Stronger Marriage Connection

The Three Phases To Rebuild Trust After Infidelity | Bill Bumberry | 186

• Utah Marriage Comission • Season 4 • Episode 186

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Discovering infidelity can be one of the most painful experiences a couple faces. In this episode, Dr. Bill Bumberry shares practical guidance and hope for couples navigating betrayal trauma and rebuilding trust. Drawing on decades of clinical experience and the Gottman Method, Bill explains the three key phases of healing after infidelity—atonement, attunement, and attachment—and offers actionable strategies for restoring safety, connection, and commitment. Whether you're recovering from betrayal or looking to strengthen your relationship against future threats, this conversation provides valuable insight and encouragement. 


• defining infidelity as betraying an agreement plus secrecy 
• why social media and dating apps make hiding easier 
• how friendships drift into emotional and physical affairs 
• common trauma responses for the hurt partner, including hypervigilance and dysregulation 
• why remorse has to become active compassion to restore safety 
• using the Gottman phases of atonement, attunement, and attachment 
• deciding which details help and which details harm early on 
• how avoidance and negative sentiment override set the stage for disconnection 
• what to consider when talking with kids at different ages 
• daily connection rituals that matter most, including the first two minutes together 
• loyalty as an active practice, especially when your partner is not present

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Welcome And Why Infidelity Hurts

SPEAKER_04

On today's show, Liz and I sit down with Dr. Bill Bomberry for an insightful discussion about one of the most painful experiences a couple can face infidelity and betrayal trauma. Discovering an affair can shake the very foundation of trust, safety, and intimacy, leaving many wondering if healing is even possible. In this episode, Dr. Bomberry shares hope, insight, and practical guidance for couples working to rebuild and recover after betrayal. Dr. Bill Bomberry is a licensed psychologist with more than twenty-five years of experience helping couples heal, reconnect, and rebuild their relationships. He's a senior certified Gottman couples therapist and clinical trainer who has been affiliated with the Gottman Institute for more than two decades. In addition to working with couples, he mentors therapists across the U.S. and internationally and provides professional trainings in the Gottman method around the world. His work focuses on helping couples face even the deepest relationship wounds, including infidelity with hope and courage. We hope you enjoy the show.

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection. I'm psychologist Dr. Liz Hale, along with the beloved professor Dr. Dave Schram. Together, we are dedicating our life's work to bringing you really the best we have in valid marital research, along with a few tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. Well, Dave, I don't know. I I I think few experiences compare to the devastation felt upon discovering a spouse has been unfaithful. And I think we all know someone, if it's not us personally, then we know someone close to us. But betrayal causes that deep, even a physical brokenness, shattering safety, trust, intimacy. Some even have called it a soul wound. Whether emotional or sexual, affairs are sadly all too common and can leave you feeling that that life and the relationship will never be the same. And I think there is some truth to that. Some things have irrevocably changed. However, here's the good news there is healing after the trauma of infidelity. And trust can be rebuilt even when you fear things have changed forever. Our guest today supports couples going through this most devastating experience. He sees them all the way through to the other side of recovery and healing. His book is well titled The Healing and Trauma of Infidelity. Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection, Dr. Bill Bumberry.

SPEAKER_01

Hey, a pleasure to be here. Thank you, Liz.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, it's so good to have you here. Gosh, I've been looking forward to this interview. You know, discovering that your partner is having an affair just cracks the entire foundation of your relationship and the walls come tumbling down. Where does a couple even begin when their world is shattered?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so I think you picked a lovely, poignant description, shattered, because it does change the whole foundation of everything. And it's irrevocably changed. It doesn't mean it's broken forever, but it means to be put back together, to come back together again, to be as close as you once were or hope to be again. It does take a lot of work.

What Infidelity Really Means

SPEAKER_01

And early on, it takes a bit more than just um therapy, the therapy goal. It takes the idea of do it, is this even right for me? The fundamental agreement that couples have has been broken. They're, you could give a simple definition of infidelity, is the betrayal of an understanding that they have, an agreement that they have, and then it's kept secret. And that betrayal and that secrecy has the potential to break it, to not come back, to not become whole again. It also, just like perhaps broken bones can do, it can provide an opportunity for deepening and strengthening relationships sometimes beyond where it was at the beginning. Um it's it's not that you do it for that reason, um, but some couples come out stronger and have a deeper bond after this struggle uh than before.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Wasn't it, oh gosh, Bill, who um who was it that um was also a big name in the field of infidelity recovery that sometimes would suggest infidelity was good for marriage? Do you know who I'm talking about? I don't I don't know, people have said that for years, but yeah, it's quite a stretch, but but respectfully so that that's a lot to ask for, right? It's not why we do it. That's right. And so I appreciate you saying that for some couples. And for other couples, they get to where they were, and for some couples they don't. Is there what's been your success rate or the the rate in this field of recovery? What would you say?

SPEAKER_01

So when we talk about success, I mean, I don't think about it in terms of rate because every couple's different, every couple that comes to you is unique. But what I do believe strongly in my data is my experience is when couples come with open hearts, with a desire to see what's possible, with a willingness to do the work, they find a way to have a better, a stronger, a healthier relationship. Whether that leads them to stay together or not, whether it leads them to be closer or not, uh is another question. But from the pain that they experience, from the distancing and the and the disillusion that they've gone through, uh, a certain amount of healing, I think, is possible for almost everybody. And really deep healing is possible for many.

SPEAKER_00

That's encouraging.

SPEAKER_04

Wow, power is such an important topic. Bill, can you go back to your definition? You know, you said almost kind of quickly. I just want to make sure our listeners hear that because sometimes they think, you know, what is infinite, what's cheating? You know, what actually is that? Can you repeat what you said?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. This is the simplest um definition I can come up with, and it looks different for everybody, but the two pieces of it are there's a betrayal of an understanding or an agreement between partners. That understanding might be explicitly stated, it might be implicit. We all know what's expected of us, what's right, what's wrong, where the line is. But it's a betrayal of that agreement. And the second part then is we choose, we make the decision to keep it secret, to not share it with our partner.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, yeah, yeah. Those two people keep it secret. I betrayed yeah, this agreement, something that we had together. And yeah, I felt betrayed. Okay, now the second part of this is uh uh social media, you know, dating apps. It feels like today's age, it's is it just easier now because it there's more access, it's more kind of subtle and it's the secrety, all that kind of stuff. What's your take on like all the the social media and dating apps and how it relates to infidelity?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so sure. It's much more available, it's much more accessible, and it's much easier to hide if you want to. You know, as you asked that question, my thoughts went to like for each individual person and each individual couple, do you view

Social Media Boundaries That Protect Trust

SPEAKER_01

social media as something that's individual and private? Or if you're in a personal, intimate relationship, do you do you view the social media world as something that still honor, has to honor the bond that you have together? Is it truly an individual right and choice to do whatever you can in your social media world, or do you have an obligation to your partner? And and that bond or that bind is really very common with couples, the struggle over that, right?

SPEAKER_04

I'm curious, a follow-up with that. It feels like a second audience, at least that I've I've read about, you maybe you can help clarify, are uh friends, kind of this close people who I'm around, you know. So social media is kind of I can reach out. Uh, but it feels like this kind of this friendship group of people we tend to maybe hang out with, and maybe we go on vacations with, we tend to kind of get to know at a different level. What's your take on that?

SPEAKER_01

In terms of the betrayal question? Yeah, yeah, the betrayal uh question. So so uh a woman named Shirley Glass wrote a book uh called Not Just Friends, and it's was a very popular book and famous book about infidelity. And her data was that the majority of people who ended up crossing the line from a friendship to a uh a sexual affair, physical affair, did start from a friendship-based point of view. They worked together, they shared emotional moments together, and then over time, as they got emotionally closer, something began to happen. Not with everybody, of course, but with some. And the key there is when you begin to feel something bubbling, some kind of thing that you weren't expecting, let's say, what do you do with it? Do you choose to keep that secret or do you confide that and do you share that with your partner? I've had I've had clients who've come and said, you know, I don't, I they came to therapy because one of them went home and said, I hate to tell you this, I don't want to talk about it, but I'm having feelings towards my boss, and I don't want it to go any further. And I think we need to talk about us and what's happening in our relationship. Takes a lot of courage to do that, doesn't it? Right.

SPEAKER_00

And maturity and say, wow.

SPEAKER_04

It's such a slippery slope because I my thinking is that it maybe doesn't start out right that way. It is just, it's kind of fun. It's just such a gradual process, you know, the warming, the cook, and the frog, it's just so subtle and slow almost that you almost don't even realize it before. Now I have these feelings, but hi high, but and then maybe denials, like, no, it's not that that much, and yeah, trouble.

SPEAKER_01

But but then there's that moment where you notice something that feels different, right? That this feels a little more, it feels too good, or it feels good in a different way. Or, you know, my wife hasn't smiled at me that way in a long time. It's nice to receive all of a sudden, it just begins, like like you were saying, the frog in the hot water. Uh it begins to change or to morph, sometimes without our conscious consent, but often, and I would say usually there's some level of recognition that emerges fairly quickly.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah. So I guess just warning signs for our listeners and others is like just stay guarded. Yeah, protect that. It can happen so slowly, but almost quickly as well. Like, wow, I didn't realize. Yeah, wow, it's fast. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Good people have affairs, right? We're all vulnerable. And I think sometimes it's it's when we believe that, oh, that would never happen to us. He would never, she would never, I would never. Those are, I think, maybe some of the more vulnerable couples, Bill. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_01

For sure. I think there's some general data that says uh over 80% of adults in our culture believe infidelity is wrong. 80, 85, 90%, but a higher percentage than that end up finding themselves in that position. Or from a clinical point of view, what I would say putting themselves in that position. Uh, because I think that even though there is um you have you do have to be vigilant, at some point people have to recognize they made a choice, they made a decision to go down that path. And it doesn't mean it was premeditated at all. I'm not saying that, but at some point it becomes conscious. A choice.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. We'll be right back after this brief message.

SPEAKER_02

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_00

Do you have um advice for us on using social media? Uh, because then things get a little slippery, tricky, right, with Facebook and old loves from high school. And seems like that's also a little bit of a red flag.

SPEAKER_01

Well, it is a red flag, and it's a it's a it can be a dangerous thing, it can be a great thing. But if you go back to the definition of a betrayal of an agreement and then kept secret, what does that suggest the solution is? Well, the solution is that you be consciously uh in conversation with your partner about what the boundaries are. And every couple can have different boundaries. Um, having a romantic relationship with another person in some couples is not a betrayal because it's what they agreed to. So, what we're talking about is can the couple keep conscious and conversational about what's okay for them, um, what's okay to them, and can they keep that updated over time? And for me, then above all, uh when you notice yourself beginning to slip, uh, that you find the courage to have a conversation with your partner about it.

SPEAKER_00

That's just tremendous advice. I hope people will take us too to heart on that. This can be such as we've said, um, a painful, life-altering experience. So we have the betrayed and the betrayer. For the betrayed, what are some of the common emotional responses upon discovering uh a betrayal?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so the you know, the sentence that comes to mind in my mind is um that betrayal is our greatest fear and our darkest night. It's the thing that in our culture in general, um, but I think globally, um, is the thing that terrifies us the most because we the idea of attachment, of connection,

When A Friendship Starts Crossing Lines

SPEAKER_01

that life and relationships are about bondedness and about closeness. And when that is threatened, when our bonds are in danger, we have this thing called primal panic. We are not only nervous or scared, but we are terrified. Um, and we we fear the end of the relationship. Um, we fear that it's perhaps it's already too late. And so when when the the well, if we use terms the hurt partner and the involved partner, just for lack of better terms, when the hurt partner discovers uh that the violation has happened and it's been kept secret, it does throw up in the air everything. Do we have a future or not? Is there a path forward together or not? And really, the first thing that person needs to be able to deal with, are they in a place to even make that decision? I would argue there is a path forward. There is a path forward to at least in a conscious and clear way begin to kind of script uh the next chapter in your life. But for many people, it's not a foregone conclusion that staying together is their goal or their only goal. I think most people in relatively healthy relationships would say, if we can get, if we can fix this, if we can get close again, let's do it and say, but it's not a given. And the fact I believe that on Monday doesn't mean I'm going to feel the same on Tuesday. It's a moving target.

SPEAKER_00

Is the secrecy about this harder than the betrayal itself?

SPEAKER_01

You know, it often is. I think it's hard to it's hard for me to do a comparative, but um but the idea that we all make mistakes and everybody kind of knows that, and we all do things where we betray ourselves, even. And you could argue that many people who get involved in infidelity situations have actually betrayed their own values and who they are as a person. But then to not bring it to your partner, to not share it with them, as difficulty as it is, says something specifically about how you view them, that you don't trust them to handle it with you. You don't trust them to be able to talk about it with you. And again, ideally, this happens far beyond or far before it's gotten to a sexual place, and it's just gotten to the place of this smile at Starbucks that you notice something that you miss. And many people think that what's really under infidelity, uh even sexual infidelity, is not the sexual behavior itself, but it's loneliness. It's that we've drifted, we've grown apart, and no longer do I feel safe and secure and connected with you.

SPEAKER_00

It's a bit of a wake-up call for the marriage, would you say?

SPEAKER_01

It it can be a wake-up call, right? I think we all need something like that from time to time. Uh, this is a painful way to do it. Um, yeah, for sure.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So the trauma affects the brain and the nervous system, correct? For the hurt person.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. We're in this panic state, we're hyper-vigilant, uh, we sometimes can't think clearly, we sometimes don't sleep or eat, we're so exhausted that that just makes it worse and it doubles, it doubles down on it. And all the time is even the hurt partner often doesn't really know what they need either. They know they need to feel safe again and secure again, but they don't know how to get that.

SPEAKER_00

I appreciate you reminding us too that the involved partner, so I'll use those terms, the hurt partner, the involved partner, also feels that they have betrayed themselves. It's like, how did I do this? This is so against everything I believe in.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's not always true, but when it is true, it's a great resource. Um, it's a painful resource for the involved partner, too. Um, because the when people betray themselves, it's it's just it seems like it's natural instinct to hide and to try to move away from it. But the healing between partners really starts, I think, in many ways, with the hurt partner owning what they did, not and not just taking responsibility for it, yeah, I did it, but realizing that nobody can make you have an affair. You made the choice and the decision to do it. And as you experience your partner's pain and sometimes disorientation, the the question then is inside of you, do you begin to actually feel for them? Do you bubble with some kind of compassion? And compassion to me is an active word. It's a word that not only do I feel sympathy for their pain, but I feel compassion means I feel moved to do what I can to heal it, to relieve it. And that's an essential piece. I mean, the path for the hurt partner to heal is to see um, there's a there's a therapist kind of image that says, when I'm um in injured and damaged like that, uh the healing begins when I see my pain on your face. When I see that my pain touches you, and it it pains you, the pain that you cause me.

SPEAKER_00

Wow, that's powerful.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that was powerful most. Yeah, compassion. My favorite words in the English language, Bill, compassion. Then these these raw, real emotions you may, I mean, anger, an obvious form, and then fear, you know, this fear of the unknown, fear of what's gonna happen, and and then this confuse, right? I thought this was this way, now it's not. So the confusion, this guild and shame, probably all coupled.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you know, and it's cool when you mention um emotions like that. I think that I think this is true generally that in a personal relationship, strong emotions don't travel alone. They travel in clusters. So with a stranger who cuts you off on the highway, you might just be angry. But when your partner does something that makes you angry, there's more to it. There's hurt, there's sadness, there's fear, there's abandonment. It's a whole cluster of deeper emotions. And what the unfortunate thing is when we respond to our partner primarily through anger, that's what they see. And they don't notice all these other things that that might bring more compassion. Being angry at someone doesn't usually evoke much compassion. Usually people kind of get reactive to that. Yep.

SPEAKER_00

Push away, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Right. I yeah, I'm not going to take this. But sadness and hurt and fear and abandonment can evoke actual compassion and caring.

SPEAKER_04

Wow. Bill, I've never heard that. The strong emotions, emotions travel in clusters in close relationships. Close relationships. Yeah, close relationships. That's that's profound, my friend. Yeah, thank you. Um, Bill, is a certified Gottman therapist, consultant, trainer, your work is based on an evidence-based three-free phrase approach to healing after infidelity. We're big fans, right, of Goblin Approach and brought on others related to that. I'm curious, can we briefly go over these three phases and have you describe each one? I know Liz is a fan of these, but let's break them down for our listeners. We talk about the atonement, attunement,

Three Phases Of Gottman Recovery

SPEAKER_04

and attachment. Can you go through those a little bit and explain those for our listeners, what that means?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, for sure. For sure. And so let me just, there's a French philosopher named Badeau who has an image of relationships that I really love. And he talks about relationships starting as chance encounters. You don't find your soulmate, you kind of create your soulmate. That relationships start as chance encounters, and depending on the path you create and the way you walk that path, at the end of the day, it feels like destiny. It wasn't really destiny, but it feels like it. And this thing that we're talking about, infidelity, breaks that whole path. It breaks, it destroys it all. So the Gottman approach to this is three there's three stages. And the first one begins with if you imagine the structure of a relationship being shattered, it's the atonement phase is one image of it, it's almost like clearing away the rubble, clearing, clearing the work site again. It takes work to rebuild it. And so atonement is based on the idea that this violation has shattered the safety and security of the hurt partner. And so that partner needs to feel to begin to feel safe again, to begin to feel there's hope that the chaos can end and perhaps we can find our way back towards each other again. And so atonement is the accepting of responsibility, the experiencing out of remorse, and hopefully moving into compassion by the involved partner, that they really begin to feel for the partner that they betrayed and hurt. And their actions then fall in line with that, meaning that rather than being secret, they're now transparent. Rather than saying, that's my social media account, not yours, they they go out of their way to allow their partner not only to hear what they say about trust, but they try to verify where they were, what they did, who they talked to. These are boundaries that in many people's lives aren't the way they live day to day all the time. But extreme betrayal requires kind of an extreme kind of level of kind of honesty and transparency and verification. It's all meant to be in the service of creating safety again, that the hurt partner can begin to even consider trust again, because leaning in towards your partner, by definition, makes you vulnerable. And when you've been burned, it's it you you you question that. So atonement is about uh slowing it down, letting the dust settle, clearing the rubble, and beginning to have conversations that give that help reorient the disorientation of betrayal. It usually involves talking about what happened. Um how could this have happened? A lot of people often go into a lot of details at that point, trying to their brain, our nervous system is uh is at unrest until we understand things, until we can make and so this is a process of the hurt partner trying to understand it, and the involved partner hopefully stepping up, taking ownership and doing what it takes to create safety.

SPEAKER_00

Are details helpful? Are details helpful there, Bill?

SPEAKER_01

Well, so I've got a couple of answers for that. Details that help the the disorientation of the hurt partner are really helpful. Was it a golf trip? Oh, you mean I didn't think, you know, uh, was it really this, was it really that? The kind of details we shy away from at the very beginning are details about what actually happens sexually between partners. And it's not that we don't believe that the hurt partner, in a certain sense, does have a right to know everything he or she wants to know, but in that raw state, it it just it tends to add pain rather than soothe pain. And so we generally think of this that as until the partners are beginning to feel more of a bond, it's probably not a great idea to just kind of add more salt to the wound. But conceptually, the idea is uh you do have a right, I think, to ask for the truth about what your partner has been uh how they violated the the arrangement. Just not right away. But as soon as I say that, there are some cases that they seem to be need that to move forward. So there's exceptions to everything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And the one thing I might just add, if you don't mind, while what I'll tell my couples is just be careful, think about what you need to know. And remember, you can't ever unhear something. Right? So think very wisely about the questions you feel you need to know.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you can't unring the bell, right? And so that's a great point you made, though, Liz. So before you get into really some of the deeper explorations, just be sure you're mindful. Be sure you've actually sat down, thought about what questions you want to ask, what you really want to know, and what it's gonna be like once you hear it. Right. That's right. That's right. So as couples begin to move in a little bit, the atonement they they feel a little more stable. And then so the attunement phase then might be likened to a stage of beginning to build trust. I mean, typically when people have got gone down the path of infidelity, they have lost that communication, the ease of communication with each other. And they just no longer have this sense of that my partner's there for me, that I can count on them. And that's kind of the definition that we have, the general definition of trust is I know in my bones, I know you've got my back. Well, that's been broken and that needs to be rebuilt. So in this is the kind of the working phase of rebuilding communication, of how to talk about tough things, how to process fights, just how to share what's going on in your life so that your partner uh feels that they know you and you know them. And it it's uh it takes as long as it takes. But what I would say is that um linking the um atonement attune phases together, the Gottman data would say here's the two things you need to be careful about is when people get too dysregulated, their nervous system triggers, they flip their lids, they can't have healthy conversations. And in those moments, the emotions can lead them just to dig the hole deeper. So we need to help people learn about self-regulation. And this isn't just for the hurt partner, it's for both of them. And when people then do talk with each other in the Gottman world, we have this term called the four horsemen. And the four horsemen are four ways of communicating that just cause trouble in the stability and the predicted future of a relationship. And they're criticism that leads to defensiveness, and then an escalated form of criticism is a thing we call contempt. Contempt is now criticism, but it's you're talking down to your partner like they're an inferior, they're a subordinate of yours, and that breaks the real bond of a relationship, too. And then the fourth one is this thing called stonewalling, where we just shut down and shut them out. Couples are typically doing these around the discovery or the revelation of an affair. And at this phase and the attunement phase, we're trying to help them kind of learn new skill sets. It's beginning to put the foundation down again of a relationship.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And then the attachment phase.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so the attachment phase then is kind of you could think of it more like commitment. It's the the part of the building of relationship that says, you know, I chose you once, um, I choose you again today and every day. And I want to now, we want now to create the kind of relationship that we would feel safe and secure in. It typically has to have more communication and more safeguards against betrayal than they consciously did before. Um, so it, but it involves here um really deepening the friendship and really going back to like what is this relationship about? Like, what what are our dreams? Does our relationship together part of what gives us purpose in life? Um, and are we here because of the kids, or are we here because we love each other, or are we here in a broader societal thing? The the uh attachment thing really builds the bond again more deeply and more securely. And to do that, you not only have to learn the basics of talking about conflict, but you have to move into the idea of um uh self-disclosure a lot more. What we know is uh is when infidelity and dress a couple's life, they typically have become pretty conflict avoidant, but they've also become really avoidant of sharing their insides, of self-disclosure, of letting my partner really know what's happening inside of me. And so in this attachment phase in particular, it's about learning to be more vulnerable, to let your partner know the good, the bad, and the ugly about you, and to get comfortable talking about it.

SPEAKER_04

I think this is so helpful, uh Bill. I'm assuming some of this is uh it's not like, okay, now I'm now I've done that, now I've done that, but there's probably this process of okay, trust, but I'm a little bit suspicious, or I want to check their phone, or it's not like okay, I trust you now. It's it's building that takes time, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, they're not they they're kind of they're directional, but not completely linear. So, right, when you get through one stage, it doesn't mean you're not going back. You you are gonna probably loop back there at times. Uh so no matter how much you feel after the atonement work that you've done that you now can trust your partner and they're being transparent and verifying everything, doubts still come back in and data still happens that suggests that. And so, yeah, so you're never done with any stage. It you have to, I mean, in a very real sense, this now becomes part of the narrative of your life. And the issue is can you make a painful narrative into something that also gives you strength and like the the kind of knowledge that we overcame something that breaks many people, we have a we've have a strength and a love that can overcome even these really difficult things. That's a beautiful thought, too, isn't it? It is right. But it doesn't come without pain. No, no, yeah. And and one thing that one thing we haven't talked much about is that um when you look at like in a relationship, what happens in a relationship that leads to this thing? What I would argue is that there's a general pattern. It's not true for everybody, and it doesn't cover everything, but there's a general pattern of people begin to drift. They begin to drift further apart, they turn away from each other rather than bringing you the issues of my day or the things I'm worried about. I think, why bother? If I bring it to you, you're just going to tell me what to do. I mean, people stop approaching their partner, and in that state, they drift further apart.

Drift And Negative Stories About Partners

SPEAKER_01

And as they drift further apart, they begin to put on like negative glasses about who my partner is. They, in the research world, we call it negative sentiment override. I have I now have dark glasses on that distort everything that you say or do. And what I am, I'm biased now towards, I scan for negativity to confirm why I don't share things with you. And as people do that, they grow further and further apart. And as they do that, they lean in less, they don't turn, they don't turn towards their partner, they ignore bids. And before you know it, even the person who may be the eventual person who has an affair is further distant than they thought they that they were going to be.

SPEAKER_03

We'll be right back after this brief message.

SPEAKER_02

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_04

You know, um, what's your whole take on that with kids involved?

SPEAKER_01

So if you're saying what do you tell kids, um, you know, it's yeah, and you're implying it's different with a five-year-old than a 15-year-old or a 35-year-old kid.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, right. Do you do you even talk to yeah, younger kids or older kids, you keep it a secret, do you work on it together, do you share it?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so you know, where this comes up often is when let's say one there's

What To Tell Kids After Betrayal

SPEAKER_01

been an affair and one person says, I'm done, I want to get, I'm out of here. And the other one says, Okay, we we'll end up getting divorced, but you just can't tell the kids what happened. You have to tell the kids this was a mutual agreement that we had that just we just aren't friends anymore. And it's really hard for the hurt partner to buy that as a premise. So the general rule is you kind of it's individualized, it talk, it takes into consideration the developmental level. I find that especially when we're talking about preteens and teenage kids who live in the home, they often not only have sensed the tension between their parents or the distance between them, but they often have overheard phone calls uh or they've got they've got data in their head that they can't make sense out of either. So my general starting point, if they want to talk to their parents, is to start from the premise or the position of trying to understand what the kids already know or what the kids already believe. And certainly we don't want the kids to end up feeling responsible for any of this, but but they've often heard and seen way more than they should have. Well, that's yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Sometimes they're the ones that discover it, right?

SPEAKER_01

They are sometimes the ones that, yeah. And then they have that burden on them, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yep, yep. I appreciate you talking about the pattern and the drift, um, and then eventually just pulling further and further away and the why bother and the negative sentiment override. Um, so that's like the couple relationship. Is there any type of personality traits, Bill, that make some of us more vulnerable to crossing lines than others?

SPEAKER_01

You know, I don't know as much about that as I do the couples thing. So the couples thing generally says avoidance creates uh uh an atmosphere where people don't feel close, they feel lonely, and therefore they look look out. You could certainly know, and it it and the the cultures have the world has changed since you know 50 years ago when men were more having affairs more than women. Now their data is that it's really evened out and leveled

Vulnerability And Self Justifying Choices

SPEAKER_01

off, and there's some data to suggest women have affairs more than men. Uh there's a there's a lot of different data out there. But when people don't feel in general, when they don't feel bonded, where they don't feel close, connected, loved, valued, I think that they they are more at risk of it. And then there's still the gender-based thing, though, that people grow up in families where they're taught that they're entitled to that. No harm, no foul, it's not cheating if you don't get caught. This is just what men do, or now this is just what women do. That um so I don't know that, I mean, we could use words like narcissism, you know, to fit that. And but what I do think the the underlying process that happens is whatever we call people who move in that direction, they generally speaking engage in a whole lot of self-justification. They explain why it's okay in this case, even if I don't believe in it, in this case it's different. You know, I'm suffering in a in a unique way, um, no harm, no foul. Um, and and that idea that um if my partner doesn't find out, it doesn't hurt them is a fairly common thought process that people have.

SPEAKER_00

That is very true. I wanted to ask you about that. What if what if that you had an affair, a secret, and you knew your partner would never find out if you didn't disclose? Are you a fan of that, that person taking it to their grave to not cause harm to their partner?

SPEAKER_01

So as soon as you said that, my brain asked the question, at what cost? I mean, every everything we do has a cost one way or another. Some people are tormented and feel a lot of guilt and shame

Confession Versus Keeping It Secret

SPEAKER_01

about a betrayal. Other people feel that it's I'm privileged and it's just my right to do it. So um, what we do know is, and I think there's pretty much agreement on this, when there's suspicion, when there's real suspicion on one partner's part, it's then not, and then it's like gaslighting to just deny them continuously and say it didn't happen, and if you think I'm doing it, probably means you're thinking about it. I mean, you know, we we agree that somehow flipping the blame and the responsibility on the other person is a kind of a pathological thing. Um very much so.

SPEAKER_00

But yeah. Yeah, very much so. At what cost to share the truth, also? You know, that's well, right. Sometimes I think that's a real burden for the one that was involved. It's like, hmm, maybe that person should take it to their grave. I don't I don't know. I don't know that.

SPEAKER_01

And there are yes. No, there are people who I think who have said, if you cheat, I mean, I've heard people, if you cheat, don't tell me.

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01

And she's they say that before they think it's happened. But there are people who really are distressed that they had to hear it. They would rather it be kept secret, or if especially if it's a one one-time event and that it's like on a business trip or something. But in general, I mean, those you could argue that people in that position aren't as likely to show up for therapy about this. So, as a therapist, I mean, we're generally on the side of honesty and transparency. On the other hand, it's not my right or privilege to say you have to do this. I can't force people to disclose things. That's right.

SPEAKER_00

It's another way to do that. Uh-huh. Pardon me, Bill?

SPEAKER_01

What was that? No, I but I do think we do think this. If you disclose something, it's really a great idea to disclose the whole thing. When people disclose or get caught in an affair and they admit to it, and they don't tell about the one they had six months ago or two years ago, and that comes up again. Somehow it comes out, it just knocks the pins out and it breaks the whole thing all over again.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And that's probably even a little bit harder to recover from, I imagine. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01

For sure. Especially to the extent you felt your partner was really genuine and honest.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. And now we start all over or go backwards. Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

A lot of people ask, you know, is it an emotional affair or a sexual affair, a one-night stand? Um, is one harder to recover from than the other? Do you have any thoughts on that, Bill?

SPEAKER_01

So the stock answer should be it's it's different for everybody, and a betrayal is a betrayal. And the the most painful betrayal out there is the one you're experiencing. Given that, though, I do think there's a difference between, for instance, a couple that I've seen where um one of the partners had an affair 15

Emotional Versus Sexual Betrayal Pain

SPEAKER_01

years ago, and and then it was a business trip kind of thing, and then he continued to do that over the next 15 years, twice a year on business trips. That changes it from I was out partying, I had a little bit too much to drink. It changes it from that to I premeditatedly did this over and over and over again. And the no harm, no foul kind of rationale um didn't carry, didn't play very well to the hurt partner in this case.

SPEAKER_00

That spoke of his character, right? Not just a slip.

SPEAKER_01

That would that would be a way to look at it, yes.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. That that makes me wonder then, Bill, is there research on this? You know, once a cheater, always a cheater. You know, if I cheated once, or is there any any research on that? Like, okay, I've I kind of had a taste of what that is like, and man, that was the worst thing ever, versus, huh, that was interesting, that was curious, and I and even if I'm trying to work through it, you know, I still have wandering eyes, things like that.

SPEAKER_01

You know, I don't I think there probably is a positive trend. I don't know the research on that, but I if I'm when I'm thinking when you talked and cases come to mind, there are people who've kind of who've been involved in it, who I've seen who've been involved in infidelity, and after they see the pain that it caused, they go, they go back and say, that's not the person I want to be. And those people, though, they have remorse not just because they betrayed their partner, but they have remorse because they betrayed themselves. This is not the kind of human being I want to be. I don't believe in this, you didn't deserve that, and I want to be a better person. Again, other people don't have that gut-wrenching kind of internal reaction. And it it seems much more a matter of opportunity than um from their point of view than any view of that um I did something that's really that bad.

SPEAKER_04

Well, sure.

SPEAKER_01

And I think social media and all that makes the line blurry and makes it all so much easier, too. Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_00

How how so?

SPEAKER_01

How does social media just as you experience deeper levels of connection and different types of connection, whether it's sending, you know, photographs or pictures or whatever, it it soft it it moves the line. There's a there's a some data on this thing about the the triangle kind of truth that argues that if you can convince people to betray something, um do a minor betrayal on something that isn't that important, you've just moved them to be willing to make uh another betrayal just a little more profound. And eventually one betra a small betrayal leads to a medium betrayal leads to a bigger betrayal, and you've justified it. Self-justification is a super powerful model.

SPEAKER_00

Sure would be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You know, in your experience, how how long does healing typically take going through these three phases of recovery? Is there a length of time?

SPEAKER_01

So well, there's not a really a length of time, but the facil it's facilitated greatly by the involved partner really being genuine and um remorseful and and not just remorse, that compassion. When I feel you really see my hurt and that moves you, I'm willing to move in again,

Healing Time And Daily Connection Rituals

SPEAKER_01

and that really gets the whole ball going. I mean, there are couples who stay stuck in the starting blocks on that for months and months because they think they're making progress and then they feel their partner's not sensitive to them or doesn't care or say, you know, isn't it about time you get over this? You know, we've been doing this for eight months now or whatever. So getting started on the right path is really the key. And then to the extent that they can really you know, what we know is connection has to be about more than just like dealing. Dealing with conflict well, that in the Gottman approach, really we we work, we work so much at helping couples build their friendship and their connection again, because learning to fight well or to fight fair doesn't necessarily make people closer. We have to help them find ways in their daily living to feel more present and seen and connected with each other. And small moments, small moments, big results like transition times. If we look at transition times, what happens between you and your partner when you open your eyes in the morning? Is there a moment of connection, or do you say, I can't talk until I have coffee? When somebody leaves the house or you know, goes into their office, is there a departure ritual or not? And most significantly, I think, this is the most important one in my mind, is when you're both back together at the end of the day, what happens? There's a study that was done at the Sloan Center in UCLA that looked at that and looked at um dual career millennial couples when both partners are under the same roof again at the end of the day. What happens in the first two minutes? And the first two minutes generally predicted the tone for the whole evening. Does it feel like you're glad to see me? Do I matter to you? Or are you just handing off one of the kids to me and saying, I'm out now, I need to, you know, that so those small moments can have big, powerful impacts if they give the message that you matter to me, and I'm really glad we're here together. And that's the general theme that couples need to feel safe and connected.

SPEAKER_00

I love, I love you hear you talk about the look of forgiveness. And I suppose eventually, Bill, there's probably a time and a place where maybe the hurt person does agree to cease bringing it up. Does there need to be an ending point? Or will it just be ongoing and catch us off guard again? This topic again coming up.

SPEAKER_01

So I think any kind of trauma, and this is certainly qualifies as trauma, lives lives within your nervous system forever. The question is, is there enough of a bond? Has your partner done enough to kind of become a safe person again for you? And then, if I go back to that Bidot idea, do you create a path and walk a path that says this is the choice I'm making now over and over and over again? And um uh Carol Rusbald is a researcher on commitment who had a theory called the investment and commitment theory. And she found that commitment was facilitated when people's needs are being met, when they've really intertwined their lives. And when they don't do this thing, she called negative comparisons. When we, again, when you are with your partner or not, and you are out socially, and you look at somebody else and you say, now that's the kind of person I deserve. That's what she calls a negative comp. And when people do that, they're on the trajectory towards betrayal. When they don't do that, and rather than that, they learn to appreciate who they have and what they've done together in their life. And that usually means going back and remembering the beauty, remembering the love story you once had, rather than just allowing it to be shattered in pieces on the floor. It's kind of recreating the love story. Um, I can't remember the name of the Japanese art of putting back like broken cups together with gold um etchings. Yeah, theater in the cracks. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It is possible to do that, but it takes work.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So, Bill, I'm curious, what advice would you give couples who want to affair proof their relationship? What do they need to be doing?

SPEAKER_01

So this sounds like um I'm not sure if this sounds right, but it's to avoid avoidance. That avoidance is that thing that begins to insidiously move us further apart. And as we fill in the gaps about why it's I'm entitled to do that, why you treat me in such a way that I

How To Affair Proof A Marriage

SPEAKER_01

deserve that peace, let's say. Um, when people cross a certain line, a certain threshold, they no longer invest. And as soon as you're not investing in creating the path today, that you be you become at risk again and you become more vulnerable to the smile at Starbucks or to uh something you see on social media, or just the idea that there's there's gotta be somebody out there better for me, there's gotta be somebody who would appreciate my humor better. That's what what Russell called negative comps. And as soon as people get to negative comps, it's not too late, but if they don't take action, uh the trajectory is already set. So avoid avoidance. And part of that then is look at the small ways that have big impacts, like the first two minutes when you're home at the end of the day. Like can you can you make a habit of noticing something that you actually admire about your partner and then not only notice it, but say something about it, and not only say something, but then confirm that they actually heard it in the way you intended it. It's a simple little idea. And what we know is couples who, as couples are coming together, they do this all the time. They see things they love, they say something, they give compliments, they give appreciations, and then we get too busy and don't do it so much. So part of it is just going back to making your partner know feel seen and heard and letting them know what is special about them to you.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Wow, I love that. Making them helping them understand, yeah, why you feel the way, why they are so special to you, fondness and admiration, yeah, these little little things. Yeah, small things often, as the Gottman say. That's right.

SPEAKER_01

Big impact.

SPEAKER_04

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

And then one last thing would be it goes along with the avoidance, on some regular basis, have some process where you sit down and you make sure to say, hey, is there anything we need to talk about? Not just the kids' schedule or what's going on at work, but what's happening between us or more poignantly, what's not happening between us. Yeah, yep.

SPEAKER_03

We'll be right back after this brief message.

SPEAKER_02

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_04

What about counsel for I'm thinking friends, um, you know, work friends, those between, you know, there's some personalities that are just like friendly personalities, and then maybe they come across as flirtatious. What do you where's the line or can you help give some advice for those listening between a line, friendship, and then that emotional intimacy where they need to be aware of?

SPEAKER_01

So that's a super hard one to um detect. But what the word that

Loyalty Boundaries With Friends

SPEAKER_01

popped into my mind when you said that is loyalty. And there's not a whole lot, there's not as much data out about loyalty as there is about trust and commitment. But loyalty, just like in some ways, like compassion is an active thing, I would argue loyalty is an active process. And when you see your partner under duress, do you feel moved not just to feel badly for them, but to come to the rescue to stand up for them, to protect them? And as I'm thinking about that word, what does loyalty look like when they're not there? That means you you don't talk badly about them to other people in particular. Um, you don't break, this is a breaking of an agreement, right? If it's my understanding that you don't say bad things about me to your friends or your family and you do it, that is a violation of, that is a breaking of the agreement. We're back to the definition of betrayal now. And to have a be able to have an honest conversation about what seems okay and what doesn't. Um, but there's a tremendous tolerance some people have, that you can have friends in all kinds of situations and spend a lot of time with them and it doesn't threaten me. Other people seem very like hair-triggered by that. But typically, those people, somewhere in their narrative of life and their history, they have felt kind of this is a dangerous situation. It's either happened to me earlier in life or in different relationships, or it happened to my mother, or it happened to somebody I know that that friendship is is uh colored with the more of an active betrayal component.

SPEAKER_04

You have to talk about it. Talking about, and that's the key. I think, you know, hey, is it is it okay to go to lunch with someone of the opposite of the say of just up going to lunch or at the gym? You know, the gym. It feels like this notorious place of working out the hormone, everything's you know, these different things are going on inside the body, and then I see this person and skimpy outfit. We see each other every morning, you know, those types of things. You just have to be so careful.

SPEAKER_01

You do, and and Shirley Glass in the book Not Just Friends would say exactly that, that you need to be not just careful internally, but relationally, you have to talk about what kind of guideposts you put up, what kind of fences you put up. That and when the fences begin to change, when you um when you begin to create more of a bound uh windows to walls, I think she called it. When you open a window to someone else as you're putting a wall up with your partner, you're on the way, right? And so that's the what you and nobody can say exactly what that looks like other than by conversation.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, goodness, you have so much to share. Bill, we want to make sure people can find you. Of course, you have the book, your new book that just came out, The Healing and Shram of Infidelity. And where else, my friend, can we find you? And we'll put that up on our show notes.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so I have a website, you know, and you can just look up my name for that. Or um I'm actually happy to give an email out, which is just my name, Bill Bumbery, B-U-M-B-E-R-O-Y at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_00

Perfect. Thank you so much. Oh, yeah, so much, so much good rich resources, my friend, and insights. How many years have you worked just with with couples? Has that been your whole practice?

SPEAKER_01

Has it been you know what well it hasn't been, but it's been long enough to be. I shifted to become a couples therapist probably in like 1989, so uh a long time ago. And it's and it's really been um the the part of my practice that I kind of get the most meaning out of and and feel that when you can help a couple find their connection again, it ripples not just to their family, but to the world. Happy couples do good things for and in the world. Oh, so true.

SPEAKER_00

There's nothing better. I agree with you.

SPEAKER_04

Man, Bill, you're such a well of wisdom. We go on and on. But hey, be before we let you go, there's two questions that we uh we love to ask all of our guests. The first one in honor of the name of our podcast, Stronger Marriage Connection. What do you feel like is a key to a stronger marriage connection?

SPEAKER_01

So this is kind of an incidental moment that happened to me, but um a few years ago, I was going through a box in the basement and I found the prom picture that Kathy and I had when I was 18 and she was 16.

Takeaways Hugs And Finding Help

SPEAKER_01

And seeing that picture um did this emotional thing that reminded me of the beauty we once had. And that's what I saw rather than the fact that I used to have hair and things like that, you know. It so what that led me to think is that we need to remember the love story we had, that we came together for good reasons, not to talk ourselves out of the difficult moments that we have, but to remind ourselves that we are creating this path with a good human being and a person who we really chose for good reasons at one time. And can we find that person of ourselves again? And we can we choose our partner again to continue this the next chapter. I was gonna say the last chapter, but who knows when that is. But the the next chapter of our life. And and seeing the beauty in your partner is I think it's depends on what lenses you use. I think it's available for most couples.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I love that. It I think as Government often say, find the glory in your relationship or marital story uh and reliving that. And it's just the feelings come flooding back as you re-remember what we rehearse.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you're not just remembering the facts of the story, you're re-experiencing the emotion that you once had.

SPEAKER_04

Love it. Yeah. Uh, Bill, what about a take-home message for our listeners today? We call it takeaway of the day. Is there something you want our listeners to remember?

SPEAKER_01

You know, this is what I ask almost everyone to remember and to try, because you can do it so easily, is to pay attention to the first two minutes that you're under the same roof together. Add this one that says pay attention to what happens in the last three minutes before your eyes close, and you you know, you hit the pillow, that's important too, to really just kind of remember those bondedness moments that are available. And if you if you do happen to still see beauty in your partner and things you value about them, find your voice. Say something about it, do something. And if you're not good with words, do rather than doing a um 2.5-second hug, which is kind of about what most hugs look like, try a 20-second hug or a 25-second hug because that changes it from a hug to an embrace, and it can actually activate your nervous system and help you secrete oxytocin, um, this bonding kind of uh ingredient inside of all of our bodies. Do these small, simple things on a regular basis.

SPEAKER_04

Well said, well said. Liz, what about you?

SPEAKER_00

I was trying to, I have copious notes here, and I think I finally found the one I was thinking of that with the herd and the involved, and when it comes to recovery, when I see that my pain touches you, I start, I can start to rebuild some safety and some trust. When I see my pain in your face, I just think that's so beautiful. Never heard it said that way, I've never shared it that way. I love it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. It it's talking about attachment injuries. It actually comes from a very famous um couples person, Sue Johnson. Um, and that's those are the words that she used about helping people feel seen and heard in their moments of despair and desperation. And it's not just a head thing, it's an emotional thing, right?

SPEAKER_00

I love that you've studied both Gottman and Sue Johnson. I noticed that. Um, Dave, what about you, my friend? What's the golden nugget you're taking away from our time today with Dr. Bill Bumberry?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, such a great uh hour and I hear dealt with us and so much uh wisdom. I a little one of the things, well, the cluster of emotions, I've never never heard that. I haven't heard this minor betrayal that you talked about. These these little ones that you say, okay, if you're willing to do this, then maybe yeah, you're willing to do this, this little kind of slippery uh slope as they go down this this trail, I guess, this path of of infidelity. So just for listeners to be aware of that internal stirring, that feeling um be aware of it. But when you have that for another person, where you have to do something with that. You can either feel it and follow it or feel it in uh internally. Yeah, and think about okay, yeah, what's the right thing to do, the better things to do, what my wife, their spouse think. Uh message.

SPEAKER_01

There's a very old book called uh Mistakes Were Made, but not by me. And it's a kind of a social psychology thing rather than a couples therapy thing, but it talks about that pyramid of small lies and self-deceptions just lead to bigger and bigger and bigger ones. And they were actually applying it at that time to the uh Nixon administration and the the way things happen in a political sense. Um, but it applies to couples too.

SPEAKER_04

Man, stay away from those little thanks. Wow, Bill. Hey, thanks again for making time to come on and share so much with it. We surely appreciate all that you have you've done and continue to do for couples.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, you guys make it easy to just talk, and I appreciate your kind of uh thinking of me and all the kind of uh questions and insight that you guys added to it too.

SPEAKER_04

Uh thank you. Yeah. All right, friends, that does it for us. We'll see you next time on another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection podcast.

SPEAKER_00

That's right. And remember, it's the small and simple things that create a stronger marriage connection. Take good care of yourself and joining us today.

SPEAKER_04

Hey, do us a favor and take a second to subscribe to our podcast at the Utah Marriage Commission YouTube channel at Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the channel. Leave a comment and share this episode with the friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at stronger marriagewise and Facebook at stronger marriagewide. So we can share with us with our show next. If you want even more resources to improve your marriage relationship connecting, visit strongermaritage.org, where you'll find free workshops, e-port, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys, and each episode of Stronger Marriage Connecting is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Merrige Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, Rex Plant, and the team at Utah State University. And you, our audience, you make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions, and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Merrige Commission.