Stronger Marriage Connection
It's often said that marriage takes work. The Stronger Marriage Connection podcast wants to help because a happy marriage is worth the effort. USU Family Life Professor Dr. Dave Schramm and Clinical Psychologist Dr. Liz Hale talk with experts about the principles and practices that will enhance your commitment, compassion, and emotional connection.
More than ever before, marriages face obstacles, from the busyness of work and daily hassles to disagreements and digital distractions. It's no wonder couples sometimes drift apart, growing resentful, lonely, and isolated.
The Utah Marriage Commission invites you to listen and discover new ways to strengthen and protect your marriage connection today!
The opinions, findings, conclusions, and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.
Stronger Marriage Connection
"Stop Doing That! It's Driving Me Crazy?" Misophonia in Marriage | Thomas Phelan | 195
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Ordinary sounds like chewing or breathing can trigger real fight-or-flight, and that reaction can quietly strain closeness at home. We talk with Dr. Thomas Phelan about what misophonia feels like, why it can spiral into resentment, and how we can respond with no-fault compassion and practical plans.
• what mesophonia is and how it differs from everyday annoyance
• why mouth sounds are common triggers and why reactions can include rage and panic
• how repeated triggers can create resentment, distance, and dread around family dinner
• the “second reaction” spiral of shame, blame, and negative stories after a trigger
• how we start the conversation without blaming, including using written resources first
• negotiated accommodations that reduce triggers without avoiding your spouse
• the ABCD model and “five-second plan” to interrupt the reaction fast
• why “no-fault” thinking becomes the heart of therapy for couples and families
• the key to stronger connection: shared one-on-one fun
Happy Hacks: 101 Science-Backed Ways to Boost Happiness, Reduce Stress, and Build a More Meaningful Life.
Available now starting at 99¢ on Amazon and Dave's Book Store
Written by Dr. Dave Schramm, this practical and uplifting new book offers simple, research-based strategies to help you build greater happiness, strengthen resilience, reduce
The opinions, findings, conclusions, and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.
Visit our site for FREE relationship resources and regular giveaways:
Strongermarriage.org
Podcast.stongermarriage.org
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@StrongerMarriageLife
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@strongermarriagelife
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/strongermarriagelife/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/strongermarriage/
Facebook Marriage Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/770019130329579
Dr. Dave Schramm:
Dr. Liz Hale:
When Sounds Hurt
SPEAKER_04What happens when an ordinary sound, chewing, breathing, sniffing, or throat clearing, creates an extraordinary emotional reaction? In this episode, Dr. Thomas Phelan joins us to unpack the often misunderstood condition of mesophonia and why it can become especially challenging in marriage and family relationships. We explore what happens in the brain when someone is triggered, how repeated triggers can lead to resentment and distance, and how couples can respond without blaming, shaming, or walking on eggshells. Dr. Phalan also shares practical tools for managing triggers in the moment and helping couples live and eat together a little more peacefully. Dr. Thomas Phalan is a clinical psychologist, author, filmmaker, and educator who has spent decades helping children, adults, and families. He is best known as the creator of the internationally recognized parenting program 123 Magic, which has sold more than 2.5 million copies, drawing on both his professional expertise and his own experience with mesophonia. His newest book, Stop That Chewing, Mesophonia, When Ordinary Sounds Trigger Extraordinary Distress, offers practical strategies for individuals, couples, and families struggling with sound sensitivity. When he's not writing or teaching, he enjoys music, painting, gardening, exercise, and the outdoors. We hope you enjoy the show.
Meet Dr. Thomas Phelan
SPEAKER_04Hey friends, welcome to another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection Podcast. I'm Dr. Dave here at Utah State University, alongside Dr. Liz Hell, our clinical psychologist. We're aiming to bring you the very best that we have in research and resources, along with a few tips and tools to help you create the marriage of your dreams. Okay, Liz. Liz, Liz, Liz. I've been counting down the days for today's guest because I have to ask you, Liz, does it drive you nuts to hear people chewing or crunching or chewing with their mouth open or slurping, making other noises? Does that drive you nuts, Liz?
SPEAKER_00I do have a sensitivity on my ears, but because of that, I'm also very, very aware of my own crunching and chewing, and I'm, you know, hesitant. Like I'm annoying other people.
SPEAKER_04I am as well. My my wife, uh, our daughters, it drives them bonkers. They're so eager for this episode to come out, so they can hear more from the expert today. I remember years ago, one of our daughters uh she looked it up online and discovered the word is it mesophonia. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. And today's guest is here to tell us all about it and he uh and how we can spill over into our marriages and our relationships and what we can do about it. Welcome to the show, Dr. Thomas Phalan. Well, thank you very much for having me.
SPEAKER_05I'm delighted to meet both of you.
SPEAKER_00Likewise.
SPEAKER_04Oh, the pleasure is ours. I'm almost starstruck uh here, Liz. So I have to start by sharing what a huge, huge, huge, huge fan I am of Dr. Phalan's parenting book. One, two, three magic, sold over two and a half million copies, one of the most popular books in the parenting uh world. So that's where I first heard about him. And that book helped us as parents tremendously. So a quick shout out for his parenting book, my friends. One, two, three magic. It is uh outstanding, truly, truly helped us through. We had four young kids, uh, Dr. Tom, and it was helped us. So let's
Mesophonia Beyond Simple Annoyance
SPEAKER_04let's tackle this mesophonia. All right, let's start with the with the basics. Uh, Tom, can you tell us exactly what is mesophonia and how is it different from simply being annoyed, you know, by the sound of someone chewing, or you know, the breathing, the stiffening, or or clearing their throat, because it might bug some people, but for others, it absolutely like irritates them, gets under their skin, kind of triggers them in a fact. Can you kind of set the record straight about our topic today?
SPEAKER_05Sure. Yeah, mesophonia is an aversion to sounds, but 62% of the time these are mouth sounds, and they can be chewing. They can also be other stuff you mentioned, Dave, and that's uh breathing, uh, clearing your throat, uh coughing, doing a number of uh different things. And the thing with the misophonia is for somebody with misophonia is a big deal, it's not just a little deal. So when you hear it, you you're not indifferent to it as many people are. It's just chewing, it's just sniffling, but you're not indifferent to it. Uh, and it makes you irritated. And you can have a full-blown fight or flight, or fight and flight response that uh has elements of not only uh uh rage, but also panic. It's extremely uh uncomfortable. And you can imagine if you're sitting with someone that you are married to at the dinner table, and one of you is in a state of rage or panic, something's gonna happen. It's not good.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's so crazy. My wife even will go to the movies, the sound of someone, yeah, chewing their popcorn really loud, you know, right next to her or something, she'll have to switch seats or something. She's like, I can't, I can't do, you know, do this, or my daughter, if I'm chewing, you know, nuts or something, she actually has to leave the room, or I'll try to be self-conscious and I will like try and chew softly or go into another room because it does it and create it creates this anxiety and like ah, she can't she can't stand it. So it's dark equivalent.
SPEAKER_05Go ahead. I said popcorn is a classic, and also at the movies is people chewing their stupid ice.
SPEAKER_04Oh, ice, yes, the ice that crunch. That's another one it is, is the ice that drives them, drives them uh nuts. I'm curious, just statistics, anything on this? You know, what uh what percent is it someone that you can develop over time? Are we kind of born with this?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, usually the onset that from what we can tell so far looks like it happens uh between ages eight to twelve. So a childhood onset, and of course, that you usually means that the initial trigger provider is going to be a uh family member. Uh for some reason us dads seem to get picked on more often than anybody else. I don't know what what we're doing. It irritates people more than anything else. Uh there's certainly genetic components to it, but it's a child, often a childhood onset, uh like that, and often a you know, mouth or food-related thing. My onset was listening to my dad eat ice cream at the end of a meal, but he wouldn't eat the ice cream, he would slurp it and gobble it and chew it and just about spin it across so gross. I wanted to murder him. My wife said, You can't put murder your father in the book. That's disrespectful. It changed the wording a little bit.
SPEAKER_00But it was so it's a severe reaction versus annoyance. Is that what you is that what you're saying? Um, Tom, all right. Yeah. Well, you got the unique experience and perspective on being both a clinical psychologist and someone who experiences misopality on yourself. What does that reaction feel like on the inside? What what do you wish your spouse or loved ones understood about what's happening in those moments? Please please describe how it's different than just being annoyed.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. It's it it's first of all, you've got the the the rage and the panic that you have to control. And then your second thought, what I call the second reaction some of the time, is that what's wrong with me that I'm doing this? And so but you're also mad at somebody else who's the trigger producer, and so you're thinking, what's wrong with you, you you pig, you you rude person? How can you do this to somebody else? But they don't really know what they're they're doing. So, and I I think in answer to your question, the the the word I like the best, what does it feel like inside is you are trapped. You're trapped in a social cage, and the worst thing that could happen, well, it it's already happening, but the second worst thing, or the next worst thing is everybody's gonna look at you like you are nuts. This is really silly, this is really stupid. You must be off your rocker.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I remember early on, Tom, it was almost uh when when I didn't like really understand as like a real thing, I would almost egg them on a little bit. That's like the worst thing I you know, I would sometimes, you know, too on purpose or something loud, and then we'll be like that. Not they would get angry and then I'd be like, oh, okay, this really, really, really does bother them. And this can be really tough and complicated because in in marriage, you know, the person making the triggering sound is often the person you love the very most, but they're driving you nuts. So why can a spouse's chewing or they're breathing tree? Such an intense reaction, Tom. And then and then how can couples keep that reaction from becoming um, you know, oh my goodness, get over it. You're just too sensitive, or versus, you know, you don't you don't care about me. If you really cared about me, right? It's
Resentment Risk At Family Dinner
SPEAKER_04this can actually become a struggle in relationships.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Well, let's start with the the last question first, because this is a this is where a little bit of cognitive therapy comes in. Uh, and you know, you're you're kind of specializing in the marriage field, and one of the biggest cognitive distortions, and that this took me a while to get used to after I got married, is when you're getting married, you're getting married, and you don't have too many really difficult times. And I think for a lot of couples, the first crisis is the first time you really get mad at the other person. It has to happen sooner or later. And if in my mind I make a connection between if I am this mad at you, like really mad, I must not love you, and we must not have a bad marriage. Those cognitive distortions have to be dealt with. And there's certainly part of Misophonia. Uh you know, it's a it's a you know two two-way street. Uh, so that has to be dealt with. The other thing is like where it comes from, I don't think we really know. I have a chapter in the book on competitive eating. I think this goes way back to our primitive uh human-like ancestors who had situations, especially in time of food shortage, where they had to fight for food. And what I call competitive eating was actually an adaptive skill, but it wasn't pretty. I push you out of the way, so I get that last part of the hyena carcass out on the planet, you don't, you know, and then and throw rocks at somebody else uh to keep them away. Now we we're sitting at civilized dinner tables now, we're not throwing rocks at pushing people anymore, at least we're not supposed to. Uh, but my theory is that there's something in there for certain people. We have genes that kind of code for that competitive eating thing being right underneath the surface, maybe combined with auditory sensitivities in our, you know, in our brain that uh make it make it bad. Because um certainly some people, when you got it, you got it, and when you don't, I don't you may get it, uh, but it's such an odd thing. And I think that at least makes some sense in terms of explaining.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I'm I'm curious then, Tom, can mesophonia ever start actually changing how you feel about the person? Not just the serum, but the person now. In other words, can repeated triggering begin to create uh resist resentment, emotional distance, even um affects attraction. Like I'm not attracted to this bird because of this note, they're driving me nuts. And if so, how do couples keep that from happening?
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I think the answer is yes, it can. Because, you know, we've got a we've got a I call it a myth in our society about family dinner. Family dinner is a time where you get together, it's loving, you bond, everybody shares their day. Isn't this sweet? Well, it doesn't work like that a lot of the time. Kids fight like crazy, mom and dad, you're gonna just get their bosses, both yelled at them during the day. Everybody's crabbing and they take it out at each other. Now imagine you have this family dinner, it's complicated now by when you chew your food. I am irritated not only by the sound, but by but by the movements of your face, mouth, and cheeks. Every night I'm gonna look at you and stay in love with you when you do that to me. Now you don't know what you're doing. But yes, the answer is it can be a real corker. And and the and and the the the first thing about misophonia, which is partly what this whole show is about, is you gotta understand it. Because that that person who's chewing, they're not trying to aggravate me. And I'm not trying to be a crazy person. But that's what I react to. Oh, it's a it's a horrible combination.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So tough. Wow.
SPEAKER_00And then comes that second reaction that you speak of, Tom, the thoughts and emotions that come after that trigger. Why why can that second reaction sometimes be even more damaging than the sound itself, especially in these very close connections?
SPEAKER_05It's one that you you take home with you. You know, you people human beings, no doubt, we think way too much. If we could just turn our brains off, be lovely. But I haven't found that switch yet. I don't know if you have. So you go through a meal like that where you got mad at this person that you love, and now you're lying in bed thinking, what's wrong with me? Stupid. They were just joined. I was just watching them, and I'm a madman, I want to kill him. That doesn't make any sense. Um, and so you're down on yourself. You have two problems, what's wrong with me? And they like you were just saying, tomorrow night I'm gonna eat dinner with you again. I don't want to come in with you again. What am I gonna do?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's we'll be right back after this brief message.
Start The Talk Without Blame
SPEAKER_01And we're back. Let's dive right in.
SPEAKER_04So hard. So walk us through this. I mean, let's get really practical here, Tom. How should a husband or wife actually talk about misophonia with their spouse without blaming or shaming them? I mean, what what might a healthy conversation sound like when one person is essentially saying, you know, that sound is really triggering? And the other person might be thinking, I'm just eating. I how am I how are we supposed to even live together, right? Because we're all gonna we're gonna be eating forever. So how does the how do you approach this conversation?
SPEAKER_05Well, I think uh if it's the first time I vote for uh a lot of times not face to face because um you're you know you're in a marriage business. You know how people, when you sit down, you talk to somebody about something, especially if you don't pick the right time, it's not good, you can get into an argument so fast because you more than anybody else in the world know how to trigger the other person. Do it accidentally. That's no way to start your conversation about misophonia. So I'm a big fan of uh electronic uh communication to start with, or the transmission of other things that have been written about misophonia, like a book or a website, or go to Duke University or read Rachel Sonelli's book or Tom Dozier or something like that, instead of me being the the messenger to you. Because if I'm the messenger to you, it looks too much like or smells too much like I'm defending myself and accusing you. And that's not the thing to do. But I think um conversations can follow after that. Uh but the first thing you really have to do what you were what you were talking about, you have to somehow get that understanding about this weird thing, it's just come into our lives. Not through anybody's fault, but it's come into our lives, and now we gotta figure out how to handle it, and you're gonna feel accused, I feel accused, I'm gonna feel like a nut. And uh that's no way to the mental state to be in d during a conversation.
SPEAKER_00So that's an interesting idea to start with um texting or emailing something, yeah, right, about your thoughts about it. And then what about inside? What can I say to myself that perhaps just brings back kind of a a normal normal normalcy to how I'm feeling, just so irritable, enraged.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00How do I talk to myself? What can I say?
SPEAKER_05We have uh two parts to the cognitive behavior therapy. One, Liz, you're talking about what do you how do you think about yourself, and then how do you think about other people? And one I think what the bottom line where you want to wind up with yourself is okay, I've got this neurological auditory sensitivity that is really weird. Okay. And uh I've got some company. We could be talking about prevalence of five, ten, fifteen percent, uh, maybe something like that. So I'm not the only one who has it. Uh, but I'm basically then a normal person with a oddity, if you want, or a strange quirk. Now some people say, well, then I still got a strange quirk, don't I? And they say, well, yeah, but let me give you some more data. What percentage of the population could qualify for um a DSM 5 diagnosis? And I think it's almost 50%. So it's like, okay, instead of thinking of yourself as a a weirdo with a quirk, think of yourself, you just joined the club. There's all of us normal people with quirks. My yours is OCD and speak to the phonemia, somebody else's is uh, you know, something else. And so it's not really so bad. It's just that's the business that we're all in. Uh and then we have to teach people how to practice that thinking about yourself uh so that you you know calm down and don't lay in bed at night feeling horribly guilty or crying or depressed or beating yourself up and then how we think about
Build A Dinner Plan That Works
SPEAKER_05our partners too.
SPEAKER_00So the um the accommodations that are that could be helpful, like background noise, changing seats, headphones, taking a short break. When can avoidance actually make the the problem even worse between relationships?
SPEAKER_05And that's and and what you you're the nail you're hitting on the head here is one of the basic uh difficulties with treatment of misophonia is too much avoidance can be uh a bad thing. So you start avoiding your spouse. Totally, totally that would be a bad thing to do. Uh but reducing the strength of the triggers, some legitimate avoidance, uh, and so on. So if we go back to Dave's question about so I I I sit down and have this enraged thing with you at the dinner table, how should I handle that? Well, you should have handled that before you sit down at the dinner table, is is the answer. You should have had your initial electronic conversation, then you should have talked about it otherwise, and then you should have negotiated. My wife and I, for example, uh one of our tricks is to uh put on either uh I put on some of this old pleasant music, you know, like elevator music during dinner, uh, or we'll put on the Cubs baseball game, or we will eat separately but in adjoining rooms. And so and that's negotiated beforehand. And she's good about it. If she has some really crunchy crackers, she'll say, Can you hear these from in there? Or yes, or whatever. But those things, because you don't want an unpleasant surprise, which in Dave's example would be happening. You sit down and now you're you're really mad. That shouldn't be happening. That should have been anticipated and dealt with by one of the uh ways of dealing with your triggers, what we call it trigger management. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Plenty ahead of that, okay?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, let's give dive in a little bit, uh, Dr. Trom, as far as giving our listeners something uh, you know, they can use, let's say, starting, they were here listening to podcasts and they want to do something tonight. First, is okay, you're the conversation electron, I could, and then let's talk about this. And then you teach practical strategies such as your um ABCD tools, the five-second plan. Uh, love the book, by the way. If someone is sitting across from their spouse or partner at dinner and suddenly feels that wave of the anger, the disgust, the panic, uh, walk us through exactly what they can do in those in those next few seconds and what their spouse might do to help.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Okay. And hopefully that the spouse would have had some background understanding now. But if you're in that situation, some of the I love immediate stuff. You somebody comes to me and it's my kid doesn't want to eat with us anymore. It looks like it's mesophonia. What are we gonna do? Okay, I want the next night that when you sit down, I want there to be big changes. I want music in the background, I want floor fans in the background. That kid can wear uh earphones if they want to. The other thing is I'm sitting down looking at somebody and they're irritating me. Don't sit down and look at them. Sit next to them and look at you both look at the same thing. That's another thing that you can uh do. But you you fill the roots. You notice with mesophonia, one of the worst things to do, say the trigger is chewing, okay? And chewing, you got uh, you know, nuts or crunchy thing. The worst place for you to be is in a quiet room with no sound. That trigger will drive you insane. But if you you ever notice you go to a restaurant, it maybe with your with your kids, and there's ambient noise uh in this music, but it's fairly loud, or people talking and so on, you won't be as bothered by it. And then so you go to that restaurant and here's a person now, and your triggers are auditory with them and they're also visual. Don't sit across from you and open. That's what that's what I do. I got some people. Hello.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I got some people I know. They one of my things is rapid nonstop talking like a machine gun. And so I don't look at those people if I can avoid it. And I try and sit at the other end. I say to my wife, where are we going, can you help me out here tonight? I'm going to sit at the end of the table away from uh Joe's.
SPEAKER_00So and so. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And she'll show help out. And then I have earplugs. I put in earplugs in the restaurant. Other people don't like it. That's too bad. Uh I've never gone so far yet to put on headphones, but people use white noise machines and music makers and all kinds of stuff. But you want all that stuff in place.
SPEAKER_00Wow. So I'm thinking of the storyline then if if my partner has misophonia and irritated and raised by just looking at me or being with me or listening to me, um, the things I need to understand about that, like you I appreciate you saying that we need to get educated, right, as well. That this is not personal. They can't help themselves. This could be a familial thing. Is that right?
SPEAKER_05Yes. And and it's not just listening to you, because it it's usually mouth chewing. I've had a couple of uh cases where um we have uh you know some moms who are really anxious moms and they they supervise too much, way too much. They talk too much and they're always talking to the kids, and they irritate the daylights out of the kids. That's probably not a piece of phonia. It's a kid who wants to be independent but feels like they're getting smothered with correction. That's a little bit different.
SPEAKER_00Um I appreciate that, yeah. Listening to my mouth chewing is what I should have said, right? Listening to the chewing. Yeah, it's all about the the mouth noises. A lot of it's about the mouth, you said.
SPEAKER_05It is and the noises they make, the smacking. It makes a difference. I think some of the time that it can kind of evolve into the the chatterbox anxious person might uh eventually provide a stimulus that's very similar to mesoponia or the irritation is very similar. I and I'm using myself as an example is those that kind of person. I just I can only take so much of that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah, I have I have a niece um who we can't chew gum around because her just watching it's maybe not even the sounds of the sounds will drive her nuts, but even watching, yeah, chewing, chewing, chewing just that drives her nuts. And so first is like awareness, like, oh, you know, maybe a person is is not aware that they chew with their mouth open or they pop their gum or they you know crenching their ice, or so I know for me in our relationship, we again my wife, and then I think all three of our daughters, and then yeah, my sister-in-law. So there I think there are some genetic stuff in here going on town because it's a family with some uh some real good examples of it. Yeah, some sticking, or even yeah, if our girls will watch someone that is, you know, has their sticky fingers and then they do this, you know, and they they lick each of the ends of their fingers and make that noise. It drives them bonicers. So I I guess the the moral of this is awareness, awareness, understanding, uh, patience, and then being sensitive, communicating uh about it, and then but you're talking about kind of setting things up ahead of time, free, whether it's the music or the earplugs and where you sit. Um, so both parties, right, can can work on this with compassion and understanding because without it, it'll do a uh a blaming match, the other person might do it
Sibling Rivalry Meets Trigger Sounds
SPEAKER_04just to yeah, to irritate them on purpose, and then the the cycle goes goes crazy.
SPEAKER_05It really does, and it can be aggravated. I I think it's kind of intriguing how in a family you have kids. We talk about sibling rivalry now. Sibling rivalry is a favorite pastime of children, much to the dismay of their parents. Parents don't realize, we parents don't realize we expect our kids to love each other like we love them. They're wired to compete. We're wired for unconditional love, they're wired for something different, uh, which is more along the lines of my competitive eating theory. But Misophonia can put it right in there because kids know love nothing better than to present themselves to their parents as victims of the outlandish, cruel behavior of a brother or sister. Not what if that behavior is pro production of triggers? Okay, so we gotta now trigger producer, and one kid uh is gonna be triggered by that, and half of them is gonna enjoy the fact that they're a martyr, they can present that to their parents, and then half of them can be generally angry, genuinely angry about it. And then the other one who you know is kind of uh doing the the triggers, they're gonna feel like I didn't do anything either, you know. So they're both feeling innocent, and this is beautiful because they can play either not there's a game called, pardon my language, now I've got you, you son of a bitch, and another game called Poor Me. They play kids play complimentary, now I've got you, poor me, and Misophonia, just as a wonderful part of that recipe, uh, and a good way to drive your parents insane. Because that's something rival is bad enough by itself. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02We'll be right back after this brief message.
SPEAKER_01And we're back. Let's dive right in.
SPEAKER_04Oh man, walk us through your, I mean, you kind of touched a little bit upon it, the ABCD, because I because yeah, I found
The ABCD Five-Second Reset
SPEAKER_04that uh here in the book, which is helpful.
SPEAKER_05ABCD is a way of organizing uh our looking at mesophonia, but it's really a way of looking at how we solve problems. So I have an example in there. You're laying down on the bed reading a book, wasp lands on the end table next to you, uh, you get scared, you swat it with the book, end of problems. Okay, we take that and we do an ABC analysis. A is uh the problem or a situation, that's the wasp landing there. B is your thoughts about it. I could get hurt or I could get stung. C is your emotion, just being at a cat, and D is your action. You hit it with a book. So A in Misophonia terms is somebody chewing nuts next and nuts next to you in a movie theater. Uh B is your thoughts. That's so rude. That's so stupid, that's so gross, it's disgusting. You have an anxious and rage response inside you. And D is you hit them in the mouth. No, no, that's exaggerated. Most people with misophonia don't physically assault anybody, but that's C D. So then what we do with our therapies is we're gonna take mesophonia and attack it from A, trigger management, like we were talking about before. I put in my earbooks. Okay. Uh I don't go to the movies if people are gonna do that kind of stuff. Yeah, B is I do my cognitive therapy. Am I a nutcase? Because I have this no. Are you an a nasty person because you crunch nuts? No, you're not, you're not either. Okay, okay. Gotta practice, practice, practice, thinking differently. C is I'm gonna learn some relaxation uh procedure to deal with the fight or flight response. And D, I'm gonna come up with another uh a constructive action for me to do that, and then I'm gonna practice, practice, practice. But it's called a five-second plan because when this happens to you, you can be fully enraged and panicky inside of five seconds. And that's because Mother Natas Mother Nature made us to respond quickly. Saber tooth tiger walks into your cave. You can't say I'll be with you in a couple minutes, buddy. While I think about what to do, you gotta respond quickly. And that's what responds. So that the ABCD is a way to try and get people to organize their the problem and the therapies for the problem.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Oh, I like the yeah, being able to respond rather than I mean react. But it's like, okay, Cashway's though, it's part of this. Oh, I and I'll probably even name it out loud, right? Of like, okay, I am getting really irritated inside the head, be like, okay, and now I can I can I'm not gonna smack this person next to me in the movie theater with my hand, but I'm going to go through, yeah, the the the steps, kind of the mental model here in my head to uh okay, what can I what can I do about it?
SPEAKER_05That's right. And if you do that, as we were talking about cognitive therapy before, one of the things that happens if you have the ABC model is by using the model, if you're working your way through it, that in itself is giving you something else to think about other than this person's an idiot who deserves a punch in the nose. No, it's a piece of phonemic, uh, okay, they're probably a nice person, probably has kids. She's probably in a, you know, this, that uh don't feel like making a fool out of myself. What's my what's the muscle that gets triggered first? Mine is my stomach. Okay, relax your stomach. Now, do I want to leave? Yeah, okay. I'm gonna leave the theater, I'll do it. I'm gonna feel okay about myself. And I'm not gonna think I'm leaving a stupid creep back there. Nasty, malicious, sadistic. No, I'm leaving a lady had no idea what she was doing. I'm leaving, I have a perfect right to leave because I have misophonia, doesn't make me a nut. I'm just like everybody else in the United States, basically normal person with a couple of nutty quirks, and you know, so and that's your five. But you're thinking of all that, and that stops you from thinking the negative thoughts that would that propel the misophonia. Yeah.
No-Fault Thinking For Couples
SPEAKER_05Yeah, love that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, very helpful.
SPEAKER_00So, Dr. Tom Thalen, please share where can listeners find out more about you, your books, your resources, all of it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, we've got uh we've got a website for Misophonia, it's called stopthatchewing.com. Oh, the clever. And the one two three magic is one two three magic.com. And uh those are the sites that we uh have right now. The the uh the the pub date for the uh Misophonia book is um September 22nd. So if you go on the site now, you can't actually buy it, you can pre-order it if somebody wanted to. Uh one two three magic's been around forever, so that's a that's easy to get. But that's it.
SPEAKER_00That is stop stop that chewing. And in other words, stop stop that thinking, right? Stop that negative loop.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and the step that showing is kind of a play on the on the immediate anguished response.
SPEAKER_00That's what you want to shut down, right? Like stop chewing, stop that chewing. I like that. We will add that to our show notes, Tom. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_04Yes, and Tom, I and I received for our audience. I received in advance uh reading a copy. Thank you so much for sending this. I just want to uh give the shout out here for our listeners. It is not like a thick textbook with complicated words, it's very uh down-to-earth, wonderful examples. It's not, you know, it is uh a simple little read. You can read it in a uh a couple days, even in an afternoon. Um, love the little pictures and the illustration. Like it is very, very uh practical, helps explain it, breaks it down what you each person can do about it, uh, breaks down the ABCD in very simple terms. So I just kudos uh five-star review here, Tom, because uh very, very helpful. Take care. Oh, all right. So before we we let you go, we'd like to ask uh all of our guests a couple of questions. The first being, what do you feel like I feel like is the key to a stronger bear's connection?
SPEAKER_05I I happen to feel that um shared one-on-one fun is the key. And I feel very badly that shared one-on-one fun is what gets us together in the first place when we fall in love and all that. And you look at our priorities five years after what's I our priorities is your job, my job, Rachel, kid two, Kelly, feed the dog, and shared one-on-one fund isn't on the list anymore. Why do you think half of first marriage is wide open doors? We lost the heart of our heart of us. Shared one-on-one.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I love that, and I'll tell a quick example of that. We recently became empty nesters uh about a month ago, Tom. Yeah, we launched our our last one. And you know, first couple days, it was we're pre-sat, right? Little reminders and things, and this stage of life is is uh over as far as you know what we're going through right now. But then after that, we're like, wait a minute, this is actually a lot of fun. We've been to three concerts in the last month and doing fun and enjoyable things. We have yeah, our anniversary is this weekend, we're gonna go to Park City and just being able to reconnect and have fun and laugh and do things for we want. I love that answer, Tom. I agree, I agree. I did check down. Yep, so important.
SPEAKER_02We'll be right back after this brief minutes.
SPEAKER_01And we're back. Let's dive right in.
SPEAKER_04Another question I have for you, Tom, before we let you go, is uh your takeaway of the day. Uh, this is there a take-home message you hope our listeners will remember from our discussion today.
SPEAKER_05There's a lot, but I think one of the easiest and most important to remember is uh the no-fault idea. I'm a trigger producer. Misavonia is nobody's fault. It's not the trigger producer's fault. They have no idea. It's not the click's fault. They didn't ask for this strange neurological auditory sensitivity and all that. And it's almost the heart of the therapy. Because, like Liz, like we were talking about. You're laying in bed there you know, at at night, you don't want to be consumed with guilt and stuff because you're blaming yourself. But then one of our favorite things is to find really actually bastards. We love find finding sons of bitches in the and blaming her for one thing or another. Well, now that's sorry, that's an emotionally satisfying thing to do. Doesn't help anybody. So it's not their fault, not their fault. That's really frustrating because there are days when I want to murder somebody, but there's nobody who deserves it, if you know what I'm saying. And they have no fault divorce, come to think of it. Now they've had it for many, many years. Oh, and this is no fault nasal company.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, love it. Yeah, Liz, what about you? What's your takeaway takeaway of the day?
SPEAKER_00Well, I I tend to think of this radical acceptance, right? No one's fault, as uh Dr. Phelan was saying. I love that. And also just thinking, I I think it would be okay to have cereal in a different room in the sun room when we're outside on the steps, or what what are the adjustments we can make to help create that that piece, you know, literally and fingertipping speaking. And what about you? I know you I've been so looking forward to this interview and didn't disappoint with Dr. Thomas Faela. What's your takeaway?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, this is really helpful. I I uh your comment, Liz made me think of a of a daughter, and she may be, you know, sitting on her husband's lap or something, and he may be chewing something um or loud or doing something, and she'll just sometimes subtle, just kind of touch his his chin, and it helps him to recognize he's like, oh yeah, I forgot, right? She doesn't like that noise or something. And so these just these subtle cues instead of like you know, grabbing his his throat instead. But it but it is Tom, I love the the movie theater example of instead of in my mind, instead of like feeding the feeling, like becoming more and more irritated, and and the whole story, and it goes really fast, right? The hook is is like instant. This person isn't like I cannot stand this. How are they so inconsiderate? And you're building this whole narrative and this story in your head that's just feeding it, you're getting more and more angry inside. Meanwhile, they have no idea, right? This is doing that. So just the the mental switch of catching it, talking about it, talking about your options, because then you're thinking, you're not feeding that feeling anymore. You're thinking about other things. You do have options of what you can do. So it's it's kind of the uh awareness, I guess, of oh, okay, there are some tools, and the person isn't a jerk, and just it creates understanding, even patience, compassion, but then action. Like I need to, I need more tools in my toolbox, and that's what your book I think really is helpful and gives people understanding, awareness, and then some practical tools. So anything else you want to share, Tom?
SPEAKER_05No, I just I like your example with the tapping on the cheek because then assumes so many good things have been practiced in the therapy. It assumes that both the girl and the dad accept the fact and understand misophonia exists. They both accept the fact that it's nobody's fault. And they have a cute kind of nice shared tool that they can do to resolve it, just like that. And that that they have they have worked on it. Yeah, yeah. And that's that that the spirit of that is the goal of the therapy for Misophonia.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, really, it really is. And then it was something that they didn't really discover till they were married, you know, they chose not to live together before marriage, and so it wasn't she didn't realize some of these little things, uh, but then they did. They talked about it, and she just and he knows, and he doesn't feel um like ah, you know, why he just realizes oh, that's kind of what bugs her. And so it's little cues, and I think as it is some subtle things that couples can do to help them and their and their relationship. And you've given a whole book full uh wonderful practical uh tools and strategies, Dr. Thomas. So hey, thank you so much. This has been a a real joy, a real pleasure, uh, Dr. Thomas Phalan for coming on today. Nice talking to both
Resources And Listener Next Steps
SPEAKER_04of you. Thanks a lot. Yes. All right, friends, that does it for now. We will see you next time on another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection Podcast.
SPEAKER_00That's gonna be a popular book, Dave. Yeah? Yes, it is. Can't wait to get it. And remember, dear friends and family, it's the small things that create a stronger marriage connection. Take good care of you and each other. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_04Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us the favor and take a second to subscribe to our podcast and the Utah Marriage Commission YouTube channel at Utah Marriage Commission, where you can watch this and every episode of the show. Be sure to smash the like button, leave a comment, and share this episode with a friend. You can also follow and interact with us on Instagram at StrongerMarriage Live and Facebook at StrongerMarriage. So be sure to share with us which topics you love, which guests we should have on the show next. If you want even more resources to improve your marriage and relationship connecting, visit strongermarriage.org where you'll find free workshops, e-ports, in-depth webinars, relationship surveys, and each episode of Stronger Marriage Connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah Marriage Commission at Utah State University. And finally, a big thanks to our producer, Rex Pilas, and the team at Utah State University. And you, our audience, you make this show possible. The opinions, findings, conclusions, and recommendations expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the Utah Marriage Commission.