Side Trails Ep. 001 | How Exposure Changes Everything with Wilkine Brutus

What happens when a Haitian kid from West Palm Beach projects grows up to become an international journalist, storyteller, and explorer?

In this inaugural episode of Side Trails, we sit down with multimedia journalist, poet, and Maps & Diaries founder Wilkine Brutus for a conversation about culture, travel, music, personal growth, and the power of exposure.

From growing up in South Florida and visiting Haiti as a child, to living abroad, exploring the outdoors, and building a career in journalism, Wilkine shares how stepping outside of familiar environments can completely transform your perspective on life.

We also dive into:

•  Outdoor exploration and travel 
•  Urban culture and the outdoors 
•  Haitian identity and representation 
•  Journalism and storytelling 
•  Music, hip-hop, and creativity 
•  Personal development 
•  The Four Ps: Purpose, Planning, Persistence, and Patience 

Stories worth exploring between seasons.

Transcript

0:01

All right, ladies and gentlemen, we want to welcome y'all back to another episode of Off the Beaten Path. We've been getting a lot of love and burn on socials and really on the downloads. And today is a is a very special day for me personally. Um, y'all see my guest uh Wilken Brutis. Y'all see my brother, Rob Reezy Henson. And uh the reason why this this particular episode is so special to me is because Wilkin is actually uh a childhood friend of mine. We went to uh school together, uh I don't know what, middle school, right? Yeah, sixth grade, bro. Yeah, we went to middle school together, high school together, and then we flourished to become some amazing stallions. So sexy mammals, yeah, sexy mammals. Without further ado, Wilkin, I want to welcome you on. And if you can introduce yourself for the people, I'd appreciate it. Yeah, thank you for uh bringing me on. I really appreciate it. Uh I was gonna really rot. Um, yeah, I'm a Wilkins Buddhist, I'm a multimedia journalist, I'm the founder of Maps and Diaries, a uh personal documentary platform, and I've been a professional journalist for the past 10, 15 years now. Um and I would consider myself an artist as well, a poet. And so I, you know, uh the Swiss Army knife. Is this so this is kind of like our full circle moment, right? Like with Wilkins. Yes, it is full circle because uh when I was with the Palm Beach Post, I interviewed you guys with Forever Dope. Yeah, um, you know, music production that you guys were doing with some incredible talent. And uh, but those incredible talent were going to incredible engineers to get their music polished, right? And so just the work that you guys were doing at the time, I felt it was necessary uh to bring you guys on and do that feature store on you guys. And it just so happened that I knew Chris for a while. And that's the beauty of having uh a talented network, a proven talented network, because you can have close friends who want coverage on whatever that they're doing, but if the community isn't responding to it, I can't cover you. There needs to be tangible results, you know. Um, so kudos to you two, man. I can't imagine. Thank you. Yeah, that was a great. I love the way you um position the story, you know, of like the voice to the unheard. And uh I thought that was really cool. Oh, so let's rewind a little bit because yeah, man, uh this podcast, I I told you it is um exploritive, and uh one of the things we talk about is is intentional on bridging the gap between the urban and outdoors. And I've said last season, the first season, how we are so close to Miami, right? We all as people, we take when we start growing up, we take different routes growing up. And you know, me and my brother started doing hood rat stuff when we became of like age, uh 16 when we got 15 when we got our car. We were just kind of like, all right, high school basketball is cool, but no, we want to go this way. So we kind of did that, and we didn't really get to explore the outdoors from the time we were, I would even say as early as 12. From the time I was 12 to I don't know, maybe my late 30s. I hadn't done anything out in the outdoors except the beach because we live right here, right? And um you have a similar story uh with coming from an area that is just like uh most most people who live in an urban area like we do, they're not really exposed to this stuff. And over the last year or so, I've seen you on your stories. You're in Arkansas, right? Yeah, I was in Arkansas, yeah, yeah. Um yeah, so you're in Arkansas like visiting uh yeah, hiking. I don't know, you slipped on almost on a on the No, so so that was in the Smoky Mountains. Uh girlfriend and I went hiking in the Smoky Mountains. Uh Arkansas, uh, I have a very close family friend who I consider family, my father figure, Kenny Carswell. Um he and his wife own a farm in Arkansas and 60 plus acres of land. And we're talking ATVs, chickens, goats. I'm doing cartwheels with my shirt off. I'm just being my goofy stuff. Got the whole experience. Yeah, you know, and um uh but to go to the premise of your question, uh, being from a neighborhood, especially coming from parents who were Haitian refugees, uh, who didn't have resources prior to coming to this country, my mom had to get it out of the mud. And that means living in Dyson Circle, which was a project housing dwelling in West Funk. Yeah, and it's concrete jungle. But one of the great things that my mom did for us as kids was she took us to Haiti, and my family is from Juremi, which is a and and in Juremi is a small fishing town, and this is where my direct family is from. And so I got exposed to living outside and fishing with my granddad and doing all those things, uh, and also having a background in sports. So soccer was the first sport I played, of course, a few Haitians. Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here you go. Of course. So you're outside anyway, right? Yeah, but you're not doing the sort of outdoorsy things you would you would ascribe to what outdoorsy things are shooting guns, hiking. But I was outside as an athlete, you know, and and doing certain things outdoors. It wasn't until I got older where you know, I started shooting guns and hiking and doing all of those sort of stereotypical definitions of what being outdoor means. Um, and and so uh when we had moved out of Dyson Circle to this sort of a lower middle class neighborhood, um, that was like a changing class. And when you change your class, you get more exposed to different perspectives of mind, you know, and so that that's what kind of like helped also that was like a gem, you dropped the gem on them. That was yeah, 100%. Exposure does it, and then when I left the country uh and went to South Korea, I mean we could talk about that later. Well, that's when my brain just expanded. So you get exposed and then your brain expands. See, for me, see, and that's beautiful because I've said this before, Rob knows my story. You and I we catch up every now and again. You're familiar with my story. What did for me as far as traveling was in my mid-20s when I got to build my business mentors company, and I was traveling the entire country having conversations with people from different walks of life, and I was like, yo, y'all exist out here, like it's not all like Palm Beach County, it's all like there's people in New York from London, there's people in like it was just mind-bending, and I remember, I remember distinctively when my mind just kind of clicked. It was like, oh, I no longer desire to do it. The whole world out here outside of Palm Beach County. And yeah, I it just clicked for me. I no longer desire to do things that are indicative of my childhood or my teenage years. Like I want to explore, I want to build, I want to professionally network, and that's just on the professional side, on the personal side, it was just like discovering myself at the same time as you know, I did have kids when I was young, my wife and I. And so, all of this, this is this is the conversation because a lot of people in our space, correct me if I'm wrong, Breeze. Yo, 90% of them all grew up outdoors, and it's beautiful. The legacy, like, I don't know what the quantity, huh? No, no, I was gonna say, just to jump in, I think our experience is beautiful as well, because I can understand now, as a South Floridian that grew up in South Florida, Miami is our backyard, right? I was in middle school jumping on the tri-rail, which is the train system, to take me down there and spazzing out, and I have that perspective. And it's you know, I can remember, I'm sure y'all remember uh the migration of people from you know New York and Boston and then also the middle of the country. You know, I remember kids losing their minds from like you know, middle country America. Ohio, what is this place, you know? Like what Florida doing out here, and and it's cool that I that now I I kind of like I would we talked a little Wilkin and I before we hopped on about I get to travel more now, I get to see people. You know, that was the first time I was ever in Minnesota, you betcha. Yeah, you betcha. And I and I un and it just helps my understanding of why these kids and and you know what was normal to me in South Florida, the the clubs and the music and everything was fast to seeing how their their lifestyle was, and it's like, oh I ding, like you said, that that click moment, like I understand now. I can only imagine what it must have been like coming to South Florida. Yeah, so Wilkie, my question to you is yeah, as an adult, what made you want to start exploring more? Like going outside and going to the Smoky Mountains and going to Arkansas and and just living more outdoors. I think, yeah, uh, so I had personal experiences. Uh first of all, I love being outside. I work out outside. I I'm not a big fan of working out in the gym, to be honest with you. I do a lot of sprints and calisthenics outside. Uh love just vitamin D from the sun. I I personally basketball. Hooping. Same God. Hey, I personally love hooping outside. Yeah, uh pick up basketball outside growing up. Um, when your friends, when you're looking for your friends and all of their bicycles at are at this one particular home, yeah, you're probably going there to play Sago or Nintendo, but at some point after you're done, you're going back outside on your bike. As a kid, I used to ride my bike everywhere. I don't know how my mom dealt with that. Like we were gone. Yo, now hold on, real quick. I'm sorry, just to pop the bikes out front in the front yard. Like that was our beacon. That's how you knew. I think sometimes, like, yo, how did we know I was telepath energy? Yeah, yeah. We didn't need no phone. Like, y'all, that is yeah, Rob, to Rob's point, like how I I wish we might have to create a dissertation on that, you know, yeah, at some point. Uh and so to answer your question, Chris, it was already there. And then as you get older, you get more exposed. And then once you get more exposed, you get more mature. And through that maturity, you start cultivating your village, you start analyzing your friends and your network because you do a sort of cost-benefit analysis of who your friends are. And when you develop a growth mindset, that's when you start really analyzing who is benefiting me. Um, and how can I benefit them? And so it becomes the it becomes a you know a reciprocal relationship relationship, it's reciprocity. Value that value out. Yeah, like when once your network likes what you like to do, which is to go outside and now they're offering you suggestions on where to go. Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. And we talked about that uh a little bit, was it yesterday, the day before? Because I'm I'm one of those people, I'm actually very proactive about um about my my my circle. Rob knows this better than anybody. Every six months or so, I'm analyzing my relationships. And yeah, I had a friend, I don't remember who it was. Uh maybe it was a client from the studio said, Oh, so you're hunting now? And I was like, Yeah, yeah, that's what I here's the thing is that people see you with uh a dead animal and a gun and automatically think you're like, I don't know. I don't, I I I don't know, and I don't want to say what it could be because I just don't know, but like there's a shock value there, right? Like, oh, so what you're a hunter now? Yeah, I want to explore the outdoors, and part of that is hunting, the relationships we built, the experience we had last year. Remember, Rob, on our first hunt, like as a collective? Well again, it was mind-blowing, bro. I think a lot of people who live in a city put their moral barometer on what they think the reasonings are behind hunting. So they think you're just gonna hunt and put that animal's head on your wall. But a lot of those folks go to publics and get chicken already prepared for them. You go to the islands, go to the Caribbean, that chicken's head had to get popped off. Yeah, um, and you see it close and personal. Your grandma does it. Hey, am I gonna start judging my grandma? No, that's the meal we're going to eat at that point. And so when you are removed from the natural inclination of human beings, like you can still be a vegan and vegetarian and you know, um decide not to eat meat. That's well, that's okay. But as soon as you start adding your or forcing your own morality, your own moral compass onto other people who choose to decide to hunt for their food, that's when it gets a little dicey. Um, because not every culture, not every uh city, not every town has the luxury to just go to a public's or go to a Wendix or any grocery store, Aldi's, um, and just get their food. It's a luxury. That's a great point. No, seriously, it is. And we've explored this, you know. I'm so this is kind of my reintroduction because my dad had me outside as a kid. He was a hunter, a fisherman, so I saw a lot of that, and you know, it it brings back memories of that. But what's cool about a lot of the people we meet in this outdoor space is they'll pour information into us, yeah. And there's things that I've knowledge I've gained, you know, of the conservation part of it. Yeah, people that are harvesting these animals, like you said, they're feeding their family for sometimes some years. I mean, they they take down a big animal and they harvest it, and they're like, Oh, this is good. My family and I are good on meat for, and it's like, man, you think about that, like you said, if I need meat, I go to Publix, which is a luxury, but it's like, man, there's people that are really living off the land, they're hunting these animals and feeding their families, which is a dope perspective to see. Have a big deer thigh in a deep freezer. Someone told us someone told us they harvested in elk and they have a family fire, but they said that meat lasted us all year long. Unbelievable. They're like, we had so many hundred pounds of meat, and I was like, these are natural human skills. Again, in city life, you're removed from the essence of being a human to that extent. Uh, uh, another thing is also just being, you know, bring up the word exposure quite often. Uh, because if you aren't exposed, you're not challenging your perspective. And that's a lack of having a growth mindset. You have to keep challenging the way in which you think about the world. Uh, whenever I go to Arkansas and I look outside, I actually see the sky versus a thousand street lights. Yeah, I see the stars. Uh, and that does something to your psyche, it does something to the essence of who you are as a human being. Uh, and I think hunting, I think practicing how to protect yourself as a human being, yeah. Um, these are all necessary traits that to some extent is removed from city life. And and I I do want to say that like, you know, my my family, I come from a fan family of immigrants too. I remember seeing my my father, my uncles, um, process hogs, process goats, you know, like for family functions. But, you know, life happens, there's changes after my my my parents divorced. There was an absence there because my mom moved us to this side of the city. It's more affordable for her. So the exposure level incredibly diminished by the time, you know, we were seven, right? So it's now exploring, like like Rob said, there's so many people willing to pour into you because of that I never had a problem killing an animal because you know, when I lived in South Texas, I I worked on a kill floor killing cows for a living just so I can make ends meet for my wife and kids. You know what I'm saying? And it didn't it didn't bother me any. I didn't see it as like uh as like, oh, you know, like I I understand the difference between like going to commercial processing and going to somewhere like a Publix or an AG or Kroger's, or oh, you know, we grew up in South Florida, it's very possible you're gonna have Cuban family, Jamaican families, Haitian families. Bro, there's chickens running up and down my street. You know what I'm saying? Like they'll literally just I'll see them knock the chicken on the back of the head, process it, and and it's like, yo, that's beautiful to me. And yeah, as I've gotten older, like when when Rob and I, we were in North Carolina, well, a few months ago, Breeze. Yeah, December, December, early December, late November. Yeah, what you're talking about looking up in the sky and seeing the stars, and you don't see man, it was pitch black out there. We looked up, we were like, oh man, we were in Virginia. I think that was one of like the first pictures that uh oh, yeah, there he went. I think he's back. There he is, he's back, he's back. When we went to Virginia, that was my first time ever actually being at the top of a mountain. I was completely mind-blown, and it was the funniest thing because you know Andrew is like the loud brother. We're in the mountains, we're flying the drone. Oh, yeah, it's like everything's quiet. We're like, yeah, it's over here, it's over here. I settled there. People are looking at it for like yeah, that's our that's our bear brother in the mountain. I think too, just to go back on like uh how people have visceral responses uh to people to who who hunt, I think some of that is doing part two, the sort of celebratory social media part of it. So if you see like a dead lion or dead giraffe, and you know they're taking a picture with their rifle, that personally to me, I don't like those photos either. Um, and I uh of course, there's sort of there's conservation um uh discussions and reasonings behind that uh that I am not privy to and I don't want to speak on, but the image of that I can see bothers people. And then people may take that big game image and put that on every single aspect of hunting, and that's where the communication online gets rattled. Uh so not all hunting is this sort of like big game hunting where you're out in a you know, um out there hunting lions and giraffes, and then posting photos about that, you know, that will always spark moral and ethical conversations about whether that's ethical or not. Um, but in terms of like harvesting meat the last of winter, these are like survival hunting. And that was one of the things I learned in 2025 because I felt the same way for uh a long time, and then I realized, like, wait, do y'all bring that meat over? They're like, No, we we give it to the village, and we're like uh because at its core, right, it's like we're being provided with meat, right? So there's like and it's cool, man. And I and I agree with you there. Um, like I can a hundred percent see there, and I think that's one of the problems with social media. I can see why social media glamorizes a certain picture, yeah. We're humans, we're gonna make our own belief about this image stuck in time, right? So, yeah, I I agree with you there um a hundred percent. And yeah, it's it's it's like in direct contrast to thanking your food and praying for your food, right? You know, you have the native, the indigenous folks, every time they hunted, or whatever uh specific tribe would you know give thanks um for what they just hunted for because it's going to do good, do good, and um, and it's reciprocal, it's gonna go back into the dirt, and you know, life is a cycle. Have you ever seen that show Meat Eater? I haven't, no. That's why I like that dude. I think one of the first uh seasons he talks about you know how hunting for him is an intimate experience because he acknowledges that this animal's given his life for my family to eat, and then he he kind of talks about the history of that of like wow you know, tribes of people in different parts of the world, rural communities where like hunting big game is not as easy as going to the the store. And he said it, I'd have to find it because it that's what made me admire his entire like platform. You know, this I found this out like four or five years ago, that platform. And then obviously, the more work we do in the outdoors and conversations we have and exposure we have, the more I'm like, oh, okay. I I start creating my own foundational beliefs, and it's interesting. Like I I enjoy the human experience. I love seeing Rob reconnect with some of his past. Like he's like, man, because I can't tell you how many times we've been on the road, and he's like, Man, I wish my my old man was here to like he'd be proud of me. Yeah, tell me about that, Rob. Like, like what was that experience like? Well, it there were so many elements to that. Um, it because I think, and I'm like, yo, my dad was my age. Like the age I am right now, you know, to think about that. I was like, man, and here I am, you know, with a such a different understanding and perspective on all this. And um, you know, because that that was some of our core memories, and I didn't understand. It was cool. I was outside with a gun, I was a kid, I was shooting stuff and you know, blowing up cow poop with a shotgun and watermelon, you know, it was awesome. You know, like I was doing kids stuff, my dad let me have fun with it, but also there was sitting in the deer stand for hours waiting for a deer to walk up. Oh, like just like yeah, yeah, yeah, he just keeps going. Let me stop clutching my pearls. You were so gun, you assume cow poop would suck, yeah. Yeah, so it was fun. There was either like you could tell, there was either like fresh stuff or the stuff that had been dried in the heat, and it was like a bean pie, you know what I'm saying? So kid, I yeah, I was in the in the mud, so I like pick them up and fling them in the lake in the pond, you know, so they'd be floating out there. So some of them I'd clap in the lake. I was entertaining, I was like, you know, all right, boy, just don't shoot yourself, right? The funniest thing, really quick. Let me interject. The funniest thing is we were in Texas on the hog hunt, and he leans over because you're supposed to be really quiet. He goes, he goes, see that right there, and I don't think he's gonna tell me something profound. He goes, Well, we call that a cow pie. Like the battle of bird. He was smiley, he's like, That's my boy, but call that a cow pie. Yeah, it's it's cool, it's just man, it's been an amazing experience, and I understand. I can see, you know, you're a kid, man. I'm a kid doing kid stuff. I didn't understand the bond that we were creating, and also that my I see, you know, like Cush said, we have this experience, no matter how old I get, you know, I'm always gonna think about the experience Cush and I had in Texas hunting. I saw him kill his first animal. That was an emotional time for him. He was like, So, you know, it a lot went into it. So I think of you know, my dad and his his friends, and I'm like, man, those were his brothers out there creating those memories. And um, it's yeah, it ah man, uh we're part of the animal kingdom, it's a cycle of like geez and nature. Uh, you know, I I I I follow this Instagram feak, I think it's called Nature is Metal. Nature is I can't remember, but they show like full on the gory nature of humanity. Oh, I'm sorry, of the animal kingdom. Uh, and all of the things we just wouldn't feel comfortable seeing. Uh, and I like watching that because it's a reminder of the reality of things. You know, we have this like version of well, no, I shouldn't say that because things I mean I remember one of my first memories of like as a kid, like I'm emotionally traumatized was like Bambi, or you know, like I saw I should no seriously that's trauma. You know, Bambi story. Remember the remember the thing I was like, no, what was it? Why did they do the like that that was tough? Bambi dying serious and all jokes aside, like I remember that. Like, I was like, What is why do I feel like this? I'm a kid, I don't know how to process this yet. Let me go play all outside, but um, yo, that's a great point, you know. I I I think we all forget that because it's like I'm sorry, Bambi's mother, right? Of I'm sorry, what it was. We have a little lag. It was Bambi's mother who died. Yeah, it was Bambi's mother. Oh man, bringing me back. Oh no, Bambi. Um, it's true though, even like as we talk about it, it's like yo, I have a dystopian view of things, like because I can't just I could get on Amazon and something's delivered to my front door in three hours, you know. It's like I'm not out hunting for the I'm hunting on the internet for things, like, gotcha. Throw the cart, and it's just man, it's so true. Just this conversation we're having, uh, even the realization for myself, which is cool. Absolutely. Rob, you haven't played a beat. I haven't, man. I want to talk to Wilken about uh so many things because I know so let's just play it and let's just say this is this is the beat for this episode. I forgot to turn my my backlight on. Is this is okay? Is it okay? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, very informal. We are here, Wilkin. Because I know you're probably gonna do clips and stuff, but you know, the backlight gives like the oh the aesthetic. Oh yeah, not just aesthetic, but also just for you know, foreground contrast, contrast, my bad, y'all. Play your beat, Breeze. Let's just we'll just play it and then we'll just uh you know um fun fact here, fun fact here, Breezy. Fun fact here, Breezy. Me, Wilkie, my brother, and David Castro used to be in a rap group in high school. Sitting bars, and then that quickly faded. That's a great because seriously, well, y'all can talk about that, but I want to know like what was your first like I know for me there's songs that are that are seared into my mind that I can remember as a kid. Like, do you have that moment, like that musical moment, Wilkin, as a kid? Like, yo, what is this? I want to I want to find more of this and like picked up the passion for it, so to speak. Yeah, that's a very um deep question that I haven't put much thought to. Um my answer right now will probably be a historical type answer. So growing up, Haitians went through a lot of anti-immigrant sentiment. So that had led to a lot of bullying. And it's weird to even use that term bullying because that's just now in hindsight, that's exactly what it was. Um, until Haitians turned things back over. Like, hey, you mess with one Haitian, now you messing, you know. But that took a while to adjust to what was going on. Why were people who looked just like me against me, and vice versa? Um, and you know, so it wasn't until the Fuji's came out that gave us cultural capital in the United States. So I would say, you know, the Fuji's was also very similar to Outcast, where it wasn't like boom bap rap hip hop. It was musical and there was a lot of social commentary baked into it. Uh and it was experimental in a sense. You heard Fuji's and you're like, whoa, it feels uh different. Uh and so and not only did it feel different, it had a direct impact on my life in terms of perspective and and people viewing us. I'm sorry, perception, the perception of Haitians changed when Fuji's came out. And so I would say growing up that had that had a huge uh um impact on how I viewed the power of music. Uh, I was also a very big Pac fan. Uh, I loved the sort of dichotomy that he presented, even though there were times I disagreed with Pac. Um I thought Dear Mama was absolutely phenomenal for me. Uh to hear a man show that much vulnerability uh and also reverence for the woman in his life. Yeah. Uh that had a huge impact for me. Um, also just in terms of sports, ambitions as a my ambitions as a rider used to get me right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, any any player in front of me can get it when that song came along. You dig. Uh, and so, and I just love different types of music. My first white friend, I think any any black guy from a particular area has a first white friend, right? I'm like, yo, I was someone's first white friend. My first white friend was a guy named Scott. Uh, and this is like third grade, Melaleuca Elementary School. And Scott introduced me to Metallica. No way, yo. When I was like, what is this? Yo, I think the gifts when the kid's putting on the headset at the playground and he's like trans for like, Well, what is this? That was me. That was me. This time it was with a walkman. Yeah, we old young, right? Man, come on. Hey, Will, you listen to this. I'm running music. You're like, whoa, these guys are aggressive, man. Yeah. And he matched the aesthetic as well, the shirts, you know. And here I am come from Dyson Circle and all black neighborhood. And now me and Scott are walking to his house listening to Metallica. And then I go back to my neighborhood and we bumping mystical from no limit. Bro, so my range of music was all over the place. I go home, and my mom's also, even though she's Haitian, she's playing reggae, she's also playing kompa music, you know. Uh, so I am getting exposed to a variety of music, and it's informing my worldview in multiple ways. So it was never one-dimensional. Um, and so I give thanks to music. Uh, I give thanks to spoken word poetry, I give thanks to the arts because that's what exposed me to different perceptions of life, you know. The timing was perfect. That was amazing. Um, geez, there's so many, like, wow, that was a very elegant and thoughtful answer. I expect nothing less from our brother Wilken. Um, it just there's so many elements of that because I think, wow, I saw some of that Haitian, right? Like you said, yo, we look alike. What's going on? I saw that with the New Yorkers too. Like, you know, it's like, yo, I'm from Brooklyn, B. And it's like, yo, well, I'm from Pahoke. Yo, we're like the same, but just such different cultures. No, seriously. Like, I had, you know, I know there it wasn't uh you say bully, and man, it just opens my mind to think about some of the things I saw in high school, you know, and that man, you're right, like you had to you had to earn your stripes, like y'all fought for it. Like it wasn't just handed to you, like y'all had to really take your lumps and go through things and to see that and not fully understand it in high school, because we all did, you know. I took my lumps in middle school and I learned, you know, I was mixed with kids that were from the rough areas of Boynton Beach, you know, Seacrest and stuff. And I'm like, yo, what is this? And um, I just think about it from your perspective as well. So to bring that like to a head with what you were saying and how the imp, you know, because I never thought I love the Fuji's, you know, but I'm a white dude from the suburbs, so I love them because a lot of the things you said, why you love them, but to think, yo, this is why why Clef's a Haitian brother like myself, you know, and need like this is yo, this is power in this music. Yeah, so I just want to say, man, that was like such an amazing answer. And um, just to give you like your flowers of of for anyone listening, because I know a lot of people are listening. Um, you know, there there is power in in music and and representation and culture, and I think that's a beautiful thing to hear your version of it, you know. Absolutely, thank you. Like, and yeah, like I'm sure there's a bunch of other people that you know, like like brothers and sisters like yourself that that it had that same impact, and man, that's that's one thing about being a creative that I love. So I just want to say that was an amazing answer. Thank you, man. Yeah, and it's so unifying too. Music, yeah. Like, I don't care what area look at what we talk about Bob Marley all the time. We're like, who doesn't like Bob Marley? That's how Bob Marley and someone gets mad. Turn this off. Who is that guy? He's an alien. That's how I know something's wrong with my sister. She doesn't like Bob. I'm like, what you don't like Bob, bro? I mean, they each their own, but that's the barometer of all barometers. Like I feel like you can really get a sense of this Bob is cool. Okay, cool. We're cool, yeah. And I think sometimes people are against the public celebration of an artist versus the craftsmanship. Uh, if you love music, you're gonna listen to the craft of that artist and respect what it took in that particular studio. Some people have never been in a music studio and don't understand how uh a verse is created in that moment. Uh, you know, a rapper or singer might hear something else from someone else to be like, no, say it this way. And then they don't realize that say it this way can make the hit song. Um, you know, some people don't like Eminem. For me, I love the technical rapping skills of Eminem, especially during Marshall Mathers. You know, when I went to England for the first time, um, what was I bumping? I was bumping Eminem along with other artists at the time because I was listening to the way in which he put bars together, unreal symbols, and you know, you just you love a wordsmith whether it's it's in hip hop or or singer. And so yeah, I think people need to separate um this idea that you can hate the fact that everyone loves this artist and you you don't like that aspect of it, remove that and just at least to some extent give credit to the craftsmanship, you know. So question for okay, where where are you going with this? I'm gonna say, is he the Okay, all right, all right, I got the question. Is he the fork in the road for when peak lyricism is on radio because of how he's able to manipulate words? Meaning like bend the actual word to make it make sense with words that aren't traditional, rhyming words. Rhyming words. Uh what do you mean by fork in the road though? Like what so after him, you know, up to him it was like a lot of underground lyricism. There was obviously, you know, you know, the Jay-Z and Rockefellers of the time, but and that's just you're talking lyricism at a very high level, but everyone in the industry knows something about Eminem in his wordplay and how he bends words, it's just mind-boggling. And I think we saw more of that after him, case in point. Like, um, what's the song um uh good morning? Uh Kanye West. Good morning, and yeah, get him in his valedictorian, like yeah, yeah, just start adding. I think I think some underground artists were already doing that. Oh, yeah, of course. I think Eminem may have made it more popular, right? Um, and has great musical skills. So it's well, it's one reason why a lot of underground artists aren't popular because they may be too lyrical, yeah, and aren't out. I I don't want to say simplifying, but aren't adding enough musicality into their music. And that's the difference between an Eminem and like an underground artist. That's the difference between a Nas Ilmatic. Yep. Ilmatic has a lot of jazz influences. And Nas is also one of my favorite artists because of the storytelling part of it, right? Um Eminem can sometimes go too lyrical on the song, and it it he stretches a verse too long, and um, and sometimes you can lose sight of what he's trying to say. You can love the fact that he's bending the words, but then it just comes, then the song just turns into a song where Eminem is bending words and there's nothing coming out of it, no substance. Yeah, exactly. And so that's one major critique that you could have about Eminem. But like any album, any movie, you're always gonna you're always gonna find things you can critique um while also giving praise simultaneously to for a long time. Eminem, or I'm sorry, Nas was accused of not picking beats, uh proper beats that can match the fervor of his lyricism. Well, uh Kendrick Lamar is like in between both, is great at picking solid production to match his experimental approach to making music. He's like in between both, hard lyricist, but also is is is experimental music selection, yeah. Um, and so that's what kind of like makes him great. Um section 80 was jazz jazz influenced, jazzy, yeah, yeah. That's my favorite genre of music is jazz. Yeah, well, I think I like tribe when you start, you know, native tongues, tribe stuff, like yeah, heavy jazz, which really, man, that that's a whole because that as a kid, you know, I got it's funny. You have the Metallica experience, and I have the Jam Pony Express experience in elementary school. You ever heard of Jampon? I was like, Jam, yeah, the male, the male people, he put his Walkman and they're like, Right, you know, it's Jam Wheel, and I'm like, you know, what is this? Yeah, they're riding. I wanna, I wanna say they were riding over an LL Cool J song. I was like, Yo, bro, what is this? Where do I find it? He's like, You just gotta my baby's on special dance. You I told him we might get a guest appearance. Go ahead, special dance right now. And I was just like, I got home, I'm like, Mom, I want to listen to rap, and yo, bless my mom's heart. She brought me to the mall, and I to dude probably laughed when I left. I was like, Yo, man, I need some rap albums. Run DMC, yeah, Beastie Boys, and LL Cool J. Man, Bigger and Deafer. Yo, bro, when I tell you like that, transformed my it really did. I mean, that's kind of under like that's when I you know started exploring DJing and production and opening my eyes to like yo, how is this music made? And the whole point of me say is like other genres, like because remember, we used to read the credits, you pull out the credits, oh yeah, yes, no way, read the lyrics and all. They didn't create all this music from scratch. Now, some of it they did, you know, props to them, but like that's where I found samples and Earth Wind and Fire and Gap Band, and I'm like, Oh, what is all this stuff? So it's just amazing how one door can lead to the next. Absolutely, and and shape how you view the world too. I think for me, since I come from the spoken word poetry, and uh I was always wrestled with commercialized rap and some of the messages that they were spewing out. But when I grew up, I knew that it wasn't just the artists, it was the distribution, it's the radio program managers that were not allowing a multitude of artists to express their thoughts, uh, whether it's anti-government sentiments, whether it's rapping about nature, all of like the different topics that you could rap about was not readily accessible on a radio. It was it was typically violence, misogyny, uh, and maybe some anti-government sentiments, maybe some social commentary baked in there, right? A little bit of medicine, but mostly junk food. A little bit of steak, but mostly junk food, right? Um, and then you have to like search underground for the type of music that you want. And I always felt that was uh irresponsible of a lot of radio programmers. Because, but then you realize all this payola, the music business is a corrupt industry, so the artist that you want to push out, um there's a lot of politics behind the distribution of the music. Um, so I we're we're having a love artistry, but like the music industry business conversation is a whole different beast. I was gonna say we could go on like a whole nother hour of because I I forget my brother's name from Poor Righteous Teachers, but he talks about that. He's like, yo, it was very intentional. He's like, you go back to when public enemy was around, you know, fight the power. There was very like politically charged records on the race, you know, it was and then there was this shift, and he's like, yo, that wasn't unintentional. And and like, because it was a lot of power to that. Like, you know, imagine if radio programmers at that time were putting tribe call quests and all of these sort of, you know, big brother or not, I'm sorry, little brother, all of these, you know, the roots, you name it. I mean, if if if they were just like much more in the forefront, then perhaps Pac would not have switched to death row and and sort of like created that you know dichotomy between the black power, black panther pot versus the you know, thug life. Right. Yeah, because he came up with what? Digital underground. Like he was a What you gotta so really big brother did suppress little brother. I gotta so I I know I get it. Everyone talks lists, you know, who's your top five, who's your top ten? Oh do you do you have lists? Do you have a Mount Rushmore? It doesn't have to be all the same genre. Like, yeah, if it is cool, like do you have it doesn't have to be well? Let's take on hip hop because if it doesn't have to be the same drop the album all over the place. That's yeah, yeah. I mean, if we were talking hip hop, who's like who do you have? Right? Who's gonna be all over the place? Well, I remember a guy was talking about Cush remembers this because I came in like so perplexed. Uh, he was talking about the greatest albums of all time, and it was an older, you know. If if I'm 48, you know, this was probably 10 years ago. I'm 38, I'm 52, you know, something like that. I think the question itself is a difficult question because uh it's um it's not all-encompassing. So, in other words, right, some of these questions have to be put into categories. Sure. If the question is who is your top five, your top Rush Moore artists in terms of lyricism, then you're gonna give your list musicality, then you're gonna, but but obviously, people want the overall, right? Right. Um I said aquemini, and this white dude looked at me like I was speaking a different language, and he's like, What is the what is that? He doesn't know outcast. I said outcast equemini because he was talking like you know, some older RB rock albums, the Beatles, stuff like that. And I said, Well, if we're talking all-time albums, I gotta say Equemine, and he's like, Aquemini, he kind of gave me one of those, like, and I was like, Wow, this dude has no idea because he's totally because it's a rap, you know, or hip-hop. It's like, yo, the musicality in that album, uh exposure, another thing crazy. You talk about the bell curve going on a ride on a music, and it's like, man, this dude just totally because it's a genre that he doesn't, and I understand it to a sense, but I'm like, wow, out to to certain people, that's not you know, to us, it's like this masterpiece of an album, and this guy was just like that. Don't even it's not even in the same category as the stuff. Yeah, yeah, and noise, organized noise. Yeah, uh again, if you're not exposed to a multitude of genres, uh, even within hip hop, um, you're just going to be biased. And also, typically, people ask this question on the spot. And when you ask the question like that, you're gonna forget albums that is probably your favorite, but you haven't sat down and wrote it down and had your list and broke it down, you know. So I'm gonna go off the whim off the top of my head. Once this interview's over, I'm gonna be mad because I know I'm gonna be like, How did I forget this album? I was listening to it before the show. You know, okay, I abuse my plants, my plant wife. All right, so um um, so to not destroy myself, my list is not gonna be in order. Can can I get that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fine. Okay, uh, individual artists or group, or just whatever, yeah. Yeah, whatever. That's fine. Uh I'll do individual artists. Okay. Top five from hip hop. Okay. Okay. Uh we're gonna go with Nas. We're gonna go with Lauren Hill. Okay, we're gonna go with Andre 3000, three stacks. We're gonna go with Pop just because of what he meant to me as a young age, and you know, um just feeding some of that social commentary at a time where Gangster Rap was gangster rap. He still had enough songs at that time. Yeah, oh yeah. Uh that fifth one is gonna be really, really tough. Um my goodness. We're gonna go with Oh my god. The the main rapper from the roots. Why am I drawing a blank? Oh black thought. I was about to say black guy, so we just spoke a word poet. Black thought. Black thought is, you know, lupe, lupe is uh lupe fiasco is definitely it's between lupe and black thought for me. Okay. Um uh, so that's gonna be tough. You know what? I'm gonna switch out black thought for lupe fiasco. Really? Yeah. Um, I don't like that. It's uh, and I think it's because of more individual bodies of work from Lupe. Because my list right now that I just gave you is individual artist, yeah, which means individual albums that were created by that individual artist. Black Thought unfortunately doesn't have a discography that is just black thought, it's just with the roots. So for this category of individual artists who produce individual bodies of work, Lupe Fiasco has to go above black thought for me. I'm gonna get a lot of flack for this, but I'm so glad you didn't say MF Doom. Oh I just can't get into him. I don't know why. Yeah, Sonically. I like MF as a creative artist and as an artist who pushed the boundaries of what it means to be to be a hip-hop artist. Yeah, you know, um, and I feel like whenever you hear someone say MF Doom, they're also talking about him encompassing the sort of nerdy part of hip-hop, having the mask, and and you're pushing against the grain of like you know, Rockin' Tim's and baggage jeans and the the stereotypical standard of what a hip hop artist should look like. Yeah, you know, yeah. Man, that's so if you went, if that's a great if if we if we jump to groups, I I I can only presume there'd be like some Wu-Tang Mob D. Wait, wait, so are we jumping a group now or are you are you gonna let's jump to groups? We'll do this, yeah. Let's go. Are y'all gonna mention y'all individual artists first and then we jump to groups? Let's back into the spot. Let's park here. Wait, wait, hold up, don't park yet. So, Rob, you gotta mention your top five individual hip hop artists. Oh, geez. And then and then uh Okay, okay, okay, yeah. And then jump out of the car. Okay. Um, my top five, three stacks, Andre 3000, Ice Cube. I was a huge ice cube fan. You talk about influence. I had every album he dropped. Um he was like, to me, like one of the greatest storytellers, rappers. You know, he could paint, make a movie uh out of a song. Um DMX, bro. I love DMX. That's one of my yeah, he's uh man, I I think I missed a lot of DM, not missed it, but he it's a it's amazing how you write this music we listened to when we were so young, how it hit it changes, its meaning changes it the older we get, and we listen to it and we hear some different perspectives and um DMX is up there for me. I go back and forth, man. I had Jay-Z for a while. I love Nas. I think it's amazing what Nas is doing. Like he's get he's been like him and Hit Boy have just like are making this magic. Um, it's tough for me to pick between those two. So I'd probably throw Prodigy in there from Mob Deep. I think when he when he was in his prime, like it was tough to outrap Prodigy from Mob Deep. He's got arguably probably the greatest verse ever on Shook Ones from start to finish. Bar for bar, it's it's like uh it's like uh one of the mob movies we talk about, scene after scene after when they play that live, the crowd is just oh bro, was that for vibe there? And you know what? Man, only because the dual like yo, I love Kanye. When Kanye was in his bag as an MC and a producer, which Kanye? Man, I know there's so many different uh early Kanye dropout to like twisted, dark, twisted fantasy. Okay, okay, that okay, that Kanye. Okay, not to say he didn't drop any, but that like that core run of album like graduating unbelievable, and my list is gonna vary because uh well I'll start off Scarface. I love Scarface, I love how fixed he gets and internal, um explorative with himself and his feelings. Uh I've always loved Master P. He'll always be because I love the idea of ownership, and I love how he was very community with the label. So I'm not even just talking like so. You're not talking about like the craftsmanship of lyrics at this point. Yeah, that's individual artists, just individual artists, like um I'm gonna have to go uh Jay-Z. I love Jay-Z just because uh the lyricism there and again ownership. Um, I'm gonna have to go Nas for same thing. Like he he can be very insightful, and to me, he's like a a modern audio version of Picasso, and he can paint the pictures that are reality of being in the inner city. That was a bar. Right? So when I hear him, like I can visualize it because there's similarities there that I I I hear. And then there's uh let's see, that's for DMX. DMX, because he can he's like to me, he always reminded me. This is even like even before like before any of like my face stuff, I remember yo, this guy is openly talking about his struggle with a higher power and praying, and I've always loved that because there's always no matter who you are and where you're at in the world, there's always some level of authority over you, yeah. For a person to take a position of like, yo, I need help, but at the same time, why is this happening to me? Like, why are you a like that that sort of like desperation of wanting to be loved and still rebel against that very thing that created you to be loved, right? So what a great breakdown, man. I so that would be my top five. And have you have you guys seen that Jay-Z interview when he was talking about going on tour and DMX? He had to go after DMX, and DMX comes out, you hear the roar, right? Man, growling at me, and then uh you know, he goes into a set. Yeah, he's crying, crushed rain, he's got his shirt on, and then JZ's like, guys love him, and J Z goes, I gotta go on after this count. It's a hard knock lies. Can I can I just throw in three people that I rotate in and out, yeah, real quick, and then we'll stop. Pimpsy, RIP Pim Crick Daddy from the crib, and JT Money. JT Money, yo, in his prime poison clan JT Money, uh storytelling, he had it all, bro. He was the full package, and and as a South Florida dude, I grew up idolizing that dude. He was amazing. Storytelling ability, yeah. Yeah, it was like it was second and none. So I love story. If you haven't heard of JT Money or Poison Clan, if you're outside, check them out. Definitely, you know what's fascinating? It's kind of like watching a film to always equate listening to music with like watching a film. Um, you could watch Godfather and not feel like you want to kill your brother in real life, you just know the violence is there, right? It's it's you're you have a window into what you're watching, and you could suspend disbelief and all that. And so you could listen to a rapper who you completely disagree with the value system that they're adhering to, but the storytelling is compelling, and so it's kind of like women who love crime podcasts. You know, I um you know, I'm not quite sure what the data says, but we do know that most women love crime podcasts. Uh, and I I do want to know why that is, but the storytelling, I assume, is a big part of it as well. And typically, if the storytelling is compelling across all artists, um, you're just gonna fall in love with the craftsmanship of it, you know? Yep, yep. So hold on, hold on. I gotta, I gotta, I gotta say this because we're uh we're nearing an hour. Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, it's been it's been an amazing episode, and I kind of want to bring it all together. So outdoors music, is there anything you're listening to while you're out on your hikes or you're or you're out in the outdoors? Uh so I typically listen to all types of music. There's there's there's a two-prong answer to that. As of late, I have tried to experiment not listening to anything, whether it's a podcast or music, when I'm working out, or in moments where I am uh getting up to use a bathroom, right? You take your phone, you're scrolling. I am trying to like allow my mind to just wander. And I've been trying that experiment in the last two weeks or so. So I'll go to my community gym in my neighborhood, and I won't play music. I used to play Ace Hood. Ace Hood was like my music or dead pres that get me hype. Um lately, I'm just like silence. Viewing your thoughts. In my thoughts. And uh, I've noticed more ideas pop up. I I've noticed more mental rest. Um because if every aspect of your day is filled with uh content and you are listening to content, whether it's music or podcast, and almost every moment, and then you have to produce content as part of your job, you never have real mental rest because after the after your work day, then you want to watch a movie to debrief. And yeah, and so lately I've been trying that and that hasn't worked. Uh, but in terms of new mu new music, chronics, uh reggae artists. Shout out chronics. Wow, bro. Hold on, hold on. Here we go. I've been listening to Chronics lately, and I love music that is that gives me that higher vibration. Yeah, I love Anderson Pack. Uh I think again, another artist that has great musicality and storytelling capabilities. Uh and so I know I'm missing a lot of people. Jill Scott has a new album coming out, so I'm I'm still in love with Neil Sowell. Uh different types of music. Miles Davis, whenever I'm in the you know, uh jazz mood, a little bit of Charles Mingus. I mean, uh so I'm all over the place, man. That's awesome. Yeah, Rob and I usually when we're out, like like actually outdoors, we typically don't listen to anything because we like like you said, bro, we work with media in media, and it's like, no, let's enjoy the stillness of the night, let's enjoy the God's creation, right? Like we we love just being in nature, just being present, which is hearing birds chirp. That's it. Wow, I think that signifies how much we have these things at our disposal too, you know. When you're like, I realize how much I'm looking for my phone sometimes when we're out, and it's the stillness, or I want to see, like, you know, do I have a text message? So it's it's it's definitely like uh like I said, uh a magnifying glass, if you will, to like how much we're I'm uh like you said, we're creatives too. So even at the studio, we'd work on music all day, and then sometimes, yeah, man, we got to work on my album after this. Like, uh, let's do it tomorrow. So it's good, man. That balance is is key. You need that balance, yeah, for your soul, for your spirit. Uh-huh. And now uh let's wrap it up with this. Any advice for young men, young people from similar areas that we grew up in that are venturing or have access to some something like the outdoors, whether it's through a mentor or through family, what advice would you give them? Uh, the advice I would give them is a holistic one. Typically, when I talk about any advice, I speak on having a structure in your life, particularly guiding principles. Uh, and I have like my four P's that I live by. It's purpose, planning, persistence, and patience, in that order. In that order. Yep. In that order. In that order. You know, you got to have purpose. You have to plan out your day, you have to be persistent in whatever you do, having that grit. And then you have to have patience. In other words, give yourself grace, uh, especially when you want results to come. Uh, but sometimes results may take a while. Uh, and but you have to have some bullet points uh to visualize and check off. And that's the way that's the sort of process that has worked for me. Um and my four P's may not apply to that young person. However, structure will always apply. That's a universal thing. You need a budget whenever you're running a business, you need a budget for your family. Uh coaches have a whiteboard whenever they're drawing up plays for their players, you know. Uh teachers have a whiteboard whenever they're drawing up lessons for their students. You should apply those same principles to your life. Budget, have that whiteboard ready, uh, and experiment. It doesn't mean you don't make room for spontaneity, but it does mean that if you have structure, you at least can visualize your vision. Like I want to see where I'm going uh and where I need to improve and allow failure to be data, uh, and not allow failure to be an eye uh part of my identity. It's like, oh, here's where I failed, here's where I can improve now. Um that's what the message I would give to young folks listening to this podcast. Um, and you you can take that principle to the outdoors. Uh if you try to learn how to hurt it. Yeah. There it is. There's a lesson in every L. I heard that the other day. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, that's that's that's great advice. Um and too early. Dang oh, yeah, yeah. Ready? Hats off. Hats off. There you go. Great job. Uh no, but uh folks, I wanna I wanna wrap this up and say I hope you guys enjoyed this conversation. Uh it's it's been a very meaningful, very powerful and profound conversation, just simply for me personally, because this is a lifelong brother of mine. And um, you know, it the I love the uh the the culmination of where our lives have have come and the crossroads that we're at with like as adults outdoors and still being um conscious and very centered with what we're absorbing and taking in as far as content and anything anything else that may sway our belief system. And for a lot of people exploring the outdoors, some of us are new coming into it from a sense of like we just hadn't done it in 20 years, and for others, it's a lifestyle thing. And I hope that this episode was insightful for y'all, and uh, we appreciate y'all tuning in, staying tapped in. And uh, if you disagree with our list, well drop us a comment and let us know what y'all have one love.