy, that's where I want to be. The research suggests your best pathway through that is family and marriage. Um, you know, money helps a little bit, job satisfaction helps a little bit, but the research still says that a strong, committed marriage is one of the strongest predictors of that happiness and health. And then we know that, well, what makes that type of marriage, what allows me to have that long-term committed marriage? A lot of the research then says that that comes down to commitment and sacrifice. My willingness to, as I, as I try to explain commitment to my students, reject other people, even if I'd be happier with them sometimes. That's what true commitment is. It's my rejection of all alternatives to stay with you and to build something with you, and then to build a relationship that's built on mutual sacrifice. That's so you avoid all the abuse stuff, that we're willing to sacrifice for each other. There's something innately human that I think creates long-term joy and happiness and health in our life when we're in that reciprocal, sacrificial, building and bonding relationship with another person that should be, again, if we all want to be happy and healthy later on in life, um, what we're working towards in our teens and 20s and 30s. Um, and so when I come back to AI, my message for people is that AI provides the sugar high of a relationship. It's it's kind of the candy. It gives you the short-term emotional, maybe, you know, for some people we know for a lot of men, uh sexual connection. Um, but it's short term. We are already seeing some links, like I said, to depression and loneliness. The people that engage with AI regularly are actually more depressed and more lonely. Even if it feels like I'm I'm making a connection, it's not. It feels hollow. People deep down, I think, will understand that these AI relationships are hollow and one-sided. And so even if it makes me feel good in the moment, it's not going to lead to the long-term happiness and success that most of us want in life. So I think it's helping people think long term, not just think in the next month, but think five, 10, 20 years down the line, which is really hard when you're in your 20s, especially now in today's culture. Um, but I think that's the core message we have to help people understand.

SPEAKER_03 30:37

Yeah, it's this deception. You it's not the real thing, right? The real thing is is worth it and takes effort. I I often tell students, I talk to them about the law of least effort and the law of little things. And yeah, you're you're naturally going to want to drift the least effort, you know, in anything in life, with food, exercise, or or anything, but wow, yeah, as you get caught in that drift, man, it can really take you down a place that you really don't want to go. Ultimately, yeah, happy and healthy, it won't it won't lead there. Yeah, it leads to something else. Wow. Man, super uh insightful. Thanks, Brian.

SPEAKER_04 31:13

We'll be right back after this brief message.

The Marriage Paradox

SPEAKER_03 31:26

And we're back. Let's dive right in. Now, switching topics a little bit, you're the author of the marriage paradox. That title is for a great reason, right? What's the paradoxical ways that young adults are thinking about marriage that concern you as a researcher in this field?

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Yeah, so that that book title came about because we were we were noticing something with young adults that's still very relevant today, um, which is most people, when you ask, we've already even kind of talked about this, when you ask people, what are your life goals? You know, do you want a family one day? Do you want marriage someday? The vast majority of people, you know, teenagers and people in their 20s and 30s that are single, the vast majority, you know, we're talking 80, 90% still say yes. Like at some point, I'd love to get married and I'd love to find someone. That still is a core goal for most people. Um, but as we've talked about, the marriage rate has been coming down over the last 20, 30 years, dating rates are coming down. And so that's the paradox that we talked, I talked about in that book, that people still say marriage is really important, but they're doing less and less things. Their behavior doesn't match. So that they're living this kind of paradox of I'm saying this is really important to me, but all my decisions in life tell me that, tell other people that it's not, that it's not really a high priority. Um, and so that that paradox is is one of the big things that kind of helps us conceptualize what's happening um in the dating world. And and for me, one of the things that is is concerning about that is is like I said, what it suggests is that people generally still value relationships in marriage, but there's so many competing priorities in people's lives right now that the relative importance of marriage and family, that's really what's what's been on the decline. Um, you know, we hear all the time for people in their 20s, like, yeah, I'd love to get married someday, but I need to finish my education. I need to get my foot in the door with my career and my job. I want to travel, I want to have fun. Um, the the way I've summarized this, and some of my colleagues use this term uh as well, that I really like, is more and more young adults now view dating now, and particularly marriage, as a transition of loss. It's something that takes away from my life. Uh for a lot of people, it might be personal freedom, financial costs, career trajectory, loss. Um, that's something that we we've heard a lot over the last couple of decades for young adults that that marriage and dating is something that will take away from my life rather than add it to my life. Um, what's interesting about this paradox is we we do think we're seeing a little bit of a shift in the last just five years. Uh, where all of a sudden we are now seeing a growing proportion of people in their 20s that are starting to say again, you know what? I'm not sure if I really want that career-minded, individual-minded life anymore. I think part of that is the economy, is it's just the job market in your in the 20s for most people. Uh, post-college has gotten really, really bad. Uh, and inflation has been really bad the last five years. Um, I think more and more people are like, you know what, maybe career isn't the only thing in my life that's going to make me happy because I'm having a hard time finding one of those. And so they're coming back naturally, I think, based on our natural need for human connection to relationships. So we're seeing a growing portion of young adults now saying, I do want a marriage now. I do want a connection now. Um, but that's back cycling back to what we talked about earlier, where the fear comes in is so you have kind of two groups, I think in young, two big groups of young adults. You still have that group that is in that clear marriage paradox. I want it someday, just not right now. I'm going to keep pushing it farther, farther out in life. You've got this other group that's starting to build that says, maybe I do want this now in life. Maybe I do want to prioritize marriage and relationships, but they're still struggling with the skill set and the confidence to actually move forward. So it's actually creating kind of a different paradox of I want this thing really bad, but I'm I'm so paralyzed by the fears and the concerns and anxieties of it that I can't move forward.

SPEAKER_03 35:36

Yeah.

How Can Parents Help?

SPEAKER_01 35:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 35:38

And Brian, I have to ask, where are our parents responsible or partly responsible? You know, I imagine that there's many parents who have got, you know, kids, young kids, teenagers and things are kind of headed in this direction and they're thinking, man, you know, what can I do to help my kids right now, whether it's the dating, the AI, all this distractions and you know, advice, tips for parents that who are listening?

SPEAKER_01 36:00

Yeah. Um, I think three big things. Uh one, one we already talked about a little bit, which is teaching kids skills uh and modeling skills. And I'm not saying that you need to start your own little marriage dating education class in your home, although I think that'd be great. Um, but but just thinking about how do I model um good relationship skills to my kids. Am I talking at least a little bit to them about healthy communication skills and conflict resolution skills? Have I shared insights and stories with them about how me and my spouse have resolved conflicts? Do they see us resolve conflicts? I think being more intentional about those things that we didn't have to be as intentional about in previous generations is kind of uh tip one. Um, tip two is monitoring. Parental monitoring has always been important, but is so vital in today's technological world, especially as we talk about teenagers. Um, you know, again, whether we're talking about social media or pornography or AI or something as simple. I have to talk to parents all the time and help them understand, you know, do you know that your your child can go to Walmart and buy a burner phone for 75 bucks and get around every filter you've put on their phone and you can't track that purchase? Most parents are completely unaware that their kids can go buy a phone from Walmart. Um, that's a smartphone now. It's not a flip phone, it's a smartphone. It can connect to Wi-Fi, it can get them access to anything. Um parents need to be very, very vigilant. And part of that monitoring is having open conversations with your kids about their use of AI, about their use of pornography, about their use of online technologies, about their views of dating, um, their dating behavior. You just you can't get by with being a passive parent in today's world. Kids have too much access to technology, to information. You really have to be on top of things and how they change. I mean, AI is a great example. Most parents kind of just assume that, oh, ChatGPT, Gemini is just this fun thing kids use and they play around with it and they make fun videos. And I'm a little concerned about how they're using it in their English class or their history class, but that's about as far as most parents have concerns. Um, not realizing that their kids can be talking to these platforms as if they're real people. A lot of middle schoolers and high schools um struggle with their perceived reality that this isn't a real person. And that's where we get these big, really sad headlines about kids that took advice from one of these um AI platforms too seriously. So you need to be talking to your kids. I think that's that's number two. Do a lot of monitoring behavior. Um and then I think three is messaging about the importance of relationships. Um, I think sometimes parents get so concerned about their children's career and financial success that they they inadvertently send a lot of messaging that relationships in family, in marriage don't matter or might just get in the way of these other things. I talk to students all the time and other young adults who very clearly feel like they've gotten a message from their parents of do not date, do not get married. I will be mad at you if you are actively dating someone. And sometimes I don't think parents are intending to send those messages, but kids are reading between the lines and saying, well, you're sending so much concern and anxiety about my rent and my finances and my education and my career and my jobs, um, that I'm getting this message implicitly that you really would get upset if I was spending money on a dating app or marriage or, you know, navigating my life with another person. Um, I think that's a really key thing for parents to hear. And then I think what they need to do, this is my biased opinion. Um, kids need to hear positive messages about marriage. Um, they need to not just hear messages about how it's hard, about regrets that maybe you had in your life, even if your marriage didn't work out. Um, they need to hear positive messages about the benefits that working with another person in family life can bring to a person's life because they don't hear those messages very much. Um, part of that is because those messages are boring. So they don't make it on their social media reads or reels. They don't make it into the dating reality television, they don't make it into movies and TV shows because they're not dramatic, right? We we like drama in those areas, which means that they're gonna get a lot of other things about breakups and marriages that don't work and divorce and celebrity couples that are breaking up and divorcing, that's the messaging they're getting. So parents need to do a little bit of counter-programming to help kids feel positive just about dating and marriage in general.

Navigating Modern Dating

SPEAKER_00 40:46

Great advice. Oh, I love that. What about for those who are dating? Do you have like one, if you had to choose one tip um to give for them to implement into this process to make it more successful and even boost their confidence, Brian? What would it be?

SPEAKER_01 41:02

I I think my one thing um is is one. I'm gonna say I'm gonna cheat. I'm gonna say two things. And in part of this, I've got two young adults myself navigating uh the dating, is keep going. I I that's the number one thing I have to tell people that are dating is is keep going. Keep trying, even if you've been rejected a hundred times, even if you've gone on 200 first dates that haven't gone anywhere, keep going. And and tie to that, so these are two things, but they're connected, is continue to build what I would call your dating resiliency, which is first acknowledging that dating is hard. It is hard to go on first date after first date, to be on the dating app for months and months and months and have no success. It is hard. Acknowledge that it's hard, acknowledge that it's frustrating, you know, beat up your pillow, complain to your friends, complain to your mom. That's okay, it's normal. It doesn't make you a bad person. Um, but then keep moving forward. That's what resiliency is. You go through hard things and you learn and grow. Uh, even if you're on a first date and 30 minutes into that first date, you're like, I know I will never want to be around this person for the rest of my life, then spend the next hour and a half, two hours with that person, learning how to communicate with someone you don't like. How do I make them feel good? How do I make them feel validated? Always have a mindset when you're dating of how am I learning, how am I growing, how am I becoming that person. So when I find that person, I this is the way I frame it to some people. Make sure that when you are finding the person you want to be with for the rest of your life, they want you back. And you can do that in every negative hard experience that you're having in dating.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

That is brilliant because nothing's wasted, right? It gives us an opportunity for practice and to make somebody else's life better because we have this interaction. Um, I think that's just great advice. Thank you so much for that.

SPEAKER_04 42:58

We'll be right back after this brief message.

SPEAKER_05 43:11

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_03 43:15

Um Ryan, you know, it would be a disservice to not mention your concerns about pornography viewing among young adults and how it can harm relationships and connections and dating that we've been talking about. How problematic is pornography viewing today and what damage is it causing?

SPEAKER_01 43:31

Yeah. Um, well, it is concerning um to me. It's something I also spent a lot of time studying in the research that I've done. Um, and and pornography, like the AI stuff we've talked about, uh, is first off concerning because it's very prevalent. We're talking about a behavior that the vast majority of now teenagers engage in, the vast majority of adults are engaging in on a regular basis. And there's really two big concerns. Um, one of the concerns that does get a fair amount of discussion is the Addictive compulsive component of pornography. That is important to mention that pornography can lead to compulsive behavior, that can lead to a lot of mental health problems for people that are struggling with that. So it's important, I think, to acknowledge that's that is one concern. Having said that, I always have to be really clear with people that that's not most people that use pornography. Our best estimates in the clinical literature is about 10 to 15% of pornography users have a compulsive kind of addictive behavioral pattern. So it is concerning for them. The potential to go there and lead to that type of compulsion is a concern when it comes to pornography, particularly with kids and teenagers. But the other major concern that hits most people is more about the expectations that pornography creates. We've got really consistent research now that shows that pornography use is linked to less stable relationships, less satisfying relationships, less sexual satisfaction relationships. And the main mechanism for that is that pornography depicts a version of intimacy that simply doesn't replicate in real life. And once I engage with pornography on a regular basis, it's really hard to shake those expectations when I'm with a real person. Pornography, the way I describe it, often depicts non-normative looking people engaging in non-normative sexual acts in a non-normative context. There's not a lot of realistic stuff happening when it comes to pornography. And so when I bring that into my relationship, even couples that try to use pornography together as part of their intimacy, we still see the same negative effects because that media consumption affects how I view my partner. It affects how I view my relationship and it builds dissatisfaction because I'm not able to replicate this fictional world of pornography. And even people that say, well, I understand that and I'm immune. You know, this is the fun thing about media research. Everyone thinks they're immune. And yet commercials still exist. Because what we know is even if you think you're immune to media consumption and the effect on your brain, most of us are not. It still has an influence. And so both of those things, combined with how popular pornography is, leads to a lot of concerns and a lot of my personal suggestion of to just avoid it. It is a risk factor. We don't see any positive benefits that really come from pornography use for most people. We just see these risks.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

Well said. Thank you.

Brian's Resources

SPEAKER_00 46:23

You're so wise, Dr. Brian Willoughby. Where can our friends here on Stronger Marriage Connection find out more about you, your good work, and even your book, The Marriage Paradox?

SPEAKER_01 46:32

Yeah, you can find my books on Amazon. If you search me, uh The Marriage Paradox and then uh the Millennial Marriage is the other.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

Millennial Marriage is the other. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 46:41

Which is uh just looking at what marriage is like for millennials and still showing some of the positive benefits for young couples in the latest generation. Um, you can go to the School of Family Life websites and get a list of the research that I'm doing now. And the other place you can find me is at the Wheatley Institute, uh, which is housed at BYU, uh, which is also where I publish a lot of my uh research on AI and pornography and some of those things.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

Very good. We'll be sure and add those resources resources to our um segment here today for easy finding.

SPEAKER_03 47:12

Yes, we will. Hey, Brian, as we wrap up our conversation today, we like to ask all of our guests a couple of questions. The first one in honor of the name of our podcast, Stronger Marriage Connection, what do you feel like is a a key to a stronger marriage connection today?

SPEAKER_01 47:26

Yeah. Um I think for me, if I were to narrow it down to one thing, I I would say it's focusing on on the happiness and growth of my partner. And that's a scary thing for a lot of people because they'll say, Well, what about me? You know, what what what if I'm giving everything to my partner? And I said, Well, that's that's the key though to a successful marriage is that both partners are doing what I just said. If both partners are focused on their partner and not themselves, then someone is gonna watch out for you. And it doesn't have to be you, it should be your partner. Um, and those are are the magical marriages, the the ones where I can trust my partner to have my best interests, so I can spend my time focusing on them, they can spend their time focusing on me, and that's where that really special magical bond can form in a marriage.

Brian's Takeaway

SPEAKER_03 48:16

Love it, love it. And as we wrap up, we call it a takeaway or the day. Is there a take-home message? We've covered a lot of ground, a lot of territory here today. Brian, appreciate your time. What's a take-home message you hope our listeners will remember from?

SPEAKER_01 48:30

I I think the take-home is that as we started, we talked about how dating is hard, but it's it's harder. I think it's okay to say that dating is much, much harder than it ever has been in previous generations. And to acknowledge the frustration and the anger and the stress that comes from it. Um, I think we we all as parents um need to give our young adults a little bit of space to express those frustrations and to acknowledge that it's harder. It's gonna be harder finding a spouse now. It's gonna be harder finding dates now than it's ever been. And so I think if we understand that, we can give them a little bit of space, a little bit of grace of, you know, why are you not getting a date every weekend? Why have you not been in a relationship? Um, acknowledge that it's harder and then find ways that we can be supportive in this culture that's making it hard.

SPEAKER_03 49:19

Very good. Yeah, thanks. Liz, what about you? What's your takeaway today?

SPEAKER_00 49:23

I am touched by the the hope and the power of marriage. Just that as you have some similarities, both college educated, embrace the same religion. Let's say that the points of divorce are going further down. I think that's just so hopeful for us. Dave, what about you? What's the gem you're going to take home, my friend?

SPEAKER_03 49:44

Yeah, there's been so much that's been um helpful, I think, and and I think for our listeners as well. I think one of the messages is this intentional, right? This whether it's the AI stuff, it's just so it's just easy and everything's been easy, but kind of this on-demand, you know, principle that you you've talked about is really um yeah, spoken to me. So I think that that anything in life worth um anything is is it's gonna take effort. It's going to take intentional um effort and planning and growing uh your marriage or your relationship instead of going to that easy route, which may be comfortable in the moment, but it's really just that cotton candy. Yeah, it feels feels good right now, but yeah, it's really empty, emptiness in the end. So Brian, so uh grateful. Thank you so much for making time to come on and for the great research you're doing. Keep it up, and yeah, we'd love to have you uh on the show again sometime. Yeah, thank you. It's been great to be here. All right, friends, that does it for us. We'll see you next time on another episode of Stronger Marriage Connection.

SPEAKER_00 50:45

And remember, friends, it's the small and simple things that create a stronger marriage connection. See you soon.

SPEAKER_03 50:54

Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us a favor and take a second to subscribe to our podcast and the Utah Marriage Commission YouTube channel at Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the show. Be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment, and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at StrongerMarriageLive and Facebook at Stronger Marriage. So be sure to share with us which topics you love and which guests we should have on the show next. If you want even more resources to improve your marriage or relationship connection, visit strongermarriage.org, where you'll find free workshops, e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys, and each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, Rex Polanis, and the team at Utah State University, and you, our audience. You make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions, and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.