True to You: Coaching with Courage, Clarity, and Boundaries

In this episode of the Coaching Book Club Podcast, Christy and Ken dive into True to You by Kathleen Smith, a powerful guide for staying grounded in yourself while navigating anxiety, expectations, and relationships.

Drawing on Bowen Family Systems theory, they explore how coaches can maintain presence, set boundaries, and resist over-functioning in sessions. They reflect on:

• The difference between mind reading and mind knowing
• What it means to embody self-differentiation
• Three anxiety-driven behaviors coaches fall into: accommodating, acting out, and avoiding

Expect real stories, honest reflections, and practical examples that show how this book can help you coach with more courage and clarity. Whether you’re deep in credentialing or navigating the emotional rollercoaster of coaching, this conversation will help you come home to yourself—and stay there.

Transcript

Christy Stuber: 0:11

Welcome to the Coaching Book Club podcast, the show that empowers coaches through books. I'm Christy Stuber here with my friend and co-host Ken McKellar, and today we're talking about True to You by Kathleen Smith. This book is about how to hold on to yourself and life and relationships without getting lost in the anxiety and expectations of others. Here's what you can expect in this episode. First, we'll start with a quick overview of the book, what it's about, and why it matters to coaches like us. Next we'll break down three key takeaways that stood out to us and share how you can apply these insights to your coaching practice. Finally, we'll explore how these concepts connect to real world coaching challenges and how they can help you build confidence, tackle imposter syndrome, and grow as a coach. Whether you've read this book before. Or hearing about it for the first time, you'll leave with actionable tools to strengthen your skills. Let's get started. Hey Ken.

Ken McKellar: 1:07

Hey. How you doing?

Christy Stuber: 1:09

Good. So what mattered to you about this book?

Ken McKellar: 1:17

I am smiling because I have reading this book. I wanna just give myself a hug. Because I'm All right.

Christy Stuber: 1:26

All righty. I'm glad you feel that way. Well, what about this book told you that you're all right?

Ken McKellar: 1:32

I mean, you know, if you step away from that people pleasing spot of the fence that I usually play volleyball on. Right. And, and then step back and, and just like, damn, they're gone. You, you, you, you all right? You know, as a coach, you all right. You know, as a mentor, hey, yeah. Hey, you all right?

Speaker 3: 1:55

Just do you, boom. You know, I started to talk to myself that way, Hey there.

Ken McKellar: 2:00

And I said, Hey,

Speaker 3: 2:01

I'm doing, I'm doing.

Ken McKellar: 2:03

So that's what I walked away from this book, and I was thinking, wow, if you're a coach, especially if you're out there on your own, if you don't like, have a community. Just being reminded of some of the things that we go through. Because I mean, people as coaches, they give us their stuff all the time, right? And sometimes as coaches, we forget. We forget. Oh, excuse me. This, this belongs to you. You know?

Speaker 3: 2:35

You don't want that, Ken? Well, I don't want it either. You guys blow it away.

Ken McKellar: 2:40

I think this was a really good reminder. Affirmation, confirmation of you are right.

Christy Stuber: 2:50

Hmm. That's lovely. It's, it's very validating. I think I've been studying, uh, Bowen family systems theory, which is what this book is based on for a while, and I'm scheduled for another course to start in a couple weeks. I'm very excited about it, and I appreciate how Kathleen Smith says and reminds us. Our brains are designed to read the room and follow the group. Sometimes we're so good at reading others that we forget to know ourselves, and that's so validating to be reminded that we all do that. That's how we're wired to stay involved in the group. And as I've been thinking about my, my continued path towards my MCC credential, that's been a theme for me of late, how can I fully be myself while also demonstrating ICF competencies? So follow the group. The competencies and make sure I'm being me. Um, Bowen who created this systems theory called this move, uh, from our pseudo self to a more solid one, and that really resonated with me. So I'm wondering what was one of your key takeaways that stood out to you?

Ken McKellar: 4:06

There was quite a few here.

Christy Stuber: 4:07

Mm-hmm. Of them was those was like school seminars worth of Bo wen for me in this book. Yeah.

Ken McKellar: 4:13

Yeah. And then you could just go into bow theory by itself, you know, all. How does Bowen get so much playtime here? You know, sit on Bowen, you know, let, let Kathleen, let Ms. Smith do her thing. Right.

Christy Stuber: 4:28

Murray Bowen, you know, was a, he was a psychiatrist, um, and he was, he came up with this theory that's based in natural systems, which is why I also think it's very validating. I think Kathleen Smith does do an amazing job taking something very academic and complex and boiling it down to something more digestible.

Ken McKellar: 4:44

Right. And I was dealing to the adjustable, digestible piece that she was talking about.

Speaker 3: 4:49

Mm-hmm. So

Ken McKellar: 4:50

you studied this though? This Okay. I'm go ahead and say what my key takeaway was at the beginning. 'cause I'm licking my lips to hear how this, her work applies to bow theory. And do I need to go out and get a Bowen book and, and, and, and read it? Or does Kathleen do it enough justice that I just can chew on that for a while. Okay. One of the things I I like is particularly when it comes to coaching the op mind reading and start mind knowing. I just like that. Mm-hmm. Because as a coach, you're sitting over there doing, you have an opportunity to guess. But you have the answers of the test right in front of you. I'm wondering what you think about that. I wonder how you feel about that, or I wonder what, I wonder what resonates for you on that. Yeah,

Christy Stuber: 5:43

there you go. What a perfect example, right? Of not mind reading and, and asking the question. Um. I also, I loved that one, and I've heard Kathleen talk about this in a couple of different ways. I, I took it a little bit differently than you did, which is I thought about how can I know my own mind? Hmm. So that, wow. I may be trying to mind read with my client. I can stay solid in what I believe. So I'll give an example, might be, um, my client says they want me to give 'em advice. This happens, right? And in my head I'm like, I don't, that's not what coaching is. I'm not gonna give advice and I have my ways and we can talk more about it, but how to kind of like move around that and, and through it and partner around it. And at the end I'll still walk away from that session thinking, I wonder if I disappointed them. 'cause I didn't give them advice. And so the way I wanna turn that around to my knowing is asking myself, what do I believe about advice giving and coaching? How do I want advice giving to show up or not in my practice? Right? So shifts from being pulled in by that client expectation to being anchored in my own stance and my own principles. I think connects to, um, embodying a coaching mindset, right? The more we can stay calm in our own being, the more we can create that space for our clients.

Ken McKellar: 7:20

Yeah. You know, for the record, and, and you can edit this out if you want to, but I'm gonna say it, um. I noticed that over the last couple conversations we had, you just been throwing out those competencies. They've just been dropping just off the tip of your tongue. Like just, just naturally just blowing. You just, just throwing them in there, man. You have embraced the competencies. Oh my.

Christy Stuber: 7:45

Goodnight, Nick. Well, they're for a reason and, and the way my brain works, we think we've talked about this before. The way my brain works is I need to understand why they're there. So I can then, then I can embrace them and then bring 'em into my practice completely and fully and make them my own. So the more I can learn them, the more I can sort of chew on them from different angles, the more I understand what's important about them.

Ken McKellar: 8:11

Folks, if you want to embrace the competencies. Listen to the last three episodes. I guarantee you you're gonna walk away with a special and unique way or relationship with the competencies because Christy Stuber is not playing with those competencies. Um, one of the other things that I really enjoyed about the book, because it in two ways, it kind of hurt my feelings a little bit because it hit home, you know? And. I wanna say this. Express your face when I say this. Um, relationship oriented lives when she talks about that, right? And what she was alluding to was consistently scanning what others think, how others feel about us. How to keep other people happy. And I was like, uhoh, somebody's at my door. Come on in. Hey. Right. Instead of really stepping in and embracing who I am, I am and the challenges. Inviting them, especially when I got into coaching. Um, it about when I met you was a shift from just like worried about what other people think around my coaching and how I coach and I put everybody on a pedestal. I still do because I appreciate them. You know, I, it's not that I, I look, think they, God, I do appreciate them, but the shift was being okay with what, what I think, like, I have something to say here too. And if I don't necessarily agree with what they're thinking, if they don't agree with me, it's a nice opportunity for a conversation and to grow in this craft of coaching. And I think that's the biggest slice of pie that I started to eat on, on. Even though I'm on a diet, I'm still

Christy Stuber: 10:13

that that pie has no calories. So you, you're good. You're good. Yeah. This idea of like responsibility too versus responsibility for, you know, how can, so one of the key concepts in Bowen Family Systems theory is differentiation of self to standing on our own and, and our own beliefs and, um. In an anxious situation, you can be seen as trying to be responsible for other people in coaching. It shows up, you know, managing my client's distress, anticipating their needs, you know, sort of jumping in and, and I've certainly experienced this and my coaching career and I've seen other coaches with it. Um, and again, it makes sense. It's the way we're wired as humans and, and I think what. Self differentiation is about, is how do I be responsible to my client, which means trusting their own capacity and staying curious about their thinking. And so I can stand here and I can pay attention to them where they are. Um, I have an example of a client where I think I was doing this without sort of realizing it. Can I share? Yeah. Oh. What don't put me with a good

Speaker 3: 11:31

time.

Christy Stuber: 11:32

Yeah. This was like early days of the pandemic and I was talking with a client who had gotten to know, and it turned out that she and I had different views of, um, the COVID vaccine and she was not comfortable with it and I could feel my stuff coming up. All of my feelings and beliefs. And, and I was able to stay curious with her and understand more of her point, point of view, her perspective, and so I could stay connected with her. Didn't end up agreeing with her, I don't think she agreed with me, but it was okay because we were curious about each other's point of view, not trying to manage the other person, not trying to take care of anybody. Just genuinely curious and walked away with a, I walked with a different understanding of why somebody might choose the path that she was choosing.

Ken McKellar: 12:24

I absolutely love that. And what I love about that is it gives an opportunity to grow. It's the same way I like to run my supervision. My group supervisions is like, Hey, you know what will give people that space to talk? Right? And if you don't agree with them, instead of focusing on what you do not agree with them about. Focus on what you, what your view, your thoughts. So the rest of the group can take their view, your view and their own view, and they can really try to make something out of it. Right? So it's really taking that person's view and the other person's view in your own view and blending it in and making it work for you.

Christy Stuber: 13:19

Yeah. Right. So not just automatically going along with the first person's point of view and getting sort of caught up in that, but be able to stay steady to then take in what makes sense to you about everyone's and developing your own thinking. Um, can I share my takeaway?

Speaker 3: 13:37

Yeah.

Christy Stuber: 13:38

Because this one also really hit me. So she talks about the, these three responses that people often have to anxiety and maybe feeling excluded. And it's accommodate, act out and avoid. And I feel like I should probably mention that the, the, the key thing about bow and family systems theory is it's all about relationships. And so I read it with this view of my relationship with my client, and I thought about these three responses. And became aware of how they show up in me when I'm feeling anxious about my client relationship or my relationship with my client. And so I, I, I reflected and came up with, you know, accommodating for me. And coaching can look like being over responsible or giving advice to my client. Um, acting out for me may look like, um. Forcing contracting, like wrestling the contract in the beginning of each session with the client before I let them kind of take their, their path, not being flexible with it, which we know is okay, but my brain can get like angry and so I get rigid. To me, I feel like that's acting out and avoiding is staying surface level instead of getting curious. So maybe my client brings something, but I'm just like not real sure about it, so I'll stay kind of on the top instead of going down deep. So avoid, like knowing I can do all these things or they're coming from an anxious place, uh, again, is normalizing and validating. And then as the reminder of like, how can I take that pause to get clear about what, what is my responsibility in this relationship with this person right now? How can I stay steady, maintain my presence so that I don't fall into a habit of accommodating acting out or avoiding? What do you think?

Ken McKellar: 15:37

I, I think it almost comes or starts with awareness. You know? I mean, just being aware of yourself, going back to knowing yourself, right. Choice shows up.

Speaker 3: 15:55

Mm-hmm. Like

Ken McKellar: 15:56

it's just not automatically jumping out is like, okay, I know this about myself. I know that when I get in these situations, I do this and I know I would rather do this. Now I'm in this situation, what do I want to do? And I think that is a beauty right there, is being, if I can elevate myself to the level of choice, the good things has an opportunity to happen.

Christy Stuber: 16:23

Yeah. Yeah. Once we become, become aware of those habits, we can map them out. This happens, I respond like this, this happens. And if I can look at it, then I can say, all right, what can I do differently here to have a different outcome to the situation? Right.

Ken McKellar: 16:37

And that's the beauty of like supervision or mentoring that you can look at and explore what it is that you're doing. Reflect on, hey, when I talk to high level executives, I show up this way.

Speaker 3: 16:54

Mm-hmm.

Ken McKellar: 16:56

I challenge. This way I don't challenge. Right?

Speaker 3: 17:01

Wow.

Ken McKellar: 17:01

Now how do I want to be a more impactful coach? Now I have a choice.

Christy Stuber: 17:08

Yeah. Ken, I don't think you need to go and study Bowen unless you really want to. It seems like you really got a lot out of the book and it's a dense book, so I appreciate your thinking. What do you, what are you gonna take into your own practice from what you read?

Ken McKellar: 17:23

I, I liked her list of 50 ways we over function. Uh, people read the book, you learn the 50, but. Boy, I like when she start rattling off the first 20, I was like, is this all about me? What's going on here? No, I, what, what I'm gonna take away is, um, really this, like I said at the beginning, this was a hug. You know, this is almost like an emotional love letter to Ken to say, Hey. This is what you used to do. This is what you do. Now you have choice on where you wanna go, right? This is a reminder of some of the things that you want to curtail, right? And this is a reminder of what, where you wanna go. So this, this is a book, this May, this may be along that, um, book that I read every year, you know, because it's, it's a reminder that a, it's, it's okay. I'm okay. I am good enough.

Christy Stuber: 18:42

Yeah. There's this reminder that the way we are in coaching is the same way we are in all relationships in our life with our families, with our friends, business partners. It means that there's lots of places to experiment and try different things to break some of these habits and patterns. And what I think I'm taking away from this is how can I get more clear about my coaching so that I can share that with my. Potential clients or onboarding clients from the beginning so they know what to expect. Here's what you can expect from me. Here's my belief. Because I think about those moments when you're about to sign a new client and that anxiety that goes up for me at least, you know, and I fall into that customer service. Sure. Whatever you want. What do you need? I can be that for you. No problem. Absolutely. 'cause I wanna get that client and. That anxiety that gets felt, then perhaps if I can stay responsible to my clients by being clear, steady, and boundaried with, here's what I do, here's what I don't do. They know what they're getting. I wonder what that experiment might change in in my practice. So any final comments, Ken, before we wrap up?

Ken McKellar: 20:11

The Read,

Christy Stuber: 20:13

read book. Yeah. On those wise words. That wraps up our discussion on True to You. We've covered some powerful insights from moving beyond the pseudo self to shifting from mind, reading to mind, knowing. To practicing responsibility two rather than for our clients. We hope these ideas sparked new questions for your practice and gave you tools to stay steady and true in your coaching. Thanks for spending your time with us today. Your commitment to learning and growth is what this podcast is all about. If you enjoy today's episode, make sure to subscribe to the Coaching Book Club podcast on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an episode. And please, we'd love to connect with you on LinkedIn. Follow us there for more coaching insights and updates on upcoming books. And if you have a favorite book that you want us to consider, send us a message. Who knows, it might be featured in a future episode. So thanks for being part of our community. And until next time, happy coaching.