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Proptech Pulse: The Evolution and Future of MLS with Greg Robertson

• Lone Wolf Technologies

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Proptech Pulse Podcast: The Evolution and Future of MLS with Greg Robertson


Episode Summary

In this insightful episode of PropTech Pulse, host Kyle Hunter welcomes Greg Robertson, a 30-year veteran of real estate technology. Robertson, who founded his first real estate software company in 1992 and most recently sold W&R Studios (creators of Cloud CMA) to Lone Wolf in 2020, shares his expert perspective on the changing landscape of Multiple Listing Services (MLS). The conversation covers the evolution of MLS from physical books to today's post-settlement environment, current challenges facing the industry, and predictions for the future of real estate data sharing and ownership.


Topics Covered

  • The three stages of MLS evolution (MLS 1.0, 2.0, and 3.0)
  • Impact of the NAR settlement on cooperation and compensation models
  • Current market challenges affecting MLSs and real estate professionals
  • The balance between technological innovation and legal compliance
  • MLS consolidation trends and data sharing models
  • Data ownership debates and broker-of-choice implications
  • Strategies for MLSs to thrive in the changing landscape


Key Quotes

  • "We're in the MLS 3.0 stage where... what used to be the two pillars of MLS, which were cooperation and compensation... mandatory compensation is gone."
  • "The top 23 [MLSs] represent a million of those 1.5 million realtors. So it's a very long tail."
  • "The best marketing is having a great product. When you have a great product, marketing takes care of itself."
  • "Be so good they can't ignore you... focus on the things you can control."


About Greg Robertson

Greg Robertson has been in the real estate technology industry for about 30 years. He started his first real estate software company in 1992, shipping software on 5¼-inch floppy disks. His most recent venture, W&R Studios with flagship product Cloud CMA, was acquired by Lone Wolf in December 2020. Greg is known for his insights on MLS systems and real estate technology trends.


Resources Mentioned

  • MLS Reset conference
  • Clear Cooperation policies
  • NAR settlement and its implications

PropTech Pulse: From the entrepreneur's desk to the industry front lines and into real-world operations – taking the pulse of real estate technology in just 20 minutes.




https://www.lwolf.com/podcast

SPEAKER_01:

From the entrepreneur's desk to the industry front lines and into real-world operations. I'm Aaron Cardell, joined by Kyle Hunter and Jake Hamilton. And we're here to take the pulse of real estate technology in just 20 minutes. Hello everyone, and welcome to Prompt Tech Pulse. Today we have the fabulous Greg Robertson.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you for using my my Twitter moniker there, uh Kyle.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh well, Greg, uh, we're happy to have you today. Um let's start out. Maybe uh tell us a little bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, um, I've been in the uh real estate technology industry for about 30 years. I started my first real estate software company back in 1992, if you can believe it. We uh we shipped software on five and a quarter floppies and boxes, and now we went from boxes to the cloud, whatever that means. And uh, but I've had about you know three companies in that time. My last company was WR Studios, our flagship product was Cloud CMA, and um we actually that's where we met, I sold my company, WNR Studios, my business partner Dan Woolley and I sold it to Lone Wolf back in uh December of 2020, which seems like a lifetime ago, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01:

It sure does. Uh but it hey, it was one of our one of our greatest uh mergers, I think.

SPEAKER_00:

So yeah, thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01:

So um I we have quite a few questions today to go through and uh I want to go through a kind of rapid session, but you know, coming off uh last week, I was uh had the ability to to attend the inaugural MS MLS reset, which I thought was a great event and just a lot of good topics, conversation, a lot of things that came out of it. And so you know, really just kind of piggyback on that, I'd love to um talk a little bit about you know the evolution and the future of of MLS, but let's start out by you know, from your perspective, um, you know, what is the current state of the MLS? Maybe over the past decade, how has that uh evolved and as far as the landscape?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's gone through quite a bit of changes. I mean, um, I you might have I've heard this, I've said this on stage, but I think MLS has gotten kind of we're in the MLS 3.0 stage where MLS 1.0 was basically you had an organization, they had books, right? Where you know had all the listings in a book. And um, you know, agents were basically gatekeepers of the data. You couldn't see, know what was on the market really. And so unless you saw a for sale sign in a in a a lawn or you knew an agent, right? Uh that to me is what I would qualify as MLS 1.0. MLS 2.0 is the advent of the internet, right? So now um listings are everywhere, like realtor.com was launched in 2000 or 1995-ish, 96, and then Zillow about 10 years later, and now listings are everywhere. Agents are no longer the gatekeepers, and uh they've got to find up new ways of of working that way, right? And you know, we basically at that point also um were able to put the internet in the palm of our hands here with our with our mobile phones. And I think right now um we're an MLS 3-0, right? This this third version. And that that wasn't, you know, the last the last version was brought to us by technology, the internet. This one unfortunately came to us because of the uh of a uh lawsuit in Missouri, right? And a subsequent settlement from NAR afterwards. So now what used to be uh uh the two pillars of MLS, which were cooperation and compensation, compensation now, mandatory compensation is gone. And now agents and brokers have to find themselves how to kind of how to do business in this new world where compensation isn't just a foregone conclusion. So um that's how I kind of look at things right now. There's some other things here, but that to me is in a nutshell there, high level.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, and I know that that really uh disrupted um all of the industries, you know, beyond the MLSs and you know, obviously just the need to require, you know, have the buyer broker agreement up front to even show a property and just all the changes that you know agents or brokerages are having to navigate today. Um, but with that said, maybe drill down a little further and what kind of the key challenges that MLSs are are facing today, now that they, you know, one big component of that value proposition is is gone away. Uh, you know, what are some of those other uh challenges that they're they're looking to try to uh overcome today?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I mean, as I said, there are two pillars I think of an MLS were cooperation and compensation. Now that you know compensation is taken away, um, MLSs have to really focus on that cooperation aspect. What how can they get these brokers together to cooperate together if there's no, you know, there used to be a carrot and a stick, and now the carrot has gone away as far as being compensation. So what tools can they do? What things can they enact within their MLS organizations to really foster cooperation? Um, cooperation to me is another word for community, for communication, right? So I think those are the challenges. And then you have the other thing that's a challenging that is really, you know, coming to bear here is is the market overall, right? I mean, we have an extraordinarily tough market. I mean, I think it was the lowest number of transactions. Uh interest rates rose higher and quicker than historically in 70 years. Affordabilities, you know, um, you know, most people can't even buy a home anymore. Um, so there's you know, interest rates, as I said, you know, went up. Um, it's just challenging for all those things. And that kind of market um fosters uh a lot of problems for brokers and agents. If there's less transactions, um that that's not a good thing for any of us, right? Especially those in the uh in the MLS world or in the vendor world that sells tools to agents for sure.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. No, absolutely. You know, I guess uh I saw where you know the housing units were that online with 1995, like and so uh there was a lot more, a lot higher population back then. So um, you know, you're having to find more folks to do more things with. And I know that, you know, um obviously that comes with a lot of change. I was on with uh an MLS provider earlier today, and you know, there was 150 new members that were right there in the training. And so how are they able to continue to keep that demand up and you know, to make it important for membership to you know retain at the levels that they're at?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because I I I you know I go to a lot of events, right? So I was at the Inman New York uh Connect, and one of the speakers there was uh Mike Kilpredi, right? And he talked about the dichotomy of there's less transactions, but there's more of a pool of commissions out there because the houses that are in there right now are worth appreciably more, right? So maybe back in 1995, or let's let's use a better example, 2019, maybe there was you know 35 billion in in in commissionable dollars that you could get, right? Even though you can talk about the transactions getting lower, the number of things getting lower. The fact is, since 2019, the appreciation of the homes has gotten higher, which means the amount available for commissions is actually higher than it ever has been, right? So there's maybe less, but there's more to be making from less, if that makes any sense. So I don't know how that can factor anybody's strategies, but um, I always hate the doom and gloom of things, and I try to find some bright spots. And I I heard that from Mike, and I'm like, well, we should share that with people, that it's not such a uh doom and gloom, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, and I agree. I mean, there's there's something in it that makes folks continue to to join the industry, and and you know, um we have to keep plugging along. So, with that said, when you have um these changes in the market, how are MLSs adapting to kind of the new new demands of technology, uh the new things that are available to them and um you know, really how that plays within the prop tech ecosystem?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I mean, you know, I'll I'll be honest with you. For MLSs right now, they've been so mired in, you know, uh depositions and reading through legal documents because of the lawsuits. Um, you can look back at 2024, hardly any of them had any time to really introduce any new tech or try to, you know, or get anybody's attention. And that goes for the same thing for vendors like Lone Wolf or some other companies of getting their attention because they've been so focused with with those with those lawsuits. Now that the settlement is is enacted, it's a brand new year. Um I hope we'll see a thawing it out there. Um, you know, and and you know, there are some some um some people that are saying that there's gonna be more transactions this year, maybe not a lot more, but at least more. Um, maybe we'll see some thawing out of some more innovation and new companies coming up on online, or uh there has been a lot of new innovation. I know you guys have done a lot of new innovation, but it's hard to get anybody to pay attention because they've been so mired in in all these legal battles, right? Even the brokerages, a lot of brokerages had the same kind of lawsuits. So they for them to focus on like somebody coming out with some new technology, it's been tough. And I hope that 2005, 2025, I should say, um, you know, thaws things out so that we can begin to kind of look towards the future again in in regards to technology and other things.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, and I, you know, to your point, I've uh spoke with a few industry leaders, mostly in the franchise world, um, this year, that really they're in, they're turning the page. Let's move forward. You know, there was election, there was um, you know, Sisabranet, there was all the different things that were just creating chaos last year, and obviously with the market. Um, now it's really focused on, okay, how do we go forward? How do we move forward and and continue to grow our brands, grow our um, you know, market share? Um, with that said, what are MLSs? You know, there's a lot of changes, you know, whether it's uh, you know, Phoenix trying something new or you know, Alabama or different different MLSs, what what are some of the innovative ideas that you're seeing from MLSs um to really pivot and and change the way uh that they are working to you know increase um you know value to their members?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I I think there's kind of two things out there, right? Number one would be MLS are are starting to do what I would call like MLS-led technology initiatives or MLS-owned things where they have hired their own developers and they're developing their own software. They're they're becoming their own software companies before they would license software technology solutions from other vendors. Some of them are becoming vendors themselves, where they not only create software for their own use, but they'll go to out there and try to sell it to other MLSs. Kind of this like um built for MLSs for ML, you know by MLSs for MLSs kind of thing. So you see a bit about that. Um you see in MLSs making investments in some other vendors. And this is this hasn't happened for a while now, but you've seen that before because they've seen some prop tech vendors go on to have success by being acquired and they want to participate in that. Um, you know, and you know, it's it's just gonna be it's gonna be interesting to find out, like anything else, you know, selling and creating your own technology, it makes, you know, the grass is always greener. You think like, oh, I can control this and I don't have to deal with these guys, I can do it myself. Well, there's challenges to that too, right? Um, and when things screw up, the big target is on your back, not anybody else's, right? So you have to make sure that um you're doing the right thing for your members and and everybody else.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, for sure. I mean, uh, and you know it as good as I do, you know, technology and a lot of people have great ideas. And then as soon as that idea comes to fruition and you have a solution, there's a hundred other ideas on how to make it better and how to continue to maintain. And you know, it's just a never-ending saga of uh, you know, keeping up with the new technology, and then you have to support it and you have to keep it running. And I think a lot of times um, you know, that's challenging, and it's why we love to partner with you know MLSs and associations to to drive membership. Um with that said though, what would a modernized MLS look like? So if you were able to start today with the landscape that we're in, you know, what what how would you think about that?

SPEAKER_00:

Got a modernized MLS, right? I mean, that's that's interesting. I mean, you know, here's the thing. It's like when you say modernize, right? A lot of people just think of an MLS as a listing platform, right? It's a database of listings and photos and virtual tours, just a database or a listings platform. What people forget is like an MLS is a broker cooperative, right? So the challenging, the modern MLS is now, the challenges that MLSs are facing now are really more policy and political, right? So there's a big movement called clear cooperation, which, you know, because it's a broker cooperative, there's a rule that says if you want to market your public, your listing publicly, uh, it has to, you have to put on the MLS within one day. And that's causing a lot of riots from some uh bigger brokerages, national-wise brokerages, of like, they want to do, you know, they want their cake and eat it too, right? They want to be able to participate in all the great things an MLS does, but but they also want to, you know, have their own exclusive stuff too. And that that um that goes against the spirit of what an MLS is, a broker cooperative is. So if you're saying what a modern MLS is, would be less focusing on the technology side. But how do we solve these kind of real problems of brokers' business models out there, right? And and the problem I I see too is that we've had such a prolonged, uh, pro proactive like uh cycle of being a seller's market. And that's why we have all these kind of talks about pocket listings. When it goes to a buyer's market, well, everybody wants to, whatever they can do to get it sold, they're gonna get it sold. But now that they can kind of, you know, maybe hide it for a little longer or have these pocket listings, you're just seeing these new business models of saying, they're not new, right? But they're, you know, they've been around a while, but they've been out there longer because this of this kind of elongated cycle for many reasons. You could say COVID, you could say supply, you could say, you know, a lot of different things, right? Or the even back to the GFC. Um, but the market's gonna turn and it always turns. So um, I'm just hoping if you're a modern MLS, you've got to like the things you want to do are come up with strategies to, you know, keep everybody cooperating and working nice together, right? Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater, right? No, let's not make change all our rules for the market today, and then we discover later on when the market shifts that there's nothing here that's gonna help us in in the other times, too, right? So that's what I think about like modern MLS problems are more those types of issues than really technology.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. No, it's uh makes sense, and I think that you know, modern MLS will will change, but let's talk about the future then. What um, you know, do you think there's gonna be consolidation in the MLS landscape? Like, is that a something you would project in the future?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I mean, you know, you I always say this there's 522 MLS. Um, there's 1.5 million realtors in the uh United States. It might be 1.49 now. I don't know, it's a little bit less. But uh of the 522 MLSs, the top 23 represent a million of those 1.5 million realtors, right? So it's a very long tail, as they say, right? Um, I think if I remember correctly, of those 500, 250 of those MLSs have less than 500 members apiece.

unknown:

Right?

SPEAKER_00:

Think about that, right? You have some MLSs that maybe only have 200 or 100 people, right? So um consolidation is tough because a lot of times they're really kind of resort towns or small areas and and they don't really see a need for joining. So, yes, I think there'll be consolidation, but um, I still think there's gonna be uh uh some number of them that are just gonna be independent. Um, you know, there's gonna be always Aspen and Vale, I think. I, you know, they in my mind they're the same. I mean, I've I think I've been to one of them, and anybody from Aspen and Vale could tell me I'm a I'm uh I'm crazy because they're so different. But you know, why do they have, why would you have, you know, so I I don't know. I mean, yes, there'll be some consolidation. When I started, I think there's over 750 MLSs, it's down to 522. But, you know, again, I started a long time ago, and that that that that shift is going to take a long time.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Well, and then continuing on that thread, if if they're not consolidating, you know, um, talk to us a little bit about the data sharing models and and policies. Because I know that was uh, you know, part of that big discussion of, you know, does that continue? Do you do you pull back on that? You know, how does that where do you see that falling?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I mean, I'm there's an argument to be made whether data shares hurt or help data consolidation or MLS consolidation, because it's really coming from the brokers. If you're if you're a broker doing business in Colorado and you have to join 17 MLSs to kind of do business, it's ridiculous, right? So a lot of times these data shares can help with brokers that, okay, well, at least I can go to one place and they've shared data and I can go into one platform, right? Um, but that also kind of drops the impetus for MLS to go out each after each other because you know the data's there. It's kind of a uh a band-aid, really, but still it's workable and you know, they they got that out of the way, right? So um, you know, some people have been calling for MLS to compete more, right? To really, you know, that would be really, but I think in the end, the brokers are gonna, you know, if if you if a broker just to, you know, an MLS if they wanted to be a bit more uh aggressive, they could drop a data share, right? But their brokers would be the most, their their own members would be the pissed off the most. Like I don't care about you guys merging, I just wanted to be able to do business. I want to be able to go one place and search for listings that I can sell or you know, help help my clients buy, right? I mean, that's I think it's really tough to kind of make that work altogether. It's not as easy as people think.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and what I mean, I think if if you're in one of those markets where you are having to log in and really go into different places to find what you're looking for, and and you don't have you know easy ways to to access that, um, you know, you're just adding a ton of layers and and uh frustration to that whole process. And so yeah, totally understand, and then money, you know, a lot of those you're having to pay for those individuals. Um so um yeah, that'll be interesting come down the pipe. Uh got a couple more, uh, time for a couple more. One, I'd love to understand um your take on the the brokerage, uh broker of choice implications. So, you know, whether or not you are, you know, participating in the association and and how that relates to your membership in the MLS. And and the point of a lot of the MLS is are starting to look at ways that they can, you know, allow for that access um without actually being a member of the association.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I mean, that's happened in a lot of places, what they call Thompson states, where you don't have to be a member of the association or in order to join the MLS, you could have an MLS only account. And I think because of the lawsuits, there might, you know, might some people might deem that necessary to separate themselves from the MLS association. There. But that's a lot of that's can be hard for associations because the association was then first. They they started the MLS to help them with their business model. And they're kind of symbiotic, right? To tear them apart, they weren't really set up to do it that way. They weren't really set up to be separate. So it's going to be, it's good, it can work in some areas. In other areas, it's going to be very difficult. So no matter what happens. So I think it's just going to be we're going to have to see what happens in different markets. But it's a market-by-market thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Gotcha. Last question. Data ownership and control. Obviously, there's a lot of talk about that. Whose data is this that is coming in? The broker, the MLS, the consumer, the franchise. You know, what is your general take on that discussion?

SPEAKER_00:

My general take is the broker's data, right? I mean, but there's different things between the the data itself and the compilation of that data, right? So sometimes the MLS can claim to have a um claim over the compilation of all that data, right? Um so it goes that way. But I mean, most of the things, most MLSs and associations are set up where um data licenses that you have to sign data licenses to do anything, right? So and those data licenses cover what you can do and what you can't do. So um there's already place, you know, things in in in in process and the way that you do things that that really answer any questions that people might be fearful of.

SPEAKER_01:

No, it makes a lot of sense. I know from the broker side, um, you know, obviously that's that's their take as well, but there's a lot of things that can be done and a lot of value can be drived from from all of that. So uh last one, what's some key takeaways um that that you would have from the MLS space uh for this audience?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I mean, for MLS's, I think for anybody, I mean, you know, at Cloud CMA at WNR Studios, I mean, our our thing was always, you know, um the best marketing is having a great product, right? I mean, when you have a great product, uh marketing takes care of itself. I mean, be I I do a presentation that's called Be So Good They Can't Ignore You, right? So focus on the things you can control. Only compete with yourself, and I think you'll be all right. All the other stuff is just nonsense, it's just noise, right? I mean, just try to be a better organization. Use what you have to be better. I mean, use your people, use your tools, use everything you can to be better. Um, and if you keep focusing on making a great company, a great product, a great place for people to work, you're gonna do great.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, Greg, thank you for your time today. We really appreciate you appreciate you having you on uh Top Tech Pulse. Thank you. Thanks for inviting me. That's our pulse for today. Keep innovating, keep implementing, and keep moving real estate forward.

Contributor

svalerin@lwolf.com

Producer