Why Trying To Be Perfect Can Ruin Your Relationship | Andrea Dindinger | 184

We sit down with marriage and family therapist Andrea Dindinger to name the repeat fight loops that hijack connection and to practice simple ways to interrupt them before they turn mean. We walk away with concrete tools for calmer conflict, deeper intimacy, and more intentional partnership that ripples into the next generation. 

• naming the “loop” as the problem, not each other 
• spotting triggers and the deeper needs underneath them 
• using “bookmark” to pause conflict and return at a specific time 
• building trust by always coming back to the bookmarked talk 
• leading the moment by listening without taking it personally 
• using a firm “stop” paired with reassurance and safety 
• choosing curiosity before defensiveness as a relationship superpower 
• rethinking intimacy through “sexy logistics” and mental load 
• trying a 21-day experiment of small daily connection practices 
• letting go of perfection and focusing on repair and accountability 
• creating a shared vision and doing an annual relationship review 

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The opinions, findings, conclusions, and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.

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Transcript

Welcome And Why Patterns Matter

SPEAKER_06 0:03

On today's episode, Liz and I welcome therapist Andrea Dindinger to the show, and we talk about all kinds of helpful tips from loop breakers and halting the cycle with stop to what she calls sexy logistics. Andrea Dindinger is a licensed marriage and family therapist with over 20 years of experience helping couples break unhealthy patterns and build stronger, more connected relationships. Known for her warm, no-nonsense approach, Andrea blends clinical expertise with real-life experience to help couples stop repeating the past and start creating the kind of love they actually want. We hope you enjoy the show.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection. I'm psychologist Dr. Liz Hale, along with the beloved professor, Dr. Dave Schramm. And together we have dedicated our life's work to bringing you the best we have in valid marital research, along with a few tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. You know, Dave, we often say in this field of marriage therapy that it's not the people that are broken, it's their patterns that are broken. And some of these patterns are even inherited, believe it or not. Well, for over 20 years, today's guest licensed marriage and family therapist, Andrea Dendinger, has specialized in helping people stop spreading the cycles they modeled in childhood and start creating conscious, connected relationships. Something we're all about here on Stronger Wearage Connection. They do this for themselves and even for the generations to follow. Because they're affected, right? It just continues on, it ripples on. Well, welcome to Stronger Wearage Connection, Andrea. Thank you so much. I appreciate being here. Oh, we love having you. You openly share that when you were a young teen, I mean, I always loved the background, right? And why we got into this film, my friend. And and you share some of the um uh I just gotta start that again. Thank you so much. Andrea, you openly share that when you were a young teen watching your parents' marriage fall apart crushingly. So that had a huge impact

Andrea’s Story And Why Love Matters

SPEAKER_01 2:20

on you. And they announced to you that they were splitting up on Christmas Eve. Ouch. From that moment on, you were determined, weren't you, to understand love. And I'd love to know, we'd both love to know where has we'd all love to know where has this journey taken you.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Yeah, that uh I mean, that changed Christmas Christmas forever, right? Just that that, you know, they didn't do it on purpose, but you know, none of us do it on purpose. Um, but from that moment on, I think I read every book my little 14-year-old hands could get and you know, get a hold of. And um, you know, real I didn't study psychology in college, but I was I was always interested in relationship, the relationship people had with themselves, with each other. Um then I went went ahead and got buried at the early age of 25. That may not be early for some people, but it was it was too early for me. Um and, you know, I fell in love. My ex-husband and I, we loved each other, but there wasn't the um, I think our attachment styles were really misaligned in the end. Um and we ended up getting divorced, which was heartbreaking. Um in fact, it was even more heartbreaking than going through my parents. I think there was the sense of failure that accompanied it was was profound, unlike anything I'd ever experienced. Um and then I didn't know what I was gonna do with my life. And I had been teaching yoga, I'd been selling advertising, and then all of a sudden I'd been sitting and meditating for like 16 days straight in silence. And it was like, I don't know whether it was God or a lightning bolt, but it was like go back to grad, go to grad school, become a therapist, help, help other couples so they don't have to go through these things.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Who who better to do that, right? Than someone who has gone through that on some level. Yeah. I always love to hear about a background. There's always an interesting reason how we got into this field, I think. I I love hearing that story. I'm I'm sorry for the sadness, and I love how um Erly made something so beautiful and helping others.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Yeah, and I think I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful for that sadness because it's led me to actually where I am today. And I couldn't be, you know, hap more happily married. I've got two great kids, an excellent dog. You know, I just those painful things um do contribute to our maturity.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

I think so too. Nothing's ever wasted. I had an annulment in my 20s. Uh it was just a short-term marriage and um based on a little bit of fraud. And I still, I don't know, sometimes I feel like, oh, I had to have to go through that. But you're so right. I don't think that anything is ever wasted. Everything teaches us and creates, I think I'm more empathic in the therapy office. I have to brag Dave about Andre's website and some of the great resources she's created for couples. Um, the loop breaker was one of my favorites. And Andrea, this is the greatest compliment because I was listening to you kind of on low volume while my husband was kind of in the background doing some little things here around the art home. And um he he even stop and make comments and just say, Oh, I really like that. It's like that's that's excellent. And he doesn't ever say anything. Andrea, he's read zero marriage books, my husband. You know, it's just not not his thing, and he's a pretty darn

The Couple Loop And Hidden Needs

SPEAKER_01 6:00

good husband to read to begin with. But would you be willing to share a few of your tips for free here with our friends while we have you here on Stronger Marriage Connection? Would that be all right? Do a little TS. Yes, absolutely. That's generous.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

All right, let's start. Um, so you know, it's really short. Or Dave, did you have a question?

SPEAKER_06 6:23

No, no, go ahead. I mean, I'm excited. I want to hear more about these repetitive of loops.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Um you know, every couple has these repetitive fights. Anytime we all have them. They're, you know, and I I like to think of it as we have a dance. We all do our dance, and um, and as once everybody knows that what their dance is. Oh, it's gonna, you're gonna hear, I'm gonna be running late and I and the and the loop is gonna start. I'm going to um forget to put my coffee cup in the dishwasher, the loop is gonna start. I'm gonna have to go to your in my in-laws' house, and the loop is gonna start. Right? We all have it's it's something small that where it usually usually uh kicks it off. And it is um, it's annoying, everybody hates it, um, but it's serving this function to bring couples actually into connection, into relationship with each other, even though everybody hates it and it's quite unpleasant and uncomfortable at all.

SPEAKER_06 7:30

I I'm curious then that because I yeah, it totally makes sense. And I love that uh just put having a name for it, right? It's I don't know, is there a trigger? Is there something underneath that? You know, what what are some of the reasons that these are are occurring? I I guess it's happened once, you know, there was this trigger, and then this happens, and then this happens, and it's like, okay, we get in this loop, and so I I can almost anticipate whether it's a time of day or you know, in the week, or something's happening in my wife's life, or we're going someplace, like you say, in-laws or something that just starts to trigger feelings arise, right? Is that kind of what you're talking about?

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Yes, yes, and it like and you everybody knows it's gonna happen. And what I help couples try and do is figure out like we can't stop, we can't stop the that trigger from happening. And I don't know that we necessarily want to, because ultimately that trigger is trying is saying to your spouse and from your spouse, like, hey, see me. I need to know that you love me, that you see me, that you respect me, that you care about me. And that's, you know, that's the like the reason the loop starts. And so we don't, we don't want to get rid of it. Um we just don't want to go swirling around and again and again have it last for days or even an hour. We want it to like start and go, oh, wait, let's do it differently. And so part of it is just having a conversation with your partner, like, hey, this is what we do. Do you enjoy it? I don't enjoy it. And probably your your husband or wife will be like, I don't like it at all. So then we don't like it, but it's something we're gonna do and we're gonna do it again and again, but let's see if we can do it better. Let's see if we can do it differently. And so that, you know, I'm running late, I've triggered, I've triggered the loop. And so the opportunity is to respond to it from a different, more conscious way. The first thing I want to help people do is just take a moment and and pause the chaos as it's starting to go. And I, in in a couple of my courses, I teach um what I call the trigger pause process, but it's really saying, like, hey, let's bookmark this moment and come back to it at this very specific time and talk about what just happened. So even though

Bookmark The Moment And Return

SPEAKER_00 9:55

I'm late running out the door and you're pissed at me, let's just, hey, can we bookmark this until we get to where we're going and we'll and we'll finish it out there. And what the bookmark when you say that, and I that's my word, that's the husband my husband and I use, but you can use sickle fritz, you could use cheez-its, you could choose coffee cup. Bookmark I find is uh nice because you can do it when you're in front of other people. So it's a little um nondescript. Oh, we want to bookmark this. Um, so you don't have to have it be something weird. But the key to it is before you call bookmark, you have to agree with your spouse when we're gonna call bookmark and why we're gonna call bookmark. And the why is because I love you and you love me. And this process, this practice we've been doing, this looping dynamic doesn't work. And so I call bookmark. When you hear that, you say, Oh, she loves me. And then I say, We're gonna come back to this as soon as we get to our location. So we don't have to drive stress, we don't have to be yelling in the car, kids don't have to be impacted by it. We just, yes, let's bookmark this until we get there. And we get there and it's like, you know, bum me out that you were late again. Like, yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

And it's not it's not really about being late, is it? It's never about the thing. No, it's always the thing underneath.

SPEAKER_06 11:25

Yeah, that relationship, it's it's saying I can I guess it takes yeah, it it takes like recognizing your own emotions first. It's like, okay, I I can feel something, and I don't have to follow that feeling. I can I can pause or or take the bookmark. And I love that you've got to talk about this when you're not in the heat of the moment, you're being like, okay, yeah, we're both chill right now. Let's let's this is gonna happen. And for every couple, are there like common ones, Andrea? I mean, are there these cycles or for every couple? It could be going to my you know in-laws or work party, or it just totally varies, or are there some themes?

SPEAKER_00 12:04

I mean, I think it's there's it's not a theme. Everybody has it. It depends, it doesn't, you know, it could be like you never want to have sex, or you always want to have sex, or you never want to go to a party with me. Um, and one of the things that the loop breaker does is helps you listen for those two words always and never, because as soon as you hear those words, you're not living in this moment. You're not right here, right now. You are in an old story about our past relationship, or probably and more likely, an old story about um what you saw in your parents' marriage or your caregivers' marriages. And so when you listen for that, you know, and both people, both people don't have to do the training, but I love that your husband was kind of interested in that and was like, oh, that's interesting. Um, both people don't have to. It's ideal, but if only if one does it, they can be the leader and show kind of um the pathway forward. But when you're listening for those words, you are never on time. You are always late, which is true. I don't run on time very often. Um, but it's there's something else that's happening there. It's I get stressed, you don't care about me, my parents always ran late, nobody ever paid attention to me. I always had to be available for everybody else, and nobody had to be available for me, right? All of these backstories that are there. And if I shut that down or get defensive, what I'm doing is I'm missing out on an opportunity to understand like my per my partner is a person who has wounds, who needs love, who needs me to stop and pause and make contact with them, reassure them that I see them, and then move it in a different way. And so when you listen to those two words, always and never, you're like, oh, right, right, wait, we're not here right now. And that's when you say, like, oh, sweetheart, can we bookmark this until we get to our location? I love you so much. And, you know, it's still the person who receives the bookmark often says to me, Well, Andrea, that feels like you're telling me just to stuff it, to like don't share my feelings. And that's a great, you know, because it can feel like that when you receive that. But the key to it is having the very specific time that you're gonna come back to that conversation and then coming back to that conversation. That's where the trust and um safety gets built. Because if we get to the destination, we're already running late. And I don't take those two minutes and say, like, hey, I know I was running late. I was trying to squeeze one more thing in and that sucked. And I apologize for that. Right. That's probably all my husband would need to hear. But if I'm like, oh, we're late, we gotta go, then where we're going, those people, that other thing, are more important than he is. And that's never true. So coming back at that specific time.

SPEAKER_06 15:12

Yes, yeah, coming back to that. And ultimately, it feels like, as I'm thinking about this, the bookmark I love it, I haven't heard it called that, is that it's gonna prevent some heartache and some words that you don't mean in a tone you don't like, right? That is it's this train's going really fast, and you're like, okay, we gotta, we've gotta slow down because we know that this never leads anywhere helpful, and it's almost always hurtful. Is that kind of the idea? That's we're gonna get mean here in a minute because we're gonna say and do things, yeah, that are not going to show each other that we love each other. I love that. Hit pumping the brakes, hit take a book work.

unknown 15:50

Good.

SPEAKER_04 15:52

We'll be right back after this brief message.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Okay, my friend, let's say we see the loop coming, right? I can just imagine this huge tidal wave coming at me. Now, what can I do instead of freeze, flight, or fight? What's your top suggestion, please, Andrea?

SPEAKER_00 16:24

So one of the things I love to do is um, you know, each person in a couple needs to decide whether or not they're gonna be the leader. Um, and so as the leader, you're

Lead The Conflict Like An Adult

SPEAKER_00 16:36

saying, like, I'm the adult and I'm gonna be awake and I'm going to choose to hold the discomfort. I'm gonna choose to um move forward and um and just be and just be the adult here, right? It's like your kid is throwing a tantrum and you're like, you know, you need to stop throwing the tantrum, or you just pick the kid up and you walk out of the store, you leave your shopping cart there. You're like, you know, that's not how we behave when we're in a in a grocery store, right? There's no, there's no adding feel to it. It's just like this isn't gonna work. Let's get out of here. Not how we're yeah. Right. And so it's a similar kind of idea in a marriage in that you recognize, like, okay, so here I can see the tsunami getting ready to knock me, knock us over. And so, you know, you could call bookmark. That's one of the first things I try and encourage my couples to do. And the more you do it, the better you get at it, and the more comfortable you feel doing it, and the more comfortable you feel receiving it. But so say that doesn't work. Then it's really important to be able to hear what your partner is saying and not take it personally. As if, you know, as if Dave is talking about my dog and it's not about me, and he's just saying X, Y, and Z. And I'm like listening, like, wow, that's a really, really fascinating story. And I can listen to it and I can listen to their experience if I, if I take myself out of it. If I don't make this all about me, me, me, and I make it about you and what's happening on your side, but that's where that leadership quality has to come in. Where it's not like you're not receiving feedback, but you're also you're not stepping into the whirlwind of it and taking it on personally. And so you're you're having more of this observer. Um, I like to think of it as like a bird's eye view of like what's happening with this couple, even if you're like sitting in the window and you're watching this couple have this conversation. Um, and you're watching, like, how does he say it? How does she say it? How do they respond? What are they missing here? You can do that if you choose to be the leader and pull yourself out of it. Um, and really hear what the just hear how much the other person is suffering. Suffering.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Yeah, and that's so like it's so easy to get defensive and say, I don't, I'm not always late. Often I am late, but not always. It's just so easy to get defensive. Dang it, isn't just a muscle we stretch, right? Muscle we have to grow. The more I do it, the better I get at it. Yeah. Do you think? The other one word you. Oh, go ahead. Pardon me, Andrea.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Well, I was just gonna say, I I I feel protective of, you know, people feeling like I'm being defensive is a bad thing because it is a it's not something we want to encourage, but we also want to understand like the wisdom behind learning how to become defensive, right? It is really your way of um of trying to keep yourself safe. And it's how you kept yourself safe in your family of origin.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

It does make me personally just a little crazy to be accused of something I I didn't do or didn't intend, you know. So I I do love the stuff with suffering is really so helpful. It's like, okay, this is this is my partner's suffering. Not about me. I I love that. The the other one word you brilliantly suggest when we as couples want to halt the cycle is stop. You know, and and I know there's more to stop. You just said a little bit, so my partner doesn't think um that I forgot this new process

Using Stop Without Shutting Down

SPEAKER_01 20:25

we're trying and believe that I'm shutting out, shutting them out. What what else do I do to soften that?

SPEAKER_00 20:32

So sometimes I don't know if you I know you both have experienced this when somebody is so mad, they almost like need something to push up against, right? If like they could do a leg press in that moment, they'd probably feel better because they can physically move that energy out of their bodies. And that's kind of what a stop does. It's like, stop. You're and you say it very firmly and with a lot of like this is and stop, I love you, I am not the enemy. But it's but it you have to have that firmness because people get so caught up in the serotonin and dopamine adrenaline rush that comes with fighting and anger that they're they're like not even there. And so the stop, I love you, I am not the enemy, like it just um it kind of like jolts somebody back to like, oh right. Yeah, if right, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

It isn't jolt. I love that. I remember my husband saying that to me once. It's like, wait a minute, Liz, I'm Lizzie, I'm I'm on your side. And it made me pause. It's like, you are. Where was I where was I off to? I had lost my mind.

SPEAKER_06 21:45

Andrew, I love that you're you teach couples how to to break these destructive patterns, these loops, and build the solid kind of love that they really ultimately that they you yearn for, they really want. So let's ask you a different question. I'm curious. What have you learned from your couples, right? What have they taught you throughout these two plus decades?

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Um, I mean, there's the learning has been incredible for sure for sure. Um, I think there's a couple of things that kind of stand out to me. One is that not all marriages should stay married. Um, that's been

Curiosity Before Defensiveness

SPEAKER_00 22:25

something that's been was really hard for me to learn because of my own pain and um and heartache that I'm like, oh, I don't want people to feel this. Um, but I had, you know, I do think that there is there's some people who actually are gonna do better not being married. And that is something that they I really had to learn. Um, I would always feel every time people would like, I would think of it as give up, I would just be like, but you guys, there's so much here, especially when there's children involved. Um, so that was one of the things because it's it's not true that everybody should stay married. Um if they're not able to do that work, um, and they're just gonna tear each other apart and tear each other apart in front of their kids. It's um, you know, it's better to separate in the best, most kind way you can. Um, but this is a really funny story, Dave. So this was this was a number of years ago. Um, I was a fairly new therapist and I was working with this family whose young daughter was kind of prostituting herself out. They're a really, really wealthy family, and she was a teenager and just really, really promiscuous behavior. Meanwhile, this couple is not having sex at all. Like, they just like haven't had sex. And um, you know, so we're working with all the dynamics that, you know, the daughter is like the identified patient. We have to fix her. Um, but we're in session and with the mom and the dad, and the dad says to me, Andrea, do you want to know how we could um uh create peace in the Middle East, get rid of road rage, um, you know, just stop all of this. And I'm like, yeah, I want to know. And he's like, you know, if every man was guaranteed a blowjob once a week, every Wednesday. And I, it was it was so so blunt and so bold. His wife wanted to die, but there was something when he said that that it was so helpful to hear that here is like there is actually something. This man and these fathers and these men actually really do need to feel loved in this way that, you know, a wife or a woman doesn't necessarily need it in the same way. And so it really made it so clear to me how you know men feel that emotional intimacy after that physical intimacy, and women feel that uh feel physical intimacy once there's that emotional intimacy there. And so really having him lay that out in just such a kind of bold and bratch way, it was um I I really appreciate it. Which again is kind of that strong factor a little bit, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:21

The wake-up call.

SPEAKER_06 25:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

That's I think what made it so powerful. Very, very interesting. Um yeah, I love that. Some some um sex uh coaches or sexual therapists are actually saying these days, Andres, let's start with sex. You know what I mean? Then the emotional follows. Um women are having to kind of think about that a little bit differently. I think I think it's very positive. Um here's an interesting question, my friend. If you had a magic wand and could give couples just one gift, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 25:58

I mean, I would love to give them the gift of curiosity before defensiveness. Like, oh, you know, oh, interesting that you're saying that. Oh, interesting that you think I'm a jerk. Oh, like, huh, why like like like if there was just this fascination and curiosity when anybody, you know, sends something your way and you didn't take it as if it were true or personal or obscene or any of that, just more like, whoa, that's a really interesting thing you're saying. Um, I want to know more. And you didn't do it in this sarcastic way, but in a in a really heartful, like, ah, what's getting triggered in you? I would I think that would be incredible if people were more curious about each other.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Yeah. Get curious, not furious. We often stay here, stronger marriage.

SPEAKER_04 26:55

We'll be right back after this brief message.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_06 27:11

Yep. Andrew, there's a fun term you often refer to in social media, sexy logistics. I love it. Describe what this is, please. And what about sexy logistics? Do you recommend to your couples?

SPEAKER_00 27:24

So, kind of back to that, you know, that dad and his wife. I was like, so, you know, one thing that prohibits women from feeling sexually interested or available is all of the things

Sexy Logistics And The Mental Load

SPEAKER_00 27:38

that are going on in their head, right? The dentist appointments, the joy clinic you have to pick up, the camps you're the dinner, the mom that you have, all of the things you're thinking about. Um and and the husband is also, you know, really thinking about having sex and want and maybe thinking about those things too, but like they're not meeting. And so what sexy logistics is, is both people get in bed. You're not guaranteed to have sex, but it's encouraged. Both people get naked and just lay in bed. And for the man to just listen to the woman download and share every single thing she's thinking about, whether she's gained weight, whether she's um concerned about aging, whether it's that she's worried about their kids. Are they gonna get into college? Are they gonna get into high school? Are they gonna write all of the things? When what are we gonna do when my parents get, you know, how are we gonna do Christmas? What are the like all of the things? And just almost like word vomited out. And the and your husband is sitting there listening to all of the amazing things that are going on in in his wife's head and shocked probably to think how many thoughts are going on. And then able to recognize like how many, how many of those balls that she has in the air that she's juggling that are taking up all of her libidinal energy. And so then he can say, like, oh, well, I can order the um, I can place the rental order for the birthday party, and I can um, and I'll do this, and I'm gonna take a couple of these things off. And so that's a piece of it, but really letting that vessel empty out so that there's room for that um emotional and physical intimacy. He's receiving her emotional intimacy, and then she's receiving his physical intimacy. And it is one of the most powerful, powerful practices for a couple to engage in, especially when they haven't had sex in a while and they're and they and they want to, but it's just not it's just not happening.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Not happening. Not sex and logistics. I like that.

SPEAKER_06 29:50

Yeah, that is. I mean, it's interesting that you say even right before this podcast, I'll I'll just be honest and share. Um, so we have a daughter's getting married here, um, Andrea, in the the next month. And so there's a lot going on, right? A lot of planning and things. And um one of the things that was on my wife's mind is just this we've got to get the invitations out. But we, you know, we have my daughter's file, Excel file, and ours, and then the her fiance's, you know, file. We've got to put all these that so we have all this together. And I just I just said, honey, let me take all that off of your load. And so yeah, this morning I'm yeah, asking Chat GPT to get rid of the duplicates, you know, all this stuff, but it but ultimately it was like, I I don't know, I just sense that she's got a lot. We're in this middle of this kitchen renovation, right? So all this other stuff is happening, and I just give it to me, right? Whether it's the load that I can help get out of the mental worry work that she has going on. So anyway, the timing of that just because it was happening, yeah, about an hour ago was I'm trying to anyway help some of it relieve some of that. But but you're right. I and I think that's an act of love. Yeah, I I hope so. I'm just wanting to help lighten her load because I could see the the stress and the worry on her. So anyway, yeah, I don't think women have that. Yeah, and she actually did. She sent me a text and she's like, ah, thank you so much, honey. Yeah, just one less thing for me to worry about.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

So that's pretty cool. I I mentioned earlier that I purchased the loot breaker on Andrea's um site, and just I'm enjoying that so much, Kenry. I made copies of everything. I just I just think it was um so so insightful. You also have something about the 21-day experiment. Takes three weeks to change it. Is that why it's 21 days?

SPEAKER_00 31:42

It's 21 days because I had originally 21 different homework

The 21-Day Experiment For Connection

SPEAKER_00 31:49

assignments that I like kind of give on a regular. And it it came to be, you know, I was like, I want people to have some of these tools. That was kind of initially kind of where it came from. And then I started like looking at what the different um, what these different practices were about. And, you know, it starts with like first that working with yourself first, right? It's just all about ways that you can kind of open up and soften your heart and just be in connection with you. Um, and there's different things like looking through old photos, um, you know, silently, or you know, you can write it down five things about your spouse that you're grateful for. Like there's little, little things. Um, and then that's the first week. And then the second week is around bringing your partner into the mix a little bit. Like each week deepens in intimacy, emotional intimacy, intimacy, and physical intimacy. And then the final week is really putting some of the practices into play. Um, and it's my husband and I did it because I figured, like, well, if I I have to test it out to see how it works. And we had actually gone through a period for about three months where I've never felt further away, more disconnected from him and him from me. And so I tried to start, I tried to do the 21-day experiment right before Christmas started, like the middle of December. And I was like, nope, I don't have it in me. I just was like, nope, nope, nope. I can't, I can't, like, I can't soften my heart. Like, I don't know whether I I'll look at it next year at this time. But my heart was like, nope, not softening. And so then I'm like, but this is launching, so I need to do this. And so I did, I did our own, my own 21-day experiment. And it was so fascinating to watch what happened when I leaned into the marriage, when I leaned into the relationship and watching like all of the different ways it shifted things. You know, things I was able to say, like, hey, I'm feeling really disconnected from you. I've never felt like this in the entire time we've been together. Um, I'm I'm actually worried. And for him to say, like, me too, I've never felt like this before. It scares me. So, like that conversation, and then everything that was able to come after that, it's just, it's really interesting. And they're small, like they're really, really small things, Liz, to do that really shift things in a in a really kind of magical way. And I've had uh, you know, a bunch of people who have done it and they check in with me and they're like, Andrea, it's hard. I'm like, oh yeah, I know. Doing anything every day is hard. Um, and being really intentional, but it's like making eye contact one day, like intentional eye contact, dancing, um, you know, doing a you know, cleanse in in a space, setting some intentions. Like they're all really small, doable things, but having, excuse me, having that um everyday kind of thing, if you've ever prepared for a marathon or any kind of a big race, like doing something really intentionally for a period of time, it's hard. And so it's incredible. I keep thinking, I'd like to do a research study, like with, you know, a thousand couples and have see what, you know, see really what the numbers um what the numbers say.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Yeah. I love that it's uh small, simple, I think, because now we can wrap our minds and our hearts around. At least I feel that way, right? I can do something a little bit different every single day for 21 days. It's just a fun experiment.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

I love it. It's really powerful. Yeah, I can I can just only imagine how powerful it is. I like that. And one of the like the first one, the fur the the first day is to look through old photos of your of your spouse. That is one of the things that softens your heart, opens it up in such because you see, like, oh my God, we were so young. We were so cute. Oh, look at how little our babies were, look at how young our parents were, right? It's like all of these life stages that you're just your heart, your heart softens, which then enables you to move forward with um each of the tasks as they get a little bit more difficult and more um intimate.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

That's really beautiful. I even go back a little bit further. I've told Dane that I have a picture of my husband as a child, small child, and you know, young little guy. And that keeps my heart soft. With a darling boy. You know, I love that kid. Is there is there anything, Andrew, we haven't talked about that you that you would love to? Anything you're especially passionate about that that stands out to you that we haven't mentioned yet?

SPEAKER_00 36:57

Um, I mean, like you guys, I'm passionate in helping couples break those cycles, those patterns, those unconscious um ways of being in relationship for themselves, but really for their kids. And that not necessarily they have children, but they've got nieces and nephews or neighborhood kids,

Imperfect Repair And Kids Watching

SPEAKER_00 37:16

um, you know, friends, kids. Like it's just having a a younger generation see a couple do things differently, I think is is profoundly revolutionary.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Not perfectly, I noticed you said. Not perfectly. Not about being perfect, Andrea, right? Tell more, tell us more. Because we're never gonna be that way. And I think sometimes, even just for me as a marriage therapist, I get a little discouraged when when I when I'm personally am not perfect, I feel like I should know better, right? I've done this 35 years. And I think, oh my goodness, I I should, you know, be so much better than I am even at times. Have a great marriage, but when when those little zingers happen, I think, oh, I'm so discouraged. Like, there I go again, there I go again.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

But it's like the onion, right? It's like layer after layer of maturity just happening. And um, and I think the things that we, especially as therapists, because I think we're supposed to be perfect, we get that put on us. Um, oh, it's never your fault because you're perfect, um, right? We get that kind of feedback a lot. Um, oh, well, that's because that's your marriage. That's not a real marriage. Like I hear all those things. Um, or in session if I make a mistake. I think it's, I think when those things happen, that's where really the juice is and where the healing is and um and the connection, right? To be like, oh yeah, I just, I just lost my cool and that wasn't okay. What was going on for me? You know, and just like asking yourself that and naming it to your partner, and then to be like, oh, so it's not always all my fault. And you're like, nope, that would, that was mine. That was mine. It's it's really powerful. And perfection doesn't exist.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

Perfection, you say sometimes it isn't very serious. I like the analogy.

SPEAKER_04 39:24

We'll be right back after this brief message.

SPEAKER_02 39:37

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

It's been so fun.

SPEAKER_06 39:42

Yeah, it really has been. It's been uh so great. Before we let you go, we do love to ask a couple of questions. The first one being, what do you feel like is the key to a stronger marriage connection?

SPEAKER_00 39:56

I think having a shared vision, I think really having a shared vision on terms of how what you want um in your marriage, in your family, in your community, I think that shared vision um is something that is really, really essential. And it's something that I feel like as you're getting married, you know, before you've made this commitment to really explore what your shared vision is. And it's it's hard. Some people um have a hard time being like, well, I don't even know what I'm gonna want to do next week. Well, that's when you have to really sit down and be like, okay, let's let's dream together and let's see how we can create this. Um, you know, and obviously practicing not defensive communication is the other key piece. But if you can really be like, you know, we want to um, I'd like to retire at this age, or I'd like to buy a house, or I'd like to make certain we go on these, like just having that shared vision and keep updating that vision ever kind of every year. Like, how did we do last year? Um, what do we want to do this year? How do we want to how do we want to go forward into the world?

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Yeah. Again, you have something great on your website for that. It's what is what is that? Annual is an annual review? What are all those? The annual relationship review. That is brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

Yeah. Well, because you get with, you know, not our jobs, but in, you know, if you work in a corporate job, you get reviews annually, right? Your boss, your co-workers, usually a 365 review. And so you get feedback, like how you're showing up. And you don't get that in your marriage, except for like in the one-off, like, but when you sit down and be like, here's the things I did well, here's the things you did well, here's the things I need to improve upon, here's the things you need to improve upon. Oh, here's the things you think I did well, here's the thing, right? It's just, it like makes you really wake up to what what you're doing, why you're, you know, what you're choosing.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

What's just this, what this is all about, right? I think it's very courageous to do that as well. Yeah. It does take a lot of safety. Yeah. Safety and courage and um wisdom to to realize how important it is. Just to add, I'm sorry, dear Dave, with all Andrea's keen insights. Um, we want our friends here to be able to access you on Andrea Denjinger.com. That's where you can find the loop breaker and all these other key resources, the one in one 21-day experiment and the um the annual review. With the strong presence on social media, where can illustrate as easily find you, please, Andrea?

SPEAKER_00 42:33

I mean, I'm Therapy with Andrea on TikTok. I'm

Shared Vision And Annual Relationship Review

SPEAKER_00 42:37

at Andrea Dindinger on Instagram, on Facebook, um, on LinkedIn, on YouTube. It's, you know, it's basically my name, Andrea Dindinger. You'll be able to find me. Or if you go to my website, you know, there's those little buttons up at the top that you just click on it and you'll be taken there.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

We will add all that to our show notes. So perfect. Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 43:00

Yeah, for sure. Andrew, thank you so much for coming on. Before we wrap up, is there we call it a takeaway of the day, is there a take-home message you hope our listeners will remember from our discussion today?

SPEAKER_00 43:15

I guess what I would love for your listeners to take home is uh to really keep in mind uh it's not personal when somebody is losing their cool. Um and it's not personal when you lose your cool on the other person. And just if you can really take that home, like this person is really suffering, even if it's, you know, like the cashier at the grocery store, right? If you don't take it personally that they're snotty to you and you're just like, you know, we have no idea what other people are going through. And if we can just give a little bit of grace um and not take it personally, I think that's a huge gift.

SPEAKER_06 43:54

Indeed. Yeah, well said, thank you.

Where To Find Andrea’s Resources

SPEAKER_06 43:57

What about you?

SPEAKER_01 43:59

You know, I I I love the hult. Or I well, I hold I kinda like too. I just made that up. Um, but um I also I love um the bookmark, bookmark. Why do I love it so much? Because I think it's so respectful. I'm not putting you off. I'm not um dismissing that we want to come back to this. So bookmark always is like, I this is important to me, and let's let's review this when we can, when we're cooler hearts prevail. That's just brilliant. What about you? What's your greatest takeaway from our time together with Andrea?

SPEAKER_06 44:32

No, it's probably just one of the insights toward the latter end of our discussion, and that was just picking up on this, you know, that the Andrea, you you don't have a perfect marriage, Liz. Your marriage is not perfect. But I'm I'm the first one to admit, yeah, I don't have a perfect marriage. So I hope our listeners don't get the idea that you you know, therapists or professionals or professors or authors, experts, or we're all like working and sh we have the same struggles. We all get kind of the we all get triggers with with different things. And so we're in this working on things, and just the fact that people are listening right now, I think that's that is a step, right? You're taking the step, you're seeking out resources and intentionality. That's what creates a stronger marriage connection, is is trying. I want to be better, I want to do better. Not shaming yourself when you make a mistake and get down. But coming back and saying there are some great things out there. There's more information, more resources out there than hyperbole for left.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

And peeling the onion, I and like Andrew said, Dave, but I'm I'm gonna keep that in my vocal point.

SPEAKER_06 45:38

Yep, yeah, for sure. Oh Andrew, this has been so very helpful, my friend. What a great uh discussion. Thank you for the great work that you're doing. You're helping countless couples doing so much good in the world. We're going to share, as Liz said, your resources and links so um couples can reach out and access those. So thanks again for coming on today.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

Thank you so much, Dave. Thank you so much, Liz. It's so great to meet you guys.

SPEAKER_06 46:06

Uh yeah, likewise pleasures are that?

SPEAKER_01 46:11

I'm so glad our paths crossed. I think we shouldn't hear this again in the downry, yeah. Live cover too.

SPEAKER_06 46:16

Absolutely. Yeah, what a delightful conversation. Absolutely. And hopefully, if you're not checking out the YouTube, our our listeners, you gotta check out the YouTube and versions of this. Andrew is such a a delight. Uh, we're able to see the dog in the background, but she's got a an amazing dog. Uh yeah, back there somewhere as well. So oh, Andrew, what a what a joy. Yeah, thank you again for coming on. And for our listeners, we will see you next time. Thanks for joining us on another episode of Stronger Marriage Connection Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

And remember, it's the small and simple things that create a stronger marriage connection. Take good care of yourselves and each other.

SPEAKER_05 46:57

Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us a favor and take a second to subscribe to our podcast and the Utah Marriage Commission YouTube channel at Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the show. Be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment, and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at StrongerMarriageWife and Facebook at Stronger Marriage. So be sure to share with us which topics you loved, which guests

Subscribe, Share, And More Support

SPEAKER_05 47:26

we should have on the show next. If you want even more resources to improve your marriage or relationship connection, visit strongermarriage.org where you'll find free workshops, e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys, and more. Each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, Rex Polanis, and the team at Utah State University, and you, our audience. You make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions, and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.