SPEAKER_04 0:00

This episode is sponsored by Broad and Taylor, makers of the new countertop dough sheeter built to elevate every bake ahead. No, the best croissants are the ones you make at home. No. Not true. From King Arthur Baking Company, this is Things Bakers Know. I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's editor director.

SPEAKER_05 0:20

And I'm Jessica Batalana, King Arthur's staff editor, and today we are devoting the entire episode to flaky, buttery croissant.

SPEAKER_04 0:34

Bonjour. In Ohio, we called them croissants.

SPEAKER_05 0:42

Or crescent rolls.

SPEAKER_04 0:43

Actually, that was more across the river in Kentucky. Crescent cres crescents.

SPEAKER_05 0:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:47

But uh but yeah, I'm here to talk about it.

SPEAKER_05 0:50

Um and I'm going to offer a very, very early just opinion. I like just to get them in now at the top of the show. So people don't have to wait.

SPEAKER_06 0:58

Yes, right.

SPEAKER_05 0:59

Uh and tell you that I think the best croissants are the ones that you can't eat without like destroying your outfit.

unknown 1:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:08

You know, like where they're shatteringly crisp, lots of flaky shards of pastry, and you're like, you get them all over your shirt, all over your pants.

SPEAKER_04 1:15

The best croissants are the ones you make at home. No. Not true. But we are talking about baking them at home. Um for anybody who does not know, though, let's just back up. And I I don't think I think there are very few people who don't know what a croissant is. But for those who don't know, croissants are laminated pastry. We've talked about lamination a lot because we're a baking podcast. We're going to talk about it again. I'm going to give you the top line, which is that uh a laminated dough is when you take a relatively lean dough, meaning a dough that doesn't have a lot of fat in it, can have some, and you layer that with pure fat with butter. And you roll it out, you do a series of folds, roll again, shape, fold, trim, roll, fold, roll, lay down, take it out. You have a dough that's layered with butter, and it bakes up into a very crispy thing because the butter melts, it lets off steam, the steam creates flakes. Uh that's the top line. And croissant is probably the most famous and maybe the most delicious version of the line. I think so. Pastry.

SPEAKER_05 2:25

So you're making essentially a yeasted puff pastry.

SPEAKER_04 2:29

That's the I'm glad you said that. That's the main difference, right? Yeah. That uh croissant is yeasted. Yeah, it has a little bit of yeast in it.

SPEAKER_05 2:35

Uh I mean there are sourdough versions, but I consider a sourdough croissant you don't see them as much. The majority of the croissants you're gonna find in bakeries are yeasted.

SPEAKER_04 2:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:47

I'm not gonna say better or worse. I'm just gonna say more common.

SPEAKER_04 2:50

Sure. Yeah. Because I will run. I won't I'll knock people down on the street to run to a sourdough croissant. Will you? Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, I've oh yeah. Cause lots of mayhem running towards sourdough croissants.

SPEAKER_05 3:00

Have you had a good one in New York City? Probably. Yeah.

unknown 3:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 3:05

I didn't mean to put you on the spot.

SPEAKER_04 3:07

Here's the thing: croissants, it seems like it should be something simple to talk about. It's really not. No. Because things have changed. Yeah. And what we think of as uh ideal croissant now, and you seem to have some very strong opinions about that. So I want to dig into that. But what you may be thinking of as the ideal croissant may not have been the ideal croissant 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_05 3:29

I think that's true.

SPEAKER_04 3:30

And we've talked about this with so many things. I feel like we've talked about this with childhood chip cookies, sourdough bread for one thing. We're gonna be talking about that.

SPEAKER_05 3:38

We talked about with focaccia, like this the evolution over time of what is like sort of in vogue.

SPEAKER_04 3:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:44

Just gonna use as many French words as I can in this episode.

SPEAKER_04 3:46

You know, I'm so sick of change. Like, why shouldn't anything stay the same? It's a croissant.

SPEAKER_05 3:50

I mean, and the you're right. Because when you know, when I was growing up and I the first croissants I had were at like chains, like au bonpin, another series of French words. And they were, you know, they weren't as flaky. They were like a little doughier. Bready. Breadier, a little breadier. And now I think the style is is you know, these sort of very flaky with like that. We've talked a lot about this internally here at King Right, this honeycomb structure. Yes. It one of the things about croissants is like it's the great trick of the ages, right? That it is loaded with butter. It's literally like more, I think, more butter by you know, ratio than anything else. And yet, why so light? How so flaky? It's like it's kind of miraculous. Like sometimes, you know, you're eating a croissant and you know it's pure butter, but it just is like dissolving on your tongue.

SPEAKER_04 4:46

I think that really is the difference between croissant dough and you know, a classic puff pastry, like you said. That yeast is really doing a lot of work, right? I mean, it's creating an airy structure.

SPEAKER_05 4:55

And people want to, you know, they want to make croissants at home. We know this because like the class that we teach in laminated doughs at our baking school is far and away one of the most popular classes. And we have Elizabeth, the instructor, coming on the podcast later to talk about that class and and making croissants at home. So people really want to try and like crack the code at home. Yes, not me. Because they are a little fiddly. Okay. I mean, that's an understatement of the century. They're fiddly to make.

SPEAKER_06 5:28

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:29

And they're fiddly to make because, you know, you need to control the temperature of the butter in the dough. Then you need to control the temperature when the dough is proofing, then you need to control the temperature when you're baking. And there's just, you know, in a home kitchen, there's so many variables that are harder to control and dial in with a precision that I think something like a croissant requires. But people want to try.

SPEAKER_04 5:51

People want to try.

SPEAKER_05 5:52

And we're gonna try and help them.

SPEAKER_04 5:53

Okay. So things change, but some things don't change. So what are the non-negotiables for a good croissant, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_05 5:59

Butter. Well, I mean, I would laugh, but that's true. It's true. Because I think when you get a lot of the supermarket croissants or the take and bake, or even some from, you know, like I would say lesser bakeries, they're made with a combination of butter and, you know, some sort of vegetable shortening. And not only does it affect the texture, but of course the flavor. Like they they are lacking that delicious, like buttery flavor throughout. So I I consider that to be a non-negotiable. Yeah. And that has not changed throughout time. I think you know, the best croissants have always been made with pure butter.

SPEAKER_04 6:33

And you had a really interesting, like a little factoid about that.

SPEAKER_05 6:36

I did.

SPEAKER_04 6:37

About the shape of the croissant.

SPEAKER_05 6:39

Oh, yes, yes. I was reading that um in France, all butter croissants are straight, whereas butter uh croissants that are made with a mixture of butter and a different kind of fat are curved. I don't know if that's universally true, but that is sort of the standard. You know, and in France they control a lot of things, like they have laws about a lot of things related to baked goods, like the cost of baguettes and things like that. So I it's not, I don't think it's a law, but it seems to be the sort of a custom so that at a glance you can be like, imposter, real deal. I mean, how helpful would that be if we had that for other things?

SPEAKER_04 7:14

I love that. It's I think that's so cool. Good croissant also has a strong bake. And I don't necessarily think this is universally uh accepted. I think some people like a sort of paler bake on the croissant.

SPEAKER_05 7:27

I mean, some people like a paler bake on everything. Yes. And those people are wrong.

SPEAKER_04 7:31

You said you said it. Um but I do think that uh a pale croissant is probably a flabby croissant, and you're not getting the maximum flake and uh I want to say crunchy. You never want like a super crunchy croissant, but there's a light crunch, a crispy.

SPEAKER_05 7:48

Yeah, there's a little caramelization happening. Yeah, caramelization.

SPEAKER_04 7:50

So uh for me, oh that's a non-negotiable for me. A strong bake, deep golden brown.

SPEAKER_05 7:57

And now, I mean, I think there are lots of good examples of classic croissant, classic all butter croissant out there. But you know, people can't resist. Bakers can't resist, and consumers or baked goods can't resist like wanting to mess with a classic thing, right? So I think like as frequently as you see an all-butter plain croissant, you see like some crazy innovation happening now.

SPEAKER_04 8:25

Yeah, right. And I think we can maybe take this back to the Cronut. Oh, the Cronut. I don't think it started there, but I think that was like a sort of a lift-off in terms of things you could do. Can you tell people about the Cronut? Just basically deep fry it. Um Yeah, I mean, I would be surprised if people don't know, but Cronut is uh pastry that was developed by Dominique Anzel in New York City at his bakery, which I think is just called Dominique Anzel bakery.

SPEAKER_06 8:54

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:55

Um but I've never had it. I'm sure it's delicious, but it's a deep-fried, it's deep-fried croissant dough that's then filled with you know, pastry cream or you know, he's filled, he fills it seasonally with all sorts of things. And the idea it's a mashup of a croissant and a donut. And a donut, right. And I know I've never had any of it. Have you ever had the real Cronut? No, I've never had a Cronut. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:16

I'm I believe we're two Cronut versions here, like given how much we love baked goods. But I do think that was I mean, I too too. And I do think you're right that the Cronut was like the point at which uh, you know, people were like, hold on, like we can do more with this. And and you started to see, you know, croissants baked in like square pans, you know, or croissant loaves baked in square pans, um, or in the supremes, which are you know, baked in circular molds, so they look like um snails, like all curled up. Right. I mean, and those are so beautiful, like very deeply browned on both sides. Sometimes they're like filled, um, sometimes they're dipped.

SPEAKER_04 9:56

They're dipped and they're topped with little candies or nuts. Those are sold at Lafayette um in New York City. And you know, and the croissant is often um used as a what I would call a scarcity bake. You know, and I don't know if that's the term. Is that the term?

SPEAKER_05 10:11

You know, in 2023, there was a uh article in the Wall Street Journal um about something called the croissant theory. Oh, yes. Yeah. Tell us about that. So the croissant theory is this, you know, it's a business strategy, right? Like popularized by bakeries. And basically it is that scarcity. You know, you sort of create the special thing to drive demand, to build hype, to get people in line, and to sort of like increase, I think, like, you know, sort of perceived value of the thing.

SPEAKER_04 10:42

Yeah. And you don't make very many of them. So that there's so that there's always sort of uh uh fervor for it.

SPEAKER_05 10:48

Yeah, it's hard to get. And like you, you know, and then you get your customers to post about it on social media. So it's like you're intentionally just building the buzz.

SPEAKER_04 10:56

Yeah. And I don't think you could do that with every baked good. I don't even do that with a loaf of bread. I mean, the croissant is something special. It really captures something for people. It always feels a little special, I think. I don't think anybody, I mean, in America is eating croissants every single day of their life. It's always a special occasion thing, I think, for people. So it makes sense to me that that's often what the scarcity bake is. Yeah. Um, why the theory was named after croissants.

SPEAKER_05 11:24

Yeah, I would be curious to see. You know, I was in I was in France last November, and we certainly ate a lot of pastries, but I don't know that I saw, I mean, I'm sure they exist, but I didn't see as many like wild flavored croissants there as I see in American bakeries. Like now I feel like the fillings are like all over, you know, it's no longer just like penot chocolat, ham and cheese plain. It's like, you know, whatever. It's like Yuzu chamomile. It's like malted milk chocolate fill. Like there's just like so much innovation happening, both in the form and in the flavor. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:59

I feel like Super Moon in Manhattan is doing a lot of work with flavors, uh-huh, colors. And, you know, honestly, another place I've never been, but I've heard it's actually really good that it's not just shtick, that the that the quality is there too. But you that's the that's the thing. Like I'm always a little skeptical when I see a croissant that's like rainbow colored. Like this, this looks like a gimmick to me. I mean, yeah. That's the thing. Like, croissants are often used, can go gimmicky really fast. And I'm sure I know a lot of them are truly good. The one at Lafayette was developed by uh a pastry chef named Daniel Skernick, I think. Excellent pastry chef. I mean, like, I mean, true, you know, true pro, and I'm sure it's delicious. But if you want to make them at home yourself, you can do that. You can do it. You can do that with a chocolate, you can make a chocolate croissant at home by yourself if you're up for a little project.

SPEAKER_05 12:51

We gotta get into it. So everyone, roll up your sleeves, wipe the sweat from your brow.

SPEAKER_04 12:56

Right. Because actually, this is not a something that you and I can talk about amongst ourselves because we don't do that.

SPEAKER_05 13:03

I mean, I believe you can, but should you? I don't know. We're gonna we're gonna drill down on that. But we are gonna get some help on the question of can you, how do you from our baking school instructor, Elizabeth Bertha Savage.

SPEAKER_04 13:17

Yes. The how and the why.

SPEAKER_05 13:19

And the why.

SPEAKER_04 13:20

Yeah. Elizabeth is a longtime instructor at our baking school, and she has a really, really good new on-demand class all about lamination, intro to lamination. So she covers croissants. She also covers Danish, which honestly is sort of like where I want to try first. Um, and a few other things. And she's got a very just chill teaching style. Yeah. Really makes you feel like you can do anything. Yeah, I know. Um, so we're gonna talk to her. And at the end of this podcast, end of this interview, you and I. We're gonna head to the kitchen. We're gonna move to make croissants. Elizabeth, thank you so much for being here on Things Bakers Know. I thought we would just start with a probably the biggest question, which is why is it even worth it to make a croissant at home?

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Well, you know, I feel like, and I I often poll the students like, why are you here today? Like, what brings you to King Arthur Baking Company and to this class in particular? And I feel like a lot of students will say, Oh, croissants are so delicious. And they're also cost-driven. So, you know, the average cost of a croissant really is from a nice bakery is anywhere from four to eight dollars. And so that really adds up. And if you want this delicious pastry a couple times a week, there you go. Now you can't afford your coffee.

SPEAKER_04 14:42

So it just a lot of or your mortgage.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

Yeah, exactly. So I mean, I feel like that's usually what it comes down to.

SPEAKER_04 14:51

It's a great point. I wonder if you see this in your students. Uh when I do something like lamination at home, it's truly because I it's fun and it's a project, and and it, and it's uh, it's such a it's a challenge. It's not the type, it's it is as much for me about the process as it is about the end result. Do you find that with your students?

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Yes, definitely. Um, I think it's funny because most of the students that walk through that door, and I can say this for a lot of topics, um laminations, two-thirds of them have never even tried and have no idea what they're walking into. But then you have like that one-third who have tried it and they really have gained a respect to or for the process. Um, and so they're they are there to really understand what they're doing wrong. And then the other students are there because, hey, this sounds fun. I love croissants. I'd like to make them at home. And I mean it can go both ways. So it's definitely worth it to try it at home for sure.

SPEAKER_04 16:03

What are the main differences between making a croissant at home and making a croissant in a professional setting?

unknown 16:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

So, you know, working in a in a professional setting, um, there definitely are a lot of um crutches that that are used. But I would say the primary one that makes it, I would say, easier in a commercial setting is gonna be the proof box. Um, because you have complete, almost complete control over what's happening, the timing. Uh, so you've got the temperature, you've got humidity, and um I mean you can even like get it going the night before, all shaped on the speed rack, in the proof box, have it on cold, and then have it timed so that it plops on to proof when you're still at home, that kind of thing, right? So that's that's probably one of the challenges with at home, like for the home maker, is the proof.

SPEAKER_04 16:59

There are ways to emulate a proof box at home. Which are your favorite ways?

SPEAKER_02 17:06

So, my favorite way, and I talk about this in the on-demand class too, is um using your home oven. Uh, because um obviously it's not turned on to 400 degrees at this point, but um use your home oven and that's where you can place your sheet pan with your croissants. Um because the home oven is sort of a little box, um, it is uh safe from any drafts. And if I have my oven light on, and I don't I only know this because I have an in-story thermometer I can put in the oven, I know I can get that little box up to 72 degrees. So that's a lot warmer than my kitchen. Because in the summer or in the wintertime, my kitchen is like 60, 61 degrees. It's very cold. So use your oven, but like it's a tool. And then I also use um I get some uh hot water, like in a place that on my oven to sort of give it a little bit of humidity because that's actually going to help with the fermentation. Um yeast will be much happier. Um so you know, every 30 minutes, and I set a timer for this too. I'm a little I'm a little obsessive about it, but I set a timer for the for the mug of hot water, and I'll swap that out every 30 minutes. So, and when I know that I'm getting close, I only know that from experience, I'll pull out that sheet pan, put it on my counter, get my oven preheated.

SPEAKER_04 18:36

Nice. So oven light on, yep, a cup of steaming uh hot water that's replaced on a regular basis. Uh you have a great proof box. Um, you mentioned that uh proofing croissants is different from proofing bread. What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_02 18:57

Well, you know, like oftentimes in recipes um with bread, um it'll talk about you know, especially with loaf pan breads, it'll crest an inch above the edge of the pan at least. You know, take your finger, poke it. You know, just make it sure it feels pillowy and soft. And that is true with croissants. They should feel pillowy, marshmallowy. Even when you give like uh that sheet pan a little shake, you know, a time or two, it will just like wobble back and forth. Um, so there's a lot of that that you're looking for. But I feel like students kind of get locked into this. Oh, it has to double in size, and it's gonna expand this way and like this way. And it's really not the case with croissants. Um so I just feel like it's such a um specific shape, too. And uh you have to look for uh slightly different identifiers to say, hey, these are ready. Um so often I also mention try to peel back the layers, like almost with your finger. You can kind of see the layers that you've created by peeling them back. That's also really cool to see. You can see the separation.

SPEAKER_04 20:15

And if you can see the layers clearly, that's a sign that it's well proofed.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

Yes, that is one of the signs for sure. And also that marshmallowy, pillowy um feel to the to the croissant.

SPEAKER_04 20:26

Yes. Um I think there are some bakes. Well, in general, I think that homebakers, a lot of them don't proof enough in general. I think I think we're I think we are a world of chronically underproof proofing bakers. Um but I do feel like there are some bakes where you want to push the proof even farther or even further than than others. Um for example, I I think with Hala, I I try to push myself to push that final proof as far as possible because I know that's gonna give me the best shape and the best structure of my Hala. And it can be hard sometimes because it's a I I don't like to wait. I get impatient. Uh is it are croissants in that camp for you? Do you feel like they benefit from a really just really pushing that proof and trying to get it as uh jiggly and marshmallow y as possible? Or do we really have to pay extra close attention to not overproofing because we'll, you know, uh experience some uh collapsing in the oven.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Yeah, yeah. Um well, there certainly is a fine line. Um so, but yes, I do overall, I do overall really agree that it can benefit from a proof that you're really pushing to its max. Um but I think where people sort of stumble, especially with croissants where you have this layering of butter in between, um a longer proof, or shall I say, like Like a longer or overproofing process can actually get that butter too soft. Especially when you're not in an environment, or these are not proofing in an environment that's terribly controlled with temperature. And then if you get the butter too soft by giving it that longer proof, um, what can happen in the oven then is that the butter will can has a tendency to leak. And then you're gonna see pools of butter on your sheet pan. And you're gonna wonder why. And then the sort of the texture of the overall product is going to be somewhat denser, somewhat chewier, a very lackluster, you know, oven spring. You know, it's just gonna like not be great. And so you have to be careful. And I think you know, for students who are new to this, I would just look for those identifiers that I described and keep it at that, especially when you don't have complete control over where these things are proofing. Because overproofing is not great, but also underproofing is equally not great.

SPEAKER_04 23:07

Yeah, okay. So it is not good advice to to say just push it, just push it, push it, push it. Yeah, we gotta pay attention.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

I think with experience, yes. Within time, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:18

Yeah. Okay. Um this has all been wonderful, Elizabeth, but to close out, just want to make sure that we're giving giving everybody uh your top tips. What is what is the number one piece of encouragement you give to students when they're making croissants at home?

SPEAKER_02 23:38

Um trust the process because it is a process, and don't be afraid to make mistakes because you're gonna learn from those mistakes. I've learned from them, we've all learned from them. So give yourself a pat on the back just for trying.

SPEAKER_04 23:59

I love that. Like so much baking advice, it's just life advice, too, right? So I really appreciate that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:05

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 24:07

Well, thank you so much, Elizabeth, for coming on the show and demystifying croissants for us. Uh, again, folks can check you out live in person at the Vermont Baking School and also in our on-demand classes, which are available at kingarthurbaking.com.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Yeah, you're welcome. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_04 24:25

This episode is brought to you by Broad and Taylor. Achieving even and consistent layers has always been one of the trickier parts of laminated dough, but the Broad and Taylor countertop dough sheeter makes it nearly foolproof.

SPEAKER_05 24:37

The amazing thing about this dough sheeter is that they have taken a professional piece of equipment and sized it for a home kitchen. So it's the right scale. It's compact enough to fit on your countertop, but it fulfills the mission of a professional dough sheeter, giving you like those beautiful layers of butter and dough. And then when you're done using it, it's easy to break down and store. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:01

When I retire and become a cottage bakery only doing croissants out of my little Manhattan apartment, I'm gonna use this dough sheeter. Every fold, every layer, just right. Find the countertop dough sheeter at broadentailor.com. This episode is brought to you by Supernatural. Supernatural makes sprinkles, food colors, and flavors that are completely colored by plants, fully traceable, and totally free from anything artificial or synthetic.

SPEAKER_05 25:31

And it's just a proven fact. It is just a proven fact that sprinkles make everything more fun. So you can add them to your pancake batter, you can sprinkle them on your ice cream, and of course, you can use them to top a frosted cake. You can find supernatural sprinkles, food colors, flavors, and more at KingArthurbaking.com, and the full line is available at supernaturalkitchen.com. This episode is brought to you by our on-demand baking school classes. Did you know that we have on-demand classes that you can take anywhere, anytime, as many times as you like, which is very handy if, like me, you don't always get things the first time.

SPEAKER_04 26:11

I have been that person like shaping the bagels, too.

SPEAKER_05 26:14

Rewind, rewatch. And if this episode has inspired you to make croissants at home, I mean, God bless you, good luck. But we have two classes that can help. One taught by our baker, Wilhelm Wanders, all about croissants, and a second class that's our intro to lamination class taught by today's guest, Elizabeth Bertha Savage. She'll teach you to make croissants, but also other laminated pastries like Danish's. You can find all of our on-demand classes at kingarthurbaking.com slash baking dash school. It's time for our next segment, Ask the Bakers. For Ask the Bakers, we want to hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com slash podcast to record a voice message, and we may end up using your question on the show. That's KingArthurbaking.com forward slash podcast.

SPEAKER_04 27:02

And of course, if you have a question that simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to the Baker's Hotline via phone, email, or chat. Just call us at 855-371-2253. That's 2253 as in bake, or go to KingArthurbaking.com slash bakers dash hotline. That's bakers dash hotline.

SPEAKER_05 27:24

Let's hear our first question. I hope we can answer this question.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Hi, so let's talk flour. I understand about the protein content for gluten formation, but I don't really understand about ash. When you look at and when you look at the French flowers, they talk about T45, T55, and their ash content. And the reason I ask is because we see a lot of components of the water recipes that talk about um protein content and then the French ones talk about ash percentage. And so I'm not quite sure how to define what the best flour is for whether I can just use red flour, whether I should use this T45 stuff. So you can look me up with an answer.

SPEAKER_05 28:13

This is a next level question. This is a challenging question. So the good news for this baker is that they don't really need to think about ash content if they don't want to, because at King Arthur, with our milling partners, we've already thought about it. That's not a very satisfying answer, though. I realize. So we're gonna get we're gonna get into it a little bit. So when we talk about ash content, you know, we each flower has its own specifications for the ash content. But the it invites this bigger question of like what is ash content when we're talking about ash content. It's like I was hoping to get off easy. Um and I'm gonna give the nickel version, which is, you know, when you take, and this is, you know, in a controlled environment, you take flour, you burn the flour, what's left behind is the ash content, and that is represented as a percentage of the total amount of flour. And that's the minerals left in a flour. So the more refined the flour, the less ash content. So white flour, for example, is like 0.55% ash content. And in France, that would be called like a T55 flour. Whereas something like a whole wheat flour, because you know, there's more to burn, there's more endosperm, that's going to be, you know, a higher percentage of ash after this burn. So maybe like 1.5%, something like that. So that's what we're talking about when we talk about ash content. In France, they usually spec T45, what they call T45 or T55 flower. So 0.45% ash or 0.55% ash content flowers. Here in the States, and when we're talking about the King Arthur flowers, you know, a 0.55 flower is going to be our all-purpose flower. So the AP flower will give you great, I mean, will it give you great results? It will give you the closest to sort of a French flower that we have access to here.

SPEAKER_04 30:08

You do want some strength in your dough because it is, you know, it is rising. You do need gluten in you, you do need the proteins in the dough to capture the uh carbon dioxide that the yeast is. Right.

SPEAKER_05 30:21

Which is why you wouldn't use like a cake flour or like a pastry flour. You know, you do need something that has a bit of strength in it. But you don't want to go the other way. Exactly. You don't want to make it because you don't want them to be tough. Like you want them to remain light.

SPEAKER_06 30:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:33

Um, so that is, I think that, I mean, I hope that answers the question. But um, it's, I mean, I think ash is content is something that professional bakers think about a lot. I know our milling partners think about a lot. Um, and we have specifications for that. But for a home baker, I think it's not, you know, I don't think it's hugely important information to know. Um, and that's why we don't include it on all the bags of our flour.

SPEAKER_04 30:58

So the bottom line for this caller is use an all-purpose flour, or if you are in France, a T55?

SPEAKER_05 31:06

T55 or T45, I think are the standard flowers for croissants there. Um, and and you know, I there are there is such a thing as a whole week croissant. That's all I'll say about that. That's another episode. Um so I hope that's helpful. But let's um let's hear our next question.

SPEAKER_03 31:26

Hey King Arthur, this is Julia in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. And I was gifted a home feeder. I love the idea of it, but it takes up so much space. Is it worth it to keep it when I already have rolling pins? Would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

SPEAKER_04 31:44

Uh I like the style of this uh of this baker calling. Uh this baker is a serious one. You know, first of all, let's just talk about what a sheeter is. Yeah. Uh a sheeter is a piece of machinery commonly, most commonly found in professional bakeries that are doing a lot of lamination. They look like um, they look like baggage carousels. They do, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:08

Exactly right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:09

You send, and what happens is you send your dough and your uh butter block through these sheeters and they uh make it thinner and thinner. It's almost like a like a pasta machine.

SPEAKER_05 32:23

Yeah, so it's like a conveyor belt with rollers. So it like you roll it one way, and then you might fold it manually on the other end and turn it, and then you roll it back through the rollers. It is an automated way to do what we would do with a rolling pin.

SPEAKER_04 32:37

Right. And it makes it laminates very consistently and very quickly, and which is good because you know, one of the hard things about making croissants at home, which we've talked about in this episode a lot, is controlling the butter temperature. And the quicker you can do it, the more your butter will stay the same temperature. Sure.

SPEAKER_05 32:54

Um so there was a home version of this piece of equipment called a shear that was recently, fairly recently brought to market.

SPEAKER_04 33:01

Yeah, I think it's brought and tailored, does it and we and we love broaden tailor products. We talk about their home proofer a bunch, and they there's a uh a bread steel, uh bread cup, what are they? They have a bread steel and then a cover for it to make um you know, so that you can bake loaves in uh gas oven. So yeah, big fan of their products. Um I uh think a sheeter is very cool. The idea of having a sheeter at home, I love that idea. I've never made a croissant in my life, but I love that idea. Um I think if you're going to do it, you should probably make croissants without a sheeter. I'm gonna say a dozen times. Yeah. Know that you really love making croissants at home before you invest in a sheeter.

SPEAKER_05 33:43

I think if you were one of the people out there that's like has a cottage bakery business, you know, and you wanted to expand into laminated pastries, like that might be. Or, you know, if you're just a gearhead and you want to like tink around with something, like I think it would be fun. I've never used one. I can't really justify the space, I don't think, for the amount of times I make croissants at home I'm holding up a zero. Um, but I think they are interesting. And I mean, I also just think what's cool about it is that it's sort of you see this trend toward things that were once like just the purview of professional baker, like equipment tool, you know, now making their way into home kitchens. And that's like that's fun. It's interesting to see. This may not be the one that I pick up, but I think it's cool to see that they're now like looking toward very ambitious home bakers when they're thinking about what tools and products to bring to market.

SPEAKER_04 34:35

So do it the hard way first and then take the easy way out with the sheeting.

SPEAKER_05 34:39

Exactly. Um, let's uh let's hear our next question.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

What's the best butter to make croissants? Should I use European or American butter?

SPEAKER_05 34:50

Well, we were talking about this and you were unequivocal.

SPEAKER_04 34:54

Yes. I think in this situation, European butter is the go-to. I mean, that's our recommendation. Yes, European style butter. And the reason why is because European butter, well, it has more butter fat in it. It has less water, more butter fat than American style butter. American style comes in around 80, European style comes in at least 82, 83, 80, 45, you know, in that range. Yeah. Um, and what that extra butter fat does is helps the butter remain pliable when you're doing all your rolling and stacking and folding and rolling again and, you know, I mean, you do want ideally a butter that can like bend. Yeah. And that's the that's the ultimate state. Yeah. Um and it's easier to get that with European butter.

SPEAKER_05 35:41

Yeah. And you don't know, I mean, now there are true European-made butters available in the States, you know, Plugre being one brand. But there's also lots of domestically made European, I'm putting it in quotes here, European style butter that have that higher butterfat percentage. Here at the King Arthur um kitchens, we use the Cabot, which is a Vermont, you know, butter company, and theirs comes in at about 82% butterfly. But, you know, there's also one from Vermont Creamery. Like there are quite a few domestic manufacturers. So you can just look for something that says European style on it. Um, and then, you know, it should boast about the butterfat percentage. So more butter, more better is right. I mean, is our next t-shirt is my new bumper sticker.

SPEAKER_04 36:25

All right, let's see what else Jessica has to say. Every episode, we'd love to check in with Jessica to hear, but wildly surprising and full-throated opinions are in her head. A segment we lovingly call Jess Opinions. And Jessica, you have a croissant? Jess Opinion. Of course I do. Of course I do. I think you've given a few already.

SPEAKER_05 36:42

Yeah, I mean, as always, I can't limit it to just one. But we were talking at the top of the show about flavored, you know, how like now croissants are they're shaped differently. They have different flavors. Yeah, evolution, yeah. And I'm in support of evolution to a degree.

SPEAKER_04 37:01

You believe it? Yeah, I believe in evolution.

SPEAKER_05 37:03

Um but you know what is a a crime against humanity is the croissant that is stuffed and then also topped with chocolate chip cookie dough. Why? Why? Okay, yes. So in case it's delicious. Yes. Chocolate chip cookie dough, delicious. They don't need to be combined.

SPEAKER_04 37:27

Okay. For people who may have missed this trend on social media. These were this was a trend where people were taking it seemed like store-bought croissants.

SPEAKER_05 37:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 37:38

And um maybe store-bought cookie dough, yes, splitting open the baked croissant, putting raw cookie dough in Oh god, I'm getting a stomachache just thinking about it. And then baking it.

SPEAKER_05 37:50

No, then closing the croissant and then sometimes putting more cookie dough on top.

SPEAKER_04 37:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 37:55

And then baking.

SPEAKER_04 37:56

And then baking it, yes.

SPEAKER_05 37:57

So what you got was like a sort of a baked chocolate chip cookie on top of a croissant and inside unbaked but hot, like melted cookie dough.

SPEAKER_04 38:08

Unbaked?

SPEAKER_05 38:09

I mean, it was baked, but like soft bake, right? Like and I will say, you say at home. It wasn't just at home, David. Oh, really? Professionals were doing this. Professionals are doing this out in the world. Yeah. Okay. I'm not gonna name names, but I've seen it.

SPEAKER_04 38:24

You're not gonna name names. But you are gonna be uh, you know, writing some tickets. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 38:29

I'm gonna be writing some tickets. Uh I just think you know, there's sometimes like it just goes too far. These trends go too far. And we all know like people love chocolate chip cookies. We all know that croissants are delicious, and that's fine. Like, just they don't need to be. I will say, you know, there it's not like the the twice-baked croissant does not have a precedent. It just has like a much classier.

SPEAKER_04 38:56

There there is a precedent for this, which of course is the almond croissant. Yes. Which I don't think people know, which I think that that's worth talking about. I don't think people know that the classic almond croissant is a day-old croissant that's been split and you know. Soaked usually with some yeah, soaked with some cymbal syrup to you know, revive it and then fill it with some French pan.

SPEAKER_06 39:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:16

Um in the same style, like in the middle, and then some on top, sometimes, and then re-baked. So and that's the way it's supposed to be. Like sometimes people and you know, I think some bakers now make fresh almond croissants. That's not right.

SPEAKER_05 39:29

No, no. I mean, I think you want like actually the structure of a day old. Like you want it to kind of and think it, you know, that you're kind of handling those a little more roughly. That's fine. I like an almond croissant.

SPEAKER_04 39:38

Yeah. So you so the twice-baked croissant is not your own.

SPEAKER_05 39:40

No, I don't have an issue with the twice-baked croissant.

SPEAKER_04 39:42

It's the cookie dough.

SPEAKER_05 39:43

Yeah, just leave it alone. So that's what I got for you this week.

SPEAKER_04 39:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:46

Now, what do you have for me this week? What are you baking this week?

SPEAKER_04 39:50

Um, I don't think I'm ready to dive into croissants yet. Not this week, but I'm gonna do something that's sort of vaguely in the shape, which is uh shiropan or the salt bread.

SPEAKER_05 40:00

Oh, yeah. Talk about trends.

SPEAKER_04 40:02

Yeah, this was trendy a couple months ago. Uh, we got Kat Lou, a baker, to do a recipe for us. Um, this is a bread that is shaped vaguely. It's like a kind of a crescent shape, so it's vaguely croissant-ish. And uh the dough is shaped around a nub of butter so that when it bakes, you have this kind of hole in the middle, but it's also like this buttery delicious thing. It's very crispy on the bottom. Yeah. So it seems really fun. I haven't baked it yet. So I want to think about it.

SPEAKER_05 40:34

It's like a good entry-level way to roll dough around butter and get something delicious. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:38

And I could tell people, yeah, this is a croissant. What do you mean?

unknown 40:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:41

Exactly. No, I didn't no, I make croissants. Here it is.

SPEAKER_05 40:45

Well, you know what? I I I this is I maybe I've talked about this before because it really is something that we make all the time. But the book of pizza came out just about a month ago. A month ago, yeah. Um, so we make the weeknight Detroit pizza all the time now. Um, and I love it because pan pizza feeds more people, really like pretty low stakes. I don't have to like be, you know, shuttling rounds of pizza dough off and off, you know, in and out of the oven.

SPEAKER_04 41:14

Totally.

SPEAKER_05 41:15

Um, and it's, you know, we have some suggestions in the book for how to top it, but I find you can be pretty freewheeling with that dough and still get a great pizza. So are you always doing cheese first on that dough? I always do cheese first. And I do cheese right up to the edge of the pan. And I did invest in one of the Lloyd Detroit pans, which are um, you know, the anodized aluminum, dark anodized aluminum, which makes a huge difference. Like you really get a truly crisp crust and that like freako edge. And then, you know, like once you get the cheese down, like everything else is gravy. Like you can do red sauce, which is my kid's preference. But I also do there's a the recipe in the book for, you know, you and I are at odds with this ingredient. I know what you're gonna say. Um broccoli rob, one of my top ingredients, and it's black olives and broccoli rob uh and cheese, and that's really good. And um, and it's just one of many things you can do with that dough. So that one is truly like and you can make it in an afternoon. Like you can think about 3 p.m.

SPEAKER_06 42:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:16

And at 6 p.m., you can be eating that pizza, and everyone will be happy. So yeah, it's a great pizza. Yeah, I can't make that too many times. Um, so that's what I'm gonna do, and then I'm gonna be back with you next week for another episode in the interim. We always appreciate listeners tuning in to us here on Things Bakers Know.

SPEAKER_04 42:34

Yep. Yeah. Oh, yes, we sure do. Uh and remember to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you're listening to your podcast. Uh, also, if you're on SubSite, give us a subscribe there. Check us out there. We're sending out newsletters uh that align loosely to these to these episodes. Uh, and we're having a good time over there. So please check us out.

SPEAKER_05 42:58

I also, I mean, we do read the reviews. I always Oh, do we? Yeah. We read them through in our heads at while we can't sleep at night. Um, so leave us a review and also share episodes with friends that love to bake so they know about us.

SPEAKER_04 43:13

And in between writing reviews, people don't forget. Follow the recipe, especially when you're making croissants.

SPEAKER_05 43:21

Especially when you're making croissants.

SPEAKER_04 43:22

Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tamarkin.

SPEAKER_05 43:26

And me, Jessica Badalana.

SPEAKER_04 43:28

Rossi Anastapulo is our senior producer. Chad Shennai is our producer, and Marcus Bagala is our engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala.

SPEAKER_05 43:37

Thanks again to our colleague, Elizabeth Bertha Savage, for joining us on today's episode. You can learn from Elizabeth online or in person at our baking school. She's an amazing instructor. It would be a gift to yourself or to somebody you love to give them that on demand class or to send them here to Vermont, to the real life baking school. Right. If you can get in. If you can get in, hottest ticket in town. And you can find more about all of these classes at KingArthurbaking.com/slash baking dash school.

SPEAKER_04 44:05

Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast. This episode is brought to you by a new collaboration between King Arthur and Supernatural. Supernatural, of course, is the maker of America's brightest dye-free sprinkles. And we are putting those sprinkles in our new confetti cake mix and confetti sugar cookie mix. Let me tell you something. It was gorgeous. It was celebratory. It was like my birthday, but it wasn't even my birthday. Find both mixes at Target, Target.com, and of course at KingArthurBaking.com.