Episode 8 -- The Forgotten Beverage

I do love a good cocktail; and even though I'm drinking less alcohol, I'm finding that my spirits are not dampened with a lack of non-alcoholic options! (I couldn't resist.) Listen in on this conversation with mixologist, hospitality genius, and friend, JJ Porter. We're talking about time around the table with the element of a meal that sometimes goes overlooked: the spirited beverage. Grab a seat, there's plenty of room at Fran's Table!

Transcript

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You know, there is not a thing wrong with eating your dinner over the sink or in front of the television, and I am a big believer in grabbing comfort wherever you can find it. But in my experience of the world, it seems to me that the very best moments around food, around companionship, occur at the table. Now, we may talk about food around this table on account of it's one of my favorite subjects. But we may talk about other things as well, just like around, oh, I don't know, a regular table where we have conversations and we connect and we learn about one another, and that's the magic. This is Fran's Table. Grab a chair. There's plenty of room Thank you for coming, jj. This has been a long time coming. Yes, it has. And I know that, um, I go on about food a lot and that's just because I think it's fun and I like to play in the kitchen and it's sort of my creative outlet. I think that's something we have in common too. Yes. Um, but I, as much as I love a good cocktail and I do love a good cocktail, um, and as much as I really enjoy wine and I know squat about wine, um, I know very little about beverages in general. And so it was really fascinating to me when we were talking not so long ago, although now it's been so long ago because I've been slow. It feels like it's a little bit my fault as well. That's the curse of being busy, you know, happy people. Um. But I, we were not so long ago, we were talking about how you as a mixologist, is that how you would describe yourself? Oh, yeah. Okay. Are inspired by and informed by what's going on in the kitchen, in the places where you work and in and in your own life too. I'm imagining. Oh, yeah. So that was like magic to me. That's like total magic. So tell me more about what that really means to you, and while you're at it, tell me a little more about how you would introduce yourself, because that's important, you know, some, some people would brand you a certain way, like as bartender or, um, hospitality industry. Both of those are like accurate. Sure. I say mixologist, but introduce yourself and then. And then we talk about food and drink. Yeah, and it's funny, I have a funny story about that. So I'm jj um, JJ Porter. I am, uh, I work in the hospitality industry here in the Raleigh Durham area. Um, and, uh, I have a former background in tech as a software developer for a few years. And, uh, got laid off in that industry and just literally fell into, um, working behind a bar. And so the funny story is that I, um, the first time someone called me a mixologist, I, I kind of like scolded them really. I was like, oh, don't you dare, don't you dare call me. I'm a bartender. And, and, uh, and so, and I did that for a while, uh, probably a year and a half or so. And then I read a book, uh, I don't even remember what book it was. But it was a, it was an old book from the early 19 hundreds and uh, it consistently used the term mixology or mixologist, really? And it was like, wait a minute. I thought that was totally modern. Oh no, it's been around for a long time. And so, uh, and then I learned about like, uh, different like mixologist clubs back in the day and things like that. And it's like, these are, this is really cool. And so, um, so whether it's hospitality, professional bartender mix, I, I welcome it all. Just don't call me an ass. Like you do have boundaries. I was, there are some boundaries there. Um, but, um, but yeah, no, that's, that's who I am today. And, uh, that has, uh, has now. That career has now formed little branches from it, and there's different things going on within that. And, um, and this has only been for the past. I, I got into this industry back in spring of 2023. Oh my gosh. Um, but you've done so much in that period of time. It feels like it, yeah. Yeah. You definitely have do are now. So I know that you are well read and you do a lot to enliven and inform your, your career. Um, do you, is there a particular bar, bartender, author, or restaurant that it, that it, that has either like guided you or, you know, like how, 'cause you've done a lot of growing in three years? Yes. And to answer your question, yes. Um, yeah. So I, when I first got started, I was a bar here in, or excuse me, at a restaurant here in Durham. And, um, I, after the first three-ish weeks, I was the only bartender, really. And yeah. And so, uh, not only was that the most daunting thing of my life, um, it was like a, I, I need help. Um, and so I literally went on Instagram to, uh, I found this guy I had met at a, uh, a bartending event, and I messaged him, um, and was like, Hey, you don't know me, or you may not remember me. This is who I am. I need help. Would you be open to helping me? And he was like, yeah. Oh, that's so cool. And so, so cool. Uh, and we're still friends today and we still talk today. And I did the same thing with. It was a restaurant, um, downtown. And I messaged their Instagram not knowing who was gonna answer this, but I was like, know, I think I was a little more bold then I was like, I really want to like talk to the owner, uh, and I need him to help me. And the person who responded was like, well, we'll see what we can do. We'd be love to help you. Come, come on in. And there was this woman who was the bar manager at the time and she was like, yeah, sure. So she like would, we would talk from time to time, she'd gimme books to read. And that's just kind of how it all got started. God, that's so cool. But that makes perfect sense that people would say yes to you for that because that kind of curiosity and that kind of desire to know more and to to know more deeply is just gold. I mean, really, because it's not like you're there. You can do, you know, what's required of you, but it sounds like you're way more interested in more than that. Yeah. So I'm a nerd. Yay. Uh, just by, just at heart. Um, I, yeah. I love to get into the, like nitty gritty of things. Um, the stuff that most people don't really give a shit about. Yeah. I care about. And so, um, and I have to stop myself when I'm working because someone asks a question about, you know, a whiskey or something like that. Like, I will have to literally stop myself from talking, um, and give them like, basic stuff on this bottle of whiskey and then hold myself before I go into like, this is how it's distilled. And they use this kind of, you know, yeast and strain in the, their fermentation. And, you know, it's, oh my God. But I love that stuff. And so there. Like I and you do that, and they're like, yeah, I guess I'll take that. Like, they're like, they don't give a shit. And so, uh, well, they probably just don't know what to do with it, you know? But like I saw, was it, was it a post or a blog that you did recently on Jen? It was a blog. Oh my God. Yeah. What's the name? Your blog? So the blog is called Tales from the Back Bar. Oh my God. Which is a brilliant, I mean, I didn't even notice the, the title Forgive me because I knew it was jj. And so I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna read that shit. But, but I remem But that was, you're exactly right though. It's nerdy, but it's really fun, nerdy, and it's really an interesting mix, particularly as you talk about gin. It gets into the socioeconomic elements. Yeah. Of what influences these cultural phenomenon. I mean, it's so cool. Yeah. There's so much you can trace about just like history and evolution of. A place around spirits. Oh God, that's so cool. Yeah. And so, uh, but yeah, no, that particular blog post I did because, uh, Jen gets hated on probably the most out of anything. And I love Jen that surprised the shit out me. Yeah. Because I am such a gin drinker. Oh, same. Oh my God. So I had to, that's why I wanted to set the record straight. No haters for Jen. No haters. I mean, you know, you like what you like, you don't like what you don't like, and it, and it's fine. But, uh, and I think that's why some of your clients in the way that you sort of portray them, when you start talking about how something is distilled and the, and the flavoring that goes into and the history, it's not even so much that they're like, they don't give a shit. It's that they're like. Okay. But I still don't like Jen, you know, or I still don't like brown liquor. There's that too. And so, you know, we always have to work around that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Well have, have you, have you found that it's, it is fun, more fun to tap into what people know they like? Or also is it fun to sort of challenge them to change their mind about something, whether it's gin or, or even, you know, whether they like sweet or savory or that kind of thing? Or do you just like try to tap into what they know they like and then build on that? It's a bit of both, is it for me? Um, and it's also one of those, this is where like being able to read someone comes into play a lot. Yeah. Because there's sometimes people will sit down and they're like, I like this. This is what I want. And you can kind of tell by their demeanor and how they talk. Like, okay, well they're not interested. Anything else over here. They want what they want and that's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's sometimes where people are, uh, actually this exact thing happened, um, on, on Saturday. Um, and this lady, these two ladies came in. One lady was just very adventurous and she's like, I like this. I typically don't like gin. And, and so one of the cocktails I made her, I made her three cocktails at night. One of them was a gin cocktail. And um, you know, as long as they're not allergic to it, I'm not trying to kill anyone. But, um, but you know, it, in that scenario, it was one of those where it could be like, okay, I can take what you like, but also take these other things that maybe you're not familiar with or maybe you've had a bad experience with, um, and bring something balanced to the table. Um. And see what you think. If you like it, cool. If you don't, you know, it is what it is. We'll try again. Um, and that's awesome. Yeah. And just, you know, the whole like, um, you know, as far as like sweet, savory kind of thing, you know, most people, uh, you know, we hear a lot of people say, I, I don't like some, anything too sweet. Yeah. Which that's kind of what I say usually. Oh, same. And so, uh, unless I'm in a particular mood, which very rarely happens, but, um, usually that means that early. How I would interpret that is balance. And uh, that makes perfect sense because there's always gonna be an element of sweet in something. There's always gonna be some level of savory and some level of citrus to balance it all out. And, um, but it's a matter of like. How balanced are those ratios? You know, if it's, if you bump up the sugar a little too much, then it's gonna taste a little too sweet. Um, and same, and that, and, and that brings me to my next issue. 'cause that's so true about food too. Mm-hmm. Like, people like desserts, but a, it depends on the culture that, of the dessert maker, as it were. Mm-hmm. And b, it also depends on, you know, like the kind of sugar you're using, not just how much you know, and whether or not there's any depth or contrast. And that, like, um, I was talking the other day, who was I talk, oh, we were talking about making, um, hot chocolate from scratch and Right. And that in addition to using cocoa powder and, um, sugar and milk, you should always add a pinch of salt. And that, that really brings out the, that cocoa flavor. And, um. That's, that's what's so cool, like when you talk about balance and also acidity. Mm-hmm. I'd never thought about balancing acidity with an alcohol, with a spirit, you know? And that, so, so now we sort of, we're, we're stepping into the kitchen even more. So that feels like familiar territory to me. How does one determine that determine balance and, you know, of acidity or, um, salinity or other thing? I mean, how, how on earth does one experiment with that, with spirits? So, uh, some of that come at least I'll, I'll tell my experience. I wanna put a blanket statement across all hospitality professionals. My experience was making a lot of bad fucking cocktails. Like, I don't believe you. I'm sure they were good. Oh yeah, you can. My wife will attest to that. Um, she's become a lot more direct. Okay. Which is fine. And so, um, but that was my experience and, you know, taking very basic cocktails like a daiquiri, you know, it's three ingredients, it's rum, it's lime, it's sugar. And playing with like, if I, you know, take this particular, you know, spec of a daiquiri recipe and I up the sugar by just a little, a quarter, an ounce or anything like that, like what's gonna happen to this? I'm like, okay. It's a little sweeter than I like it to be, or if I up the lime and, and kind of play with that. Or if I like, keep the citrus and sugar the same, I just u the alcohol amount. Like how's that? And um, and it's kind of going like that with different types of cocktails. And then as I learned more, started adding in. Yeah, other components like, uh, salinity and so like if I'm making a, like an, I love good coffee cocktail, really, I love coffee in cocktails. So anytime I add coffee to a cocktail where I want the coffee to like stand out a bit, I will always add a pinch of sugar or have a couple jobs with a saline solution to it to kind of make that, that's cool. Coffee, just pop a little bit more. Um, or adding other sort of savory components, whether that be in the form of like a bitters or, um, using some herbs, um, or different kind of spices to kind of add in that, or lately been using things like playing with vinegars and ooh, yummy and things like that. And so it's been interesting kind of seeing like if I take this base and make these. Minor adjustments, like how does that affect the overall drink? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, um, and so yeah, I kind of, sort of, uh, imagine, imagine that a bit of what goes on with a chef. Um, well, I bet it's made you a better cook. Do you like to cook? I, hmm. I like to, I used to like to cook a lot, cook a lot more than I do now. Uh, not that I don't like to cook, I just don't do it as often. Right. Um, but mostly 'cause I'm getting home super late at night and I don't really wanna do anything. Right. But, um, but when I do, um, you know, my wife and I, we would have different dishes that we would, um, have on a somewhat periodic basis. And so like we would have this like salmon dish we would make, and, uh, every now and then we would play with like what to pair with it or. You know, one day we tried this marinade, let's try this one next time. Oh, that's so fun. Um, you know, or let's try these seasonings or try cooking it this way. And, and so even just with that one dish, we kind of experimented with it and we kind of found out like, okay, we kind of liked it this way better last or last time we had it, as opposed to this time, this is still good, but the last one's better. Wow. That's so fun though. And, and do you, do you find, like when you've approached, uh, 'cause you were talking about how in the past you might have approached the kitchen staff, um, just sort of get their participation. Now have they with that, and I'm not mentioning, you know, names or anything, but have they been open to that? I mean, it seems like a natural extension for the bar staff and the kitchen staff to work together. How often does that happen? I, the first thing I typically do when I start a new place is. Get to know the kitchen staff Uhhuh. Um, and so where I'm working now, the, uh, the person who was our head chef, I would have him taste any, he was also, uh, he didn't drink. He was sober, but he was willing to taste anything and give feedback. And so I would do that with him constantly. And he was a, he worked in kitchens all over the country, up in New York and West Coast, and been all over the place. And some, some of the spots he worked in were Michelin star restaurants. And so I was like, damn, okay. So wow. It's like not just so I couldn't trust other feedback, but like he would tell me how it is. Yeah. And so, um, so yeah, anytime I came up with anything that I was excited about or wanted to try or tweak, I would have him taste it, gimme feedback, and um, he would, he would, he would say like. Have you thought about adding this or, this is good. Let's, like, I could go with a little more like, um, you know, citric acid in this or something, anything along those lines. I'm like, okay, cool. Let's try it. Well, um, and oh, I forget the woman's name. I mean Nora with salt fat, heat acid. She's a famous author and chef and, um, I think I've got her name right. Um, I know that the four elements then, according to that approach are salt, fat, heat acid. And I love that you were saying that the chef would sort of say, have you considered adding a little bit of acidity? Do you ever work with fats in, in beverages though? Does that apply to beverages? Absolutely. Really? Yeah. How, what kinds of Right. Like, okay, the first thing, because I'm a southerner, I'm thinking like, could you use bacon, fat? Absolutely. No fucking way. Absolutely. That's so cool. Okay. I'm sold. Yeah, that's my new signature drink, whatever it is. Oh my God. If you can make bacon, fat and gin play together nicely. Oh my God, jj So this whole, like, I, I'm not gonna say I know when this started 'cause I don't, but it is become a very, very popular, wide, widely used technique, uh, called fat washing. And so you are taking, let's say in this case, a spirit uhhuh. We will use whiskey as an example and some form of fat. So we'll say bacon fat. Yep. And you mix those together. Um, the fat will start to separate, throw that in the freezer overnight. And so the fat will freeze, the spirit will not, and you strain that out and you have, you'll, you'll have the, um, the solidified fat, you know, leftover and you do what you please with that. Um, but the liquid will be infused with the fat from whatever you mixed in there. Really. So, yeah. And a lot of bars, uh, that you go to will have on their menu, they'll have, there's actually a bar here in Durham every fall. I'm not sure how long you keep it on their menu, but every fall they have a cocktail that's duck fat washed bourbon. Oh my god. On their menu. And it's a delicious cocktail. I am losing my mind. But that makes perfect sense because then you get the smoke and the salt and the, and the things that feel so intangible and magical about whatever kind of fat it is that you, but duck fat and bacon fat. Oh my God, that sounds good. It's delicious. What about butter? Same like brown butter washed Oh my god. Uh, skirts. Yeah. And so what you're doing with that is it's different way to now feel to their cocktail without having to add a dozen different ingredients to it. And so, um, because the more contact that liquid ha that beverage has in your mouth, the more it hangs out in the mouth, uh, it, it feels nicer. Like, um, as opposed to something that feels real thin, that you take a sip, hates you with a burst of flavor, then immediately dies, falls Yeah. You know, um, that kind of, sort of consistency for a little while longer before it fades away is a much nicer feeling. And so, um, and feels like a more full cocktail. Yeah. And so, yeah, it's become a very, very popular, uh, method. Ooh, God, that's so cool. And it has to be, I mean, that would be, so speaking of nerdy, that would be so interesting to see if the way that it carries the flavor has anything to do with any remaining like fatty, you know, deposits as it were in the liquid, because fat of course, carries flavor in meat. Mm-hmm. I mean, that's what you wanna, um, you don't want an entirely tr unless you know, all you want is the flavor of the fiber. But I mean, fat is just magical stuff. But then by the same token too, we, we do so much the various fats that we love, you know, we, we salt it and we spice it, and we age it. And that's another thing too. God, that would be so cool. And you said that that's pretty broadly Yeah. Used these days. Oh my God, I gotta get out more. I think most of the places I've been to, I've, I've probably seen nine out, nine out of 10 bars. On a menu. Wow. Have fat wash. Yeah. Somewhere on, on the cocktail menu. Well, so, um, two things. Okay. I want, I also want to talk, you were talking about a chef who has been sober for a number of years, but helps with sort of flavor profiles and things. Help me remember that. I want to talk about your work with non-alcoholic cocktails too, which is so cool. I have so many people in recovery in my life have been successful in recovery for so long. Um, but talking about like people at home, 'cause I'm like a home cook. I have no aspiration to be a professional chef. Um, you know, I cook for friends and I have been in other people's homes to cook for them at events and that kind of thing. But in other words, nothing I do is gonna translate into a professional kitchen. And so how would. A home cook experiment with some of these really cool, lofty, little bit nerdy, but also wildly interesting ways of interacting with spirits. In particular, like is there, you said that you did a lot of initial work just getting into mixology and bar work by, you know, going online. But is there also like a place that you would go to like learn about how to do a fat wash that thank you by the way, for giving us a primer on that, but where, how else would I pursue that and, and get to be better about that and with that some, some kind of book or person you recommend. So that's a good question. The way it happened with me was just one seeing it a lot in bars and then being like, what is this? Yeah. Um, and then just kind of going home and. Uh, researching it online and, um, I haven't read about it in too many books. I also haven't read many books as on things like that. Yeah. Uh, most of the books I'm reading are on like, particular spirit categories. Like the book I'm reading right now is called Agave Spirits and talks about like this history of like tequila and mezcal and all these other agave spirits that exist in the world. Um, but for me it was kind of just like a bit of self experimentation. So I made, I was working on a, um, a gin martini style cocktail last year. Oh my God. I say last year, like, was so long ago. But, um, uh, this was just the kind of the end of the summer, early fall and um, it was kind of a, um, Japanese inspired ooh, um, gin martini. And so I was using a Japanese. Uh, called Roku, which is one of my favorites. And, uh, I wanted to incorporate, um, toasted sesame. Oh. And so I kind of had these different ways I was doing, and one way I tried was, uh, washing the gin with sesame oil and I didn't, it turned out a little too Sesam mini, if that's a word. But, um, but, um, but yeah, there's a, uh, and I'm trying to think of the author's name. There is a book, I don't know if he talks about this particular, um, thing in the book, but I know he talks about just kind of how to use what you have at home. And, um, it's called Bartender's Pantry. And this is bad 'cause I actually went to an event where he specifically spoke about the book here in Durham. Wow. If you're listening, I'm sorry. Um, yeah. Welcome to Real Life. Yeah. Um, but what he talks a lot about looking into your spice cabinet and getting familiar with, you know, what things taste like and smell like. And, uh, going back to things that you maybe haven't been around in a while, uh, to kind of remind yourself, oh, this has this kind of taste to this kind of aroma. And, um, and then kind of using those to, you know, taking a spirit or a cocktail and using these other things that you have and saying like, okay, you know, you take a sip cocktail, like, man, I wish this needs be nice to have some more, like, uh, a little more spice notes to it. And like, oh, in your cabin you've got like cinnamon and all spice and clove and things like that that you can use to, um, add those elements to it. Oh my god. Or that's, you know, if you wanna add like, yeah, uh, savoriness or acidity, then, you know, using things like a. Um, rice vinegar is amazing that will provide both. And, um, and so yeah, he, he talks a lot about that. And, uh, Jim Meehan, that's his name. Woo. Yay. Well done. Pulling it up for the depth. Go, go, dude. Thank you so much. Um, but yeah, Jim Behan, uh, he's written several books, but this is a more recent one of his and, um, just, and also just a very knowledgeable, fantastic bartender. Um, but he just kind of talks about using just what you have to be able to create, still create something beautiful and, um, which I've been kind of taking to heart a bit lately. Yeah. Um, and using things that we already have at home. Um, and I'll, I'll go out and buy some things here and there, but, uh, but our. Our category, keep our spices and things like that and oils and vinegars and all that stuff. So I, we'll play around with that stuff and, and just kind of see what happens and, oh my God, which is, going back to my earlier comment, I made a lot of shitty cocktails. So, or, or cocktails with a, what is it? Sesame Forward for flavor profile. I did eventually get that to how I wanted it, but had to use a different method for it. But, um, but yeah, it's um, I love that and I love this sort the sort of sustainability element to it too. Like you were saying, using what you have in your cupboard and experimenting with it too. 'cause the other thing about that is that a better also gives you a better understanding of the ingredient itself. Absolutely. I mean, you're really, really tasting it. You're not just throwing it in because the recipe. Requires it or, which is also fine. Mm-hmm. Um, but also that way you can experiment when you understand what that flavor is doing. You know, like where the high notes are, where the, um, you know, the always confounding to me, but, but compelling word. Umami. Yeah, umami. I, I will spend my whole life trying to figure out what that actually means. But, but you know, it's really, it makes food that much more fun to me when I start thinking about, you know, what it really means to my palate. Mm-hmm. And what better way to do that than with beverages too? 'cause distilled in every sense of the word, it's like a really, you, you don't have like a whole plate full of food with differing textures and differing notes and elements that are sometimes separate, but then brought together like, you know. Uh, and hopefully that all of those elements in a plate of food play well together and relate to one another. But a drink is like a singular statement. It is like a cup that has a complex sometimes thing to say. Mm-hmm. And you don't get like, you know, the, the crunchy topping. Although you could, you most certainly could. Okay. I am so deeply so. So the other thing then that I love about today's mixologist is that you and, and your co food, hospitality people and bartenders and mixologists are ever more mindful of the patron who may or may not drink. Mm-hmm. And for whatever reason, whether it's recovery or just like our son Charlie, he just doesn't like it. He just doesn't like it. Fair. But he, I mean. He deserves to have like a fun, special, you know, absolutely. Cup of something yummy. So what inspired, was it work related, um, necessity that inspired? 'cause you're doing some really cool stuff with non-alcoholic beverages. To be honest. It was, I have a, uh, a friend who's a bartender here in Durham and uh, he, um, he stopped drinking and um, you know, and uh, went and kind of put this focus on creating really good non-alcoholic cocktails for the bar he was working at at the time. And, uh, and so one day him and I were talking and. He just kind of told me this story of his, uh, um, of kind of that part of his life and, uh, why he chose the route he did. And, uh, and it was, it was a beautiful story. And so, um, and so it kind of got me thinking more about, uh, like, yeah, why don't we have more good non-alcoholic cocktails? And so fast forward, like, God, it has to be like a year, a little over a year maybe. And, um, I was work, I just started working in Raleigh and um, was trying to, I was partly on my way out of working in this place. But, uh, was still trying to advocate for some non-alcoholic cocktails and, um, it didn't happen, but that's okay. And so, um, it happened where I'm working now, but the whole reason behind it for me was I, so I personally don't struggle with drinking too much or anything like that, although if you came to my house, you'd probably think otherwise because it is a tool of the trade. It, it is. And I have a lot of tools and so, um, but uh, yeah, my wife and I, we, we don't really drink a lot at home unless someone comes over and wants to try something, then we'll bring some, break something out. But otherwise it's, might have a glass of wine here and there, and that's, that's about it. Um, although I do also enjoy a good beer. But, uh, so for me, it, it was not necessarily that I didn't really have an issue, but it was also at the same time, it was one of those kind, kind of living by the, just because it's not a, I'm not affected by it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist sort of mindset. Yeah. And so, um, so yeah, there are people who have trouble with that. There are people who are sober because of whatever in their life, or there's people who just like, like your son, they just don't want Yeah. They still love it. Yeah. You know, um, and so any of those is fine. And also whatever the reason is, that's their reason. And no one really, no one else really needs to know about it. That's exactly right. And so, um, although I am glad that these days people are more and more sort of accepting, like at, maybe it's because of my age, maybe it's people my age are more and more accepting and less and less sort of judgmental about if you're not drinking, you know, it's like, yeah. Well. Good on you. Yeah. What are you doing? Can I do that too? Right. So yeah, it just kind of was like, uh, a lot of the places I've been, you know, if you ask for an a alcohol cocktail, you get something super sugary, top with a soda, and, uh, and that was kind of it. And so, um, and so I did, went and did all this like history and research just on non-alcoholic cocktails, non-alcoholic spirits. And, um, I wanted to do this sort of mini training for bartenders, bar managers, bar owners, whoever in the hospitality, uh, industry. And I partnered with, um, a, a rep who's local, who gave me some bottles of, um, their non-alcoholic experience. Really? Yeah. Nice. And so, um, so. Added to the toolbox. And, uh, and so I, and I held onto them for about a year because I was, I wasn't able to get the logistics worked out. And so I, uh, I partnered with the local Bartenders Guild chapter and, um, the president of it is a good friend of mine. I used to work for him back, uh, not too long ago. And, um, and so he knew I've been wanting to do this, and so he was like, Hey, um, we also have this guy doing who has a non-alcoholic wine coming, um, in November. Like, would you want to like do your part with him? And I was like, oh, hell yeah. Oh my God. And so, so we did, and, um, collaborations are so cool. Oh yeah. Talk about expanding your mind and, you know, getting, getting exposure to how other people taste and think and, and stories. Yeah. And so long story short, we. Had that training. And then, um, I made three cocktails for that. And essentially just kind of showing like, sort of an evolution of like starting at how basic as fuck you can be up to like doing something really cool. And so, um, and so the one that was really cool was this cocktail that was using a, uh, non-alcoholic gin alternative with a earl grade tea that I kind of like, um, sort of concentrated steep, that's not a real term, but uh, kind of it is now added more tea bags per liquid than is normally recommended. Um, and then threw in, let some sage leaves, soak with that, some, a little honey to, for, uh, sweetened sweetness. And then, uh. Added some, um, little apple cider vinegar. Um, ooh. You know, because apple cider vinegar is kind of a byproduct of the, uh, distillation, fermentation distillation process, but without the alcohol. I did not know that. And so, yeah. Um, and then, so it, it kind of gives that, like a bit of that bite that you would normally get from a spirit. Um, so to kind of mimic that and then also use a little bit of, uh, xanthin gum, which just kind of adds some texture. Um, and then took all that, mixed it and clarified it with, uh, coconut cream, cocoa Lopez fat washing. Similar. Similar. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, uh, fat washing, you kind of let it like freeze over, freeze for a while, and then you lift it out, you lift it out. This, you literally just add in a dairy product, whether it's milk, cream, whatever. Uh, I've seen people do it with yogurt and, um. You let that sit for a while until, um, you know, usually like 15, 20 minutes maybe. It doesn't really take long before it starts to curdle and then straightening out through a cheesecloth and there you are. Um, my God. And so that was my, my third cocktail, like putting some like fun thought and doing something interesting with a non-alcoholic spirit. And so that cocktail, someone later was like, what was that like? And so I, I was like, I give you the recipe, like I don't care. Um, you know, go make it for yourself. And so they were like, could do you have more of it? And I was like, actually I do. And so I like a few, like I had a big like Canberra container and uh, so I let them have some and they were like, I can I buy this from you? Yes. I was like, yes, sure. And so, um, so it's kind of snowball snowballed from there. And, um, then another person asked for like a non-alcoholic espresso martini and Oh my God. And so, and I, you know, it was funny because you made some non-alcoholic, um, beverages for me over Christmas and, um, I loved how you worked with the flavor profiles. I offered like generic stuff like this. Like my daughter for example, she likes gin. Um, she likes sweeter things. And I have another friend who likes, you know, sort of whiskey flavored things. But I also love that, um, these kinds of things because they're unfamiliar to us. They expand our, our taste profile for sure. And the other thing though is that it's just fun because. I when you, when you were telling the story just now about the friend who was like, this was great. Can I have more? And you're like, oh, you can make it yourself. I'm thinking to myself, no, the hell I couldn't. So it's fun because it expands my horizons, but I, it's also great because it's not that I don't care to learn, it's that I think you're undervaluing what you can do. I mean, the way you taste and the way you imagine is pretty cool. So I'm glad that people are like, calling you to task and saying, make more damn it and sell it to me. Yeah. So this was never a plan that I had. Yeah. It, it really wasn't. Yeah. Uh, I would, I wanted to create some na cocktails for whatever bar I was working at. Yeah. Just so that people coming in who don't drink or are choosing not to drink that evening or whatever the case is that they. Could also have something that was just as nice as their friend next to 'em drinking an alcoholic cocktail. And so, um, and I still plan on doing that. I'm not gonna stop. Yeah. But, um, you know, they want, that person wants as much care and as much attention and love put in into their non-alcoholic cocktail as the person who got their alcoholic cocktail. That's exactly right. Now are you gonna start naming them? I will. Um, and the, so I, I, I did recently name a cocktail. We just put out a new menu, um, about a month ago, the bar I work at. And I did make a cocktail and I did name that one. Um, but before that, I had named, had not named a cocktail in probably, I don't know, almost a year. Um, because. Again, I'm a nerd. And so, uh, I love incorporating my nerdiness into my craft. And oh, it's a part, it's just a part of you, jj, you're not incorporating. That's absolutely fabulous. It is a part of me. You're correct. And so, uh, I remember I, I helped open a bar out in Wake Forest, um, back in 2024. And, uh, I had a cocktail on the menu that I named. And, uh, I, it was a comic book reference and anytime someone came in, they asked about, I was like, well, if you can guess, if you can figure out what this reference is, I will, I will pay for your cocktail. And, uh, 'cause I would've been very happy if someone figured it out and was like, here, I'll give you the 15 bucks for the cocktail. Like, I don't care. And so, um. No one ever did. And so, um, oh, za, that's fabulous. It's, but it's fun because it makes a game out of it too. You know, some clients for like, oh dude, I can do this. Oh yeah. So, but it's fun. And so with the na stuff, the cool thing is it, it kind of requires a different kind of thinking Yep. As far as like how to add different elements to the cocktail because you can't, like a spirit carries ethanol, ethanol, uh, provides texture and body to a cocktail. And without that you kind of have to figure out other ways to accomplish that if that's where, if that's what you're going for. And so it has, uh, expanded my horizon and required me to like, learn a lot of new things. That's so cool. And it's interesting that it informs the alcohol drinks as well as the. Out drinks without the alcohol that the way, um, what you're quote unquote missing or what's being removed from the cocktail, you know, you might want to compensate for in the non-alcoholic version of whatever you're doing. I didn't think about how it would reform, it would inform rec reciprocally. Mm-hmm. You know, the alcoholic to the non-alcoholic. But that makes sense in a way because there, there, I'm imagining though that there are some comparisons. Like there's some beverages that you try to duplicate a, a little bit in a non-alcoholic variety, but boy, especially when you start talking about like going through your spice cabinet and playing with what's in your kitchen. Mm-hmm. Whether you're using spirits or not, that's really fun. That opens up a whole universe. Like, you know, it makes me think like, have you ever used something like, um, anchovy oil or anything in a beverage? Not in, not anchovy oil. I've used other oils, other fish oils. Mm-hmm. I've used, I, where I, but I think we bought fish oil, really? Um, and I used a little bit of that because I was listening to a podcast, this guy talking about savory cocktails who runs a couple bars in New York. And one thing he talked about was fish oil. And I was like, I, I've never ever thought to use that. That is really interesting. And now that I think about it, it sounds disgusting on the face of it, but I remember making, for example, a marinade. Oh my God. And it was like, as you were saying, like last year, just a couple months ago, um, last fall. And you know, I've, I've eaten anchovies for most of my adult life, so I'm not that new to the world of. You know, unusual flavors, but it was this, um, marinade or sauce, whatever you wanna call it, that had, um, blistered tomatoes that I had spiced and put in olive oil and, you know, roasted until they were almost black. And then, you know, I, um, uh, immersion B blended it, so it was nice and smooth and it had, and then Dijon and olive oil and some anchovies and anchovy oil. But I, you wouldn't even necessarily need to use the, um, anchovy itself. But at any rate, I can't remember what the sauce, it was literally drinkable. It was so good. And I have, I mean, I'm not the first I'm sure to use blistered tomatoes and Dijon and anchovy, I mean, yeah, anchovy. But, you know, thinking about, you know, how. One. Like, and what made me think of that was Bloody Mary. Okay. It's sort of, in some ways in that Bloody Mary family. So when you come up with a non-alcoholic equivalent, are you gonna, how are you gonna stay with it? And how are you gonna depart from it? And how would the departure, the non-alcoholic version, inform future, uh, bloody Mary's? Like for example, if you want depth the ami in the non-alcoholic version by using some anchovy oil, how would that go in a regular, um, or, 'cause they use also, what is it called when you have a, a Bloody Mary and they use clamato juice? Have you ever used that? Have you ever Oh, I have not. Oh my God. Excuse me. It's so good. And you use clam juice and add it to the, um, tomato juice. And then there's some products that incorporate the both, like you can buy 'em together, but I'm sure it has all kinds of shit in it that you don't want to have. Oh. But at any rate. Mutually, mutually, not reciprocally, mutually informative is alcoholic to non-alcoholic versions of the same thing. So now I'm gonna go play with blistered tomatoes. And honestly, like I know I mentioned that I'm using, I've used non-alcoholic spirits in these cocktails, but like, you don't have to, right? Like, you don't. Um, because if you look at like, what's in those non-alcoholic spirits, like, it's essentially whatever base, uh, you know, sometimes it's vinegar or some, some use coffee, some tea, I bet Chinese tea, like, and then the spices or herbs or whatever they're using to, um, that they're macerating in that base. A lot of that stuff we usually have around, uh, I mean we might not have like Mexican cinnamon, but like probably have cinnamon. Yeah. And so, um, and so. Like you can have, um, you know, have a base like coffee or tea or, you know, bitterness thing or whatever you want to use, and then kind of build on top of that and like it, that's what kind of makes this fun. Yes, yes. And so, yay to fun. Yeah. Okay, so I have, I have a question. Two questions. Two questions to round it out. Okay. Question number one is I do not like vodka. I just, I, I find it useless. I find it entirely just like, why bother? And that's why I am a gin fan, right? Because vodka is essentially like flavor. I mean, gin is essentially flavored vodka, right? Essentially in a sense. Yeah. Kind of. At least that's how we make it down here. Start with ever clear and add something good to it. Um, actually that is actually how we make gen. In this neighborhood, but that's another conversation. Um, what is your argument and what is your best offering for someone who thinks vodka is a waste of time? Hmm. Like, 'cause I'm sure I should be tasting something of vodka. Let's start with that. Is there a, like eons ago people talked about potato vodka. Mm-hmm. Is that can really, can you tell the difference in flavor? Yes, you can in some. Okay. Uh, I won't say across the board because I, I have encountered people in different, in various bars. I've, I've worked at, um, that they swear by X vodka compared to y vodka. Okay. And, uh, there was an experiment I did, again, reading people won't work with everyone, but, um, where I gave them. Three different samples of a sample, three different vodkas. And it was like, if you can pick out the one that you like, say you love, you love, or that you like out of this bunch, then, um, like I'll, I'll make you whatever you want. Like I'll, I'll make you a cocktail, I'll make you a shot wherever you and, um, hopefully none of my managers listening to this. Um, but there were a lot of times where like they couldn't do it. Yeah. And, and so, but, and so that at the time that was kind of my like, yeah, all it's vodka, it all tastes the same. Like you can't tell, you fucking can't tell a difference. Right, exactly. And so, um, over time I've, I've come to like have a little more of a respect for vodka. Okay. Um, now. For one, it can be made out of literally anything. There are really, there are like no stipulations to what you can make vodka out of. You could I did not know that. That, yes. Okay. Now I haven't seen any of that go like crazy. That actually encourages me though, because it means that if you're making it out of, you know, something like cellulosic stock in one version or potato, you know, starch Right. In another, then granted that's gonna have a different flavor. Yeah. And so, but um, so I've, I've evolved over, over my time and I have a little bit more respect for it. Uh, I don't drink a ton of vodka cocktails. Uh, if there's a, I will try some here and there. Um, but I don't really drink a ton myself. I don't really have many bottles of vodka at home. Yeah. Um. I don't know why I keep it, because I make penny olive vodka occasionally. Okay. And that's pretty much all I use it for. And, and the, and I'm trying to figure out what in the vodka remains in the, in the sauce, you know, it's sort of because you cook out the alcohol. Mm-hmm. So I'm, maybe I just need to like start doing like, taste tests. I will say, one thing I will say where vodka becomes very useful, at least as far as cocktails go, is, um, so I made a, one of my a cocktails uses a, like a strawberry basil, um, flavor. And I wanted to make sure like the strawberry basil was like, not necessarily like front and center like it was singing solo, but like. You know, standing just in front of the choir. Yeah. And, uh, you know, it was the first thing you could pick out. Yeah. When you took a sip, a low, a lower sugared, lower sweetened syrup out of it. 'cause strawberries were already kind of sweet enough. And, uh, and so with all the, the gamut of different types of sugars that you can use, many of them come very different profiles to them. Yeah. Some are more rich, some are more light, some are just more pungent sweet than others. And, uh, and I just used plain white sugar. Um, because even though I, I prefer using like demara or even like, in some cases I use like molasses and things like that. Um, but I just went for a plain white sugar because it would allow. The strawberry basil flavor to stand out a bit more on its own. On its own. Yeah. And so, so bringing that back around, like if I were to make an alcoholic version of that cocktail, I would probably use vodka, uh, so it could stand out. So it could stand out a bit more. Oh, okay. Yeah. Or if, I mean, I am a more of a gen person myself, and so I would also probably make a gen version of it. Oh my god, yes. For myself. Um, and if I were to do that, it would be a, uh, a more toned down gen gin, like a more Western American gin, um, to where, to where it's not like super, um, high in juniper. But I, I would definitely use a vodka to make the case of like letting that flavor stand out. Yeah. Um, okay. I can absolutely see the wisdom in that. Yeah. Okay. But I still do need to, to try different types of vodka because I'm, I'm not convinced, but I'm, I'm seeing the use of it. It's not useless. Okay. Yes. Okay. So then the other question I wanted to ask is one that I ask, I think on at the end of every show, although I didn't last time, but that's okay. Um, what do I want for dinner? Whew. I know it's always a bitch of a question. Conversation leading up to that. Where's Margie? And Margie was the one, by the way, who you, who makes the best penal vodka? See, I was listening to that episode with her and I, for one, hopefully, I hope she listens to this because I want her to know I appreciate how many times she says slay. Uh, and two, uh, I listened to y'all talk about, uh, the things that y'all like to make. And if I remember correctly with her. Uh, it was more, more along the sweets. Yeah, she does side think does, she was making quite a lot of, and so, um, Margie, if you're listening, we haven't met yet, but I'm here for it. Yeah. And Margie, if you're listening, I have a bottle of spirits, non-alcoholic, uh, beverage that's waiting in the fridge for you. You need to get your ass over here and, and taste test. I should have had mer you over and you could have taste tested it with, with jj, the, the, the creator of this beverage. So, okay. Yeah. You're, you're pawning off the question, aren't you? You're like, call Margie, see what she says. And I, what are you gonna have when you go home and have dinner? So, and that's a great question because when I left the house, the last thing I said to my, before I walk out, before I walked out the door was like, should I go to the store on my way home and pick up some stuff? Um. And of course she was like, uh, sure. Like if you're gonna cook. Yeah, sure. So, um, you know, we are very simple people when it comes to dinner. Um, we have our, like, reg quote unquote regulars, uh, as far as dishes that we will make. And then there's times where we are just straight up lazy and don't want to cook anything, uh, which happens a lot. And so, um, and then because of kids, we always have like our, our kids, like if they could eat one thing forever, it would be pizza. And so we always have stuff to make pizza or like frozen, man, this is, uh, oh, but pizza. That's a good, that's a good backup. Um, you know, like, 'cause these days you can get pretty good frozen pizza. You can, um, there was a. Probably when we were the best at making food on our own was, um, probably two years ago. And we would make like, um, we would buy like non As like, oh, yum. The, as the basin kind of make our own, like personal pieces, flatbread kind of things. Yeah. Oh my God, that sounds good. You know, buy, you know, buy a sauce and buy like, and just kind of do everything ourselves. Um, make it how we wanted to make it. And I actually, now that I'm saying this out loud, like I kind of want to go back to that. Um, yeah. And you know what's nice about that too is Dusty likes crispy pizza. Mm-hmm. And you could, you could cook it so that the non gets nice and crisp. Absolutely. Or you could cook it so it stays a little soft. And we have like, we have a pizza stone that was giving to us as a wedding gifts. Ooh. And so we use that good wedding gift all the time. And so, um, so yeah man. Okay. This is helpful for me now flat. Um, but that's okay. What's your favorite topping on a non or flatbread pizza topping's, plural, man. Um, so I'm a white pizza gal. Okay. So mine would probably be like, if I have pesto, which I do, 'cause I always have pesto in the fridge, I'd, um, drizzle some pesto and some really fruity olive oil and some shrimp. Interesting. And maybe some cheese, like something like a fontina or something where you don't need much. Just a little bit. Interesting. And if I'm feeling really fancy, maybe some arugula on top of that. That's fancy. That is fancy. That's more fancy than I keep it. It looks fancy. Dusty fucking hates arugula. He hates it. It just offends him. I'm not convinced he can taste it. It just offends him. We uh, we had a, um, at house we were renting before this house that we bought, we had a little mock garden. Ooh. Um, we had some herbs growing and so like I had like mint and basil and cilantro and things like that. And so that was nice 'cause anytime we did make a little personal pizza, I would just go back there, pull off some basil. Yes. And just like pop that on on top. Uh, or we a pasta, just pop it in there. And um, and so that was back when we were way more, well, when you didn't have three children under the age of six, maybe. That's fair. Uh, that's fair. There's that, there's that. But uh, honestly, I'm kind of feeling like, um, I'm honestly almost feeling like a. Like taco or fajita. Oh my God. Okay. Um, yeah, I can live with that. That's, that's kind of what I'm feeling. Okay. Oh, I'm digging that, man. Now I'm hungry. Okay. Thank you. Mission accomplished and, and might pair that with a, uh, uh, a nice cocktail. Um, maybe something that's like tequila or mezcal based and Ooh, something like sank bright and citrusy to, to compliment the, yeah, to compliment the, the, now do you put fajitas, do you put cheese in your fajitas or is it just like veggies and meat? I'll sometimes put a little bit, my wife doesn't, 'cause she's lactose intolerant. Oh, okay. Um, but I'll, I'll sometimes put a little bit, but it's mainly whatever meat we choose and veggies, onions, and, and then a citrusy. Tequila thing. Okay. Yeah. Now I'm hungry. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, jj. Absolutely. Thank you. It's fun. I appreciate you. Thank you so much. And thank you all for joining. This has been an enormous amount of fun. It was a long conversation, and I'm so excited to have the next one. But in the meantime, enjoy your time around the table.