What Pressure Reveals: Leadership Lessons from an Avalanche Rescuer - with Caroline Elliott

Caroline Elliott spent over twenty years in ski rescue and mountain rescue units, literally working on the front lines of avalanche response with her dog, Fjord. 

Imagine being in a situation where the stakes are life or death and every second counts. That is where she learned what it truly means to lead and communicate when the pressure is on.

We did a deep dive into how those high stakes moments in the mountains actually reveal who we are. 

Caroline shares how she is now taking all that intense lived experience and using it to help business teams find their footing when things get unstable. We talked about the importance of psychological safety, the power of a "gut brain," and why kindness and respect are non-negotiable, even when you are facing a literal or metaphorical storm.

One of my favorite parts of our chat was hearing about her bond with her dogs. She has such a beautiful way of looking at partnership and trust that we can all learn from. 

Whether you are leading a team at work or just trying to navigate a stressful season in your own life, Caroline has so much wisdom to share about stepping back when you see a red flag and trusting your own internal intelligence.

You can find more about Caroline and follow our journey here:

Website: www.carolineelliott.me

Social Media:  https://www.instagram.com/carolineelliott.me/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/caroline-elliott-aabb8117/

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Transcript

0:00

Hello, and welcome to today's episode of Thrive After 45. I'm Denise Drinkwater, heart whisperer, midlife mirror and mentor. And every week I am absolutely honored to share energy and space with inspiring guests. Whose stories reflect so many possibilities of thriving beyond 45? Together we'll uncover the whispers of the heart, the power of midlife transformation, and the wisdom that fuels expansion. What do you discover about yourself when there is no room for panic performance or pretending only presence? Truth and decisive action. It is such an honor and a privilege to welcome Carolyn Elliott to our show today. Caroline has spent over 20 years in ski rescue with more than a decade inside specialist mountain rescue units working directly in avalanche response as a search. Rescue dog handler where pressure is real. Communication must be very clean, and leadership is revealed in seconds. This is lived experience. Not theory. And today she is an international keynote speaker and author carrying those same principles from the mountains into the worlds of snow, safety, leadership, and high pressure performance. She has impacted thousands of lives from children. Discovering mountain Safety through her book, fjords Mountain Mission, inspired by her avalanche dog Fjord and now translated into four languages to adults and leadership teams learning how to function clearly when conditions are unstable and the stakes are really high. Most recently, her work has expanded into guiding business teams, translating the realities of. Avalanche rescue into practical frameworks for decision making, communication, and trust under pressure. She is also in the developmental phase of something very rare, avalanche simulation camps where teams are deliberately placed under pressure not to be tested. But to be revealed, because pressure really doesn't create who we are. It actually ends up showing us exactly who we've been all along. Welcome to our show today, Caroline. I can't wait to have this conversation with you. Thank you so much, Denise. It's, it's, I've been really looking forward to this. It's been great. Thank you. We have to start with your picture. We have to start with your picture in the background is that Fjord? Yeah, that's, um, Fjord, bless him when he was, um, on the way to an avalanche training. So that's him going full on, uh, to the, is it left of me? Yeah. Depends what you looking at the screen. Yeah. So that's, that's fjord in full flight mode, so to speed. Um, so yeah, no, no. Uh, great dog. Great dog. Um, and yeah, the big snow mountain behind me is a, a peak in the Pyrenees, actually a volcanic peak. So yeah, no very snow mountains. Um. Yeah, beautiful place. Love it. But, um, potentially very dangerous, but yeah. I totally, mm-hmm. Tell us, how did you get to where you are today? Were you always a skier as a kid? Like, tell us a little bit of your story so we can really understand Caroline. Mm-hmm. Where she is today. Yeah. And the incredible capacity you bring to teams. Yeah. So I, um, I started skiing at the age of 10. Um, I was a gymnast before, so I started gymnastics very, very young. And, um, it was just a natural, um, transition from gymnastics onto skis. Um, balance was there and I was lucky to have a, a, um, a very kind of genuine, um, family. And dad was like. Take Karen off skiing to my mom and my dad did not like snow at all. Um, so she took me off to Marybel. Okay. We were quite well known resorts in the Alps and um, I learned to ski and didn't look back. Um, I absolutely adored it. Um, yeah, the snow, the cold, um, and I think also my capacity, uh, physically to actually take to it like a abductor water. Yeah. Um, and yeah, mountains on my happy place, so. Mm-hmm. And then that progressed onto, um, do not laugh, ski ballet. So I did ski ballet. Oh wow. My Walkman and my, my hair at the end. Oh yeah. I love it. I can see it. I know. And there was a very, very, very, I was not at a very high level. There was something called Julia Snell. Um, she actually came to living in Canada, um, and I believe she married a Canadian. And, uh, she was like up there. Um, I was kind of doing it nationally, but um, I loved it. I either kind of, um, took a kind of like, um, what do you call it? Um, the wells into a, splits into a kind of like arms in the air, and it was just so eighties. I loved it. So yeah, it was good. Yeah. And then after that, ski instructing and then from ski instructor decided that I love children and I love instructing children, but I wanted to, I've always wanted to help people. So that's kind of the ongoing thing for me. It's helping people. Sure. Sure. Is so my weird thing dropping out on me. Oh, that's okay. You know what? Things happen and we just carry on. We, I'm just used to kind of just dealing with the situation. It occur, it's always, Caroline is plan B as in like is not good to plan as we trained it. Let's go with plan B oh, plan C, plan D, or whatever, so, right? Mm-hmm. Flex flexibility. With probably with what you do, you're, you're talking life-threatening situations. Yeah. So when we introed and talked about seconds count, um, I can only imagine that added stress that that puts on the team as a whole. How does that, how does that play out? Um, because, um, we do know, I mean, statistically there is, is studies done where we say 15 minutes, you've got a very good chance of survival in an avalanche. So if you're not actually where that place is, um, where the avalanche has occurred, you know, the time to get in, there's gonna start ticking from whether it's a, um, a transporting with a, a chairlift or with. The road transport or a helicopter. So you are under incredible amount of pressure. Um, and from a dog handling point of view, you've got to be really careful with that pressure because if you are bringing your stress levels up, your dog is gonna know immediately. And Fjord knew. I mean, Fjord knew immediately and you have to try and remain as calm as possible. And once that uniform goes on, that red unit was like a bit like not a Barbie. I used to have a uniform for Ski Charlie, uniform for fire brigade, uniform for, yeah, it was kind of changing uniforms. But Fjord had the capacity. Dogs do have the capacity to know whether it's sounds or visions, or once they know uniforms on, they know exactly what they're going to do. Um, and yeah, um, you go into that situation and you to be really very honest and I smile to this day'cause I'm back with another team not doing avalanche rescue, but I'm back with Cleave Rescue and there's always gonna be dynamics which are. Yeah, tricky should we say. Yeah. And when you're going in for the avalanche, you've just gotta put everything to the side and there's no way, I dunno if you don't get on with Jean Paul or whatever his name is, or, or, um, Julie, um, yeah, that you've just gotta do it. You've just gotta do it to actually get the result at the end of the day. Yeah. Um, that's what is very, very, um, complex. Um, oh, I bet not just. It's not just the mission, it's actually Yeah. Communication with people who potentially you, you, you, you don't really wanna spend time with, but hey. Yeah. But, um, yeah. And knowing that you've got someone's lives in your hand Yeah. And so to speak. Yeah. And, and so how in the world do you, um. Take that situation where, you know, you've got people now, do you as teams, do you know each other really well or do they just come together and you've just gotta kind of get to know each other super fast? How does that work? I mean, you train throughout the year, I mean the team dog team over about seven, eight dog dog handlers and you're training throughout the year. Um, but there are some stuff which I won't go into, which happened in my team, which was pretty toxic. Um, okay. And this is the iron of it all is you're actually there to help people, but you're actually not helping each other by certain behavioral, right. Um, traits. Yes. Um, so you do train, so you do understand how other people, um, react. Um, and I'd say a lot of the time you've got to be, um, very, very open-minded and very kind towards your other teammates because we all react differently under stress and pressure. Yeah. Um, and coming together as an a fusional team takes so much tweaking. Um, it just doesn't happen like that. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it takes a long time. Um, now I'm in a resort whereby I've been pushed together in a team for a certain sector and I'm getting to know everyone how they function and slowly but surely, and then the old politics are coming up all the time and I kind of like. Yeah. I don't think at the end of the day my work's gonna be any better from being, you know, in this kind of mindset. So kind of step to be functioning. Sometimes you need to do the noise. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very, very, very complex. Um, fascinating. I mean, fascinating. That's why I'm, I'm going further into the whole, um, yeah. Side of things. Exactly, because. There are teams that you are now expanding your capacity. Thank you for doing this work. So moving into other teams, not just around the ski community, let's say, but you are taking your skillset that you've. Developed and learned and showing how people can succeed in teams when there is such a disconnect amongst in between. Mm-hmm. All the players, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I mean, it's not just in the, in the rescue world, I think it's in any team. Hence my, um, really, really kind of, uh, motivated to develop the avalanche simulation clinics because it can actually help teams, um, kind of take off the, you know, the kind of superficial side of potentially what you might get in a, in a closed office environment and bring out right. Potentially the worst, but the best at the same time. So sometimes it takes a while to, you have to expose areas which are not working and work on them. You know, that's what exactly. Um, so yeah, it's, yeah. It's, uh, with the concept of understanding that what you wanna do is betterment for all and the, and the bottom line at the end of the day. Right. So in order to do that, you have to create. Exposure to things that people wouldn't normally be exposed to. But like we talked about in the intro, it brings up the natural tendencies of individuals so that they come to the forefront. And then you can, yeah, okay, here's the real behind the pretty, right? Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And there's another element which I, um, am very, very. Um, focused, and I feel that there's an element which we need to, to look, uh, a lot harder at is psychological safety within teams. Because there's a lot of elements whereby, um, people won't, whether it's to do with pride or whether ego, they won't say they're not doing well. So if there's a team are working on a project Yeah. And you might know, I mean, it's about having a buddy, having a, a person who checks in on you. So in emergency services. You know, uh, we can get, um, fallout, you know, a couple of days, a couple of weeks, even a couple of months later where things will hit us in the Yeah. You know, in the face, so to speak. And I think the same thing can occur in, in business or any other type of groups whereby someone's not doing too well and sometimes people won't even know. Well probably potentially notice small traits of behavior have changed. Right. Um, so I think, um. Going and put yourself in a stressful situation. Yeah, maybe.'cause I've done it all my life and I do love it. I do love it to an extent. But, um, I think it brings out that side of people which can then be worked on, whereas you're never gonna get that, you know, right. During normal team building kind of activity out in the forest, paint balling or whatever you wanna do. Right, right, right, right. So this is the next level. Of team interaction that really uncovers truths in order to be able to come together in a different way. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. For sure. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So when you look back across your years in avalanche rescue, let's say, mm-hmm. What did the mountains teach you about people that no training ever could have? Mm-hmm. Uh, the mountains have always taught me that it's about having respect for that, that environment. Um, I say I call her, she the mountains for me. Yeah. Um, she's incredibly beautiful. Um, but she's got a bit of a mischievous side to her. And if you don't respect all the signs, um, which have been provided to you on a daily or hourly basis, she'll trip you up. Mm-hmm. But then at the end of the day, it's not her fault, it's our fault because we've been given, we've been given everything. And I've seen it on a, you know, a, you know, weekly luckily, but a regular basis in, for example, in the Alps, um, people are given all the signs to kind of keep away from certain areas, or they're advised not to go somewhere and they. We'll go back and, um, yeah, so for me it's respect. Respect and and, and recognizing and, and opening our eyes. And also we talk about gut instinct a lot of the time and people say, yes, you don't go gut instinct, but the second brain, and I am a person whereby I realize that when I think start ringing big, big red bells in my head, it's because my knowledge, which I've acquired through the years has actually given me mm-hmm. That, um, kind of, um. Uh, intelligence to know that something is not quite right. Mm. And it's then to step back, um,'cause you can end up playing a game of, of, of, you know, um, you know, roulette. Um, yeah. Yeah. It might not go, but it might go in the way we're talking about avalanches. But, um, so, yeah. Yeah. Um, as I saying, respect is a big thing, you know? Yeah. Thank you for those words, because what. What I heard really loud and clear, which really resonated with me, is when those red flags go up, you step back. I think our natural propensity is to go in and resolve, whether you're talking about, you know, oh, there's a challenge. I need to meet that challenge, right? Mm-hmm. But to step back and show that respect, so we're talking about mountain, but I can see this clearly aligning with teams and people and self, you know? Mm-hmm. Our show is about for you, by you because of you. When you get that second brain that Caroline just. So eloquently spoke about in the gut. Mm-hmm. We, as women in midlife years are I think taking more time to step back and go, wait a minute, no need to rush to get this done. What's being told to me right now? What is happening? What's going on? Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And ironically, the human nature is to go towards. Um, I mean, if you have an accent on the road, people will naturally stare to it, right? Yes. So we are drawn towards this whole, um, sort of disaster, kind of, we're drawn towards things which are red. Yeah. Um. It's kind of also this whole, I say see again in the mountains, uh, a lot of people will say, oh, and we actually had the case of this, it was actually a very sad case of an avalanche where a 14-year-old child remained under, um, he had a GoPro. It filmed all his, well, the whole thing. Um, and the whole thing was, oh yeah, we go here every year, we go to the same place. It's the same slope we go on. It's. Outside of the resort, but there's always, there's, there's always, um, tracks. Tracks are there. They're fine. They've got through. So again, you're paying that, that's, you, you, you're playing with a, a very high risk level. Yeah. So it is about evaluating what you have in front of you, and there's always another day, isn't there? So, mm-hmm. Yeah. It's, um, yeah, and I, and again, you know, there's loads of stories like that. So yeah. As we say, the red sit back and enjoy the color. Right. I love that. Yes. Yes. Red's great. I love red. Yeah. Take, take your time. Take your time. There is no rush to a finish line, right? Yeah. No, no, no, no. Yeah. No, no, no. This. I mean, the rescue service, again, it's all about self preservation. So we're never gonna put ourselves at risk because someone else has taken a a risk, um, which could put us in danger, so, right, right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what role do team dynamics then play in strengthening outcomes versus creating destruction? Like how can leaders actively shape that difference going into strengthening outcomes versus creating destructions, because milliseconds can make, mm-hmm. That goal this way or that way, can it? Right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Again, I'd say a lot of the time it's actually having this, um, um, a, a global view over your team, as in checking in on everyone, right? And realizing that every person is a, I call it unity, a uh, call it a micro. Um, unit within a team. Yes. And if you're not checking in on everyone, um, leadership is very subtle, a leadership as we, um, it's teamship now. It's not about barking orders, whereas I come from a very old school team where all it was was about barking orders. Um, bullying, actually harassment, um, to try and get a result, which actually it backfired on them because the results didn't occur. Um, and. Whether that's result of their personality, which I think which was the case, but it's if you take care with the team, you take time with the team, and also if you give that team time to breathe and also say, I need some time out, your team will be even more productive because they'll want to actually work harder. And they'll work harder when they're actually in a optimal, um, stage or phase in the, in, in, in, in the project. Right. Um, so I, as I say, it's very, very subtle. I think a, a, a good leader is someone who will sit on the, on, on, on the sideline, so to speak, and you probably won't even know they. They're there. Mm. Um, they're kind of like that guardian angel as, or I would say, right. Okay. The guardian angel, they're looking after their flock. They're bringing their flock together to, to be a, an effective, effective team. Mm-hmm. And also a leader should be able to be someone who you go in and you can ask them, you can sit down, have a chat with them, um, about stuff which you don't understand or you're feeling threatened by. They should be very, very open, right in, in, in different cultures it's different because it's all very much the leader is the person you. You are polite, Tom, you, you, you re um, right. And you've, I think the linguistic side of things can actually make more barriers in the long run. Right. Whereas an Anglo-Saxon kind of, um, environment, we'll say you, and there's been less kind of stigma attached speaking to the CEO or the, the, the person of the company. Um, and I think that's why I got things wrong in the fire brigade because I used to go straight to the, the big boss. If I was upset with something'cause I thought I needed to, right. And I was, you know, kinda my hands kind of, Caroline, you shouldn't have done that. You should have followed the procedure, you know, go to see the sergeant who then goes to see the Colin and who goes to see the ma. And it's just like, right. See, leadership for me is, is like a finely tuned instrument. It takes time to finally tune, um, the leader and then the team right on top. Right? Right. Um, but if that time is taken and that emotional intelligence is there mm-hmm. That's the other thing, right? Yeah. Like thing, uh, you know, uh, we can have a very effective, very well healthy functioning team. Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally. You mentioned communication earlier on in terms of being vital. Is that a big proponent of what you're speaking of? I mean, what you just shared in terms of the Nope. You go, you did the wrong thing. You didn't go direct and had, you don't do that here. You do A, B, C. Mm-hmm. And then it goes up the ladder. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That to me indicates that that's something, um, that is. In need of, I'm gonna say repair because people aren't feeling safe to be able to say things that that need to be said. And communication is about listening and receiving, and not just barking orders, but listening to understand. Right? Mm-hmm. Is that a piece that you feel is important in teams and in leaders? Yeah, definitely. And I say I think a lot of it could, can be cultural, but communication as we know, they, the words, I mean, communication, the spoken word is what, 7%. Right. Um, and it's about how, um, yeah, I mean, yeah. You know, the communication is, is is also what you're doing. Um, and again, I'll bring it even down to the, the, the, the communication I have with my dog or my dog. Still have a dog to this day. Sure. Um. It has to be so finite and, and, and tuned in a way that you are both interacting in a way which is gonna bring a good result. And I think we could learn a lot from human versus canine communication. Um, and the RN of of it all is the, in this team I was in the person who liked to bark. Yeah, he had a series of dogs, which didn't really work very well. Mm. Because he tried to dominate his dogs constantly. And when you try and dominate a dog, uh, especially a certain breed of dog, um, a mair, a Belgium Shepherd, you can end up with very, very, um, oh yeah. Opposite, opposite, um, temperament and opposite behavioral traits. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, it's, it's good to follow procedures. Procedures are there to keep us safe, of course, in the mountain. Um, and they're there to, um, make sure that the, the, uh, project or the, or the mission goes through. Um, but then you need to be able to adapt and you need to be able to adapt to, um, you know, how you're communicating with people. Right. Um, so yeah, it's, um, it's a, a great learning experience for me, um, being in that team for 10 years, but I'm very grateful that I'm no longer there. Right. Yeah. And it was time, right? It was time. There were other things. It was things, it was destiny kind of pulled me another way and, um, I'm out of it now and, um, yeah. Yeah, it's, um, it's, it's good to be able to take everything which I've learned because despite, as we say, when you go through negative, um, not particularly nice experiences, they are also a, a moment of growth. Yeah. Um, which does make you, you know, obviously stronger, but it also helps you move forward and actually help others. Um, exactly. So, yeah, exactly. And, and I, I know for me, a lot of the things that I share and talk about with clients and when I do, you know, different events and whatnot, is about the idea around leadership of self and how important it is. As you spoke about that, that gut brain that tells you, wait a minute, wait a minute. We get to listen to those pieces and nobody gets to tell us otherwise. It's up to us to be able to know who we are as individuals. And I, I have, my experience has always been those leaders that I've had throughout my career prior to doing what I do now in education. Um, the leaders that I absolutely adored were very. Knowledgeable about who they were, and they were also very, um, I'm gonna say communicative in their presence. Not just in their words, they didn't just stand, they weren't the sage on the stage. They were genuine. Right. They were who they were, whether they were at the front of the stage for the opening address or whether they were coming into your school or whatever. They just were solid human beings, good people. Mm-hmm. Who took time, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Time is precious and it's, it's taking that time to give that time to people Yeah. And to actually be approachable. Right. Um, so I think that's another aspect. You don't feel that you can approach someone. Um, that's when things start, the, the, the barriers start coming up. Right. Um, so yeah. Yeah, yeah. There's some good leaders. Funny how, we imagine leaders always to be these kind of, the, the posture of someone standing there and kind of shouting on, I'm not gonna name one, one in particular person. Um, yep, yep, yep. Um, yeah. Around the world, um mm-hmm. And it's the ones in behind the scenes which make things or help things flow, um, right. Very subtly, but, uh, in a very, I'd say, as said before, emotionally intelligent way, so, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And, I mean, I'll give you an example of my dog. I, yeah, just sorry to cut you. Give an example of my dog, you know, I used to be accused of being too soft with him and, um, I had to put a bed in the cage and they were like, oh, no, no, it's a working dog. He, he needs to be in a hard, and I was just like thinking, well, how about you sleep on the floor tonight? Are you gonna work well in the morning? Right? And he's like, yes, he's a working dog and you're too soft. And I said, well, why does my dog work? Um, oh, he works, he works well because he's, he's, he, he just has it in him. I was like, well, no, that doesn't, that's not the case. You know, a dog handler, you know, brings out the best or the worst in their dog. Totally. So, yeah, I, it's again about, I, I know we call them French, which is dog, you know, master as the translator as okay. And, you know, we are not mastering a dog at all. We shouldn't be mastering a dog. As I say, it's a team. We should be working together in fusional effective, gentle, loving way. Right. Um, so yeah. Right. Yeah. And the softy Caroline here really like, really, Caroline. Really? Gee. It's like, I know it's, but it, but you're to your point, well. How does my dog perform? Oh, it's a great dog. Mm-hmm. It is a great dog, and I see that and I know that, and I love him for that because he's giving me as much as I'm able to give back to him. Mm. Right. It's that dual relationship, so, yeah. Isn't that interesting? I, I love how you talk too about dogs know animals know people they know the energy Horses know. The energy. Mm-hmm. They just have that seventh, eighth sense, whatever it might be. Um mm-hmm. And so how long have you had Fjord? Uh, Fjord I had for 10 years. He's no longer with me now. Okay. Okay. He died just before lockdown. Um, oh. So, yeah, quite sad. He collapsed prior to just after an avalanche training. Um, he got bored in the uk. I couldn't train him in the UK because the English team are like, no, no, no. Your qualification's not valid here in England. So, oh. Yeah, he got bored eight socks and ended up hurting himself inside. So he was with me for, he died when he was nine. Okay. Um, but I now, I now have another dog. Um Okay. And she's a female. And up until last year, um, I think it was last year, the year before, no female avalanche dogs were allowed in France, it was only males. Okay. So anyway. Yeah. We're gonna let that sit. It was never Yeah. Yeah. Historically, I think there was an avalanche. She went wrong, and as a result, they decided to ban the weaker or whatever the per the element, which would've put the males off their work. So when I took my female, I knew she couldn't be an avalanche dog. Now they've allowed to have females, but it's too late. She's too old now to do it. Okay. Yeah. So I've trained her in something else. I've trained her in bed bedbug detection. Oh wow. So she, she could detect bedbugs, just wanted to give it something to do. Um, you know. Yeah. And it is either, um, yeah, trailing or right drugs or explosives, and those are the kind of things I can't just get a hold of down the road. So I thought, right. Yeah. Get a hold of bedbugs. Yeah. There you go. Pretty consistent opportunities Oh dear. Decide to keep her her healthy mentally and, and yeah. Keep me knowing that she's doing something, she's gonna got a, got a, a bit of a purpose, you know, in her life. Yeah. For sure. Not a dog needs a purpose, but they, you know, they are Yeah. Animals in the day who like to go out and hunt and be in a pack, so, of course. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. You're, you're being true to their nature, which is key. I mean, yeah, totally. Totally. What you're about in terms of giving support to the animals that you love. Amazing. Mm-hmm. Is there anything that you would love to leave our audience with? It's been such an incredible opportunity to share this space and time and conversation with you. Caroline. Such a gift to have met you. I'm so honored for this time. Is there anything? Thank you. I'm very honored. Yeah. Anything you'd love to share with the audience as, as we wrap up our conversation today? I would, um, and this may sound a bit strange, but I would say that, you know, my communication with my dogs is probably the most finite and beautiful kind of relationship I have. I would, again, with all the work I do, just in predominantly in teams, is kindness. Um, yeah. And respect, um, towards your fellow members, you might not like them. As a person, we are not, you know, we, we come into the world where the people we don't like. Right. But, um, you've got to be gentle with people because, you know, we all have to live on the plant together, you know, all work in the, in teams together. And, um, there's so much stuff going on in the world now mm-hmm. That I think a little bit of kindness and, and love and, and care towards every person. Um, not that it's always easy in stressful situations. Um, it said, just try, try your best. And again, if you're on ski slopes, you're out there skiing, guys, skiing, it is just turn around and, and be respectful for others. I mean, the other day I got shouted at, um, quite badly by some clients and I was just like, I ended up crying. You know, I went back up to my ski patrol hunt and crying. So, yeah. Um, were all there trying to, yeah, do what we're doing in, in life. So kindness and and respect are my two go-tos. For sure and thank you for that. And, and I think when my experience has been, when that doesn't come naturally for individuals, the way that my former behavior resource teacher brain works is that there's something within them. That is hurting, that they can't see the value of being kind. They can't even be kind to themselves, so they push it out and give it to everybody else. The disrespect, that's the only way that I can reframe it in order to be able to hold it in a way that doesn't affect me deeply. Right. Yeah. Because people, mm-hmm. Wow. We've got such an incredible. Breadth and depth of individuality. Mm-hmm. And what you just shared I think is missing and it's almost like we have to reteach it. Mm-hmm. Oh, definitely. Definitely. For sure. Right? Yep. Mm-hmm. And how unfortunate. So I'm so glad that you have the relationship that you have with your animals to be able to hold that anchor in a way that is non-negotiable and it's unconditional. So thank you for being that light to help guide teams in ways that they need to experience so that they can really put the rubber to the road and understand who they are as individuals to bring a team aspect together that is successful. And I love the idea of your simulation. That sounds amazing. Look at you. Come, come, come and bury you in a hole. Come, come, come over to the to the else. Mean I can, there's, there's any resort in, in, in the, in the North America Who would like me to, to come bring you on board. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm open for it. Um, yeah. So yeah, for sure be a mix of that. Pushing people in holes, um, but also bit of cold water. Pushing you outta your depths, basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Such an interesting way to go about it, and thank you for bringing it forward today In our conversation, we will have thank you ways to connect with Caroline in the show notes, so make sure you go and check the show notes. Caroline, thank you again for your no thank you time and your expertise. I love it. It's been such a pleasure to get to know you a little bit further. I. Thank you so much for your time and yeah, just, just wonderful. It's very, very energizing for me to speak to someone like yourself, so thank you. Thank you. If you have had something, uh. I'm gonna say trigger not the best word to use, but that's what's coming forward. So I'm using it. If you've had something trigger or set inside of you from our conversation today, make sure that you tap back in. That red flag came up, step back. Don't jump forward. Step back, take that space and pause. Check out the show notes. Find Caroline. And make sure that you share, follow like our show so that other people can find us. Have a great day, everyone, and we are going to continue to thrive after 45.