How to Break Growth Barriers thru Trust + Empowerment with Jon Kragel

Is there a lid on your ministry? How do you prevent obstacles from slowing your church plant? What barriers are blocking your impact right now?

In this episode pastor Jon Kragel unpacks how to break through barriers with two powerful tools: Trust + Empowerment. While the terms might seem simple, the way to foster them is through principles Jon will offer. There's a lot of practical meat in this interview. 

Jon planted Mission Grove Church prior to covid, survived the impossible in that season, moved countless locations, established a 24-7 faciltiy, and most of all built a healthy, thriving team and church that's now moving to three services in North Phoenix. Follow them HERE!

You're not going to want to miss this episode with pastor Jon. He's a practitioner in the trenches make magic happen--and has a powerful way of synthesizing complex ideas into bite-size practical application. And YES: We get granular in this episode!

---

JOIN US FOR S2! 

S2 IS A MAJOR CONFERENCE FOR CHURCHES THAT WANT TO GROW AND LEADERS WHO WANT TO LEAD BETTER. 

Nov. 11-13

Speakers this year: Levi Lusko, Charlette Gambill, Jonathan Pokluda--plus outstanding breakout sessions.

Click Here to Register while there's time!

---

⛪️ PLANT WITH US! 

Interested in church planting? Let's start the conversation! 

https://www.visionarizona.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

you You always need new churches because there's always a new group of people showing up that the older churches are going to struggle to reach. Sometimes the new churches reach the new incomers. They reach the new immigrants, they reach the new young professionals, and they actually help the older churches do a better job of reaching the newer people. It's also true that in general, church planting is the best way, I think, to evangelize the world in general because churches are communities. They need a relationship. They need to be brought into a community where they can incubate and in the gospel. And therefore, church planting is the way to reach changing cities. It's a way to win people to faith that I don't think, there's no other method that is as good.

SPEAKER_01: 0:44

Hey, welcome to the Vision Arizona podcast. My name is Nolan. I'm your host. And today we have a special guest, John Crago. Give it up, everybody. Thanks, man. It's good to be here with you. barrier, a team that's not unified, trying to figure out how to get to that next level in your leadership. I think John's going to be a huge help for us. John, welcome, and hey man, would you give us just a little bit of the rundown of your church and your story? Yeah, definitely. Thanks for having me, Nolan, and let me just say too, man, I love being your friend, love seeing what's going on in the garden, and amazing things are happening here in Vision, Arizona, and I really think the gospel is just exploding here in the Valley, and And it's so cool to see that in the churches. And for those that don't know Nolan, he really is that motivating and encouraging all the time. And so every time I get done having a conversation with Nolan or hang out, I just feel better, right? And so we love you guys. We're praying for you. And thanks for all you do, not just for the garden, but for the Valley and Vision Arizona, man. You're awesome. Likewise, bro. Thanks, man. All right, tell us about Mission Grove. Man, Mission Grove is that... The idea behind the name is that When I was leading a student trip up in the Mogan Rim area, and I was praying for next steps for what God was going to do. And I was having a devotional time there on a mountaintop overlooking this forest, and God hit me with two thoughts in that moment. And that was that no matter how big one tree gets, and I was under this massive pine tree, no one tree makes a grove. But at some point, that entire forest there that I was looking at started from just one tree. And so that's actually why we're called Mission Grove. is that no single tree makes a grove, but a grove can start from just one tree. And so our heartbeat is to help every man, woman, and child experience Jesus, and that we do that through planting the gospel, growing in community, and multiplying through service. And so we love just seeing the gospel multiplied. That's why Grove's in the name. And so we had this heart, we had this vision, and so we launched the end of 2018. And on our grand opening day, we had torrential flooding that froze the three main roads to get to our church. In Arizona. And like one of the three days it rains here, all of the rain came on the day that we grand opened. It washed away our A-frames, the whole nine. Um, but we survived that we started growing. Uh, I remember we were going to launch community groups and, uh, we rented out the community rec center. And right before we started our event, the manager came out and said, I'm so sorry. Uh, I accidentally double booked. It's also Caribbean music night. And then in walk dudes with steel drums like playing. And so we had music playing the whole time and we're trying to inspire people in community and it's going through almost a win though. Almost a win. I mean, we're still talking about it these years later. And so we go through this, the grinding of that first year of church planting. So 2019 was our first year, full year as a church. And so of course, as any other church, 2020, right? That's going to be our year, right? And so we go. The best year. And the pandemic comes and we're a brand new church and just grinding. And so we're like, what's going to happen? And so the school, we were in an elementary school, kick us out. I had a partnership with a local coffee shop and so they gave me a key I would go in off hours and they had we tried to do this whole teaching TV thing but their TV because it was a restaurant or a coffee shop was too high and so I would actually stand on broken milk crates out of frame and we'd try to record the message and then our musicians were primarily college students that went home for spring break that couldn't come back and so every week we would actually send and our worship director was in Iowa at the time And so he would record from Iowa. We had a drummer from Hawaii. We had someone else in Arizona. They would all record on their phones, send it to him. He would mix it, send it to our people in there. My dad would record the sermon with me and then he would edit it and put it all together and we'd upload it every week. And so we did that for about eight months to try to survive. And dude, can I just camp on the COVID catastrophe for just a second? The fact that you're standing on the COVID crates because you are not tall enough is insane. It If you guys don't know, when you're like six, what? Six, five. Yes. You're like basketball player height. And like the world closes down. Like I can't reach the TV. That's just insane. So right out of the gate, I think. if you're a church planter, I want you to just imagine going through John's situation. Uh, John planted right before, um, COVID. So that, that in and of itself is incredible. The fact that, uh, you guys survived most of the church planters and many of the pastors leading existing churches that I knew, uh, closed down never to open their doors again. And so the fact that you reopen, I mean, that was one of the reasons that when I traveled down to be part of vision, Arizona, coming down from Portland, they were like, you have to meet John Craig goal and you have to see his church because they accomplish one of the feats that very few churches do and being at that what was that like to have only what a year and a half under your belt really well yeah we we've just seen God move so much through that so we felt God lead for example to double down and make a difference in our community so we decided to prayerfully partner they've changed names now I forget what their new name is at the time they were called RIP Medical Debt there's a company that buys medical debt. for pennies on the dollar. And then instead of charging it like a creditor does, forgives the debt. And so that first month after COVID hit and everything shut down, we said, you know what, let's take everything that came in, like half of what came in that month, and let's make a double down on our community that we're going to love them. And so we partnered. They said, how many families qualify for this in our zip code? And they said 700 families. And we said, all right, we'll take it. And they're like, take what? I said, we'll take all the families. And so we wrote a check for$13,000 for a church that we didn't know if we were going to exist. And they had no place to meet to pay off the debt for families that we were never going to meet. But this is how good God is, is that we prayed over it with our leadership. We said, okay, I think God's calling us to do this. Let's do it. We wrote the check on a Tuesday night. Wednesday morning, woke up to an email from one of the Converge national representatives. And so we're part of Vision Arizona and then Converge is the national network that we're a part of. And they said, hey, we know COVID is hitting church plants especially hard. So we're going to send you a$10,000 grant. Come on. So God replenished our generosity within 12 hours. Unbelievable. To make the difference in the community. I didn't know that part of it. So since that point, we're like, okay, God's got us, right? And so we started doing online. We started trying to make the difference in people's lives, helping, right? Bringing meals. Kids ministry got creative. Instead of like those HelloFresh prepared for you meals, we did that for kids devotionals and lessons. And so we dropped them off at people's houses and things like that. You were the HelloFresh of kids devotionals. Of kids devotionals. Our kids director did that. It was awesome. And then so the schools wouldn't open up to us, but we wanted to gather. We were feeling the sense to gather. And so the only place that would open up to us was a comedy club and bar. Let's go. The comedy club, bar, and sometimes Caribbean music church. There it is. Yep. And so we did church out of a bar for about 10 months. Yeah, you did. Yeah, you did. It was great. We had, you know... I felt licensed to tell a lot more jokes in the sermons, you know, like when in Rome. But did you drink during your sermons? I mean, communion was fun. You know what I mean? And we kept the two drink minimum. So that helped with the offering. Well, I got Southern Baptist roots. So that's what that God found that really ironic. And I don't even drink. So, you know, running out of a bar was great. No. So, no, but we didn't. We did have taps on the wall. True story, we did have one drunk guy stumble into the service and start shouting God words during the sermon. And so I was preaching and he would just go, Yahweh. The fact that he was a drunkard and knew Yahweh is everything to me. That's great. He needs Jesus. He does. And so then we, God... you know, going through all the protocols, all that stuff, um, did two services. We're literally cleaning up the floors from the night before stuff and removing all the restaurant stuff out of the way. So we can have a kid's ministry of some semblance of something and then a service and God was blessing it. And so, uh, we started to grow. It wasn't, it was a fun season, but not the most practical, obviously. And so when schools opened up, we went back to the schools and, and started to grow there too. And then God opened up the door a couple of years for us to get into our own space and, uh, and, and, It's been exciting. So we went from one service to two service, looking at potentially going to three services this fall. And so God's just been on the move. And just time and time again, like that donation day, he just keeps showing up. And that's what keeps me showing up, is knowing that if we show up, God's going to show off and that we can trust in that. And so it's just to see God come through time and time again, it's been amazing. Dude, I want to highlight just a few things that you said there and really dive into your superpower. One of the things that you just walked through is that you've been in what, three or four different facilities now? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Since 2018, it's 2025 upon recording, you've been in, you said five? Yeah. Because even in that, in the school at some point, they decided they were going to remodel for the summer. So then we had to go back into homes for a season and back in. So if you count every little space we've met in, I think it's up to eight, but like three major moves. So you've gone through, yeah, three major moves, five. Eight. facility situations, including a pandemic, your first year and a half, two years in without a lot of stability, you have big vision, fearless leadership. What I want to point out is the fact that like, especially in that bar story, you've been able to lead people into new seasons again and again and again, and somehow inspired them to action. So like you said, you guys were cleaning up stuff on the ground and, in order to have church for a while there. Okay, this is where I think your superpower comes in, but I want to unlock it for everyone today that's trying to break barriers like this, trying to figure out how to move forward into the future when they're facing obstacles like this. Because this is, again, something I think you do better than most. How have you unlocked people's potential on your team? Like how have you gotten to mobilize people literally to the point of like, I'm going to clean up filth from a bar last night so that people can meet Jesus. Yeah. How do you do that, man? Man, the, the key came for me. Um, so during the middle of everything and during the pandemic, I decided to go back to school and complete, um, my graduate work. And so, and during that research time for my doctorate, I actually studied churches that were killing it, that were just repeatedly training, attracting, and elevating young leaders. And so I wanted to deep dive into that and say, hey, what's working for them? And after studying several different organizations, the key that really came out for me is that healthy cultures are cultures built on trust and empowerment.

UNKNOWN: 13:24

And so,

SPEAKER_01: 13:24

And that idea of the two-sided coin of trust, empowerment, unlocked everything for me. One thing that, so we need to dive into all of that. One thing I want to say as we do, so John is incredible with teams. John is incredible at unlocking the potential of people. He is incredible at taking people through walls of fire that other people are like, we can't move forward. John, you've been able to do that. And so trust and empowerment, this is a framework you use in building up and unlocking the potential of teams. One thing about John that I've picked up is you're equally as powerful a lead pastor, church planter, as you are like an executive pastor. You know, like you have both of those sides of your brain that most of us don't. Like I lean into executive pastors at our church. You kind of are both. And so you lead your team, you lead your staff. Talk to me about this framework you use of trust and empowerment. Do you mind like kind of, cause I know this is a whole world of thought for you. Do you mind like unpacking that for So the practical side of schooling and research, so not getting into the nerdy academic side of it, is really that key of trust and empowerment unlocks so much. And so I created a tool called the Trust Empowerment Matrix that I use with our team. And it's really defined our culture as a church. And so a trust really can be defined as the confidence you have in somebody's competence and character. And so it's the level of of confidence you have. And competence and character are both needed. There are people that you would trust with your life or with a secret, but you're not quite sure you trust them with a particular task or a job. And then there's other people that you trust to get the job done You don't quite trust their character, the person. And so you need both. But the thing that actually helped me and flipped the switch for me was the realization that if trust must be earned, then trust can be learned. That trust actually is a skill set that you can teach and actually build into your teams. And so for me, it's that idea of three ways to build trust would be, are you approachable? Do people have access to you? Are you humble? Do you know the families? Do they know you? Do they feel a connection to you? The second way of building trust is authenticity. Are you real? I say instead of showing the display case bakery items, take them back in the kitchen. Let them get some flour on their hands and show them how the stuff is made. You can take them in and say, are you being real? Are you showing, hey, here's where I messed up right? Can you be vulnerable? But then you open that dialogue, right? Being open with them. And then the third component of trust really is then accountability. Do you follow through? Are you willing to have the hard conversation? Because if you have the hard conversation with somebody, it actually builds the relationship and that's what trust is all about, right? It sets the temperature of the room and that you want a high trust environment. The other side of it would be empowerment where if trust is the relationship side, that empowerment actually is the responsibility side. And to empower someone, the definition I would define empowerment as giving somebody the authority and the ability to do something. And so we get stuck sometimes when we give somebody the responsibility of a task, but then we don't give them the authority to do something about it. Or maybe we've given them the authority, but we don't equip them and give them the opportunity to actually step up and lead where they need to. And so three ways that I've seen helpful to building empowerment is is clarity, consent, and coaching. And so clarity is unified language, right? You're very big on unified language within the garden and vision mission values, but it's also clarifying what is the win, right? They have this term in military terms where it's called the commander's intent to where let's say the objective is to take this hill, okay? You might have a strategy or plan to take the hill, but what happens when you get into the battle, change. If you have to go back up the chain and wait for the new strategy to act, it's too late. But if you know the objective, if you know the commander's intent, like my job is to take that hill, then you have the freedom to adjust to really accomplish the objective. Another way to think about that is what's the goal of the goal, right? So the goal is not just the system that you've implemented, but the goal is what's the purpose of that system that you're implementing. And so when you understand the opposite or what a success, then it gives people the opportunity to step up and rise up and lead where they're able to. And then after clarity is the idea of consent, where it's really, do you give people permission to play? Do you give them a chance to rise up and to lead? You know, I know our friend and mentor, you just had him on here, Bill, always says, let leaders lead. And so the best way to do that is give them that opportunity. And so, and, and, this is probably where I've seen pushback on this, is because you're not going to give people permission to change major things in the organization. But if you don't give people a vote in the decision, maybe you can give them a voice. And if you don't give them a chance to maybe decide how the factory system works, give every single person in your team the opportunity to stop the line. I forget which car manufacturer it was, but they ended up turning it around because what was happening is they were producing cars and the workers on the front line were seeing defects. But if they stopped the line, that's costing the organization money. And so they're saying, wait, I can't, I don't want to cost them money. So they let defects through. And so they didn't decide how to design the cars. They didn't decide what the process was, but they empowered the lowest level factory worker. Anybody in the factory could stop the line if they saw an issue. And what that did was to value excellence, elevated everyone's game and they got better for it. Another hotel example is an example where at the Rich Carlton, I forget the exact amount, but they empower the bellhop up to like$200 or$1,000 to make things right for the customer. If there's an issue or something happens, you empower them with authority to impact the bottom line, which is customer retention and satisfaction. As church leaders, how does that come into play. What areas can you empower leaders to step up and lead with the risk, not just the task, but then the responsibility, right? Because if you give them permission and understand that failure is going to come with that, you can actually grow. And when you have that, then that leads to the last component there of coaching. And so when you have coaching, you can come alongside that and say, hey, you tried this, it didn't work. Let's come alongside here. Let's try this next time. And you help and elevate them and you get better. And so idea of a trust empowerment is that it really creates a cohesive team, both in relationship and responsibility. But what happens a lot of times is we tend to... we tend to favor one or the other. And so what I use with our team, we call it the trust empowerment matrix. And it's just one of those two by two boxes, right? And so if you have a low trust, low empowerment team, I would call that the micromanager. That's someone who needs to be in on everything, tells them what to do, but also doesn't care about the person. The end result of that team then is apathy. Now, I spent half my life envisioning through sports or movie references. And so what comes to mind for me as that micromanager is you end up with a team of stormtroopers. The guys that look the same, they're not good at their job, they're not resilient, they fall out. And nobody wants to work for a micromanager. Is that because of the micromanaging? The micromanaging is causing people to function that way. Yeah, they just feel completely boxed in and it feels like, why try? It doesn't matter. Now the two wings of the matrix, so whether it's high trust or high empowerment, actually you can see some success, but it's not the healthiest. So for example, if you have high trust but low empowerment, I would call that person the minion maker. So again, I got three kids and so I've seen all the Despicable Me movies. If you think about it, you got a character, Gru, and all the little yellow guys, the minions, right? You got one decision maker and then a bunch of loyal followers. They actually are pretty successful in the first movie, right? They steal the moon. That's pretty good. That's not bad. That's not bad, right? So as long as the decision maker makes good decisions, right, they can do great stuff. But the problem is when that one person leaves, that one person stops making great decisions, or you get one of the younger leaders, like the minions, wants to grow in their responsibility and now they don't have any authority to do anything, What do they do? They leave. And so the end result of a micromanager is apathy, but the end result of a minion maker is actually frustration. And they say, I can't grow here. So your best people end up leaving. You got some rock star, future preacher, rock star, leader, worship leader, but they're like, I'm pigeonholed into these small areas of just honestly like obedience, widget making in this church So I think Larry Osborn says it this way, eagles want to soar, and eagles will find the place with the highest ceiling. And if your ceiling's real low, they'll leave. You'll have a church of no young eagles. So you're a minion maker. You're a minion maker, right. Now the other side of it, you can also have some success where you have high empowerment but low trust. I would call that person the silo builder. Okay, right. And so an example of that might be if you've been in a church where maybe one ministry is really successful but unconnected to the others. Or if you're in a business world, maybe you have one department that does really well together but is completely removed from everybody else. The movie reference there for me would be Batman. I'm curious how you're going to explain that. Well, because Batman's really good at what he does. He doesn't want to work with anybody though. Right? I mean, you can try with the DC League and all that stuff, but at the end of the day, he's like, just let me be Batman. Leave me alone. And so the end result of a silo builder is not frustration, but actually isolation. And so you can have a certain level of success, but where silo builders get into trouble is that, one, when it's budget time. Mm-hmm. Because now you're in it for yourself, right? It's almost like a giant staff game of hungry, hungry hippos. Yeah. Right? Like, what can you get? And number two, when things go wrong, what do silo builders do? They blame. Oh, it's not my ministry. Right? Which you don't want that in a church, and you can't have that. Would you say it also produces division? It does, 100%. Yeah. Which is the scariest thing of all, because now you have a church split. Yep. Or the brewings of it. Yeah. And it just becomes... healthy quickly. But the positive environment, the one that you want to work for, the fourth quadrant here, is where you have high empowerment, high trust. I would call those people the hero multipliers. Wow, okay. I like that title. And so the movie reference there is if you think about the Avengers.

UNKNOWN: 25:37

Woo!

SPEAKER_01: 25:38

You've got a group of people with very different superpowers that together save the world. You're no longer threatened by somebody's skill set, but you think, wow, together we can save the world. And so the end result is not apathy or frustration or isolation. The end result of the hero multipliers is collaboration. Yeah. If you think about it, imagine walking into a place where you feel fully known. They know your flaws, you know theirs, and you feel loved, and you feel believed in. And someone says, I trust in you. I've got your back. They're honest, they're approachable. They're real with you. You hold each other accountable when things don't go well. Why? Because you have trust. But then you also feel empowered. That's saying, understand that God didn't just call me to start a church, but God called his people. And that we are his body and that we have many different functions, right? And that we're best when we live out our calling, live out of our gifting to save the world, not us doing it, but through Jesus Christ, right? That as a body, as a church, we need each other. And that honestly is what allowed us to not only survive through a pandemic, through multiple locations, through all these challenges of early days of church planting, but rather see God continually show up and to see true genuine love for each other and to see that when you succeed I succeed and vice versa and so that when you have this gifting it's not about comparison right it's not about pride it's not about trying to make it to the top of some list that doesn't even exist right it's like we live in an age where people keep trying to build their towers with other people's blocks yeah right in order for me to be successful you have to fail yes when that's not the God I read in the Bible, right? Our battle is not against flesh and blood, right? And someone asked me when we were starting to plant a church, like, do you need another church here in the Valley? I said, no, we need a thousand. That's right. Like we need more and more churches, right? It's not a zero sum game. No, it's that when we as a body can lift each other up with we as pastors and faith-driven leaders can lift each other up and that there's trust there and there's empowerment there, man, there's no telling what God can do. can't do. Dude, this is so good. Can I ask case studies? Yeah. Can we go there? Yep. Let me just throw scenarios at you. And, um, this is a matrix that you use. What would you do based on that matrix to solve that problem? Yep. Play that game. Yep. All right. I wish we had like texting right now. I'd like texting your question, but we don't. So here's my questions. Um, so first one is imagine you have a ministry that's struggling under a particular leader And you got to make a decision around that leader. Like, man, is this not the right person? Is this person needing coaching? But you're noticing that every other ministry is doing well, but this one ministry is really suffering, hurting. I feel like I get text messages all the time about this exact question. Like,

SPEAKER_00: 28:49

what do I do?

SPEAKER_01: 28:51

How would you, through the lens of this grid, start to move towards that problem to see that ministry start to grow healthy?

UNKNOWN: 28:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 28:59

So one thought that I've learned over the years that's helped me, that maybe it's going to help somebody out there, is that address the person, attack the issue, not the other way around. Okay, explain that. So we live in a culture, like whether it's politics or social, that as soon as you disagree with somebody, right, it's personal, and you go after the person, and then the issue is whatever it is. But when you can embrace the humanity of the person, right, and you assume the best, and instead of getting confrontational, you just get curious, right, that's probably the best way I'd say it, is that when there's an issue, instead of like rising up, like, okay, it's time to fight. Like if it's against evil, 100%, right? But a lot of times these conflicts are things within the church, right? They're judgment calls, there's processes, there's this is your making, those are the things. When you understand that that person has been made in the image of God and that they have value and that there's something going on in their life or in their systems where you have, if you can get to that issue, right? And you share, hey, I see what you're doing. You're making a difference. Here's this man. We wouldn't be where we are without you. God, I love you. I love you too. That's awesome. Help me understand what's going on here. That's a question you would ask. Help me understand. Help me understand. Right? Okay. And so, because now, now it's not about the person. It's about whatever the issue is. Help me ask that question the right way. So let's just pretend worship is terrible. Like it's falling apart. You got the wrong leader. I'm just laughing because we got two worship leaders. We got two worship leaders Hypothetically speaking. Hypothetically, if you're worshiping, you're sucked. Let's say worship is way off, and they were in the room. They're giving nooks right now. They're patting themselves on the back. No, just to give you guys crap. But pretend it's worship, and maybe you think... I don't know, like maybe practices should be happening or the team should be working a little harder, like whatever it is you think the issue is, but Sunday they're showing up and they're stopping mid-song. It's a train wreck. How are you asking that question in that context? Just hypothetically. So the idea there, this is where trust and empowerment go together. And so what I've learned is the best way to handle conflicts is actually beforehand to get clarity around expectations. I would define, and it's not original to me, but I would say I would define frustration as the gap between expectation and experience. So if you have an expectation up here and the experience is downhill The level of that gap is where the frustration exists, right? And so you have to start by asking yourself, have I communicated my expectation of what success is? Because if you've got the team to agree upon that, now you can say, hey, our vision is this. I saw this, right? Whatever it is, like you stopped in mid song. Help me understand what the issue is. Like, I'm just curious. Like, I want to know, like, I trust you. You have that heartbeat. We, we, we believe in the same God. We're after the same things. So. In your opinion, where is that coming from or how does that accomplish that? Yeah. And because then if they share that, right, and you're listening, and the other key too is to listen to understand versus listening to reply. Okay. Dude, you're like the king of banger one-liners, by the way. Like if we don't slow you down, like you just dropped gold and people are going to miss it. Can you explain that phrase a little bit? So much in leadership and honestly in relationships in general, right? is this will be for someone's marriage right now, okay? I understand husbands. I learned from experience, okay? And so because I'm a preacher, convincer, like let's go, let's talk. I'm like, while you're sharing your heart, like if I'm not careful, like I'm just slowly building up my artillery to respond, right? Instead of, okay, you're saying this, where is that coming from? What's underneath that? right the issue is a five but you're coming at it like an eight what where's that there's something probably more there right and if i can get to that issue of the heart i connect with that then we can go through the journey together versus you got walls up i got walls up going through right and so if you actually healed my marriage bro like i like no it's so good so um so if you can understand where someone's coming for you might still do disagree, by the way. It doesn't just mean just let things go. That's why having the hard conversation is actually the loving thing to do. Which is one of your principles. You want to actually get down to the last 10% thing that nobody's saying out loud or that they are feeling. You want to unearth that. You're digging for gold there. What is the core issue? What is going on in your heart? And your listening to understand principle applies to that. because if I am just building up what I want to say next rather than being genuinely intrigued in that person's understanding of the situation, I'm going to miss the opportunity to help coach them towards what success could look like. Am I understanding that right? When you build that rapport, it allows you to come alongside that person and now you're taking a journey together. But you've got to understand where that person coming from so that you can share your heart behind that too there's a real funny story again movie sports guy in the 2012 Olympics Anthony Davis was just coming out of college he was a top player in college and he gets to go on the dream team I mean imagine that he's all of a sudden hitting the floor with Kobe Bryant LeBron KD right all these guys right they're in an early game they're playing I think Nigeria they're up by like 60 right and coach goes Davis you're in And so he goes up to the scores table and then all of a sudden he's walking back to the bench with his head down and everyone's really confused. And so he's like, what are you doing? He's like, coach, I'm sorry, I can't get in the game. Why? He's like, I forgot to put my jersey on. He had put his warm-up jersey on. Oh, this is a true story. This is a true story. Dang. Anthony, you can probably Google the image. We can find it and put it in later. But there's an image of Kobe Bryant looking in Anthony Davis' jersey and making fun of him to no end. Dang. Because here he was. He made the Olympic team, but he couldn't get in the game because he didn't put the jersey on. That is insane. And so the reason I say that is in all of our excitement of ministry and systems and processes and weekend services, before any of that happens, we've got to put on the Christian jersey. Are you being Jesus and modeling that servant transformative leadership for your team? Because if you do that, they're going to be more apt to listen and have conversations with you. basics of the faith. Authenticity, love, compassion, interest in the other. Like these things we oftentimes overlook for the sake of like, oh, I want to win. And actually we don't even have permission to play. It's so good, dude. Like one final thought there too, if you think about it, if you think, well, they're not ready, right? The reality is we're not ready. And we never have been. And yet God moved in us anyway. Like he still gave us the keys. Like, Are you familiar with Air Force One? Oh, yeah. Did you know that Air Force One actually isn't the plane? Okay. Air Force One actually isn't the plane that the president flies on. It's actually the call sign for any plane that holds the president. Oh, okay. So if the president flies on a little Cessna, all of a sudden that Cessna becomes Air Force One. Yeah. It's a call sign. Now think about the eternal connection. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. Air Force One is the call sign of the president in the presence of the president on board. Yeah, that's good, bro. For all believers and leaders. that are out there, that you have been empowered with the Holy Spirit, the same spirit that spoke the world into existence, that conquered death itself. And then Jesus tells his disciples, it's going to be to your advantage that I'm going away. And I'm going to give you the power of the spirit. So if God empowered us with the very call sign of his image and his nature, dude, what can we do as the church? Yeah. Yeah. And the beautiful thing is like, we have access to his Holy spirit and can be his agents. We can have his call sign. You know, if we don't walk in the power of the Holy spirit, we're not air force one just by virtue of showing up. We need to like embrace our call to live like Jesus, to walk in the power of the Holy spirit. in his way to live by the power of his spirit, how much more as leaders do we need to live into the power of the Holy Spirit for leadership? All right, dude, I want to ask one more, not case study question, but this one more directed at your experience with this. Dude, I've watched your team. I've met with some of the folks that have served under you, led next to you, and it's an incredible team and you've unlocked them. How have you broken barriers? How have you overcome obstacles using this framework of leadership? Do you have any examples of where you've helped your team reach a goal or break through a difficult season by applying some of these principles? Yeah, so we've... you know, I, I would, what we try to do with us and I think could apply because we aren't the garden, right. Or Echo's like, did you, you guys are killing it and like launching mega churches and it's awesome. Praise Jesus for that. That was also not our story. Okay. We're cleaning up floors out of bars. Okay. That was our start. And so a little different start and I love it, but, but what we had was that, um, what I would say is this realization, right? To start where you are, to use what you have. Come on. And to do what you can. Can you say that one more time? Cause that's fire. So that wherever you are in ministry, whatever size you have, whatever to start where you are, to use what you have and to do what you can. And so for us, it was like, who's the one leader we could invest in? Who is the one musician that you think Scott was the, Opportunity that, hey, you know what? Why don't you pick the song this week? Why don't you do this thing? You know what? Let's try to launch this Bible study. Why don't you do this? How can I help you? What do you need to launch this ministry? And so when we think about it, and you give that opportunity to people, and they'll rise up to the occasion. When we finally did get into our building, for example, the person that vetted our six-figure AV install was like 23, right? You're serious. Our worship leader was there and he, now I walked alongside of, but he vetted all the vendors, went through, did everything right. Came through, made a proposal and it was so detailed. And I was like, yeah, it looks great. Let's do it. And you didn't make it on ChatGPT. No, no. But how that looks on a practical basis, right? And so transition out. So now like with Brandon, who's in the room here, right? I'm like, what is God doing in his heart? How is God leading him, right? And I'm trusting God's gifting in him in set planning. So we work side to side to work. where it matches in, you know, language and theology. So we want to think, but I'm letting him lead the way on that, right? And then team building, because that's his gifting and skillset, right? And same thing with our, within facilities, right? Or in our teams or in building men's and women's ministries and groups, right? That we've seen so many groups take off in a church that's smaller in size because we've empowered leaders to own them. Actually, I know something about you. Can you share that? Was it appropriate, the percentage of people you have in groups? Yeah, so last year we did a study, and we actually had just at or more people in groups than we had on Sunday morning attendance. Pause, dude. That is unheard of. You have at one time had more people in groups than on a Sunday morning. It's like a pipe dream, dude. I don't know if pastors are allowed to say that. Or describes our Sunday morning. No, dude. No, like that should be everybody's goal because people in community become disciples of Jesus. That should be everybody's goal. And it says something about the kind of people that you've raised up as group leaders, that people want to be part of that, that they want to invite friends that haven't even been on a Sunday. That's insane, dude. That's insane. Well, and I think leadership is one of those things that when you see it, it's hard to define, but you know it. I would say even looking at what you're doing at the garden, part of what you're seeing success in is because you're built trust, because you're so real with people, because you motivate them, inspire, lift them up, and then say, go do it with Miguel and others. I think you and I both agree in the sense that if it's just us, this thing ain't working at all. Don't smile. mile too hard over there. But So to flip it, just for a question on you, can you think of a time where you put trust in someone or maybe someone put trust in you in the early days where it really impacted you and led you to where you are today? I think that if I got a specific example, I'll say it, but right now the way I would think of that is our entire team is a bunch of very high-level leaders, some of them well beyond my leadership capacity or knowledge base in all of the area. in our church. So to call Miguel out, uh, Miguel's ability to both persuade coach and care for people and multiply himself goes far beyond anything I have ever done or could ever do. Um, yeah, he, he came, I actually recruited him out of apple and apple is one of those places that you don't typically recruit pastors from. Uh, but we saw potential in him. My father-in-law, um, could tell by his outfit that he was a musician. Anybody probably could. He just has that look. He's like, you play music. And he's, he tried to play it down. And my father-in-law early before, you know, really early days search. I think we were just about to launch. I had just launched, um, persuaded him to jump into the worship team. And as we watched the way he just interacted with people, he brings an energy to the room. I mean, you can feel it. And, uh, I don't, I knew, I didn't know at the time that he had ministry experience as a intense, effective church out in California, but we sensed in him high potential. And so eventually as our team would talk about him, I just knew like, there's something special here. I remember my executive pastor saying like, Hey dude, I think you need to get to know Miguel because I'm pretty sure he's going to be on staff as a pastor at some point. I

SPEAKER_00: 45:03

was like, all right.

SPEAKER_01: 45:04

And so pressing in, I could feel it in the conversations. I remember when we were going through a worship transition, asking him just tons of questions and figuring out that we needed to make a major transition in worship. And all of that came from, one, seeing potential in somebody who wasn't your typical ministry person, didn't look like a pastor, didn't smell like a pastor, wasn't in ministry at the time, was working for the Antichrist, Apple itself. But as I got to know him, I was like... I unlocked, we, we through questions and listening realized this guy has more insight about our worship and the we do. And so leaning into that, um, eventually empowering him. I think one of the interesting things with the Miguel with he's a young Eagle, right? Like here's a younger guy than me who has higher ceiling than I do, uh, could be pretty intimidating for most guys. Like, Oh, I don't want to unlock this guy. He's better than me. Uh, you just stay over there for a while. Um, but, uh, but it's been an interesting process because I've had to speak into him. him stuff that he didn't... He would have... to continue on Apple. He would have been happy to take a leadership role. He would have been happy and he's even scared of the pastor word. Like I see future church planter in him. I see pastor in him. And, um, and so just, uh, continuing to lean into that and not, not lean away from somebody who intimidates me, but to lean in and to, uh, give God permission to do more in our church than, um, I could do on my own. So yeah, raising him up. I think all of our team recognizes that they have skill sets, giftings, communication abilities that go beyond mine. And I think one of the things that the Lord has allowed me to do is to see potential in others that they don't see in themselves and to see, um, and to not be intimidated by people that are more gifted than me. My wife is more gifted, has more giftedness in her pinky finger than I do in my entire body. Photographer, entrepreneur, uh, we unlocked just allowing her to be entrepreneurial in our church. So she started, I And what I love about that is just that already in just those last few minutes, you're talking about leaning in and potential and empowering and lifting up. One of the things that was a big switch moment for me in those early days is that I think sometimes as pastors, as leaders, we go into ministry and we almost feel like we have people. But if you have people, you can lose people. And it's personal and it's difficult. And then But when you think about it, whose church is it? Is it your church or God's church, right? And so what God kind of wrestled out of me, or is continuing to wrestle out of me, like present time, but helps a lot, is that when I take my hand like this, and it's not that the church has people, but rather we're called to help people. And God, whoever you've placed in my hand, I'm going to encourage, I'm going to love, I'm going to lift up and help them take the next step of faith. And that the win, right, if you think about Ephesians 4, right, is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. And what that allows you to do is that it takes the threat away. And instead there is joy. That's right, man. That if they are successful, God gets the glory and that's what matters most. And really the success or fruitfulness in church isn't me using my gift to its fullest extent and having the biggest possible room, hear me use my gift or something creepy like that. The biggest, some of the best fruit in your church is actually unlocking the potential of others and having a heart and eyes to see that. And this is what I see in what even your framework describes is that I'm always looking for how I could be part of their story, not how they could be part of mine. How can I unlock what God has? You know StoryBrand? Yep. Sorry, we're going to take this a little longer than we should. So what's his name? Donald Miller, writer, recreated himself. Now he's like using story to help entrepreneurs and business leaders, CEOs and stuff like that. And one of his frameworks, his basic framework is like everybody's living their their own story. And you need to understand as the business or leader or whatever church, how you fit into their story. And when you understand your role in their story, rather than how they fit in your story, then you can actually add value to them and they'll whatever, buy your product, be part of your thing, um, yeah, like you can connect with them. You can connect with potential clients and so forth. So how I see that in the church, you know, he, he talks about, um, everybody is Luke Skywalker and you got to position yourself as Yoda. Yeah. That makes sense. Definitely. So I'm not the main character. You're the main character and I'm the Yoda observing your life going like, Oh, I see how you could get through this struggle that you're facing. Can I help you with that? And then and only then will you attract people. Then and only then. Because really, I think he's just drawing from the gospel. I'm not here to serve me. I'm here to serve the king. And you're on the king's big story. How can I be positioned to serve you? Well, it's the difference of how do you enter the room? Do you enter the room saying, here I am? Or do you enter the room going, there you are? Right?

SPEAKER_00: 50:29

your one lighters or

SPEAKER_01: 50:31

something. I want to go in for John now. But like when I walk in, right? Like, because the reality is, is like Nolan has got more coolness, right? In his pinky finger, right? Or that mustache than all of us, but I got more mustache. You got, you got a lot of stash, right? That's, that's part of the growth strategy of the garden. And, but the thing is, is like the realization that I'm not held accountable for your race, right? And so if I come in and And looking, I mean, Jesus came not to be served, but to serve, right? And so if we come in and he looked at all the disciples, and if you think about the disciples, like Doubting Thomas gets a bad rap, right? But if you ever look at the verses right before the Great Commission, right before the Great Commission, everyone knows like, go, therefore make disciples, baptize them, the whole line. Right before that, on the mountain, it says the disciples were there. Some worshiped and some doubted. Who's doubting Jesus at that moment? The resurrected Jesus. Jesus. Yes. And then at the same time, that's strangely comforting because God saw that and said, I'm still going to use you baby to build the kingdom, to flip the world upside down. Yeah. I love it. It's plan A. There's no plan B. Yeah, dude. So how much more can we empower our teams, people that God's given these frail, normal, everyday, ordinary disciples and be positioned in their life to empower through empowerment and trust what God and unlock what God has for them and ultimately for his mission and his kingdom. Do a good word, man. Appreciate you. Hey, how can people follow you? You're speaking pretty soon at a conference. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, so coming up at S2, I'm going to be leading a breakout there to teach this trust empowerment matrix. And so we're going to go deep dive into that matrix of how you can actually implement those concepts into your team and try to unlock some of the potential in your own teams and maybe break through any barriers you're going through. And so you can catch up with me there. That's coming up in November. Otherwise, you can just directly email me at jkregel, so J-K-R-A-G-E-L there at missiongrowthchurch.com or that's our church right there. So go ahead and visit missiongrowthchurch.com and we'll get connected. Cool. We'll link where you can follow him, connect with him, email him, all that in the show notes. So go ahead, click on those show notes, click on there. You'll also see a link to S2 and we'll get you connected with John at S2. It's one of the best conferences I think that exists in the state of Arizona. I'll be there. Our team will be there. We'll see you next time. Seriously, man, thank you for driving out. Thank you for what you're doing for the kingdom. I honor you. Again, you were one of the, I mean, you were one of the only dudes who I knew in Arizona. You called me the first day I moved here. And we truly as a church and as a team would not be where we are today without you, without your leadership and your wisdom. So appreciate you, man. Appreciate you jumping on the podcast. Thanks, man. We love you guys. All right. See you guys.