Why Conflict Is A Cry For Safety And How To Respond | Kirsten Davidson | 185

We sit down with psychotherapist Kirsten Davidson to unpack why couples drift into disconnection and how Internal Family Systems therapy can help us lead ourselves with more clarity, compassion, and courage. We challenge the stories we tell ourselves in conflict, practice speaking from “parts” instead of blame, and lay out simple shifts that rebuild real connection. 

• assumptions driving communication breakdowns and unnecessary hurt 
• avoiding hard talks out of fear of the truth and discomfort 
• using IFS “parts” language to create space and reduce shame 
• defining self-energy and what “self-led” looks like at home 
• turning fights into dialogue instead of debate 
• choosing radical honesty about our limits and patterns 
• why couples counseling works better when we go earlier 
• tips for newlyweds and engaged couples to benchmark what works 
• resources to learn IFS, including Richard Schwartz’s No Bad Parts 
• how we build hope when couples feel exhausted and stuck 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:03

On today's episode, Dr. Liz and I welcome Kirsten Davidson to the show. We break down internal family systems therapy, and she provides some tips to help couples first become more aware of their own emotions and parts of their being and then helps them move forward in healthy ways. Kirsten Davidson is a registered psychotherapist and founder of Mind the Gaps Psychotherapy in Ontario, Canada. Kirsten helps individuals and couples move out of disconnection and stuck patterns into more intentional,

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_02 0:34

connected ways of living using a trauma-informed approach grounded in internal family systems and relational therapy. We hope you enjoy the show. Hey friends, welcome to another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection Podcast. I'm Dr. Dave here at Utah State University, alongside Dr. Liz Hale, our psychologist, and we're aiming to bring you the very best that we have in research and resources, along with a few tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. All right, today we're diving into something a lot of couples feel but don't always know how to talk about, why relationships can start to feel disconnected, and what it actually takes to rebuild real connection, which we're all about here on the podcast. We're joined by a therapist who helps couples move beyond avoidance and into more honest, courageous relationships, even when that means leaning into discomfort. Really glad you're here. Welcome to the show, Kirsten Davidson.

SPEAKER_04 1:35

Thank you so much, Dave and Liz, for having me. It's a pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

We're thrilled to have you on, Kirsten. Before we jump in, can you share a bit about your professional journey? What made you want to dive into the deep waters of being a psychotherapist and help people with relationship challenges? This is not an easy area.

SPEAKER_04 1:56

Yes, absolutely. And you get mixed feedback, right? Uh from people of, oh, you're a couples therapist. It's either, oh, that's so cool, or oh wow, you're brave. Yeah, right. Um, yeah, yeah. So it dates way back, me

Kirsten’s Story Of Rupture And Repair

SPEAKER_04 2:10

wanting to be a therapist, back to childhood, but in terms of going into relationships, witnessing marital dynamics and family building and breaking and building and breaking throughout my personal life growing up was a really big catalyst. So the long and the short, uh, both my parents have been remarried multiple times. I've had a total of seven step siblings throughout my life, lived in over 14 different homes before the age of 20. So lots of rupture and repair, rupture and repair. And that's what couples therapy is is rupture and repair. And so, you know, although at the time I didn't know it, those lived experiences were kind of shaping my interest and also ability to connect with people going through that type of rupture and repair.

SPEAKER_02 2:57

Wow. All kinds of stuff. And I had to mention, Kirsten, your background. I mean, for our listeners, you you got to go on and check out. So she actually had a pretty uh creative background, a bunch of stuff that you that you created, you have on the wall. I just have to point that out because it's it's uh unique, I guess is the right word, right?

SPEAKER_03 3:16

Some of that was from childhood, even, right? Some of those.

SPEAKER_04 3:20

Yeah, a lot of this was uh so what what Dave's referring to for the people who can't see are uh my whole background here in my studio is my artwork. And um, a lot of it I created in high school, and a lot of it is to do with our lived experiences and the nature of the mind. So yeah, very trippy.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Yeah, very trippy indeed. Yes. Can you kind of give us the the background of the scoops over this happened, right? Speaking about childhood and part of who you are. Can you give us the quick rundown of what's going on behind you?

SPEAKER_04 3:53

Yeah, absolutely. So this is my recording studio, also my office, also my art studio. So it's a mix of everything, but all my artwork behind me, a lot of it I did when I was in high school and younger. Uh, one of the pieces I did for my therapy office, but always, always since I was little, my artwork reflects something to do with psychology, something to do with the nature of the mind. Um, so I can speak to this one here. It's a triptych. The TV's covering it a little bit, but uh, for anyone's who has heard of Plato's allegory of the cave, philosophy theory on how things are not always what they seem. So we can see there's a shadow of a tiger, can see a little bit closer. I don't know if you can really see it here, but the tiger is actually made up of butterflies. And then we can see the furthest picture is the butterflies are kind of flying, and there's a puppeteer controlling the butterflies. So that's a take on the allegory of the cave, which is we we don't always know what we're seeing, and oftentimes it's just a mere shadow of something that we think is monstrous and we think is much more dangerous than it is, so also kind of speaks to survival mechanisms. But yeah, that's just an example of one.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Well, yeah, thanks for sharing.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

We haven't guessed. I think that's pretty difficult. Had you been so therapeutic. Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And so it's part of your office now, which I think is wonderful. Who better to be a therapist, Kristen, than someone who has gone through what you have as as with with your parental system and multiple marriages, and that really sends a seeking, doesn't it? Seeking of, gosh, how can we do this well? How can nothing and everything administer education here? So good for you. You know, speaking of today, when you're working with clients now, what what do you see most often? What are what are we most struggling with in our relationships, please?

SPEAKER_04 5:50

Yeah, great question. I think one of the main things I see in my work is communication breakdown, but not just the general communication breakdown, communication breakdown more specific specifically related to assumptions. So when we assume we know what our partner is thinking or feeling or why they're doing the things they're doing, we end up hurting our own feelings.

The Real Root Of Disconnection

SPEAKER_04 6:16

I say hurting our own feelings because often our partner is not actually intending to hurt us. I would say 99.99% of the time when we hurt our partner, it's by accident. And um, so assumptions, right? And then we kind of sit or I sit with couples and we break down, well, what did you actually mean by that? They can hear the true intention versus outcome. And then there's this coming together of, oh, like you, you weren't deliberately trying to hurt me there. So I think, yeah, I think more open communication squashes those assumptions and they kind of sit there like, wow, if we'd have just if we'd have just talked about what we meant there, we could have ended this whole thing.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

Do you see that? Is that any different than what it has been? You've been doing therapy for a bit. You're you're young, but have you seen any kind of shift through the years?

SPEAKER_04 7:10

Yeah, I I would say it seems to be pretty consistent in terms of people coming to couples counseling for the first time, especially. Um, they maybe aren't used to having these vulnerable conversations. So it seems to be a very common theme. I would say pretty consistent throughout my career, that all of a sudden there's this light being shed on things that they both thought they knew about each other. And then it's like, oh wow, that thing I thought I knew about you, I I didn't know about you. That's not a fact.

SPEAKER_03 7:45

Yeah. Vulnerable conversations, we're we're not really often, many of us are not used to having those. We didn't grow up with those necessarily, didn't have them in other relationships. And we don't know how to do it.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

I'm curious with that. I mean, it what's what's going on underneath? Is there something deeper, right, that's that's going on emotionally for people underneath all that?

SPEAKER_04 8:10

Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, where do I begin? So when we talk about um, you know, the style of communication, when someone tends towards internalizing, so kind of withdrawing, not asking questions, back to that assumption piece, um i it's usually because they're nervous about the answer, about the truth, right? So they might not want to initiate the conversation. They think that by initiating conversation over something their partner has done, um, specifically maybe

Fear Of Truth And Avoidance Cycles

SPEAKER_04 8:43

done to them or around them, and they're feeling hurt by that. What I hear often is, well, I don't want to fuel the fire. Like I don't want to, I don't want to stir the waters, I don't want to cause problems. And so often what I'll say with clients is, you know, we're not adding fuel to the fire. We're actually trying to put it out. Like if you can speak to your partner in that moment and express it, you're putting out the fire that was already there. And that can be, that can help shift a little bit because it's like, oh, okay, I'm not I'm not making it worse here.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

We'll be right back after this brief minutes.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

Yeah, yeah. Some common themes that you hear, uh, you know, common fears, I guess, that uh you hear again and again from couples.

SPEAKER_04 9:46

Common fears?

SPEAKER_02 9:47

Yeah, common, you know, what's what's happening uh emotionally? What are they coming with, or is it or is it just unique to every couple?

SPEAKER_04 9:54

Definitely unique to every couple. Um, but just to name a few fears would be having to sit in the discomfort during a session. Things might be quote unquote going well. Um, and I'll I'll tease my clients that I have a relationship with that like, did we did we not get in any fights this week because we communicated, or did we not get in any fights this week because we avoided something that was happening?

SPEAKER_02 10:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:22

So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:25

Which one is it? Yeah, I like this. So you um you often use the phrase self-led in relationships. What I find so interesting, I love this idea. Uh along with you know, hurting my own feelings. That's brilliant. Uh, what does it actually look like in everyday life? The self-led.

SPEAKER_04 10:43

Yeah. Being self-led in terms of the work that I do actually comes from a therapeutic intervention called internal family systems theory. IFS. IFS, yeah. Are you you guys are familiar with IFS? Yeah. So that is a framework that supposes that we all have theoretically the this family of parts inside of us. I always reference those movies inside out for people to kind of conceptualize all the little creatures that live in

IFS Explained And Self-Led Living

SPEAKER_04 11:14

your brain. So we have like we have an innumerable amount of parts inside of ourselves. And with couples, what happens is there are quote unquote parts wars. So there might be a part of you that really wants to connect, you know, and there's a part of them that really needs distance in that moment. And then we have this kind of clashing or this push-pull between parts. I love this parts language because it acknowledges that we are not fully our emotions. You know, these emotions are just um mini experiences. These parts are versions of us that existed way back, usually under the age of 10, um, that have kind of been frozen in time. So we see when we're sitting with couples, if we can get each other to look at each other as being younger versions of themselves, there can be more, more compassion. But needless to say, self-energy is when you are able to speak to these parts of you, befriend these parts of you, and get them to kind of part as clouds away from the sun, which is you. So self-energy is just you, no parts. Just your authentic, curious, creative, connected, um, courageous version of you who knows what to do inherently. So this is the whole we're we're coming home to ourselves rather than um building up some new version. We're just tuning back into who we've always been. That's what self-led means.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

You I mean you mentioned clouds right there, Kirsten. You have to, Kirsten, you often mention uh or bring up metaphors in your work with couples. Why do you think those resonate so much? And is there one that you find yourself coming back to again and again?

SPEAKER_04 12:56

Yeah, metaphors. Oh, I mean, even already in this conversation, you've heard me drop a few.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:01

Uh, I use them all the time, all the time. I think that comes through in my artwork as well. So anything visual has always helped me very deeply. So with clients who are more visual and more imaginative, um, I speak to metaphors because they tell a story. And as humans, we're we're designed to be drawn to stories, right? We remember them, we pass them on. Um, they're also more interesting and they're more relatable. So whenever something comes up for me, like a metaphor, I just go with it and see did that land for them. And most of the time they're like, oh yeah, like now we can we can now speak that way to each other in partnership. We can say um whatever the metaphor that came up in the therapy session was, we can bring that home and have that be almost an inside joke as well. So it holds that that dual purpose there. It helps in the session and then also becomes a thing between the two of them outside of the session.

SPEAKER_02 13:58

Yeah, love it.

SPEAKER_03 13:59

Well, sad with um with with that and being what, ah, too loaded, right? It has a lightness to it when you can present that in session and we can take it home and and utilize it. I think that's just really lovely, Kirsten. You know, a lot of us grow up with this idea that the rel the right relationship should just feel easy. Even those in the field, sometimes I still kind of get caught up in that same belief, like, oh, why is this so hard? And there's something really wrong here. How do you help couples rethink conflict or or tension when it inevitably is going to show up?

SPEAKER_04 14:33

Hmm, yes. I love that you say it's inevitably going to show up. Because it is, I think so many people think that, oh, we never fight. Like, hmm, if that's true,

Healthy Conflict Without Winning

SPEAKER_04 14:44

there's probably some avoidance happening. So yeah, yeah. And and I think so that that comes to what is healthy conflict look like? And um first thing that comes to mind is the difference between dialogue and debate, right? So we can have dialogue without it becoming a debate. Debate is leaning more towards I'm right, you're wrong. We can't see eye to eye. Dialogue is how do I have the humility in that moment to set down what I'm thinking and just try and embody what they're thinking, even just for a moment, and what that would be like. Now that's easier said than done. Um, what that involves is two people being confident and brave enough in themselves to feel safe not being right, if that makes sense. Like to acknowledge, you know, if I'm not right, what does that mean? If there are parts of themselves that are scared to acknowledge, you know, that there might be another valid perspective, then that's something to take to individual counseling too.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

Yeah, Kirsten, for someone who listening who feels uh, you know, maybe a little stuck, whether they're dating or they're married, what's I guess one small shift they could make to start showing up more honestly in their relationships?

SPEAKER_04 16:06

Yeah, feeling feeling stuck and honesty. I think honesty, just as you say those two things together, to me, honesty is the thing that frees someone from being stuck. So being more being more true with yourself and what you can bring to the table, also being radically honest about what your partner can bring to the table and what they're willing to bring to the table is kind of where that repair happens. So shifting from that stuck state to this kind of

Radical Honesty Starts With Self

SPEAKER_04 16:36

movement, flowing, um, working together state does involve radical honesty. Again, to be radically honest, you have to be able to look inward and say, what are my limits right now? Like what's blocking me from going further? What's blocking me from saying how I'm really feeling? Or what's blocking me, say, for someone who's really hot-tempered? What's blocking me from taking it down a notch and speaking and sitting like eye to eye with my partner instead of feeling like I need to overtake them in that moment? So we have to be able to, so much of couples' work is individual work, right? It's so much of it is looking at what am I as an individual bringing to the table or not?

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Yeah, I would like to say that a happy, healthy we consists of a happy, healthy me, right? Getting ourselves whole and maybe not whole, but just working, right? A work in progress. Yeah. Do you have examples or stories of couples and and what they did specifically to turn things around?

SPEAKER_04 17:41

Yeah. Yeah, I a couple come to mind off the top of my head. There is one couple I work with who over the years they shifted from what we would call in emotionally focused therapy, this like approach-approach type of fighting patterns, or or you could say attack attack. Um, so these two that like one gets ruled up, the other gets rolled up. And the more each of them raise their voice, the more the other feels the need to compete to be heard. And over

A Couple’s Shift From Fighting

SPEAKER_04 18:13

time, you know, through going over kind of what you brought up, Liz, like how do couples navigate fair fighting, basically? Like, how do we have disagreements, but then have it turn into dialogue instead of a debate? They they develop this beautiful humility as individuals to say, like, wow, it actually takes much less energy to set down my lay down my sword. Um, and it it's a win-win because the other person's gonna validate you generally when you're gonna validate them. Um and the way that they, the way that they shifted primarily was because they were so fatigued. You know, we see this with couples all the time. They come in and they're like, I'm so done. I hear that all the time. I'm so done, so tired, like I'm I'm exhausted. Sometimes in that state, like that's when they're the most open to alternative options, right? And we see that they're they're like, I'll do anything at this point. We can't keep doing this. And I've been working with them now for almost four years. And last year they got engaged, and they were the first couple I ever saw. So that was very rewarding.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

I don't know where that's really cool. We'll be right back after this brief minute.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

I mean, if you had a if you could just have the megaphone write to the world and say, hey, if if you get to know it, or maybe you have all women in a room, you got all men in a room. Is there advice, is there tips that you would share, you know, that that you're seeing now with these patterns? You'd be like, man, if only more people would stop doing this or start doing more of more of this. What would you say? You can share it with the world. What's what's the advice or tips?

SPEAKER_04 20:10

I love that. I think first thing that comes to mind is no one is trapped in their psyche. Like no one is doomed to the way they were raised or what their biology is. So if someone's coming into a partnership and they're saying, Well, this is who I am, take it or leave it, and the behavior is not helpful, it's harmful, then one or both

You Are Not Stuck In Patterns

SPEAKER_04 20:36

partners are like, Well, I guess this is it. I guess they can't change. So, megaphone to the world, you know, you are not stuck. Like everyone has the ability to shift. Everyone has the ability to release things that are not helping them. And I think we get stuck in this kind of like objectified, um late, like labels can can get in the way of that of, well, I'm just I'm just this way. This is just how I am. And it's just it's simply not true. I mean, the science shows it that neuroplasticity and epigenetics, we the way we interact with the world, with our partners, with everything we do shifts the way that we can show up. So yeah, if ever you're feeling that this is just me, or you're hearing that from your partner, to kind of slow down and get curious about why that's their belief. Because it's, you know, with all the love in my heart, it's just not true.

SPEAKER_03 21:28

Well, it's just not true.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

Liz, Liz and Kirsten, I've got a question for both of you seeing, right? Uh, our listeners, you probably know I you know, I don't do private practice. So I'm curious with each of you, um, do you find that sometimes individuals, couples come in um almost as a last resort? Like Kir Kirsten, you said that you know, I'm done, I'm done, I'm finished with this. Is there a message, I guess, for our listeners who are not quite at that I'm I ain't done, I'm fed at it maybe emotionally. Divorced already in my head, but that are really kind of you know going that direction. So what I guess what I'm saying is that do you want to have counsel or tips for people to say come in and get help before it's way down, you know, the the train has left the station and it's this trying to repair something that has been ruptured for years. Does that make sense, I guess? Do you have a message for the for the world of those who are struggling not to wait years and years to find out?

SPEAKER_03 22:30

My friend. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 22:33

Yeah. And what you're talking about there, Dave, that difference between proactive and reactive. Couples counseling, I think forever has been regarded as a reactive last resort type of measure. And there's so much stigma around it, around like, oh, you're going to you're in couples therapy. Maybe something's wrong there, right? So I think on a systems level, we have a problem in terms of how everyone, not everyone, but majority would say, regard couples therapy.

Why Couples Should Get Help Earlier

SPEAKER_04 23:04

And this this feeling of either being above it or being quote unquote bad enough to need it. And if we could switch that, that would be so beautiful. If we could normalize that every couple, you know, go see a counselor every once in a while to process their patterns. I think that would be really lovely. And there there wouldn't be as much stigma. There wouldn't also be this sense that there's a shame around it. Like I see a lot of shame from couples that kind of still, right? Yeah. Yeah. What about what about you, Liz? What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 23:40

And even just as Dave's heard me say before with some couples, after they'll tell me their story, they look at me and they say, Are we just like the worst couple you've ever seen? You know, bless them, right? Just that shame and that doubt and that wondering of can we really get through this? Because they are exhausted. Do I wish couples would come in sooner? Oh, yes, I do. Do I ever think it's too late? No. But I I do wish they came in sooner. Why? Because I think we could have less um oh, less pain to have to resolve, right? Less less damage, maybe. A little bit more damage control. But I am so hopeful. And sometimes that's what I bring most to the room sometimes, Kirstila. You might feel the same way, is just hope. When they've lost all hope, I'm still the one standing for them, you know, waving that white flag, believing that I I sometimes I use the word actually, the term couples education versus couples therapy. Because I think that's so much of what we do. Um and I think education becomes therapeutic in a way, but it's it's education. Few of us know how to do this thing called marriage until we get in and and get some support and some knowledge, strength and a muscle that's been weak. So much so much of it is education to me.

SPEAKER_04 24:58

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, there can be a lot of empowerment when they are learning too, is what I notice. They they hear something and they go, Oh yeah, that relates and helps explain what we've been experiencing. If there's a term for that, I must not be so crazy. I must not be so alone. Like we hear the shame kind of starting to dissipate from them understanding that there are terms to describe what they're going through. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

Tristan, I'm gonna um pick your brain here for this more selfishly, right? I have a daughter who's uh a married daughter, they have little baby, and I have another daughter who's just celebrated one year being married, and I have another daughter, third daughter, that is getting ready to be uh to be married here in about a month. Um, just from your perspective, kind of, you know, young years, newly waked years, first together. Um do you have tips, advice, right? And I can just I'll and I'll be able to take this episode and say, all right,

Newlywed Tips For More Self-Energy

SPEAKER_02 25:57

girls, here let's decurse them for this for you. Yeah, this is this is for your uh all. I mean, there's there are many of our listeners kind of in the beginning stages, but do you have kind of the some tips, some advice to kind of get on a better path, form better habits?

SPEAKER_04 26:15

Yeah, I love that. I think that when we're talking about early phases of a long-term relationship, there can feel like there's a lot of pressure. Surprisingly, like I love that you bring this up because surprisingly, I have worked with a lot of couples that are engaged and their wedding is coming up, say within the same year, and that's when they they seek out help because they maybe have not addressed some of the long-standing patterns or even new patterns that have emerged. So if I could give any advice to either newlyweds or people that are um just got engaged or they're thinking of long-term partnership, it's first of all, be able to understand what it's like to be in self-energy. So to bring it back to that dialogue we were having a few minutes ago around what is it, what does it mean to embody self-energy? Well, that means to be leading from a place of love and not a place of fear, from a place of confidence, not a place of insecurity. If you on an individual level know what it's like to embody your true self and to not feel um all of those parts kind of taking over, then you and your partner and your partner as well, you and your partner can show up and note and name those moments in the moment. You know, this is things are going so well. Why are they going so well? Explore why things are going well. People don't often explore why things are going well. People will explore when things are not going well, which is also important. But to explore, like, why is it working so well? And I'm bringing this up because when it's to do with like newlyweds or weddings coming up, there's a lot of excitement, right? That's maybe someone at their best. So then we can explore why it is going so well right now? How can we sustain this? And I know, you know, the honeymoon phase will not last forever, but if there's a lot of self-energy around these beautiful milestones, that is the perfect place to get a benchmark of why we collaborate well in these moments for the couples that are struggling in those moments. And maybe it's bringing out the parts of them that are clashing, right? Maybe wedding planning's not going so well, or you know, after the wedding it's not what they thought, then that's also a moment, right? That's also an opportunity to revert and explore back. Well, when were things clicking? Why aren't they clicking now? So, really, because I take such an IFS-informed approach to my work, it's hard for me to separate that out. So, just speaking from that self-energy, if if everyone who's getting into long-term partnership can acknowledge when a part has taken over, that's huge. Because they can say, Oh, you know what? Right now I'm feeling extremely angry, right? That doesn't feel like me. That just feels like a part of me. And I want to talk to you about that. Well, that's huge. That's mindfulness in action.

SPEAKER_03 29:03

Yeah. In a very healthy way, right? Anger sometimes can be so uh such a turnoff or um something we want to avoid. Like, oh no, here it comes. Here it comes.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

We'll be right back after this brief message.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_03 29:31

So with the with going back to parts, what can you just name some of the parts for our listeners with i events information family?

SPEAKER_04 29:40

Yeah, internal family systems therapy. Yeah, no, that's okay. Yeah, so parts uh can be quite literally anything. There are no bad parts, if you will. There are parts that are trying to protect you. Um, and usually they're doing a pretty bad job, but they're trying. So I'll give an example. So in a partnership, there

Naming Protective Parts That Take Over

SPEAKER_04 30:02

one we see often is a part in both couples that really needs to be right and really needs to explain themselves. And that part, likely on an individual level, is protecting one of the partners from a plethora of things, feeling stupid, feeling worthless, feeling unlovable. Like it could go as deep or as shallow as you can imagine. And these parts are stepping in and fighting really hard for their person to try and get them to not feel those things. You know, the not so fun outcome is that usually that's exactly what ends up happening because the partner is frustrated by that defensiveness. They're not feeling validated. They might also be getting defensive. Both of them are left feeling maybe not as lovable as before, or maybe not as intelligent as before. So that's just an example of one part. But if we think of these parts as any emotion you can imagine, it always has some type of protective mechanism.

unknown 31:09

I like that.

SPEAKER_03 31:10

If if a couple wants to know more about internal family systems, is there a book you recommend? Is there do you have a favorite?

SPEAKER_04 31:16

Absolutely. Yes. So Dr. Richard Schwartz is the founder of the theory. And I would recommend the book called No Bad Parts by him. He has a few, but I think that's a great starter because it really gives it more layers, but in a way that um is is very understandable. For therapists out there listening, I would recommend the Internal Family System

IFS Resources And Where To Find Kirsten

SPEAKER_04 31:40

second edition on the actual therapeutic intervention.

SPEAKER_03 31:44

Ah well, thank you for both of those. That's great resources. You're helping so many people.

SPEAKER_04 31:55

Yeah, absolutely. So to find out more about me, you can go to my website, which is mindthegaps.co. And from there, we have links to all of my social media platforms. I have a podcast I used to run. I also write for psychology today and do quite a few community interactions. But yeah, I offer virtual therapy and also in person in Ontario.

SPEAKER_03 32:20

Oh, good. And what's your podcast?

SPEAKER_04 32:22

My podcast is called, yeah, it's called Mind the Gaps. And that's also the name of my therapy practice, Mind the Gap Psychotherapy.

SPEAKER_03 32:30

Good for you. We will add those resources to our show notes for an easy find. Thank you for that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

Very helpful. Well, Kir Kirsten, before we let you go, we have a couple of questions for you. We like to ask all of our guests. The first one is what do you feel like is a key to a stronger marriage connection?

SPEAKER_04 32:51

Key to a stronger marriage connection. The courage to be vulnerable, as cheesy as that sounds. The courage to be vulnerable. I say courage because it is so brave to admit when we're not feeling ourselves or we're not feeling safe. I think there's a lot of stigma around

Keys To Vulnerability And Takeaways

SPEAKER_04 33:13

tears as being weakness or anger as being weakness. And and to just name, like, you know, I'm I'm feeling this way right now, and I'm not feeling like myself is so incredibly brave.

SPEAKER_03 33:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:27

And to be able to do that with a partner receiving it is a huge test, too. That if I can be that way and my partner receives that, beautiful, they'll probably deliver that back. And now we're stronger for it.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

Yeah, beautiful. Thank you. A take-home message for our listeners today.

SPEAKER_04 33:46

Yeah, I think take-home message through listening about IFS and about what it means to be self-led would be if like if this is new language for you, then strongly encourage an exploration of your emotions as pieces of you, even in day-to-day those so small mindfulness exercise would be when you start to feel overtaken by anything, even joy, right? Like quite literally any type of really strong, like powerful emotion, or maybe like a part that feels really low and really numb. Any part that doesn't quite feel like you to just notice and and say, Oh, well, that's you know, it's a part of me, it's not all of me. And just get cu to get curious about that, I think is so huge.

SPEAKER_03 34:37

There's a part of me. I really love that languageing. There's a part of me, it's really angry right now. There's a part of me that has nothing to do with you right now. There's a part of me. I think it's it's lovely.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, Liz. What about you?

SPEAKER_03 34:50

I, you know, I've never heard this hurting my own feelings. I'm I'm doing that in my interpretation and um my assumptions. I think that's really great. It reminds me a little bit about the story I tell myself is, right? The story I tell myself or how I'm hurting my own feelings is. I really like that, Kirsten. Dave, what about you? What stands out most to you from our conversation with Kirsten Davidson?

SPEAKER_02 35:12

Yeah, you know what, going back uh to the beginning of what we were talking about, kind of that healthy, happy you. Um, if if you're just not feeling, you know, if you're if you're off, if you need a process of things, whether it is past um trauma, whether it's current difficulties, whatever that is, uh resources, turn outwardness and resources, get some out. There's so much good information out there, resources, therapists, relationship, marriage education. Um it uh it takes intentionality, it takes work, uh it is it is worth it. Don't cut things off and let things build for years and years and years uh before things explode and then you get help. But even if you have and things are really, you know, rock bottom right now, still as Liz talks about reach out. There's still hope for for couples. Yeah, if both are willing to put in the put in the work. So uh Kirsten, thank you so much for joining us all the way from Ontario. Uh we sure appreciate having you on today.

SPEAKER_04 36:14

Thank you so much, Dave and Liz. This was such a pleasure.

SPEAKER_03 36:17

I could hear just a little bit of that Canadian touch, which I just love. I do too, yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. A little bit. Yeah, love it. Don't lose it.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

Yeah, exactly. Yep. All right, friends, that does it for us here. We will see you next time on another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection podcast.

SPEAKER_03 36:37

That's right. And remember, it's a small change as it creates a stronger marriage connection. Take good care of you and each other.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us a favor and take a second to subscribe to our podcast and the Utah Marriage Commission YouTube channel at Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the show. Be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment, and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at StrongerMarriageWife and Facebook at StrongerMarriage. So be sure to share with us which topics you love and which guests we should have on the show next. If you

Subscribe, Share, And Get Resources

SPEAKER_02 37:17

want even more resources to improve your marriage and relationship connection, visit strongermarriage.org where you'll find free workshops, e-courses, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys, and work. Each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, Rex Pilanis, and the team at Utah State University, and you, our audience, you make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions, and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.