Why Embracing Vulnerability Is Key To Rebuilding Trust | Josh Otani | 183

We sit down with therapist Josh O’Tani to talk about pornography use as a couples issue and why secrecy can wound a relationship as deeply as infidelity. We map the shame and anger cycle that keeps partners stuck, then share practical ways to rebuild trust through curiosity, empathy, and consistent repair. 

• Reframing pornography use as relational and systemic, not just individual behavior 
• Pornography as a coping strategy for difficult emotions and how avoidance spills into marriage 
• The negative interaction cycle after betrayal, including shame, fixing, withdrawal, anger, and distrust 
• Why empty promises fail and how trust rebuilds through time and consistency 
• Why secrecy matters more than the content for many couples 
• Confessing early versus being discovered and the impact on safety and vulnerability 
• Betrayal trauma responses, including volatility and PTSD-like symptoms 
• Simple language shifts that validate pain without defensiveness 
• Clarifying values and agreeing on goals, abstinence versus negotiated boundaries 
• Tools from emotionally focused therapy, enactments, and impact versus intent 
• The mindset shift that you don’t have to heal alone, and why professional help accelerates progress 
• Where to find Josh and his resources at Big Valley Therapy 

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_04 0:03

On today's episode, Liz and I chat with therapist Josh O'Tani, and he opens up about the challenges of pornography and why it's a couple issue, not a personal problem. He talks about the power of understanding, getting curious, and tips for each partner in this struggle. Josh Otani is a licensed marriage and family therapist and founder of Big Valley Therapy located in Sanity, Utah, where he helps individuals and couples appeal from pornography addiction, betrayal trauma, infidelity, and relationship distress. Using approaches like emotionally focused therapy, internal family systems, and EMDR, he focuses on breaking negative cycles, rebuilding trust and strengthening emotional connection. Drawing on both professional expertise and personal recovery experience, Josh brings authenticity and empathy to his work and also creates educational content to support lasting healing growth and healthier relationships. We hope you enjoy the show. He's actually a graduate from Utah State University's marriage family therapy program. So yeah, alum, yeah, go Aggies, who works with couples facing pornography use, betrayal trauma, and the road back to trust and connection. Josh, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Thanks, Dr. Shram. Uh, thanks, Dr. Hale, for having me. It's it's a really an honor to be able to be speaking on your podcast and also be kind of returning

Why Pornography Impacts The Whole Couple

SPEAKER_01 2:10

as a USU uh alum on the therapy program.

SPEAKER_04 2:15

Yeah, for sure, Josh. Excited to have you on today. Let's start with a big picture. So when couples are dealing with pornography use, betrayal, it's often framed as one person's issue. You know, one person is struggling with this, one person was uh you know cheated or whatever that is. But you approach it differently as a couple's issue. Help us understand first kind of the big framework of why that's that matters right from the beginning to have the couple together with all this.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Well, I love that question. Um so kind of where my mind goes with this is just um first, you know, as a disclaimer, you know, I imagine people who are listening to this podcast want to be able to strengthen their relationships, strengthen their connections. And typically what I see, you know, when clients come into my office are clients who view um one's pornography use as um it can be perceived as cheating. Um typically there's you know a lot of shame or um years of secrecy or lying when it comes to this kind of behavior. Um and so that's that's generally the approach that I kind of see when um clients are coming in. And and and the typical story is this, you know, because I love examples, but you know, I I do have a lot of clients that kind of come in, and you know, typically it's one partner um that essentially is there, and you know, I'm obviously there to under there to understand their story. And and typically they'll be like, well, my partner really wanted me to come in first before anything else, before we even, you know, approach the topic of couples therapy, um, of any of that. Their partner's like, you need to figure out your stuff first before I'm even involved in this picture, right? And it kind of makes sense, like when we think about it, if you're thinking about what's pornography used, depending on how long they've been um uh engaged in that kind of behavior. Um, it could have been, you know, since early childhood or their young adult years, long before they even got married. Um, or if they're just um in a non-marital relationship, uh, long before they're in the relationship. And so typically, you know, that that kind of you know what I see. And you know, that it makes sense logically that like, okay, yeah, this is this person's. I mean, you think about other kind of behaviors like smoking or gambling, like, you know, it's the partner really thinks about it, it's not my issue. I don't I don't struggle with smoking, I don't struggle with, you know, the gambling behavior, but it's it's my partner and they're the one that needs to really kind of figure it out, right? And so, yeah, pragmatically kind of looking at that way, um, that's that tends to be the story when I start to whether it be meeting with individuals, um, but the but other times it is the couple that comes in. And and so why this is important um to, you know, in my lens of um, you know, systemic thinking, a lot of my training um in marriage and family therapy has been grounded in a lot of systemic work, making sure that we're understanding the relational effects of one's behavior on the relationship. And very quickly, you know, if I'm working with an individual who has come in where the prior has been wanting them to come in, it tends to turn relationally very quick. That becomes probably 70% to 80% of what we end up talking about. How is your behavior um feeding into this relationship? Um, you know, and and just to kind of give you a little bit of a background, you know, how I kind of perceive the whole um uh behaviors of pornography use is I I do see it as um a coping skill, a coping skill, what it what whether it be you know stemming from early on in childhood, um trying to born first out of curiosity, but then it became a way to avoid um difficult emotions, you know, boredom, loneliness, you know, the the the the really the pain, you know, the meat of you know what we all experiences as humans. And so when I think about you know that that kind of usage, right? People turning to core news to to want to kind of numb out from difficulties in their lives, whether that be feelings of rejection or abandonment, um, it tends to be the case that those behaviors then seep into the relationship, right? Because if I'm turning, for example, to uh view pornography to want to avoid perhaps um difficult, vulnerable conversations with my partner, well, that's highly relational. And it's just understanding that that behavior is what drives a wedge between the relationship and can be very difficult for partners to really truly learn that extra layer of vulnerability when it comes to connecting with the partner. And so, very, very quickly, you know, right off the get-go, you know, to kind of answer your question, that's why I view this relation, this issue as relational and highly systemic and not just affecting um the individual.

SPEAKER_04 7:30

Yeah, that that spillover. I mean, absolutely, yeah. It's

The Shame Hurt Withdrawal Cycle

SPEAKER_04 7:35

both of them, their relationship for sure.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

And building on that then, Josh, what what tends to happen emotionally for both partners after a betrayal like this? Where what are each of them experiencing, and how do those reactions start to create a cycle between them?

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Mm-hmm. So great question. And, you know, this is where I spend the bulk of um, you know, the whether it be the individual therapy or the couple's work, is being able to understand some of these negative interaction cycles that go on, right? And this in this interchange, this interplay with two partners. Um, if we're taking it from the standpoint of the partner um who is um viewing pornography either before or presently, um it's it's understanding kind of what's going on in their internal world. And I'll start with them because I think the explanation leads into then how it affects the partner. Typically for them, um, you know, I work with, you know, I worked with many couples where this kind of behavior has been kept in secret for so many years. And this kind of behavior um being held in secret, obviously there's going to be a feeling of feeling terrible. Like I feel terrible that this is coming out and now it's starting to affect, um, visibly affect my partner, right? They're withdrawing, they're becoming visibly upset and uh um angry at me, and um, I just feel so terrible, right? Because ultimately, if you're thinking about it with this behavior being you know sustained for so many years prior to the relationship and and feeding into the relationship, there is a sense of I've kind of taken, I I'm the problem, right? A lot of a lot of partners will start to believe that they are the terrible person, that they're the villain in the story. And ultimately, what happens with that is what do we want to do when we've caused a problem? We're gonna want to fix it. And so many, I see many of my clients kind of turning and feeding into that fix it mentality of what can I do to um uh alleviate this pain that you're feeling right away, right? And I think that's just natural for us as humans. When we see that we've hurt um our partner, we want to be able to fix it. And for many people, that is the worst fear. Hurting or doing things that will hurt your partner, the one who's closest to you, the one who you know loves you the most, where that safety resides. Many people's worst fear is hurting your partner. And so I do see you know many, many people in this position um starting to want to fix it through reassuring their partner. I promise I won't do this again. I promise I will never turn back to my old ways. And but but what we know you know very soon, looking on the other side, is a lot of those promises uh are perceived as empty promises. You've said that before. If you said that before and you keep on doing the same behavior, how can I then truly trust you? Because we know that trust is built over time, over consistency. And if you're consistently telling me that you're going to be ending this behavior, yet you're returning to it, and many times in secret, how can I truly know that what you're telling me is the truth? And so this it kind of adds and flows between both partners, that is one common theme that I do see when we're talking about this interchange between both, you know, the betrayer and the betrayed defender, the injured partner is understanding that dynamic. What what what I also tend to see is, you know, in this this interchange is this idea of, you know, if I've caused such pulling and hurt on my partner, I'm wanting to give them their space. I'm wanting to um make sure that I'm not pressuring you because I understand that healing takes time. And so I'm gonna kind of take more of a backseat approach. And you could probably already guess how may the partner be feeling in return. You're avoiding me. You are turning back to your own ways. You are not, you you are never, you are now um, you're you're never um being emotionally vulnerable with me. And many partners, you know, we we do see a long history even before um perhaps this um first disclosure or them finding out this long history of that lack of that emotional vulnerability, right? Because we're if we're kind of returning to that whole idea about pornography, you just many um people who indulge in that kind of behavior and have kept it secret, um, tend to have a hard time being vulnerable with those emotions, right? That's the reasons why they they turned to that in the first place. And so they'll give space, they will, you know, want to um, you know, make sure that they aren't um, you know, poking the bear, so to speak, and they'll really, you know, just try to have time, be able to be the thing that heals the relationship. Um another thing, uh common theme I see is um this idea of, and this is kind of related to that shame I was talking about, but it is um this idea that they're making progress in their own recovery, but when their partner, when it's perceived that their partner is not viewing that that progress, they are gonna start to kind of dip into a lot of that shame, a lot of that failure mentality. And I do see tend to see a lot of black and white thinking of, oh, you're not seeing my progress, you're not seeing that I'm trying to connect with you, I'm a complete failure, this isn't working, you know. Um, you know, we're we're um we're uh it feels like we're just at square one, right? And so I do see a lot of partners kind of falling back into that, saying, Oh, I'm such the failure, I'm such the problem. And and really that prevents, you know, we we we can see that prevents a lot of that connection because then it becomes more about um the the betrayers are in pain and and lack of self-confidence rather than being able to turn to the partner. And I'll get back, I'll get a little bit more into that, what healthy um interactions look like, how can we kind of dig ourselves out of these holes? Um, and then the other, and then the last thing with that is I thought I told you everything. Many times uh the betrayed partner is gonna want to say, you know, as they're healing, as they're rebuilding the sense of trust, really kind of getting a sense of, I feel like I've just been traumatized and now I'm needing to kind of you know figure out who are you? I I I I feel like I know two different versions of you. And if we've been married for 25 years, I I feel like my whole world is exploded, right? And so in their process of wanting to kind of heal from a lot of that that pain, a lot of that confusion, um, a lot of that grief, right? This sadness that kind of is evoked with these two versions of of this partner. Many times, the the betrayer will say, Well, I thought I told you everything, I thought we got past this, I thought we fixed what needed to be fixed. Why are you bringing it up again? Which we know can seem very invalidating. And so that that that's typically, you know, the interchange I see. And just behind a lot of this is a lot of fear, a lot of shame, a lot of hurt, a lot of um really not wanting to um make the issue

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SPEAKER_01 15:15

worse.

(Cont.) The Shame Hurt Withdrawal Cycle

SPEAKER_03 15:18

We'll be right back after this brief minute.

Fear Beneath Defensiveness And Blame

SPEAKER_05 15:31

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_04 15:35

Yeah, thanks, Josh. That's helpful. Talking about some of these these patterns, right? Blame and defensiveness, and right this, and you withdrawal and this back and forth. And you mentioned just now, I want you to elaborate a little bit from your perspective, you know, underneath this, those, those reactions, and you talked about uh fear. Uh what some of those others, what's underlying some of these these patterns?

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Well, yeah, well, we'll take that first one. So fear, right? And and typically what what clients will tell me is, you know, I just have a fear of making things worse. I have a fear that if I truly like express myself um and really kind of try to open up, my partner's just gonna hammer me down, right? And and it's actually gonna make things worse. And so I tend to see that as a lot of the the idea of this withdrawing, a lot of partners will end up kind of withdrawing and and trying to take a backseat approach because ultimately it's like it's this idea of I'm not intentionally trying to withdraw, but I don't know what to do. It's like this feeling of hopelessness that partners are experiencing of like, I and and for most people, right? I think just in our world today, um, we're taught to be problem solvers, right? And whether it become to work, relationships, whatever it may be. Um, but for this one particular issue with with betrayal trauma work, a lot of the work is counterintuitive, right? It being able to kind of hammer down and address and and and and try to fix things right away, um, you know, and in in in in a greater sense, many people would say, yeah, like that that makes sense. Like you want to kind of work on the issue if you see an issue, right? Like if you go to the doctor, right? And you have like a book like, well, we gotta put, you know, um we gotta study, you know, we gotta make sure that you know there's a cast, that there's X amount of healing and all these things, and and and that that healing process is a little bit more laid out for training trauma work, it is, it can feel like we're going two steps forward, three steps back, you know, four steps forward, five steps back. And it's just kind of this, and I think frankly, you know, a lot of a lot of clients that I see just get very fatigued and can get very discouraged because really, on one end, when you're thinking about more of you know their social ecosystem, really this issue when it comes to you know their their porn use, betrayal trauma work, um, it is typically held within just a relationship. It's not something you just would casually talk to, you know, your kids about or you know, um, you know, family and friends, right? Um, and so really when it when it comes to working on this very complex issue, many times people kind of hold bring it on themselves to say, I gotta be the one to fix it, yet I'm really just lacking all the tools. And so in that fear and that sense of insecurity or like uncertainty, not really knowing how to kind of proceed, I can see uh you know a lot of that blame, a lot of that defensiveness. What we kind of see on more on the surface level, kind of um, I mean, that's that's typically what I see when it when it comes to um couples therapy um partners that it's like this ping-pong match back and forth between them of I don't feel like what I say is gonna make any like sort of like it's not gonna resonate with you. And they'll say that to their partner and they'll say, Well, if you don't bring it up at all, then I get the sense that you're withdrawing. And then they're saying, Well, I am I'm not trying to make things worse. Like, I'm I'm just like I don't want to intentionally make you upset. And so, you know, you could probably see, you know, if if you're it to to give you a snapshot of my work, that tends to um be a lot of of what we talk about is identifying those cycles. What are the underlying parts that are being activated on both ends? Right. And and and this was, and I'm just gonna continue to build off this. That's typically where I will start um to introduce this idea of being able to sit with your partner, being able to understand their impact before defending your attention, before kind of jumping to defend yourself, um, and and really kind of structuring it that way, which I'll I'll kind of share more about.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Well, here's a question for you. Maybe I should have asked it

Why Pornography Feels Like Betrayal

SPEAKER_00 20:05

earlier, Josh. But why why is pornography viewing so damaging to a marriage? And is it less damaging if both parties are involved? You know, that used that used to actually be a common um what um suggestion from marriage therapists. It's like, well, view it together.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Yes, yes. So where I stand on this issue, you know, I I guess just to give you an idea of like my clientele, I see I see couples who view it both ways. Um, some who view it kind of more healthy, some who view it more negatively. Um, some who view it kind of more as this positive, you know, um, you know, psychoeducation to be able to amplify and enhance their sex life, and ones who view it as more damaging, depending on their morals, their values, religious stance, family of origin. Um and what I tend to see is um at least couples that come to me on either end is this whole idea about secrecy. Uh, when this behavior is kept hidden from their partner, that tends to be become a wedge in the relationship and starts to become more, I would say, damaging to the relationship when that behavior is killed in secret. And to lace in the idea of, you know, someone viewing someone else in a sexual way, whether that be considered must or you know, for sexual gratification or pleasure, that tends to, for many people, be perceived as a betrayal, a sense of cheating, of, well, maybe it's not so much like I really care about you um, you know, uh, you know, viewing pornography more so you didn't tell me. Why didn't you tell me? And and so that that's that's typically what what I tend to see. Now I do know that there is research out there, um, you know, through doing my whole master's thesis and just throughout. my clinical training that that promotes both ends. Some say it it may be a positive thing for the relationship, something that connects and provides extra, you know um extra information and you know um being able to amplify their their and enhance their sex life. But the I guess my clientele for primarily is is founded in couples who who view it either as cheating or you know due to the secrecy components or what this, what, or what my partner viewing pornography may say about my own body image, right? And and my own sense of self-worth and whether or not I'm um giving like if I'm satisfying my partner in that way, a lot of that kind of turn uh makes people kind of turn inwards and start to question am I if they're turning in secrecy to this behavior, whether or not I see pornography as good or bad, I start to get a little bit insecure because um I start to question like am I satisfying my partner? Am I am I enough for them? And so that that's typically what what I see and you know the vast majority of my clients come in for and um what I what I focus on. So do you find a difference between the couples where um the one party who's who's viewing pornography, they come clean, let's say with their partner versus their partner comes across it and finds out is there a difference in their healing and their abilities to work through this does it matter yes yes I would say that there is a drastic um difference between the both um in one hand if they're coming clean to their partner you know let's say like even before getting the relationship being able to say hey um use has been a part of my life and you know regardless of their values or you know religious orientation or whatnot or family fortune if they've kind of come clean telling them the nature of you know some of their their issue or not not even if they even frame it as an issue but saying this is a part of my life, right? That tends to invoke a sense of vulnerability of closeness even with the the the partner. Because who wants to be lied to in a relationship especially when this partner is in in a committed relationship someone that you know you're you're you you'd hope that you'd be um that they'd feel safe enough to share everything with you. And so that is that that is a you know very very important you know distinction those primers who tend to come come up front and even if they do kind of differ on their views of pornography or maybe even similar they're then able to discuss about how this may fit or not fit in a relationship how they look

Confessing Versus Getting Caught

SPEAKER_01 24:45

like right as compared to um you didn't tell me for 25 years and why were you keeping it a secret. I so admire that that tends to be indicative of the quality of the relationship in my opinion just based off the levels of emotional vulnerability their ability to have crucial conversations um in a relationship.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

I so admire the individual who can say you need to understand this about me.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

I want you to know this right a lot of self right a lot of self um uh acceptance and awareness to say hey like this is who I am and and and ultimately you know that that's my goal as as a therapist is helping people operate more within their true authentic self one that can be truly honest of saying hey um this is just who I am and um for for many partners that I see able to do that that tends to be more healing and connecting in a relationship.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Yeah right so Josh when trust is completely broken and the partner is crushed right it feels like from their standpoint from what I understand from couples and and um women often who are in this situation um healing can feel impossible. How can someone begin to heal um while even staying in the relationship?

SPEAKER_01 26:07

I don't do most of the couples work through this does it ever end in divorce do you find so so one of the first things that you know I I say when it comes to couples work is um I can't guarantee any relational outcome when it comes to staying together or deciding to divorce or separate. But what I do tell them is that and this is kind of my token of hope is that if both of you are invested in this process, if both of you are um taking this introspective look and really trying to understand how your internal parts show up in the relationship, how they have shown up the relationship and how perhaps we can better that right how how you could be um become more buller bull, more you know emotionally in tune with your partner, learn how to have effective policies, learn how to empathize we're going to be working on all these little like this toolkit if you will um the chances of your relationship working well are far greater than you know if you hadn't embarked on this relationship at all. And so you know when it comes to that that process of you know them them coming to heal, you're essentially asking like how how how is that right? How can a partner whose trust has been shattered right just kind of like a glass vase or something like that when it's shattered and it can't be and it can't the the there there's no simple solutions there. How do we how do we approach that? One of the first things that I'll I'll kind of under um say here is that if we're comparing it to that glass that has been just broken. I'm understanding that now there's these two versions of my partner where I thought there's just one the whole time but now there's two or even three I am like their initial parts are saying I'm scared like I don't know this person. I'm confused. And I'm trying to kind of piece all these parts that they're telling me together and you know just to know you know as as as as one kind of thinks back on a lot of their history with their partner when you when you start to have some of that information of they've been lying to me in so many areas that starts to kind of fill in the gaps right of understanding oh they spent more time at work than they needed to right they were perhaps more emotionally absent or maybe that's why they couldn't you know emotionally um be vulnerable or connect with me in this certain area of our life or um and or maybe it is like an a an erectile dysfunction issue right

When Trust Shatters What Healing Takes

SPEAKER_01 28:55

that there are a whole host of um reasons that someone can kind of grasp onto to kind of fill in the gaps of in of that history. And so all to say that process um is complex um to to to say the least it's complex because it it's almost as if a lot of their history as they're kind of recounting what has happened to them is almost like in this process of pending or downloading this new script, right? This new version of essentially what their life has been like. And for many that can be very very challenging a lot I see I do see a lot of clients saying hey like I can't do this. Like I want to separate like you like it it's irreparable the relationship just based off what I know about you now. Right? And some some partners will go that way but some partners who are willing to stick it out and and and and I'm not saying this in a way that either or is weaker I think everyone is you know um everyone uh has a right to make their own decisions and um and sometimes you know the stronger healthier um decision is to separate but other times and this is kind of you know why I do the work that I do is to be able to try to um salvage and repair and strengthen um the relationship a big part of this um this idea is coming to the acceptance that my life with you how I perceive you is not going to be the same as before it's not going to be the same right because now you know about these two or three other parts of you that I didn't know before and and now I do and and and and so the ones that are able to really work past that, that's something that we work on first and foremost. It's understanding the the the entirety of this other person the entirety of of of the your your their partner in terms of their their their past history how they've lacked in perhaps that emotional regulation when we talk about you know early childhood wounds and a lot of clients I do see here in this realm have had years and years of a lot of self-doubt a lot of insecurity they almost kind of use the hard use to kind of mask that and so it's just kind of understanding that their partner right the one who's inflicted the pain is certainly going to have to work on a lot of self-identity issues a lot of being able to understand why did they do the things that they did first and foremost and for them to understand that and also for to be able to answer to their partner. And I do see that process just as this very delicate path that they're both going to be embarking on this the the the the this um the this path of help me understand just a little bit more about what you had meant by that. Help me understand a little bit um more about those times where you didn't feel comfortable talking to me. Right?

SPEAKER_04 32:04

And and and little by little we're able to kind of um build build off to that but I would say that acceptance piece of the reality met with that sense of self-compassion um for themselves we'll be right back after this brief minute and we're back let's dive right in Josh I'm curious what advice do you have for um the one who's who's struggling the one you know the the supporting spouse or partner as far as simple things that they can um do or say and even things that man that is not helpful if you know for example a wife might say if I ever caught you you know doing that again I would leave leave you and all of a sudden the guy's going to be like I have to either not do this or I have to really bury this because if she does find out does that make sense or are there some helpful tips for both spouses simple things

Simple Do Say Tips For Both

SPEAKER_04 33:10

our listeners can remember you know if if they're going through this right now what do you what do you recommend?

SPEAKER_01 33:17

So um when it comes to the burner you know with with the porn use um one of the first things is understanding their own self-identity and how that relates to their behaviors. For many who have sustained this behavior for many years um at least the the profile client client profile I'm looking at um they they tend to have a lot of so self low self-esteem um feelings of being the problem seeing things as black and white either I'm a failure or I'm a success and um really for them what it what it comes down to is really being able to address those that underlying shame and being able to heal from that to know that I can accept myself as a whole person. I can accept myself for my mistakes for my flaws for my weaknesses for my emotional regulation deficiencies and I can work on it with little by little each day. I can control what I can control throughout that process. That first and foremost I see as as as perhaps as higher up on the priority list for that partner. Because the idea of it is if they aren't able to show up for their partner in even within the betrayal trauma realm if if they're too I guess caught up in a lot of that shame cycle and they're they're really just spiraling that way of oh now my partner is telling me that they have concern I'm a I'm a complete failure. I got to fix this I can't fix this you know and essentially I don't know what to do we have to help that partner to feel more empowered to say hey hey what they're telling you right now even if they're coming off a bit angry or irritable is they're trying to communicate to you a specific need. Right? It's that bid for connection of hey I'm in pain right now. I'm feeling completely devastated and I'm needing you to see me in this a lot of the work that I do is being able to kind of almost um help encode and decipher what their partner is truly telling them when they're saying even the nastiest words of you know it's your default why did you do this to me? You know you never show up for me all those things right really trying to help soften those approaches to be able to help understand what your partner is really telling you is they're needing you to to work on that empathy. A lot of times I'll see your partners in the betrayed world saying I need you to feel my pain. I need you to understand the pain that I'm feeling and for many partners that's like well that's impossible. I I've never been cheated on I've never been you know in that scene and so I don't know and I help them to understand that that's not truly what they're asking. What they're truly asking is I'm feeling completely alone and I'm needing you to be with me right now. And we really help to I I really help to um encode those messages so that the partner you know in in the betrayer role is able to understand okay that I I don't really have a whole ton of experience with that but I'm gonna give it a shot because it's worth it. Right? And I just help on to them to understand hey this is not a direct attack to you this is how they're communicating how they're feeling right and slowly but surely as as the partners able to kind of understand that okay I got this I'm having little successes to be able to connect with them little by little as I'm working on my own self-image and just understanding that that I am worth it that I am trying that I do make mistakes and that's okay or the self-acceptance they're able to start to practice those skills of vulnerability and um you know and and so to to kind of touch on just some of the no no words right I mean yeah definitely um definitely we can see in this cycle it can be very easy to kind of turn back to the shame cycle of well it's just all my fault I can never do anything right you know no matter what I say you're not gonna believe me so why should I even say anything we really have to help that partner to get out of that self-defeated realm and um and more more than more than that we want to help them to feel empowered to say hey you got this you have what it takes you experience emotions just like we do and it's worth taking the risk it's worth taking that shot to be able to do this. Sure. On more of the betrayed end you know that there there tends to be more of that emotional volatility and that's totally natural just understanding the nature of betrayal trauma that shock fact right many many a lot of research will kind of allude to this this work as you know it's like there's PTSD like symptoms that now your partner's experiencing. And so that will kind of ebb and flow and this different energy that I kind of see as couples as partners kind of come in. And it could be uh one day seeming more calm the other day seeming a little bit more charged and that's okay. And I just let them know in those moments that hey uh the assumptions you're making the accusations you're making like like this is all bad like there's hurt and pain underneath this and it's for them to and and and my role for them is is gently to be able to kind of redirect what they're saying to be able to give them different language to be able to express what they're experiencing. Because many times yes it is confusion it's I don't even want to look at you like I don't I've just had this memory kind of pop into my mind and I really have a distaste for it. I don't want to think about that right now and and so I I I really help to kind of guide that conversation and and ultimately not from only me but have the partner right and these enactments helping them to be able to turn towards them asking them these questions more from using their own voice.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

Is the goal is

Clarifying Values And The End Goal

SPEAKER_00 39:40

the goal to end the pornography viewing is that goal is this is that the goal between your couples is to stop the behavior that's causing the pain or is it to make peace with it? I'm so curious.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

So I think I think it's twofold right it's this idea that as a clinician as a therapist I really um I I my goal is to help empower clients to be more aligned with their values. So if those values do say pornock porn is bad porn is something to be abstained from and both partners are I mean even on a differing levels we help to kind of clarify the meaning of porn in the relationship what that either could look like or what that um should not look like. But I do it from a place of we have to understand the whys behind this rather than just kind of blindly following one way or the other. And so when it comes to yeah whether it'd be eliminating porn use for some that that is strongly the case but for others um it kind of be more loose and it's more about you being more emotionally available not just living on the surface level conversation realm with me but I really want you to kind of step in I want to be emotionally checked in with I want you I want to know that you know you've got my back and more so than just kind of be trying to reassure me I want you to tell me and so a lot of this process is helping that partner to really take initiative and being able to roach those conversations being able to um bring out a lot of these sensitive issues not only with the betrayal trauma work but just day-to-day life right what has sustained that behavior for so many years and so um yeah if that answers your question yeah the goal of itself depends on clients values and what is going to work for their relationship. As you help couples work through this, how do you help them move, Josh, from place of pain and disconnection towards emotional safety again so I kind of mentioned this mention this briefly but the the terminology of enactments is is something from emotionally focused therapy and that's one of the main interventions if you will that I I I draw strongly from and a big part of that how I kind of weave that in another therapeutic modality I use is internal family systems working with parts and just understanding that these two parts that are being activated right now, what stories are they telling right now? What are their underlying needs that are kind of going on and as we kind of kind of go bounce back and forth in these enactments essentially enactment is being able to facilitate I'm the facilitator as the therapist helping in session right in real time partners being able to ask more empathetic curious questions um and then being able to reflect that back to them. Now uh something I also kind of had mentioned um before is this idea of impact versus intent. My goal is to be able to have partners um first be able to before

EFT Enactments And Impact Over Intent

SPEAKER_01 42:55

expressing my concerns hear my partner out and what they're saying. So an example of this could be like um if it seems like their partner is very upset and angry right with them um I may I may have the the the other partner turn to and make eye contact with with their partner and say hey I noticed that uh I noticed that uh you you you seem to be like more closed off today um I I'm wanting to understand more about what you're experiencing right now right and and it's just like this this gentle turning towards um approach that before right they wouldn't engage in but we're essentially creating different ways of connecting having them kind of draw upon those skills so when they're at home they'll be able to do the same things without my assistance is the goal. And and for some that could Take um um a lot longer, but but generally the the idea is yeah, turning towards them, asking more of these inviting, curious questions, um not fixing it, but just trying to understand, and for the sake of understanding. Um and you know, my it's my core belief that you know understanding breeds healing in this realm. That whole idea about understanding the the truths, the reality of the situation, to understand that as we're embarking on this journey, um, just understanding that our emotional connection scores very poor. Even if we've been married for 25 years, it's been very poor. And there has to be an acknowledgement of that. What does that look like? What has sustained that for that all and from that reality, then we're able to meet that with these actual steps about how can we move that forward, how can we be able to build off of that. One of the things um with this whole idea of acceptance is that it's accepting that the relationship that you've entered today in therapy that essentially you're not gonna be in the same relationship that you have been all these years. Your relationship's gonna be much different. Right? It's gonna be a lot stronger than it has been before. Being able to learn how to truly, not only through say through through thinking about it but or desiring it, but truly learning through experience how to be able to better show up for your partner, how to be able to ask about the things that truly matter to them. And when it comes to betrayal trauma work, yeah, being able to pinpoint and ask specific questions of hey, um, the other day you had mentioned um this component of of how painful it's up for you. Um would you like to talk about it right now? I'm wanting to know more about what you had said there. Right? Yeah, it's just the energy is gonna look a lot different, right? As they're kind of having these softer approaches. It's not only the words we say, it's how we say it. Right, it's our body language, it's the consistency. All these are little ingredients for the recipe that makes this whole process um effective and possible, frankly. Right? I think many people in our world today kind of see betrayal trauma as um kind of like the period or just like the end. Like, okay, broke my trust and then and this is over. And and so I I really come from a place of um let let's let's shed some more um let's let's widen the gap of healing in this realm. That there's that that there is more that healing is possible even when it seems so desperate, even when it seems um so despairing. There is still room that we can um learn more about each other, learn more about ourselves, and be able to show up and and hold in our whole weights with each other.

SPEAKER_03 47:07

We'll be right back after this brief message.

SPEAKER_05 47:19

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

For anyone listening right now who feels stuck or even hopeless, what's the one mindset shift? First step you'd encourage them to take, just in brief, begin to begin healing together. What's the very first step? Because there's a lot of anger, right? There's a lot of anger from the betrayed person.

SPEAKER_01 47:43

Um so I guess something when it comes to you know, just like a principle as they're kind of starting down and they're feeling a lot of that hopelessness, they're feeling a lot of that anger, a lot of that reactiveness. It's just understanding that um there are ways that we could be working on that healing process together. This is highly relational when it comes to being able to work on these issues, and so if it seems as though it'd be better off, you know, where you just have one partner kind of start versus both of you together. What I'd encourage is both partners be able to come in because a lot of these issues um are um are highly ri rely on on that relationship connection. And so just understanding that um you don't need to heal alone, you know, and so and and and so just understanding that yes, healing needs to be uh systemic, it has to be relational when it when it comes to if our can't if our partner had cancer, we'd be there, right?

SPEAKER_00 48:48

We'd be there in the room listening, figuring out what are we gonna do differently. I I like that very much. We talked a bit about the app. Anything you'd like to add, and maybe please tell our listeners, Josh, where they can find out more about you and the wonderful resources you have, please.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

Yes, yes. So um beginning of March, I I did open up my own solo practice, uh, Big Valley Therapy in Sandy.

The First Mindset Shift Toward Hope

SPEAKER_01 49:10

Um I have a website, it's just bigvalytherapy.com with all my resources. Um get a hold of me that way. I also have a psychology today profile as well as some social media like Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, um, that you um I I post regularly on. Um and um yeah, more than anything, I'd love to hear more from your audience as it pertains to any questions, things that I may have not touched on um in this duration of time. Uh I love hearing from uh you know listeners you know on my own social media feeds to be able to um be able to kind of craft content or answer questions that people may have. And so um that's how you can find me.

SPEAKER_04 49:51

Awesome. Yeah, we'll put those in the show notes for our listeners. Josh, before we let you go, a couple questions we ask all of our listeners. The first one, what do you feel like is the uh key to a stronger marriage connection?

SPEAKER_01 50:04

Uh stronger marriage connection. Well, I I I think I did say the one-liner, understanding breeds healing. And that and that really is you know the motto that I kind of go um throughout um my own life, my personal life with my relationship with my wife, but also uh what I what I will continue to teach um my clients is that understanding breeds healing. Um it's my understanding that when we can more fully understand uh just the reality, understanding um our past experiences, how they inform the present, uh, that really we can develop more self-compassion as we gain more of that curiosity, more of that clarity. We're able to kind of cultivate more of that safety within the relationship. And that that all stems from this wanting and this desire and taking those actional steps to be able to develop that understanding in relationships.

SPEAKER_04 50:58

Well said. What about your takeaway of the day? Is there a take-home message you hope our listeners will remember from our discussion today?

SPEAKER_01 51:05

Uh just takeaways that that healing is possible for those that feel like this process, whether that be something you you whether that be a friend or family member you know who has gone through this process, or you yourself um have gone through this process, my message and and key takeaways that that healing is possible and that hope can be found as we um were to understand and and more than anything, in many cases, receive professional

Josh’s Resources And Where To Find Him

SPEAKER_01 51:35

help as it pertains to this issue because a lot of the nuances that I kind of mentioned um on this podcast, um, while they're great, um, it is a different experience to be able to experience it um in session with your partner sitting across from you and talking about these things. There's nothing greater and more strengtheny um than that and having those difficult conversations and broaching those difficult, vulnerable um conversations. Yeah. Liz, what about you? What's your takeaway of the day with Josh?

SPEAKER_00 52:05

I love Josh that you were going towards on the other side of that, right? Where you are stronger together, stronger individually. I mean, there really is nothing better than to be known completely and fully and to have your partner that you betrayed turn to you and say, gosh, I love you. I love you, Sam. And Sam's gonna go, yeah, and nobody knows me better. And I am so blessed that you know me and you still choose me. I don't think it gets much better than that. There is something that I've seen couples be so proud of when they get to the other side of betrayal, whether that be pornography viewing, that they both agree against or against, um, or infidelity itself. To get to the other side and to say, I still, I unconditionally love you. I know you best, accept you, and still love you. Dave, what about you? What stands out most to you from our conversation today?

Key Takeaways And Final Encouragement

SPEAKER_04 52:55

Uh, you know, trust trust and commitment are the foundation of relationships. And when that is rocked, and then there's genuine hurt. So for those listening, it is raw, it is real, you feel like your whole world is turned upside down. That is all normal to feel those feelings. But I want to echo what you asked, Liz are saying that there is professional help, finding the right resources, there's a road to healing, it's not an instant fix, but it's a uh recovery, it's a process uh but it that often requires outside assistance because I I don't know how to fix my car. You know, I just don't know the answers. Then I take it to a mechanic, I take it to someone who specializes in that. So if you're not sure what to do, please turn to the resources and they're available all around you. More resources today than ever ever before. So, Josh, thank you so much, my friend, for coming on and sharing some wisdom and help our listeners today. Sure appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 53:50

Well, thank you so much for the opportunity to come speak. And I hope this resonates with someone um getting said anything and being able to kind of get you the resources that that you're so much needing and deserve.

SPEAKER_04 54:02

Yeah. Yeah, thank you so much. All right, friends, that does it for us. We'll see you next time on another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 54:11

And remember, it's the small and simple things that create a stronger marriage connection. Go take good care of you and each other now. See you soon.

SPEAKER_04 54:22

Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do

Subscribe Share And More Marriage Tools

SPEAKER_04 54:25

us a favor and take a second to subscribe to our podcast and the Utah Marriage Commission YouTube channel at Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the show. Be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment, and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at StrongerMarriageWife and Facebook at StrongerMarriage. So be sure to share with us which topics you love, which guests we should have on the show next. If you want even more resources to improve your marriage or relationship connection, visit strongermarriage.org where you'll find free workshops, e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys, and more. Each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, Rex Pilas, and the team at Utah State University, and you, our audience, you make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions, and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.