Strong Ground, Part Two: Grounded Confidence & Coaching from the Core

In this follow-up to our first episode on Strong Ground by Brené Brown, Christy and Ken dive deeper into what it means to coach from grounded confidence rather than from protection. They reflect on how this shows up in real coaching relationships and explore powerful concepts like the “line of fear,” the shift from armored to daring coaching, and the impact of power dynamics in the coaching space.

You’ll hear Christy share insights from the ICF Converge Conference and Ken’s breakthrough moment with the Empowerment Triangle. Together, they unpack how presence, humility, and curiosity shape meaningful coaching—and how coaches can support themselves in staying grounded.

Key Takeaways:

• The “line of fear” and how it shapes our leadership presence
• Moving from armored to daring coaching
• The power differential in coaching: Are you rescuing or partnering?
• Self-compassion and nervous system awareness as grounding tools

Whether you're early in your coaching journey or deepening your mastery, this episode offers both reflection and practical wisdom to support your growth.

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Transcript

Christy Stuber: 0:11

Welcome to the Coaching Book Club podcast, where books don't just teach, they transform. I'm Christy Stuber and I'm here with my friend and co-host, Ken McKellar. Each episode invites you to move from reflection to real world coaching presence one page at a time. So whether you're walking the dog brewing your coffee, or driving between sessions, we're so glad you're here. Today we're continuing our exploration of Brene Brown's Strong Ground. This time focusing on how we lead and coach from the core. Because coaching is leadership and the kind of leadership we practice matters. Are we coaching from protection or from grounded confidence? So in this episode, we'll offer a grounding overview of the book, share a few of the key takeaways that stirred something in us, and reflect on how these ideas are showing up in our coaching. Whether you've read the book or just listening in, there's something here for you. Hey Ken.

Ken McKellar: 1:04

Hey, how you doing?

Christy Stuber: 1:06

Good. So part two, how you feeling about a part two? Our first time?

Ken McKellar: 1:14

Yeah. This is the first time doing part two I, I can't wait to hop on this because there's a lot in part one that didn't get get to so we'll. We'll play with this and see how we do. We may have a couple more part twos, but definitely I'm ready.

Christy Stuber: 1:30

Yeah. Well, what do you think about this idea of grounded confidence and coaching from the core?

Ken McKellar: 1:39

Well, bridging off of what we talked about last time, I think that, um, I, I think that like coaching has its framework, but really when you have the opportunity. To put in perspective that you're sitting across from another human being. There's two human beings talking and sharing. And as a coach, providing enough of that trust, safety, rapport, connection, and respect the high five of a coaching relationship. I think really, really says it all. What? Why you laugh? You can't see her. She's laughing at me folks.

Christy Stuber: 2:34

I'm appreciating how, how easily you're slipping in your high five into our conversations. It's great. Um, well, let me slip in. I was in, um, in San Diego last week at the ICF Converge Conference, and I got to hear Janet Harvey speak about, um, going from competency to mastery and to me that's paralleling what is being talked about here in terms of grounded confidence coaching from the core and what you just said about, it's about relationships. When we look at, um, the idea that, um, skills are temporary. Relationships are forever. And so as important as the competencies are, and we need to learn them and understand 'em, embody them. If we're only thinking them as like tick boxes that need to be checked, then they're only skills if we think of them in terms of the relationship with our client. That's where the transformation, the magic happens that you referenced in your high five. And that happens when we are fully aware of who we're, who we are and how we're showing up as coaches.

Ken McKellar: 3:43

Yeah. And, and being on being okay. Allowing ourselves to show up that.

Christy Stuber: 3:51

Yeah.

Ken McKellar: 3:52

Now you mentioned Janet Harvey like. Who introduced you to Janet Har I, you know, I, I keep, heck, keep on bringing this up, but I mean, how'd you, how'd you learn about Janet Har

Christy Stuber: 4:05

Well, I know the right answer here is you. I think I'd heard of her before you, however, but I of course will give you the credit there, my friend. Thank you very much. You're very welcome. So what is your takeaway? What is your first takeaway from this book?

Ken McKellar: 4:20

Well, I mean, the, the biggest thing for me in this book. Like a mic drop moment, like a holy cow. Like a who we, like A good, good lamo, right was the whole above the line in the empowerment triangle and below the line of the drama triangle. Now, I knew about. The Drama Triangle study that love the work, right? And very familiar with Head, right? The, the Empowerment Triangle. But what I didn't have was that line, right? That fear right there. There's fear right above the line of fear and below the line of fear. And when Brene Brown, she talked about that and then gave some illustration of how that shows up. I'm like, he really is. I was joking last time about how she wrote the book for me, but that right there, man, that got my why. I get it. You know, this is what's showing up. This is what, this is what's stopping me. I'm below the line. So as I'm below the line, I am looking at how I am the victim or the prosecutor, or even showing up as the rescuer, right? But now how do I find my way above that line that Coach challenger, or even creator, how do I find my way? How do I take that pause? Right there. That's all I got. I mean, I read that chapter like four or five times, and then I read other authors. I read, uh, Chris West's book. I read. I mean, I, ah, I just, I love that. So to me, that was the end all and be all. I mean, every book has this moment right there. That was a very empowering moment for me. It shined a light. On some shadows that I didn't wanna have nothing to do with, and that reference gave me the courage to start taking the peak. Now I know that was a monologue, but, but that meant something to me for real.

Christy Stuber: 6:46

Yeah. It, it feels foundational to the other. Focus areas that she mentions further in the book. Knowing where we are above or below the line then tells us are we showing up armored? Are we doing power over? And I wanna talk about some more of these perhaps in our rest of our conversation. I. I always like seeing this in different ways. I first learned it in a neuroscience class. This idea of over the line or above the line or below the line and, and what's happening in the brain related to fear, stress, all of that is being, all those emotions that we're feeling are coming from a chemical change in our brain because we feel like we're under threat, and then we're showing up either above the line or below the line. I had a mentor once who said to me, our clients hire us for our nervous system, and, and I think about that a lot in my coaching, right? I can only be a present coach when my nervous system is appropriately regulated mm-hmm. When my nervous system is off. I'm fearful, I'm stressed, I'm scared. Then I'm gonna show up below the line to my clients, which will only, um, maybe get in the way of their growth. And so, you referenced this a little bit in the last episode. I love that the antidote to, um, to feeling overwhelmed is nothingness. And I think that also connects back to what you said about that break, like that pause. What do you give yourself when you notice that you are below the line? Yeah. What, so what do you do? Like, how do you know when you're below the line and what do you do to help yourself get above it?

Ken McKellar: 8:50

Well, I like the language that Brene Brown has, has given me in terms of. The line being fear.

Speaker 3: 8:58

Mm-hmm. So

Ken McKellar: 9:00

it's not getting over the line of fear, it's just getting to another aspect of how I'm relating to fear that's going on. So understanding what I want outta this situation is helps me out a lot. You know, I have 10-year-old kids that they do some amazing. Stuff really creative in some of the outrageous stuff that they can get into. And some of the stuff I'm operating out of fear because they can hurt themselves. Like when you standing on the balcony, like, uh, you know, come on, that, that scare. So really taking that pause and what do I want? You know, how do I want. Our relationship to be after this is over. So you can take that for the kids, you can take that interpersonal relationship, you can take that even for work. And in the coaching relationship, it goes to kind of what you were just saying here is how do I stay steady? How do I, um, allow myself to be there for them, be present, for them to be authentic, for them to be vulnerable with them. And that comes with. So I'm doing all that before the session starts, you know, and once again, the, the new competencies, if you haven't read 'em, check 'em out. Not the new competencies. They're not new, but they, they made some, um, some changes to 'em and added onto it. And a lot of it talks about how you show up as a coach. What are you doing for yourself as a coach? What are you doing for yourself so that it allows you to show up the best way you can for the people that's surround you. For me that is being intentional about how I wanna show up for that moment.

Christy Stuber: 10:56

Thank you. Thank you. It leads a little bit into one of the takeaways that I had. Which is a bit more specific in, um, in Brene's language. She calls it armored leadership versus daring leadership. And when you take how she describes those two, you can apply them pretty directly to coaching. So if we think about armored coaching occurring when you're below the line, this may look like, um, feeling like I need to know everything. Hiding behind my credentials. Well, I'm a PCC. I'm an ACC, and sort of like, but not, but not doing the work maybe, or not understanding what that fully means. I was like that. I was like, gotta get the ACC , gotta get the PCC, but didn't fully understand the importance of the competencies that I was demonstrating for client growth, not just for. The credential, and we talked about that a little bit last episode. So again, I'm not poo-pooing the credentials in any way. They certainly are an acknowledgement of accomplishment, but like really understanding them so that you are embodying them. And then thinking about, um, daring coaching as being more above the line, right? More curious, more humility, which is all about learning. And the courage to stay in not knowing. I don't need to know the answers. I don't need to know anything about my clients. I trust that they are whole, resourceful and creative and will come up with their solutions. What do you think?

Ken McKellar: 12:38

I, I mean, I'm right with you. I'm right with you on, on all that. I mean, it's showing up. You know, I can't versus I choose or you're wrong, versus here's reality. Or even let me fix you versus what's your next step? Uh, I mean,

Speaker 3: 13:05

where's the power, right? Mm-hmm.

Christy Stuber: 13:10

That's another takeaway for you from the book. That

Ken McKellar: 13:13

was a mic. I mean, that. That line. Yeah. Alright. Right there. I mean, yeah. We can go to other takeaways that you may have because that right there, I mean there's some other stuff that you said later on in the book, but I mean, you know that right. There was such a reminder that, hey man, you don't have to let fear stop you. Right. And if, if, if fear is in. The business of stopping you, then where are you? How are you showing up? Right? If fear stopped me, then I'm below the line, right? So how can I get more creative about how I'm looking at this? Mm-hmm. I mean, I mean, there's a stop sign, but let's proceed. Like the directions of the stop sign says to us it's not stop and just sit there. People behind you, ho horn, whatcha doing? Whatcha doing? That's not what stops. Sign means stop. Sign means stop. Look both ways and proceed with caution. So I stop, is this what I want to do? Does this make sense for me? Is this the reality that I, I wanna pursue on? Okay, I do or I don't. I wanna make a left turn or right turn and go straight and then proceed. Taking note at what my reality is telling me versus what my fear is telling me, and, and, and, and even my fear speaks on what line is it coming from above, below? Fear is always riding shotgun.

Christy Stuber: 14:56

I mean, we were, we evolved for that. We need fear to keep us alive and safe. We need to be aware of what the threats are around us. And then when we, our brain, um, identifies that threat or potential threat, that's when we have, we go under the line. We can start to hopefully catch that and make some choices. Um, the other one I'll just mention quickly before we wrap up is one we touched on in the first episode and is also I think a result of where are you below or above the line, which is the idea of power over. Or power with to and within. And um, so Rene writes, power over is a desperate attempt to maintain a fragile ego. And I would say our desperate attempt to maintain a fragile ego comes from fear, right? We're fearful that we're not gonna be seen a certain way. So we go below the line and that looks like power over, and there is a power differential in coaching. And there can be, and I think we need to be aware of that. And so when I think about what does power over look like for me in a coaching relationship, and it could be some subtle control. You know, maybe I'm steering a session where I think it needs to go, not where the client has said it should go, but they want it to go. Um. Rescuing discomfort. Oh, my client looks uncomfortable, I should jump in and help them out, rather than like sit in their com discomfort and coming with their own solutions. And so thinking about what does power over look like in coaching? And instead what is power with, to and within? And, um, defining that for ourselves based on the competencies, right? Power with invites partnership. We're in this together. Neither one of us is ahead of the other or over the other. I don't, I don't know any of the answers or the questions I'm asking 'cause it's not my, my session to learn from. It's my clients. What do you think about all that?

Ken McKellar: 17:13

Well, just going back to that, that, that, that line, right. Um, of fear as, as a coach. Allowing my client to go wherever they want. They may be, they may be above, below that line, right? So now if they're below that line, like, what role am I taking if I'm rescuing? There we go. There's that power, that power right there. Um. If I'm making judgment, if I'm steering, like, because they're below the lines back on, I mean, you got all this, you got, you got the house, you got the car, you got all, all this and, and, and, and what do you, what do you, right? So I'm coaching from that space is like, okay, so even recognizing, okay, there's that, that line of fear and people that we work with get to be where, where they want, where they are, you know, meet them where they are and accept. Who they are is my thinking.

Christy Stuber: 18:24

Yeah. And so I'm gonna take it to my, um, what I'm gonna start doing in my practice, or I'm gonna remember to keep doing in my practice, which is, which has been one of my biggest gifts over the last few years. And that's compassion and self-compassion. I notice when I wanna compare to others, I need to use self-compassion to bring myself back to myself. And when I notice my client in discomfort and being below the line rather than jumping into rescue, what I've done, um, that's worked for me. It may work for others, is just sitting in that, but I can't just sit. So I'm breathing and um, there's a practice called compassionate breathing where I imagine in my breaths, I'm sending compassion to my client through the, through the screen, right? So they might be uncomfortable. I don't need to rescue. I can give them some compassion energetically. Maybe that does something, maybe it doesn't. What I know for certain that it does is it helps me stay grounded in my feet, so I'm not tempted. To, to join them below the line. What are you taking away for your practice?

Ken McKellar: 19:41

Um, but wait second, did we read a book about that, that, that compassionate breathing, didn't that come up in one of the recent ones?

Christy Stuber: 19:50

Can we read so many books? Probably, maybe. But is that, I can't remember which one. Listeners, if you know which book we read that I came up in, let us know.

Ken McKellar: 19:59

Um, what I'm taking away is this whole ideal of unity and working together and as I support others, really leveraging on the people that support me. Whether it's, you know, through my reading, through my supervisor, um, Maureen, lot of, lot of wealth of knowledge, um, yourself as far as our conversations around these books. But I mean, taking that in, first of all. Being grateful that I have a community, because I remember coaching without this, when I first started, I didn't have any of this. It was just me, the three of us. It was me, myself, and I showed up, and when he wanted, showed up late often. That's all I had. And, and, and, and, and looking at man, how I, how I have grown as a coach, how I have grown as a human being. Utilizing the supports of the people that I come in contact with verbally, as well as the people that I come in contact through their writing. Your, your what? What's your super, your, your supervisor trainer's name, da Damian.

Christy Stuber: 21:27

Hmm. Damian Goldvarg. Mm-hmm.

Ken McKellar: 21:29

Yes. Like the, like he's putting stuff out there in the world. He don't even know how much he's touching me. You know Reggie, right? He's putting stuff out there in the world. He don't even know how he's touching me, but just utilizing that and just being grateful that I have access to folks like that.

Christy Stuber: 21:46

Yeah. Again, I'm gonna thank you for calling in the community that we have around us. 'cause I remember when I first started coaching full-time, it was. 2020. And it was amazing because I felt very connected to people all over the world talking about very much the same things, the, the uncertainty of the global pandemic and stress and anxiety that came along with that. And I was also here in my house not really connecting with other coaches. And where I've seen the biggest growth and confidence occur in my life is when I have. Gone out there and talked to other coaches, peers, mentors, supervisors, coaches are my favorite people. I just love talking to them. I learned so much about myself. So thank you again for bringing them into this conversation today. And on that note, that wraps up part two of strong Ground. So from Power with and within and over to above and below the line. Lots of like movements, huh? With within Albert, above below. Uh, Brene's work reminds us that coaching is leadership, and leadership starts in how we relate to ourselves. Ground and confidence isn't about control. It's about calm, courage, and connection. And you're already practicing it to all of you listening, every time you stay with discomfort, every time you choose curiosity over certainty every time you model trust. That's what strong ground looks like. If you'd like to take this reflection deeper for yourself and earn CE credit for it, you can download the strong ground book guide in the show notes. You're doing the work. Let's make sure it counts towards your continuing growth. And if this episode resonated with you, follow the Coaching Book Club podcast on your favorite platform, and connect with us on LinkedIn for weekly coaching reflections. Until next time, stay curious. Be gentle with yourself, and happy coaching.